--- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, Steve Hayes <hayesstw@...> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 00:27:43 -0400, in soc.history.moderated Steve Hayes
> <hayesmstw@...> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 16:14:07 -0400, phuile <phuile@...> wrote:
>
> >I am looking for a chronology software that allows me to input dates
> >and notes on historical events and can store these data and display it
> >in a timeline or similar ways. The graphical display is not as
> >important as the fact that I can insert dates and events randomly and
> >the software/database would store them and display them in a
> >chronological sequence. Search function is important too. I would also
> >need to be able to say, search for a period and see what events are
> >around that period.
> >Does anyone know of anything like this? I know of several "timeline"
> >programs but they are too graphically and not as much a notes-link-to-
> >database type of tool I need.
>
> I have long felt the need for such software, which I think would be useful for
> historians, biographers, family historians, local historians and others.
>
> I tried to develop such a database in MS Access, and hoped that people who
> were more into softwere development would help me refine and test it, but i
> couldn't find anyone else who was interested.
>
> I've discussed it in the past in soc.genealogy.computing.
>
> The database has three main tables -- Events, People and Places.
>
> Events are entered so that they can be sorted chronologically, with a brief
> description.
>
> The Places database could show what events took place in a particular place.
>
> The People database would show people involved in the event, and in what
> capacity they were involved -- participant, witness, host, guest etc.
>
> I still feel the need for such a program, and I'm sure many others would find
> it useful too, but I'm not a software developer, so I can just describe the
> kind of thing I want.
>
> In the absence of that, however, I've found askSam to be a useful program for
> research notes.
>
> http://www.asksam.com/

It wouldn't be hard to write a Visual Basic stand-alone program to do this. I'm
no expert with VB but I'll help to get the ball rolling.

What about a few of us trying to design something on this group?

On 22 Jul 2009 at 9:24, Ray Murphy wrote:

> --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, Steve Hayes <hayesstw@...> wrote:
> > I've discussed it in the past in soc.genealogy.computing.
> >
> > The database has three main tables -- Events, People and Places.
> >
> > Events are entered so that they can be sorted chronologically, with a brief
> > description.
> >
> > The Places database could show what events took place in a particular place.
> >
> >
> > The People database would show people involved in the event, and in what
> > capacity they were involved -- participant, witness, host, guest etc.
> >
> > I still feel the need for such a program, and I'm sure many others would
> > find it useful too, but I'm not a software developer, so I can just describe
> > the kind of thing I want.

> It wouldn't be hard to write a Visual Basic stand-alone program to do this.
> I'm no expert with VB but I'll help to get the ball rolling.
>
> What about a few of us trying to design something on this group?

I think that that would be an excellent idea!

If you look at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gensoft/files/DevSoft/

you will find Access tables and a description of them for such a program,
which could be a starting point for discussion and development.


--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: shayes@...
   Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
     Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
     Fax: 086-548-2525

--- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@...> wrote:
> On 22 Jul 2009 at 9:24, Ray Murphy wrote:
> > --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, Steve Hayes <hayesstw@> wrote:
>>>I've discussed it in the past in soc.genealogy.computing.
>>>
>>>The database has three main tables -- Events, People and Places.
>>>
>>>Events are entered so that they can be sorted chronologically, >>>with a
brief description.
>>>
>>>The Places database could show what events took place in a >>>particular
place.
>>>
>>>
>>>The People database would show people involved in the event, and >>>in what
capacity they were involved -- participant, witness, host, >>>guest etc.
>>>
>>>I still feel the need for such a program, and I'm sure many others >>>would
find it useful too, but I'm not a software developer, so I >>>can just describe
the kind of thing I want.
>
>>RM: It wouldn't be hard to write a Visual Basic stand-alone program >>to do
this. I'm no expert with VB but I'll help to get the ball >>rolling.
>>
>>What about a few of us trying to design something on this group?
>
>I think that that would be an excellent idea!
>
>If you look at
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gensoft/files/DevSoft/
>
>you will find Access tables and a description of them for such a >program,
which could be a starting point for discussion and >development.

RM: I've had a look at those two files. Yes, we could build something that is
very easy to use in MS Access, but most people wouldn't be able to open it
because they don't have MS Access or wouldn't be getting a free runtime version
of it. In any case it might be an overkill for what the average user may need or
want.

I think the next step should be for some of us to start drawing up some
imaginary scenarios so we can see what might be typically done, and how it it
supposed to be combined with genealogy programs - if at all.

We would need:
(1) A clickable Index of people's names, with provision for a minimun of 32,000
names to start with, so that we can open a file card for that person quickly.

(2) A clickable-List of event types so that the event is placed on the file card
instantly.

(3) A clickable-List of Person-relationships so that the person-type is placed
on the file card instantly - such as mother, father, sister, pastor, priest etc.

(4) A Date-Entry line in MM,DD,YYYY or DD,MM,YYYY or alternatively 3 small list
boxes where DMY are selected.

(5) A Place entry box or boxes, i.e. place, city, state, country

(6) A user-defined Place-Listbox so that the user doesn't have to keep typing
the same places all the time.

(7) A Text-Entry box for biographies and detailed descriptions etc.

(8) A human readable master CSV file -  i.e. a text file with all "fields" such
as name, date, place etc, separated by commas. [CSV stands for Comma Separated
Values]. This would make the whole thing visible in MS Excel and MS Access and
similar programs - as well as Wordpad etc.

On 22 Jul 2009 at 13:12, Ray Murphy wrote:

> RM: I've had a look at those two files. Yes, we could build something that is
> very easy to use in MS Access, but most people wouldn't be able to open it
> because they don't have MS Access or wouldn't be getting a free runtime
> version of it. In any case it might be an overkill for what the average user
> may need or want.

I thought it was possible to open such files with a program written in Visual
Basic.

But even if it isn't, the main purpose of the Access tobles is for discussing
the fields and relationships, and seeing which is the best way of doing
things.

Another possibility might be to use the Open Office Base program, which is
free, but a stand-alone app written in Visual Basic would be better.

> I think the next step should be for some of us to start drawing up some
> imaginary scenarios so we can see what might be typically done, and how it it
> supposed to be combined with genealogy programs - if at all.

I don't think it should be combined with genealogy programs, though it would
be useful if it could import data from genealogy programs (via GEDCOM?) to
save retyping, and also export data in a form that could be exported to
genealogy programs.

