Hi Miguel,

   Steve Vanek at Cornell has done important work in testing cover crops for the
tropical highlands. Try emailing him at siv2@.... A quick Cornell report
on the subject is available at
http://mulch.mannlib.cornell.edu/ccth/covcropspecies.htm

   Frijol Chinapopo, Tarwi, Yellow and White Sweet Clovers, Garotilla
(Bur-Medic), Sanfoin, Woolypod Vetch, and Phalaris Grass have all been tried
with some degree of success.

   An aggressive, deep-rooted legume like sweet clover, together with a grain
like Quinoa, and a grass like Phalaris, would probably be ideal for increasing
humus. Also, if you can grow Yacon, Sunchoke, and Chicory (Cichorium intybus) in
the mix, the inulin in the roots should, after several rotations, add to the
fertility of the soil. Generally, grains, grasses, legumes, and the high inulin
plants (chicory, sunchoke, artichoke, onion, asparagus, sunflower) work together
to create a "ley" that produces fertile topsoil.  If any one of these categories
of plants is missing in the cover crop (probably more accurately the "root crop"
mix), you will may fall short of acheiving maximum benefits.


   Bob Monie
   New Orleans, LA
   Zone 8


torskel87 <torskel87@...> wrote:
           Hi Everyone
This is Miguel from Ecuador, I am very interested in the subject of
cover crops because I have been building terraces and once that I
build them the remaining soil is really poor because the intensive
labor and movement of the topsoil.
Maybe is not so natural to build terraces, and I am building them like
the Incas used to do,but I´ve seen that if you don´t build them in
hilly lands, water absortion and soil fertility are poor, once that I
build them the remaining soil is really poor so what I´ve trying is to
rebuild it with cover crops, but I am wondering if the cover crops
might be able to rebuild top soil once the it´s been completly mooved,
somebody have an idea about this...I ve tried two ways of building
terraces, one is by slow formation, just building a green wall of
grass and leting the soil to be cariied year after year by the rain,
and in this case the terraces are narrow, in this kind of terraces
I´ve tried with natural farming, the other way is building a tall wall
and moove all the soil with a hoe until I get a flat surface, in this
case is when I wonder if a cover crop might be able to rebuild the
soil????? In this case the terraces are usally broad.
Maybe it would more natural to create green contours, but it would
take a really long time until I get a flat surface on a slope.If
somebody have expeience with farming on hilly lands I would thank any
idea or advice.
The advantages of terracing are that once builded, fertility remains
forever and is not washed by the rain, and water absortion improves a
lot.Also the microclamate created in the terrace prtotects the plants
from the harsh conditions of the highlands(I am farming over 9200
ft)specially wind and frost, I´ve tried natural farming on terraces
and it works really good but only once the fertility is back, in some
terraces I´´ve been trying to grow vegetables in a natural way and is
amaizing to see daikon, lettuce, chard, turnip and clover replanting
by themselvs with any work year after year, the only thing that I do
in some terraces is spacing because daikon and lettuce seeds are
scattered by birds and grow to thick, but once that the spacing is
done the only thing that i have to do is harvesting....
Soon i would like to post some photos about the terraces and the
natural replanting of vegetables and andean tubers, but how do i post
the photos in the group???
Cheers
Miguel

--- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Robert Monie <bobm20001@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi Ty and Steve,
>
> Everything Steve said about rocks that far down under the field is
exactly right; unless you plan to specialize in growing some
fantastically deep underground plant like the Japanese Imo mountain
yam (cinnamon vine), you have plenty enough depth in your soil to grow
most vegetables, legumes, and fruits. In addition to adding organic
matter, you could experiment with various seasonaly rotating cover
crops to see which work best for you in your microclimate.
>
> Some cover crops to try are spelt, ryegrass, red clover, and hairy
vetch in fall/winter, buckwheat in summer, and yellow blossom clover
or birdsfoot trefoil in spring. Also try agricultural chicory for as
long as you can keep it going. Yellow mustard, daikon, and oilseed
radish are also good bets.
>
> Each of these crops has its own special role in creating topsoil,
both the humus and the glomular glycoprotein parts that science now
tells us are essential for soil fertility. Rye and buckwheat are
alleopathic and do most of your weeding for you; buckwheat also takes
up and releases phosphorus. Red Clover and yellow sweet clover burrow
through the hard soil (though don't expect them to do much with the
boulders--at least in the next 100 years) and fix nitrogen from the
air; birdsfoot trefoil also fixes nitrogen and is not nearly so
finicky about getting started as the clovers are; hairy vetch is a
companion plant to rye that flourishes in cool weather; buckwheat will
grow in the steaming South; yellow mustard mines nutrients from low
levels, sudan grass provides mass for decomposition; chicory adds
inulin to the soil to build humus, and so forth. One of the old "ley"
mixes might work well for you too (these usually combine chicory or
burnet, a bunchgrass or two, a few
> kinds of rye, a legume and some herbs for good measure). And don't
forget Fukuoka's beloved short and middle-sized white clovers, White
Dutch, New Zealand or New Zealand Dutch, or Ladino. In my experience
the white clovers work best after a few years of soil build up and
preparation. Then, you can really sow some vegetables among the
clovers and they just might come up.
>
> Some places where you can find these cover crops, expecially in
high quantity volume: Cooper Seeds http://www.cooperseeds.com for
buckwheat, ryegrass, hairy vetch and chicory and some of the clovers.
Main Street Seeds ttp://www.mainstreetseedandsupply.com a good
alternative.
>
> Pinetree Seeds http://www.superseeds.com for spelt and bird'sfoot
trefoil
>
> Peaceful Valley Seeds http://www.groworganic.com for mixed
(including yellow and white)mustard, oilseed radish (Johnny's Seeds
http://www. also has these and Sudan grass as well), an herbal pasture
mix (what I call a "ley mix"), and several clovers.
>
> Bob Monie
> Zone 8
> USA
>
>
>
>
> Steve Gage <sgage@...> wrote:
> Hey there Ty,
>
> Sounds exactly like typical New Hampshire conditions, only here we
blame
> the glacier instead of contractors :-)
>
> I surely wouldn't worry about what's 15-20 feet down. 15-20 inches is
> more like it around here.
>
> When you say "not very thick" about the topsoil, what do you mean? And
> it would be useful to let us know where you are. I know you're not in
> New Hampshire, because of the palm trees :-)
>
> In any case, there's probably quite a bit of soil around those big
> rocks. And what are you intending to grow? Seems like if the grass and
> palm trees are happy, you should have something to work with.
>
> But here's my free all-purpose prescription: Add organic matter :-)
>
> All best,
>
> - Steve
>
> tykei2 wrote:
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I think I may have a problem. I have secured a plot of land for
> > farming. But I recently discovered that its made up of several layers
> > that may make it difficult for farming, Im not sure.
> >
> > Its land that was modified to make the house that is on the property
> > stable as it is in a slide zone. In this respect it was a success, but
> > the way they did it might cause problems for me, Im not sure.
> >
> > On the very bottom layer there is some clay/soil type of element, its
> > about 15-20 feet down I estimate.
> >
> > On top of that the contractors dumped giant boulders, to stabalize the
> > ground. Id say 10 feet high tops.
> >
> > Then on top of that they put top soil, not a very thick layer, but
> > grass and palm trees are growing in it just fine.
> >
> > So my question is: will this cause me problems down the line as I try
> > to grow things?
> >
> > It seems that the plants would try to grow deep roots, getting through
> > the top soil only to hit giant rocks with not much soil at all at that
> > layer.
> >
> > Does anyone have any experience growing in these conditions?
> >
> >
> > thanks!
> >
> > -Ty
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

peanut and perennial peanuts ( not producing fruits ) are also excellent for
tropical country ( have been used by a natural farm in vietnam )
jean-claude

