--- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@...> wrote:
>
[.....]
> OK, I downloaded it and had a look at it, but didn't manage to get it to
> work.
>
> It seemed to make a hash of the GEDCOM file, mixing up people and sources.
>
> When I tried to save it, it reported "subscript out of range"

RM: Thanks. It sounds like we are using gedcoms that are formatted differently.
I have no idea how many different formats are in use, so I wonder if you would
be able to email or upload or point to the gedcom style you used?

Ray

On 30 Nov 2009 at 10:28, ray_murphy aus wrote:


> As you can see, I'm actually interested in the recording of events but I
still
> cannot visualise many situations where event information could be used for
> genealogy or how it can be handled easily by the average user - so it looks
> like we need some examples to motivate us.

Here is such an example -- a report from the database whose structure (field
list) I posted a few messages back:


             Events relating to Fred Green             Page No 1

           Search strategy:   09/12/01 09:56:33
                              GET KE/EV/EN/NO/PE/EP: fred w3 green


   4-Apr-1829 Canada, Quebec, Montreal

              BIRTH OF FRED GREEN, MONTREAL
              Frederick Thomas, son of William Green, Deputy Assistant
              Commissary General and of Margaret Gray his wife was born
              the fourth day of April 1829 and baptizen o n the
              twenty-ninth day of may following by me.... the sponsors
              are William Goodall and Eliza Glasgoe, natural cousins to
              the infant, and Deputy Assistant Commissary General
              Samuel Tubby
                    People: 1. Green, Fred [144]
                            2. Green, William John [140]
                            3. Gray, Margaret [141]
                            4. Goodall, William [10032]
                            5. Glasgow, Eliza
                            6. Tubby, Samuel
                   Sources: 1. Church Register, Montreal

             Events relating to Fred Green             Page No 2

   4-Jan-1853 Orange River Sovereignty, Bloemfontein

              CHARLES & FRED GREEN ARRIVED IN BLOEMFONTEIN FROM TRIP TO
              LAKE NGAMI
              "Charles and Fred Green, brothers of the Resident, came
              down from the interior about the 3rd or 4th of the month.
              They had been unfortunate in their trip, had neenm to the
              lake and some 120 miles to the westward of it, and just
              as they had got into the midst of the elephants the fly
              (tsetse) got among their horses and killed some 34 horses
              and 50 head of cattle. They only shot six or eight
              elephants. They also lost 50 head of cattle to the Boors,
              who took them from sechele where they had left them for
              their return journey. Sechele, chief of the Baquainas, a
              tribe who live some 450 miles from here, also came down
              with the Greens to lodge a complaint against the Trans
              Vaal Boors for having attacked him without cause, killed
              many of his people and taken some two hundred women and
              nearly a thousand children into slavery. A young Edwards,
              son of a missionary of the same anme, came down with him
              as interpreter. Sechele is one of the finest blacks I
              ever saw, has a fine open coutnenance, dresses very
              neatly and clean. Although he cannot speak English he
              reads the Bible in his own language and is I believe a
              good Christian. We have had great fun lately, the Greens
              being very jolly fellows, particularly Fred Green. We
              have had reunions of an evening at Craws', screeching and
              howling to the masthead, and also some very good songs
              and music. Charles Green, finding that Sechele was not
              likely to get much done for him in the Colony, determined
              to take him home. He accordingly opened a subscription
              for the purpose, and very soon collected œ [blank] even
              in this small town, as all the reports from beyond the
              Vaal confirm us in the belief that slavery is carried on
              openly by the Boors there."
                    People: 1. Green, Fred [140]
                            2. Green, Charles [502]
                            3. Sechele
                            4. Edwards, Samuel Howard
                   Sources: 1. St John Diary, p. 45
                            2. cf Sillery 1954, "Sechele", p 116f

             Events relating to Fred Green             Page No 3

  12-Feb-1853 Orange River Sovereignty, Bloemfontein

              CHARLES & FRED GREEN DINE IN OFFICERS' MESS WITH ST JOHN.
              AFTERWARDS MEET HENRY AND ARTHUR GREEN IN THE CLUB. HENRY
              IS THE RESIDENT, ARTHUR GREEN IN THE COMMISSARIAT AND
              FRED IS DESCRIBED AS SURVEYOR.
              "Played one game of billiards with Charles Green, who
              dined wuith me at mess. Present, Major Kyle, Captain
              Bates, Howard and Rowland, all 45th, Cameron, Staff
              Assistant Surgeon, and myself, the members of the mess,
              and Charles and Fred Green and Dawson, late 45th, guest.
              In the evening Lowen the magistrate and De Smidt of the
              Comissariat came up. About 9 Charles Green and I
              adjourned to the club, where we met his brothers Henry
              Green, the Resident, and Arthur Green in the
              Commissariat, and also Fred the surveyor. I played one
              game with Charles Green and adjourned to my house" (St
              John diary, p, 52). This is the last mention of Charles
              Green in St John's diary  -- perhaps he accompanied
              Sechele back  home, as St John had described earlier, or
              perhaps went on to Cape Town, as described by Tabler
              (1973:45).
                    People: 1. Green, Fred [144]
                            2. Green, Charles [502]
                            3. Green, Henry [480]
                            4. Green, Arthur [936]
                            5. Bates, Captain Robert
                            6. Kyle, Major Hallam d'Arcy
                   Sources: 1. St John Diary, p. 52

   2-Mar-1853 Orange River Sovereignty, Bloemfontein

              FRED GREEN GOES ON HUNTING EXPEDITION FROM BLOEMFONTEIN
              WITH W. ST JOHN, JOHANNES DE SMIDT & WILLIAM DAWSON.
              Fred Green set out with William St John, an officer of
              the Royal Artillery, from Bloemfontein to A.H. Bain's
              farm at Tempe, where they had dinner, and on to
              Kwaggafontein, from where they set out on a fortnight's
              hunting expedition.
                    People: 1. Green, Fred
                            2. St John, William Jones
                            3. Dawson, William
                            4. de Smidt, Johannes
                   Sources: 1. St John, Diary, p. 54

             Events relating to Fred Green             Page No 4

  17-Mar-1853 Orange River Sovereignty, Bloemfontein

              FRED GREEN & CO RETURN TO BLOEMFONTEIN FROM HUNTING
              EXPEDITION
                    People: 1. Green, Fred
                            2. St John, William Jones
                            3. Dawson, William
                            4. de Smidt, Johannes
                   Sources: 1. St John, Diary, p. 63

  22-Mar-1853 Orange River Sovereignty, Bloemfontein

              FRED GREEN, ST JOHN, DICK ORPEN HAVE DINNER WITH A.H.
              BAIN
                    People: 1. Green, Fred
                            2. St John, William Jones
                            3. Bain, Andrew Hudson
                            4. Orpen, Richard John Newenham
                   Sources: 1. St John Diary, p. 64

  31-May-1853 Orange River Sovereignty, Bloemfontein

              FRED GREEN DINED WITH WILLIAM ST JOHN IN BLOEMFONTEIN
              MESS
              Last mention of Fred Green in St John's diary. On 12 July
              St John went on a trip to Harrismith, and returned on 13
              August, when the diary ends. Fred Green may have left
              Bloemfontein by then.
                    People: 1. Green, Fred
                   Sources: 1. St John Diary, p. 79

  21-Jun-1857 Damaraland

              F. GREEN ATTENDED DUTCH SERVICE
              Green's Hereros attended morning service conducted by
              Hahn, and in the afternoon came with young Bonfield and
              two wagon drivers to the Dutch service.
                    People: 1. Green, Fred [144]
                   Sources: 1. Hahn's diary

Now that is a flat file database, not relational, so the names of the people
assocated with each event were typed separately into each record. That is the
kind of duplication that a relational database can avoid.

The list of events was selected by the search argument "fred w3 green", which
means any record that had "fred" within three words of "green".

I could also select all records referring to Bloemfontein, whether Fred Green
was involved or not.

--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: shayes@...
   Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
     Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
     Fax: 086-548-2525

On 1 Dec 2009 at 8:00, ray_murphy aus wrote:

> --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@...> wrote:
> >
> [.....]
> > OK, I downloaded it and had a look at it, but didn't manage to get it to
> > work.
> >
> > It seemed to make a hash of the GEDCOM file, mixing up people and sources.
> >
> > When I tried to save it, it reported "subscript out of range"
>
> RM: Thanks. It sounds like we are using gedcoms that are formatted
> differently. I have no idea how many different formats are in use, so I wonder
> if you would be able to email or upload or point to the gedcom style you used?

I used GEDCOM 5.5, but could try with 4.0.


--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: shayes@...
   Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
     Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
     Fax: 086-548-2525

--- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@...> wrote:
>
> On 1 Dec 2009 at 8:00, ray_murphy aus wrote:
>
> > --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@> wrote:
> > >
> > [.....]
> > > OK, I downloaded it and had a look at it, but didn't manage to get it to
> > > work.
> > >
> > > It seemed to make a hash of the GEDCOM file, mixing up people and sources.
> > >
> > > When I tried to save it, it reported "subscript out of range"
> >
> > RM: Thanks. It sounds like we are using gedcoms that are formatted
> > differently. I have no idea how many different formats are in use, so I
wonder
> > if you would be able to email or upload or point to the gedcom style you
used?
>
> I used GEDCOM 5.5, but could try with 4.0.

RM: I've just checked and see that it's 5.5 I'm using.
The program merely grabs all names that are formatted like this:

1 NAME Arthur /HARRISON/

and (for now) ignores all else in the gedcom.

Ray

Just a reminder of the genealogical software discussion forum on YahooGroups

In is a good place for

* discussing programs you are using, and how to get the best out of them
* discussing programs you would like to see
* discussing improvements you would like to see in existing programs
* collaborating in developing programs that are useful for genealogists
* reviewing genealogy software
* announcing and commenting on new versions and programs
* anything else to do with computer programs used for genealogy

When discussing general software, such as word processors, spreadsheets,
databases etc., it is best to stick to the genealogical uses of those programs
-- but sharing ideas on how they can be used for genealogy is good.

