On 3 Dec 2009 at 11:03, ray_murphy aus wrote:

> RM: I think most people using relational databases would find it a bit hard to
> visualise all the connections once they start getting a bit complex, but there
> could be an easier way to test out some ideas  - simply write ordinary code in
> Visual Basic to tell the program where to go to retrieve the required
> information and where to add it. That's all MS Access is doing anyway -
> sending a long set of instructions in relatively plain English - so if we can
> begin thinking in those terms instead of staring at MS Access graphical
> representations of the instructions and trying to imagine what goes where - or
> wondering why we cannot get Access cannot do a particular thing.
>
> So if a prototype in VB can be made to work, then it's just a matter of
> translating the VB written instructions into MS Access mouse clicks etc., and
> if that doesn't work, just use the slower VB code in partnership with Access.

My idea was precisely the opposite.

First to do a prototype in MS Access or a similar general database program,
in order to establish which tables need to be used, and what links need to be
made between them.

THEN, when it's working, and a few people have tried it, write a program in
Visual Basic or some other language to enter, access and manipulate the data
in the tables in a stand-alone program that can be used without having to own
a proprietary one like MS Access.

I don't know enough about programming to do any of this.

I could, just possibly, have done it in Paradox 4.5 for DOS 15 years ago, but
that is obsolete and I've given up trying to keep up. That's why I was hoping
that people here could do it as a cooperative project.

> >A report
> > from that database gives more information on the source as follows:
> >
> > Schoeman, Karel. 1988. The Bloemfontein diary of Lieut W.J. St
> >               John. Cape Town: Human & Rosseau.
> >               ISBN: 0-7981-2243-9
> >                   William Jones St John was an officer of the
> >                   Royal Artillery stationed in Bloemfontein
> >                   during the time of the Orange River
> >                   Sovereignty. he had a lot of time on his
> >                   hands, and spent most of it hunting. Charles
> >                   and Fred Green were in town early in 1853, and
> >                   he hunted and played billiards with them, and
> >                   with Arthur and Henry Green as well, spending
> >                   a lot of time with Andreww Hudson Bain.
> >
> > In a relational database, it would be possible to include both in the same
> > report, because "Source" and "Event" would be two linked tables in the same
> > database. In a "flat file" database like Inmagic, there are no links between
> >  them except in  the researcher's mind. The Inmagic database I have created
> > is useful, but I'm trying to think of ways of making it more useful, and
> > that can be done using a relational database.
>
> RM: I can see no reason why anything like that cannot be done in VB,
> once the programmer knows what is required.

Of course.

At the moment, we're trying to establish and clarify what is required.

> > So I'm not looking for different ways of searching for records in
> > Inmagic --  "fred w3 green" works just fine, and there are plenty of
> > other ways of searching.
> >
> > What I'm looking for, and what I think would be useful to other
> > researchers as well, is a way of linking these different kinds of
> > information
> > in a relational database.
>
> RM: It boils down to explaining in very clear language what you want a
> *program* to do - not what you want a relational database to do. Some
> or all of the work might be done more easily ~outside~ of a relational
> database - or even outside of MS Access altogether. In some cases a
> sophisticated relational database would work 100 times faster than VB
> but hey, will genealogy people be complaining if they have to wait for
> 1000 milliseconds instead of waiting only 10 milliseconds for something to pop
> into view?

The program manipulates the database.

But before you decide what the program should do, you need to decide on the
database that you want it to manupulate.

I have three or four databases I use in Inmagic -- but they are flat file
databases and so unlinked. Inmagic doesn't do relational databases.

You can write a program in Visual Basic that does relational databases, and
you can create and manipulate relational databases with MS Access and several
other programs. But the database needs to be relational. If it isn't, I might
as well go on using Inmagic, and that would be of no use to other people,
unless they too bought InMagic, or its Windows version, DB Text.

> > What I think we ought to discuss is what kind of information should be
> > stored, and where and how should it be stored, to make it most useful to
> > most users.
>
> RM: From my experience with a similar project, I'd say that there should be no
> limit on what kind of information is eventually stored on anyone's program.
> Besides being a good idea, it completely eliminates arguments and resulting
> hold-ups.
>
> The question of where information should be stored depends on the program
> design, or whether there are both personal-use databases, as well as large
> industrial-strength databases. Smaller amounts of data could be stored in
> simple csv files, and large amounts in MS Access or separate csv files that
> are called when needed.

CSV files are flat-file type databases, and sequential access. They can be
used by very simple programs, but if you want to do anything with them it's
better to import them into a spreadsheet or a proper database program.

> > The examples I gave show (I hope) how such a database would be useful to:
> >
> > 1. Someone writing a biography of Fred Green
> > 2. Someone writing a history of the Green family
> > 3. Someone writing a history of the Orange River Sovereignty
> > 4. Someone writing a regimental history of the Royal Artillery
> >
> > and that's just a few possible uses.
>
> Another obvious one, is geneology people simply looking at such a printout for
> an individual and searching for clues in the text that fit in with other
> people or events.

Yes, indeed. You see that you have information on what your subject was doing
in one period, but not in another, so you ask what went in in the missing
period. You see that he had a lot of contact with someone in one period, but
it stopped -- what happened -- did they fall out, go separate ways, or did
one of them die?


