:
Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:50:00 -0500
From:
Jonathan M Gold <goldj@...>
Organization:
West Liberty State College
To:
faithmaps@yahoogroups.com
References:
1




Hi, Chris!

A few more thoughts and requests on your post!

I think you ought to define 'truth', 'objective truth', and 'subjective truth'
in the light of your claims!

There is a big difference between an objective truth claim and truth. Since
objective truth claims can be false! Also, what kind of
distortions? Certainly any claim of truth is an abstraction and as such cannot
represent all of what ti claims to be true about. Can
people say things that are
distorting yes. So? Give examples of what you mean.


Give an example of what you mean by a dichotomy of subjective truth and
objective truth! Please!


You talk about the Bible. The Bible does have many different meanings for
truth. Look and see!!!!!! I offer some below!


You say where does the Bible ever speak like this..I think you mean where does
the Bible ever make claims of objective truth?

How about John 1:1-5,14? How about John 8:58? John 14:6 Just a few verses out
of thousands of verses!

You make all kinds of false dichotomies in your claims with no illustrations or
examples. Sounds like you are committing straw man
fallacies at a great rate of speed!

What is received in faith, Chris? Certainly it is many things and not one type
of thing, right?

I do not get the fact value, epistemology splits you talk about? Examples?

How can there be embodied witness without truth, Chris? In the Bible there are
many kinds of truth, propositional, lived, obedient,
all are seen as interrelated, not at war with one another.

Here are just a few of many Scriptures for your consideration:
From 2 Thessalonians 2:

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with
the breath of His mouth and shall destroy with the
brightness of His coming,
9 whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs
and lying wonders,
10 and with all deceit of unrighteousness in those who perish, because they did
not receive the love of the truth, so that they might
be saved.

[J Truth! Love of Truth!?! Some relation to salvation, faith, grace, it
sounds like, right?]

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should
believe a lie, 12 so that all those who do not believe
the truth, but delight in unrighteousness, might be condemned.

[J Do not believe what? Is this subjective or objective truth in the passage?]

13 ¶ But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brothers beloved of
the Lord, because God has from the beginning chosen you
to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth,
14 to which He called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our
Lord Jesus Christ.

[J Belief in what? And does not belief in the truth have something to do with
grace and faith?]

15 Therefore, my brothers, stand fast and hold the teachings which you have
been taught,
whether by word or by our letter.

[J and what were those teachings? Just anything WE think? Why “Hold fast?”
Were those teachings Paul is talking about true?]


From John 8:

30 As He spoke these words, many believed upon Him.
31 ¶ Then Jesus said to the Jews who believed on Him, If you continue in My
word, you are My disciples indeed.
32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.


[J The truth makes free, studied from the Word? What kind of truth is this?]

33 They answered Him, We are Abraham’s seed and were never in bondage to
anyone. How do you say, You will be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Whoever practices sin is
the slave of sin.
35 And the slave does not abide in the house forever, but the Son abides
forever.
36 Therefore if the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed.

[J What is Jesus’s concept of freedom here? IS it consistent with libertarian
freedom?]

From John 17:

17 ¶ Sanctify them through Your truth. Your Word is truth.

[J Truth, God’s truth used to sanctify?????? Objective, subjective? Both?
Neither?]


18 As You have sent Me into the world, even so I have sent them into the world.
19 And I sanctify Myself for their sakes, so that they also might be sanctified
in truth.

[J What kind of truth here? ]


From 1 John 2:

20 ¶ But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.
21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you
know it, and know that no lie is of the truth.

[J Truth the opposite of a lie? Objective? Or what?]

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He who denies the
Father and the Son is anti-christ.
23 Everyone who denies the Son neither has the Father. The one confessing the
Son also has the Father.

[J Deny the Son, then the denier has not the Father. Objective falsehood with a
powerful consequence? ]

Now if you would like to have a discussion where terms are defined, we could
begin to see the many different kinds of truth that are
mentioned in the Bible and how they are related to one another.