But the essential feature of this program is not that it is lineage-linked
but that it is event-based, and includes social relationships -- work
colleagues, friends, casual acquaintances etc. and even people that the
subject doesn't know at all -- for example, if the subject (of a biography)
witnessed a presidential inauguration ceremony, the president could be
included even if thee president and the subject had never spoken to each
other.

>
> We would need:
> (1) A clickable Index of people's names, with provision for a minimun of
> 32,000 names to start with, so that we can open a file card for that person
> quickly.
>
> (2) A clickable-List of event types so that the event is placed on the file
> card instantly.

> (3) A clickable-List of Person-relationships so that the person-type is placed
> on the file card instantly - such as mother, father, sister, pastor, priest
> etc.
>
> (4) A Date-Entry line in MM,DD,YYYY or DD,MM,YYYY or alternatively 3 small
> list boxes where DMY are selected.

In my sample tables I made the date field a text field, with dates to be
entered in the form YYYY-MM-DD, so that if the month and day are not known it
can still be sorted with a simple sort by entering something like 1372-00-00
or 1684-05-00. I know genealogy programs have other ways of dealing with the
problem, but those algorithms are beyond my computing skills.

>
> (5) A Place entry box or boxes, i.e. place, city, state, country

> (6) A user-defined Place-Listbox so that the user doesn't have to keep typing
> the same places all the time.

Yes, and a Memo field for description of the place, and notes of changes of
name, if any. It would be up to the user to decide which name to use, e.g.
Danzig or Gdansk.

> (7) A Text-Entry box for biographies and detailed descriptions etc.
>
> (8) A human readable master CSV file -  i.e. a text file with all "fields"
> such as name, date, place etc, separated by commas. [CSV stands for Comma
> Separated Values]. This would make the whole thing visible in MS Excel and MS
> Access and similar programs - as well as Wordpad etc.

Yes, and for import as well as export.



--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: shayes@...
   Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
     Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
     Fax: 086-548-2525

On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 11:05:20 -0400, in soc.history.moderated Steve Hayes
<hayesmstw@...> wrote:

On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 17:01:41 -0400, Marvin <physchem@...> wrote:

>phuile wrote:
>> I am looking for a chronology software that allows me to input dates
>> and notes on historical events and can store these data and display it
>> in a timeline or similar ways. The graphical display is not as
>> important as the fact that I can insert dates and events randomly and
>> the software/database would store them and display them in a
>> chronological sequence. Search function is important too. I would also
>> need to be able to say, search for a period and see what events are
>> around that period.
>> Does anyone know of anything like this? I know of several "timeline"
>> programs but they are too graphically and not as much a notes-link-to-
>> database type of tool I need.
>> Thanks for any advice.
>>
>I think it could be done with a spreadsheet, and a graphics
>program if the graphing capability of the spreadsheet
>software isn't adequate.

It can be done, provided one remembers to enter dates in a TEXT field (and not
as dates), in the format yyyy-mm-dd.

That means that if the month and day are not known, on can enter 1347-00-00,
for example, and it will still sort correctly.

Most spreadsheets cannot correctly handle dates in the date field for more
than a centurry ago, and they have problems with dates like c1500.

I have revived discussion of this in the genealogy software discussion forum
at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gensoft


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Just a reminder of the genealogical software discussion forum on YahooGroups

In is a good place for

* discussing programs you are using, and how to get the best out of them
* discussing programs you would like to see
* discussing improvements you would like to see in existing programs
* collaborating in developing programs that are useful for genealogists
* reviewing genealogy software
* announcing and commenting on new versions and programs
* anything else to do with computer programs used for genealogy

When discussing general software, such as word processors, spreadsheets,
databases etc., it is best to stick to the genealogical uses of those programs
-- but sharing ideas on how they can be used for genealogy is good.

Group Email Addresses
Post message:  gensoft@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe:  gensoft-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe:  gensoft-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
List owner:  gensoft-owner@yahoogroups.com

Group web site
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gensoft

Steve Hayes
Moderator of Genealogy Software Forum

On 21 May 2001 17:50:59 GMT, in soc.history.moderated jorn@... (Jorn
Barger) wrote:

Over on comp.ai.nat-lang (a newsgroup about trying to use Artificial
Intelligence to understand 'natural' languages, like English) I've been
trying to stir up interest in an "outline of history" project, using
something like XML...

The general idea would be to treat all history-webpages as timelines--
series of EVENT items, with each event having a DATE attribute, and
normally a PLACE and various PERSONs...

So something like XML (extensible markup language) could be used to
'tag' timeline entries (or even _sentences_ within long prose
descriptions of historical events).

   <EVENT
      DATE="1492.10.12"
      PERSON="Columbus.Christopher"
      PLACE="Caribbean.Bahamas"
      RELATIONSHIP="visited">
    1492: 12Oct: Columbus 'discovers' America
   </EVENT>

This will allow search-engine queries on dates (or range of dates) or
persons or places, etc, with the search-engine easily returning all
pages that fit the query...

But the hardest thing will be those RELATIONSHIPs-- that attribute has
to capture as much historical context as possible, but still use a fixed
and unambiguous vocabulary.

So a big priority is to sketch an _outline of history_ using limited
vocabulary: starting with migrations, and why groups migrate, and what
happens when they arrive-- relationships between neighboring groups,
like conquest or assimilation or whatever...

I have a very rough start at:

  http://www.robotwisdom.com/science/history.html

...but the research required to take it the next step is overwhelming
me!



--
  http://www.robotwisdom.com/  "Relentlessly intelligent
yet playful, polymathic in scope of interests, minimalist
but user-friendly design." --Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel

--

--
Steve Hayes
Web: http://hayesgreene.wordpress.com/
      http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/famhist1.htm
      http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7783/

Just a reminder of the genealogical software discussion forum on YahooGroups

In is a good place for

* discussing programs you are using, and how to get the best out of them
* discussing programs you would like to see
* discussing improvements you would like to see in existing programs
* collaborating in developing programs that are useful for genealogists
* reviewing genealogy software
* announcing and commenting on new versions and programs
* anything else to do with computer programs used for genealogy

When discussing general software, such as word processors, spreadsheets,
databases etc., it is best to stick to the genealogical uses of those programs
-- but sharing ideas on how they can be used for genealogy is good.