Group Email Addresses
Post message:  gensoft@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe:  gensoft-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe:  gensoft-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
List owner:  gensoft-owner@yahoogroups.com

Group web site
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gensoft

Steve Hayes
Moderator of Genealogy Software Forum

--- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@...> wrote:
>
> On 30 Nov 2009 at 10:28, ray_murphy aus wrote:

>>[....] It looks like we need some examples to motivate us.

>Here is such an example -- a report from the database whose >structure (field
list) I posted a few messages back:

[Snip]


  17-Mar-1853 Orange River Sovereignty, Bloemfontein

              FRED GREEN & CO RETURN TO BLOEMFONTEIN FROM HUNTING
              EXPEDITION
                    People: 1. Green, Fred
                            2. St John, William Jones
                            3. Dawson, William
                            4. de Smidt, Johannes
                   Sources: 1. St John, Diary, p. 63

  22-Mar-1853 Orange River Sovereignty, Bloemfontein

              FRED GREEN, ST JOHN, DICK ORPEN HAVE DINNER WITH A.H.
              BAIN
                    People: 1. Green, Fred
                            2. St John, William Jones
                            3. Bain, Andrew Hudson
                            4. Orpen, Richard John Newenham
                   Sources: 1. St John Diary, p. 64

  31-May-1853 Orange River Sovereignty, Bloemfontein

              FRED GREEN DINED WITH WILLIAM ST JOHN IN BLOEMFONTEIN
              MESS
              Last mention of Fred Green in St John's diary. On 12 July
              St John went on a trip to Harrismith, and returned on 13
              August, when the diary ends. Fred Green may have left
              Bloemfontein by then.
                    People: 1. Green, Fred
                   Sources: 1. St John Diary, p. 79

  21-Jun-1857 Damaraland

              F. GREEN ATTENDED DUTCH SERVICE
              Green's Hereros attended morning service conducted by
              Hahn, and in the afternoon came with young Bonfield and
              two wagon drivers to the Dutch service.
                    People: 1. Green, Fred [144]
                   Sources: 1. Hahn's diary

>Now that is a flat file database, not relational, so the names of the
>people assocated with each event were typed separately into each >record. That
is the kind of duplication that a relational database >can avoid.

RM: That duplication could only be avoided if your MS Access database
was expanded to work like a genealogy program and include file cards
for all the people who are mentioned in the Event-text.
It would also require the manual creation of relationships with the a huge array
of yet-to-be imagined relationship names - unless they were all just called
"Event Person" or nothing at all.

So if Barack Obama II was at a party and you wanted him mentioned,
he would need a file card, and your list of interesting people would look the
same, but with file card numbers.

                    People: 1. Green, Fred
                            2. Barack Obama II [No. 936]
                            3. Bain, Andrew Hudson [No.1137]
                            4. Orpen, Richard John Newenham [No 1489]
                   Sources: 1. St John Diary, p. 64

>The list of events was selected by the search argument "fred w3 >green", which
means any record that had "fred" within three words of >"green".

RM: There is a risk at the moment of the wrong names being be used if
you rely on the MS Access search-code to find people, so currently all
of the output needs to be proof-read. If however new file cards were made as
needed when Event-text was being entered, and you nominated the relationship
between the subject and that person then there would be less risk of errors, but
errors couldn't be eliminated entirely unless you specified manually who you
wanted to be included, and that would be best done by clicking on the name in a
Listbox.

So if you want error free printouts, it seems that the only way to go,
to record events with extra descriptive text, is to:
(1) Click on the subject's name in a Listbox
(2) Click on the Event name from a Listbox (or type in a unique one)
(3) Type in the date (or have an error-free date selection system)
(4) Paste-in or type the text for the Event.
(5) Click "Add Person" (for those mentioned in the text) and then click on their
name from a Listbox - for each one of them.
(6) Click on "Print all Events for " --
(7) Click on the required person's name in the Name Listbox.

The first 3 above are already in this little program that I've just written, and
the next 4 could be added.

A relational database cannot find relationships correctly all the time
unless the relationships are set in concrete, and the only way that could be
done (besides creating file cards for every person you want mentioned) is to
append the Event-text (from someone's diary etc) with that person's unique file
card number in the database.

For example, instead of the diary text reading:
"Commodore Smith attended the gathering ..."
It could be changed to:
"Commodore Smith [1186] attended the gathering ..."
then when the printout is produced, you have the [1186] automatically
omitted.

The relational database wouldn't care if Commodore Smith was
recorded as "Commodore P.J. Smith, RAN". It only needs his number
to know that he needs to be mentioned as a person of interest at an event.

I suppose strictly speaking there *IS* no (personal) relationship for a
relational database to find on your behalf. The program merely wants
to know "Do we print this person or not - as a person worth mentioning every
time the name pops up in Event-text?" If it sees a number in the Event-text in
brackets, then it knows that the preceding name needs to be added at the end of
the Event-text. The hard part for the program could be figuring out where the
name actually began in the text if it wasn't identical to the file card name.

>I could also select all records referring to Bloemfontein, whether >Fred Green
was involved or not.

RM: If Bloemfontein was given a file card and a number, and that number was seen
in any of the Event-text during the 'printout-search' then it could print
everything for that particular event, but you would need to manually delete all
the irrelevant text before and after the mention of Bloemfontein.

Ray

On 1 Dec 2009 at 16:02, ray_murphy aus wrote:

> --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@...> wrote:
> >
> > On 30 Nov 2009 at 10:28, ray_murphy aus wrote:
>
> >>[....] It looks like we need some examples to motivate us.
>
> >Here is such an example -- a report from the database whose >structure (field
> >list) I posted a few messages back:
>
> [Snip]
>
>
>  17-Mar-1853 Orange River Sovereignty, Bloemfontein
>
>              FRED GREEN & CO RETURN TO BLOEMFONTEIN FROM HUNTING
>              EXPEDITION
>                    People: 1. Green, Fred
>                            2. St John, William Jones
>                            3. Dawson, William
>                            4. de Smidt, Johannes
>                   Sources: 1. St John, Diary, p. 63
>
>  22-Mar-1853 Orange River Sovereignty, Bloemfontein
>
>              FRED GREEN, ST JOHN, DICK ORPEN HAVE DINNER WITH A.H.
>              BAIN
>                    People: 1. Green, Fred
>                            2. St John, William Jones
>                            3. Bain, Andrew Hudson
>                            4. Orpen, Richard John Newenham
>                   Sources: 1. St John Diary, p. 64
>
>  31-May-1853 Orange River Sovereignty, Bloemfontein
>
>              FRED GREEN DINED WITH WILLIAM ST JOHN IN BLOEMFONTEIN
>              MESS
>              Last mention of Fred Green in St John's diary. On 12 July
>              St John went on a trip to Harrismith, and returned on 13
>              August, when the diary ends. Fred Green may have left
>              Bloemfontein by then.
>                    People: 1. Green, Fred
>                   Sources: 1. St John Diary, p. 79
>
> >Now that is a flat file database, not relational, so the names of the
> >people assocated with each event were typed separately into each >record.
> >That is the kind of duplication that a relational database >can avoid.
>
> RM: That duplication could only be avoided if your MS Access database
> was expanded to work like a genealogy program and include file cards
> for all the people who are mentioned in the Event-text.

I still have no idea what you mean by a "file card". None of my books on MS
Access mention such a thing, and none of the experts know what it means
either.

Byt if you check the diagram I posted at

http://hayesgreene.wordpress.com/2009/11/26/370/

you can see the main tables and the linking tables

> It would also require the manual creation of relationships with the a huge
> array of yet-to-be imagined relationship names - unless they were all just
> called "Event Person" or nothing at all.

The person-event link table should show the role of the person at the event,
which could be in a lookup table, which the user could edit and add to.

> So if Barack Obama II was at a party and you wanted him mentioned,
> he would need a file card, and your list of interesting people would look the
> same, but with file card numbers.

He would have a record in the "eople" table, and a link to the event. And the
link could indicate his role at the event as "Host", "Guest", "Master of
Ceremonies", "Speaker" or whatever.

>
>                    People: 1. Green, Fred
>                            2. Barack Obama II [No. 936]
>                            3. Bain, Andrew Hudson [No.1137]
>                            4. Orpen, Richard John Newenham [No 1489]
>                   Sources: 1. St John Diary, p. 64
>
> >The list of events was selected by the search argument "fred w3 >green",
> >which means any record that had "fred" within three words of >"green".
>
> RM: There is a risk at the moment of the wrong names being be used if
> you rely on the MS Access search-code to find people, so currently all
> of the output needs to be proof-read. If however new file cards were made as
> needed when Event-text was being entered, and you nominated the relationship
> between the subject and that person then there would be less risk of errors,
> but errors couldn't be eliminated entirely unless you specified manually who
> you wanted to be included, and that would be best done by clicking on the name
> in a Listbox.
>
> So if you want error free printouts, it seems that the only way to go,
> to record events with extra descriptive text, is to:
> (1) Click on the subject's name in a Listbox
> (2) Click on the Event name from a Listbox (or type in a unique one)

But the aim is to be able to print all the events linked to a particular
subject (or group of subjects), or all the subjects linked to an event, or
series of events.

> (3) Type in the date (or have an error-free date selection system)

Dates are one of the chief difficulties in using MS Access on its own, as it
can't handle partial dates in date fields.

The simplest workaround I can think of is to records dates as yyyy-mm-dd in
text fields, which will sort them correctly, and partial dates can be 2009-00-
00 or something similar.

> (4) Paste-in or type the text for the Event.
>
> The first 3 above are already in this little program that I've just written,
> and the next 4 could be added.
>
> A relational database cannot find relationships correctly all the time
> unless the relationships are set in concrete, and the only way that could be
> done (besides creating file cards for every person you want mentioned) is to
> append the Event-text (from someone's diary etc) with that person's unique
> file card number in the database.