--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: shayes@...
   Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
     Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
     Fax: 086-548-2525

--- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@...> wrote:
>
> On 3 Dec 2009 at 11:03, ray_murphy aus wrote:
>
>> RM: I think most people using relational databases would find it a bit
>> hard to
>> visualise all the connections once they start getting a bit complex, but
>> there
>> could be an easier way to test out some ideas  - simply write ordinary
>> code in
>> Visual Basic to tell the program where to go to retrieve the required
>> information and where to add it. That's all MS Access is doing anyway -
>> sending a long set of instructions in relatively plain English - so if we
>> can
>> begin thinking in those terms instead of staring at MS Access graphical
>> representations of the instructions and trying to imagine what goes
>> where - or
>> wondering why we cannot get Access cannot do a particular thing.
>>
>> So if a prototype in VB can be made to work, then it's just a matter of
>> translating the VB written instructions into MS Access mouse clicks etc.,
>> and
>> if that doesn't work, just use the slower VB code in partnership with
>> Access.
>
> My idea was precisely the opposite.
>
> First to do a prototype in MS Access or a similar general database
> program,
> in order to establish which tables need to be used, and what links need to
> be
> made between them.
>
> THEN, when it's working, and a few people have tried it, write a program
> in
> Visual Basic or some other language to enter, access and manipulate the
> data
> in the tables in a stand-alone program that can be used without having to
> own
> a proprietary one like MS Access.
>
> I don't know enough about programming to do any of this.
>
> I could, just possibly, have done it in Paradox 4.5 for DOS 15 years ago,
> but
> that is obsolete and I've given up trying to keep up. That's why I was
> hoping
> that people here could do it as a cooperative project.

RM: It would be quite easy for a skilled MS Access programmer to do
what you're looking for, but only if very clear instructions were given
beforehand. Most of those who could volunteer to help would be saying
that they were only available to write the code from clear instructions -
not *develop* a good program over a period of several weeks or many
months - so a working model in VB or anything else would make it
very clear to them if you said:-
"Do what that program is doing, but more efficiently"
It would remove nearly all of the inevitable string of
misunderstandings that programmers constantly face.

>> >A report
>> > from that database gives more information on the source as follows:
>> >
>> > Schoeman, Karel. 1988. The Bloemfontein diary of Lieut W.J. St
>> >               John. Cape Town: Human & Rosseau.
>> >               ISBN: 0-7981-2243-9
>> >                   William Jones St John was an officer of the
>> >                   Royal Artillery stationed in Bloemfontein
>> >                   during the time of the Orange River
>> >                   Sovereignty. he had a lot of time on his
>> >                   hands, and spent most of it hunting. Charles
>> >                   and Fred Green were in town early in 1853, and
>> >                   he hunted and played billiards with them, and
>> >                   with Arthur and Henry Green as well, spending
>> >                   a lot of time with Andreww Hudson Bain.
>> >
>> > In a relational database, it would be possible to include both in the
>> > same
>> > report, because "Source" and "Event" would be two linked tables in the
>> > same
>> > database. In a "flat file" database like Inmagic, there are no links
>> > between
>> >  them except in  the researcher's mind. The Inmagic database I have
>> > created
>> > is useful, but I'm trying to think of ways of making it more useful,
>> > and
>> > that can be done using a relational database.
>>
>> RM: I can see no reason why anything like that cannot be done in VB,
>> once the programmer knows what is required.
>
> Of course.
>
> At the moment, we're trying to establish and clarify what is required.
>
>> > So I'm not looking for different ways of searching for records in
>> > Inmagic --  "fred w3 green" works just fine, and there are plenty of
>> > other ways of searching.
>> >
>> > What I'm looking for, and what I think would be useful to other
>> > researchers as well, is a way of linking these different kinds of
>> > information
>> > in a relational database.
>>
>> RM: It boils down to explaining in very clear language what you want a
>> *program* to do - not what you want a relational database to do. Some
>> or all of the work might be done more easily ~outside~ of a relational
>> database - or even outside of MS Access altogether. In some cases a
>> sophisticated relational database would work 100 times faster than VB
>> but hey, will genealogy people be complaining if they have to wait for
>> 1000 milliseconds instead of waiting only 10 milliseconds for something
>> to pop into view?
>
> The program manipulates the database.
>
> But before you decide what the program should do, you need to decide on
> the database that you want it to manupulate.
>
> I have three or four databases I use in Inmagic -- but they are flat file
> databases and so unlinked. Inmagic doesn't do relational databases.

> You can write a program in Visual Basic that does relational databases,
> and you can create and manipulate relational databases with MS Access and
> several other programs. But the database needs to be relational. If it
> isn't, I
> might as well go on using Inmagic, and that would be of no use to other
> people,
> unless they too bought InMagic, or its Windows version, DB Text.

RM: It seems we might be talking about some pretty simple relationships
here.
What are we looking for - in plain English?
A printout of:
(1) All the subject's Events and accompanying text - (easy to do right now)
(2) All other Event paragraphs in the database that mention the
subject.

* Note(1): Sources could be automatically included at the end of the Event text,
so there would be no need to have them at other locations, with links provided
to locate and insert them. This would be easy to do, by searching every event in
the database for the selected keywords or ID numbers.

* Note (2): Global events could all be stored as just that - for an entity named
"GLOBAL" with its own ID number.

>> > What I think we ought to discuss is what kind of information should be
>> > stored, and where and how should it be stored, to make it most useful
>> > to most users.
>>
>> RM: From my experience with a similar project, I'd say that there should
>> be no
>> limit on what kind of information is eventually stored on anyone's
>> program.
>> Besides being a good idea, it completely eliminates arguments and
>> resulting
>> hold-ups.
>>
>> The question of where information should be stored depends on the program
>> design, or whether there are both personal-use databases, as well as
>> large
>> industrial-strength databases. Smaller amounts of data could be stored in
>> simple csv files, and large amounts in MS Access or separate csv files
>> that
>> are called when needed.
>
> CSV files are flat-file type databases, and sequential access. They can be
> used by very simple programs, but if you want to do anything with them
> it's better to import them into a spreadsheet or a proper database program.