Group Email Addresses
Post message:  gensoft@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe:  gensoft-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe:  gensoft-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
List owner:  gensoft-owner@yahoogroups.com

Group web site
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gensoft

Steve Hayes
Moderator of Genealogy Software Forum

Just a reminder of the genealogical software discussion forum on YahooGroups

In is a good place for

* discussing programs you are using, and how to get the best out of them
* discussing programs you would like to see
* discussing improvements you would like to see in existing programs
* collaborating in developing programs that are useful for genealogists
* reviewing genealogy software
* announcing and commenting on new versions and programs
* anything else to do with computer programs used for genealogy

When discussing general software, such as word processors, spreadsheets,
databases etc., it is best to stick to the genealogical uses of those programs
-- but sharing ideas on how they can be used for genealogy is good.

Group Email Addresses
Post message:  gensoft@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe:  gensoft-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe:  gensoft-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
List owner:  gensoft-owner@yahoogroups.com

Group web site
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gensoft

Steve Hayes
Moderator of Genealogy Software Forum

Just a reminder of the genealogical software discussion forum on YahooGroups

In is a good place for

* discussing programs you are using, and how to get the best out of them
* discussing programs you would like to see
* discussing improvements you would like to see in existing programs
* collaborating in developing programs that are useful for genealogists
* reviewing genealogy software
* announcing and commenting on new versions and programs
* anything else to do with computer programs used for genealogy

When discussing general software, such as word processors, spreadsheets,
databases etc., it is best to stick to the genealogical uses of those programs
-- but sharing ideas on how they can be used for genealogy is good.

Group Email Addresses
Post message:  gensoft@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe:  gensoft-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe:  gensoft-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
List owner:  gensoft-owner@yahoogroups.com

Group web site
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gensoft

Steve Hayes
Moderator of Genealogy Software Forum

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the gensoft
group.

   File        : /Programs/Old Genealogy Uitilities/TTED22.ZIP
   Uploaded by : hayesstw <hayesstw@...>
   Description : Tiny Tafel editor

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gensoft/files/Programs/Old%20Genealogy%20Uitilitie\
s/TTED22.ZIP

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/forms/general.htmlfiles

Regards,

hayesstw <hayesstw@...>

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the gensoft
group.

   File        : /Programs/Old Genealogy Uitilities/FGC.ZIP
   Uploaded by : hayesstw <hayesstw@...>
   Description : Prints Family Group Sheets on 4x6 cards

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gensoft/files/Programs/Old%20Genealogy%20Uitilitie\
s/FGC.ZIP

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/forms/general.htmlfiles

Regards,

hayesstw <hayesstw@...>

John Allsopp (Author of Genota and Genota Forms) was visiting Johannesburg,
so I dropped in to see him and we had an interesting chat.

Three topics relevant to the Genealogy Software Furum came up:

1. The need for an event-based database program for genealogists, historians,
biographers etc.

2. John's own programs, Geneota and Genota Forms

3. Old utility programs for which there are no modern equivalents.

As a result, I've uploaded a few of these to the website of this forum, in
the hope that they may inspire some enterprising hackers to reverse engineer
them for modern hardware and software.

There were wones called Nameview and Namedrop that scanned BBS messages for
things like surnames of interest, and manipulated those messages to collect
them. They worked with Fido Technology Networks, but no one seems to have
written an equivalent that works with mailing lists, newsgroups, or web
forums.

There were utility that took data from genealogy programs (mainly PAF 2.x)
and printed family grtoup sheets on 3x5 or 4x6 cards.

That is FAR more useful than the stupid trick of software developers who
tried to make a computer screen look like a card index, which had all the
disadvantages and none of the advantages of the cards themselves.

But those utilities were written in DOS, and modern printers don't work with
DOS. So the utilities need to be rewritten to use modern programs and moder
hardware.

Tiny Tafel Genenrator -- which not only developed but matched Tiny Tafels.
Trouble is, it was written in Turbo Pascal, which doesn't work on fast
machines. You need a slow processor for it to run, under 500 Mhz, I think.

There are a few more there -- back in the old days we may have had less tyhan
we do now, but very often we could do more with the less we had.

So have a look at them, and see if you can reverse engineer them to produce
new versions.


--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: shayes@...
   Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
     Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
     Fax: 086-548-2525

I'm reposting this, because I made a hash of it the first time. Apart from
anything else, I called Dennis Allsopp John Allsopp -- apologies, Dennis! And
there were several other errors.

There's a fuller version, with pictures, links, etc, on my blog at:

http://hayesgreene.wordpress.com/2009/11/26/370/

Dennis Allsopp (Author of Genota and Genota Forms) was visiting Johannesburg, so
I dropped in to see him and we had an interesting chat.

Three topics relevant to the Genealogy Software Forum came up:

1. The need for an event-based database program for genealogists, historians,
biographers etc.

2. Dennis's own programs, Geneota and Genota Forms

3. Old utility programs for which there are no modern equivalents.

As a result, I've uploaded a few of these old utilities to the website of the
forum, in
the hope that they may inspire some enterprising hackers to reverse engineer
them for modern hardware and software.

There were utilities called Nameview and Namedrop that scanned BBS messages for
things like surnames of interest, and manipulated those messages to collect
them. They worked with Fido Technology Networks, but no one seems to have
written an equivalent that works with mailing lists, newsgroups, or web
forums.

There were utilities that took data from genealogy programs (mainly PAF 2.x)
and printed family grtoup sheets on 3x5 or 4x6 cards.

That is FAR more useful than the stupid trick of software developers who
tried to make a computer screen look like a card index, which had all the
disadvantages and none of the advantages of the cards themselves.

But most of those utilities were written in DOS, and modern printers don't work
with
DOS. So the utilities need to be rewritten to use modern programs and moder
hardware.

There was the Tiny Tafel Generator -- which not only developed but matched
Tiny Tafels. Trouble is, it was written in Turbo Pascal, which doesn't work
on fast machines. You need a slow processor for it to run, under 500 Mhz, I
think.

There are a few more there -- back in the old days we may have had less than
we do now, but very often we could do more with the less we had.

So have a look at them, and see if you can reverse engineer them to produce
new versions.

And see the blog post at

http://hayesgreene.wordpress.com/2009/11/26/370/

for more on the event-based program we discussed.

--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: shayes@...
   Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
     Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
     Fax: 086-548-2525

I'm new to the forum, but have a lot of programming experience (politically
correct term for old ;-)  My comments are in-line.

--- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@...> wrote:

> There were utilities called Nameview and Namedrop that scanned BBS messages
for
> things like surnames of interest, and manipulated those messages to collect
> them. They worked with Fido Technology Networks, but no one seems to have
> written an equivalent that works with mailing lists, newsgroups, or web
> forums.

Plain text (the Fido and other BBS formats) is relatively easy to parse.  Back
in DOS days, a guy I worked with was capturing the output of an online database
(in-house stuff for AT&T) to a text file via CrossTalk and using a dBASE script
someone else had written to process the captured data and produce reports (yes,
it was a case of "If the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a
nail").  I wrote a parser in compiled BASIC that trimmed the 2 hour process down
to less than a minute: convert text to CSV, import CSV into dBASE.

The current crop of HTML mail programs with multiple fonts and images (including
in-line ads, etc) is more complex to process - and there are a LOT more mail
programs.  Simple HTML mail is not nearly so complex as HTML mail generated by
Microsoft Word.  The same can be said for parsing web pages (including forums) -
some are much simpler (and closer to the HTML standards) than others.

The scan process is certainly possible: ReaderWare has book, CD, and video
database programs that collect the details of your collection from a barcode
scan (or manual entry) of the ISBN (books), LCCN (books) or UPC (CDs and video)
and then use that number in an online search of the likely sources of
information (Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Library of Congress, etc) - and it's all
done in Java.

> But most of those utilities were written in DOS, and modern printers don't
work with
> DOS. So the utilities need to be rewritten to use modern programs and modern
> hardware.

I still have a couple of ASCII-capable printers that work just fine with DOS
programs (and the output of the microprocessors I dabble with in retirement) -
an HP DeskJet 500 that I bought refurbished (with a 3 year warranty!) long long
ago and the refurb HP DeskJet 520 my younger daughter took to college a couple
of years later.  Yes, they are old, slow, loud, and big but they are truly
"built like a tank" and just keep running.  The number of fax machines built on
the HP 500-series platform have kept the #26 cartridge alive (at least in
refilled units).

The ideal printer for cards was a tractor-feed dot matrix, but those are in
short supply - except the bigger ones, used for multi-part forms.

New versions of these programs can certainly be produced; it's a matter of
finding someone with the proper skills and sufficient interest in genealogy. 
I'm more likely to spend time with my grandkids....

John

Comments interspersed.

> 1. The need for an event-based database program for genealogists, historians,
> biographers etc.

Well, for genealogists, The Master Genealogist is event-based. And since the
user can customise the events, I am guessing it could be tweaked to support
historians and biographers more generally.

Apart from family history, I don't think the marketplace for other forms of
history is particularly large, so a low-cost commercial offering seems unlikely,
unless it can be done as a tweak to something else. For example, animal breeders
use family history software increasingly to track their animal pedigrees because
family history software is cheap by comparison to the specialist breeder
software offering costing thousands of dollars (or so I have been told).


> There were wones called Nameview and Namedrop that scanned BBS messages for
> things like surnames of interest, and manipulated those messages to collect
> them. They worked with Fido Technology Networks, but no one seems to have
> written an equivalent that works with mailing lists, newsgroups, or web
> forums.

> Tiny Tafel Genenrator -- which not only developed but matched Tiny Tafels.

I think the modern "solution" is to let Google loose on message archive and then
use Google search. Since you can ask Google to search over only a specific site,
you can probably approximate the same effect.

However, a specialist genealogy search tool probably can exploit the convention
of SURNAMES being in upper case or the interpretation of Tiny Tafels which
Google cannot. However, there are already a number of specialist Google
searches, e.g. Google scholar, that do treat content as more than just a bunch
of key words (that is, exploit specific structures and conventions), so if
Google thought the interest was there and put a bit of their horsepower into it
(they employ some very smart people), the result could be amazingly good.

On 27 Nov 2009 at 22:00, Kerry wrote:

> Comments interspersed.
>
> > 1. The need for an event-based database program for genealogists,
> > historians, biographers etc.
>
> Well, for genealogists, The Master Genealogist is event-based. And since the
> user can customise the events, I am guessing it could be tweaked to support
> historians and biographers more generally.

So people keep telling me, but I've never managed to discover it for myself,
since every time I've tried to use TMG it has crashed my computer. I know
some people manage to use it, but I am not one of the lucky ones.

> Apart from family history, I don't think the marketplace for other forms of
> history is particularly large, so a low-cost commercial offering seems
> unlikely, unless it can be done as a tweak to something else. For example,
> animal breeders use family history software increasingly to track their animal
> pedigrees because family history software is cheap by comparison to the
> specialist breeder software offering costing thousands of dollars (or so I
> have been told).

It could be done either as shareware, or a trial version. Or it could be done
as an open source project, which might be better, as more and different kinds
of users could contribute it -- no one person can imagine all the
circumstances in which it might be used.

> > There were wones called Nameview and Namedrop that scanned BBS messages for
> > things like surnames of interest, and manipulated those messages to collect
> > them. They worked with Fido Technology Networks, but no one seems to have
> > written an equivalent that works with mailing lists, newsgroups, or web
> > forums.
>
> > Tiny Tafel Genenrator -- which not only developed but matched Tiny Tafels.
>
> I think the modern "solution" is to let Google loose on message archive and
> then use Google search. Since you can ask Google to search over only a
> specific site, you can probably approximate the same effect.
>
> However, a specialist genealogy search tool probably can exploit the
> convention of SURNAMES being in upper case or the interpretation of Tiny
> Tafels which Google cannot. However, there are already a number of specialist
> Google searches, e.g. Google scholar, that do treat content as more than just
> a bunch of key words (that is, exploit specific structures and conventions),
> so if Google thought the interest was there and put a bit of their horsepower
> into it (they employ some very smart people), the result could be amazingly
> good.

Yes such searches are useful, and can, of course, search for old messages as
well as current ones, if these are archived somewhere.

But I would subscribe to a lot more mailing lists if I could download only
the messages that I was interested in.


--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: shayes@...
   Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
     Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
     Fax: 086-548-2525

Picking up on the comment...

>But I would subscribe to a lot more mailing lists if
>I could download only the messages that I was interested in.

For me I use the RSS feed for the newsgroup or mailing list.  Google Reader the
provides options for tagging messages.  Or if you want to go further use
something like Evernote with Google Reader to download your own copy of a
particular post.

