Folks, please, the request says "please let me know", not the whole
list. It means please reply to existlist1@..., not the whole
list.

Signature......
"In the best relationships sex is the booby prize."
- Zeitman

got it
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Wyatt" <existlist1@...>
To: <existlist@egroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 12:20 AM
Subject: [existlist] Messages not routing...


> The Exist List has not been routing to all members, including myself
> of all people.
>
> If anyone on the list does receive this, please let me know. The
> change from oneList to eGroups should not have caused any problems,
> but one never knows.
>
> - C. S. Wyatt
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Was the salesman clueless? Productopia has the answers.
> http://click.egroups.com/1/3019/5/_/433398/_/957068434/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> From The Exist List...
> http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist
>
>

_____________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Click here for FREE Internet Access and Email
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html

roy, you are absolutely right about the bigger and bigger
picture...from the neutron to the mass...however, the question still
stands...having a purpose means that you could derive operating
principles from a system, an ecosystem or any organization of masses?
vs


--- In existlist@egroups.com, roy <royjem@n...> wrote:
> Hello victoria,
> I wonder, do you think that if an Enzyme in a cows digestion system
knew
> it's helping him digest weeds it would give a meaning to it's life?
or
> would he think to which operating principles does the cow belong to
and
> weather she has her meaning as well? and so on....
> Even if we had the tools to know the larger picture of our
surroundings and
> the physical rules by which they work, the question would still
stand
> regarding the larger picture, wouldn't it? As long as that is the
way the
> question is phrased...
>
>
> At 20:52 2000-04-03 +0000, you wrote:
> >I am currently reading "The Myth of Sisysphus" by Camus and I am
> >having a great deal of pleasure in doing it...However, I would like
> >to place the following question for this group:
> >I think that human life, belongs like any other form of life, to a
> >global ecosystem and we may even extend it to the whole physical
> >universe. So if this is indeed the case, does the universe contain
> >some operating principles from which we may derive some values by
> >which we may judge whether life has a meaning?
> >

hey, i got it, man....lil' late but what does it matter...

Christopher Wyatt <existlist1@...> wrote:

The Exist List has not been routing to all members, including myself
of all people.

If anyone on the list does receive this, please let me know. The
change from oneList to eGroups should not have caused any problems,
but one never knows.

- C. S. Wyatt

---

---

From The Exist List...
http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist

REMOVE

--- existlist@egroups.com wrote:
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Get paid for the stuff you know!
> Get answers for the stuff you don’t. And get $10 to
> spend on the site!
>
http://click.egroups.com/1/2200/5/_/433398/_/957344721/
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> From The Exist List...
> http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> There is 1 message in this issue.
>
> Topics in this digest:
>
>       1. Re: Messages not routing...
>            From: pablo salazar <niggapme@...>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 1
>    Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 00:45:37 -0700 (PDT)
>    From: pablo salazar <niggapme@...>
> Subject: Re: Messages not routing...
>
>
> hey, i got it, man....lil' late but what does it
> matter...
>
> Christopher Wyatt <existlist1@...> wrote:
> The Exist List has not been routing to all members,
> including myself
> of all people.
>
> If anyone on the list does receive this, please let
> me know. The
> change from oneList to eGroups should not have
> caused any problems,
> but one never knows.
>
> - C. S. Wyatt
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
> ---------------------------------
> From The Exist List...
> http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist
> man...
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo!
> Messenger.
>
> [This message contained attachments]
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/

>Operating priciples are the purpose, the only meaning that can be.
>The cow probably doesn't know it needs an enzyme, as it being an
>enzyme, but it knows it needs to eat and somehow it is digested.  I
>can voluntarily breathe, or i can go to my boring job and lose sight
>that i am breathing.  what i'd like is to know i only have to
>breathe.  And there is nothing to stress about that i am a man.  it
>is all as it can happen? and does.  i think so.

I don't beleive cows know they need to eat or that they have know the
concept of digestion.

There is nothing to stress about that you are a man, yet there
certainly can be if being a man means certainly obligations and
responsibilities.


Signature......
"In the best relationships sex is the booby prize."

"I'm gotten so out of shape sittin' at the computer all day that I
get out of breath when I have to reach for the percent key!"

- Zeitman

We need to bring this group back to life!!!

Any ideas?

I'd like to start a debate as to whether religion is actually a necessity at
this point in human evolution...opinions?
                            -Jason
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

In a message dated 07/17/2000 7:03:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
cyberg0th@... writes:

> I'd like to start a debate as to whether religion is actually a necessity
at
>  this point in human evolution...opinions?
>                             -Jason

We seem to be letting it go. don't we?  Church attendance  is getting smaller
and smaller.  Children are not being taught the the rudimentary ideas of God
and Jesus and faith.  Human evolution.....hmmmmm....I would say it is not a
necessity.

I have questions.  What has replaced God in our lives? Why  is religion no
longer a necessity?  What is going to happen to those of us to whom it is not
a necessity any more?  Do we stop evolving? Do we evolve higher by taking
responsibility for our own growth, ideas, feelings, what we give back to
society without the restrictions of the church and the idea of right and
wrong?   Is it us now, and not God?  Is God each one of us...and I don't mean
IN each one of us, I mean is each one of us God?  Good topic Jason.

Just an opinion.

Beth

Dear Ray:

Please clarify what you mean by the necessity of religion.  Do you mean the
belief in a god, or in organized religion? Some would argue that our belief
in science has become a religion.  My opinion is that there is a need for
religion, but on a more personal and individual level.  On a lighter note,
my relationship with my God is a dysfunctional one, based on love and
respect...we just argue all the time.

--Peter Sierant
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ray Zur" <cyberg0th@...>
To: <existlist@egroups.com>
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 6:02 PM
Subject: [existlist] Existentialism and the necessity of God...


> I'd like to start a debate as to whether religion is actually a necessity
at
> this point in human evolution...opinions?
>                            -Jason
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Never lose a file again. Protect yourself from accidental deletes,
> overwrites, and viruses with @Backup.
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> Click here to receive 300 MyPoints just for trying @Backup.
> http://click.egroups.com/1/6349/10/_/433398/_/963874921/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> >From The Exist List...
> http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist
>
>

Another thought about religion...
If not religion, then what basis is there for ethics and morality of any
kind?  Who would teach this morality?  What would it be based on?  Many
believe now in total hedonism, in satisfying the individual needs without
conscience.  This will only lead to chaos and extreme selfishness in my
opinion, where everyone is right and everyone would be wrong at the same
time.  So there is a foundation for religion to help teach the less
cereberal or unstructured or uneducated about the value of good and evil,
right and wrong.