Again, I'm not sure what you mean by "file card".

>
> For example, instead of the diary text reading:
> "Commodore Smith attended the gathering ..."
> It could be changed to:
> "Commodore Smith [1186] attended the gathering ..."
> then when the printout is produced, you have the [1186] automatically
> omitted.
>
> The relational database wouldn't care if Commodore Smith was
> recorded as "Commodore P.J. Smith, RAN". It only needs his number
> to know that he needs to be mentioned as a person of interest at an event.
>
> I suppose strictly speaking there *IS* no (personal) relationship for a
> relational database to find on your behalf. The program merely wants to know
> "Do we print this person or not - as a person worth mentioning every time the
> name pops up in Event-text?" If it sees a number in the Event-text in
> brackets, then it knows that the preceding name needs to be added at the end
> of the Event-text. The hard part for the program could be figuring out where
> the name actually began in the text if it wasn't identical to the file card
> name.

In a program like MS Access (or other relational database program) it is done
by giving each event record a unique  key field, and having a link record
that links the event record to the person record through the key fields.
It doesn't have to look for references in the text field at all. To link
them.
>
> >I could also select all records referring to Bloemfontein, whether >Fred
> >Green was involved or not.
>
> RM: If Bloemfontein was given a file card and a number, and that number was
> seen in any of the Event-text during the 'printout-search' then it could print
> everything for that particular event, but you would need to manually delete
> all the irrelevant text before and after the mention of Bloemfontein.

Again, I'm stilol not sure what you mean by a file card, unless you mean a
record in a table.


--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: shayes@...
   Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
     Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
     Fax: 086-548-2525

--- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@...> wrote:
>
> On 1 Dec 2009 at 16:02, ray_murphy aus wrote:
>
> > --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@> wrote:
> > >
> > > On 30 Nov 2009 at 10:28, ray_murphy aus wrote:
> >
> > >>[....] It looks like we need some examples to motivate us.
> >
>> >>[....] It looks like we need some examples to motivate us.
>>
>> >Here is such an example -- a report from the database whose >structure
>> >(field
>> >list) I posted a few messages back:
>>
>> [Snip]
>>
>>
>>  17-Mar-1853 Orange River Sovereignty, Bloemfontein
>>
>>              FRED GREEN & CO RETURN TO BLOEMFONTEIN FROM HUNTING
>>              EXPEDITION
>>                    People: 1. Green, Fred
>>                            2. St John, William Jones
>>                            3. Dawson, William
>>                            4. de Smidt, Johannes
>>                   Sources: 1. St John, Diary, p. 63
>>
>>  22-Mar-1853 Orange River Sovereignty, Bloemfontein
>>
>>              FRED GREEN, ST JOHN, DICK ORPEN HAVE DINNER WITH A.H.
>>              BAIN
>>                    People: 1. Green, Fred
>>                            2. St John, William Jones
>>                            3. Bain, Andrew Hudson
>>                            4. Orpen, Richard John Newenham
>>                   Sources: 1. St John Diary, p. 64
>>
>>  31-May-1853 Orange River Sovereignty, Bloemfontein
>>
>>              FRED GREEN DINED WITH WILLIAM ST JOHN IN BLOEMFONTEIN
>>              MESS
>>              Last mention of Fred Green in St John's diary. On 12 July
>>              St John went on a trip to Harrismith, and returned on 13
>>              August, when the diary ends. Fred Green may have left
>>              Bloemfontein by then.
>>                    People: 1. Green, Fred
>>                   Sources: 1. St John Diary, p. 79
>>
>> >Now that is a flat file database, not relational, so the names of the
>> >people assocated with each event were typed separately into each
>> > >record.
>> >That is the kind of duplication that a relational database >can avoid.
>>
>> RM: That duplication could only be avoided if your MS Access database
>> was expanded to work like a genealogy program and include file cards
>> for all the people who are mentioned in the Event-text.
>
> I still have no idea what you mean by a "file card". None of my books on
> MS Access mention such a thing, and none of the experts know what it means
> either.

RM: It's just a figure of speech I'm using to indicate the electronic record
which contains one or more pieces of information about a person in a dedicated
file with a unique code number in either a genealogy program or in MS Access.

>
> Byt if you check the diagram I posted at
>
> http://hayesgreene.wordpress.com/2009/11/26/370/
>
> you can see the main tables and the linking tables
>
>> It would also require the manual creation of relationships with the a
>> huge
>> array of yet-to-be imagined relationship names - unless they were all
>> just
>> called "Event Person" or nothing at all.
>
> The person-event link table should show the role of the person at the
> event,
> which could be in a lookup table, which the user could edit and add to.

>> So if Barack Obama II was at a party and you wanted him mentioned,
>> he would need a file card, and your list of interesting people would look
>> the
>> same, but with file card numbers.
>
> He would have a record in the "people" table, and a link to the event. And
> the
> link could indicate his role at the event as "Host", "Guest", "Master of
> Ceremonies", "Speaker" or whatever.
>
>>
>>                    People: 1. Green, Fred
>>                            2. Barack Obama II [No. 936]
>>                            3. Bain, Andrew Hudson [No.1137]
>>                            4. Orpen, Richard John Newenham [No 1489]
>>                   Sources: 1. St John Diary, p. 64

RM: Yes, under any system the recording of all people (of interest) needs to be
done, so they can be identified correctly.

>> >The list of events was selected by the search argument "fred w3 >green",
>> >which means any record that had "fred" within three words of >"green".
>>
>> RM: There is a risk at the moment of the wrong names being be used if
>> you rely on the MS Access search-code to find people, so currently all
>> of the output needs to be proof-read. If however new file cards were made
>> as
>> needed when Event-text was being entered, and you nominated the
>> relationship
>> between the subject and that person then there would be less risk of
>> errors,
>> but errors couldn't be eliminated entirely unless you specified manually
>> who
>> you wanted to be included, and that would be best done by clicking on the
>> name
>> in a Listbox.
>>
>> So if you want error free printouts, it seems that the only way to go,
>> to record events with extra descriptive text, is to:
>> (1) Click on the subject's name in a Listbox
>> (2) Click on the Event name from a Listbox (or type in a unique one)
>
> But the aim is to be able to print all the events linked to a particular
> subject (or group of subjects), or all the subjects linked to an event, or
> series of events.

RM: A simple search of everyone's events would throw up the events that
contained the keywords and store each whole event record, but they would still
need to be edited manually to remove all the unwanted material.

>> (3) Type in the date (or have an error-free date selection system)
>
> Dates are one of the chief difficulties in using MS Access on its own, as
> it can't handle partial dates in date fields.
>
> The simplest workaround I can think of is to records dates as yyyy-mm-dd
> in text fields, which will sort them correctly, and partial dates can be
> 2009-00-00 or something similar.

RM: That would work ok.

>> (4) Paste-in or type the text for the Event.
>>
>> The first 3 above are already in this little program that I've just
>> written, and the next 4 could be added.
>>
>> A relational database cannot find relationships correctly all the time
>> unless the relationships are set in concrete, and the only way that could
>> be
>> done (besides creating file cards for every person you want mentioned) is
>> to
>> append the Event-text (from someone's diary etc) with that person's
>> unique file card number in the database.
>
> Again, I'm not sure what you mean by "file card".
>
>>
>> For example, instead of the diary text reading:
>> "Commodore Smith attended the gathering ..."
>> It could be changed to:
>> "Commodore Smith [1186] attended the gathering ..."
>> then when the printout is produced, you have the [1186] automatically
>> omitted.
>>
>> The relational database wouldn't care if Commodore Smith was
>> recorded as "Commodore P.J. Smith, RAN". It only needs his number
>> to know that he needs to be mentioned as a person of interest at an
>> event.
>>
>> I suppose strictly speaking there *IS* no (personal) relationship for a
>> relational database to find on your behalf. The program merely wants to
>> know
>> "Do we print this person or not - as a person worth mentioning every time
>> the
>> name pops up in Event-text?" If it sees a number in the Event-text in
>> brackets, then it knows that the preceding name needs to be added at the
>> end
>> of the Event-text. The hard part for the program could be figuring out
>> where
>> the name actually began in the text if it wasn't identical to the file
>> card
>> name.
>
> In a program like MS Access (or other relational database program) it is
> done by giving each event record a unique  key field, and having a link record
> that links the event record to the person record through the key fields.
> It doesn't have to look for references in the text field at all. To link
> them.

RM: That's what I was saying too, but also that the ID key for each person needs
be included in the Event-text next to each name so it can be used.
If your current system is modified to do that, you won't need to use approximate
search arguments like "fred w3 >green", you can simply search for his ID number.
If you want to place those ID's in all of the events quickly, just have a sub
routine that searches the entire database and swaps a name like:
"Bill Smith" -- for "Bill Smith [1184].

Ray

On 2 Dec 2009 at 2:40, ray_murphy aus wrote:

> --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@...> wrote:
> >> For example, instead of the diary text reading:
> >> "Commodore Smith attended the gathering ..."
> >> It could be changed to:
> >> "Commodore Smith [1186] attended the gathering ..."
> >> then when the printout is produced, you have the [1186] automatically
> >> omitted.
> >>
> >> The relational database wouldn't care if Commodore Smith was
> >> recorded as "Commodore P.J. Smith, RAN". It only needs his number
> >> to know that he needs to be mentioned as a person of interest at an
> >> event.
> >>
> >> I suppose strictly speaking there *IS* no (personal) relationship for a
> >> relational database to find on your behalf. The program merely wants to
> >> know "Do we print this person or not - as a person worth mentioning every
> >> time the name pops up in Event-text?" If it sees a number in the Event-text
> >> in brackets, then it knows that the preceding name needs to be added at the
> >> end of the Event-text. The hard part for the program could be figuring out
> >> where the name actually began in the text if it wasn't identical to the
> >> file card name.
> >
> > In a program like MS Access (or other relational database program) it is
> > done by giving each event record a unique  key field, and having a link
> > record that links the event record to the person record through the key
> > fields. It doesn't have to look for references in the text field at all. To
> > link them.
>
> RM: That's what I was saying too, but also that the ID key for each person
> needs be included in the Event-text next to each name so it can be used. If
> your current system is modified to do that, you won't need to use approximate
> search arguments like "fred w3 >green", you can simply search for his ID
> number. If you want to place those ID's in all of the events quickly, just
> have a sub routine that searches the entire database and swaps a name like:
> "Bill Smith" -- for "Bill Smith [1184].