I actually use the RSS feed for many more Groups than I subscribe to just
because I have a passing geographic interest but can then quickly scan the
messages in one place.

Graham


--- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@...> wrote:
>
> On 27 Nov 2009 at 22:00, Kerry wrote:
>
> > Comments interspersed.
> >
> > > 1. The need for an event-based database program for genealogists,
> > > historians, biographers etc.
> >
> > Well, for genealogists, The Master Genealogist is event-based. And since the
> > user can customise the events, I am guessing it could be tweaked to support
> > historians and biographers more generally.
>
> So people keep telling me, but I've never managed to discover it for myself,
> since every time I've tried to use TMG it has crashed my computer. I know
> some people manage to use it, but I am not one of the lucky ones.
>
> > Apart from family history, I don't think the marketplace for other forms of
> > history is particularly large, so a low-cost commercial offering seems
> > unlikely, unless it can be done as a tweak to something else. For example,
> > animal breeders use family history software increasingly to track their
animal
> > pedigrees because family history software is cheap by comparison to the
> > specialist breeder software offering costing thousands of dollars (or so I
> > have been told).
>
> It could be done either as shareware, or a trial version. Or it could be done
> as an open source project, which might be better, as more and different kinds
> of users could contribute it -- no one person can imagine all the
> circumstances in which it might be used.
>
> > > There were wones called Nameview and Namedrop that scanned BBS messages
for
> > > things like surnames of interest, and manipulated those messages to
collect
> > > them. They worked with Fido Technology Networks, but no one seems to have
> > > written an equivalent that works with mailing lists, newsgroups, or web
> > > forums.
> >
> > > Tiny Tafel Genenrator -- which not only developed but matched Tiny Tafels.
> >
> > I think the modern "solution" is to let Google loose on message archive and
> > then use Google search. Since you can ask Google to search over only a
> > specific site, you can probably approximate the same effect.
> >
> > However, a specialist genealogy search tool probably can exploit the
> > convention of SURNAMES being in upper case or the interpretation of Tiny
> > Tafels which Google cannot. However, there are already a number of
specialist
> > Google searches, e.g. Google scholar, that do treat content as more than
just
> > a bunch of key words (that is, exploit specific structures and conventions),
> > so if Google thought the interest was there and put a bit of their
horsepower
> > into it (they employ some very smart people), the result could be amazingly
> > good.
>
> Yes such searches are useful, and can, of course, search for old messages as
> well as current ones, if these are archived somewhere.
>
> But I would subscribe to a lot more mailing lists if I could download only
> the messages that I was interested in.
>
>
> --
> Steve Hayes
> E-mail: shayes@...
>   Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
>     Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
> Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
>     Fax: 086-548-2525
>

--- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@...> wrote:
>
> I'm reposting this, because I made a hash of it the first time. Apart from
> anything else, I called Dennis Allsopp John Allsopp -- apologies, Dennis! And
> there were several other errors.
>
> There's a fuller version, with pictures, links, etc, on my blog at:
>
> http://hayesgreene.wordpress.com/2009/11/26/370/
>
> Dennis Allsopp (Author of Genota and Genota Forms) was visiting Johannesburg,
so I dropped in to see him and we had an interesting chat.
>
> Three topics relevant to the Genealogy Software Forum came up:
>
> 1. The need for an event-based database program for genealogists, historians,
> biographers etc.
>
> 2. Dennis's own programs, Geneota and Genota Forms
>
> 3. Old utility programs for which there are no modern equivalents.
>
> As a result, I've uploaded a few of these old utilities to the website of the
forum, in
> the hope that they may inspire some enterprising hackers to reverse engineer
> them for modern hardware and software.

[.....]

I'm trying to help out here by continuing the discussion - hoping that it will
make your idea clearer for the rest of us.

I spent several months (as an amateur programmer) making two different programs
- one in MS Access and the other in Visual Basic, but they were nowhere near as
complex as your idea sounds, even though both programs store literally any type
of event, relationship (family, business, social etc), plus any characteristic
or quality that one could ever imagine for any given person or entity, including
animals.

The reason those two programs are not complex like your idea sounds, is because
they are not relational databases. The event data etc is simply selected from
the program's listboxes and the dates are entered with the keyboard and both go
onto the entity's file card.

If the programs don't have suitable selections, then a user can just create new
categories on the fly and they become part of the program - so those new
categories don't have to be typed in repeatedly.

I'd suggest after going this far with my own programs, that unless there is a
clear demand for a certain type of data to be gathered, then just get SOME sort
of program started, and see what is needed as real data is gradually entered. 
That's all I did - and I kept seeing new opportunities, problems and needs as I
went along.

From what I can gather from your comments about harvesting all sorts of data, it
sounds like there could be a huge amount of 'orphan' material involved.

Ray

> It could be done either as shareware, or a trial version. Or it could be
done as an open source project

If you are that keen, why not go over to sourceforge and start something?

Kerry

On 28 Nov 2009 at 21:50, ray_murphy aus wrote:

> --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@...> wrote:

> > 1. The need for an event-based database program for genealogists,
> > historians, biographers etc.

> I'm trying to help out here by continuing the discussion - hoping that it will
> make your idea clearer for the rest of us.
>
> I spent several months (as an amateur programmer) making two different
> programs - one in MS Access and the other in Visual Basic, but they were
> nowhere near as complex as your idea sounds, even though both programs store
> literally any type of event, relationship (family, business, social etc), plus
> any characteristic or quality that one could ever imagine for any given person
> or entity, including animals.
>
> The reason those two programs are not complex like your idea sounds, is
> because they are not relational databases. The event data etc is simply
> selected from the program's listboxes and the dates are entered with the
> keyboard and both go onto the entity's file card.
>
> If the programs don't have suitable selections, then a user can just create
> new categories on the fly and they become part of the program - so those new
> categories don't have to be typed in repeatedly.
>
> I'd suggest after going this far with my own programs, that unless there is a
> clear demand for a certain type of data to be gathered, then just get SOME
> sort of program started, and see what is needed as real data is gradually
> entered.  That's all I did - and I kept seeing new opportunities, problems and
> needs as I went along.

I have got SOME sort of program started, which I use tio collect data.

I've actually got several started, not as relational databases.

One is a family event database, which I have entered in a flat-file text
database.