RM: Only if a database is very big. I use a csv file for most of the prominent
people (to the western world) ever born in history, in a csv database of 30,000
people. Sure, it takes a minute or two to load, on a 300Mhz PC but once it's
loaded the data is recalled extremely fast and events of every imaginable
description are added in a flash.
Mind you, the event descriptions are small - unlike your longer diary entries
etc, but the average genealogy person is unlikely to be keying-in or pasting-in
mountains of text - so this is all 'do-able' in the very near future - and it's
when people have got something that actually works, they can suggest
improvements.

[....]

Ray

On 3 Dec 2009 at 19:11, ray_murphy aus wrote:

> --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@...> wrote:

> > My idea was precisely the opposite.
> >
> > First to do a prototype in MS Access or a similar general database
> > program,
> > in order to establish which tables need to be used, and what links need to
> > be made between them.
> >
> > THEN, when it's working, and a few people have tried it, write a program in
> > Visual Basic or some other language to enter, access and manipulate the data
> > in the tables in a stand-alone program that can be used without having to
> > own a proprietary one like MS Access.
> >
> > I don't know enough about programming to do any of this.
> >
> > I could, just possibly, have done it in Paradox 4.5 for DOS 15 years ago,
> > but that is obsolete and I've given up trying to keep up. That's why I was
> > hoping that people here could do it as a cooperative project.
>
> RM: It would be quite easy for a skilled MS Access programmer to do
> what you're looking for, but only if very clear instructions were given
> beforehand. Most of those who could volunteer to help would be saying
> that they were only available to write the code from clear instructions - not
> *develop* a good program over a period of several weeks or many months - so a
> working model in VB or anything else would make it very clear to them if you
> said:- "Do what that program is doing, but more efficiently" It would remove
> nearly all of the inevitable string of misunderstandings that programmers
> constantly face.

I repeat: I would prefer to do it the other way round -- develop a working
model in MS Access, THEN write a program in VB or some other language.

> > At the moment, we're trying to establish and clarify what is required.
> > The program manipulates the database.
> >
> > But before you decide what the program should do, you need to decide on the
> > database that you want it to manupulate.
> >
> > I have three or four databases I use in Inmagic -- but they are flat file
> > databases and so unlinked. Inmagic doesn't do relational databases.
>
> > You can write a program in Visual Basic that does relational databases, and
> > you can create and manipulate relational databases with MS Access and
> > several other programs. But the database needs to be relational. If it
> > isn't, I might as well go on using Inmagic, and that would be of no use to
> > other people, unless they too bought InMagic, or its Windows version, DB
> > Text.
>
> RM: It seems we might be talking about some pretty simple relationships
> here.
> What are we looking for - in plain English?
> A printout of:
> (1) All the subject's Events and accompanying text - (easy to do right now)
> (2) All other Event paragraphs in the database that mention the subject.

(3) All the event's subjects - ie all the people involved in the event.
(4) All events of a particular type, eith all the people involved in them
(5) Events relating to anyone who was a member of a particular group or
organisation.

And there are several other possibilities.

> * Note(1): Sources could be automatically included at the end of the Event
> text, so there would be no need to have them at other locations, with links
> provided to locate and insert them. This would be easy to do, by searching
> every event in the database for the selected keywords or ID numbers.
>
> * Note (2): Global events could all be stored as just that - for an entity
> named "GLOBAL" with its own ID number.

ALL events should be global, and EACH event should have its own ID number.

> > CSV files are flat-file type databases, and sequential access. They can be
> > used by very simple programs, but if you want to do anything with them it's
> > better to import them into a spreadsheet or a proper database program.
>
> RM: Only if a database is very big. I use a csv file for most of the prominent
> people (to the western world) ever born in history, in a csv database of
> 30,000 people. Sure, it takes a minute or two to load, on a 300Mhz PC but once
> it's loaded the data is recalled extremely fast and events of every imaginable
> description are added in a flash. Mind you, the event descriptions are small -
> unlike your longer diary entries etc, but the average genealogy person is
> unlikely to be keying-in or pasting-in mountains of text - so this is all
> 'do-able' in the very near future - and it's when people have got something
> that actually works, they can suggest improvements.

The Inmagic program I'm using now allows for the storage of almost unlimited
text in any field in any record (there is a limit, imposed by disk space). My
diary takes 40 Megs.

Relational databases have "Memo" fields or something similar for storing
large amounts of text.


--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: shayes@...
   Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
     Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
     Fax: 086-548-2525

--- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@...> wrote:
>
> On 3 Dec 2009 at 19:11, ray_murphy aus wrote:
>
> > --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@> wrote:
>
> > > My idea was precisely the opposite.
> > >
> > > First to do a prototype in MS Access or a similar general database
> > > program,
> > > in order to establish which tables need to be used, and what links need to
> > > be made between them.
> > >
> > > THEN, when it's working, and a few people have tried it, write a program
in
> > > Visual Basic or some other language to enter, access and manipulate the
data
> > > in the tables in a stand-alone program that can be used without having to
> > > own a proprietary one like MS Access.
> > >
> > > I don't know enough about programming to do any of this.
> > >
> > > I could, just possibly, have done it in Paradox 4.5 for DOS 15 years ago,
> > > but that is obsolete and I've given up trying to keep up. That's why I was
> > > hoping that people here could do it as a cooperative project.
> >
> > RM: It would be quite easy for a skilled MS Access programmer to do
> > what you're looking for, but only if very clear instructions were given
> > beforehand. Most of those who could volunteer to help would be saying
> > that they were only available to write the code from clear instructions -
not
> > *develop* a good program over a period of several weeks or many months - so
a
> > working model in VB or anything else would make it very clear to them if you
> > said:- "Do what that program is doing, but more efficiently" It would remove
> > nearly all of the inevitable string of misunderstandings that programmers
> > constantly face.
>
> I repeat: I would prefer to do it the other way round -- develop a working
> model in MS Access, THEN write a program in VB or some other language.

