Hello all!

I received an email from a lady with a question about The Skull of
Agarash.  As I don't have the book, can anybody answer her question?
I've cut and pasted it below:- (thanks in advance, Paul)

Do hope you are able to help me.  I was given a copy of LONE WOLF THE
SKULL OF AGARASH (graphic novel) and I suspect there is a page or two
missing at the front.  Do you have a copy yourself?  If so, could you
let me know how it starts eg first caption.  I know this is a strange
request but I would really like to know if the book is in tact.  I've
just started collecting so I'm a bit in the dark.  If you can't help
me do you know someone who can?

--- In gamebooks@yahoogroups.com, Demian Katz <katz@n...> wrote:
> > Here's what I've come up with (and perhaps it's already been done
> > before). Each of the objects you encounter in the rooms has a
number
> > associated with it. For example:
>
> I believe that some French gamebooks (the various Quasar series --
Saga,
> Solo and Meta-Solo) use a system along these lines... and I sure
wish I
> could read the language so I could play them!


From what I've been able to read, they seem pretty interesting.  Very
videogame-like!  They can be played multiplayer, like the Blood Sword
series, but each player is supposed to have a copy of the same book,
so two characters can explore different locations at the same time,
for example.

Guillermo

Not able to access Demian's site.  Were there 10 in the Crossroads series?

Just noticed: HOTU does not have a Real Life gamebooks page anymore.
I don't know the reason for the removal but I suspect whoever owns
the rights to the books might have requested that it  be taken down.
In any case, this is the first time I've seen this happen (not that
much is lost, though :).

Guillermo

Just noticed: HOTU does not have a Real Life gamebooks page anymore.
I don't know the reason for the removal but I suspect whoever owns
the rights to the books might have requested that it  be taken down.
In any case, this is the first time I've seen this happen (not that
much is lost, though :).

Guillermo


Guillermo,
Which books were listed?  The entire series were co-written by the same
authors, yes?
I wonder if this presages more removals?

Yahoo! Groups Links

Robert_A_Mammone@... wrote:



Not able to access Demian's site.  Were there 10 in the Crossroads series?
Gnomes 100 Dragons 0 is available free at the Wizards of the Coast homepage in
the downloads section

Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
Click Here

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

    To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gamebooks/

    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
gamebooks-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robert_A_Mammone@... wrote:
Not able to access Demian's site.  Were there 10 in the Crossroads series?


Gnomes 100 Dragons 0 is available free at the Wizards of the Coast homepage
in the downloads section


What?!?!

On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 at 13:57, Robert_A_Mammone@....:

>Guillermo (gparedes76@...) wrote:

>>Just noticed: HOTU does not have a Real Life gamebooks page anymore.

Yes, I think I noticed that when you mentioned the new books were
posted and I was skimming the list to see if any more books went up
in series that were already on the page.

>>I don't know the reason for the removal but I suspect whoever owns
>>the rights to the books might have requested that it  be taken down.

Yes, that would make sense.

>>In any case, this is the first time I've seen this happen (not that
>>much is lost, though :).

Agreed.  I don't think I've ever seen gamebooks be removed before.
But I didn't download these anyway because they didn't seem all that
interesting to me, so it's no big loss to me.

>Which books were listed?

Books 1-4, 6, and 8 according to the notes I had made.  And it was an
eight book series so they were missing a few.

>The entire series were co-written by the same authors, yes?

I have no idea.

>I wonder if this presages more removals?

Who knows?  It's possible that if the authors requested that their books
be removed, they may contact other gamebook authors telling them about
the site and encouraging them to ask for their books to be removed.
Then again, you could end up with some authors taking the route Joe Dever
did with Lone Wolf and agree to let the books be posted.

--
       .      .        .       .         -- James Marshall       (SAG)   .
  ,.  -- )-- ,   , . -- )-- ,            marshall@...       ,.   . ,
           '             '       http://www.astro.umd.edu/~marshall .
"Electrons are just purple hazes with green racing stripes."         ,     .

