Just a reminder of the genealogical software discussion forum on YahooGroups

In is a good place for

* discussing programs you are using, and how to get the best out of them
* discussing programs you would like to see
* discussing improvements you would like to see in existing programs
* collaborating in developing programs that are useful for genealogists
* reviewing genealogy software
* announcing and commenting on new versions and programs
* anything else to do with computer programs used for genealogy

When discussing general software, such as word processors, spreadsheets,
databases etc., it is best to stick to the genealogical uses of those programs
-- but sharing ideas on how they can be used for genealogy is good.

Group Email Addresses
Post message:  gensoft@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe:  gensoft-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe:  gensoft-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
List owner:  gensoft-owner@yahoogroups.com

Group web site
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gensoft

Steve Hayes
Moderator of Genealogy Software Forum

Just a reminder of the genealogical software discussion forum on YahooGroups

In is a good place for

* discussing programs you are using, and how to get the best out of them
* discussing programs you would like to see
* discussing improvements you would like to see in existing programs
* collaborating in developing programs that are useful for genealogists
* reviewing genealogy software
* announcing and commenting on new versions and programs
* anything else to do with computer programs used for genealogy

When discussing general software, such as word processors, spreadsheets,
databases etc., it is best to stick to the genealogical uses of those programs
-- but sharing ideas on how they can be used for genealogy is good.

Group Email Addresses
Post message:  gensoft@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe:  gensoft-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe:  gensoft-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
List owner:  gensoft-owner@yahoogroups.com

Group web site
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gensoft

Steve Hayes
Moderator of Genealogy Software Forum

Just a reminder of the genealogical software discussion forum on YahooGroups

In is a good place for

* discussing programs you are using, and how to get the best out of them
* discussing programs you would like to see
* discussing improvements you would like to see in existing programs
* collaborating in developing programs that are useful for genealogists
* reviewing genealogy software
* announcing and commenting on new versions and programs
* anything else to do with computer programs used for genealogy

When discussing general software, such as word processors, spreadsheets,
databases etc., it is best to stick to the genealogical uses of those programs
-- but sharing ideas on how they can be used for genealogy is good.

Group Email Addresses
Post message:  gensoft@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe:  gensoft-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe:  gensoft-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
List owner:  gensoft-owner@yahoogroups.com

Group web site
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gensoft

Steve Hayes
Moderator of Genealogy Software Forum

Just a reminder of the genealogical software discussion forum on YahooGroups

In is a good place for

* discussing programs you are using, and how to get the best out of them
* discussing programs you would like to see
* discussing improvements you would like to see in existing programs
* collaborating in developing programs that are useful for genealogists
* reviewing genealogy software
* announcing and commenting on new versions and programs
* anything else to do with computer programs used for genealogy

When discussing general software, such as word processors, spreadsheets,
databases etc., it is best to stick to the genealogical uses of those programs
-- but sharing ideas on how they can be used for genealogy is good.

Group Email Addresses
Post message:  gensoft@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe:  gensoft-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe:  gensoft-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
List owner:  gensoft-owner@yahoogroups.com

Group web site
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gensoft

Steve Hayes
Moderator of Genealogy Software Forum

Enter your vote today!  A new poll has been created for the
gensoft group:

What general database software to you use for your genealogy-related research or
data, notes etc., or for developing applications.

   o MS Access
   o Open Office Base
   o MySql
   o AskSam
   o Paradox
   o Other


To vote, please visit the following web page:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gensoft/surveys?id=2189477

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!

On Saturday 16. May 2009, gensoft@yahoogroups.com wrote:

>What general database software to you use for your genealogy-related
> research or data, notes etc., or for developing applications.
>
>  o MS Access
>  o Open Office Base
>  o MySql
>  o AskSam
>  o Paradox
>  o Other

Where is PostgreSQL?
--
Leif Biberg Kristensen | Registered Linux User #338009
Me And My Database: http://solumslekt.org/blog/

On 16 May 2009 at 9:44, Leif B. Kristensen wrote:

> On Saturday 16. May 2009, gensoft@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>
> >What general database software to you use for your genealogy-related
> > research or data, notes etc., or for developing applications.
> >
> >  o MS Access
> >  o Open Office Base
> >  o MySql
> >  o AskSam
> >  o Paradox
> >  o Other
>
> Where is PostgreSQL?

I never heard of it -- but perhaps you could write soemthing about it and
tell us what you do with it!


--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: shayes@...
    Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
	 http://people.tribe.net/hayesstw
     Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727

On Saturday 16. May 2009, Steve Hayes wrote:
>On 16 May 2009 at 9:44, Leif B. Kristensen wrote:
>> On Saturday 16. May 2009, gensoft@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>> >What general database software to you use for your
>> > genealogy-related research or data, notes etc., or for developing
>> > applications.
>> >
>> >  o MS Access
>> >  o Open Office Base
>> >  o MySql
>> >  o AskSam
>> >  o Paradox
>> >  o Other
>>
>> Where is PostgreSQL?
>
>I never heard of it -- but perhaps you could write soemthing about it
> and tell us what you do with it!