RM: I've already got that test VB program working and displaying all the
required events, sources and people, but as it turned out, it didn't need MS
Access or its complex linkage system at all.

The user-interface being used would be the same under any system,
and irrespective of what was happening in the background with tables,
linkages or arrays.

Of course this doesn't solve the problem of creating links between
Tables in MS Access if they are needed, but at least we can now run all sorts of
data through it and see what (if anything) is missing in the print-outs and
figure out what sort of links need to be created between Tables.

Ray

--- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, Paul Blair <pblair30@...> wrote:
>
> At 01:02 pm 8-03-2006, you wrote:
> >That question should generate a good set of choices.
> >
> >
> >AOL/AIM -- DDavis5310, Yahoo - - DickDavis60, MSN - - FDDavis53
> >
> >
> >What are the top five features that you'd like to see in an event database?

> There are 3 that spring to mind....and this is stating the bleeding
> obvious. Assuming that the two main stream of info are event and
> people, we need to be able to:
> 1. relate events to other events
> 2. relate people to other people
> 3. relate people to events, and events to people
>
> And, of course, dates/timelines have to be mixed in somehow.
>
> Then it gets harder...
>
> Paul
> Australia

RM: [3 years + 9 months later] - The meaning of those suggestions probably won't
become clear until some real-life testing is done with the event-program that
I've just got working or others like it. We'll need to come up with some
specific requests or ideas that might:
* solve existing problems,
* point to other possible paths to follow,
* reduce time manually assembling any of the data.

Ray

--- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "ray_murphy aus" <raymurph@...> wrote:
>
> --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@> wrote:
> >
> > On 3 Dec 2009 at 19:11, ray_murphy aus wrote:
> >
> > > --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@> wrote:
> >
[....]

> RM: I've already got that test VB program working and displaying all the
required events, sources and people, but as it turned out, it didn't need MS
Access or its complex linkage system at all.
>
> The user-interface being used would be the same under any system,
> and irrespective of what was happening in the background with tables,
> linkages or arrays.

[....]

[Update]

A much better version of the VB program has been uploaded to the Files section
of this group's website. It's called "GENEVENTS2"

It can be used to store literally anything that one could ever imagine because
users can add their own categories for Events, Facts or Relationships between
people.

Any date system can be used, but if full automatic sorting is required for
print-outs, then we need to use the YYYY,MM,DD format. If however some dates are
not in the correct format (and order in a printout) then they can be simply
re-positioned by Copy/Paste in the print-out panel.

If "Connected People" are required for event descriptions, then just click on
their names and they will be automatically inserted.

If Sources of information are required for events etc, then they simply need to
be entered with the event.

The program has a concise Help section in the Menu, so most questions will be
answered there.

This latest version should make it easy for anyone to create a database with a
SUITABLE 5.5 Gedcom and start seeing future potential or current weaknesses with
the system.

Ray

I've had quite a lot of computer problems recently, including a dying hard
disk. I won't go into the details -- if you really want to know you can read
them on my general blog here:

http://methodius.blogspot.com/2009/12/frustrating-computers.html

I managed to replace the dying disk drive with a new and bigger one, and
restore backed-up data to it, but lost most of my e-mail for the last three
months, from 1 September to 7 December, including messages in my "to-reply"
folder.

If you sent me something and were expecting a reply, and don't receive one,
please, if possible send a copy of your original message, or at least a
reminder.

There are also more details on the family history aspect of this on our
family history blog at:

http://hayesgreene.wordpress.com/2009/12/10/disk-crash-and-lost-e-mail/


--
Keep well,
Steve Hayes
Web:    http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/famhist1.htm
  	 http://hayesgreene.wordpress.com
E-mail: shayes@...

Just a reminder of the genealogical software discussion forum on YahooGroups

In is a good place for

* discussing programs you are using, and how to get the best out of them
* discussing programs you would like to see
* discussing improvements you would like to see in existing programs
* collaborating in developing programs that are useful for genealogists
* reviewing genealogy software
* announcing and commenting on new versions and programs
* anything else to do with computer programs used for genealogy

When discussing general software, such as word processors, spreadsheets,
databases etc., it is best to stick to the genealogical uses of those programs
-- but sharing ideas on how they can be used for genealogy is good.

Group Email Addresses
Post message:  gensoft@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe:  gensoft-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe:  gensoft-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
List owner:  gensoft-owner@yahoogroups.com

Group web site
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gensoft

Steve Hayes
Moderator of Genealogy Software Forum

Just a reminder of the genealogical software discussion forum on YahooGroups

In is a good place for

* discussing programs you are using, and how to get the best out of them
* discussing programs you would like to see
* discussing improvements you would like to see in existing programs
* collaborating in developing programs that are useful for genealogists
* reviewing genealogy software
* announcing and commenting on new versions and programs
* anything else to do with computer programs used for genealogy

When discussing general software, such as word processors, spreadsheets,
databases etc., it is best to stick to the genealogical uses of those programs
-- but sharing ideas on how they can be used for genealogy is good.

Group Email Addresses
Post message:  gensoft@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe:  gensoft-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe:  gensoft-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
List owner:  gensoft-owner@yahoogroups.com

Group web site
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gensoft

Steve Hayes
Moderator of Genealogy Software Forum

Just a reminder of the genealogical software discussion forum on YahooGroups

In is a good place for

* discussing programs you are using, and how to get the best out of them
* discussing programs you would like to see
* discussing improvements you would like to see in existing programs
* collaborating in developing programs that are useful for genealogists
* reviewing genealogy software
* announcing and commenting on new versions and programs
* anything else to do with computer programs used for genealogy

When discussing general software, such as word processors, spreadsheets,
databases etc., it is best to stick to the genealogical uses of those programs
-- but sharing ideas on how they can be used for genealogy is good.