What fighting fantasy books can anybody think of where you must actually
fail a check in order to complete the book?

(Spoilers)

I can think of Knights of Doom, where a skill test (I think) must be failed
in order to complete the game.
I also seem to recall the same was true in Seige of Sardath.
This is not just confined to Fighting fantasy, in lone wolf book 12 it is
necessary to fail a check in order to recieve a powerful item.

This is a great idea, but it would require a huge amount of paragraphs,
plus it would only be suitable for dungeon hack style gamebooks - how would
you implement complex conversations, epic battles etc? Note that every item
you find could have a number, and using the item on another article would
simply involve combining these numbers. It also would involve a very dry
style, you could present verbiose actions such as 'do you crush the door
open with your adamantium war hammer?' - instead you would simply add the
"door" number to the "hammer" number.
For an implementation of this idea, check out the "idol of the gauls"
gamebook, where a grid was used combining various items and actions. In
this book you have to explore a village at one time, and the book utilises
a method with a very similar result.

Cam




At 11:56 a.m. 10/03/2004, you wrote:
> > Combine the action with the object. So, if you want to examine the
> statue, you
> > turn to 455. If you want to open the door in the east wall, you turn to
> 118. If
> > you want to examine the carpet, you'd turn to 367.
>
>Yikes, I got a typo already. Examining the carpet would be done by turning
>to 467.
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

> I received an email from a lady with a question about The Skull of
> Agarash.  As I don't have the book, can anybody answer her question?
> I've cut and pasted it below:- (thanks in advance, Paul)
>
> Do hope you are able to help me.  I was given a copy of LONE WOLF THE
> SKULL OF AGARASH (graphic novel) and I suspect there is a page or two
> missing at the front.  Do you have a copy yourself?  If so, could you
> let me know how it starts eg first caption.  I know this is a strange
> request but I would really like to know if the book is in tact.  I've
> just started collecting so I'm a bit in the dark.  If you can't help
> me do you know someone who can?

Hi

The first few pages are as follows:

1: Title Page
2: Copyright Page
3: Introduction--a page of text briefly explaining Lone Wolf's history
4: First Graphic page

The first graphic page shows a group of flying Kraan ridden by Giaks
attacking an Arabian-esque city with minarets. Several of them are saying
'TAAG! TAAG!'. The bottom third of the page has another box inset showing a
group of bearded pirates sacking the city. One of them says: 'FILL Y'
POCKETS, M'LADS - KADAN'S OURS FOR THE TAKING!'

I hope this is helpful. The Skull of Agarash is darn difficult to get hold
of these days.

--
Simon Osborne

--- In gamebooks@yahoogroups.com, Campbell Pentney <rpentney@i...>
wrote:
> What fighting fantasy books can anybody think of where you must
actually
> fail a check in order to complete the book?


I'm pretty sure that Beneath Nightmare Castle had something bad
happen if you were successful with a certain luck roll?

--- In gamebooks@yahoogroups.com, "gabetk2002" <gabe.rach@v...> wrote:
> Yes, in fact I just recently finished my gamebook. It has taken me
> nearly three years to write it but I am very pleased with it.
>
> The book is called THE LEGEND OF GALGAROTH.

I am very close indeed to finishing my new Fighting Fantasy gamebook.
It is exactly 400 refs long but still has a higher page count than
any previous FF book (including my own Hellfire - and that had 499
refs)!

Phil Sadler wrote on Mar 10:

" --- In gamebooks@yahoogroups.com, Campbell Pentney <rpentney@i...>
" wrote:
" > What fighting fantasy books can anybody think of where you must
" actually
" > fail a check in order to complete the book?
"
"
" I'm pretty sure that Beneath Nightmare Castle had something bad
" happen if you were successful with a certain luck roll?

Wasn't there some drivel by that Mason fellow where you had to fail a luck roll?
The Crimson Tide, perhaps?

----
Best wishes

Paul Mason

> What fighting fantasy books can anybody think of where you must actually
> fail a check in order to complete the book?