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

< the other way is building a tall wall
and moove all the soil with a hoe until I get a flat surface>


Ideally when you want to built a terrasse with high retaining walls it will be
important to remove the top soil , bringing down the subsoil to make it flat
then recover with the top soil . it will minimize the burrying of good top soil
against the wall deep down and thinning the top soil on the upper part of the
terrace .
the way i do it in my garden ( on a rock bluff ) i fill the space behind the
wall with wood and other organic matter mixed with some soil that i gather from
ditches ( my terrasses are small scale )then plant all the plants that have been
listed to you allready that are known great soil builders .
jean-claude


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

this is what i´m doing with the stones.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/13735317@N00/sets/72157594401878480/

Javier h.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\
----------------------------------
PD. THANKS  ROBERT MONIE FOR THE WEB ADDRESS


At 12:17 a.m. 02/12/2006, Ingrid Bauer / Jean-Claude Catry wrote:

>< the other way is building a tall wall
>and moove all the soil with a hoe until I get a flat surface>
>
>Ideally when you want to built a terrasse with
>high retaining walls it will be important to
>remove the top soil , bringing down the subsoil
>to make it flat then recover with the top soil .
>it will minimize the burrying of good top soil
>against the wall deep down and thinning the top
>soil on the upper part of the terrace .
>the way i do it in my garden ( on a rock bluff )
>i fill the space behind the wall with wood and
>other organic matter mixed with some soil that i
>gather from ditches ( my terrasses are small
>scale )then plant all the plants that have been
>listed to you allready that are known great soil builders .
>jean-claude
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

this is what i´m doing with the stones.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/13735317@N00/sets/72157594401878480/

Javier h.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\
----------------------------------
PD. THANKS  ROBERT MONIE FOR THE WEB ADDRESS


At 12:17 a.m. 02/12/2006, Ingrid Bauer / Jean-Claude Catry wrote:

>< the other way is building a tall wall
>and moove all the soil with a hoe until I get a flat surface>
>
>Ideally when you want to built a terrasse with
>high retaining walls it will be important to
>remove the top soil , bringing down the subsoil
>to make it flat then recover with the top soil .
>it will minimize the burrying of good top soil
>against the wall deep down and thinning the top
>soil on the upper part of the terrace .
>the way i do it in my garden ( on a rock bluff )
>i fill the space behind the wall with wood and
>other organic matter mixed with some soil that i
>gather from ditches ( my terrasses are small
>scale )then plant all the plants that have been
>listed to you allready that are known great soil builders .
>jean-claude
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

Thank you Shashi Kumar!

All the best,
Andres
Rattur,
Estonia!



------------------------------
Ohoo, Linnalehte saab lugeda ka internetis:
http://www.linnaleht.ee

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi my name is Kiko and I live in NYC. Im very interested in natural
farming and everything related to that. I want to recommend two
excellent books The humanure handbook by joseph jenkins, rainwater
harvesting for drylands by Brad Lancaster. I was wondering which of
fukuokas books I should start reading and I was also wondering if
anyone was from the NYC area where I could learn more about
agroforestry, permaculutre natural farming. In 2008 I want to go study
agronomy in Bolivia (im part bolivian) and want to eventually start my
own natural farm over there relying entirely on natural means. I eager
to learn all that I can. Thank you.

HI all,

I just finished reading a book by Jane Poynter on Biosphere 2.
Really more of a physchological tale on isolation and group
dynamics, but I did track down an small paper about limited details
on the food grown there.

It caught me as some what of a surprise how in-adequately prepared
the Biospherians were for weed and pest problems.
It references double dig /bio-intensive method favored by John
Jeavons. And scientifically it compares favorably to tropical
production of food and NASA's hydroponic efforts> (they outproduced
other sources), however, the diet selection was hardly inspiring
(mostly rice, peanuts, lablab beans, goat milk, bananas, sweet
potatoes and paypays, along with various greens). Wheat and sorgum
also made a small dent, but the sweet potato production is what kept
them alive. They ate so much they turned orange from all the beta-
carotine.

What struck me as odd, is the missing of some rather important
tropical foods: sugar cane was mentioned as being grown, and a
processing unit was in the biosphere, but apparently, this source
never contribuated significantly to their diet. Manioc/taro was 'not
preferred" but not mentioned further. Also missing was Avacado, a
great source of nutrition on calories.
Corn was planted but not mentioned as significant. Barley is usually
a better choice then wheat for production, unless they were wanting
bread, which they said the didn't really eat much of (turned hard).
Radishes and Daikons, a staple of most organic farmers (especially
with its fast growth) wasn't mentioned as significant. Bananas were
a staple, but not included was the more starchy plantain, which
would stick with the biospherians longer. Other things struck me as
odd: their low production of fish through the rice patties.... Only
30 fish over two years, and average weight was under a pound. It
seems to me that a tilapia/azolla systems would produce more than
this. (6820 ft^2 in rice patties)
She also mentioned that 3-4 hrs/per day/per person was required to
maintain this system. NAsas finds 2-3 hours/per day/per person to
maintain their growth.
This to me seems excessive. My traditional home garden requires much
much less work than this per area. And this is where permaculture
and fukuoka types systems have a chance to shine in reduced work
load.:
Now taking back a step, I read the Greg Williams review and Toby
Hemenway's response to the Permaculture critic.
I'll summarize briefly:
G. WIlliams (show me the money) er Show my examples and yeild data.
T Hemenways: we don't really have good/or any data,
T Hemenway: even if we did your missing the point,

While Toby does desparately want data to be found, or created in the
future, he acknoewledges that permaculture seeks something beyond
the scientific realm, Jane and the Biospherians claim much the same
thing, (that science, in a sense has gotten to far along
micromanaging everything, and re really don't even hae a language
that works to comunicate between different scientific fields.)
Essentially ecology.
does anyone have numbers for fukuoka production besides the bonfils
wheat and the fukuoka rice/barley method?

It seems to me that there needs to be a reductionist study of the
imputs of these studies to effectively communicate the vastly
different energy flows in these systsems to traditional scientists.
Unfortunately , the science of nutrient/energy flow is just begining
to get a handle on largely mono-culutral simplified systtms, belying
the need and finances to fund such a project of the semi-functional
buffer areas..

Following up this thought, I would like to know which crops everyone
thinks are the most productive for the amount of labor you put into
them? the yield per square foot of the staples of the Biospherians
realy surprised me> ..
Egg plant topped the list,
vegetables that also did well, tomatoes, cucumbers, carrots, onions
and green beans.
With sweet potatoe way behind.
and rice being one fourth, that of sweet potatoe.
But of course you really shouldn't live mostly on sweet potatoes,
but that's another discussion entirely.
Fruits were measured per plant rather than per area, so not
comparable to this yeild.

Any comments?
Jeff

Hi.



Would anyone of you knows where I could fine copies of the one straw
revolution in spanish (la revolucion de una brizna de paja) ideally in
Mexico, but anywhere can be fine...