----- Original Message -----
From: <Beth302002@...>
To: <existlist@egroups.com>
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 6:31 PM
Subject: Re: [existlist] Existentialism and the necessity of God...


> In a message dated 07/17/2000 7:03:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> cyberg0th@... writes:
>
> > I'd like to start a debate as to whether religion is actually a
necessity
> at
> >  this point in human evolution...opinions?
> >                             -Jason
>
> We seem to be letting it go. don't we?  Church attendance  is getting
smaller
> and smaller.  Children are not being taught the the rudimentary ideas of
God
> and Jesus and faith.  Human evolution.....hmmmmm....I would say it is not
a
> necessity.
>
> I have questions.  What has replaced God in our lives? Why  is religion no
> longer a necessity?  What is going to happen to those of us to whom it is
not
> a necessity any more?  Do we stop evolving? Do we evolve higher by taking
> responsibility for our own growth, ideas, feelings, what we give back to
> society without the restrictions of the church and the idea of right and
> wrong?   Is it us now, and not God?  Is God each one of us...and I don't
mean
> IN each one of us, I mean is each one of us God?  Good topic Jason.
>
> Just an opinion.
>
> Beth
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds!
> 1. Fill in the brief application
> 2. Receive approval decision within 30 seconds
> 3. Get rates as low as 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR
> http://click.egroups.com/1/6630/10/_/433398/_/963876670/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> >From The Exist List...
> http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist
>

In a message dated 07/17/2000 7:40:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
sierant@... writes:

>  So there is a foundation for religion to help teach the less
>  cereberal or unstructured or uneducated about the value of good and evil,
>  right and wrong.
>
   I agree, but is religion doing that now?  It's a case of preaching to the
choir. Those that go to church don't need the teaching because it is already
part of their lives.   The people who need the teaching...the children who
need something rock solid in their fragmented lives, are not being reached.
Jesus or Bugs Bunny...If you were 6,7,8 which would you pick?

You have to know about something in order to take advantage of it, and too
few churches are reaching out to the community.  I know of two where I live,
and I am proud of them, but I live in a big city...only two?  It also
snowballs...if your parents did not go to church, or at least did not send
you to Sunday school, how can you teach your children anything?

My basis for opinions here is that I am a preacher's daughter, and I was for
several years,  from age 16 to 26, a church organist.  The people are not
reaching out to the church for teaching about God, and the church is not
reaching the people.  The last church that I played in, sent out 8,000
pamphlets, followed up by phone calls and visits, inviting people in the
surrounding neighborhoods to come to church. Only 2 out of 8,000 responded.
My vote is still that organized religion is perceived to be not needed
anymore, morals are breaking down, christian education is not getting where
it needs to get.

I have been on this tirade for months now, I guess since the times of the
first school shootings.  Intellectually or not, existentially or not,
religiously or not, we are not caring for our childrens souls.  And it is
going to bite us some day soon, worse than it already has.

And I want to say that I am very aware of the parents that care, and try, and
teach, and love.  I just wish there were more of you.  Thanks for my turn on
the soapbox...shutting up now to listen to others. :o)

Beth

If human beings are incapable of discerning between right and wrong without
the instruction of a religious deity, what does that say about the state of
affairs in today's society?  I think teaching morality does not mean
teaching religion.  Human beings, as an intelligent species, are capable of
distinguishing right from wrong.  Those that do wrong almost always choose
to do wrong.  However, what is wrong?  I could say that sleeping with
someone merely to pleasure myself and the other person is fine because no
one gets hurt and both people enjoy it, but it is wrong according to most
religions.  So, morality, not ethics, are not influenced by natural human
behavior, but rather the prevalent religion in the area.  Therefore, good
and bad are merely a reflection of the religious beliefs of the person
discerning between the two.  So, if someone is capable of discerning between
right and wrong on their own, and they lead an essentialy good life, is God
(assuming there is a God, I'm agnostic) necessary in the daily life of this
person?  I would think not as religion teaches values and morality and if
someone already posesses these then religion is not necessary, making God
not necessary...comments and complaints accepted!
                             -Jason
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

You should live your life the way that you want others
to live.  If your opinions are right, people should be
drawn to them on their merits, and not because they
"should" or "ought" to do or think something.  To me
morality and ethics are a way for society to say you
"should" do this, but you "shouldn't" do that.

The ideas of morality and ethics need to be
demystified.  A group of individuals came up with our
current morality, therefore it has no more meaning
than an opinion.

One point you mentioned was that religion may be
needed to teach good and evil, or right and wrong, to
the uneducated.  In other words, the ignorant masses
should be subjected to a group of individuals ideas on
right and wrong?  If left to their own devices, the
uneducated would most likely develop a sense of right
and wrong.  Remove the brainwashing of man by society,
government, and religion, and you will have a new
species of man able to decide what is "right" for
himself, and what is "wrong."

You may laugh at the notion of brainwashing, but as a
child I never questioned the ideas of patriotism,
marriage, government, capitalism, war, prisons, etc...
  Once I realized that the sources of my information
were biased, I developed my open opinions.  I see a
society without gods, religions, and governments as a
society with man thinking for himself.

I'm done rambling,
Jared



-----Original Message-----
From: The Sierants <sierant@...>
To: existlist@egroups.com <existlist@egroups.com>
Date: Monday, July 17, 2000 6:41 PM
Subject: Re: [existlist] Existentialism and the
necessity of God...


Another thought about religion...
If not religion, then what basis is there for ethics
and morality of any
kind?  Who would teach this morality?  What would it
be based on?  Many
believe now in total hedonism, in satisfying the
individual needs without
conscience.  This will only lead to chaos and extreme
selfishness in my
opinion, where everyone is right and everyone would be
wrong at the same
time.  So there is a foundation for religion to help
teach the less
cereberal or unstructured or uneducated about the
value of good and evil,
right and wrong.

>From: "Ray Zur" <cyberg0th@...>
>Reply-To: existlist@egroups.com
>To: existlist@egroups.com
>Subject: [existlist] the necessity of religion...
>Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 00:31:17 EDT
>
>Human beings, as an intelligent species,
Who said we were intelligent species?
have you asked the monkey?!!!
we have created goodness and evil for our own
advantage, we have justified every little thing
just to survive from our fear.

And then we made jesues
committ suiecid (sp?) and continue screw everything
around us, because hey, he died for our sins!!!! hummm

And then came, Marx, boy what a giunes, he said,
workers wake up, don't wait for your jesus, he will
not help you, one for all, and all for one, and
every1 listend, and after a while not only one but
ALL were starving!