PostgreSQL (http://www.postgresql.org) is a very advanced open source
RDBMS, in the same league as commercial alternatives like Oracle, DB/2
or MSSQL. It's BSD licensed, which means that you can do absolutely
whatever you want with it, no strings attached. And it's totally rock
solid.

I've written three articles about the migration from The Master
Genealogist to my own home-stitched application:

http://solumslekt.org/forays/tmg.php
http://solumslekt.org/forays/blue.php
http://solumslekt.org/forays/exodus.php

There's also an «executive overview» at this page:

http://solumslekt.org/note_en.php

In my blog http://solumslekt.org/blog/ I try to describe the development
in some detail.
--
Leif Biberg Kristensen | Registered Linux User #338009
Me And My Database: http://solumslekt.org/blog/

On 16 May 2009 at 13:01, Leif B. Kristensen wrote:

> On Saturday 16. May 2009, Steve Hayes wrote:
> >On 16 May 2009 at 9:44, Leif B. Kristensen wrote:

> >> Where is PostgreSQL?
> >
> >I never heard of it -- but perhaps you could write soemthing about it
> > and tell us what you do with it!
>
> PostgreSQL (http://www.postgresql.org) is a very advanced open source
> RDBMS, in the same league as commercial alternatives like Oracle, DB/2
> or MSSQL. It's BSD licensed, which means that you can do absolutely
> whatever you want with it, no strings attached. And it's totally rock
> solid.
>
> I've written three articles about the migration from The Master
> Genealogist to my own home-stitched application:
>
> http://solumslekt.org/forays/tmg.php
> http://solumslekt.org/forays/blue.php
> http://solumslekt.org/forays/exodus.php
>
> There's also an «executive overview» at this page:
>
> http://solumslekt.org/note_en.php
>
> In my blog http://solumslekt.org/blog/ I try to describe the development in
> some detail. -- Leif Biberg Kristensen | Registered Linux User #338009 Me And
> My Database: http://solumslekt.org/blog/

Thanks very much -- it sounds very interesting, and your articles are very
good -- thanks for that.

When I've studied them in more detail I might come back to you with a few
questions.


--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: shayes@...
    Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
	 http://people.tribe.net/hayesstw
     Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727

Just a reminder of the genealogical software discussion forum on YahooGroups

In is a good place for

* discussing programs you are using, and how to get the best out of them
* discussing programs you would like to see
* discussing improvements you would like to see in existing programs
* collaborating in developing programs that are useful for genealogists
* reviewing genealogy software
* announcing and commenting on new versions and programs
* anything else to do with computer programs used for genealogy

When discussing general software, such as word processors, spreadsheets,
databases etc., it is best to stick to the genealogical uses of those programs
-- but sharing ideas on how they can be used for genealogy is good.

Group Email Addresses
Post message:  gensoft@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe:  gensoft-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe:  gensoft-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
List owner:  gensoft-owner@yahoogroups.com

Group web site
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gensoft

Steve Hayes
Moderator of Genealogy Software Forum

Just a reminder of the genealogical software discussion forum on YahooGroups

In is a good place for

* discussing programs you are using, and how to get the best out of them
* discussing programs you would like to see
* discussing improvements you would like to see in existing programs
* collaborating in developing programs that are useful for genealogists
* reviewing genealogy software
* announcing and commenting on new versions and programs
* anything else to do with computer programs used for genealogy

When discussing general software, such as word processors, spreadsheets,
databases etc., it is best to stick to the genealogical uses of those programs
-- but sharing ideas on how they can be used for genealogy is good.

Group Email Addresses
Post message:  gensoft@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe:  gensoft-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe:  gensoft-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
List owner:  gensoft-owner@yahoogroups.com

Group web site
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gensoft

Steve Hayes
Moderator of Genealogy Software Forum

On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 00:27:43 -0400, in soc.history.moderated Steve Hayes
<hayesmstw@...> wrote:

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 16:14:07 -0400, phuile <phuile@...> wrote:

>I am looking for a chronology software that allows me to input dates
>and notes on historical events and can store these data and display it
>in a timeline or similar ways. The graphical display is not as
>important as the fact that I can insert dates and events randomly and
>the software/database would store them and display them in a
>chronological sequence. Search function is important too. I would also
>need to be able to say, search for a period and see what events are
>around that period.
>Does anyone know of anything like this? I know of several "timeline"
>programs but they are too graphically and not as much a notes-link-to-
>database type of tool I need.

I have long felt the need for such software, which I think would be useful for
historians, biographers, family historians, local historians and others.