This is the data structure (field list)

Name of structure: EVENTS
Description line (optional): New Events structure
Record ID field(s): ID
Order key field(s): EVDATE

Type    LABEL   NAME    INDEX   SORT    EMPHASIS  for each field
F/1     ID      *       T       2       1
F/2     ED      EVDATE  T       4       1
F/3     EP      EVPLACE Y       9       1
F/4     EV      EVENT   Y       9       1
F/5     EN      EVNOTE  K       9       1
F/6     PE      PEOPLE  Y       9       1
F/7     SO      SOURCE  Y       9       1
F/8     DN      DOCNUM  Y       2       1
F/9     NO      NOTES   K       9       1
F/10    CO      COMMENTS N
F/11    KE      KEYWORDS K      9       1
F/12    UD      UPDATE  T       4       2

Stop words: A AN AND BY FOR FROM IN OF ON THE TO WITH

The disadvantage is that the PEOPLE field is a repeating field. There can be
many people associated with a single event, and there can be many events
associated with one person.

That is what makes a relational database a better solution. One can then type
in a person once and an event once, and put the person's relationship to the
event in a link field.

One can then create reports for the events in a person's life, or the people
associated with a particular event.

> From what I can gather from your comments about harvesting all sorts of data,
> it sounds like there could be a huge amount of 'orphan' material involved.

If by "orphan" material you are referring to the need to type in the same
person's name in relation to numerous events in a "flat-file" database, yes,
that is true, and that's why a relational database might be better.


--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: shayes@...
   Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
     Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
     Fax: 086-548-2525

--- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@...> wrote:
>
> On 28 Nov 2009 at 21:50, ray_murphy aus wrote:
>
> > --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@> wrote:
>
[.....]

> > I'd suggest after going this far with my own programs, that unless there is
a
> > clear demand for a certain type of data to be gathered, then just get SOME
> > sort of program started, and see what is needed as real data is gradually
> > entered.  That's all I did - and I kept seeing new opportunities, problems
and
> > needs as I went along.
>
> I have got SOME sort of program started, which I use to collect data.
>
> I've actually got several started, not as relational databases.
>
> One is a family event database, which I have entered in a flat-file text
> database.
>
> This is the data structure (field list)
>
> Name of structure: EVENTS
> Description line (optional): New Events structure
> Record ID field(s): ID
> Order key field(s): EVDATE
>
> Type    LABEL   NAME    INDEX   SORT    EMPHASIS  for each field
> F/1     ID      *       T       2       1
> F/2     ED      EVDATE  T       4       1
> F/3     EP      EVPLACE Y       9       1
> F/4     EV      EVENT   Y       9       1
> F/5     EN      EVNOTE  K       9       1
> F/6     PE      PEOPLE  Y       9       1
> F/7     SO      SOURCE  Y       9       1
> F/8     DN      DOCNUM  Y       2       1
> F/9     NO      NOTES   K       9       1
> F/10    CO      COMMENTS N
> F/11    KE      KEYWORDS K      9       1
> F/12    UD      UPDATE  T       4       2
>
> Stop words: A AN AND BY FOR FROM IN OF ON THE TO WITH
>
> The disadvantage is that the PEOPLE field is a repeating field. There can be
> many people associated with a single event, and there can be many events
> associated with one person.

RM: Virtual file cards are needed so that names are not duplicated - so to state
the obvious, it needs a master list (or index) of Names which can be clicked-on
to bring up each file card.
That's easy to do in Visual Basic or MS Access or most other programs
from what I can gather.

Once those virtual file cards are in place, all events (and their dates) could
be added to each involved-person's file card with a few mouse clicks. For
example for a category like "Present at Marriage Event - St Marks church 14 Nov
1883" could be typed in as a new Event, then you just whizz down the index from
A - Z and click on the name of each person who attended (which brings up their
file card)
and then click on that Event to add it or anything else like source.

A relational database couldn't do it any faster because it would still need to
receive the same input from the person entering the data. It would be a
different if a relational database was going to figure out and record highly
irrelevant things like "Cousin attended marriage at St Marks" - which would be a
strange genealogical type of connection to an event.

>That is what makes a relational database a better solution. One can >then type
in a person once and an event once, and put the person's >relationship to the
event in a link field.
>
>One can then create reports for the events in a person's life, or >the people
associated with a particular event.

RM: But that's easy to do without using a relational database - by either:
(a) printing a person's file card - showing all their events etc, or
(b) printing the Event and seeing the names of all those who were there.

Also - if St Marks was a "busy church" for a particular family, there could be a
whole string of events listed for it - and everyone in the database who ever had
anything to do with St Marks could easily be listed in a final printout in:
* Name order
* Event type (christening, marriage, or current pastor, minister etc)
* Date order

I suppose a lot depends on what the printouts or on-screen summaries would be
used for - and what sort of information is desirable to have. For example in the
above case, where a particular church was prominent for many years, a summary of
all known events connected with it may well show which minister probably signed
a register if the signature was hard to read.

> > From what I can gather from your comments about harvesting all sorts of
data,
> > it sounds like there could be a huge amount of 'orphan' material involved.
>
> If by "orphan" material you are referring to the need to type in the same
> person's name in relation to numerous events in a "flat-file" database, yes,
> that is true, and that's why a relational database might be better.

I was thinking about the wholesale inclusion of any and every event that
semi-automated internet harvesting could yield. Sure, it would help to join a
few dots that would otherwise be missed, but there could be umpteen thousands of
events that were connected to only one person - and they would start clogging up
the Event index.


Ray

--- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Kerry Raymond" <kerry.raymond@...> wrote:
>
>
> > It could be done either as shareware, or a trial version. Or it could be
> done as an open source project
>
> If you are that keen, why not go over to sourceforge and start something?
>
> Kerry

RM: It sounds like it's mostly the concept that needs to be developed through
discussion and collaboration, rather than computer coding of it. Once some clear
requirements are found it's not hard to write a program and a user-friendly
interface for it - unless the requirements are very complex and a user needs to
read a manual to operate the thing.

Ray

--- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@...> wrote:
>
> On 28 Nov 2009 at 21:50, ray_murphy aus wrote:
>
> > --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@> wrote:
>
[......]

