--- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Bill,
> > >
> > > If you are referring to "Green Jihad" in Forbes by Joel Kotkin, I found it
to be preaching to the deregulation choir. I agree with Zizek and others who
think a genuine environmental agenda won't succeed without dismantling global
corporatism. As your example of the Cairo recyclers who are being squeezed out
at the expense of real sanitation shows, "The man's too big, the man's too
strong."
> > >
> > > Mary
> > > Mary, Yes that is the article and deregulation would make sense as a
financial pages position. I think we are lucky to have the two sides mentioned
working to dilute the effects of a tyrrany by either position. <
>
> So very many things are wrong with that article. Primary is what we call its
sensible position--deregulation is always the business friendly position. When
business places profit above the environment and worker rights, it isn't
sensible at all; it is `green' and `terrorist'--to further spin language like
the author. Green with its greed and naive attitude towards the environment, and
terrorist in its power to threaten and suddenly move jobs, thereby traumatizing
families and stressing social services. Pitting the profits of a few against the
survival of the many has no philosophical foundation. But that financial
magazine is meant to reinforce that particular business dogma and spread its
good news to new and small businesses-- many who are women and/or
minority--creating the recent phenomena of such who now spout conservative, tea
bagging, and bootstrapping rhetoric. This is as oxymoronic as `green jihad'.
This is postmodern.
> Now, I have never known what postmodernism is. Is Zizak a post modernist? I
have a system of time management, I drop  reading a subject if I find it errant
or obnoxious. Putting concepts in your brain takes time and energy so I do not
want to load garbage. It is much the same as I do not do acid, I retain respect
for my mind.
> > The Cairo garbage  matter leaves me with few positive thoughts. The
multinationals are paying bribes to do the sanitation and recycle only 20% while
the traditional garbage people claim 80% recycling. It is difficult to see
either side as having great positive results. The garbage people are so absymal
that I could not sanction that level of existance. The multi nationals just want
a bottom line and could care  less for the indegenous people. <
>
> I agree, because what makes actual sense is to hire Zabellen at living wages
and continue recycling. I recently learned about the thwarted attempt of the WTO
to implement MAI (the Multilateral Agreement on Investment). According to Zizek,
and reinforced by other sources, this plan would have enabled foreign investors
"to undermine national sovereignty by assigning to these corporations powers
almost equal to the countries in which they are located." Activists revealed
this, causing first France and then others, to refuse participation. But as we
now see, the old tried and true method of bribery is more successful than
international accords.
> I do not know who is competing with whom. We have the multinationalist agenda
and we have a nationalist agenda. It would seem Zizek is sporting a nationalist
cause. Is he an American? I associate the post modernist  agenda with the new
world order people. I do not trust the new world order as I have no chance to
elect them  or even find out who they are.The American Indians were treated as
they were because we had the power  and advancement  to force them into our
system. I`m not making a moral judgement about that, is what happned. I see a
similar situation  coming up with the Isalmic world. This is an odd man out
world and ancient systems lose because they cannot compete. As a whole the only
Islamic countries that compete are the ones with oil. Afganistan,Iraque, Syria,
Yeman, Egypt, Lybia  have come apart with different situations adherant to each
failure, Lybia and Iraque have oil and might survive  but the others may fall
into chaos. If they disentegrate into radical terrorist states they should
consider 9/11 their Little Big Horn. I would point it out to them as I do not
think Americans will allow boots on the ground to combat aggression against this
country. So if I do not support the New world order and consider myself  an
American my response could resemble the attitudes toward native americans when
we trampled them over. Poor Islamic peoples are prime for some of the same
erridication methods we used against the indians. Starvation, witholding of
medical care, innoculation of deadly disease are relatively passive. This is the
future  we and they face and denial is no help. It will happen differently in
each of the mentioned countries but oil will enter  greatly into each outcome.
You see this as an philosophical  problem where I see it as a geopolitical
situation that defies any philosophical remedy. These failing states are
here,now. Our failure to confront our energy problems are here, now. Cold
pragmatics will operate in this major world change and I do not plan to be
blindsided when  the facts come out.
> >  I know some think the Arab spring a great boon to the Arab peoples and the
west. I think that most simplistic as the entire Islamic world  has millenia of
change to absorb but little time left on the cateclism clock. Now Zizek may be
correct regarding  the demise of the multinationals being necessary for 
enviromental goals to be met but  how long can he hold his breath? The
antithetical positions must compromise  or one side must win. The 
environmentalists do not have the economic power to win and the multinationals
seem a more probable winner. By then we may have burned ourselves off the
planet. Who does the sanitation in Cairo is secondary to them breeding
themselves into oblivion. Thay are now under marshal law with no viable
government. The muslim brotherhood is the only viable party so it seems we are
gaining little ground there. As we leave Iraque and Afganistan the nation
building will dry up and those ancient peoples and systems slide back not forge
ahead. The only solution seems to be the sand will come up to swallow them 
thats if we do not nuke them first. Bill<
>
> So much of what you say eerily resembles the rationale for decimating
America's aboriginals once used to open borders and promote `free trade', just
like NAFTA today. A cataclysm looms because proponents of capitalism/militarism
are impatient for `victory'. And it isn't so much a matter of holding one's
breath, but of speaking the truth until one's last breath. To compromise that,
to adopt the enemy's rhetoric, to rationalize, delude and anesthetize ourselves
rather than suffer, disgraces us. It is better to admit we fail and suffer for
it, than to lie to ourselves. If I'm going to throw myself under a Juggernaut,
it will be that of recognizing my complicity in the system, suffering for it,
while remaining useful and even joyful--a most absurd tension--and not
compromise by justifying the horror.
> It is an absurd world and I accept that. I am an existentialist and Camus
explained that concept well. Why be guilty about decisions that were not yours
or even in your time frame. As to compromise that is an art form and  I will not
feel compromised by breathing. That sounds like concupisance and I gave up that
theory fifty years ago. Bill
> Mary
>