Thanks and cheers,



-r-

Anyone interested in gardening has one question in mind when choosing
a new plant: Will it thrive in my garden? read more....

http://gardenlands.blogspot.com/2006/12/basic-plant-requirements.html
I opened a site of gardening  http://gardenlands.blogspot.com

it gives more informative gardening tips which will help you to
improve your garden
at the same you can also share  some ideas ,tips etc.I am also
accepting article submissions for the site

Hi Jeff,

   For a brighter marriage of technology and biota, see the Eden Project
(http://www.edenproject.com), which brings together the world's biomes under the
shimmering transluency of  "next-generation" geodesic domes and tensegrity
structures engineered by Nicholas Grimshaw and Company. The Eden project
respects (and openly uses) the Earth and its atmosphere and makes no attempt to
transform a barren self-imposed vacuum into a quasi-Earth by terrafarming, as
the Biosphere mistakenly did.

   The trouble with Biosphere is that it was (as the old English proverb goes)
"neither fish nor fowl."  James Loveck and other visionary scientists toyed with
the idea of greening Mars and making an Earthly atmosphere there by seeding the
planet with the right plants and other life forms, thus giving birth to a viable
ecology, an atmosphere, a planetary Gaian system(see Lovelock's book, The
Greening of Mars). The biospherians didn't run with this ball; they stumbled,
fumbled, and ultimately fouled their way through it--a bad game all around.
Instead of trying to terraform a little patch of, say the Moon, the biospherians
decided to seal themselves up on the surface of their own planet, Mother Earth,
to see if they could reconstruct her benefits with their own derivative (and
drastically simplified) design. The plants and animals they set up to make a
self-sufficient ecology didn't mesh or produce enough oxygen or food, so they
just opened the portal seals to let in Earth's
  own air (did they also sneak in a few Pizzas and and spinach wraps?), rather
like boys and girls running away from home but making sure to stuff plently of
Mama's pumpkin pie in their knapsacks.

   The Biosphere wasn't much of a farm or much of a "space-ship earth" or much of
a simulation of what would happen if you really tried to terrafarm other
planets. The windows weren't transparent enough to allow full spectrum light in
(compare Eden's which are better) and the overall design style was
undistinguished (compare Bucky Fuller's beautiful botanical garden in St. Louis,
Grimshaw's Eden, or both the old and the new greenhouses at Kew Gardens). One
bright spot was nutritionist Roy Walford, who had done excellent work in
planning an optimal diet that would extend human longevity by creative caloric
restriction, but the poor man was stricken with a terminal illness (perhaps
triggered by his confinement or perhaps not), and most of the other biospherians
also experienced various degrees of unwellness during their period of
confinement.

   Could other planets be greened?  In our solar system, Earth seems to be the
right size, has the right orbit and the right density to support life
"naturally"; the other planets do not. Since the other planets are so different,
even if we found a way to irrigate them, get plankton to grow, and seed them
with microbes and plants, would they ever look anything like Earth?
   Would they exude an atmosphere like ours or would something radically
different occur (something more "natural" for them?).  Biosphere could not have
answered any of these questions, nor could it tell us if an orbiting space
station could somehow be terraformed into a mini-Earth. Biosphere did reveal
some unexpected problems in trying to seal off a habitat on the Earth's surface
from the Earth's natural atmosphere and attempting to duplicate that atmosphere
within.

   Whether this has much practical application, I do not know. Much would I
rather see Earth dwellers downsize their houses to maybe under 800 sq. feet, dig
up the rest of the lot and plant on it. Mars might or might not be greenable;
cities on Earth without question are.

   Bob Monie
Zone 8
Jeff <shultonus@...> wrote:
           HI all,

I just finished reading a book by Jane Poynter on Biosphere 2.
Really more of a physchological tale on isolation and group
dynamics, but I did track down an small paper about limited details
on the food grown there.

It caught me as some what of a surprise how in-adequately prepared
the Biospherians were for weed and pest problems.
It references double dig /bio-intensive method favored by John
Jeavons. And scientifically it compares favorably to tropical
production of food and NASA's hydroponic efforts> (they outproduced
other sources), however, the diet selection was hardly inspiring
(mostly rice, peanuts, lablab beans, goat milk, bananas, sweet
potatoes and paypays, along with various greens). Wheat and sorgum
also made a small dent, but the sweet potato production is what kept
them alive. They ate so much they turned orange from all the beta-
carotine.

What struck me as odd, is the missing of some rather important
tropical foods: sugar cane was mentioned as being grown, and a
processing unit was in the biosphere, but apparently, this source
never contribuated significantly to their diet. Manioc/taro was 'not
preferred" but not mentioned further. Also missing was Avacado, a
great source of nutrition on calories.
Corn was planted but not mentioned as significant. Barley is usually
a better choice then wheat for production, unless they were wanting
bread, which they said the didn't really eat much of (turned hard).
Radishes and Daikons, a staple of most organic farmers (especially
with its fast growth) wasn't mentioned as significant. Bananas were
a staple, but not included was the more starchy plantain, which
would stick with the biospherians longer. Other things struck me as
odd: their low production of fish through the rice patties.... Only
30 fish over two years, and average weight was under a pound. It
seems to me that a tilapia/azolla systems would produce more than
this. (6820 ft^2 in rice patties)
She also mentioned that 3-4 hrs/per day/per person was required to
maintain this system. NAsas finds 2-3 hours/per day/per person to
maintain their growth.
This to me seems excessive. My traditional home garden requires much
much less work than this per area. And this is where permaculture
and fukuoka types systems have a chance to shine in reduced work
load.:
Now taking back a step, I read the Greg Williams review and Toby
Hemenway's response to the Permaculture critic.
I'll summarize briefly:
G. WIlliams (show me the money) er Show my examples and yeild data.
T Hemenways: we don't really have good/or any data,
T Hemenway: even if we did your missing the point,

While Toby does desparately want data to be found, or created in the
future, he acknoewledges that permaculture seeks something beyond
the scientific realm, Jane and the Biospherians claim much the same
thing, (that science, in a sense has gotten to far along
micromanaging everything, and re really don't even hae a language
that works to comunicate between different scientific fields.)
Essentially ecology.
does anyone have numbers for fukuoka production besides the bonfils
wheat and the fukuoka rice/barley method?

It seems to me that there needs to be a reductionist study of the
imputs of these studies to effectively communicate the vastly
different energy flows in these systsems to traditional scientists.
Unfortunately , the science of nutrient/energy flow is just begining
to get a handle on largely mono-culutral simplified systtms, belying
the need and finances to fund such a project of the semi-functional
buffer areas..

Following up this thought, I would like to know which crops everyone
thinks are the most productive for the amount of labor you put into
them? the yield per square foot of the staples of the Biospherians
realy surprised me> ..
Egg plant topped the list,
vegetables that also did well, tomatoes, cucumbers, carrots, onions
and green beans.
With sweet potatoe way behind.
and rice being one fourth, that of sweet potatoe.
But of course you really shouldn't live mostly on sweet potatoes,
but that's another discussion entirely.
Fruits were measured per plant rather than per area, so not
comparable to this yeild.

Any comments?
Jeff






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Greetings,

I just wanted to drop a note to update you on my experiments this year.
In 2005 I started with planting rye under buckwheat in the fall as the
annual rains started.  This came up strong and again came up good in the
spring of 2006.  I simply scatter cast the seeds without seedballs.  I
tried to estimate when the rye would mature and scatter cast buckwheat
back under the rye a month beforehand.  Unfortunately, the weather was
exceptionally dry at that time and I didn't get any germination to speak
of.  We experience dry conditions for most of the summer here.  I then
scatter cast buckwheat a week or two before harvesting the rye and this
batch germinated because of a few good rains.  After harvesting the rye
and putting the straw back, the buckwheat did well.  I think it would
have done better if the first germination would have taken as the
buckwheat didn't ripen until October.  This is quite late in my climate,
45 degrees north latitude..