I think we have a misunderstanding here.

The report I sent was given as an example of the *kind* of report  that
should be produced in the sort of program I would like to see. The mechanism
of producing such a report comes later.

The sample report was produced using a "flat file" text database program. The
"fred w3 green" search argument is just one way of finding the records to
print, used in that particular database to search full-text fields.

In the sample I gave, consider this record:

2-Mar-1853 Orange River Sovereignty, Bloemfontein

              FRED GREEN GOES ON HUNTING EXPEDITION FROM BLOEMFONTEIN
              WITH W. ST JOHN, JOHANNES DE SMIDT & WILLIAM DAWSON.
              Fred Green set out with William St John, an officer of
              the Royal Artillery, from Bloemfontein to A.H. Bain's
              farm at Tempe, where they had dinner, and on to
              Kwaggafontein, from where they set out on a fortnight's
              hunting expedition.
                    People: 1. Green, Fred
                            2. St John, William Jones
                            3. Dawson, William
                            4. de Smidt, Johannes
                   Sources: 1. St John, Diary, p. 54

That is a formatted report from the database, but the underlying record in
the database looks like this:

ID          220
EVDATE/1    2-Mar-1853
EVPLACE/1   Orange River Sovereignty, Bloemfontein
EVENT/1     Fred Green goes on hunting expedition from Bloemfontein with W.
St
             John, Johannes de Smidt & William Dawson.
EVNOTE/1    Fred Green set out with William St John, an officer of the Royal
             Artillery, from Bloemfontein to A.H. Bain's farm at Tempe, where
             they had dinner, and on to Kwaggafontein, from where they set out
             on a fortnight's hunting expedition.
PEOPLE/1    Green, Fred
PEOPLE/2    St John, William Jones
PEOPLE/3    Dawson, William
PEOPLE/4    de Smidt, Johannes
SOURCE/1    St John, Diary, p. 54
DOCNUM/1
NOTES/1
COMMENTS/1
KEYWORDS/1   ORS Greenfam
UPDATE/1    16-Apr-2004
$

The $ sign at the beginning of the line is the "end-of-record" signifier.

This particular program allows repeating fields, and in this record there are
four people in the PEOPLE field. I can (and should have) record "Green, Fred"
as "Green, Frederick Thomas [144]" in the people field, and search for
"[144]" (which isd his RIN in my linage-linked programs.

But a relational database program (like MS Access) does not allow repeating
fields.

So if this record were to be in a relational database program, there would be
NO people field at all. Instead there would be four records in a "People"
table, which would then have links to this record, using a "People-Event"
table to link them, and would point to Record 220 in the Events table.

The same thing with the "Source" field. In this example there is only one
entry in the field, but there could be several sources with information on
the same event. But in a relational database these could be linked to the
"Source" table which would have fuller information on each source. I have a
database using the same flat file text datasbase program (Inmagic) which does
have details of the source, but because it is not a relational program they
are not linked. I have to look up source details separately. A report from
that database gives more information on the source as follows:

Schoeman, Karel. 1988. The Bloemfontein diary of Lieut W.J. St
                John. Cape Town: Human & Rosseau.
                ISBN: 0-7981-2243-9
                    William Jones St John was an officer of the
                    Royal Artillery stationed in Bloemfontein
                    during the time of the Orange River
                    Sovereignty. he had a lot of time on his
                    hands, and spent most of it hunting. Charles
                    and Fred Green were in town early in 1853, and
                    he hunted and played billiards with them, and
                    with Arthur and Henry Green as well, spending
                    a lot of time with Andreww Hudson Bain.

In a relational database, it would be possible to include both in the same
report, because "Source" and "Event" would be two linked tables in the same
database. In a "flat file" database like Inmagic, there are no links between
them except in  the researcher's mind. The Inmagic database I have created is
useful, but I'm trying to think of ways of making it more useful, and that
can be done using a relational database.

So I'm not looking for different ways of searching for records in Inmagic --
"fred w3 green" works just fine, and there are plenty of other ways of
searching.

What I'm looking for, and what I think would be useful to other researchers
as well, is a way of linking these different kinds of information in a
relational database.

What I think we ought to discuss is what kind of information should be
stored, and where and how should it be stored, to make it most useful to most
users.

The examples I gave show (I hope) how such a database would be useful to:

1. Someone writing a biography of Fred Green
2. Someone writing a history of the Green family
3. Someone writing a history of the Orange River Sovereignty
4. Someone writing a regimental history of the Royal Artillery

and that's just a few possible uses.




--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: shayes@...
   Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
     Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
     Fax: 086-548-2525

--- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@...> wrote:
>
> On 2 Dec 2009 at 2:40, ray_murphy aus wrote:
>
> > --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@> wrote:
> > >> For example, instead of the diary text reading:
> > >> "Commodore Smith attended the gathering ..."
> > >> It could be changed to:
> > >> "Commodore Smith [1186] attended the gathering ..."
> > >> then when the printout is produced, you have the [1186] automatically
> > >> omitted.
>> >>
>> >> The relational database wouldn't care if Commodore Smith was
>> >> recorded as "Commodore P.J. Smith, RAN". It only needs his number
>> >> to know that he needs to be mentioned as a person of interest at an
>> >> event.
>> >>
>> >> I suppose strictly speaking there *IS* no (personal) relationship for
>> >> a
>> >> relational database to find on your behalf. The program merely wants
>> >> to
>> >> know "Do we print this person or not - as a person worth mentioning
>> >> every
>> >> time the name pops up in Event-text?" If it sees a number in the
>> >> Event-text
>> >> in brackets, then it knows that the preceding name needs to be added
>> >> at the
>> >> end of the Event-text. The hard part for the program could be figuring
>> >> out
>> >> where the name actually began in the text if it wasn't identical to
>> >> the
>> >> file card name.
>> >
>> > In a program like MS Access (or other relational database program) it
>> > is
>> > done by giving each event record a unique  key field, and having a link
>> > record that links the event record to the person record through the key
>> > fields. It doesn't have to look for references in the text field at
>> > all. To
>> > link them.
>>
>>RM: That's what I was saying too, but also that the ID key for each
>>person needs be included in the Event-text next to each name so it >>can be
used. If your current system is modified to do that, you >>won't >>need to use
approximate search arguments like "fred w3 >green", you >>can simply search for
his ID number. If you want to place those >>ID's in all of the events quickly,
just have a sub routine that >>searches the entire database and swaps a name
like:
>> "Bill Smith" -- for "Bill Smith [1184].
>
> I think we have a misunderstanding here.
>
> The report I sent was given as an example of the *kind* of report  that
> should be produced in the sort of program I would like to see. The
> mechanism of producing such a report comes later.

> The sample report was produced using a "flat file" text database program.
> The "fred w3 green" search argument is just one way of finding the records
> to
> print, used in that particular database to search full-text fields.

RM: I see. I thought you must have expanded on that MS Access table and got
Access doing queries to produce output like that, but apparently it's another
program.

> In the sample I gave, consider this record:
>
> 2-Mar-1853 Orange River Sovereignty, Bloemfontein
>
>             FRED GREEN GOES ON HUNTING EXPEDITION FROM BLOEMFONTEIN
>             WITH W. ST JOHN, JOHANNES DE SMIDT & WILLIAM DAWSON.
>             Fred Green set out with William St John, an officer of
>             the Royal Artillery, from Bloemfontein to A.H. Bain's
>             farm at Tempe, where they had dinner, and on to
>             Kwaggafontein, from where they set out on a fortnight's
>             hunting expedition.
>                   People: 1. Green, Fred
>                           2. St John, William Jones
>                           3. Dawson, William
>                           4. de Smidt, Johannes
>                  Sources: 1. St John, Diary, p. 54

RM: The wording of the above text makes it look like a "Fred Green" event which
would not be printed anywhere else with that wording.
For a search for all "Fred Green" material, wouldn't it be just a matter of
printing:
(a) All of Fred Green's Events
(b) All of Fred Green's Characteristics (not discussed yet)
(c) All mentions of THIS Fred Green in anyone else's Event list
(d) All mentions of Fred Green in a global Event list

> That is a formatted report from the database, but the underlying record in
> the database looks like this:
>
> ID          220
> EVDATE/1    2-Mar-1853
> EVPLACE/1   Orange River Sovereignty, Bloemfontein
> EVENT/1     Fred Green goes on hunting expedition from Bloemfontein with
> W.
> St
>            John, Johannes de Smidt & William Dawson.
> EVNOTE/1    Fred Green set out with William St John, an officer of the
> Royal
>            Artillery, from Bloemfontein to A.H. Bain's farm at Tempe,
> where
>            they had dinner, and on to Kwaggafontein, from where they set
> out
>            on a fortnight's hunting expedition.
> PEOPLE/1    Green, Fred
> PEOPLE/2    St John, William Jones
> PEOPLE/3    Dawson, William
> PEOPLE/4    de Smidt, Johannes
> SOURCE/1    St John, Diary, p. 54
> DOCNUM/1
> NOTES/1
> COMMENTS/1
> KEYWORDS/1   ORS Greenfam
> UPDATE/1    16-Apr-2004
> $
>
> The $ sign at the beginning of the line is the "end-of-record" signifier.
>
> This particular program allows repeating fields, and in this record there
> are four people in the PEOPLE field. I can (and should have) record
> "Green,
> Fred" as "Green, Frederick Thomas [144]" in the people field, and search
> for
> "[144]" (which isd his RIN in my linage-linked programs.
>
> But a relational database program (like MS Access) does not allow
> repeating fields.