I tried to develop such a database in MS Access, and hoped that people who
were more into softwere development would help me refine and test it, but i
couldn't find anyone else who was interested.

I've discussed it in the past in soc.genealogy.computing.

The database has three main tables -- Events, People and Places.

Events are entered so that they can be sorted chronologically, with a brief
description.

The Places database could show what events took place in a particular place.

The People database would show people involved in the event, and in what
capacity they were involved -- participant, witness, host, guest etc.

I still feel the need for such a program, and I'm sure many others would find
it useful too, but I'm not a software developer, so I can just describe the
kind of thing I want.

In the absence of that, however, I've found askSam to be a useful program for
research notes.

http://www.asksam.com/





--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

--- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, Steve Hayes <hayesstw@...> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 00:27:43 -0400, in soc.history.moderated Steve Hayes
> <hayesmstw@...> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 16:14:07 -0400, phuile <phuile@...> wrote:
>
> >I am looking for a chronology software that allows me to input dates
> >and notes on historical events and can store these data and display it
> >in a timeline or similar ways. The graphical display is not as
> >important as the fact that I can insert dates and events randomly and
> >the software/database would store them and display them in a
> >chronological sequence. Search function is important too. I would also
> >need to be able to say, search for a period and see what events are
> >around that period.
> >Does anyone know of anything like this? I know of several "timeline"
> >programs but they are too graphically and not as much a notes-link-to-
> >database type of tool I need.
>
> I have long felt the need for such software, which I think would be useful for
> historians, biographers, family historians, local historians and others.
>
> I tried to develop such a database in MS Access, and hoped that people who
> were more into softwere development would help me refine and test it, but i
> couldn't find anyone else who was interested.
>
> I've discussed it in the past in soc.genealogy.computing.
>
> The database has three main tables -- Events, People and Places.
>
> Events are entered so that they can be sorted chronologically, with a brief
> description.
>
> The Places database could show what events took place in a particular place.
>
> The People database would show people involved in the event, and in what
> capacity they were involved -- participant, witness, host, guest etc.
>
> I still feel the need for such a program, and I'm sure many others would find
> it useful too, but I'm not a software developer, so I can just describe the
> kind of thing I want.
>
> In the absence of that, however, I've found askSam to be a useful program for
> research notes.
>
> http://www.asksam.com/

It wouldn't be hard to write a Visual Basic stand-alone program to do this. I'm
no expert with VB but I'll help to get the ball rolling.

What about a few of us trying to design something on this group?

On 22 Jul 2009 at 9:24, Ray Murphy wrote:

> --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, Steve Hayes <hayesstw@...> wrote:
> > I've discussed it in the past in soc.genealogy.computing.
> >
> > The database has three main tables -- Events, People and Places.
> >
> > Events are entered so that they can be sorted chronologically, with a brief
> > description.
> >
> > The Places database could show what events took place in a particular place.
> >
> >
> > The People database would show people involved in the event, and in what
> > capacity they were involved -- participant, witness, host, guest etc.
> >
> > I still feel the need for such a program, and I'm sure many others would
> > find it useful too, but I'm not a software developer, so I can just describe
> > the kind of thing I want.

> It wouldn't be hard to write a Visual Basic stand-alone program to do this.
> I'm no expert with VB but I'll help to get the ball rolling.
>
> What about a few of us trying to design something on this group?

I think that that would be an excellent idea!

If you look at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gensoft/files/DevSoft/

you will find Access tables and a description of them for such a program,
which could be a starting point for discussion and development.


--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: shayes@...
   Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
     Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
     Fax: 086-548-2525

--- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@...> wrote:
> On 22 Jul 2009 at 9:24, Ray Murphy wrote:
> > --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, Steve Hayes <hayesstw@> wrote:
>>>I've discussed it in the past in soc.genealogy.computing.
>>>
>>>The database has three main tables -- Events, People and Places.
>>>
>>>Events are entered so that they can be sorted chronologically, >>>with a
brief description.
>>>
>>>The Places database could show what events took place in a >>>particular
place.
>>>
>>>
>>>The People database would show people involved in the event, and >>>in what
capacity they were involved -- participant, witness, host, >>>guest etc.
>>>
>>>I still feel the need for such a program, and I'm sure many others >>>would
find it useful too, but I'm not a software developer, so I >>>can just describe
the kind of thing I want.
>
>>RM: It wouldn't be hard to write a Visual Basic stand-alone program >>to do
this. I'm no expert with VB but I'll help to get the ball >>rolling.
>>
>>What about a few of us trying to design something on this group?
>
>I think that that would be an excellent idea!
>
>If you look at
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gensoft/files/DevSoft/
>
>you will find Access tables and a description of them for such a >program,
which could be a starting point for discussion and >development.

RM: I've had a look at those two files. Yes, we could build something that is
very easy to use in MS Access, but most people wouldn't be able to open it
because they don't have MS Access or wouldn't be getting a free runtime version
of it. In any case it might be an overkill for what the average user may need or
want.

