Denny wrote:

I have no problem with discussing this, but I'm just suprised that a cold,
hard, rational system as TULIP is being discussed on a pomo site because one
of the "characteristics" of pomo is the inability to box people into a
particular position

ss:

Firstly, let me say that I'm not a professional philosopher. Having said
that, some have seen the influence of Enlightenment Rationalism thru Thomas
Reid's Scottish Common Sense Realism influence on the Old Princeton men
(Hodge, Warfield, etc. ) and this arguably could be an influence on current
Calvinistic formulations. But Calvinism at its roots predates modernity
(though I suppose some could easily find common roots). Nevertheless, with
respect, Denny, let me 1) caution against making a judgement against an
entire school of thought based on those who might formulate it - or advocate
it - in extreme forms and 2) especially note that a distinction must be made
between Calvinism as a school of thought and 5 point Calvinists who put
Christians such as myself to shame because of their passionate and
practically expressed love for Jesus and others (I consider myself a 4 point
Calvinism for those who will accept that such a theological animal is
possible). I have little doubt that there are those who have worse theology
than mine who nevertheless please God more. (I *don't* mean the 5 pointers
specifically! and, yes, I do believe there are limits)


Instructive for all of us is the Arminian Wesley's funeral for ardent
Calvinist George Whitfield at

where he said, for example,

"Mention has already been made of his unparalleled zeal, his indefatigable
activity, his tender-heartedness to the afflicted, and charitableness toward
the poor. But should we not likewise mention his deep gratitude to all whom
God had used as instruments of good to him? -- of whom he did not cease to
speak in the most respectful manner, even to his dying day. Should we not
mention, that he had a heart susceptible of the most generous and the most
tender friendship? I have frequently thought that this, of all others, was
the distinguishing part of his character. How few have we known of so kind a
temper, of such large and flowing affections! Was it not principally by
this, that the hearts of others were so strangely drawn and knit to him? Can
anything but love beget love? This shone in his very countenance, and
continually breathed in all his words, whether in public or private. Was it
not this, which, quick and penetrating as lightning, flew from heart to
heart? which gave that life to his sermons, his conversations, his letters?
Ye are witnesses!"

See the entire sermon @

http://www.piney.com/WhitefSer54Funeral.html

Of the occasion of this funeral sermon Sugden notes,

"It must not be forgotten that at this very time Wesley was in the thick of
the controversy with the Rev. Walter Shirley and the Countess of
Huntingdon's preachers about the famous Minutes of 1770, in which Wesley had
laid down clearly the differences between his views and those of the
Calvinists. It is much to the credit both of Mr. Whitefield's friends and of
Wesley that this was not allowed to interfere with their invitation to him
to preach the sermon, nor with his own affectionate and ungrudging
recognition of the greatness and goodness of his departed fellow worker.
Indeed, their difference of opinion had never, since the dispute in 1741,
been permitted to interrupt their mutual love and esteem; they agreed to
differ, and still to love one another. "

Perhaps one might think Wesley's message was mere sermonesque inflated
rhetoric? Read Whitfield's letter to Wesley (I almost wrote "before he
died" and then caught myself! :) :

"The doctrine of election, I am 10,000 times more convinced that I was when
I saw you last. You believe otherwise. Why, then, should we dispute when
there is no possibility of convincing each other? Will it not in the end
destroy our brotherly love? How glad would be the enemies of the Lord to
see us divided. .... Were you here, I would weap over you with tears of
joy."

Whitfield also deeply respected Wesley.

Once Whitfield was asked by the press:

"Mr. Whitfield, do you even think that John Wesley will be in heaven?

"No, I don't think that I will see John Wesley in heaven," replied the
great preacher.

"You won't see John Wesley in heaven?" the reporter followed.

Whitfield said, "No, listen to me. John Wesley is such a godly man, that
he'll be so close to the throne of God in heaven and I'll be so far away
that I won't even seen him in heaven."

We also see this largeness of spirit earlier between these schools of
thought. Read Jacobus Arminius words about Calvin's Institutes:

"Next to the study of the Scriptures which I earnestly inculcate, I exhort
my pupils to peruse Calvin’s Commentaries, which I extol in loftier terms
than Helmich himself (a Dutch divine, 1551–1608); for I affirm that he
excels beyond comparison (incomparabilem esse) in the interpretation of
Scripture, and that his commentaries ought to be more highly valued than all
that is handed down to us by the library of the fathers; so that I
acknowledge him to have possessed above most others, or rather above all
other men, what may be called an eminent spirit of prophecy (spiritum
aliquem prophetiae eximium). His Institutes ought to be studied after the
[Heidelberg] Catechism, as containing a fuller explanation, but with
discrimination (cum delectu), like the writings of all men."

I want to encourage all of us not to stereotype *the people* in schools of
thought with which we disagree or to collapse people down to those doctrines
on which we disagree with them.

Denny, please also understanding I'm not directing all of this to you but as
an encouragement for all of us.


Stephen Shields
sshields@...
http://www.faithmaps.org
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/faithmaps/
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