(meanwhile Frued was busy with his own experiments :))))
(I think he's the only one who realy enjoyed life!)

And then some guy came around and said, I am sitting on the
chair but I am not sure if the chair exist and then existentialist
was born!  waaaaa!!!!  and for a while some lived on only
cigarett and turkish coffee, and soon they died too!!!

And here I'm sitting around and thinking....the gravity is
at work.

love, peace and harmony,
yana

are capable of
>distinguishing right from wrong.  Those that do wrong almost always choose
>to do wrong.  However, what is wrong?  I could say that sleeping with
>someone merely to pleasure myself and the other person is fine because no
>one gets hurt and both people enjoy it, but it is wrong according to most
>religions.  So, morality, not ethics, are not influenced by natural human
>behavior, but rather the prevalent religion in the area.  Therefore, good
>and bad are merely a reflection of the religious beliefs of the person
>discerning between the two.  So, if someone is capable of discerning
>between
>right and wrong on their own, and they lead an essentialy good life, is God
>(assuming there is a God, I'm agnostic) necessary in the daily life of this
>person?  I would think not as religion teaches values and morality and if
>someone already posesses these then religion is not necessary, making God
>not necessary...comments and complaints accepted!
>                             -Jason
>________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

>From: Jared Frailey <lostmaia@...>
>Reply-To: existlist@egroups.com
>To: existlist@egroups.com
>Subject: Re: [existlist] Existentialism and the necessity of God...
>Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 23:29:36 -0700 (PDT)
>
>You should live your life the way that you want others
>to live.
Question: What do you mean by the above statement?
This is a world of acheivments, (dogy dog world), if
one wants to live his/her life the way she/he wanted to
live, they would be loosers!!!!




If your opinions are right, people should be
>drawn to them on their merits, and not because they
>"should" or "ought" to do or think something.
I don't think you live anywhere near Silicon Valley
, SF or NY?

>
>One point you mentioned was that religion may be
>needed to teach good and evil, or right and wrong, to
>the uneducated.  In other words, the ignorant masses
>should be subjected to a group of individuals ideas on
>right and wrong?  If left to their own devices, the
>uneducated would most likely develop a sense of right
>and wrong.  Remove the brainwashing of man by society,
>government, and religion, and you will have a new
>species of man able to decide what is "right" for
>himself, and what is "wrong."
That sounds better.




>
>You may laugh at the notion of brainwashing, but as a
>child I never questioned the ideas of patriotism,
>marriage, government, capitalism, war, prisons, etc...
>  Once I realized that the sources of my information
>were biased, I developed my open opinions.  I see a
>society without gods, religions, and governments as a
>society with man thinking for himself.
>
>I'm done rambling,
>Jared
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: The Sierants <sierant@...>
>To: existlist@egroups.com <existlist@egroups.com>
>Date: Monday, July 17, 2000 6:41 PM
>Subject: Re: [existlist] Existentialism and the
>necessity of God...
>
>
>Another thought about religion...
>If not religion, then what basis is there for ethics
>and morality of any
>kind?  Who would teach this morality?  What would it
>be based on?  Many
>believe now in total hedonism, in satisfying the
>individual needs without
>conscience.  This will only lead to chaos and extreme
>selfishness in my
>opinion, where everyone is right and everyone would be
>wrong at the same
>time.  So there is a foundation for religion to help
>teach the less
>cereberal or unstructured or uneducated about the
>value of good and evil,
>right and wrong.
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

I'm not sure I could handle others thinking I am a
"looser."  :-)  That is part of the problem: people
should not worry about what other people are doing, or
what other people will think.  Success and failure,
like good and evil, are terms for the individual to
define.  What I consider good may not be your idea of
good, and what I consider to be an achievment may not
be your idea of an achievment.

I can't help it, I have to quote Thoreau: "Why should
we be in such desperate haste to succeed, and in such
desperate enterprises? If a man does not keep pace
with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a
different drummer. Let him step to the music which he
hears, however measured or far away."

>I don't think you live anywhere near Silicon Valley
>, SF or NY?
Actually, I live in the Bible Belt: Oklahoma to be
exact.

Regard,
Jared







----Original Message-----
From: Yana Youhana <yana_youhana@...>
To: existlist@egroups.com <existlist@egroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 18, 2000 2:20 AM
Subject: Re: [existlist] Existentialism and the
necessity of God...


>From: Jared Frailey <lostmaia@...>
>Reply-To: existlist@egroups.com
>To: existlist@egroups.com
>Subject: Re: [existlist] Existentialism and the
necessity of God...
>Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 23:29:36 -0700 (PDT)
>
>You should live your life the way that you want
others
>to live.
Question: What do you mean by the above statement?
This is a world of acheivments, (dogy dog world), if
one wants to live his/her life the way she/he wanted
to
live, they would be loosers!!!!
If your opinions are right, people should be
>drawn to them on their merits, and not because they
>"should" or "ought" to do or think something.
I don't think you live anywhere near Silicon Valley
, SF or NY?

>
>One point you mentioned was that religion may be
>needed to teach good and evil, or right and wrong, to
>the uneducated.  In other words, the ignorant masses
>should be subjected to a group of individuals ideas
on
>right and wrong?  If left to their own devices, the
>uneducated would most likely develop a sense of right
>and wrong.  Remove the brainwashing of man by
society,
>government, and religion, and you will have a new
>species of man able to decide what is "right" for
>himself, and what is "wrong."
That sounds better.




>
>You may laugh at the notion of brainwashing, but as a
>child I never questioned the ideas of patriotism,
>marriage, government, capitalism, war, prisons,
etc...
>  Once I realized that the sources of my information
>were biased, I developed my open opinions.  I see a
>society without gods, religions, and governments as a
>society with man thinking for himself.
>
>I'm done rambling,
>Jared
>



=====
Best wishes,
Frailey


----------------------
Revering the universe, caring for nature, celebrating life -
The World Pantheist Movement: http://www.pantheism.net/index.htm

Someone wrote...

>If not religion, then what basis is there for ethics and morality of any
>kind?

Survival. I don't kill because I don't want to be killed. I don't
steal because I don't want to be stolen from. Part of my need to
survive is to create and maintain an environment that allows me to.
Therefore, to protect my own interest, I choose to behave in a manner
that gives me 'safety'.

>Who would teach this morality?

Who taught it to me before...surely not church, I don't recall ever
beleiving in a god.

