My responses will begin with [J
Stephen Shields wrote:
Jon wrote:
“Jon responds: such an epistemology needs to start with what the Bible says the unregenerate knows, what the unregenerate knows and avoids, and what the unregenerate cannot know until and unless the unregenerate become regenerate. See Romans 1:18-32 and 1 Cor. 1:21 which tell us that the unregenerate know God through the existence of everything and also in their conscience in Romans 2:15 and yet in 1 Cor. 1:21 where in the Wisdom of God, the world by its wisdom does not know God. Now, the world by its wisdom knows God because God shows Himself to everyone at every time and in every place but unregenerate people hate this knowledge and exchange it for a lie, etc. Romans 1:18-32. Now, they can never fully repress this data because the existence of themselves and everything else show forth their maker, He who is existence itself:, God. So, the world erects false wisdoms to insulate out the awareness of the true God and the world erects false gods in the place of the true God. Which is why unregenerate people have FALSE knowledge of God versus regenerate people having true knowledge of God when they have propositional knowledge of God that is true to the Scripture and to the God of Scripture and when with this propositional knowledge there is the living and on-going dynamic interactive relationship with God going on.....where propositional understanding is always being modified and corrected in the light of the actual interactive experience of God....where it is clear that knowledge of god as objective is always being developed, corrected By Him as He communicates, simultaneously on-going knowledge of Himself and us in our prayer-conversational life with Him and in all the providential circumstances that He unceasingly provides in every situation that he has us in and which he gradually teaches to pay attention to and to begin to increase our on-going awarenss of Him and how, as pagan poets said Acts 17: "in Him, we live, move, and have our being." We are enveloped by Him who gives us the power to be and to continue to be and gives us existential space where we, once regenerated, begin with the understanding and sight and hearing that He provides, 1 John 5:20, Deuteronomy 29:4 to have a true knowledge of Him and of ours selves. There is much here to learn from Scripture, from Calvin, from the early Methodist, John Fletcher who wrote a book on the Spiritual senses that was so good the modern Calvinist, Lloyd-Jones wrote a preface to the paperback version! Secular epistemology will not be all that much help here except to provide excellent analyses of concepts that are necessary for good work. Though see William Alston on "perceiving God." Note also that what I am hinting at are the existential foundations for knowing both God and oneself that God provides for His people once they are regenerated!
Peace!
Jon “
Thanks, Jon, the differentiation between regenerate and unregenerate people is significant.Bringing to bear the issue of virtue to the discussion is important.I have a related questions.Is the concept of the basicality of belief in God in the Reformed Epistemologists (Plantinga, Wolterstorff, and Alston) based on Romans 1 and 1 Cor. 1 or something else?Would they point there?
[J Virtue is important. so is vice! Unregenerate people are epstemically depraved. This is sometimes called "the noetic effects of sin."
As to the Reformed epistemology, I cannot say!!! I am not sure as to the answer to the question. I suspect that the answer is no. Calvin is wonderful on these issues and so is Van Til and Bahnsen.
(For those of you not up on Reformed Epistemology, a basic belief is an undeniable belief that needs no basis.It’s the same status that Descartes was claiming for “I think therefore I am.It’s the bottom foundation for epistemological foundationalism).
I do think that Polanyi is relevant here, though, as his work would be relevant to your comments that our knowledge of God is significantly impacted by the *process* of walking in relationship with Him on a daily basis.This is the kind of knowledge that seems to be missed so much in secular epistemology.
[J I do not know Polyani, have the book "personal knowledge' but I have not studied it yet, I will though as I get vol 1 of Existenmtial foundations done and move on to volume 2.
Blessings!
Jon
Stephen Shields
sshields@...
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