I think the next step should be for some of us to start drawing up some
imaginary scenarios so we can see what might be typically done, and how it it
supposed to be combined with genealogy programs - if at all.

We would need:
(1) A clickable Index of people's names, with provision for a minimun of 32,000
names to start with, so that we can open a file card for that person quickly.

(2) A clickable-List of event types so that the event is placed on the file card
instantly.

(3) A clickable-List of Person-relationships so that the person-type is placed
on the file card instantly - such as mother, father, sister, pastor, priest etc.

(4) A Date-Entry line in MM,DD,YYYY or DD,MM,YYYY or alternatively 3 small list
boxes where DMY are selected.

(5) A Place entry box or boxes, i.e. place, city, state, country

(6) A user-defined Place-Listbox so that the user doesn't have to keep typing
the same places all the time.

(7) A Text-Entry box for biographies and detailed descriptions etc.

(8) A human readable master CSV file -  i.e. a text file with all "fields" such
as name, date, place etc, separated by commas. [CSV stands for Comma Separated
Values]. This would make the whole thing visible in MS Excel and MS Access and
similar programs - as well as Wordpad etc.

On 22 Jul 2009 at 13:12, Ray Murphy wrote:

> RM: I've had a look at those two files. Yes, we could build something that is
> very easy to use in MS Access, but most people wouldn't be able to open it
> because they don't have MS Access or wouldn't be getting a free runtime
> version of it. In any case it might be an overkill for what the average user
> may need or want.

I thought it was possible to open such files with a program written in Visual
Basic.

But even if it isn't, the main purpose of the Access tobles is for discussing
the fields and relationships, and seeing which is the best way of doing
things.

Another possibility might be to use the Open Office Base program, which is
free, but a stand-alone app written in Visual Basic would be better.

> I think the next step should be for some of us to start drawing up some
> imaginary scenarios so we can see what might be typically done, and how it it
> supposed to be combined with genealogy programs - if at all.

I don't think it should be combined with genealogy programs, though it would
be useful if it could import data from genealogy programs (via GEDCOM?) to
save retyping, and also export data in a form that could be exported to
genealogy programs.

But the essential feature of this program is not that it is lineage-linked
but that it is event-based, and includes social relationships -- work
colleagues, friends, casual acquaintances etc. and even people that the
subject doesn't know at all -- for example, if the subject (of a biography)
witnessed a presidential inauguration ceremony, the president could be
included even if thee president and the subject had never spoken to each
other.

>
> We would need:
> (1) A clickable Index of people's names, with provision for a minimun of
> 32,000 names to start with, so that we can open a file card for that person
> quickly.
>
> (2) A clickable-List of event types so that the event is placed on the file
> card instantly.

> (3) A clickable-List of Person-relationships so that the person-type is placed
> on the file card instantly - such as mother, father, sister, pastor, priest
> etc.
>
> (4) A Date-Entry line in MM,DD,YYYY or DD,MM,YYYY or alternatively 3 small
> list boxes where DMY are selected.

In my sample tables I made the date field a text field, with dates to be
entered in the form YYYY-MM-DD, so that if the month and day are not known it
can still be sorted with a simple sort by entering something like 1372-00-00
or 1684-05-00. I know genealogy programs have other ways of dealing with the
problem, but those algorithms are beyond my computing skills.

>
> (5) A Place entry box or boxes, i.e. place, city, state, country

> (6) A user-defined Place-Listbox so that the user doesn't have to keep typing
> the same places all the time.

Yes, and a Memo field for description of the place, and notes of changes of
name, if any. It would be up to the user to decide which name to use, e.g.
Danzig or Gdansk.

> (7) A Text-Entry box for biographies and detailed descriptions etc.
>
> (8) A human readable master CSV file -  i.e. a text file with all "fields"
> such as name, date, place etc, separated by commas. [CSV stands for Comma
> Separated Values]. This would make the whole thing visible in MS Excel and MS
> Access and similar programs - as well as Wordpad etc.

Yes, and for import as well as export.



--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: shayes@...
   Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
     Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
     Fax: 086-548-2525

On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 11:05:20 -0400, in soc.history.moderated Steve Hayes
<hayesmstw@...> wrote:

On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 17:01:41 -0400, Marvin <physchem@...> wrote:

>phuile wrote:
>> I am looking for a chronology software that allows me to input dates
>> and notes on historical events and can store these data and display it
>> in a timeline or similar ways. The graphical display is not as
>> important as the fact that I can insert dates and events randomly and
>> the software/database would store them and display them in a
>> chronological sequence. Search function is important too. I would also
>> need to be able to say, search for a period and see what events are
>> around that period.
>> Does anyone know of anything like this? I know of several "timeline"
>> programs but they are too graphically and not as much a notes-link-to-
>> database type of tool I need.
>> Thanks for any advice.
>>
>I think it could be done with a spreadsheet, and a graphics
>program if the graphing capability of the spreadsheet
>software isn't adequate.