For those who say 'morals a breaking down' I say 'no
kidding....people are compromsing their values to survive in an
increasingly crowded world.  It's hard to morally compete against
those who choose to not be...akin to asking a police officer to not
speed to catch a speeding car.

>What would it be based on?  Many
>believe now in total hedonism, in satisfying the individual needs without
>conscience.  This will only lead to chaos and extreme selfishness in my
>opinion, where everyone is right and everyone would be wrong at the same
>time.  So there is a foundation for religion to help teach the less
>cereberal or unstructured or uneducated about the value of good and evil,
>right and wrong.

Athiests aren't inherently hedonistic so I can't address these points.

I thought this was an ExistentiaList. If so, I have an alternate
question for discussion...

- How do Athiests create meaning in an otherwise meaningless world?
Do they need to? How do they resolve (or not) the conflict between
living a meaningful life when one is mortal?
--

Signature......
"In the best relationships sex is the booby prize."

"I'm gotten so out of shape sittin' at the computer all day that I
get out of breath when I have to reach for the percent key!"

- Zeitman

Jared Frailey <lostmaia@...> writes:

> You should live your life the way that you want others
> to live.  If your opinions are right, people should be
> drawn to them on their merits, and not because they
> "should" or "ought" to do or think something.  To me
> morality and ethics are a way for society to say you
> "should" do this, but you "shouldn't" do that.

But isn't that really the POINT of morality and ethics?  We speak often of a
moral
or ethical "duty", but what is that except an idea of what we feel we "should"
or
"must" do.  By living your life "the way that you want others to live", you are
saying that were anyone in your exact situation, you would want them to (i.e.
you believe they "should") do exactly what you decide to do.

> The ideas of morality and ethics need to be
> demystified.  A group of individuals came up with our
> current morality, therefore it has no more meaning
> than an opinion.

One cannot forget the history behind our moral and ethical "system", however. 
(Do
we really even have a system?  Laws, religion, I guess.  Anything else?)  These
"opinions" may be flawed, but they are not completely devoid of merit.  One
could
say "you've come a long way, baby" since the days of slavery.  I would also arge
that we have a long way to go.  (Down with capital punishment!)  I'm not saying,
we give in and "go with the flow".  I mean, just look at what the "Mitmachen"
did
to Germany in the 30s & 40s.  I AM saying that we need to give morality a little
more credit than "an opinion".

> If left to their own devices, the
> uneducated would most likely develop a sense of right
> and wrong.

But who's to say it's the "right" sense of right and wrong?  It would just be
another group of people, coming up with a morality for you to question.

> Remove the brainwashing of man by society,
> government, and religion, and you will have a new
> species of man able to decide what is "right" for
> himself, and what is "wrong."

Even the Aborigines have a sort of society, government, and religion.  And my
big
question is: does society, religion, etc. determine morality, or does morality
determine society, religion, etc.  This has always made for interesting
discussion.  Kind of a "Did Adam have a navel?" or "Which cam first, the chicken
or the egg?" question.

> You may laugh at the notion of brainwashing, but as a
> child I never questioned the ideas of patriotism,
> marriage, government, capitalism, war, prisons, etc...
>  Once I realized that the sources of my information
> were biased, I developed my open opinions.  I see a
> society without gods, religions, and governments as a
> society with man thinking for himself.

Go anarchy! *gg*

Anyways, that was my first post to the list, so nice to meet you all.  Can't
wait
for more good discussions!

Bis dann,

Amber

* * * * * * * * * * * * *
"I am no bird; and no net ensnares me; I am a free human being with an
independent will, which I now exert to leave you." -Jane Eyre
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
Amber Griffioen
griffioe@...
amber_griffs@...
http://www.geocities.com/amber_griffs