> I have got SOME sort of program started, which I use tio collect data.
>
> I've actually got several started, not as relational databases.
>
> One is a family event database, which I have entered in a flat-file text
> database.
>
> This is the data structure (field list)
>
> Name of structure: EVENTS
> Description line (optional): New Events structure
> Record ID field(s): ID
> Order key field(s): EVDATE
>
> Type    LABEL   NAME    INDEX   SORT    EMPHASIS  for each field
> F/1     ID      *       T       2       1
> F/2     ED      EVDATE  T       4       1
> F/3     EP      EVPLACE Y       9       1
> F/4     EV      EVENT   Y       9       1
> F/5     EN      EVNOTE  K       9       1
> F/6     PE      PEOPLE  Y       9       1
> F/7     SO      SOURCE  Y       9       1
> F/8     DN      DOCNUM  Y       2       1
> F/9     NO      NOTES   K       9       1
> F/10    CO      COMMENTS N
> F/11    KE      KEYWORDS K      9       1
> F/12    UD      UPDATE  T       4       2
>
> Stop words: A AN AND BY FOR FROM IN OF ON THE TO WITH
>
> The disadvantage is that the PEOPLE field is a repeating field. There can be
> many people associated with a single event, and there can be many events
> associated with one person. [....]

I've just made a very small, new, stand alone application for entering event
data rapidly if you want to try it out to see if it could be knocked into shape
somehow for genealogy.

It will work on Win XP and later and requires a gedcom to be copied an re-named
and placed on C Drive so it can read all the names to form a database.

It writes only one file - a text file of the names and the events + dates that
are entered. Nothing else at all goes on your PC. It's time-limited for 3 months
so that old prototypes are not floating around for years and it's not for
distribution. It displays a summary of all the categories (the ones in your
Access program) and the number of people who are listed with each one.

It also does a search for any category - either the built-in ones or any new
ones that are added on the fly - then displays the names of each person who had
it, plus the event and date.

I was thinking it might be easier to make some more progress with your Event
Database idea if we had something concrete to work with that anyone could use
without using MSAccess.

Even though there is potential with this, I still see a big gap between
genealogy programs and a separate database.

I can email it to you, but with many PC's not accepting exe programs, I'd have
to change the extension from .exe to say .exm so it will go through - then ou
change it back to make it work (which is easy).

Ray

On 29 Nov 2009 at 7:15, ray_murphy aus wrote:

> --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@...> wrote:
> > The disadvantage is that the PEOPLE field is a repeating field. There can be
> > many people associated with a single event, and there can be many events
> > associated with one person.

> RM: Virtual file cards are needed so that names are not duplicated - so to
> state the obvious, it needs a master list (or index) of Names which can be
> clicked-on to bring up each file card. That's easy to do in Visual Basic or MS
> Access or most other programs from what I can gather.

I'm not sure what you mean by a "virtual file card".

How does that differ from a table, and what are the advantages of using one?

> Once those virtual file cards are in place, all events (and their dates) could
> be added to each involved-person's file card with a few mouse clicks. For
> example for a category like "Present at Marriage Event - St Marks church 14
> Nov 1883" could be typed in as a new Event, then you just whizz down the index
> from A - Z and click on the name of each person who attended (which brings up
> their file card) and then click on that Event to add it or anything else like
> source.
>
> A relational database couldn't do it any faster because it would still need to
> receive the same input from the person entering the data. It would be a
> different if a relational database was going to figure out and record highly
> irrelevant things like "Cousin attended marriage at St Marks" - which would be
> a strange genealogical type of connection to an event.

As far as I am aware MS Access IS a relational database program that allows
you to create and link tables. I've posted a model of the kind of tables and
links I envisage in the "Files" section of this forum's web page.

> >That is what makes a relational database a better solution. One can >then
> >type in a person once and an event once, and put the person's >relationship
> >to the event in a link field.
> >
> >One can then create reports for the events in a person's life, or >the people
> >associated with a particular event.
>
> RM: But that's easy to do without using a relational database - by either: (a)
> printing a person's file card - showing all their events etc, or (b) printing
> the Event and seeing the names of all those who were there.

Again, I'm not sure what is the difference between a table and a "file card",
and what the advantage is of using the latter rather than the former.

> Also - if St Marks was a "busy church" for a particular family, there could be
> a whole string of events listed for it - and everyone in the database who ever
> had anything to do with St Marks could easily be listed in a final printout
> in: * Name order * Event type (christening, marriage, or current pastor,
> minister etc) * Date order
>
> I suppose a lot depends on what the printouts or on-screen summaries would be
> used for - and what sort of information is desirable to have. For example in
> the above case, where a particular church was prominent for many years, a
> summary of all known events connected with it may well show which minister
> probably signed a register if the signature was hard to read.

In my schema, St Mark's Church could be entered as an "organisation" in the
"Organisations" table, and events listed as linked to it could be used to
compile a parish history, if that was what was wanted.

> > > From what I can gather from your comments about harvesting all sorts of
> > > data, it sounds like there could be a huge amount of 'orphan' material
> > > involved.
> >
> > If by "orphan" material you are referring to the need to type in the same
> > person's name in relation to numerous events in a "flat-file" database, yes,
> > that is true, and that's why a relational database might be better.
>
> I was thinking about the wholesale inclusion of any and every event that
> semi-automated internet harvesting could yield. Sure, it would help to join a
> few dots that would otherwise be missed, but there could be umpteen thousands
> of events that were connected to only one person - and they would start
> clogging up the Event index.

I wasn't thinking of that particularly, but I suppose that might be opne
application.


--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: shayes@...
   Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
     Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
     Fax: 086-548-2525

On 29 Nov 2009 at 7:32, ray_murphy aus wrote:

> --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Kerry Raymond" <kerry.raymond@...> wrote: > >
> > > It could be done either as shareware, or a trial version. Or it could be >
> done as an open source project > > If you are that keen, why not go over to
> sourceforge and start something? > > Kerry
>
> RM: It sounds like it's mostly the concept that needs to be developed through
> discussion and collaboration, rather than computer coding of it.

Exactly



--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: shayes@...
   Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
     Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
     Fax: 086-548-2525

--- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@...> wrote:
>
> On 29 Nov 2009 at 7:15, ray_murphy aus wrote:
>
> > --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@> wrote:
> > > The disadvantage is that the PEOPLE field is a repeating field. There can
be
> > > many people associated with a single event, and there can be many events
> > > associated with one person.
>
> > RM: Virtual file cards are needed so that names are not duplicated - so to
> > state the obvious, it needs a master list (or index) of Names which can be
> > clicked-on to bring up each file card. That's easy to do in Visual Basic or
MS
> > Access or most other programs from what I can gather.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean by a "virtual file card".