In The Shamutanti Hills, you are given the *option* to test your LUCK in one
place, or you may decide not to (you are automatically Unlucky). If you are
Lucky, you are killed in a Headhunter's trap. If Unlucky, you are captured
by Headhunters and have the ability to escape.

Actually, with regards to the Lone Wolf instance you mentioned, this sort of
roll can be a good idea. If you fail the roll, you find something that can
help you complete the book that you probably don't need if you pass the
roll. Still, it's not a mechanic I would like to see used often.

--
Simon Osborne

> Phil Sadler wrote on Mar 10:
>
> " --- In gamebooks@yahoogroups.com, Campbell Pentney <rpentney@i...>
> " wrote:
> " > What fighting fantasy books can anybody think of where you must
> " actually
> " > fail a check in order to complete the book?
> "
> "
> " I'm pretty sure that Beneath Nightmare Castle had something bad
> " happen if you were successful with a certain luck roll?
>
> Wasn't there some drivel by that Mason fellow where you had to fail a luck
roll?
> The Crimson Tide, perhaps?

*blinkblink*

I thought it was Black Vein Prophecy?

--
Simon Osborne

--- Robert_A_Mammone@... escribió:
---------------------------------

Guillermo,
Which books were listed?  The entire series were co-written by the same
authors, yes?


Yep, the entire series was written by Simon Farrell and John Sutherland.
They weren't very good books, IMO.  In many cases I prefer even Bantam's
Time Machine series.


I wonder if this presages more removals?


It could happen.


Consequences: we probably won't get to see any other books written by
these authors, such as Lemmings, Double Game (which were like Duelmaster)
or some of the Sonic books.

Steve Jackson U. S. visited HOTU a long time ago and requested that some
Car Wars PC games be removed, so it isn't likely he is allowing any SJG
gamebooks (such as Car Wars) to be uploaded.

Cheers,

Guillermo



=====
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fighting_fantasy_gamebooks/

The mailing list for Fighting Fantasy, Sorcery! and Dungeoneer fans.

Join now!


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
La mejor conexión a internet y 25MB extra a tu correo por $100 al mes.
http://net.yahoo.com.mx

Simon Osborne wrote on Mar 10:

" > Wasn't there some drivel by that Mason fellow where you had to fail a luck
" roll?
" > The Crimson Tide, perhaps?
"
" *blinkblink*
"
" I thought it was Black Vein Prophecy?

That too, huh?

----
Best wishes

Paul Mason

Guillermo Paredes wrote on Mar 10:

"  --- Robert_A_Mammone@... escribi�E
" ---------------------------------
"
" Guillermo,
" Which books were listed?  The entire series were co-written by the same
" authors, yes?
"
"
" Yep, the entire series was written by Simon Farrell and John Sutherland.

That's 'Jon' Sutherland. Lovely fellow. Advertising manager at White Dwarf when
I started. My first encounter with him was when he tried to take advantage of my
being new on the magazine by nicking some editorial pages to smooth a deal
with an advertiser.

----
Best wishes

Paul Mason

Thanks for the feedback (Damian, Guillermo and Cam). Perhaps to combat the dry
style I could suggest some choices, but allude to more possibilities that aren't
explicitly asked.

One of the reasons I came up with the idea was that I was thinking of a
particular
trap in the Shadowgate video game. It involves a book sitting in a stone alcove
shelf. If you "take" the book, it activates a deadly pit trap underneath you.
However, if you "open" the book instead of taking it, you find a needed key
inside
and the trap is not activated.

Using standard gamebook techniques, the author could present the two choices of
"do you want to open the book? do you want to take the book?" and by spelling
out
the options it seems to suggest the solution itself - and the trap becomes less
potent in my opinion. I think the object-oriented system I'm thinking of would
help preserve the trap's effectiveness - making the user fall for it at least
once.