I decided to allow the buckwheat to sit and hopefully reseed for the
spring.  As soon as the first real frost of the year hit, the buckwheat
crumbled down with it's seed.  I will let the buckwheat come back in the
spring, if it will, and then I am planning on using the Bonfil method of
wheat growing.  Thank you, whoever posted the link about that method.  I
will try planting alfalfa under the buckwheat in the spring to establish
a sward.  First I will try snow planting were you scatter the seed into
the last of the winter snow.  Then I will try frost planting were you
scatter seeds during intense frosts that heave the soil.  Then I will
try scattering seeds for the spring rains.  If that doesn't work, I will
rototill and plant alfalfa and wheat on the summer solstice.  This will
be my move to establish a green manure legume ground cover for further
experimentation.

I will choose alfalfa for two reasons.  First, it does well in the local
area.  Second, it makes perfect rabbit food.

I had great success with winter squash this year and plan on expanding
this planting next year as well.  Squash works so well because it takes
very little work.  Planting every three feet in each direction, all I
did was prepare the soil in one little area about a foot in diameter.  I
added decomposing wood to improve the soil.  During the early summer I
had to go around and make sure the squash was free of competition with a
little weeding.  As soon as the weather warmed up the squash spread out
and took over from the weeds and quack grass around it.  A very large
area can be maintained with little effort.  The squash also shades out
everything else.  Whether this means less quack competition for next
year, I don't know.

Next fall I am planning on trying to introduce apple trees.  In my area,
apples are sold by the bag for deer feed in the fall.  I plan on buying
apples and putting them just under the soil surface, the whole apple.  I
am hoping the apples will decompose over winter and provide the ideal
conditions to sprout the seeds in spring 2008.  As these grow I will
probably look for local growers that will have prunings I can use to
graft better apples onto these root stocks.  My theory is the apples are
the older local varieties that will do well in my soil and climate.  In
this way I hope to kick start my fruit adventures.

--
Steven R McCollough

http://newsvote. bbc.co.uk/ mpapps/pagetools /print/news. bbc.co.uk/ 1\
/hi/sci/tech/ 4716224.stm

Eco-farming 'helps world's poor'
By Mark Kinver
BBC News science and nature reporter


Sustainable farming methods can help the poorest farmers in
developing nations out of poverty, new research suggests.
Scientists found that techniques such as crop rotation and
organic farming increased crop yields by an average of 79%,
without risking future harvests.
The study, possibly the largest of its kind, looked at more than
280 projects in 57 of the world's poorest countries.
The findings appear in the journal Environmental Science and
Technology.
The team of international scientists who carried out the
four-year project found that the farmers enjoyed improved crop
productivity, while reducing their use of pesticides and water.
Healthy soil
One of the report's co-authors, Professor Jules Pretty from the
University of Essex, UK, said the findings challenged the
dominate view that the West knew best when it came to
agriculture.
"Most people think it is bad news from the south," Professor
Pretty said, "but in many ways farmers in developing country are
leading the way."
The researchers found methods that did not have an adverse effect
on local biodiversity allowed farmers to reap the rewards of
growing crops in healthy soil.
"People are using a variety of integrated pest management
techniques; making the best of biodiversity like predators,
parasites and multiple cropping," Professor Pretty told the BBC
News website.
"In essence, it allows the ecosystem to deliver the pest
management services."
This approach paid dividends, he said, because it not only cut
the use of pesticides but also resulted in farmers having to
spend less of their income on chemicals.


SEEDS OF HOPE
An awful lot of this happened without any direct policy input
Prof Jules Pretty, report co-author
Healthy soil also required less water to cultivate crops, he
added: "All crops need water, but soils that are higher in
organic matter are better at holding water.
"If you have diverse and higher soil quality then it is better
prepared to deal with drought conditions when access to water
becomes a critical issue."
Figures from the World Health Organization (WHO) show that many
environmental benefits - clean air and water, stable climate -
are being lost through unsustainable farming practices.
Professor Pretty hoped the data would act as a catalyst for
governments and national organisations to adopt better land
management.
"One of the key things from all of this is that an awful lot of
this happened without any direct policy input," he said.
"If there was more central support then we would expect to see
these sorts of techniques and ideas spread more rapidly."
The researchers admit that uncertainty remains as to whether
these farming methods can meet the growing global demand for
food.
But they concluded that they were cautiously optimistic it could
help the world's poorest farmers out of poverty.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news. bbc.co.uk/ go/pr/fr/ -/1/hi/sci/ tech/4716224. stm

   ****************************
and more good news on:
   http://www.newenerg ymovement. org/resources. aspx


Elsa Santos
http://www.montesamoqueiro.com/

---------------------------------
Have a burning question? Go to Yahoo! Answers and get answers from real people
who know.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Bob
Your message has been really helpfull for me, I´ve been trying to
plant cover crops with tarwi and it has helped a lot to the soil, now
I will try to look for the other cover crop plants like phalaris
grass, woolypod vetch....
Miguel
Sacha Runa farm
Ecuador




--- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Robert Monie <bobm20001@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi Miguel,
>
>   Steve Vanek at Cornell has done important work in testing cover
crops for the tropical highlands. Try emailing him at siv2@... A quick
Cornell report on the subject is available at
http://mulch.mannlib.cornell.edu/ccth/covcropspecies.htm
>
>   Frijol Chinapopo, Tarwi, Yellow and White Sweet Clovers, Garotilla
(Bur-Medic), Sanfoin, Woolypod Vetch, and Phalaris Grass have all been
tried with some degree of success.
>
>   An aggressive, deep-rooted legume like sweet clover, together with
a grain like Quinoa, and a grass like Phalaris, would probably be
ideal for increasing humus. Also, if you can grow Yacon, Sunchoke, and
Chicory (Cichorium intybus) in the mix, the inulin in the roots
should, after several rotations, add to the fertility of the soil.
Generally, grains, grasses, legumes, and the high inulin plants
(chicory, sunchoke, artichoke, onion, asparagus, sunflower) work
together to create a "ley" that produces fertile topsoil.  If any one
of these categories of plants is missing in the cover crop (probably
more accurately the "root crop" mix), you will may fall short of
acheiving maximum benefits.
>
>
>   Bob Monie
>   New Orleans, LA
>   Zone 8
>
>
> torskel87 <torskel87@...> wrote:
>           Hi Everyone
> This is Miguel from Ecuador, I am very interested in the subject of
> cover crops because I have been building terraces and once that I
> build them the remaining soil is really poor because the intensive
> labor and movement of the topsoil.
> Maybe is not so natural to build terraces, and I am building them like
> the Incas used to do,but I´ve seen that if you don´t build them in
> hilly lands, water absortion and soil fertility are poor, once that I
> build them the remaining soil is really poor so what I´ve trying is to
> rebuild it with cover crops, but I am wondering if the cover crops
> might be able to rebuild top soil once the it´s been completly mooved,
> somebody have an idea about this...I ve tried two ways of building
> terraces, one is by slow formation, just building a green wall of
> grass and leting the soil to be cariied year after year by the rain,
> and in this case the terraces are narrow, in this kind of terraces
> I´ve tried with natural farming, the other way is building a tall wall
> and moove all the soil with a hoe until I get a flat surface, in this
> case is when I wonder if a cover crop might be able to rebuild the
> soil????? In this case the terraces are usally broad.
> Maybe it would more natural to create green contours, but it would
> take a really long time until I get a flat surface on a slope.If
> somebody have expeience with farming on hilly lands I would thank any
> idea or advice.
> The advantages of terracing are that once builded, fertility remains
> forever and is not washed by the rain, and water absortion improves a
> lot.Also the microclamate created in the terrace prtotects the plants
> from the harsh conditions of the highlands(I am farming over 9200
> ft)specially wind and frost, I´ve tried natural farming on terraces
> and it works really good but only once the fertility is back, in some
> terraces I´´ve been trying to grow vegetables in a natural way and is
> amaizing to see daikon, lettuce, chard, turnip and clover replanting
> by themselvs with any work year after year, the only thing that I do
> in some terraces is spacing because daikon and lettuce seeds are
> scattered by birds and grow to thick, but once that the spacing is
> done the only thing that i have to do is harvesting....
> Soon i would like to post some photos about the terraces and the
> natural replanting of vegetables and andean tubers, but how do i post
> the photos in the group???
> Cheers
> Miguel
>
> --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Robert Monie <bobm20001@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Ty and Steve,
> >
> > Everything Steve said about rocks that far down under the field is
> exactly right; unless you plan to specialize in growing some
> fantastically deep underground plant like the Japanese Imo mountain
> yam (cinnamon vine), you have plenty enough depth in your soil to grow
> most vegetables, legumes, and fruits. In addition to adding organic
> matter, you could experiment with various seasonaly rotating cover
> crops to see which work best for you in your microclimate.
> >
> > Some cover crops to try are spelt, ryegrass, red clover, and hairy
> vetch in fall/winter, buckwheat in summer, and yellow blossom clover
> or birdsfoot trefoil in spring. Also try agricultural chicory for as
> long as you can keep it going. Yellow mustard, daikon, and oilseed
> radish are also good bets.
> >
> > Each of these crops has its own special role in creating topsoil,
> both the humus and the glomular glycoprotein parts that science now
> tells us are essential for soil fertility. Rye and buckwheat are
> alleopathic and do most of your weeding for you; buckwheat also takes
> up and releases phosphorus. Red Clover and yellow sweet clover burrow
> through the hard soil (though don't expect them to do much with the
> boulders--at least in the next 100 years) and fix nitrogen from the
> air; birdsfoot trefoil also fixes nitrogen and is not nearly so
> finicky about getting started as the clovers are; hairy vetch is a
> companion plant to rye that flourishes in cool weather; buckwheat will
> grow in the steaming South; yellow mustard mines nutrients from low
> levels, sudan grass provides mass for decomposition; chicory adds
> inulin to the soil to build humus, and so forth. One of the old "ley"
> mixes might work well for you too (these usually combine chicory or
> burnet, a bunchgrass or two, a few
> > kinds of rye, a legume and some herbs for good measure). And don't
> forget Fukuoka's beloved short and middle-sized white clovers, White
> Dutch, New Zealand or New Zealand Dutch, or Ladino. In my experience
> the white clovers work best after a few years of soil build up and
> preparation. Then, you can really sow some vegetables among the
> clovers and they just might come up.
> >
> > Some places where you can find these cover crops, expecially in
> high quantity volume: Cooper Seeds http://www.cooperseeds.com for
> buckwheat, ryegrass, hairy vetch and chicory and some of the clovers.
> Main Street Seeds ttp://www.mainstreetseedandsupply.com a good
> alternative.
> >
> > Pinetree Seeds http://www.superseeds.com for spelt and bird'sfoot
> trefoil
> >
> > Peaceful Valley Seeds http://www.groworganic.com for mixed
> (including yellow and white)mustard, oilseed radish (Johnny's Seeds
> http://www. also has these and Sudan grass as well), an herbal pasture
> mix (what I call a "ley mix"), and several clovers.
> >
> > Bob Monie
> > Zone 8
> > USA
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Steve Gage <sgage@> wrote:
> > Hey there Ty,
> >
> > Sounds exactly like typical New Hampshire conditions, only here we
> blame
> > the glacier instead of contractors :-)
> >
> > I surely wouldn't worry about what's 15-20 feet down. 15-20 inches is
> > more like it around here.
> >
> > When you say "not very thick" about the topsoil, what do you mean?
And
> > it would be useful to let us know where you are. I know you're not in
> > New Hampshire, because of the palm trees :-)
> >
> > In any case, there's probably quite a bit of soil around those big
> > rocks. And what are you intending to grow? Seems like if the grass
and
> > palm trees are happy, you should have something to work with.
> >
> > But here's my free all-purpose prescription: Add organic matter :-)
> >
> > All best,
> >
> > - Steve
> >
> > tykei2 wrote:
> > > Hi All,
> > >
> > > I think I may have a problem. I have secured a plot of land for
> > > farming. But I recently discovered that its made up of several
layers
> > > that may make it difficult for farming, Im not sure.
> > >
> > > Its land that was modified to make the house that is on the property
> > > stable as it is in a slide zone. In this respect it was a
success, but
> > > the way they did it might cause problems for me, Im not sure.
> > >
> > > On the very bottom layer there is some clay/soil type of
element, its
> > > about 15-20 feet down I estimate.
> > >
> > > On top of that the contractors dumped giant boulders, to
stabalize the
> > > ground. Id say 10 feet high tops.
> > >
> > > Then on top of that they put top soil, not a very thick layer, but
> > > grass and palm trees are growing in it just fine.
> > >
> > > So my question is: will this cause me problems down the line as
I try
> > > to grow things?
> > >
> > > It seems that the plants would try to grow deep roots, getting
through
> > > the top soil only to hit giant rocks with not much soil at all
at that
> > > layer.
> > >
> > > Does anyone have any experience growing in these conditions?
> > >
> > >
> > > thanks!
> > >
> > > -Ty
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hi,
I rented a half acre garden which has not been cultivated for many
years. Garden is full of weeds and grass. Soil is deep and mellow. It
doesn't have access to running water. It is located in temparate-semi
arid region. (about 40 degrees latitude and 800m altitude)Main crop is
wheat-barley. I want to grow vegetables for family consumption in
natural farming methods. I don't have so much organic material to
create sheet mulch. I have access to lots of cardboards and some
summer leaves. Shall I cut tiles of grass, turn them backwards and put
cardboards under or over to create some sheet mulching effect.
I plan to grow transplants in a different place and move to garden
afterwards.
Any advice on how to proceed.
Thanks
Etem

--- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Javier Dávila
<j_h_davila@...> wrote:
>
>
> this is what i´m doing with the stones.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/13735317@N00/sets/72157594401878480/
>
> Javier h.

> >
> >
>Javier,

great photos.  Your walls look a lot like those we have here in New
England.  Your views may be better than ours, though.

thanks,

anthony  NH zone 5

Hello. My name is Mylee. I have been a member for some time and follow
the messages but have yet to add anything. I currently live in Japan
but am Canadian born. In the next few weeks I am headed to Singapore
and Hong Kong and was wondering if anyone is farming in either of
these places or know of any city farming communities there? Any
information would be greatly appreciated. With thanks, Mylee

Hi Mylee,

   Since Singapore is heavily urbanized with buildings and parking lots, much of
the growing activity there is on rooftops, mostly clever applications of
aeroponics and hydroponics.  A few people manage to practice Korean-style
natural soil farming (which uses plant extracts and innoculant cultures, but no
tilling, pesticide, or herbicide) as introduced by the Janong Natural Institute.
You can email them for more information janong@...
(http://www.janong.com/ENGLISH/02.htm).