It can be done, provided one remembers to enter dates in a TEXT field (and not
as dates), in the format yyyy-mm-dd.

That means that if the month and day are not known, on can enter 1347-00-00,
for example, and it will still sort correctly.

Most spreadsheets cannot correctly handle dates in the date field for more
than a centurry ago, and they have problems with dates like c1500.

I have revived discussion of this in the genealogy software discussion forum
at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gensoft


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Just a reminder of the genealogical software discussion forum on YahooGroups

In is a good place for

* discussing programs you are using, and how to get the best out of them
* discussing programs you would like to see
* discussing improvements you would like to see in existing programs
* collaborating in developing programs that are useful for genealogists
* reviewing genealogy software
* announcing and commenting on new versions and programs
* anything else to do with computer programs used for genealogy

When discussing general software, such as word processors, spreadsheets,
databases etc., it is best to stick to the genealogical uses of those programs
-- but sharing ideas on how they can be used for genealogy is good.

Group Email Addresses
Post message:  gensoft@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe:  gensoft-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe:  gensoft-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
List owner:  gensoft-owner@yahoogroups.com

Group web site
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gensoft

Steve Hayes
Moderator of Genealogy Software Forum

On 21 May 2001 17:50:59 GMT, in soc.history.moderated jorn@... (Jorn
Barger) wrote:

Over on comp.ai.nat-lang (a newsgroup about trying to use Artificial
Intelligence to understand 'natural' languages, like English) I've been
trying to stir up interest in an "outline of history" project, using
something like XML...

The general idea would be to treat all history-webpages as timelines--
series of EVENT items, with each event having a DATE attribute, and
normally a PLACE and various PERSONs...

So something like XML (extensible markup language) could be used to
'tag' timeline entries (or even _sentences_ within long prose
descriptions of historical events).

   <EVENT
      DATE="1492.10.12"
      PERSON="Columbus.Christopher"
      PLACE="Caribbean.Bahamas"
      RELATIONSHIP="visited">
    1492: 12Oct: Columbus 'discovers' America
   </EVENT>

This will allow search-engine queries on dates (or range of dates) or
persons or places, etc, with the search-engine easily returning all
pages that fit the query...

But the hardest thing will be those RELATIONSHIPs-- that attribute has
to capture as much historical context as possible, but still use a fixed
and unambiguous vocabulary.

So a big priority is to sketch an _outline of history_ using limited
vocabulary: starting with migrations, and why groups migrate, and what
happens when they arrive-- relationships between neighboring groups,
like conquest or assimilation or whatever...

I have a very rough start at:

  http://www.robotwisdom.com/science/history.html

...but the research required to take it the next step is overwhelming
me!



--
  http://www.robotwisdom.com/  "Relentlessly intelligent
yet playful, polymathic in scope of interests, minimalist
but user-friendly design." --Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel

--

--
Steve Hayes
Web: http://hayesgreene.wordpress.com/
      http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/famhist1.htm
      http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7783/

Just a reminder of the genealogical software discussion forum on YahooGroups

In is a good place for

* discussing programs you are using, and how to get the best out of them
* discussing programs you would like to see
* discussing improvements you would like to see in existing programs
* collaborating in developing programs that are useful for genealogists
* reviewing genealogy software
* announcing and commenting on new versions and programs
* anything else to do with computer programs used for genealogy

When discussing general software, such as word processors, spreadsheets,
databases etc., it is best to stick to the genealogical uses of those programs
-- but sharing ideas on how they can be used for genealogy is good.

Group Email Addresses
Post message:  gensoft@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe:  gensoft-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe:  gensoft-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
List owner:  gensoft-owner@yahoogroups.com

Group web site
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gensoft

Steve Hayes
Moderator of Genealogy Software Forum

Just a reminder of the genealogical software discussion forum on YahooGroups

In is a good place for

* discussing programs you are using, and how to get the best out of them
* discussing programs you would like to see
* discussing improvements you would like to see in existing programs
* collaborating in developing programs that are useful for genealogists
* reviewing genealogy software
* announcing and commenting on new versions and programs
* anything else to do with computer programs used for genealogy

When discussing general software, such as word processors, spreadsheets,
databases etc., it is best to stick to the genealogical uses of those programs
-- but sharing ideas on how they can be used for genealogy is good.