RM: That part about repeating fields hasn't sunk in for me yet.

> So if this record were to be in a relational database program, there would
> be NO people field at all. Instead there would be four records in a
> "People" table, which would then have links to this record, using a
> "People-Event"
> table to link them, and would point to Record 220 in the Events table.

RM: Well, like I indicated above, the event was worded as a Fred Green
event, so I cannot see why you would want to link it to other people for later
retrieval with the same wording - as if it was *their* event
description..

> The same thing with the "Source" field. In this example there is only one
> entry in the field, but there could be several sources with information on
> the same event. But in a relational database these could be linked to the
> "Source" table which would have fuller information on each source. I have
> a database using the same flat file text datasbase program (Inmagic) which
> does have details of the source, but because it is not a relational
> program
> they are not linked. I have to look up source details separately.

RM: I think most people using relational databases would find it a bit hard to
visualise all the connections once they start getting a bit complex, but there
could be an easier way to test out some ideas  - simply write ordinary code in
Visual Basic to tell the program where to go to retrieve the required
information and where to add it. That's all MS Access is doing anyway - sending
a long set of instructions in relatively plain English - so if we can begin
thinking in those terms instead of staring at MS Access graphical
representations of the instructions and trying to imagine what goes where - or
wondering why we cannot get Access cannot do a particular thing.

So if a prototype in VB can be made to work, then it's just a matter of
translating the VB written instructions into MS Access mouse clicks etc., and if
that doesn't work, just use the slower VB code in partnership with Access.

>A report
> from that database gives more information on the source as follows:
>
> Schoeman, Karel. 1988. The Bloemfontein diary of Lieut W.J. St
>               John. Cape Town: Human & Rosseau.
>               ISBN: 0-7981-2243-9
>                   William Jones St John was an officer of the
>                   Royal Artillery stationed in Bloemfontein
>                   during the time of the Orange River
>                   Sovereignty. he had a lot of time on his
>                   hands, and spent most of it hunting. Charles
>                   and Fred Green were in town early in 1853, and
>                   he hunted and played billiards with them, and
>                   with Arthur and Henry Green as well, spending
>                   a lot of time with Andreww Hudson Bain.
>
> In a relational database, it would be possible to include both in the same
> report, because "Source" and "Event" would be two linked tables in the
> same database. In a "flat file" database like Inmagic, there are no links
> between  them except in  the researcher's mind. The Inmagic database
> I have created is useful, but I'm trying to think of ways of making it
> more
> useful, and that can be done using a relational database.

RM: I can see no reason why anything like that cannot be done in VB,
once the programmer knows what is required.

> So I'm not looking for different ways of searching for records in
> Inmagic --  "fred w3 green" works just fine, and there are plenty of
> other ways of searching.
>
> What I'm looking for, and what I think would be useful to other
> researchers as well, is a way of linking these different kinds of
> information
> in a relational database.

RM: It boils down to explaining in very clear language what you want a
*program* to do - not what you want a relational database to do. Some
or all of the work might be done more easily ~outside~ of a relational
database - or even outside of MS Access altogether. In some cases a
sophisticated relational database would work 100 times faster than VB
but hey, will genealogy people be complaining if they have to wait for
1000 milliseconds instead of waiting only 10 milliseconds for something to pop
into view?

> What I think we ought to discuss is what kind of information should be
> stored, and where and how should it be stored, to make it most useful to
> most users.

RM: From my experience with a similar project, I'd say that there should be no
limit on what kind of information is eventually stored on anyone's program.
Besides being a good idea, it completely eliminates arguments and resulting
hold-ups.

The question of where information should be stored depends on the program
design, or whether there are both personal-use databases, as well as large
industrial-strength databases. Smaller amounts of data could be stored in simple
csv files, and large amounts in MS Access or separate csv files that are called
when needed.

> The examples I gave show (I hope) how such a database would be useful to:
>
> 1. Someone writing a biography of Fred Green
> 2. Someone writing a history of the Green family
> 3. Someone writing a history of the Orange River Sovereignty
> 4. Someone writing a regimental history of the Royal Artillery
>
> and that's just a few possible uses.

Another obvious one, is geneology people simply looking at such a printout for
an individual and searching for clues in the text that fit in with other people
or events.

Ray

On 3 Dec 2009 at 11:03, ray_murphy aus wrote:

> RM: I think most people using relational databases would find it a bit hard to
> visualise all the connections once they start getting a bit complex, but there
> could be an easier way to test out some ideas  - simply write ordinary code in
> Visual Basic to tell the program where to go to retrieve the required
> information and where to add it. That's all MS Access is doing anyway -
> sending a long set of instructions in relatively plain English - so if we can
> begin thinking in those terms instead of staring at MS Access graphical
> representations of the instructions and trying to imagine what goes where - or
> wondering why we cannot get Access cannot do a particular thing.
>
> So if a prototype in VB can be made to work, then it's just a matter of
> translating the VB written instructions into MS Access mouse clicks etc., and
> if that doesn't work, just use the slower VB code in partnership with Access.

My idea was precisely the opposite.

First to do a prototype in MS Access or a similar general database program,
in order to establish which tables need to be used, and what links need to be
made between them.

THEN, when it's working, and a few people have tried it, write a program in
Visual Basic or some other language to enter, access and manipulate the data
in the tables in a stand-alone program that can be used without having to own
a proprietary one like MS Access.

I don't know enough about programming to do any of this.

I could, just possibly, have done it in Paradox 4.5 for DOS 15 years ago, but
that is obsolete and I've given up trying to keep up. That's why I was hoping
that people here could do it as a cooperative project.

> >A report
> > from that database gives more information on the source as follows:
> >
> > Schoeman, Karel. 1988. The Bloemfontein diary of Lieut W.J. St
> >               John. Cape Town: Human & Rosseau.
> >               ISBN: 0-7981-2243-9
> >                   William Jones St John was an officer of the
> >                   Royal Artillery stationed in Bloemfontein
> >                   during the time of the Orange River
> >                   Sovereignty. he had a lot of time on his
> >                   hands, and spent most of it hunting. Charles
> >                   and Fred Green were in town early in 1853, and
> >                   he hunted and played billiards with them, and
> >                   with Arthur and Henry Green as well, spending
> >                   a lot of time with Andreww Hudson Bain.
> >
> > In a relational database, it would be possible to include both in the same
> > report, because "Source" and "Event" would be two linked tables in the same
> > database. In a "flat file" database like Inmagic, there are no links between
> >  them except in  the researcher's mind. The Inmagic database I have created
> > is useful, but I'm trying to think of ways of making it more useful, and
> > that can be done using a relational database.
>
> RM: I can see no reason why anything like that cannot be done in VB,
> once the programmer knows what is required.

Of course.

At the moment, we're trying to establish and clarify what is required.

> > So I'm not looking for different ways of searching for records in
> > Inmagic --  "fred w3 green" works just fine, and there are plenty of
> > other ways of searching.
> >
> > What I'm looking for, and what I think would be useful to other
> > researchers as well, is a way of linking these different kinds of
> > information
> > in a relational database.
>
> RM: It boils down to explaining in very clear language what you want a
> *program* to do - not what you want a relational database to do. Some
> or all of the work might be done more easily ~outside~ of a relational
> database - or even outside of MS Access altogether. In some cases a
> sophisticated relational database would work 100 times faster than VB
> but hey, will genealogy people be complaining if they have to wait for
> 1000 milliseconds instead of waiting only 10 milliseconds for something to pop
> into view?

The program manipulates the database.

But before you decide what the program should do, you need to decide on the
database that you want it to manupulate.

I have three or four databases I use in Inmagic -- but they are flat file
databases and so unlinked. Inmagic doesn't do relational databases.

You can write a program in Visual Basic that does relational databases, and
you can create and manipulate relational databases with MS Access and several
other programs. But the database needs to be relational. If it isn't, I might
as well go on using Inmagic, and that would be of no use to other people,
unless they too bought InMagic, or its Windows version, DB Text.

> > What I think we ought to discuss is what kind of information should be
> > stored, and where and how should it be stored, to make it most useful to
> > most users.
>
> RM: From my experience with a similar project, I'd say that there should be no
> limit on what kind of information is eventually stored on anyone's program.
> Besides being a good idea, it completely eliminates arguments and resulting
> hold-ups.
>
> The question of where information should be stored depends on the program
> design, or whether there are both personal-use databases, as well as large
> industrial-strength databases. Smaller amounts of data could be stored in
> simple csv files, and large amounts in MS Access or separate csv files that
> are called when needed.

CSV files are flat-file type databases, and sequential access. They can be
used by very simple programs, but if you want to do anything with them it's
better to import them into a spreadsheet or a proper database program.

> > The examples I gave show (I hope) how such a database would be useful to:
> >
> > 1. Someone writing a biography of Fred Green
> > 2. Someone writing a history of the Green family
> > 3. Someone writing a history of the Orange River Sovereignty
> > 4. Someone writing a regimental history of the Royal Artillery
> >
> > and that's just a few possible uses.
>
> Another obvious one, is geneology people simply looking at such a printout for
> an individual and searching for clues in the text that fit in with other
> people or events.

Yes, indeed. You see that you have information on what your subject was doing
in one period, but not in another, so you ask what went in in the missing
period. You see that he had a lot of contact with someone in one period, but
it stopped -- what happened -- did they fall out, go separate ways, or did
one of them die?