Here in the US we are producing more and more with less and less workers. The
"New Normal" positions a double didget  unemployment rate with production levels
at before recession numbers. This is sweat shop capitalism that workers must
unite to unmask and defeat. I have not heard much about product boycoots and
that would seem an effective measure against brands that abuse their workers. It
seems 10% of the people just do not buy into work at all. Now I understand that
jobs programs amount to an everlasting dole. Ten percent plan to free load and
the rest will work longer and harder, pay more taxes to support the lower
leasure class. I know some libraries are planning free computer access so the
chronically unemployed can play video games. We the workers pay for those
computers and buildings and power. The non working life  is being acessed  by
people who are talented  but just plain lazy.I consider them economic terrorists
as they rob the economy by economic leveling . The true workers are burned out
early and the system becomes self  effacing as the burn outs go on the dole.
This depleative cycle is most damaging to the system  and much more dangerous
that a few bombs lobbed by  terrorists.
  The New Normal will have some truly impossible facits. You can plan to work
until you are seventy. If you do physical labor only the super few  will survive
to retire. Disability law will be a boom area of employment. A cheap law degree
and local only advertising will make millionaries out of what were once
ambulance chasers.
  Lawn mower man is already adding a business class to his brillient
entrapenurial venture. The basic lawn  mower man has a pick up ,a trailer, a
push mower and a riding mower and a string trimmer. Now what was a teenage 
business has a central dispatch that routes, collects for, and scheduals lawn
mower man  adding such overhead so the "Man" just can`t make it. It is classic
over growth and will kill these sad little businesses. If you are going to sneak
into business from the bottom you better do your own books and answer your own
cell phone while it microwaves your brain. You wind up broke and a dolt just
like the Cairo garbage man.
  These things I see do not seem to sustain  a long term system. I just heard an
economist demand we drive smaller cars. She was followed by  a study showing
SUV`s to be much more survivable in accidents than compact cars. Now what is the
smartest guy in the room going to do with that knowledge packet? Bill

Bill,

You certainly don't need to take my word for it, but Zizek is not postmodern or
a pragmatist, finding these ineffectual, if not anathema to ethical communities.
In other words, they promulgate global capitalism and ethnic strife. He is not
American, and I fear he would find us devoid of anything resembling philosophy.
Rorty was at least concerned with the possibility of ethics, but Zizek would
probably think his postmodern pragmatism useless. My opinion is of course less
informed than others who should feel free to comment.