Remove
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> From The Exist List...
> http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist
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>
> There are 12 messages in this issue.
>
> Topics in this digest:
>
>       1. Hello everyone...
>            From: "Christopher Wyatt"
> <existlist1@...>
>       2. Hello Everyone
>            From: "Charles Vermont"
> <Funchoice@...>
>       3. Existentialism and the necessity of God...
>            From: "Ray Zur" <cyberg0th@...>
>       4. Re: Existentialism and the necessity of
> God...
>            From: Beth302002@...
>       5. Re: Existentialism and the necessity of
> God...
>            From: "The Sierants"
> <sierant@...>
>       6. Re: Existentialism and the necessity of
> God...
>            From: "The Sierants"
> <sierant@...>
>       7. Re: Existentialism and the necessity of
> God...
>            From: Beth302002@...
>       8. the necessity of religion...
>            From: "Ray Zur" <cyberg0th@...>
>       9. Re: Existentialism and the necessity of
> God...
>            From: Jared Frailey <lostmaia@...>
>      10. Re: the necessity of religion...
>            From: "Yana Youhana"
> <yana_youhana@...>
>      11. Re: Existentialism and the necessity of
> God...
>            From: "Yana Youhana"
> <yana_youhana@...>
>      12. Re: Existentialism and the necessity of
> God...
>            From: Jared Frailey <lostmaia@...>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 1
>    Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 21:17:59 -0000
>    From: "Christopher Wyatt" <existlist1@...>
> Subject: Hello everyone...
>
> We need to bring this group back to life!!!
>
> Any ideas?
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 2
>    Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 22:35:57 +0100
>    From: "Charles Vermont"
> <Funchoice@...>
> Subject: Hello Everyone
>
> Christopher, I don't know about you but I wonder
> whether most people have migrated to the
> Sartre@egroups list where we seem to be going great
> guns at the moment
>
> Charles Vermont
> london.uk
>
>
> [This message contained attachments]
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 3
>    Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 19:02:00 EDT
>    From: "Ray Zur" <cyberg0th@...>
> Subject: Existentialism and the necessity of God...
>
> I'd like to start a debate as to whether religion is
> actually a necessity at
> this point in human evolution...opinions?
>                            -Jason
>
________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
> http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 4
>    Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 19:31:05 EDT
>    From: Beth302002@...
> Subject: Re: Existentialism and the necessity of
> God...
>
> In a message dated 07/17/2000 7:03:39 PM Eastern
> Daylight Time,
> cyberg0th@... writes:
>
> > I'd like to start a debate as to whether religion
> is actually a necessity
> at
> >  this point in human evolution...opinions?
> >                             -Jason
>
> We seem to be letting it go. don't we?  Church
> attendance  is getting smaller
> and smaller.  Children are not being taught the the
> rudimentary ideas of God
> and Jesus and faith.  Human
> evolution.....hmmmmm....I would say it is not a
> necessity.
>
> I have questions.  What has replaced God in our
> lives? Why  is religion no
> longer a necessity?  What is going to happen to
> those of us to whom it is not
> a necessity any more?  Do we stop evolving? Do we
> evolve higher by taking
> responsibility for our own growth, ideas, feelings,
> what we give back to
> society without the restrictions of the church and
> the idea of right and
> wrong?   Is it us now, and not God?  Is God each one
> of us...and I don't mean
> IN each one of us, I mean is each one of us God?
> Good topic Jason.
>
> Just an opinion.
>
> Beth
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 5
>    Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 18:41:25 -0500
>    From: "The Sierants" <sierant@...>
> Subject: Re: Existentialism and the necessity of
> God...
>
> Dear Ray:
>
> Please clarify what you mean by the necessity of
> religion.  Do you mean the
> belief in a god, or in organized religion? Some
> would argue that our belief
> in science has become a religion.  My opinion is
> that there is a need for
> religion, but on a more personal and individual
> level.  On a lighter note,
> my relationship with my God is a dysfunctional one,
> based on love and
> respect...we just argue all the time.
>
> --Peter Sierant
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ray Zur" <cyberg0th@...>
> To: <existlist@egroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 6:02 PM
> Subject: [existlist] Existentialism and the
> necessity of God...
>
>
> > I'd like to start a debate as to whether religion
> is actually a necessity
> at
> > this point in human evolution...opinions?
> >                            -Jason
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
> http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> >
> >
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>
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> >
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> > >From The Exist List...
> > http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
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>
________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 6
>    Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 18:45:36 -0500
>    From: "The Sierants" <sierant@...>
> Subject: Re: Existentialism and the necessity of
> God...
>
> Another thought about religion...
> If not religion, then what basis is there for ethics
> and morality of any
> kind?  Who would teach this morality?  What would it
> be based on?  Many
> believe now in total hedonism, in satisfying the
> individual needs without
> conscience.  This will only lead to chaos and
> extreme selfishness in my
> opinion, where everyone is right and everyone would
> be wrong at the same
> time.  So there is a foundation for religion to help
> teach the less
> cereberal or unstructured or uneducated about the
> value of good and evil,
> right and wrong.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <Beth302002@...>
> To: <existlist@egroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 6:31 PM
> Subject: Re: [existlist] Existentialism and the
> necessity of God...
>
>
> > In a message dated 07/17/2000 7:03:39 PM Eastern
> Daylight Time,
> > cyberg0th@... writes:
> >
> > > I'd like to start a debate as to whether
> religion is actually a
> necessity
> > at
> > >  this point in human evolution...opinions?
> > >                             -Jason
> >
> > We seem to be letting it go. don't we?  Church
> attendance  is getting
> smaller
> > and smaller.  Children are not being taught the
> the rudimentary ideas of
> God
> > and Jesus and faith.  Human
> evolution.....hmmmmm....I would say it is not
> a
> > necessity.
> >
> > I have questions.  What has replaced God in our
> lives? Why  is religion no
> > longer a necessity?  What is going to happen to
> those of us to whom it is
> not
> > a necessity any more?  Do we stop evolving? Do we
> evolve higher by taking
> > responsibility for our own growth, ideas,
> feelings, what we give back to
> > society without the restrictions of the church and
> the idea of right and
> > wrong?   Is it us now, and not God?  Is God each
> one of us...and I don't
> mean
> > IN each one of us, I mean is each one of us God?
> Good topic Jason.
> >
> > Just an opinion.
> >
> > Beth
> >
> >
>
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> >
>
>
>
>
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>
________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 7
>    Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 20:53:25 EDT
>    From: Beth302002@...
> Subject: Re: Existentialism and the necessity of
> God...
>
> In a message dated 07/17/2000 7:40:05 PM Eastern
> Daylight Time,
> sierant@... writes:
>
> >  So there is a foundation for religion to help
> teach the less
> >  cereberal or unstructured or uneducated about the
> value of good and evil,
> >  right and wrong.
> >
>   I agree, but is religion doing that now?  It's a
> case of preaching to the
> choir. Those that go to church don't need the
> teaching because it is already
> part of their lives.   The people who need the
> teaching...the children who
> need something rock solid in their fragmented lives,
> are not being reached.
> Jesus or Bugs Bunny...If you were 6,7,8 which would
> you pick?
>
> You have to know about something in order to take
> advantage of it, and too
> few churches are reaching out to the community.  I
> know of two where I live,
> and I am proud of them, but I live in a big
> city...only two?  It also
> snowballs...if your parents did not go to church, or
> at least did not send
> you to Sunday school, how can you teach your
> children anything?
>
> My basis for opinions here is that I am a preacher's
> daughter, and I was for
> several years,  from age 16 to 26, a church
> organist.  The people are not
> reaching out to the church for teaching about God,
> and the church is not
> reaching the people.  The last church that I played
> in, sent out 8,000
> pamphlets, followed up by phone calls and visits,
> inviting people in the
> surrounding neighborhoods to come to church. Only 2
> out of 8,000 responded.
> My vote is still that organized religion is
> perceived to be not needed
> anymore, morals are breaking down, christian
> education is not getting where
> it needs to get.
>
> I have been on this tirade for months now, I guess
> since the times of the
> first school shootings.  Intellectually or not,
> existentially or not,
> religiously or not, we are not caring for our
> childrens souls.  And it is
> going to bite us some day soon, worse than it
> already has.
>
> And I want to say that I am very aware of the
> parents that care, and try, and
> teach, and love.  I just wish there were more of
> you.  Thanks for my turn on
> the soapbox...shutting up now to listen to others.
> :o)
>
> Beth
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 8
>    Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 00:31:17 EDT
>    From: "Ray Zur" <cyberg0th@...>
> Subject: the necessity of religion...
>
> If human beings are incapable of discerning between
> right and wrong without
> the instruction of a religious deity, what does that
> say about the state of
> affairs in today's society?  I think teaching
> morality does not mean
> teaching religion.  Human beings, as an intelligent
> species, are capable of
> distinguishing right from wrong.  Those that do
> wrong almost always choose
> to do wrong.  However, what is wrong?  I could say
> that sleeping with
> someone merely to pleasure myself and the other
> person is fine because no
> one gets hurt and both people enjoy it, but it is
> wrong according to most
> religions.  So, morality, not ethics, are not
> influenced by natural human
> behavior, but rather the prevalent religion in the
> area.  Therefore, good
> and bad are merely a reflection of the religious
> beliefs of the person
> discerning between the two.  So, if someone is
> capable of discerning between
> right and wrong on their own, and they lead an
> essentialy good life, is God
> (assuming there is a God, I'm agnostic) necessary in
> the daily life of this
> person?  I would think not as religion teaches
> values and morality and if
> someone already posesses these then religion is not
> necessary, making God
> not necessary...comments and complaints accepted!
>                             -Jason
>
________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
> http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 9
