On track Stephen, and just another expression of the arrogant pride of modern man! Whose propositionalism covers over the rootage of all human being, knowing, and doing, so that they are blinded to it and then take their high level abstractions as basic and foundational as if they were laying the foundations of a building ten feet off the ground and did not realize it which is why modern philosophy shipwrecks because its foundations are no foundations at all! Of course there are existential and real foundations but these are to a great degree preconceptual and prepropsitional and pervade all areas of human experience whether noticed or not including all areas of conceptual and propositional use. The master at showing this is the early Heidegger in "Being and Time" and other early and middle writings.
Blessings,
Jon
Stephen Shields wrote:
To follow Chris’ example!Transpropositionalism – that reality extends beyond what can be expressed in language (though language can accurately speak to some reality)
Propositionalism – (new?) reality can be fully captured in language
Epistemic – of or having to do with knowledge.
Referent – that to which a language reference refers (sorry, a bit tautological, I know)
Tautological (oops!) – a colloquial defn:a definition that uses the term being defined in the definition!
Foundationalism – the believe that knowledge is based on basic beliefs, which are indisputable items of knowledge in no need of reasons. (e.g. Descartes – “I think therefore I am”)
Anthropocentric – man-centered
“I like "transpropositional." I think all propositional knowing is transpropositional since the function of propositions, it seems to me, are (1) to focus our attention and the attention of those we are communicating with on the referents of the propositions and the referents of propositions are not usually propositions. Propositions are self-effacing in that they take us to things that they are about when they are true propositions. Propositions are intrinsically relational in the sense that they are ways of verbalizing in order to focus on what are, usually non propositional entities or events. (2) They also reveal our present interests and understandings both as achievements and also as finite and limited and deficient in the sense that propositional understanding can never fully capture the being of anything! So, it is tragic misuse of intellect and propositions to see them as ends in themselves!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They are always a means to connecting with their referents and also with our own understanding of something that is finite. Propositions are intrinsically relational in terms of being utterances of ourselves and simultaneously pointing to their referents. “
I’m glad you like transpropostional, jon.My goal in life is now to get mentioned in a footnote in your forthcoming books!J
I was re-reading this and thinking about your earlier comments to me (I can’t recall if it was in private correspondence or on faithmaps) that Descartes fatal error was making his starting point epistemic certainty.It occurs to me that if a you are beginning with a strong foundationalism, then you can subscribe to the fiction of propositionalism (and I’m coining (or maybe others have?) this term as the opposite of a transpropositionalism).If man can achieve epistemic certainty (and I mean anthropocentric certainty) than I think it follows (and correct this move if I’m wrong) that objective propositionalism can be seen as exhaustive.Actually I think I recall Descartes explicitly says this – something about “there is nothing man cannot determine”Does this seem on track (jon and anyone)?
Stephen Shields
sshields@...
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