Mary

Bill,

I agree with you that the current situation in the US and the UK, where those in
work work longer and longer hours whilst the number out of work gets steadily
higher, is not a good way for society to be.

However I do not agree with you when you write:

"It seems 10% of the people just do not buy into work at all. … The non working
life is being accessed by people who are talented but just plain lazy. I
consider them economic terrorists as they rob the economy by economic
levelling."

My own experience is that most of those without work would like to earn their
way and contribute to society. They fail to get jobs for reasons such as these:
they are single parents bringing up children; they have low levels of education
and poor social skills such that employers are reluctant to take them on; they
had mild psychological problems which make it difficult for them to cope with a
rigid nine to five environment and close proximity to fellow workers who often
are insensitive and bullying.

I would prefer to move to a society where working hours are reduced, so those in
work can have a life outside work, and more job opportunities are created for
those out-of-work.

I agree with you that workers should unite to unmask and defeat sweat-shop
capitalism. This is why we need strong trade unions. I also agree with your
suggestion that consumers boycott those companies who force workers to work in
cruel and dehumanising conditions in places like China.

I would favour tax laws favouring fully home-produced products and penalising
those multinational companies who manufacture their goods overseas then import
them.

Certainly SUV's are safer than smaller, more environmentally-friendly cars, but
the answer here to try to make the roads safer. Perhaps we need more speed
cameras? (Joke!)

Jim

--- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <jjimstuart1@...> wrote:
>
> Bill,
>
> I agree with you that the current situation in the US and the UK, where those
in work work longer and longer hours whilst the number out of work gets steadily
higher, is not a good way for society to be.
>
> However I do not agree with you when you write:
>
> "It seems 10% of the people just do not buy into work at all. … The non
working life is being accessed by people who are talented but just plain lazy. I
consider them economic terrorists as they rob the economy by economic
levelling."
>
> My own experience is that most of those without work would like to earn their
way and contribute to society. They fail to get jobs for reasons such as these:
they are single parents bringing up children; they have low levels of education
and poor social skills such that employers are reluctant to take them on; they
had mild psychological problems which make it difficult for them to cope with a
rigid nine to five environment and close proximity to fellow workers who often
are insensitive and bullying.
>
> I would prefer to move to a society where working hours are reduced, so those
in work can have a life outside work, and more job opportunities are created for
those out-of-work.
>
> I agree with you that workers should unite to unmask and defeat sweat-shop
capitalism. This is why we need strong trade unions. I also agree with your
suggestion that consumers boycott those companies who force workers to work in
cruel and dehumanising conditions in places like China.
>
> I would favour tax laws favouring fully home-produced products and penalising
those multinational companies who manufacture their goods overseas then import
them.
>
> Certainly SUV's are safer than smaller, more environmentally-friendly cars,
but the answer here to try to make the roads safer. Perhaps we need more speed
cameras? (Joke!)
>
> Jim
>
Jim, As a long time employer I have learned  by hard  experience to assign blaim
and take remedial action sooner, not later. The person who is canned  usually 
has made  mistakes that cost the company  and they must go. I have fired some
world class screw ups and several have sunk lower ,some ending in death. Rank
insubordination begs dismissal and many people just hate work. Once they have
crossed the line into that nihilism I have never seen one  recover. For some the
dark side of society is just too strong  an option.Once someone has stolen from
me they have crossed the line. Once someone has conspired to embezzel they have
to go. I hate those bloody showdowns and will be most happy to leave active
business behind.
  As to the cars, I spent  a good deal of time studying risk. The most dangerous
thing most people do is drive. Skiing, mountaneering and sky diving are more
dangerous  but not by much more. Driving is just too much for many on the road.
They do not respect the activity and drive while impaired by  many factors. They
are an objective risk on the road. In mountaneering rock fall is an objective
danger but you can quit mountain climbing  and survive. Try ceasing driving in
the mid west. There is little mass transportation  so you can ride a bike in
auto traffic. Thats worse. So I drive a tank. An eighteen wheeler or a train
will crush me but little else. Last year  a Corolla tangled with  my wife`s
Hummer. The Hummer and my wife had no damage, the rice burner was totaled. I
consider the objective risks of driving make it a contact sport and I want the
most durable equiptment. It is survival in high risk situations that drives my
behavour and gas mileage or eco impact just do not cut it.
  I have just heard that one of the outcomes of the present mid east revolts will
be the loss of the dollar as the currency that values oil. Some analyists think
that will bring further chaos to oil markets. They think the destabilasation
will add many dollars, rubles, pounds to the price of crude. What is being said
in Europe, I know your  petrol prices are very high. Bill