>    Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 23:29:36 -0700 (PDT)
>    From: Jared Frailey <lostmaia@...>
> Subject: Re: Existentialism and the necessity of
> God...
>
> You should live your life the way that you want
> others
> to live.  If your opinions are right, people should
> be
> drawn to them on their merits, and not because they
> "should" or "ought" to do or think something.  To me
> morality and ethics are a way for society to say you
> "should" do this, but you "shouldn't" do that.
>
> The ideas of morality and ethics need to be
> demystified.  A group of individuals came up with
> our
> current morality, therefore it has no more meaning
> than an opinion.
>
> One point you mentioned was that religion may be
> needed to teach good and evil, or right and wrong,
> to
> the uneducated.  In other words, the ignorant masses
> should be subjected to a group of individuals ideas
> on
> right and wrong?  If left to their own devices, the
> uneducated would most likely develop a sense of
> right
> and wrong.  Remove the brainwashing of man by
> society,
> government, and religion, and you will have a new
> species of man able to decide what is "right" for
> himself, and what is "wrong."
>
> You may laugh at the notion of brainwashing, but as
> a
> child I never questioned the ideas of patriotism,
> marriage, government, capitalism, war, prisons,
> etc...
>  Once I realized that the sources of my information
> were biased, I developed my open opinions.  I see a
> society without gods, religions, and governments as
> a
> society with man thinking for himself.
>
> I'm done rambling,
> Jared
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: The Sierants <sierant@...>
> To: existlist@egroups.com <existlist@egroups.com>
> Date: Monday, July 17, 2000 6:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [existlist] Existentialism and the
> necessity of God...
>
>
> Another thought about religion...
> If not religion, then what basis is there for ethics
> and morality of any
> kind?  Who would teach this morality?  What would it
> be based on?  Many
> believe now in total hedonism, in satisfying the
> individual needs without
> conscience.  This will only lead to chaos and
> extreme
> selfishness in my
> opinion, where everyone is right and everyone would
> be
> wrong at the same
> time.  So there is a foundation for religion to help
> teach the less
> cereberal or unstructured or uneducated about the
> value of good and evil,
> right and wrong.
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 10
>    Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 07:09:21 GMT
>    From: "Yana Youhana" <yana_youhana@...>
> Subject: Re: the necessity of religion...
>
>
>
>
> >From: "Ray Zur" <cyberg0th@...>
> >Reply-To: existlist@egroups.com
> >To: existlist@egroups.com
> >Subject: [existlist] the necessity of religion...
> >Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 00:31:17 EDT
> >
> >Human beings, as an intelligent species,
> Who said we were intelligent species?
> have you asked the monkey?!!!
> we have created goodness and evil for our own
> advantage, we have justified every little thing
> just to survive from our fear.
>
> And then we made jesues
> committ suiecid (sp?) and continue screw everything
> around us, because hey, he died for our sins!!!!
> hummm
>
> And then came, Marx, boy what a giunes, he said,
> workers wake up, don't wait for your jesus, he will
> not help you, one for all, and all for one, and
> every1 listend, and after a while not only one but
> ALL were starving!
>
> (meanwhile Frued was busy with his own experiments
> :))))
> (I think he's the only one who realy enjoyed life!)
>
> And then some guy came around and said, I am sitting
> on the
> chair but I am not sure if the chair exist and then
> existentialist
> was born!  waaaaa!!!!  and for a while some lived on
> only
> cigarett and turkish coffee, and soon they died
> too!!!
>
> And here I'm sitting around and thinking....the
> gravity is
> at work.
>
> love, peace and harmony,
> yana
>
> are capable of
> >distinguishing right from wrong.  Those that do
> wrong almost always choose
> >to do wrong.  However, what is wrong?  I could say
> that sleeping with
> >someone merely to pleasure myself and the other
> person is fine because no
> >one gets hurt and both people enjoy it, but it is
> wrong according to most
> >religions.  So, morality, not ethics, are not
> influenced by natural human
> >behavior, but rather the prevalent religion in the
> area.  Therefore, good
> >and bad are merely a reflection of the religious
> beliefs of the person
> >discerning between the two.  So, if someone is
> capable of discerning
> >between
> >right and wrong on their own, and they lead an
> essentialy good life, is God
> >(assuming there is a God, I'm agnostic) necessary
> in the daily life of this
> >person?  I would think not as religion teaches
> values and morality and if
> >someone already posesses these then religion is not
> necessary, making God
> >not necessary...comments and complaints accepted!
> >                             -Jason
>
>________________________________________________________________________
> >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
> http://www.hotmail.com
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
> http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
>
>
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>
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>
> Message: 11
>    Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 07:18:55 GMT
>    From: "Yana Youhana" <yana_youhana@...>
> Subject: Re: Existentialism and the necessity of
> God...
>
>
>
>
> >From: Jared Frailey <lostmaia@...>
> >Reply-To: existlist@egroups.com
> >To: existlist@egroups.com
> >Subject: Re: [existlist] Existentialism and the
> necessity of God...
> >Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 23:29:36 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >You should live your life the way that you want
> others
> >to live.
> Question: What do you mean by the above statement?
> This is a world of acheivments, (dogy dog world), if
> one wants to live his/her life the way she/he wanted
> to
> live, they would be loosers!!!!
>
>
>
>
> If your opinions are right, people should be
> >drawn to them on their merits, and not because they
> >"should" or "ought" to do or think something.
> I don't think you live anywhere near Silicon Valley
> , SF or NY?
>
> >
> >One point you mentioned was that religion may be
> >needed to teach good and evil, or right and wrong,
> to
> >the uneducated.  In other words, the ignorant
> masses
> >should be subjected to a group of individuals ideas
> on
> >right and wrong?  If left to their own devices, the
> >uneducated would most likely develop a sense of
> right
> >and wrong.  Remove the brainwashing of man by
> society,
> >government, and religion, and you will have a new
> >species of man able to decide what is "right" for
> >himself, and what is "wrong."
> That sounds better.
>
>
>
>
> >
> >You may laugh at the notion of brainwashing, but as
> a
> >child I never questioned the ideas of patriotism,
> >marriage, government, capitalism, war, prisons,
> etc...
> >  Once I realized that the sources of my
> information
> >were biased, I developed my open opinions.  I see a
> >society without gods, religions, and governments as
> a
> >society with man thinking for himself.
> >
> >I'm done rambling,
> >Jared
> >
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: The Sierants <sierant@...>
> >To: existlist@egroups.com <existlist@egroups.com>
> >Date: Monday, July 17, 2000 6:41 PM
> >Subject: Re: [existlist] Existentialism and the
> >necessity of God...
> >
> >
> >Another thought about religion...
> >If not religion, then what basis is there for
> ethics
> >and morality of any
> >kind?  Who would teach this morality?  What would
> it
> >be based on?  Many
> >believe now in total hedonism, in satisfying the
> >individual needs without
> >conscience.  This will only lead to chaos and
> extreme
> >selfishness in my
> >opinion, where everyone is right and everyone would
> be
> >wrong at the same
> >time.  So there is a foundation for religion to
> help
> >teach the less
> >cereberal or unstructured or uneducated about the
> >value of good and evil,
> >right and wrong.
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
> http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 12
>    Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 00:52:48 -0700 (PDT)
>    From: Jared Frailey <lostmaia@...>
> Subject: Re: Existentialism and the necessity of
> God...
>
> I'm not sure I could handle others thinking I am a
> "looser."  :-)  That is part of the problem: people
> should not worry about what other people are doing,
> or
> what other people will think.  Success and failure,
> like good and evil, are terms for the individual to
> define.  What I consider good may not be your idea
> of
> good, and what I consider to be an achievment may
> not
> be your idea of an achievment.
>
> I can't help it, I have to quote Thoreau: "Why
> should
> we be in such desperate haste to succeed, and in
> such
> desperate enterprises? If a man does not keep pace
> with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears
> a
> different drummer. Let him step to the music which
> he
> hears, however measured or far away."
>
> >I don't think you live anywhere near Silicon Valley
> >, SF or NY?
> Actually, I live in the Bible Belt: Oklahoma to be
> exact.
>
> Regard,
> Jared
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----Original Message-----
> From: Yana Youhana <yana_youhana@...>
> To: existlist@egroups.com <existlist@egroups.com>
> Date: Tuesday, July 18, 2000 2:20 AM
> Subject: Re: [existlist] Existentialism and the
> necessity of God...
>
>
> >From: Jared Frailey <lostmaia@...>
> >Reply-To: existlist@egroups.com
> >To: existlist@egroups.com
> >Subject: Re: [existlist] Existentialism and the
> necessity of God...
> >Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 23:29:36 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >You should live your life the way that you want
> others
> >to live.
> Question: What do you mean by the above statement?
> This is a world of acheivments, (dogy dog world), if
> one wants to live his/her life the way she/he wanted
> to
> live, they would be loosers!!!!
> If your opinions are right, people should be
> >drawn to them on their merits, and not because they
> >"should" or "ought" to do or think something.
> I don't think you live anywhere near Silicon Valley
> , SF or NY?
>
> >
> >One point you mentioned was that religion may be
> >needed to teach good and evil, or right and wrong,
> to
> >the uneducated.  In other words, the ignorant
> masses
> >should be subjected to a group of individuals ideas
> on
> >right and wrong?  If left to their own devices, the
> >uneducated would most likely develop a sense of
> right
> >and wrong.  Remove the brainwashing of man by
> society,
> >government, and religion, and you will have a new
> >species of man able to decide what is "right" for
> >himself, and what is "wrong."
> That sounds better.
>
>
>
>
> >
> >You may laugh at the notion of brainwashing, but as
> a
> >child I never questioned the ideas of patriotism,
> >marriage, government, capitalism, war, prisons,
> etc...
> >  Once I realized that the sources of my
> information
> >were biased, I developed my open opinions.  I see a
> >society without gods, religions, and governments as
> a
> >society with man thinking for himself.
> >
> >I'm done rambling,
> >Jared
> >
>
>
>
> =====
> Best wishes,
> Frailey
>
>
> ----------------------
> Revering the universe, caring for nature,
> celebrating life -
> The World Pantheist Movement:
> http://www.pantheism.net/index.htm
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>