RM: Don't worry, it's not another new term to learn. I was just referring to a
visible filecard.

>
> How does that differ from a table, and what are the advantages of using one?

RM: Before I go any further here, I'm no expert with any of this stuff - far
from it, but the software I've made for my own non-genie projects has all worked
ok, so I thought I might be able to help - especially while there is not much
other input.

Advantages of 'file cards' over tables:
According to one of the Microsoft experts we shouldn't even be using
tables for data entry. Apparently they are mostly used for background
storage of the data - and it is forms (containing the same information) that
should be used instead - and non-programmer users of a database should never be
allowed anywhere ~near~ tables.

Of course sometimes a small table is built in to a form - especially for the 
'file cards' I was referring to. If we were not using them we might be using
listboxes in their place.

> > Once those virtual file cards are in place, all events (and their dates)
could
> > be added to each involved-person's file card with a few mouse clicks. For
> > example for a category like "Present at Marriage Event - St Marks church 14
> > Nov 1883" could be typed in as a new Event, then you just whizz down the
index
> > from A - Z and click on the name of each person who attended (which brings
up
> > their file card) and then click on that Event to add it or anything else
like
> > source.
> >
> > A relational database couldn't do it any faster because it would still need
to
> > receive the same input from the person entering the data. It would be a
> > different if a relational database was going to figure out and record highly
> > irrelevant things like "Cousin attended marriage at St Marks" - which would
be
> > a strange genealogical type of connection to an event.
>
> As far as I am aware MS Access IS a relational database program that allows
> you to create and link tables. I've posted a model of the kind of tables and
> links I envisage in the "Files" section of this forum's web page.

RM: Yes, MS Access does a great job with all of that - and that is what is
needed to have automatic and accurate updating of family relationship
information that is scattered all over the database, however I'm still not
seeing a need for such sophistication for events (and similar types of things
like illnesses or causes of death etc).

If lots of events were to be included in an existing genealogy program, it might
be necessary or valuable to have some new relationships automatically handled
for us, but as things stand, most people are not even interested in talking
about events - let alone suggesting good ways to handle them or express personal
preferences for dealing with event add-ons.

As you can see, I'm actually interested in the recording of events but I still
cannot visualise many situations where event information could be used for
genealogy or how it can be handled easily by the average user - so it looks like
we need some examples to motivate us.

>
> > >That is what makes a relational database a better solution. One can >then
> > >type in a person once and an event once, and put the person's >relationship
> > >to the event in a link field.
> > >
> > >One can then create reports for the events in a person's life, or >the
people
> > >associated with a particular event.
> >
> > RM: But that's easy to do without using a relational database - by either:
(a)
> > printing a person's file card - showing all their events etc, or (b)
printing
> > the Event and seeing the names of all those who were there.
>
> Again, I'm not sure what is the difference between a table and a "file card",
> and what the advantage is of using the latter rather than the former.
>
> > Also - if St Marks was a "busy church" for a particular family, there could
be
> > a whole string of events listed for it - and everyone in the database who
ever
> > had anything to do with St Marks could easily be listed in a final printout
> > in: * Name order * Event type (christening, marriage, or current pastor,
> > minister etc) * Date order
> >
> > I suppose a lot depends on what the printouts or on-screen summaries would
be
> > used for - and what sort of information is desirable to have. For example in
> > the above case, where a particular church was prominent for many years, a
> > summary of all known events connected with it may well show which minister
> > probably signed a register if the signature was hard to read.
>
> In my schema, St Mark's Church could be entered as an "organisation" in the
> "Organisations" table, and events listed as linked to it could be used to
> compile a parish history, if that was what was wanted.

RM: That can be done easily with ordinary software code and without the complex
linking of anything in MS Access. It's just a matter of clicking on St Marks (at
x location) and clicking on names and clicking on events and typing (or
selecting) the dates. A relational database could of course do ~some~ of it
without human input but only where people spelled the name and location exactly
the same in the typed or harvested text, so it's easier and quicker to just
click on items.

[...]

Ray

On 30 Nov 2009 at 0:18, ray_murphy aus wrote:

> I've just made a very small, new, stand alone application for entering event
> data rapidly if you want to try it out to see if it could be knocked into
> shape somehow for genealogy.
>
> It will work on Win XP and later and requires a gedcom to be copied an
> re-named and placed on C Drive so it can read all the names to form a
> database.
>
> It writes only one file - a text file of the names and the events + dates that
> are entered. Nothing else at all goes on your PC. It's time-limited for 3
> months so that old prototypes are not floating around for years and it's not
> for distribution. It displays a summary of all the categories (the ones in
> your Access program) and the number of people who are listed with each one.

Why not upload it in the files section of the forum so that others can look
at it and comment too?

There is a specfial section for "try out" programs and things like that.


--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: shayes@...
   Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
     Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
     Fax: 086-548-2525

--- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@...> wrote:
>
> On 30 Nov 2009 at 0:18, ray_murphy aus wrote:
>
> > I've just made a very small, new, stand alone application for entering event
> > data rapidly if you want to try it out to see if it could be knocked into
> > shape somehow for genealogy.
> >
[....]

>Why not upload it in the files section of the forum so that others can >look at
it and comment too?

RM: Mainly because I don't like wondering if anyone on the planet will ever
respond. I put lots of things on the net for viewing or downloading, but rarely
if feedback is being sought.

I've just uploaded it and will leave it there for a short time.

Ray

On 30 Nov 2009 at 14:05, ray_murphy aus wrote:

> --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@...> wrote:
> >
> > On 30 Nov 2009 at 0:18, ray_murphy aus wrote:
> >
> > > I've just made a very small, new, stand alone application for entering
> > > event data rapidly if you want to try it out to see if it could be knocked
> > > into shape somehow for genealogy.
> > >
> [....]
>
> >Why not upload it in the files section of the forum so that others can >look
> >at it and comment too?
>
> RM: Mainly because I don't like wondering if anyone on the planet will ever
> respond. I put lots of things on the net for viewing or downloading, but
> rarely if feedback is being sought.
>
> I've just uploaded it and will leave it there for a short time.

OK, I downloaded it and had a look at it, but didn't manage to get it to
work.

It seemed to make a hash of the GEDCOM file, mixing up people and sources.

When I tried to save it, it reported "subscript out of range"


--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: shayes@...
   Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
     Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
     Fax: 086-548-2525