The Pentagon Papers are out, public and supposidly unredacted. They deal with
the governments  prosecution of the Viet Nam War. There are thousands of pages
and deal with the secret communications between the miliarry and civilian
government. This was the beginning of the need to know nightmare. It destroyed
the first amendment  for orginary citisens and  insured the governments  right
to lie to its people. An analyst who has read it all says the important idea of
the giant leak was At crucial moments of the Viet Nam war the govermont lied to
the american people in order to further prosecute the war.
  Very few   people will actually read these transcripts. They are one or two
wars behind. In 1967 I realised the war was a sham. It was a political cash
shunt to the military. Nixon, the emperior, was on the loose and was  ripping
south east asia apart. I remember the screams as military busses ran over
protestors. The busses were carring draftees to basic. I remember the smell of
the fired rounds on the range. Those empirical memories are only generated after
the sanitised version of history is printed with little fanfare. It seem the
memory publicae is about forty years. The truly errant generations are mostly
dead and the young just don`t want to hear it.
  So should I be a good post modernist and ignore this scant revelation of the
truth. Should I ignore the stark parellel with this contempory version with the
oil wars? I dunno, depends if it intrefers with my nap. Bill

We baby boomers were raised to think progress  was the only situation we would
encounter. Progress has been a long time tenant of modernism but some  numbers
are disputing this situation.
  Last week I read an article that said young women probably will have shorter
lives than their mothers. The study pointed to greater use of  tobacco, alcohol,
and poor diets contributing to obesity causing decrease in life expectancy. The
South seems to be experiencing the greatest decrease in longivity.I had always
thought life expectancy would increase in modern countries but  it seems I need
rethink that axiom. It is hard to accept moving back, dying sooner, being more 
poor.
  It is obvious that the faith based plan to become more communal and pool their
time and resorces. I do not think that will necessarily be the better plan. In
fact religion seems to have little impact on the situation. Reasonable
expectations may be  a better survival asset  than pooling of assets.
  I recently spoke with  my brother who is a well paid Phd. He is at the end of
the baby boom and I am at the front. He does not expect to live as  well as I do
even though he is very well positioned. He has little faith in the generation 
behind him and fears a general fundamentalism that will drag us back. He is
actually looking for  a religionless area where he can avoid right wing
political aggressions and violence. He has three boys to put through college .
He can no longer stand the Minn winters and will try Colorado, he likes to ski
powder.
In the slow sweep of history he is better positioned to see the signs around him
as I have been surrounded by old boomers and find degressions abominalible while
he finds them unavoidable. I fear he is correct and I must reevaluate. What do
you say? Bill

Bill,

Your brother shouldn't have much worry, as he's apparently affluent enough to
settle in bourgeosie Colorado and keep his skiing. And while higher education is
another federally subsidized bubble costing too much for too little, it's safely
esconced for now by the education lobby. And as for violence from the ole'
religion boogeyman, he's more apt to be set upon by the wilding wolfpacks
now besieging urban areas like Chicago than by any Sunday school yahoos, though
then again, he's going to Colorado. But keep your guard up. Some of those broke
and shuttered parishes your're obsessed about might yet get a boost from the
Latino flood the Left's letting in.