--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: shayes@...
   Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
     Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
     Fax: 086-548-2525

--- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@...> wrote:
>
> On 3 Dec 2009 at 11:03, ray_murphy aus wrote:
>
>> RM: I think most people using relational databases would find it a bit
>> hard to
>> visualise all the connections once they start getting a bit complex, but
>> there
>> could be an easier way to test out some ideas  - simply write ordinary
>> code in
>> Visual Basic to tell the program where to go to retrieve the required
>> information and where to add it. That's all MS Access is doing anyway -
>> sending a long set of instructions in relatively plain English - so if we
>> can
>> begin thinking in those terms instead of staring at MS Access graphical
>> representations of the instructions and trying to imagine what goes
>> where - or
>> wondering why we cannot get Access cannot do a particular thing.
>>
>> So if a prototype in VB can be made to work, then it's just a matter of
>> translating the VB written instructions into MS Access mouse clicks etc.,
>> and
>> if that doesn't work, just use the slower VB code in partnership with
>> Access.
>
> My idea was precisely the opposite.
>
> First to do a prototype in MS Access or a similar general database
> program,
> in order to establish which tables need to be used, and what links need to
> be
> made between them.
>
> THEN, when it's working, and a few people have tried it, write a program
> in
> Visual Basic or some other language to enter, access and manipulate the
> data
> in the tables in a stand-alone program that can be used without having to
> own
> a proprietary one like MS Access.
>
> I don't know enough about programming to do any of this.
>
> I could, just possibly, have done it in Paradox 4.5 for DOS 15 years ago,
> but
> that is obsolete and I've given up trying to keep up. That's why I was
> hoping
> that people here could do it as a cooperative project.

RM: It would be quite easy for a skilled MS Access programmer to do
what you're looking for, but only if very clear instructions were given
beforehand. Most of those who could volunteer to help would be saying
that they were only available to write the code from clear instructions -
not *develop* a good program over a period of several weeks or many
months - so a working model in VB or anything else would make it
very clear to them if you said:-
"Do what that program is doing, but more efficiently"
It would remove nearly all of the inevitable string of
misunderstandings that programmers constantly face.

>> >A report
>> > from that database gives more information on the source as follows:
>> >
>> > Schoeman, Karel. 1988. The Bloemfontein diary of Lieut W.J. St
>> >               John. Cape Town: Human & Rosseau.
>> >               ISBN: 0-7981-2243-9
>> >                   William Jones St John was an officer of the
>> >                   Royal Artillery stationed in Bloemfontein
>> >                   during the time of the Orange River
>> >                   Sovereignty. he had a lot of time on his
>> >                   hands, and spent most of it hunting. Charles
>> >                   and Fred Green were in town early in 1853, and
>> >                   he hunted and played billiards with them, and
>> >                   with Arthur and Henry Green as well, spending
>> >                   a lot of time with Andreww Hudson Bain.
>> >
>> > In a relational database, it would be possible to include both in the
>> > same
>> > report, because "Source" and "Event" would be two linked tables in the
>> > same
>> > database. In a "flat file" database like Inmagic, there are no links
>> > between
>> >  them except in  the researcher's mind. The Inmagic database I have
>> > created
>> > is useful, but I'm trying to think of ways of making it more useful,
>> > and
>> > that can be done using a relational database.
>>
>> RM: I can see no reason why anything like that cannot be done in VB,
>> once the programmer knows what is required.
>
> Of course.
>
> At the moment, we're trying to establish and clarify what is required.
>
>> > So I'm not looking for different ways of searching for records in
>> > Inmagic --  "fred w3 green" works just fine, and there are plenty of
>> > other ways of searching.
>> >
>> > What I'm looking for, and what I think would be useful to other
>> > researchers as well, is a way of linking these different kinds of
>> > information
>> > in a relational database.
>>
>> RM: It boils down to explaining in very clear language what you want a
>> *program* to do - not what you want a relational database to do. Some
>> or all of the work might be done more easily ~outside~ of a relational
>> database - or even outside of MS Access altogether. In some cases a
>> sophisticated relational database would work 100 times faster than VB
>> but hey, will genealogy people be complaining if they have to wait for
>> 1000 milliseconds instead of waiting only 10 milliseconds for something
>> to pop into view?
>
> The program manipulates the database.
>
> But before you decide what the program should do, you need to decide on
> the database that you want it to manupulate.
>
> I have three or four databases I use in Inmagic -- but they are flat file
> databases and so unlinked. Inmagic doesn't do relational databases.

> You can write a program in Visual Basic that does relational databases,
> and you can create and manipulate relational databases with MS Access and
> several other programs. But the database needs to be relational. If it
> isn't, I
> might as well go on using Inmagic, and that would be of no use to other
> people,
> unless they too bought InMagic, or its Windows version, DB Text.

RM: It seems we might be talking about some pretty simple relationships
here.
What are we looking for - in plain English?
A printout of:
(1) All the subject's Events and accompanying text - (easy to do right now)
(2) All other Event paragraphs in the database that mention the
subject.

* Note(1): Sources could be automatically included at the end of the Event text,
so there would be no need to have them at other locations, with links provided
to locate and insert them. This would be easy to do, by searching every event in
the database for the selected keywords or ID numbers.

* Note (2): Global events could all be stored as just that - for an entity named
"GLOBAL" with its own ID number.

>> > What I think we ought to discuss is what kind of information should be
>> > stored, and where and how should it be stored, to make it most useful
>> > to most users.
>>
>> RM: From my experience with a similar project, I'd say that there should
>> be no
>> limit on what kind of information is eventually stored on anyone's
>> program.
>> Besides being a good idea, it completely eliminates arguments and
>> resulting
>> hold-ups.
>>
>> The question of where information should be stored depends on the program
>> design, or whether there are both personal-use databases, as well as
>> large
>> industrial-strength databases. Smaller amounts of data could be stored in
>> simple csv files, and large amounts in MS Access or separate csv files
>> that
>> are called when needed.
>
> CSV files are flat-file type databases, and sequential access. They can be
> used by very simple programs, but if you want to do anything with them
> it's better to import them into a spreadsheet or a proper database program.

RM: Only if a database is very big. I use a csv file for most of the prominent
people (to the western world) ever born in history, in a csv database of 30,000
people. Sure, it takes a minute or two to load, on a 300Mhz PC but once it's
loaded the data is recalled extremely fast and events of every imaginable
description are added in a flash.
Mind you, the event descriptions are small - unlike your longer diary entries
etc, but the average genealogy person is unlikely to be keying-in or pasting-in
mountains of text - so this is all 'do-able' in the very near future - and it's
when people have got something that actually works, they can suggest
improvements.

[....]

Ray

On 3 Dec 2009 at 19:11, ray_murphy aus wrote:

> --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@...> wrote:

> > My idea was precisely the opposite.
> >
> > First to do a prototype in MS Access or a similar general database
> > program,
> > in order to establish which tables need to be used, and what links need to
> > be made between them.
> >
> > THEN, when it's working, and a few people have tried it, write a program in
> > Visual Basic or some other language to enter, access and manipulate the data
> > in the tables in a stand-alone program that can be used without having to
> > own a proprietary one like MS Access.
> >
> > I don't know enough about programming to do any of this.
> >
> > I could, just possibly, have done it in Paradox 4.5 for DOS 15 years ago,
> > but that is obsolete and I've given up trying to keep up. That's why I was
> > hoping that people here could do it as a cooperative project.
>
> RM: It would be quite easy for a skilled MS Access programmer to do
> what you're looking for, but only if very clear instructions were given
> beforehand. Most of those who could volunteer to help would be saying
> that they were only available to write the code from clear instructions - not
> *develop* a good program over a period of several weeks or many months - so a
> working model in VB or anything else would make it very clear to them if you
> said:- "Do what that program is doing, but more efficiently" It would remove
> nearly all of the inevitable string of misunderstandings that programmers
> constantly face.

I repeat: I would prefer to do it the other way round -- develop a working
model in MS Access, THEN write a program in VB or some other language.

> > At the moment, we're trying to establish and clarify what is required.
> > The program manipulates the database.
> >
> > But before you decide what the program should do, you need to decide on the
> > database that you want it to manupulate.
> >
> > I have three or four databases I use in Inmagic -- but they are flat file
> > databases and so unlinked. Inmagic doesn't do relational databases.
>
> > You can write a program in Visual Basic that does relational databases, and
> > you can create and manipulate relational databases with MS Access and
> > several other programs. But the database needs to be relational. If it
> > isn't, I might as well go on using Inmagic, and that would be of no use to
> > other people, unless they too bought InMagic, or its Windows version, DB
> > Text.
>
> RM: It seems we might be talking about some pretty simple relationships
> here.
> What are we looking for - in plain English?
> A printout of:
> (1) All the subject's Events and accompanying text - (easy to do right now)
> (2) All other Event paragraphs in the database that mention the subject.

(3) All the event's subjects - ie all the people involved in the event.
(4) All events of a particular type, eith all the people involved in them
(5) Events relating to anyone who was a member of a particular group or
organisation.

And there are several other possibilities.

> * Note(1): Sources could be automatically included at the end of the Event
> text, so there would be no need to have them at other locations, with links
> provided to locate and insert them. This would be easy to do, by searching
> every event in the database for the selected keywords or ID numbers.
>
> * Note (2): Global events could all be stored as just that - for an entity
> named "GLOBAL" with its own ID number.

ALL events should be global, and EACH event should have its own ID number.

> > CSV files are flat-file type databases, and sequential access. They can be
> > used by very simple programs, but if you want to do anything with them it's
> > better to import them into a spreadsheet or a proper database program.
>
> RM: Only if a database is very big. I use a csv file for most of the prominent
> people (to the western world) ever born in history, in a csv database of
> 30,000 people. Sure, it takes a minute or two to load, on a 300Mhz PC but once
> it's loaded the data is recalled extremely fast and events of every imaginable
> description are added in a flash. Mind you, the event descriptions are small -
> unlike your longer diary entries etc, but the average genealogy person is
> unlikely to be keying-in or pasting-in mountains of text - so this is all
> 'do-able' in the very near future - and it's when people have got something
> that actually works, they can suggest improvements.

The Inmagic program I'm using now allows for the storage of almost unlimited
text in any field in any record (there is a limit, imposed by disk space). My
diary takes 40 Megs.

Relational databases have "Memo" fields or something similar for storing
large amounts of text.