Group Email Addresses
Post message:  gensoft@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe:  gensoft-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe:  gensoft-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
List owner:  gensoft-owner@yahoogroups.com

Group web site
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gensoft

Steve Hayes
Moderator of Genealogy Software Forum

Just a reminder of the genealogical software discussion forum on YahooGroups

In is a good place for

* discussing programs you are using, and how to get the best out of them
* discussing programs you would like to see
* discussing improvements you would like to see in existing programs
* collaborating in developing programs that are useful for genealogists
* reviewing genealogy software
* announcing and commenting on new versions and programs
* anything else to do with computer programs used for genealogy

When discussing general software, such as word processors, spreadsheets,
databases etc., it is best to stick to the genealogical uses of those programs
-- but sharing ideas on how they can be used for genealogy is good.

Group Email Addresses
Post message:  gensoft@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe:  gensoft-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe:  gensoft-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
List owner:  gensoft-owner@yahoogroups.com

Group web site
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gensoft

Steve Hayes
Moderator of Genealogy Software Forum

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the gensoft
group.

   File        : /Programs/Old Genealogy Uitilities/TTED22.ZIP
   Uploaded by : hayesstw <hayesstw@...>
   Description : Tiny Tafel editor

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gensoft/files/Programs/Old%20Genealogy%20Uitilitie\
s/TTED22.ZIP

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/forms/general.htmlfiles

Regards,

hayesstw <hayesstw@...>

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the gensoft
group.

   File        : /Programs/Old Genealogy Uitilities/FGC.ZIP
   Uploaded by : hayesstw <hayesstw@...>
   Description : Prints Family Group Sheets on 4x6 cards

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gensoft/files/Programs/Old%20Genealogy%20Uitilitie\
s/FGC.ZIP

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/forms/general.htmlfiles

Regards,

hayesstw <hayesstw@...>

John Allsopp (Author of Genota and Genota Forms) was visiting Johannesburg,
so I dropped in to see him and we had an interesting chat.

Three topics relevant to the Genealogy Software Furum came up:

1. The need for an event-based database program for genealogists, historians,
biographers etc.

2. John's own programs, Geneota and Genota Forms

3. Old utility programs for which there are no modern equivalents.

As a result, I've uploaded a few of these to the website of this forum, in
the hope that they may inspire some enterprising hackers to reverse engineer
them for modern hardware and software.

There were wones called Nameview and Namedrop that scanned BBS messages for
things like surnames of interest, and manipulated those messages to collect
them. They worked with Fido Technology Networks, but no one seems to have
written an equivalent that works with mailing lists, newsgroups, or web
forums.

There were utility that took data from genealogy programs (mainly PAF 2.x)
and printed family grtoup sheets on 3x5 or 4x6 cards.

That is FAR more useful than the stupid trick of software developers who
tried to make a computer screen look like a card index, which had all the
disadvantages and none of the advantages of the cards themselves.

But those utilities were written in DOS, and modern printers don't work with
DOS. So the utilities need to be rewritten to use modern programs and moder
hardware.

Tiny Tafel Genenrator -- which not only developed but matched Tiny Tafels.
Trouble is, it was written in Turbo Pascal, which doesn't work on fast
machines. You need a slow processor for it to run, under 500 Mhz, I think.

There are a few more there -- back in the old days we may have had less tyhan
we do now, but very often we could do more with the less we had.

So have a look at them, and see if you can reverse engineer them to produce
new versions.


--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: shayes@...
   Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
     Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
     Fax: 086-548-2525

I'm reposting this, because I made a hash of it the first time. Apart from
anything else, I called Dennis Allsopp John Allsopp -- apologies, Dennis! And
there were several other errors.

There's a fuller version, with pictures, links, etc, on my blog at:

http://hayesgreene.wordpress.com/2009/11/26/370/

Dennis Allsopp (Author of Genota and Genota Forms) was visiting Johannesburg, so
I dropped in to see him and we had an interesting chat.

Three topics relevant to the Genealogy Software Forum came up:

1. The need for an event-based database program for genealogists, historians,
biographers etc.

2. Dennis's own programs, Geneota and Genota Forms

3. Old utility programs for which there are no modern equivalents.

As a result, I've uploaded a few of these old utilities to the website of the
forum, in
the hope that they may inspire some enterprising hackers to reverse engineer
them for modern hardware and software.

There were utilities called Nameview and Namedrop that scanned BBS messages for
things like surnames of interest, and manipulated those messages to collect
them. They worked with Fido Technology Networks, but no one seems to have
written an equivalent that works with mailing lists, newsgroups, or web
forums.

There were utilities that took data from genealogy programs (mainly PAF 2.x)
and printed family grtoup sheets on 3x5 or 4x6 cards.

That is FAR more useful than the stupid trick of software developers who
tried to make a computer screen look like a card index, which had all the
disadvantages and none of the advantages of the cards themselves.

But most of those utilities were written in DOS, and modern printers don't work
with
DOS. So the utilities need to be rewritten to use modern programs and moder
hardware.

There was the Tiny Tafel Generator -- which not only developed but matched
Tiny Tafels. Trouble is, it was written in Turbo Pascal, which doesn't work
on fast machines. You need a slow processor for it to run, under 500 Mhz, I
think.