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Doesn't morality almost entirely begin and end with other people?  What good
is a "personal morality".

What is often termed as "brainwashing" is inevitable, you can't remove it.
Even if you think that you have formed your own opinions, they were surely
not based on totally original thoughts?  We will still always, to an extent,
be cogs in a machine.

The uneducated are already developing a sense of what is right and wrong and
the fact that it has no moral basis derived from respect for a superior
being makes it all the more catastrophic.  Directionless futility.

Tom

>A group of individuals came up with our
>  > current morality, therefore it has no more meaning
>>  than an opinion.

Nothing has meaning in-of-itself...it's meaning is given through
agreement (Language). That's what Existentialism is...things don't
have meaning or significance (essensce) before they are defined
(existance).

Existance preceeds Essence.

>Doesn't morality almost entirely begin and end with other people?  What good
>is a "personal morality".

Survival.

>
>What is often termed as "brainwashing" is inevitable, you can't remove it.
>Even if you think that you have formed your own opinions, they were surely
>not based on totally original thoughts?  We will still always, to an extent,
>be cogs in a machine.

Well said. When's the last time an 'independent thinker' invented new
concepts (and words) to describe what hasn't been described before?

I think, as science, that human behavior has been 'fixed' and
well-defined for quite a long time...I'm just taking the components
that exist, making them my own (this is called 'understanding') and
going off thinking I'm really the first one to think these thoughts.

>
>The uneducated are already developing a sense of what is right and wrong and
>the fact that it has no moral basis derived from respect for a superior
>being makes it all the more catastrophic.  Directionless futility.

I agree with that too!...if there's no shame (fear) then the person
developes survival skills (morals) which are grounded in fearlessness!
--

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Enter your vote today!  Check out the new poll for the existlist
group:


Despite your current beliefs would you
find a bit more security in
knowing/believing that there was a God
or some higher being who has a divine
plan?

   o Yes
   o No
   o Unsure


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://www.egroups.com/polls/existlist

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not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the eGroups
web site listed above.

Thanks!