--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: shayes@...
   Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
     Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
     Fax: 086-548-2525

--- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@...> wrote:
>
> On 3 Dec 2009 at 19:11, ray_murphy aus wrote:
>
> > --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@> wrote:
>
> > > My idea was precisely the opposite.
> > >
> > > First to do a prototype in MS Access or a similar general database
> > > program,
> > > in order to establish which tables need to be used, and what links need to
> > > be made between them.
> > >
> > > THEN, when it's working, and a few people have tried it, write a program
in
> > > Visual Basic or some other language to enter, access and manipulate the
data
> > > in the tables in a stand-alone program that can be used without having to
> > > own a proprietary one like MS Access.
> > >
> > > I don't know enough about programming to do any of this.
> > >
> > > I could, just possibly, have done it in Paradox 4.5 for DOS 15 years ago,
> > > but that is obsolete and I've given up trying to keep up. That's why I was
> > > hoping that people here could do it as a cooperative project.
> >
> > RM: It would be quite easy for a skilled MS Access programmer to do
> > what you're looking for, but only if very clear instructions were given
> > beforehand. Most of those who could volunteer to help would be saying
> > that they were only available to write the code from clear instructions -
not
> > *develop* a good program over a period of several weeks or many months - so
a
> > working model in VB or anything else would make it very clear to them if you
> > said:- "Do what that program is doing, but more efficiently" It would remove
> > nearly all of the inevitable string of misunderstandings that programmers
> > constantly face.
>
> I repeat: I would prefer to do it the other way round -- develop a working
> model in MS Access, THEN write a program in VB or some other language.

RM: I've already got that test VB program working and displaying all the
required events, sources and people, but as it turned out, it didn't need MS
Access or its complex linkage system at all.

The user-interface being used would be the same under any system,
and irrespective of what was happening in the background with tables,
linkages or arrays.

Of course this doesn't solve the problem of creating links between
Tables in MS Access if they are needed, but at least we can now run all sorts of
data through it and see what (if anything) is missing in the print-outs and
figure out what sort of links need to be created between Tables.

Ray

--- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, Paul Blair <pblair30@...> wrote:
>
> At 01:02 pm 8-03-2006, you wrote:
> >That question should generate a good set of choices.
> >
> >
> >AOL/AIM -- DDavis5310, Yahoo - - DickDavis60, MSN - - FDDavis53
> >
> >
> >What are the top five features that you'd like to see in an event database?

> There are 3 that spring to mind....and this is stating the bleeding
> obvious. Assuming that the two main stream of info are event and
> people, we need to be able to:
> 1. relate events to other events
> 2. relate people to other people
> 3. relate people to events, and events to people
>
> And, of course, dates/timelines have to be mixed in somehow.
>
> Then it gets harder...
>
> Paul
> Australia

RM: [3 years + 9 months later] - The meaning of those suggestions probably won't
become clear until some real-life testing is done with the event-program that
I've just got working or others like it. We'll need to come up with some
specific requests or ideas that might:
* solve existing problems,
* point to other possible paths to follow,
* reduce time manually assembling any of the data.

Ray

--- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "ray_murphy aus" <raymurph@...> wrote:
>
> --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@> wrote:
> >
> > On 3 Dec 2009 at 19:11, ray_murphy aus wrote:
> >
> > > --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@> wrote:
> >
[....]

> RM: I've already got that test VB program working and displaying all the
required events, sources and people, but as it turned out, it didn't need MS
Access or its complex linkage system at all.
>
> The user-interface being used would be the same under any system,
> and irrespective of what was happening in the background with tables,
> linkages or arrays.

[....]

[Update]

A much better version of the VB program has been uploaded to the Files section
of this group's website. It's called "GENEVENTS2"

It can be used to store literally anything that one could ever imagine because
users can add their own categories for Events, Facts or Relationships between
people.

Any date system can be used, but if full automatic sorting is required for
print-outs, then we need to use the YYYY,MM,DD format. If however some dates are
not in the correct format (and order in a printout) then they can be simply
re-positioned by Copy/Paste in the print-out panel.

If "Connected People" are required for event descriptions, then just click on
their names and they will be automatically inserted.

If Sources of information are required for events etc, then they simply need to
be entered with the event.

The program has a concise Help section in the Menu, so most questions will be
answered there.

This latest version should make it easy for anyone to create a database with a
SUITABLE 5.5 Gedcom and start seeing future potential or current weaknesses with
the system.

Ray

I've had quite a lot of computer problems recently, including a dying hard
disk. I won't go into the details -- if you really want to know you can read
them on my general blog here:

http://methodius.blogspot.com/2009/12/frustrating-computers.html

I managed to replace the dying disk drive with a new and bigger one, and
restore backed-up data to it, but lost most of my e-mail for the last three
months, from 1 September to 7 December, including messages in my "to-reply"
folder.

If you sent me something and were expecting a reply, and don't receive one,
please, if possible send a copy of your original message, or at least a
reminder.

There are also more details on the family history aspect of this on our
family history blog at:

http://hayesgreene.wordpress.com/2009/12/10/disk-crash-and-lost-e-mail/


--
Keep well,
Steve Hayes
Web:    http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/famhist1.htm
  	 http://hayesgreene.wordpress.com
E-mail: shayes@...

Just a reminder of the genealogical software discussion forum on YahooGroups

In is a good place for

* discussing programs you are using, and how to get the best out of them
* discussing programs you would like to see
* discussing improvements you would like to see in existing programs
* collaborating in developing programs that are useful for genealogists
* reviewing genealogy software
* announcing and commenting on new versions and programs
* anything else to do with computer programs used for genealogy

When discussing general software, such as word processors, spreadsheets,
databases etc., it is best to stick to the genealogical uses of those programs
-- but sharing ideas on how they can be used for genealogy is good.

Group Email Addresses
Post message:  gensoft@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe:  gensoft-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe:  gensoft-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
List owner:  gensoft-owner@yahoogroups.com

Group web site
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gensoft

Steve Hayes
Moderator of Genealogy Software Forum

Just a reminder of the genealogical software discussion forum on YahooGroups

In is a good place for

* discussing programs you are using, and how to get the best out of them
* discussing programs you would like to see
* discussing improvements you would like to see in existing programs
* collaborating in developing programs that are useful for genealogists
* reviewing genealogy software
* announcing and commenting on new versions and programs
* anything else to do with computer programs used for genealogy

When discussing general software, such as word processors, spreadsheets,
databases etc., it is best to stick to the genealogical uses of those programs
-- but sharing ideas on how they can be used for genealogy is good.

Group Email Addresses
Post message:  gensoft@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe:  gensoft-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe:  gensoft-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
List owner:  gensoft-owner@yahoogroups.com

Group web site
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gensoft

Steve Hayes
Moderator of Genealogy Software Forum

Just a reminder of the genealogical software discussion forum on YahooGroups

In is a good place for

* discussing programs you are using, and how to get the best out of them
* discussing programs you would like to see
* discussing improvements you would like to see in existing programs
* collaborating in developing programs that are useful for genealogists
* reviewing genealogy software
* announcing and commenting on new versions and programs
* anything else to do with computer programs used for genealogy

When discussing general software, such as word processors, spreadsheets,
databases etc., it is best to stick to the genealogical uses of those programs
-- but sharing ideas on how they can be used for genealogy is good.

Group Email Addresses
Post message:  gensoft@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe:  gensoft-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe:  gensoft-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
List owner:  gensoft-owner@yahoogroups.com

Group web site
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gensoft

Steve Hayes
Moderator of Genealogy Software Forum

Just a reminder of the genealogical software discussion forum on YahooGroups

In is a good place for

* discussing programs you are using, and how to get the best out of them
* discussing programs you would like to see
* discussing improvements you would like to see in existing programs
* collaborating in developing programs that are useful for genealogists
* reviewing genealogy software
* announcing and commenting on new versions and programs
* anything else to do with computer programs used for genealogy

When discussing general software, such as word processors, spreadsheets,
databases etc., it is best to stick to the genealogical uses of those programs
-- but sharing ideas on how they can be used for genealogy is good.

Group Email Addresses
Post message:  gensoft@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe:  gensoft-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe:  gensoft-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
List owner:  gensoft-owner@yahoogroups.com

Group web site
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gensoft

Steve Hayes
Moderator of Genealogy Software Forum

Just a reminder of the genealogical software discussion forum on YahooGroups

In is a good place for

* discussing programs you are using, and how to get the best out of them
* discussing programs you would like to see
* discussing improvements you would like to see in existing programs
* collaborating in developing programs that are useful for genealogists
* reviewing genealogy software
* announcing and commenting on new versions and programs
* anything else to do with computer programs used for genealogy

When discussing general software, such as word processors, spreadsheets,
databases etc., it is best to stick to the genealogical uses of those programs
-- but sharing ideas on how they can be used for genealogy is good.

Group Email Addresses
Post message:  gensoft@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe:  gensoft-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe:  gensoft-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
List owner:  gensoft-owner@yahoogroups.com

Group web site
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gensoft

Steve Hayes
Moderator of Genealogy Software Forum

Just a reminder of the genealogical software discussion forum on YahooGroups

In is a good place for

* discussing programs you are using, and how to get the best out of them
* discussing programs you would like to see
* discussing improvements you would like to see in existing programs
* collaborating in developing programs that are useful for genealogists
* reviewing genealogy software
* announcing and commenting on new versions and programs
* anything else to do with computer programs used for genealogy

When discussing general software, such as word processors, spreadsheets,
databases etc., it is best to stick to the genealogical uses of those programs
-- but sharing ideas on how they can be used for genealogy is good.

Group Email Addresses
Post message:  gensoft@yahoogroups.com
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Steve Hayes
Moderator of Genealogy Software Forum

On 10 Jun 2010 at 19:13, Paul Blair wrote:

> > > 0 @I5@ INDI
> > > 1 NAME Marion Lynette /Doyle/
> > > 2 SURN Doyle
> > > 2 GIVN Marion Lynette
> > > 2 _AKA /Lyn/ <<< I'm not sure the slashes should be there....
> > > 2 _MARNM Marion Lynette Blair
> > > 1 SEX F
> >
> > Yes, but what if there is more than one?