There are a few more there -- back in the old days we may have had less than
we do now, but very often we could do more with the less we had.

So have a look at them, and see if you can reverse engineer them to produce
new versions.

And see the blog post at

http://hayesgreene.wordpress.com/2009/11/26/370/

for more on the event-based program we discussed.

--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: shayes@...
   Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
     Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
     Fax: 086-548-2525

I'm new to the forum, but have a lot of programming experience (politically
correct term for old ;-)  My comments are in-line.

--- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@...> wrote:

> There were utilities called Nameview and Namedrop that scanned BBS messages
for
> things like surnames of interest, and manipulated those messages to collect
> them. They worked with Fido Technology Networks, but no one seems to have
> written an equivalent that works with mailing lists, newsgroups, or web
> forums.

Plain text (the Fido and other BBS formats) is relatively easy to parse.  Back
in DOS days, a guy I worked with was capturing the output of an online database
(in-house stuff for AT&T) to a text file via CrossTalk and using a dBASE script
someone else had written to process the captured data and produce reports (yes,
it was a case of "If the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a
nail").  I wrote a parser in compiled BASIC that trimmed the 2 hour process down
to less than a minute: convert text to CSV, import CSV into dBASE.

The current crop of HTML mail programs with multiple fonts and images (including
in-line ads, etc) is more complex to process - and there are a LOT more mail
programs.  Simple HTML mail is not nearly so complex as HTML mail generated by
Microsoft Word.  The same can be said for parsing web pages (including forums) -
some are much simpler (and closer to the HTML standards) than others.

The scan process is certainly possible: ReaderWare has book, CD, and video
database programs that collect the details of your collection from a barcode
scan (or manual entry) of the ISBN (books), LCCN (books) or UPC (CDs and video)
and then use that number in an online search of the likely sources of
information (Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Library of Congress, etc) - and it's all
done in Java.

> But most of those utilities were written in DOS, and modern printers don't
work with
> DOS. So the utilities need to be rewritten to use modern programs and modern
> hardware.

I still have a couple of ASCII-capable printers that work just fine with DOS
programs (and the output of the microprocessors I dabble with in retirement) -
an HP DeskJet 500 that I bought refurbished (with a 3 year warranty!) long long
ago and the refurb HP DeskJet 520 my younger daughter took to college a couple
of years later.  Yes, they are old, slow, loud, and big but they are truly
"built like a tank" and just keep running.  The number of fax machines built on
the HP 500-series platform have kept the #26 cartridge alive (at least in
refilled units).

The ideal printer for cards was a tractor-feed dot matrix, but those are in
short supply - except the bigger ones, used for multi-part forms.

New versions of these programs can certainly be produced; it's a matter of
finding someone with the proper skills and sufficient interest in genealogy. 
I'm more likely to spend time with my grandkids....

John

Comments interspersed.

> 1. The need for an event-based database program for genealogists, historians,
> biographers etc.

Well, for genealogists, The Master Genealogist is event-based. And since the
user can customise the events, I am guessing it could be tweaked to support
historians and biographers more generally.

Apart from family history, I don't think the marketplace for other forms of
history is particularly large, so a low-cost commercial offering seems unlikely,
unless it can be done as a tweak to something else. For example, animal breeders
use family history software increasingly to track their animal pedigrees because
family history software is cheap by comparison to the specialist breeder
software offering costing thousands of dollars (or so I have been told).


> There were wones called Nameview and Namedrop that scanned BBS messages for
> things like surnames of interest, and manipulated those messages to collect
> them. They worked with Fido Technology Networks, but no one seems to have
> written an equivalent that works with mailing lists, newsgroups, or web
> forums.

> Tiny Tafel Genenrator -- which not only developed but matched Tiny Tafels.

I think the modern "solution" is to let Google loose on message archive and then
use Google search. Since you can ask Google to search over only a specific site,
you can probably approximate the same effect.

However, a specialist genealogy search tool probably can exploit the convention
of SURNAMES being in upper case or the interpretation of Tiny Tafels which
Google cannot. However, there are already a number of specialist Google
searches, e.g. Google scholar, that do treat content as more than just a bunch
of key words (that is, exploit specific structures and conventions), so if
Google thought the interest was there and put a bit of their horsepower into it
(they employ some very smart people), the result could be amazingly good.

On 27 Nov 2009 at 22:00, Kerry wrote:

> Comments interspersed.
>
> > 1. The need for an event-based database program for genealogists,
> > historians, biographers etc.
>
> Well, for genealogists, The Master Genealogist is event-based. And since the
> user can customise the events, I am guessing it could be tweaked to support
> historians and biographers more generally.

So people keep telling me, but I've never managed to discover it for myself,
since every time I've tried to use TMG it has crashed my computer. I know
some people manage to use it, but I am not one of the lucky ones.