Group Email Addresses
Post message:  gensoft@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe:  gensoft-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe:  gensoft-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
List owner:  gensoft-owner@yahoogroups.com

Group web site
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gensoft

Steve Hayes
Moderator of Genealogy Software Forum

Just a reminder of the genealogical software discussion forum on YahooGroups

In is a good place for

* discussing programs you are using, and how to get the best out of them
* discussing programs you would like to see
* discussing improvements you would like to see in existing programs
* collaborating in developing programs that are useful for genealogists
* reviewing genealogy software
* announcing and commenting on new versions and programs
* anything else to do with computer programs used for genealogy

When discussing general software, such as word processors, spreadsheets,
databases etc., it is best to stick to the genealogical uses of those programs
-- but sharing ideas on how they can be used for genealogy is good.

Group Email Addresses
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Just a reminder of the genealogical software discussion forum on YahooGroups

In is a good place for

* discussing programs you are using, and how to get the best out of them
* discussing programs you would like to see
* discussing improvements you would like to see in existing programs
* collaborating in developing programs that are useful for genealogists
* reviewing genealogy software
* announcing and commenting on new versions and programs
* anything else to do with computer programs used for genealogy

When discussing general software, such as word processors, spreadsheets,
databases etc., it is best to stick to the genealogical uses of those programs
-- but sharing ideas on how they can be used for genealogy is good.

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Steve Hayes
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Just a reminder of the genealogical software discussion forum on YahooGroups

In is a good place for

* discussing programs you are using, and how to get the best out of them
* discussing programs you would like to see
* discussing improvements you would like to see in existing programs
* collaborating in developing programs that are useful for genealogists
* reviewing genealogy software
* announcing and commenting on new versions and programs
* anything else to do with computer programs used for genealogy

When discussing general software, such as word processors, spreadsheets,
databases etc., it is best to stick to the genealogical uses of those programs
-- but sharing ideas on how they can be used for genealogy is good.

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Steve Hayes
Moderator of Genealogy Software Forum

On 10 Jun 2010 at 19:13, Paul Blair wrote:

> > > 0 @I5@ INDI
> > > 1 NAME Marion Lynette /Doyle/
> > > 2 SURN Doyle
> > > 2 GIVN Marion Lynette
> > > 2 _AKA /Lyn/ <<< I'm not sure the slashes should be there....
> > > 2 _MARNM Marion Lynette Blair
> > > 1 SEX F
> >
> > Yes, but what if there is more than one?

> Hi Steve

I hope you won't mind if I reply in the Gensoft forum, partly because it has
been so quiet and could do with a bit of discussion, and also because it
makes it easier for me to find and file it.

> Apologies for not replying earlier. Your incoming got trapped by my spam
> filter!

I'm not sure why that should be -my spam filter is set to trap a lot of HTML
mail, because HTML is used a lot by spammers, but mine is set to "text-only" -
  did I use a naughty word?

> In reply: I believe that, if there is more than one, the first one listed is
> the most current, and so on. It can get a bit complex - I have a couple, each
> of whom married 3 partners at separate times, including themselves - a
> marriage, a divorce, a remarriage. :-) She also sued him for restoration of
> conjugal rights...dunno what he was or wasn't doing!

Yes, I have one of those - she married four times, twice to the same bloke --
the first time in Sydney, when his previous wife was still alive, and the
second time in Adelaide, after she had died (but also after their children
were born). I'll attach a sample report.

The problem with PAF, however, is that it provides only one field for a
married name, so even if it exports it, it doesn't export all of them.

The program I still use for basic entry, the Family History System (FHS -
1993 DOS version), doesn't use a special field, but does produce address
reports and things like that under a woman's married name, if you want it to

> In case you've not guessed, I've moved from phpGedView (PGV)to The Next
> Generation (TNG). TNG is lighter weight, and lacks many nice things that I'd
> gotten used to in PGV. Let me know if you want to see what it looks like in
> action - I'll set up an account.

I was using it this morning - a site I use for my research, Axholme Ancestry,
keeps members contributions in TNG. If you'd like to have a look, it's at:

http://www.red1st.com/axholme/index.php

> An exciting time over your way? Our evening TV is all South African.

Yes indeed. The big kick-off is tomorrow.

Here's the report I was talking about and her 2nd and 3rd/4th husbands had
other marriages as well.

Family Group Report
For: Margaret Agnes Ann Green  (ID=  935)
Date Prepared: 10 Jun 2010

NAME: GREEN, Margaret Agnes Ann, Born 8 Dec 1835 in Nova Scotia,
   Died 26 Dec 1902 in Marrickville, NSW, AUS at age 67; FATHER:
   GREEN, William John (Goodall), Born 28 Aug 1790, Died 9 Apr
   1866 at age 75; MOTHER: GRAY, Margaret, Born 18 May 1795, Died
   11 May 1844? at age 48; Came to Cape Colony at age of 11 with
   father and brothers. Married William Wilson while still young
   and emigrated to Australia.

MARRIED 20 Aug 1879 in Adelaide, SA, to THWAITES, Walter William
   McLean, Born ??? 1841 in Sydney, NSW, Australia, Died 20 Mar
   1908 in Victoria, Australia at age 67; FATHER: THWAITES,
   Walter William, Born ??? 1814, Died Feb 1888 at age 74;
   MOTHER: MCLEAN, Jane

MARRIED 2 May 1871 in Sydney, NSW until 20 Aug 1879 in Adelaide,
   SA, to THWAITES, Walter William McLean, Born ??? 1841 in
   Sydney, NSW, Australia, Died 20 Mar 1908 in Victoria,
   Australia at age 67; FATHER: THWAITES, Walter William, Born
   ??? 1814, Died Feb 1888 at age 74; MOTHER: MCLEAN, Jane;
   Married first in Sydney, then again in Adelaide, because
   Sydney marriage was bigamous.