> Hi Steve

I hope you won't mind if I reply in the Gensoft forum, partly because it has
been so quiet and could do with a bit of discussion, and also because it
makes it easier for me to find and file it.

> Apologies for not replying earlier. Your incoming got trapped by my spam
> filter!

I'm not sure why that should be -my spam filter is set to trap a lot of HTML
mail, because HTML is used a lot by spammers, but mine is set to "text-only" -
  did I use a naughty word?

> In reply: I believe that, if there is more than one, the first one listed is
> the most current, and so on. It can get a bit complex - I have a couple, each
> of whom married 3 partners at separate times, including themselves - a
> marriage, a divorce, a remarriage. :-) She also sued him for restoration of
> conjugal rights...dunno what he was or wasn't doing!

Yes, I have one of those - she married four times, twice to the same bloke --
the first time in Sydney, when his previous wife was still alive, and the
second time in Adelaide, after she had died (but also after their children
were born). I'll attach a sample report.

The problem with PAF, however, is that it provides only one field for a
married name, so even if it exports it, it doesn't export all of them.

The program I still use for basic entry, the Family History System (FHS -
1993 DOS version), doesn't use a special field, but does produce address
reports and things like that under a woman's married name, if you want it to

> In case you've not guessed, I've moved from phpGedView (PGV)to The Next
> Generation (TNG). TNG is lighter weight, and lacks many nice things that I'd
> gotten used to in PGV. Let me know if you want to see what it looks like in
> action - I'll set up an account.

I was using it this morning - a site I use for my research, Axholme Ancestry,
keeps members contributions in TNG. If you'd like to have a look, it's at:

http://www.red1st.com/axholme/index.php

> An exciting time over your way? Our evening TV is all South African.

Yes indeed. The big kick-off is tomorrow.

Here's the report I was talking about and her 2nd and 3rd/4th husbands had
other marriages as well.

Family Group Report
For: Margaret Agnes Ann Green  (ID=  935)
Date Prepared: 10 Jun 2010

NAME: GREEN, Margaret Agnes Ann, Born 8 Dec 1835 in Nova Scotia,
   Died 26 Dec 1902 in Marrickville, NSW, AUS at age 67; FATHER:
   GREEN, William John (Goodall), Born 28 Aug 1790, Died 9 Apr
   1866 at age 75; MOTHER: GRAY, Margaret, Born 18 May 1795, Died
   11 May 1844? at age 48; Came to Cape Colony at age of 11 with
   father and brothers. Married William Wilson while still young
   and emigrated to Australia.

MARRIED 20 Aug 1879 in Adelaide, SA, to THWAITES, Walter William
   McLean, Born ??? 1841 in Sydney, NSW, Australia, Died 20 Mar
   1908 in Victoria, Australia at age 67; FATHER: THWAITES,
   Walter William, Born ??? 1814, Died Feb 1888 at age 74;
   MOTHER: MCLEAN, Jane

MARRIED 2 May 1871 in Sydney, NSW until 20 Aug 1879 in Adelaide,
   SA, to THWAITES, Walter William McLean, Born ??? 1841 in
   Sydney, NSW, Australia, Died 20 Mar 1908 in Victoria,
   Australia at age 67; FATHER: THWAITES, Walter William, Born
   ??? 1814, Died Feb 1888 at age 74; MOTHER: MCLEAN, Jane;
   Married first in Sydney, then again in Adelaide, because
   Sydney marriage was bigamous.

MARRIED 9 Jan 1858 in Gundary, NSW, to FRANCIS, Alfred John
   Dawson, Born ??? 1820? in Liverpool, England, Died 5 Mar 1864
   in Sydney, NSW at age 44; FATHER: FRANCIS, John; Witness: Dean
   Francis. He was a widower, she a widow, both of Bodalla.;
   Source: death date - family tree sent by Bob Cowley

MARRIED ??? 1851 in Cape Town (?), to WILSON, William, Born ???
   1823? in Camberwell, London, Died 21 Apr 1856 in Tuross River,
   NSW at age 33; According to W. Wilson's death certificate, he
   married Margaret Agnes Glasgow at the Cape of Good Hope at the
   age of 28.

CHILDREN:
  1. F  WILSON, Caroline Agnes, born 20 Apr 1854 in Sydney, NSW,
        died 7 Dec 1946 in North Havelock, NZ; Married 21 Jul
        1874 to BRATHWAITE, Robert Ashley Warre; 8 children
  2. F  WILSON, Emily Eleanora, born 23 Aug 1855 in New South
        Wales, died 18 Jun 1859 in Yarragee, NSW, AUS
  3. F  FRANCIS, Ada Anne Angeline Fairfax, born 10 Mar 1859 in
        Bodalla, NSW, AUS, died 9 Nov 1938 in Ashfield, NSW, AUS;
        Married 1 Aug 1894 to WHITE, William
  4. M  FRANCIS, Arthur Walpole, born 7 Jan 1861 in Moruya, NSW,
        died 8 May 1921 in Mariental Dist. SWA; Married 2 Nov
        1887 to DONOVAN, Ida Miranda Willoughby; 3 children
  5. F  FRANCIS, Edith Lilian, born 20 Aug 1862 in Yarragee, NSW,
        died 13 Oct 1926 in Melbourne, Vic. Aust.; Married 10 Oct
        1885 to BRIDGES, William Throsby; 7 children
  6. F  FRANCIS, Louisa, born 3 Nov 1864 in Queanbeyan, NSW, died
        18 Mar 1943 in Tenterfield, NSW; Married 24 Dec 1883 to
        COWLEY, Percy; 10 children
  7. F  THWAITES, Margaret Jane, born 20 Mar 1872 in Sydney, died
        ??? in Sydney
  8. M  THWAITES, Walter William Alfred, born 2 Jan 1874 in
        Sydney, NSW, Australia, died ???; Married 25 Jul 1895 to
        SAVAGE, Emily Victoria; 6 children
  9. M  THWAITES, Herbert Edward, born 28 Nov 1875 in Australia,
        died 28 Jan 1937 in Boksburg; Married to BRITTAIN, Motty
        Adeline; 2 children
10. F  THWAITES, Elizabeth, born ??? 1876, died ???


--
Keep well,
Steve Hayes
Web:    http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/famhist1.htm
  	 http://hayesgreene.wordpress.com
E-mail: shayes@...

Just a reminder of the genealogical software discussion forum on YahooGroups

In is a good place for

* discussing programs you are using, and how to get the best out of them
* discussing programs you would like to see
* discussing improvements you would like to see in existing programs
* collaborating in developing programs that are useful for genealogists
* reviewing genealogy software
* announcing and commenting on new versions and programs
* anything else to do with computer programs used for genealogy

When discussing general software, such as word processors, spreadsheets,
databases etc., it is best to stick to the genealogical uses of those programs
-- but sharing ideas on how they can be used for genealogy is good.

Group Email Addresses
Post message:  gensoft@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe:  gensoft-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe:  gensoft-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
List owner:  gensoft-owner@yahoogroups.com

Group web site
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gensoft

Steve Hayes
Moderator of Genealogy Software Forum

A group has started to build a better GEDCOM, and they are using a wikil to
collect ideas.

I've blogged about it here:

http://hayesgreene.blogspot.com/2010/11/build-better-gedcom.html


--
Keep well,
Steve Hayes
Web:    http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/famhist1.htm
  	 http://hayesgreene.wordpress.com
E-mail: shayes@...

Just a reminder of the genealogical software discussion forum on YahooGroups

In is a good place for

* discussing programs you are using, and how to get the best out of them
* discussing programs you would like to see
* discussing improvements you would like to see in existing programs
* collaborating in developing programs that are useful for genealogists
* reviewing genealogy software
* announcing and commenting on new versions and programs
* anything else to do with computer programs used for genealogy

When discussing general software, such as word processors, spreadsheets,
databases etc., it is best to stick to the genealogical uses of those programs
-- but sharing ideas on how they can be used for genealogy is good.

Group Email Addresses
Post message:  gensoft@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe:  gensoft-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe:  gensoft-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
List owner:  gensoft-owner@yahoogroups.com

Group web site
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gensoft

Steve Hayes
Moderator of Genealogy Software Forum

Here's a site for genealogy software reviews:

http://www.gensoftreviews.com/index.php

You can write your own reciews, read other people's reviews, and see what
software is available.


--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: shayes@...
   Web: http://hayesstw.tumblr.com/  (follow me on Tumblr)
     Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
     Fax: 086-548-2525

Just a reminder of the genealogical software discussion forum on YahooGroups

In is a good place for

* discussing programs you are using, and how to get the best out of them
* discussing programs you would like to see
* discussing improvements you would like to see in existing programs
* collaborating in developing programs that are useful for genealogists
* reviewing genealogy software
* announcing and commenting on new versions and programs
* anything else to do with computer programs used for genealogy

When discussing general software, such as word processors, spreadsheets,
databases etc., it is best to stick to the genealogical uses of those programs
-- but sharing ideas on how they can be used for genealogy is good.

Group Email Addresses
Post message:  gensoft@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe:  gensoft-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe:  gensoft-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
List owner:  gensoft-owner@yahoogroups.com

Group web site
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gensoft

Steve Hayes
Moderator of Genealogy Software Forum

Just a reminder of the genealogical software discussion forum on YahooGroups

In is a good place for

* discussing programs you are using, and how to get the best out of them
* discussing programs you would like to see
* discussing improvements you would like to see in existing programs
* collaborating in developing programs that are useful for genealogists
* reviewing genealogy software
* announcing and commenting on new versions and programs
* anything else to do with computer programs used for genealogy

When discussing general software, such as word processors, spreadsheets,
databases etc., it is best to stick to the genealogical uses of those programs
-- but sharing ideas on how they can be used for genealogy is good.

Group Email Addresses
Post message:  gensoft@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe:  gensoft-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe:  gensoft-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
List owner:  gensoft-owner@yahoogroups.com

Group web site
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gensoft

Steve Hayes
Moderator of Genealogy Software Forum