> Apart from family history, I don't think the marketplace for other forms of
> history is particularly large, so a low-cost commercial offering seems
> unlikely, unless it can be done as a tweak to something else. For example,
> animal breeders use family history software increasingly to track their animal
> pedigrees because family history software is cheap by comparison to the
> specialist breeder software offering costing thousands of dollars (or so I
> have been told).

It could be done either as shareware, or a trial version. Or it could be done
as an open source project, which might be better, as more and different kinds
of users could contribute it -- no one person can imagine all the
circumstances in which it might be used.

> > There were wones called Nameview and Namedrop that scanned BBS messages for
> > things like surnames of interest, and manipulated those messages to collect
> > them. They worked with Fido Technology Networks, but no one seems to have
> > written an equivalent that works with mailing lists, newsgroups, or web
> > forums.
>
> > Tiny Tafel Genenrator -- which not only developed but matched Tiny Tafels.
>
> I think the modern "solution" is to let Google loose on message archive and
> then use Google search. Since you can ask Google to search over only a
> specific site, you can probably approximate the same effect.
>
> However, a specialist genealogy search tool probably can exploit the
> convention of SURNAMES being in upper case or the interpretation of Tiny
> Tafels which Google cannot. However, there are already a number of specialist
> Google searches, e.g. Google scholar, that do treat content as more than just
> a bunch of key words (that is, exploit specific structures and conventions),
> so if Google thought the interest was there and put a bit of their horsepower
> into it (they employ some very smart people), the result could be amazingly
> good.

Yes such searches are useful, and can, of course, search for old messages as
well as current ones, if these are archived somewhere.

But I would subscribe to a lot more mailing lists if I could download only
the messages that I was interested in.


--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: shayes@...
   Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
     Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
     Fax: 086-548-2525

Picking up on the comment...

>But I would subscribe to a lot more mailing lists if
>I could download only the messages that I was interested in.

For me I use the RSS feed for the newsgroup or mailing list.  Google Reader the
provides options for tagging messages.  Or if you want to go further use
something like Evernote with Google Reader to download your own copy of a
particular post.

I actually use the RSS feed for many more Groups than I subscribe to just
because I have a passing geographic interest but can then quickly scan the
messages in one place.

Graham


--- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@...> wrote:
>
> On 27 Nov 2009 at 22:00, Kerry wrote:
>
> > Comments interspersed.
> >
> > > 1. The need for an event-based database program for genealogists,
> > > historians, biographers etc.
> >
> > Well, for genealogists, The Master Genealogist is event-based. And since the
> > user can customise the events, I am guessing it could be tweaked to support
> > historians and biographers more generally.
>
> So people keep telling me, but I've never managed to discover it for myself,
> since every time I've tried to use TMG it has crashed my computer. I know
> some people manage to use it, but I am not one of the lucky ones.
>
> > Apart from family history, I don't think the marketplace for other forms of
> > history is particularly large, so a low-cost commercial offering seems
> > unlikely, unless it can be done as a tweak to something else. For example,
> > animal breeders use family history software increasingly to track their
animal
> > pedigrees because family history software is cheap by comparison to the
> > specialist breeder software offering costing thousands of dollars (or so I
> > have been told).
>
> It could be done either as shareware, or a trial version. Or it could be done
> as an open source project, which might be better, as more and different kinds
> of users could contribute it -- no one person can imagine all the
> circumstances in which it might be used.
>
> > > There were wones called Nameview and Namedrop that scanned BBS messages
for
> > > things like surnames of interest, and manipulated those messages to
collect
> > > them. They worked with Fido Technology Networks, but no one seems to have
> > > written an equivalent that works with mailing lists, newsgroups, or web
> > > forums.
> >
> > > Tiny Tafel Genenrator -- which not only developed but matched Tiny Tafels.
> >
> > I think the modern "solution" is to let Google loose on message archive and
> > then use Google search. Since you can ask Google to search over only a
> > specific site, you can probably approximate the same effect.
> >
> > However, a specialist genealogy search tool probably can exploit the
> > convention of SURNAMES being in upper case or the interpretation of Tiny
> > Tafels which Google cannot. However, there are already a number of
specialist
> > Google searches, e.g. Google scholar, that do treat content as more than
just
> > a bunch of key words (that is, exploit specific structures and conventions),
> > so if Google thought the interest was there and put a bit of their
horsepower
> > into it (they employ some very smart people), the result could be amazingly
> > good.
>
> Yes such searches are useful, and can, of course, search for old messages as
> well as current ones, if these are archived somewhere.
>
> But I would subscribe to a lot more mailing lists if I could download only
> the messages that I was interested in.
>
>
> --
> Steve Hayes
> E-mail: shayes@...
>   Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
>     Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
> Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
>     Fax: 086-548-2525
>