MARRIED 9 Jan 1858 in Gundary, NSW, to FRANCIS, Alfred John
   Dawson, Born ??? 1820? in Liverpool, England, Died 5 Mar 1864
   in Sydney, NSW at age 44; FATHER: FRANCIS, John; Witness: Dean
   Francis. He was a widower, she a widow, both of Bodalla.;
   Source: death date - family tree sent by Bob Cowley

MARRIED ??? 1851 in Cape Town (?), to WILSON, William, Born ???
   1823? in Camberwell, London, Died 21 Apr 1856 in Tuross River,
   NSW at age 33; According to W. Wilson's death certificate, he
   married Margaret Agnes Glasgow at the Cape of Good Hope at the
   age of 28.

CHILDREN:
  1. F  WILSON, Caroline Agnes, born 20 Apr 1854 in Sydney, NSW,
        died 7 Dec 1946 in North Havelock, NZ; Married 21 Jul
        1874 to BRATHWAITE, Robert Ashley Warre; 8 children
  2. F  WILSON, Emily Eleanora, born 23 Aug 1855 in New South
        Wales, died 18 Jun 1859 in Yarragee, NSW, AUS
  3. F  FRANCIS, Ada Anne Angeline Fairfax, born 10 Mar 1859 in
        Bodalla, NSW, AUS, died 9 Nov 1938 in Ashfield, NSW, AUS;
        Married 1 Aug 1894 to WHITE, William
  4. M  FRANCIS, Arthur Walpole, born 7 Jan 1861 in Moruya, NSW,
        died 8 May 1921 in Mariental Dist. SWA; Married 2 Nov
        1887 to DONOVAN, Ida Miranda Willoughby; 3 children
  5. F  FRANCIS, Edith Lilian, born 20 Aug 1862 in Yarragee, NSW,
        died 13 Oct 1926 in Melbourne, Vic. Aust.; Married 10 Oct
        1885 to BRIDGES, William Throsby; 7 children
  6. F  FRANCIS, Louisa, born 3 Nov 1864 in Queanbeyan, NSW, died
        18 Mar 1943 in Tenterfield, NSW; Married 24 Dec 1883 to
        COWLEY, Percy; 10 children
  7. F  THWAITES, Margaret Jane, born 20 Mar 1872 in Sydney, died
        ??? in Sydney
  8. M  THWAITES, Walter William Alfred, born 2 Jan 1874 in
        Sydney, NSW, Australia, died ???; Married 25 Jul 1895 to
        SAVAGE, Emily Victoria; 6 children
  9. M  THWAITES, Herbert Edward, born 28 Nov 1875 in Australia,
        died 28 Jan 1937 in Boksburg; Married to BRITTAIN, Motty
        Adeline; 2 children
10. F  THWAITES, Elizabeth, born ??? 1876, died ???


--
Keep well,
Steve Hayes
Web:    http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/famhist1.htm
  	 http://hayesgreene.wordpress.com
E-mail: shayes@...

Just a reminder of the genealogical software discussion forum on YahooGroups

In is a good place for

* discussing programs you are using, and how to get the best out of them
* discussing programs you would like to see
* discussing improvements you would like to see in existing programs
* collaborating in developing programs that are useful for genealogists
* reviewing genealogy software
* announcing and commenting on new versions and programs
* anything else to do with computer programs used for genealogy

When discussing general software, such as word processors, spreadsheets,
databases etc., it is best to stick to the genealogical uses of those programs
-- but sharing ideas on how they can be used for genealogy is good.

Group Email Addresses
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Steve Hayes
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A group has started to build a better GEDCOM, and they are using a wikil to
collect ideas.

I've blogged about it here:

http://hayesgreene.blogspot.com/2010/11/build-better-gedcom.html


--
Keep well,
Steve Hayes
Web:    http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/famhist1.htm
  	 http://hayesgreene.wordpress.com
E-mail: shayes@...

Just a reminder of the genealogical software discussion forum on YahooGroups

In is a good place for

* discussing programs you are using, and how to get the best out of them
* discussing programs you would like to see
* discussing improvements you would like to see in existing programs
* collaborating in developing programs that are useful for genealogists
* reviewing genealogy software
* announcing and commenting on new versions and programs
* anything else to do with computer programs used for genealogy

When discussing general software, such as word processors, spreadsheets,
databases etc., it is best to stick to the genealogical uses of those programs
-- but sharing ideas on how they can be used for genealogy is good.

Group Email Addresses
Post message:  gensoft@yahoogroups.com
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Steve Hayes
Moderator of Genealogy Software Forum

Here's a site for genealogy software reviews:

http://www.gensoftreviews.com/index.php

You can write your own reciews, read other people's reviews, and see what
software is available.


--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: shayes@...
   Web: http://hayesstw.tumblr.com/  (follow me on Tumblr)
     Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
     Fax: 086-548-2525

Just a reminder of the genealogical software discussion forum on YahooGroups

In is a good place for

* discussing programs you are using, and how to get the best out of them
* discussing programs you would like to see
* discussing improvements you would like to see in existing programs
* collaborating in developing programs that are useful for genealogists
* reviewing genealogy software
* announcing and commenting on new versions and programs
* anything else to do with computer programs used for genealogy

When discussing general software, such as word processors, spreadsheets,
databases etc., it is best to stick to the genealogical uses of those programs
-- but sharing ideas on how they can be used for genealogy is good.