     In Hong Kong, a good place to start might be Organic Gardens Ltd. in Cheung
Lek Village, Sheung Shui (they are probably more conventionally organic rather
than Fukuokan, but they engage in educational activities and might have some
leads for you).
   See
http://www.manulife.com.hk/manulife_public/english/content/newsroom/public_news/\
2005/16Dec05E.pdf
   (This link may come up very s-l-o-w-l-y).

   and

   http://www.producegreen.org.hk/eng/03.htm for some possible contacts to
organic, sustainable, and maybe even natural farmers in Hong Kong.

   Bob Monie
   Zone 8

myleenordin <mylesnordin@...> wrote:
           Hello. My name is Mylee. I have been a member for some time and follow
the messages but have yet to add anything. I currently live in Japan
but am Canadian born. In the next few weeks I am headed to Singapore
and Hong Kong and was wondering if anyone is farming in either of
these places or know of any city farming communities there? Any
information would be greatly appreciated. With thanks, Mylee






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi friends !!
      MY name is Matthew and am24 years old and  have currently joined this group
after a
friend of mine told me about it!! He brought me in contact with the work and
books about
Masanobu Fukuoka and after read One straw revolution!! He also told me about the
work of
Manikis Panagiotis and his farm in Greece ! Was after info about volunteering at
the farm of
Manikis Panagiotis? I am very intrested in continuing my learning in organic
farming and
reforesting! I have recently returned from south america where i have been
studying organic
agriculture and reforestation............... where i also came across the seed
ball method!!
Any info or help would be a blessing!
Thanks to all!!
Matthew

G'day Matthew,

Please tell us more about Manikis Panagiotis.

Matthew.
--- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "earthhobbit82"
<earthhobbit82@...> wrote:
>
> Hi friends !!
>      MY name is Matthew and am24 years old and  have currently
joined this group after a
> friend of mine told me about it!! He brought me in contact with the
work and books about
> Masanobu Fukuoka and after read One straw revolution!! He also told
me about the work of
> Manikis Panagiotis and his farm in Greece ! Was after info about
volunteering at the farm of
> Manikis Panagiotis? I am very intrested in continuing my learning in
organic farming and
> reforesting! I have recently returned from south america where i
have been studying organic
> agriculture and reforestation............... where i also came
across the seed ball method!!
> Any info or help would be a blessing!
> Thanks to all!!
> Matthew
>

I am announcing that my project (gaiavox.com) is going well and now I am
searching for a small farm near Montreal (Canada) to grow organic vegetables
and make a nursery for perenials and trees.
If somebody know about a farm near Montreal that would be on sale sale,
please let me know.

Sylvain Picker


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Mathew,
I have posted this info before but here it is.

Panos Manikis number is 2381-0-27-312 the country
code for greece is 30
you should call in the evenings 7-830 or in the mornings before 8 AM
greek time. He is hard to get a hold of - he recently moved again to
new quarters - he could not stay at his farm because his neighbors
spray chemicals for their trees - so it was not a healthy environment
to be breathing this sh---t. We build a cabin up on a hill near his
farm but far away from the spraying. He plans on having guests in the
summer - you should call him.

I have been silently following the discussions of this group with
interest - my own journey through this natural farming experience has
been very pleasant. My farm is getting fertile year by year - i have
planted about 100 trees - i have much to learn - have made mistakes.
My project to plant 1,000 trees in the nearby park ( was burned 10
years ago or so)is moving along. I hope to have good  results in the
spring and in the summer, and I will post photos in the spring.


Kostas



--- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "earthhobbit82"
<earthhobbit82@...> wrote:
>


> Hi friends !!
>      MY name is Matthew and am24 years old and  have currently
joined this group after a
> friend of mine told me about it!! He brought me in contact with the
work and books about
> Masanobu Fukuoka and after read One straw revolution!! He also told
me about the work of
> Manikis Panagiotis and his farm in Greece ! Was after info about
volunteering at the farm of
> Manikis Panagiotis? I am very intrested in continuing my learning in
organic farming and
> reforesting! I have recently returned from south america where i
have been studying organic
> agriculture and reforestation............... where i also came
across the seed ball method!!
> Any info or help would be a blessing!
> Thanks to all!!
> Matthew
>

Hi, Im 20 years old and am very interested in natural farming. I live
in NYC and its the winter so I dont really have much opportunity to
start. I did contact community gardens in my area so I will probably
start over there but I dont know how much room for experimentation I
will have. I just got Fukuokas book Natural Farming and am about half
way through it. It is very interesting but his style of writing is
confusing to me (maybe due to the translation).
I have a few questions. He says that a good way to enrich soil is to
bury coarse organic material deep down. Wouldnt this harm the topsoil
the same as deep-plowing? Or is this only to be done at first with a
very degraded soil (combined with seeding to make plants whose roots
dig deep into soil) and only very seldomly?
When using a cover crop such as clover and alfalfa to control weeds
why is it that the weeds are snuffed out and the vegetable or grain
crop makes it through?
When he talks about doing a winter planting of barley I take it that
his area never has very cold temperatures or freezing?
Is it always preferable to coat seeds with soil and clay prior to
direct sowing? does this make germination and thriving of plant more
certain?
I have many many more questions but that is it for now. Please answer.
Eventually my dream is to buy a piece of land in Bolivia (where my dad
is from) or somewhere else and start my own natural farm.
I have some questions. Is anyone experienced with rainwater harvesting
with earthworks (contour bunds, ponds, sunken planting bed, hand dug
wells,...) to be completely water sufficient for crops and orchards
from the rain alone (check out Brad Lancasters rainwater harvesting
excellent)? I know Fukuoka writes about planting on edge of a river
and using tree roots to transport the water to feed crops. But if
there are no rivers one would have to make ponds and wells and
countour bunds for water security.
Also does anyone have experience farming in South America. For example
anyone working on a similar system as the notill rice barley with
green manure but in south america? Im interested in working on a
similar system with quinoa (which is one of the most nutritive grain
known to man) tubers cover crops etc...
Also I wrote to the Agroecology program at the University of Santa
Cruz asking about some of the things Ive read in Fukuokas book and
elsewhere (polyculture) and here is the answer:

Of the myriad of activities that take place here on the farm many are
directly linked to principles of agroecology. We have an extremely
diverse production system with lots of examples of agroforestry,
intercropping, minimum tillage and beneficial habitat enhancement.
We provide an undergraduate course to 80 UCSC students each year that
has, as its lab, a 1/2 acre intercrop study. Our 2 acres of
handworked garden beds couldn't be a better example of intercropping.
Even our 10 acre CSA production area consists of a many many rows of
different crops all "alley cropped". Our cover-cropping system is one
huge intercrop of a mix of cereals, legumes (bell beans, peas and
vetch) and mustards. This cover crop dominates our system from
October through March. One of our recent experimental trials that was
funded though USDA was as potato/corn intercrop study. We have
studied no-till farming for years through field trials and less
formal experimentation. We have concluded that, in our particular
climate, no-till farming would not be economically feasible given our
current level of management expertise.  Some our our no-till yields
drop by as much as 90 percent compared to tilled crops. We are
currently working on systems that work to minimize tillage. We are
using an undercutting bar in the fall to simply undercut standing
crops and then we are using a minimum till grain drill to plant cover
crop seed directly into the relatively undisturbed soil. This system
leaves the crop residue on the surface and greatly minimizes surface
crusting from heavy rain and also greatly minimizes fossil fuel use.
Please understand that, for the most part,  the no-till systems that
are commercially viable are highly reliant on synthetic materials
such as herbicides and fertility inputs and are also reliant on
extremely expensive and very specific machinery. No till works on a
very large commercial/conventional scale with very specific agronomic
crops such and corn and soy and it also works well on very small,
very labor intensive back yard systems but It has been very
challenging to adopt these practices to mid-scale, organic, diverse
vegetable systems. One of the reasons is that it is challenging for
small-scale growers to afford the specific machinery designed for
no-till farming. One of our goals is to continue to work on
minimizing petroleum inputs into our system but we have a long way to
go in learning how best to manage no-till systems.  Keep reading and
learning and I encourage you to visit farms and farmers markets and
talk to farmers about the challenges of no-till and polyculture
systems. If you ever get a chance, please come by our farm for a
visit.