As for application, it's hard to conceive usage of the object-oriented numbering
style beyond dungeon crawls. But, then again, I do love dungeon crawls. :)

Joe


----- Original Message -----
From: "Campbell Pentney" <rpentney@...>
To: <gamebooks@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 3:05 AM
Subject: Re: [gamebooks] Looking for feedback on an idea


> This is a great idea, but it would require a huge amount of paragraphs,
> plus it would only be suitable for dungeon hack style gamebooks - how would
> you implement complex conversations, epic battles etc? Note that every item
> you find could have a number, and using the item on another article would
> simply involve combining these numbers. It also would involve a very dry
> style, you could present verbiose actions such as 'do you crush the door
> open with your adamantium war hammer?' - instead you would simply add the
> "door" number to the "hammer" number.
> For an implementation of this idea, check out the "idol of the gauls"
> gamebook, where a grid was used combining various items and actions. In
> this book you have to explore a village at one time, and the book utilises
> a method with a very similar result.
>
> Cam
>

> Using standard gamebook techniques, the author could present the two
> choices of "do you want to open the book? do you want to take the book?"
> and by spelling out the options it seems to suggest the solution itself
> - and the trap becomes less potent in my opinion. I think the
> object-oriented system I'm thinking of would help preserve the trap's
> effectiveness - making the user fall for it at least once.

Perhaps you could use a table-based system like the spell-casting in the
AD&D Adventure Gamebook "The Soulforge."  You could create a table where
the reader cross-references the action s/he wants to perform with the
section number or item number where it is relevant.  If the action is
valid, it results in a page number; otherwise, it doesn't.  This would
avoid the issue of giving too much away by presenting explicit choices,
and it would save considerable space in the book.

- Demian

>>> Not able to access Demian's site.  Were there 10 in the Crossroads
>>> series?

>> Gnomes 100 Dragons 0 is available free at the Wizards of the Coast
>> homepage in the downloads section

> What?!?!

I think somebody was confusing Crossroads with Catacombs.  In any case,
there were 14 Crossroads books.  I'm not sure why you were unable to
access my site; it seems to be working now.

- Demian

Demian said:

> I think it really is the fact that it was first more than anything
> else. The fact that it was first also meant it could be the longest-
> running and most prolific, thus giving more opportunities for people
> to get involved with it than other series.  I think Lone Wolf earned
> its reputation more by quality, while FF was simply in the right
> place at the right time.

And Paul said:

>> It can't have just been the fact that it was the first into
>> the market
>
> Why not?
> As a theory, this is a pretty good one. It also accounts for
> Dungeons & Dragons, for example.

I'm not denying there's something to that theory - quite a lot, no doubt.
But a lot of fans of the burgeoning gamebook genre wouldn't necessarily have
stuck with FF if it was eclipsed in quality by everything else that came
along.

Then again, I used to buy FFs because I thought they were all brilliant and
wouldn't hear a word said against them, which is the kind of attitude you
tend to have when you're in your early teens and interested in any kind of
niche activity. Bless.

Guillermo said:

> What has always amazed me about the FF series is the authors'
> ability to give us exciting adventures with a very concise prose,
> which IMO in only a few specific cases really becomes dry.
> Not to claim that gamebooks are masterpieces of modern literature,
> but I'll give credit where credit is due.

That's still true of the best ones, but while the first few books in the
series (before the imitators started to spring up) were atmospheric and
exciting at the time, they don't hold up too well when you look back with
years of reading under your belt. Of course, neither do some of the later
ones - J. Green, I'm looking at you, boy - so it's not even as if the series
saw a great deal of evolution. Again, I'm drawn back to the 'sheer variety'
theory.

Guillermo also said:

> Could it be rather that Puffin was the only company that really
> was interested in "training" (so to speak) a team of FF-specialized
> writers, and to favour a quantity-over-quality approach?
>
> So one reason for the continued success of FF was (if you look at
> it objectively) that they really didn't have that much competition.
> It was a bit like the Nintendo monopoly on video games back in
> those same old days.