Group Email Addresses
Post message:  gensoft@yahoogroups.com
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Steve Hayes
Moderator of Genealogy Software Forum

Just a reminder of the genealogical software discussion forum on YahooGroups

In is a good place for

* discussing programs you are using, and how to get the best out of them
* discussing programs you would like to see
* discussing improvements you would like to see in existing programs
* collaborating in developing programs that are useful for genealogists
* reviewing genealogy software
* announcing and commenting on new versions and programs
* anything else to do with computer programs used for genealogy

When discussing general software, such as word processors, spreadsheets,
databases etc., it is best to stick to the genealogical uses of those programs
-- but sharing ideas on how they can be used for genealogy is good.

Group Email Addresses
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Steve Hayes
Moderator of Genealogy Software Forum

It seems that most people dislike the new FamilySearch, and find it a
distinct disimprovement on the old version, at least according to a poll I
posted on my blog here:

http://hayesgreene.blogspot.com/2011/02/new-familysearch.html

when I commented on its lack of features.

One of the main complaints is the apparent lack of Gedcom downloads, and the
need to retype all information found on the site.

There has been some discussion of this over on the soc.genealogy.computing
newsgroup, and Ian Goddard has been talking of developing an application to
capture the data in xml format.

I wondered if anyone else had any ideas on the subject.


--
Keep well,
Steve Hayes
Web:    http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/famhist1.htm
  	 http://hayesgreene.wordpress.com
E-mail: shayes@...

Just a reminder of the genealogical software discussion forum on YahooGroups

In is a good place for

* discussing programs you are using, and how to get the best out of them
* discussing programs you would like to see
* discussing improvements you would like to see in existing programs
* collaborating in developing programs that are useful for genealogists
* reviewing genealogy software
* announcing and commenting on new versions and programs
* anything else to do with computer programs used for genealogy

When discussing general software, such as word processors, spreadsheets,
databases etc., it is best to stick to the genealogical uses of those programs
-- but sharing ideas on how they can be used for genealogy is good.

Group Email Addresses
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Steve Hayes
Moderator of Genealogy Software Forum

The following message forwarded from soc.genealogy.computing:

The new Familysearch "experience" (always a warning term as far as
I'm concerned) lacks Gedcom download and according to an email I
received from their support it's not going to be implemented.  It
looks as if the original site will be discontinued and when it is
there'll be no download facility at all.  Indeed the download has
been badly broken for some weeks in that it will only prepare a few
records at a time without throwing an error.

Whilst Gedcom is, IMV, a less than perfect means of transmitting
genealogical data it is effective at doing the heavy lifting of data
capture from IGI extracts into just about all genealogical S/W and
the demise of this download will leave a gap.

AFAICS the only way of getting data out of the website will be by
cutting and pasting but to get data into an existing package will
require the various display formats to be parsed.  I'm considering
writing a quick and dirty program to support this.  All it will do
will be to reformat the data as XML.  As I use Gramps which has an
XML option for export & import I'll use XSLT to get the initial
format into the Gramps format.  I'll leave the task of writing a
stylesheet to reformat into Gedcom to anyone who wants to take it
on.

On a quick inspection of the data, however, it looks as if some
reference numbers will need to be added for various entities in any
single record.  From memory, for instance, a baptism will have a
segment for the subject which will include a unique reference number
and also a reference number cross-referencing it to the family.
There will be a separate segment for the family which bears this
cross-reference.  The parents, if available, will each have their
own reference number. Gramps has a similar requirement.  It also has
a reference number for the place.  The application will need to add
these numbers to the XML. The numbers can be UUIDs (GUIDs if you
speak Microsoft).

The question which arises is how many UUIDs should be provided.
Here's an example baptism record of my 3xggmother:

Name:  Mary Collier
Gender:  Female
Baptism/Christening Date:  27 Dec 1760
Baptism/Christening Place:  ALMONDBURY,YORK,ENGLAND
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name:  George Collier
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name:
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number:  P01712-1
System Origin:  England-ODM
Source Film Number:  230649
Reference Number:

I think I need UUIDs for:
The subject, Mary
Place of baptism
Place of birth (missing in this instance but should be provided for)
Family
Father
Father's birthplace
Mother
Mother's birthplace
The event as a whole - although the record format makes provision for a
record number this clearly can't be relied on to be present.

Is this sufficient or should we provide for the indexing information
following the mother?

  From a practical point of view I'd probably populate all the UUIDs
& leave the downstream S/W to discard those for which the elements
are blank.


Here's Mary's marriage, somewhat screwed up in transcription:

Groom's Name:  John Gothard
Groom's Birth Date:
Groom's Birthplace:
Groom's Age:
Bride's Name:  Mary ...
Bride's Birth Date:
Bride's Birthplace:
Bride's Age:
Marriage Date:  1777
Marriage Place:  Kirkburton, York, England
Groom's Father's Name:
Groom's Mother's Name:
Bride's Father's Name:
Bride's Mother's Name:
Groom's Race:
Groom's Marital Status:
Groom's Previous Wife's Name:
Bride's Race:
Bride's Marital Status:
Bride's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number:  M00972-3
System Origin:  England-VR
Source Film Number:  990701
Reference Number:  2:3JKN1H0

My suggested UUIDs are:
New family
Place of marriage
Groom
Groom's parent family
Groom's father
Groom's mother
Groom's birthplace
Family for groom's previous marriage
Groom's previous spouse
ditto for bride
Event

Again, any further ideas?


Finally, here's her burial:

Name:  Mary Goddard
Gender:  Female
Burial Date:  07 Aug 1799
Burial Place:  Almondbury, York, England
Death Date:
Death Place:
Age:
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Occupation:
Race:
Marital Status:  Married
Spouse's Name:  John Goddard
Father's Name:
Father's Birthplace:
Mother's Name:
Mother's Birthplace:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number:  I02050-0
System Origin:  England-EASy
Source Film Number:  20043
Reference Number:  yrs 1797-1804

Suggested UUIDS:
Subject
Place of burial
Place of death
Marriage amily
Spouse's name
Parental family
Father
Father's birthplace
Mother
Mother's birthplace
Event

Again, any other ideas?