And thats what they answered. Thanks for reading this whole post and
please answer a question or two.
thank you, Kiko

does anybody know of or have any information about p.a.yeomans keyline systme of
land management, soil improvement.

  __________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I do not understand that reply you had at all.  Why does he say that
no till farmers need expensive equipment to farm that way making it
economically unfeasible?  Native Americans, as well as other
aboriginal cultures used no till farming for a long time.  They made
their own seed drills from wooden sticks.  How is that expensive?
They had higher yields than the Europeans did in Early America after
their plows arrived.

If you use living mulches....or just plain mulch well...you don't
need extensive use of herbicides.  It sounds to me like they didn't
till, but then they still farmed the way they always did/do.

I am a bit surprised that this came out of California since it was
there that they began to see that they, for instance, needed to leave
the wheat straw on the fields when they planted their new crops to
avoid whitefly infestations.  The wheat straw mulch saved the corn
crops in those fields doing that when the rest of the California
farmers lost their entire corn crops to disease caused by
whiteflies.  Those fields were not plowed.  The whiteflies were
controlled in those fields because their predator insects were able
to hide in the straw and eat the whiteflies when they showed up.

And....California is one of those states I thought was dedicated to
reducing carbon emissions by not plowing.  Guess I need more sleep,
or new glasses to get my facts straight.

As I understand it Fukuoka only did things like burying trees, or
other coarse material deep down, when he started out.

Yes, his area of Japan is more temperate than New York is.

Dontcha love Brad Lancaster's books on Harvesting Rainwater?  I have
dug swales before reading his books.  I was inspired by his article
on the Man Who Farms Water in Zimbabwe.  That was who inspired him to
research and experiment as he did in Tuscon, Arizona, as I am sure
you know from reading the books.

In a sidebar on the above which is not meant to insult anyone in any
way, did you all see that Mugabe has asked the white farmers he
ousted to come back to farm giving them 99 year leases?  His country
is facing starvation and economic collapse...the reasons he gave for
doing this about face.  I see it not as a matter of race, but as a
matter of expertise in farming that the nonfarming population
apparently did not have enough of to sustain the country.  Perhaps
they should have conferred harder with the Man Who Farms Water?  That
is what brought it all to Lancaster's, and everyone else's
attention...Mr. Phirri's methods of holding and using water that
others let run off and wasted.  Mr. Phirri is black and could
probably teach the white farmers quite a bit, if they would listen to
him.  I suspect if he were Minister of Agriculture the country would
be in much better shape at the moment.

I guess my long winded point, Kiko, is that in farming it seems quite
often to be the simple man who has the most to contribute in
farming.  Fukuoka has expertise in science, but he also went to the
roots of Nature to figure out we were making errors by interfering as
much as we have been.  I think that is the problem with the man who
answered your query.  He makes it all too technical and difficult.

One of the problems with mechanized farming is that to accomodate it
plants are space farther apart and usually monocropped as well.  That
creates problems immediately because plants do better closer together
in community with one another.  They provide shade for the soil and
each other to conserve moisture.  Each has a particular disease, or
insect it can repel which then serves the community of plants to make
them all healthier.  Those with longer roots reach down to bring them
all more nutrition as the grow making them able to fight the insects
and diseases they cannot repel otherwise.  Monocropped vegetables and
fruits don't have this protection which makes them more easily doomed
to failure.

That is another reason that the clovers work so well.  In many cases
the timing of the planting is the key to why the clovers
repel 'weeds' and not the plants we put in the garden.

And why does everyone think the weeds are problems?  As long as they
are not overpopulated in the garden/farm they are not problems, but
instead they are assets.  Weeds grow where they are needed.

Take some time and sit and observe for a whole day an area.  Do this
as often as you can...though daily is not necessary. Do it for more
than one season.  If you do that, you will notice that the weeds that
grew in a place one year don't always come back the next, even though
their seeds obviously were scattered all over that area.  When their
job is done they do not regrow.  Other weeds take their place to do
their job until it is done.  It does sometimes take years for that
job to be done in particularly bad soils.

Gloria, Texas

--- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "kikoricco" <kikoricco@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi, Im 20 years old and am very interested in natural farming. I
live
> in NYC and its the winter so I dont really have much opportunity to
> start. I did contact community gardens in my area so I will probably
> start over there but I dont know how much room for experimentation I
> will have. I just got Fukuokas book Natural Farming and am about
half
> way through it. It is very interesting but his style of writing is
> confusing to me (maybe due to the translation).
> I have a few questions. He says that a good way to enrich soil is to
> bury coarse organic material deep down. Wouldnt this harm the
topsoil
> the same as deep-plowing? Or is this only to be done at first with a
> very degraded soil (combined with seeding to make plants whose roots
> dig deep into soil) and only very seldomly?
> When using a cover crop such as clover and alfalfa to control weeds
> why is it that the weeds are snuffed out and the vegetable or grain
> crop makes it through?
> When he talks about doing a winter planting of barley I take it that
> his area never has very cold temperatures or freezing?
> Is it always preferable to coat seeds with soil and clay prior to
> direct sowing? does this make germination and thriving of plant more
> certain?
> I have many many more questions but that is it for now. Please
answer.
> Eventually my dream is to buy a piece of land in Bolivia (where my
dad
> is from) or somewhere else and start my own natural farm.
> I have some questions. Is anyone experienced with rainwater
harvesting
> with earthworks (contour bunds, ponds, sunken planting bed, hand dug
> wells,...) to be completely water sufficient for crops and orchards
> from the rain alone (check out Brad Lancasters rainwater harvesting
> excellent)? I know Fukuoka writes about planting on edge of a river
> and using tree roots to transport the water to feed crops. But if
> there are no rivers one would have to make ponds and wells and
> countour bunds for water security.
> Also does anyone have experience farming in South America. For
example
> anyone working on a similar system as the notill rice barley with
> green manure but in south america? Im interested in working on a
> similar system with quinoa (which is one of the most nutritive grain
> known to man) tubers cover crops etc...
> Also I wrote to the Agroecology program at the University of Santa
> Cruz asking about some of the things Ive read in Fukuokas book and
> elsewhere (polyculture) and here is the answer:
>
> Of the myriad of activities that take place here on the farm many
are
> directly linked to principles of agroecology. We have an extremely
> diverse production system with lots of examples of agroforestry,
> intercropping, minimum tillage and beneficial habitat enhancement.
> We provide an undergraduate course to 80 UCSC students each year
that
> has, as its lab, a 1/2 acre intercrop study. Our 2 acres of
> handworked garden beds couldn't be a better example of
intercropping.
> Even our 10 acre CSA production area consists of a many many rows
of
> different crops all "alley cropped". Our cover-cropping system is
one
> huge intercrop of a mix of cereals, legumes (bell beans, peas and
> vetch) and mustards. This cover crop dominates our system from
> October through March. One of our recent experimental trials that
was
> funded though USDA was as potato/corn intercrop study. We have
> studied no-till farming for years through field trials and less
> formal experimentation. We have concluded that, in our particular
> climate, no-till farming would not be economically feasible given
our
> current level of management expertise.  Some our our no-till yields
> drop by as much as 90 percent compared to tilled crops. We are
> currently working on systems that work to minimize tillage. We are
> using an undercutting bar in the fall to simply undercut standing
> crops and then we are using a minimum till grain drill to plant
cover
> crop seed directly into the relatively undisturbed soil. This
system
> leaves the crop residue on the surface and greatly minimizes
surface
> crusting from heavy rain and also greatly minimizes fossil fuel
use.
> Please understand that, for the most part,  the no-till systems
that
> are commercially viable are highly reliant on synthetic materials
> such as herbicides and fertility inputs and are also reliant on
> extremely expensive and very specific machinery. No till works on a
> very large commercial/conventional scale with very specific
agronomic
> crops such and corn and soy and it also works well on very small,
> very labor intensive back yard systems but It has been very
> challenging to adopt these practices to mid-scale, organic, diverse
> vegetable systems. One of the reasons is that it is challenging for
> small-scale growers to afford the specific machinery designed for
> no-till farming. One of our goals is to continue to work on
> minimizing petroleum inputs into our system but we have a long way
to
> go in learning how best to manage no-till systems.  Keep reading
and
> learning and I encourage you to visit farms and farmers markets and
> talk to farmers about the challenges of no-till and polyculture
> systems. If you ever get a chance, please come by our farm for a
> visit.
>
> And thats what they answered. Thanks for reading this whole post and
> please answer a question or two.
> thank you, Kiko
>