Blessings,

Jon

Chris G Criminger wrote:

Hi Everyone,
What is being said when we say that something is not simply true but that
it is 'objectively' true? Are we suggesting different kinds of truth?
Again I ask, where does the Bible ever speak like this? (I ask---what is
gained by speaking like this?). Is it proper to make such a dichotomy
that separates subjective truth (which is somehow bad) from objective
truth (which is somehow intrinsically good?). Is truth best understood
as an "object" to be possessed? Is it true as often the claim goes that
all rational people should recognize this kind of 'objective truth' and
anyone who does not then is simply deemed irrational?

Objective truth claims often not only distort reality (gives more
assurances than existence warrants much less divides reality up into too
many split compartments) but has even separated beliefs from behavior;
individual from community; facts from values; and epistemology from
ethics. Objective truth often gives the impression that the Christian
faith is a matter of demonstratable facts rather than a matter of grace
received in faith. Objective truth often claims that Christianity is
true no matter how we live. But the central practices and virtues that
the community of faith embodies either gives truth credibility or it
loses all credibility by not practicing things such as forgiveness,
reconciliation, peace-making, patience, truth telling, trust,
vulnerability, faithfulness, and simplicity of life.

Often when I hear Evangelicals speak of objective truth, they are
promoting their own brand of truth that they think everyone must agree
with and their exclusivistic claims is to conformity to certain
propositions and dogma which comes awful close to reducing the Christian
faith to some modern form of Gnosticism (as if knowledge actually saves
us rather than a person). What the world is waiting for, and what the
church seems reluctant to offer, is not more incessant talk about
objective truth, but an embodied witness that clearly demonstrates why
anyone should care about any of this in the first place.

Grace and peace - Chris Criminger
Vallonia Indiana

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Chris G Criminger wrote:

> Hi Everyone,
> What is being said when we say that something is not simply true but that
> it is 'objectively' true? Are we suggesting different kinds of truth?
> Again I ask, where does the Bible ever speak like this? (I ask---what is
> gained by speaking like this?). Is it proper to make such a dichotomy
> that separates subjective truth (which is somehow bad) from objective
> truth (which is somehow intrinsically good?). Is truth best understood
> as an "object" to be possessed? Is it true as often the claim goes that
> all rational people should recognize this kind of 'objective truth' and
> anyone who does not then is simply deemed irrational?
>
> Objective truth claims often not only distort reality (gives more
> assurances than existence warrants much less divides reality up into too
> many split compartments) but has even separated beliefs from behavior;
> individual from community; facts from values; and epistemology from
> ethics. Objective truth often gives the impression that the Christian
> faith is a matter of demonstratable facts rather than a matter of grace
> received in faith. Objective truth often claims that Christianity is
> true no matter how we live. But the central practices and virtues that
> the community of faith embodies either gives truth credibility or it
> loses all credibility by not practicing things such as forgiveness,
> reconciliation, peace-making, patience, truth telling, trust,
> vulnerability, faithfulness, and simplicity of life.
>
> Often when I hear Evangelicals speak of objective truth, they are
> promoting their own brand of truth that they think everyone must agree
> with and their exclusivistic claims is to conformity to certain
> propositions and dogma which comes awful close to reducing the Christian
> faith to some modern form of Gnosticism (as if knowledge actually saves
> us rather than a person). What the world is waiting for, and what the
> church seems reluctant to offer, is not more incessant talk about
> objective truth, but an embodied witness that clearly demonstrates why
> anyone should care about any of this in the first place.
>
> Grace and peace - Chris Criminger
> Vallonia Indiana
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
>
>
> You can visit the faithmaps Yahoo groups web site to modify your
> delivery settings and review former messages @
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/faithmaps
>
> Delivery Options: individual emails, 1 digest email a day, or no email (all
emails can be read and responded to at the site above)
>
> Want to unsubscribe? Just send a blank note to
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>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/