Ah, good old Nintendo. Without dissing the overall standard of FF any
further (Mason's sewage aside, naturally), I'd have to agree that bulk plays
a considerable part in the attraction - and reputation - of FF, perhaps more
so than the quality of the writing itself. And Puffin did have the time and
resources to build up a certain monopoly, as you say.

Paul also recklessly claimed:

> I often exceeded the imposed word limit. In fact, I always
> exceeded the imposed word limit. We were told 30,000 words.
> I found it impossible to do a book at less than 40,000.

So what happened in those cases? Did you have to go back and trim it down,
or did the editors do it for you, or did they just sigh and let you get away
with it?

Per said:

> But at that time, the "first and only" argument would still be
> valid, so it could certainly be a combination of the two. Also
> I wouldn't overlook the nostalgia engendered by the innocent
> simplicity and accessibility of titles like Warlock and Forest
> of Doom, which remain excellent introductions to the format.

All true enough. Even in this age of multi-million-dollar 3D interactive
fantasy quests stuffed full of bump-mapped polygons, dynamic lighting
effects and instant knee-jerk gratification, it seems FF still has the
ability to engross a certain portion of the world's slack-jawed, blank-eyed
youth (though obviously not to the extent it did in the 80s) - so there must
be something enduring about the series beyond, or possibly including, its
pretty basic format.

All of which answers none of the original questions. Yay me!

- Leigh

--- In gamebooks@yahoogroups.com, Paul Mason <panurge@t...> wrote:
> Guillermo Paredes wrote on Mar 10:

> That's 'Jon' Sutherland. Lovely fellow. Advertising manager at
White Dwarf when
> I started.


OK, so I stand corrected.

"My first encounter with him was when he tried to take advantage of
my
> being new on the magazine by nicking some editorial pages to
smooth a deal
> with an advertiser.
>


He *tried* to, but he couldn't.  He wasn't prepared for your hornet
army (FF 32).

Guillermo

--- In gamebooks@yahoogroups.com, Demian Katz <katz@n...> wrote:
>
> I think somebody was confusing Crossroads with Catacombs.  In any
case,
> there were 14 Crossroads books.  I'm not sure why you were unable
to
> access my site; it seems to be working now.
>

I wrote the Gnomes -100, Dragons-0 notice, but it wasn't in response
to the Crossroads question.  It was in an earlier post.

Guillermo

> Perhaps Titan should have a legend about a genuine sea of blood
> somewhere near Khul, sailed by ghost pirates in ships built
> from the bones of drowned sailors. Many adventurers have sought
> this sea, either to slay the spectral pirates or to find the
> inevitable hoards of lost treasure (or both), but none have yet
> found it. Anyone want to write 'The Incarnadine Ocean'?

Hmmm. It's good to have an agreed setting, but instead of all tackling a
specific legend, how about we just lay down a basic situation then we all
(well, anyone who's interested... so that's me and you, Per... no, wait...
me) write mini-adventures based in that area?

I think it'd be more worthwhile than all attempting to write around the
exact same idea, which would admittedly be easier than having to think up a
new one but could also leave us in a situation where once you've read one of
the resulting adventures, you've read them all.

We could keep it pretty loose and simple... maybe you've been shipwrecked
off the coast of Khul, wake up with no recollection of how you went down,
and find yourself clinging to a section of mast in a blood-red sea that
stretches off to the horizon in every direction? 50 paragraphs - find out
where in the buggering hell you are, get back to land or die. (Refinements
welcome, obviously, as that's a bit shit.)

> What I'm thinking now is that it makes little sense to have
> rules in such a short adventure, apart from rudimentary rolls,
> counters or the equivalent thereof, since in that case they're
> little more than a distraction.

Fair enough. No rules. Fights, traps and other encounters would have to be
resolved by item usage and good old-fashioned 'picking the non-stupid
option', with maybe a couple of standard dice rolls/coin tosses thrown in.

> Problem is, at the moment I can't justify taking the time to
> design and write a solid 50-section adventure just for the
> sake of having done it...