Have a look at the Yeomans site:
http://www.yeomansplow.com.au/

The real idea behind it is water catchment: swales, dams and ripping the soil
with a Yeomans plow or equivalent.

Douglas JE Barnes
EcoEdge Design
http://www.ecoedge.ca
dbarnes@...



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Maihki asks: "Does anybody know of or have any information about
p.a.yeomans keyline systme of land management, soil improvement."

Maihki,

A good friend, Abe Collins in Vermont, U.S.A. introduced me to the
writings and work of P. A. Yeomans' "Keyline System" a number of
years ago in written correspondence on other matters. I had the
pleasure of visiting his (Abe's) farm utilizing a few of the
functioning Yeomans sub-systems in Vermont early in March 2006. Abe
says they are changing (adding) topsoil and root systems at the rate
of six inches a year following these low cost, yet effective
procedures and sub-systems.

One of the many systems' elements is a type of minimum tillage plow,
and should be of interest to all commercial size agriculturalists
such as myself, along with flood irrigation systems. The plow in
particular is in keeping with Masanobu Fukuoka's tenets of non-or
minimum tillage.

I was so impressed with Abes' trust and study knowledge in these
system technologies, and with what I had witnessed, (and too my trust
in Abe's research and data) that I took the step to add the systems
to "The Elysian Fields and Pasture Project" written core element
principles this spring.

Folks who follow Vermont weather, know that early spring 2006 was dry
and then most of this summer was wet beyond record. The farm flood
irrigation sub-system didn't receive a test due to the wetness of the
entire growing season; however their use of this  minimum invasive
type plow in existing deep sod created a healthy soil structure,
uniquely suited to handle the aggressive and excessive wetness.

This is older farm technology, that got drowned out by commercializm
decades ago, revisited. Its a proven keeper.

Be safe. Sincerely.

Royal A. Purdy, The Elysian Fields and Pasture Project
A.H. Tuttle and Company
Farmington – Canandaigua, New York 14425
www.ahtuttle.com
rapurdy@...
315-986-7007

it advised burrying organic matter as a one time thing to speed up the process
of regenerating soils depleted of organic matter and bio life  . his hillside
was a pine forest probably harvested for centuries with only red clay left
.after that the maintenance of fertility is done thru growing plants ( trees
also ) which purpose is to rot on the spot.
   clover and grains are plants that complete each other spatially and in
functions leaving less room for weeds . grains especially fill the ecological
niche of a grass limiting the need for wild grasses to establish .it is also a
question of timing,  to fill the ecological niches  .
   in a conventional tilled field the tillage  create a void that weeds are in
hurry to fill while in an allready established association of plants there is
way less opportunity for new plants to have a chance .

   <Some our our no-till yields
   drop by as much as 90 percent compared to tilled crops. >

   when a horse have been walking for long,  hitting it with a stick will keep it
going for a while until...it drop dead .
   same with soils that have been mined by monocropping on tilled field , you
stop hitting with the stick ( tilling or fertilising ) it takes a rest . the
problem , of looking for commercially oriented studies on farming,  as guidance
for understanding the way of nature , is that they will allways come with the
same anwers like the guy , which economic survival depend on the horse,  will
tell you : never stop hitting this damned horse !

   the difficulty in natural farming is not a technical one,  it is one of
struggle in the relationship between humans desires and nature plans .

   what masanobu fukuoka propose is a radical shift in attitude toward self and
nature . it is the ground work allowing possible social initiatives  that will
question , at the roots of it , all the present social covenants that manifest
itself into an economic system which purpose is not the welfare of either people
and other living communities .

   natural farming by its very most powerfull first assumption that nature do the
growing will relieve humans from the illusion of trying to do better , and will
cancel by the way,   the need to sell  illusionary "plus values"( increase in
values.
   the monetary economic system have no future nor past in nature .
   natural farming is allready achieved . up to us to aligne ourselves with it or
not.

   no university is designed to just do that for us !

   jean-claude





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

P A Yeomans book "The City Forest" is a good read for anyone lucky enough to
find a copy (one is currently for sale for $103 on Amazon.com).  After other
plows "broke the prairie," and created the American Dust Bowl, Yeomans' chisel
plow helped restore the land. Some of his recommendations resemble those later
popularized as permaculture and forest farming, and he continued some practices
of the earlier ley farmers as well, especially relating humus and topsoil
formation.

   In his "Keyline System," he recommended "changing the subsoil conditions to
better suit the aerobic soil organisms' conversion of sub-soil into topsoil." 
He pointed out that "the organisms need warmth, space for air and moisture, plus
a plentiful supply of high protein food."  This emphasis on the singlular role
of protein (probably what we today would call glycoproteins) rather than
carbohydrates in creating topsoil anticipates the insights of Dr. Michael
Melendrez today. Yeomans considered the "root systems of pasture legumes" the
preferred food source for the microbes that produce humus. He stated that "for
rapid soil growth some of the roots [of these pasture legumes] must die."  His
method was to periodically "use stock to quickly eat down most of the
aboveground parts of the plant," preferably at flowering time just when the
legume roots have turned from white to brown and also to disturb the roots
themselves, to help break them down.

   For Yeomans, humus was mainly the product of the right microbes (what we would
today identify as the Glomus family?) feeding on the right decaying and
partially disturbed legume roots at the right time, just after the they began to
flower. The process was optimized by letting the animals chew up or claw up the
pasture just enough to "prepare" the root feast for the microbes.

   So, there is much more to Yeomans than his admittedly innovative chisel plow
and methods of capturing water. Ultimately, it is the roots and their microbial
communities that make the humus, and Yeoman understood this well.

   Bob Monie
   Zone 8

   Yeomans' out of print books sell on amazon.com for $100.00 or more, when you
can find them. I suspect that Yeomans', like Hugh Corley and the other English
ley and
   pasture farmers, is one more nearly-forgotten master that we can learn from
today in
   our attempts to regrow lost topsoil.

   Bob Monie
   New Orleans/River Ridge, LA




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks everyone! It seems every person who answers and I understand a
little bit more about natural farming. It really seems too good to be
true. I guess I was thrown off by the simplicity of it all. I cant
wait to start.