Irvin


--- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@...> wrote:
>
> We baby boomers were raised to think progress  was the only situation we would
encounter. Progress has been a long time tenant of modernism but some  numbers
are disputing this situation.
>  Last week I read an article that said young women probably will have shorter
lives than their mothers. The study pointed to greater use of  tobacco, alcohol,
and poor diets contributing to obesity causing decrease in life expectancy. The
South seems to be experiencing the greatest decrease in longivity.I had always
thought life expectancy would increase in modern countries but  it seems I need
rethink that axiom. It is hard to accept moving back, dying sooner, being more 
poor.
>  It is obvious that the faith based plan to become more communal and pool
their time and resorces. I do not think that will necessarily be the better
plan. In fact religion seems to have little impact on the situation. Reasonable
expectations may be  a better survival asset  than pooling of assets.
>  I recently spoke with  my brother who is a well paid Phd. He is at the end of
the baby boom and I am at the front. He does not expect to live as  well as I do
even though he is very well positioned. He has little faith in the generation 
behind him and fears a general fundamentalism that will drag us back. He is
actually looking for  a religionless area where he can avoid right wing
political aggressions and violence. He has three boys to put through college .
He can no longer stand the Minn winters and will try Colorado, he likes to ski
powder.
> In the slow sweep of history he is better positioned to see the signs around
him as I have been surrounded by old boomers and find degressions abominalible
while he finds them unavoidable. I fear he is correct and I must reevaluate.
What do you say? Bill
>

--- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@...> wrote:
>
> We baby boomers were raised to think progress  was the only situation we would
encounter. Progress has been a long time tenant of modernism but some  numbers
are disputing this situation.
>  Last week I read an article that said young women probably will have shorter
lives than their mothers. The study pointed to greater use of  tobacco, alcohol,
and poor diets contributing to obesity causing decrease in life expectancy. The
South seems to be experiencing the greatest decrease in longivity.I had always
thought life expectancy would increase in modern countries but  it seems I need
rethink that axiom. It is hard to accept moving back, dying sooner, being more 
poor.
>  It is obvious that the faith based plan to become more communal and pool
their time and resorces. I do not think that will necessarily be the better
plan. In fact religion seems to have little impact on the situation. Reasonable
expectations may be  a better survival asset  than pooling of assets.
>  I recently spoke with  my brother who is a well paid Phd. He is at the end of
the baby boom and I am at the front. He does not expect to live as  well as I do
even though he is very well positioned. He has little faith in the generation 
behind him and fears a general fundamentalism that will drag us back. He is
actually looking for  a religionless area where he can avoid right wing
political aggressions and violence. He has three boys to put through college .
He can no longer stand the Minn winters and will try Colorado, he likes to ski
powder.
> In the slow sweep of history he is better positioned to see the signs around
him as I have been surrounded by old boomers and find degressions abominalible
while he finds them unavoidable. I fear he is correct and I must reevaluate.
What do you say? Bill
>
Obama  was castigated for calling them bumps in the road but the uncontrollable
glitches that bug the modern world  come from the allocation of goods and
services. From the Greek economic  problems to our lingering unemployment the
modern world is  trying to fine tune  cranky economies as the ancient cultures
battle in the streets  for basic control.
  Dick would chew  me out for being pessimestic  so I will say this time is
becoming more peaceful as the last series of the oil wars wind down. Now we face
swords to plowshares times and we have done this  act before. Jim and Wil may be
correct as they view ruthless capitalism  as an enemy. Certainly the bumps we
are experiencing come from insurance and banking interests refusing to settle
for any less than their usual lions share. If you could see the huge,opulent
insurance buildings going up in  my town you would surmise they plan to take
more not less. I do not see them as progressive  but they do provide jobs  and
they are not directly war based. I certainly view them as superior to the mad
theocracys of the mid east and better than the eco disasters looming in China
and India.
  As a best case senario  I think Lehman Bros may have been USA`s financial
watershed just as Greece ,Ireland  and others being Europe`s financial
armegeddon may be remedied with little or no bloodshed. So stepping back and
viewing  the general direction  of human civilasation it seems  directed toward
better organisation with less resort to war. Libya, Syria, Iraque and Iran are
small countries that we may be able to allow to move slowly forward. In Saudi
the women are rebelling for driving priveledges and I think they will win. If
the religous cops  in The Kingdom could see American women texting  and driving 
across the mid line they might fight to the death to maintain  their theocracy.
Bill

--- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "irvhal" <i99hj@...> wrote:
>
>
> Bill,
>
> Your brother shouldn't have much worry, as he's apparently affluent enough to
settle in bourgeosie Colorado and keep his skiing. And while higher education is
another federally subsidized bubble costing too much for too little, it's safely
esconced for now by the education lobby. And as for violence from the ole'
religion boogeyman, he's more apt to be set upon by the wilding wolfpacks
> now besieging urban areas like Chicago than by any Sunday school yahoos,
though then again, he's going to Colorado. But keep your guard up. Some of those
broke and shuttered parishes your're obsessed about might yet get a boost from
the Latino flood the Left's letting in.
>
> Irvin
> Irvin, I am unaware of wolfpacks in Chicago, I try to keep my exposure there
to O,Hara. Is this some Clockwork Orange sort of hoolaganism or is there some
sort of organisation?
Yesterday I saw a clever news  spot that featured  a Georgia farmer saying he
could not find workers to pick his produce. Mexico`s drug jahaad is not yet up
to stemming the popes population bubble and the left does seem to be advocating
further admission of upwardly mobile catholics for the pope to dunn for tithes.
The Dem`s know the hispanics will be voting left for generations so they and the
pope are allies of convenience as the affluent  upper class catholics  go right
and Republican to keep the little brown guys out. None of them remember the boat
from Liverpool and Ellis Island. These kind of things piss me off  but I am
trying to keep some perspective  on what are relatively small and peaceful
problems. My office manager is fourth generation Mexican immigrant. She and her
husband do not speak spanish and live in a nice house on an acerage. He works
for an insurance company and they will be going to Hawaii next week. Not bad for
people  we brand as backward stoop labor. The half hispanic next door neighbor
is graduating two children fron Iowa State. They do not speak spanish and are
voraceous small business people. The system is still working but if you look at
it as a snapshot it can appear grim. I think the longer view does it justice.
Bill
>
> --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@> wrote:
> >
> > We baby boomers were raised to think progress  was the only situation we
would encounter. Progress has been a long time tenant of modernism but some 
numbers are disputing this situation.
> >  Last week I read an article that said young women probably will have
shorter lives than their mothers. The study pointed to greater use of  tobacco,
alcohol, and poor diets contributing to obesity causing decrease in life
expectancy. The South seems to be experiencing the greatest decrease in
longivity.I had always thought life expectancy would increase in modern
countries but  it seems I need rethink that axiom. It is hard to accept moving
back, dying sooner, being more  poor.
> >  It is obvious that the faith based plan to become more communal and pool
their time and resorces. I do not think that will necessarily be the better
plan. In fact religion seems to have little impact on the situation. Reasonable
expectations may be  a better survival asset  than pooling of assets.
> >  I recently spoke with  my brother who is a well paid Phd. He is at the end
of the baby boom and I am at the front. He does not expect to live as  well as I
do even though he is very well positioned. He has little faith in the generation
behind him and fears a general fundamentalism that will drag us back. He is
actually looking for  a religionless area where he can avoid right wing
political aggressions and violence. He has three boys to put through college .
He can no longer stand the Minn winters and will try Colorado, he likes to ski
powder.
> > In the slow sweep of history he is better positioned to see the signs around
him as I have been surrounded by old boomers and find degressions abominalible
while he finds them unavoidable. I fear he is correct and I must reevaluate.
What do you say? Bill
> >
>

Bill,

I agree that our immigration policy seems politically rather than need driven,
and that its calculus favors discrete political interests. To say that the
torrents crossing our borders are justified by produce-picking or other cheap
labor belabors both our high unemployment rate and the ready substitution of
capital for labor in an age of ongoing automation. A rational immigration policy
would be keyed to national benefit, keying admission to those bringing capital
or expertise to the table -- not an unskilled or semi-skilled peasent class
threatening to beget an alienated lumpen-proletariate. An example of a
beneficient immigrant class are the Cubans or Indians whose skills and
dispositions are aposite for both national assimilation and a net economic
benefit. Compare this, in contradistinction, to the politically devious
"diversity lottery" now in place that trumps need and prudence for ideology.