Ian

The Hotmail address is my spam-bin.  Real mail address is iang
at austonley org uk

Ian Goddard <goddai01@...>
====
End of forwarded message




--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: shayes@...
   Web: http://hayesstw.tumblr.com/  (follow me on Tumblr)
     Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
     Fax: 086-548-2525

Here's a blogger who proposes a link between your genealogy program and
social media:

=== begin quote ===
Blogs

By selecting a photo, some information in a database, or a research project
and clicking a “Quick Post” link, a blog post would be assembled ready for
you to edit and post to your blog. All without leaving GenPerfect.
=== end quote ===

See it all at:

http://www.thinkgenealogy.com/2011/03/20/genperfect-3/

Comments?


--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: shayes@...
Web: http://hayesstw.tumblr.com/  (follow me on Tumblr)
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
     Fax: 086-548-2525

Just a reminder of the genealogical software discussion forum on YahooGroups

In is a good place for

* discussing programs you are using, and how to get the best out of them
* discussing programs you would like to see
* discussing improvements you would like to see in existing programs
* collaborating in developing programs that are useful for genealogists
* reviewing genealogy software
* announcing and commenting on new versions and programs
* anything else to do with computer programs used for genealogy

When discussing general software, such as word processors, spreadsheets,
databases etc., it is best to stick to the genealogical uses of those programs
-- but sharing ideas on how they can be used for genealogy is good.

Group Email Addresses
Post message:  gensoft@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe:  gensoft-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe:  gensoft-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
List owner:  gensoft-owner@yahoogroups.com

Group web site
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gensoft

Steve Hayes
Moderator of Genealogy Software Forum

Just a reminder of the genealogical software discussion forum on YahooGroups

In is a good place for

* discussing programs you are using, and how to get the best out of them
* discussing programs you would like to see
* discussing improvements you would like to see in existing programs
* collaborating in developing programs that are useful for genealogists
* reviewing genealogy software
* announcing and commenting on new versions and programs
* anything else to do with computer programs used for genealogy

When discussing general software, such as word processors, spreadsheets,
databases etc., it is best to stick to the genealogical uses of those programs
-- but sharing ideas on how they can be used for genealogy is good.

Group Email Addresses
Post message:  gensoft@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe:  gensoft-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe:  gensoft-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
List owner:  gensoft-owner@yahoogroups.com

Group web site
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Steve Hayes
Moderator of Genealogy Software Forum

--- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@...> wrote:
> And one of the things I would like is an event-based database that can pull
> in "Person" information from your main genealogy database (to save re-typing,
> but also allow you to add other persons.

This has come up again in the soc.genealogy.computing newsgroup, and I still
feel the need for such software, and have yet to find it. We are spoiled for
choice in lineage-linked programs, but I don't know of any event-based programs
that will do what I want.

I've tried to summarise the needs in a blog post at:

http://su.pr/2vQjRv

and the sample database tables are available for download from the files section
of this forum.

I'm reopening this subject because I really would like to see (and be able to
use) such a program before I die.

What about The Master Genealogist (TMG)?  Of course, it hasn't been updated
in years. No one's quite sure what's going on with it. It has been much
loved by those who want an event-based program although it's got quite a
learning curve and newbies generally leave it for something that's not so
difficult to use.

There must not be enough of a demand for event-based software.

Sherry


-----Original Message-----
From: gensoft@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gensoft@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Methodius
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 12:08 AM
To: gensoft@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [gensoft] Event-based software redux.

--- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@...> wrote:
> And one of the things I would like is an event-based database that can
pull
> in "Person" information from your main genealogy database (to save
re-typing,
> but also allow you to add other persons.

This has come up again in the soc.genealogy.computing newsgroup, and I still
feel the need for such software, and have yet to find it. We are spoiled for
choice in lineage-linked programs, but I don't know of any event-based
programs that will do what I want.

I've tried to summarise the needs in a blog post at:

http://su.pr/2vQjRv

and the sample database tables are available for download from the files
section of this forum.

I'm reopening this subject because I really would like to see (and be able
to use) such a program before I die.

On 26 May 2011 at 6:58, Sherry wrote:

> What about The Master Genealogist (TMG)?  Of course, it hasn't been updated in
> years. No one's quite sure what's going on with it. It has been much loved by
> those who want an event-based program although it's got quite a learning curve
> and newbies generally leave it for something that's not so difficult to use.

I tried it a few times but couldn't get it to work -- it kept crashing my
computer.

But that's not the main problem.

The main problem is that it is still primarily a lineage linked genealogy
program, and isn't really designed to cope with non-family relationships.


--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: shayes@...
Web: http://hayesstw.tumblr.com/  (follow me on Tumblr)
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
     Fax: 086-548-2525

Just a reminder of the genealogical software discussion forum on YahooGroups

In is a good place for

* discussing programs you are using, and how to get the best out of them
* discussing programs you would like to see
* discussing improvements you would like to see in existing programs
* collaborating in developing programs that are useful for genealogists
* reviewing genealogy software
* announcing and commenting on new versions and programs
* anything else to do with computer programs used for genealogy

When discussing general software, such as word processors, spreadsheets,
databases etc., it is best to stick to the genealogical uses of those programs
-- but sharing ideas on how they can be used for genealogy is good.

Group Email Addresses
Post message:  gensoft@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe:  gensoft-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe:  gensoft-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
List owner:  gensoft-owner@yahoogroups.com

Group web site
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Steve Hayes
Moderator of Genealogy Software Forum