Hello all,
     I find it interesting that many people have pushed the issue of a
God and morality/ethics when posed the question on the necessity of
Religion.  Many people brought up the point of realitive morality and
our tendancy to look at things through our own perspective.  This is
shown quite well in the responses to the initial question.  Although
there are many religions most people focused on the issue of a
God...and it seem a Christian one at that.  Well here are my thoughts
on the question.
    I have always had the trouble of understanding exactly what a
religion is.  I suppose it is an organized belief that tries to
explain our existence..and so on.  I think that right now...religion
is a necessity for many people.  Whether it is Hinduism,
Christianity,
Judaism, and etc... many people find comfort in believing that there
is some higher order.
     Someone brought up the point of whether or not we are all a God.
Well...I think we don't want to admit such a burden on ourselves.
Instead we claim an opinion..and back it up with what ever is in our
intellectual arsenal.  So....if we all become a God...and we rely on
our own belief system...it would appear that religion is still a
necessity.  We claim our own system and worship it.
     I think that once we stop thinking about questions such as
morality or our own being...then we will no longer need religion.
Sorry if this is a bit jumbled...but if you have any response to this
I would be glad to clarify..and... gulp...dear GOD...admit I am
wrong:)  Bye for now.

This all depends on what you mean by "religion." If you are speaking
of religion as the agent of morality and idealism, then my opinion is
that religion is so woven into the fabric of our very beings that we
cannot even conceive of a world without it. Some would say that law
and society and government could be considered substitutes for
religion, but aren't they all in some way based on an underlying
system of belief? If you say that humanity "should not" be dependent
on an underlying morality, isn't that in itself an assertion of our
dependence?

On the other hand, if you view religion empirically as a group of
rituals practiced to honor an Unseen Something that is greater than
we are... Living in rural East TN, I have seen many strange things.
I've seen people speak in tongues and handle copperheads and drink
strychnine and do many other things that I probably shouldn't post
here. They all come away unharmed or mostly unharmed. Why? I don't
know. Would they live without doing these things? Yes. And probably
for a longer length of time. But they would be living in the least
meaningful sense of the word. I personally think that the practice of
such things stems from a kind of sick desperation, but these things
satisfy some desire that the worshippers have. That's the key. There
is a REASON that faith-oriented religious life exists whether because
of sickness of a sort or the influence of the Almighty. Religious
faith is necessary as long as there is a need for it.

In short, my answer is "Yes."

Tirade ended,
Susan

What part of rural east Tennessee?  I live in Maryville, right outside of
Knoxville.  Anyways, my point is that if certain people believe they are
strong enough to not depend on a God or God-type being (not just religion in
the Christian ideal) do they need religion?  Personally, I believe that I,
as an individual, am strong and independent enough to not have to depend on
the mercy and care of an omnipitent and all powerful being.  I take pride in
my accomplishments, and more pride in the fact that they are MY
accomplishments and I didn't depend on anyone or anything else to help.  Why
is this?  Why do certain people not need religion and others do?  Why do
some people need faith and others do not?  I am not trying to say that those
who go to church (or temple, or whatnot) are not strong enough individuals
to act on their own, I am wondering why they feel the need to believe in
something greater than themselves?  I am not saying faith is illogical,
though it is (however I am not a logical person), I am saying that faith is
good if you need it to function in everyday life.  Here's my personal quote,
it sums up the entirety of my feelings about religion and God:  "I may have
lost my faith in God, but I've never had more in myself."  Any comments,
criticism, or questions are more than welcome, constructive though...
                                -Jason
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> By living your life "the way that you
> want others to live", you are
> saying that were anyone in your exact situation, you
> would want them to (i.e.
> you believe they "should") do exactly what you
> decide to do.

I believe everyone has the prejudice that they are
right, and everyone else is wrong.  :-)  What I was
trying to say is that if your opinion is that
important to you, you shouldn't try to convert someone
to your ideas but set an example.  For example, I
consider myself to be a pacifist.  I don't believe in
the use of violence for any purpose, but I arrived at
this opinion on my own.  By practicing pacifism, I set
an example for humanity.  The difference between my
opinion and morality is that my opinions will not be
maintained by the use of coercive measures by society,
government, and religion.  After all, coercion is
violence.  :-)  And another difference between my
opinions and morality is that I don't view my opinions
as something "sacred."  I can always change my
opinions, but changing morality is almost impossible
(I'm exaggerating).  In other words, I am against
morality, but I am for personal ideals and opinions.

>I AM saying that we
> need to give morality a little
> more credit than "an opinion".

I will give you that point: Morals are opinions with a
history.  :-)

> But who's to say it's the "right" sense of right and
> wrong?  It would just be
> another group of people, coming up with a morality
> for you to question.

Is there a right one?  No.  And why would it be a
group effort?  I have my own personal values, and they
should have their own.  As long as the individual
isn't harming another person's freedom, the individual
should not be restrained by morality or laws.

> Even the Aborigines have a sort of society,
> government, and religion.  And my big
> question is: does society, religion, etc. determine
> morality, or does morality
> determine society, religion, etc.

My guess is that morality came first.  :-)


> Go anarchy! *gg*
>
> Anyways, that was my first post to the list, so nice
> to meet you all.  Can't wait
> for more good discussions!

Actually, I do consider myself to be an anarchist.  I
fit somewhere between an Individualist Anarchist and a
Communist Anarchist.  :-)

Best Regards,
Jared

> Doesn't morality almost entirely begin and end with
> other people?  What good
> is a "personal morality".
What good is a personal morality?  Whatever good the
individual can get out of it.  I tend to enjoy
producing my own morals (opinions, ideals, etc.)

> What is often termed as "brainwashing" is
> inevitable, you can't remove it.
> Even if you think that you have formed your own
> opinions, they were surely
> not based on totally original thoughts?  We will
> still always, to an extent,
> be cogs in a machine.

I concede that "brainwashing" is inevitable if you are
in contact with other individuals, society, religion,
or government.  My opinions are not based enitirely on
my own original thoughts, but the formation of my
opinions was an active venture: I sought and analyzed
the opinions of others.  Morality is an inactive
process: the individual absorbs the opinions of
others.

> The uneducated are already developing a sense of
> what is right and wrong and
> the fact that it has no moral basis derived from
> respect for a superior
> being makes it all the more catastrophic.
> Directionless futility.


Catastrophic in what way?  Is it because they are not
developing in a direction that you would have them go?


The uneducated people, that I know personally, derive
all of their values and morals from their church, the
members of their church, and other community members.
This to me does seem directionless.  My ideal would be
where every individual decided what would be "good"
and "evil" to them personally.  There seems more
personal direction in my ideal, but societal,
governmental, and religious direction would fade.

Best Regards,
Jared

> So....if we all become a
> God...and we rely on
> our own belief system...it would appear that
> religion is still a
> necessity.  We claim our own system and worship it.

This is a very interesting thought.  I would advocate
everyone to build their own system of opinions and
follow it, as long as they are able to abolish or
change their system on a whim.  You shouldn't allow
your ideas to possess you, you should remain in
control of your ideas.