Lightweight! Come on, it'll look good on your CV.

> I mean, even if we discount the huge majority of list members
> who are only in it for the drugs, there should still be
> several people with an active writing interest, including the
> infamous Mason.

Hopefully a few volunteers will spring out of the woodwork if some of us
actually commit to taking part in this. I doubt very much that we'll be able
to get the Infamous Mason involved in a competitive sense, but perhaps he
could be our unofficial judge/advisor? You know - so that we can ignore
everything he says to ensure our own adventures don't turn out as smelly as
his.

(Wonder how long we can keep this up before he starts getting annoyed...)

- Leigh

--- In gamebooks@yahoogroups.com, Leigh Loveday <lloveday@r...>
wrote:

  "I doubt very much that we'll be able
> to get the Infamous Mason involved in a competitive sense, but
perhaps he
> could be our unofficial judge/advisor? You know - so that we can
ignore
> everything he says to ensure our own adventures don't turn out as
smelly as
> his.
>
> (Wonder how long we can keep this up before he starts getting
annoyed...)"


He seems to be annoyed only by polls with his name on them, aren't
you Paul? :)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fighting_fantasy_gamebooks/surveys?
id=11632097

Guillermo

Playing the mod I mentioned a little while back suddenly got me
thinking about something I never really understood.

Well, you remember where (in the book) a Trialmaster asked you how
much "A man who weighs 100 pounds and half his weight weighs in
total?", or words to that effect? Well, seeing as how the answer was
given as 200 and not 150 pounds, I have just never really understood
why?

Can anyone help out a thicko?

Thanks

--- In gamebooks@yahoogroups.com, Leigh Loveday <lloveday@r...> wrote:
> Demian said:
>
> > I think it really is the fact that it was first more than
anything
> > else.

I also wonder if it didn't have something to do with the fact that
you could play an 'infinite' number of FF books at the same time.
Where as with LW, WoTT and others, you could only really play one
book at a time and couldn't really progress in the series until you'd
completed the previous one. This may have put off some people? I
mean, why play book 22 if you have only completed the first 4? I
suppose you could play them 'out of order', but then you'd have a
much weaker character with fewer items and less skills and knowledge.
Not only that, but you'd miss out on an awful how a lot of the story
actually got to that point in the first place.

Thoughts?

On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 at 20:55, Phil Sadler (philip.sadler3@...) wrote:

>Well, you remember where (in the book) a Trialmaster asked you how
>much "A man who weighs 100 pounds and half his weight weighs in
>total?", or words to that effect? Well, seeing as how the answer was
>given as 200 and not 150 pounds, I have just never really understood
>why?

This came up on one of the FF web boards I read, I think.  They're trying
to trick you with the way the question is worded.  It's not saying that
100 + half of that = the total weight, it's saying that
100 + half the total weight = the total weight.  So the total weight is
in there twice.  It's meant to sound harder than it is.  Me, I'd probably
put it in the form of a simple equation:

Weight = 100 + 0.5*Weight

Now solve for weight.  Subtract 1/2 weight from both sides to get:

0.5*Weight = 100

Then multiply both sides by 2 to get:

Weight = 200

There you go.  If you don't like equations, you can just do it by trial
and error as long as you understand what they're asking for.  For example:

Guess:  total = 100
100 + 1/2 total = 100 + 50 = 150; 150 != 100, wrong
Guess:  total = 150
100 + 1/2 total = 100 + 75 = 175; 175 != 150, wrong
Guess:  total = 200
100 + 1/2 total = 100 + 100 = 200; 200 = 200, right

Does that help?  If you want some more discussion, I can try to find the
thread on the board where this came up and give you a link to it.
--
       .      .        .       .         -- James Marshall       (SAG)   .
  ,.  -- )-- ,   , . -- )-- ,            marshall@...       ,.   . ,
           '             '       http://www.astro.umd.edu/~marshall .
"Electrons are just purple hazes with green racing stripes."         ,     .