Irvin

--- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "irvhal" <i99hj@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Bill,
> >
> > Your brother shouldn't have much worry, as he's apparently affluent enough
to settle in bourgeosie Colorado and keep his skiing. And while higher education
is another federally subsidized bubble costing too much for too little, it's
safely esconced for now by the education lobby. And as for violence from the
ole' religion boogeyman, he's more apt to be set upon by the wilding wolfpacks
> > now besieging urban areas like Chicago than by any Sunday school yahoos,
though then again, he's going to Colorado. But keep your guard up. Some of those
broke and shuttered parishes your're obsessed about might yet get a boost from
the Latino flood the Left's letting in.
> >
> > Irvin
> > Irvin, I am unaware of wolfpacks in Chicago, I try to keep my exposure there
to O,Hara. Is this some Clockwork Orange sort of hoolaganism or is there some
sort of organisation?
> Yesterday I saw a clever news  spot that featured  a Georgia farmer saying he
could not find workers to pick his produce. Mexico`s drug jahaad is not yet up
to stemming the popes population bubble and the left does seem to be advocating
further admission of upwardly mobile catholics for the pope to dunn for tithes.
The Dem`s know the hispanics will be voting left for generations so they and the
pope are allies of convenience as the affluent  upper class catholics  go right
and Republican to keep the little brown guys out. None of them remember the boat
from Liverpool and Ellis Island. These kind of things piss me off  but I am
trying to keep some perspective  on what are relatively small and peaceful
problems. My office manager is fourth generation Mexican immigrant. She and her
husband do not speak spanish and live in a nice house on an acerage. He works
for an insurance company and they will be going to Hawaii next week. Not bad for
people  we brand as backward stoop labor. The half hispanic next door neighbor
is graduating two children fron Iowa State. They do not speak spanish and are
voraceous small business people. The system is still working but if you look at
it as a snapshot it can appear grim. I think the longer view does it justice.
Bill
> >
> > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@> wrote:
> > >
> > > We baby boomers were raised to think progress  was the only situation we
would encounter. Progress has been a long time tenant of modernism but some 
numbers are disputing this situation.
> > >  Last week I read an article that said young women probably will have
shorter lives than their mothers. The study pointed to greater use of  tobacco,
alcohol, and poor diets contributing to obesity causing decrease in life
expectancy. The South seems to be experiencing the greatest decrease in
longivity.I had always thought life expectancy would increase in modern
countries but  it seems I need rethink that axiom. It is hard to accept moving
back, dying sooner, being more  poor.
> > >  It is obvious that the faith based plan to become more communal and pool
their time and resorces. I do not think that will necessarily be the better
plan. In fact religion seems to have little impact on the situation. Reasonable
expectations may be  a better survival asset  than pooling of assets.
> > >  I recently spoke with  my brother who is a well paid Phd. He is at the
end of the baby boom and I am at the front. He does not expect to live as  well
as I do even though he is very well positioned. He has little faith in the
generation  behind him and fears a general fundamentalism that will drag us
back. He is actually looking for  a religionless area where he can avoid right
wing political aggressions and violence. He has three boys to put through
college . He can no longer stand the Minn winters and will try Colorado, he
likes to ski powder.
> > > In the slow sweep of history he is better positioned to see the signs
around him as I have been surrounded by old boomers and find degressions
abominalible while he finds them unavoidable. I fear he is correct and I must
reevaluate. What do you say? Bill
> > >
> >
>

--- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "irvhal" <i99hj@...> wrote:
>
> Bill,
>
> I agree that our immigration policy seems politically rather than need driven,
and that its calculus favors discrete political interests. To say that the
torrents crossing our borders are justified by produce-picking or other cheap
labor belabors both our high unemployment rate and the ready substitution of
capital for labor in an age of ongoing automation. A rational immigration policy
would be keyed to national benefit, keying admission to those bringing capital
or expertise to the table -- not an unskilled or semi-skilled peasent class
threatening to beget an alienated lumpen-proletariate. An example of a
beneficient immigrant class are the Cubans or Indians whose skills and
dispositions are aposite for both national assimilation and a net economic
benefit. Compare this, in contradistinction, to the politically devious
"diversity lottery" now in place that trumps need and prudence for ideology.
>
> Irvin
> Irvin, two great sentances;an unskilled or semi skilled peasant class
threatning to beget  an alien  lupen proliterate and diversity lottery are
really anathama to correctness. I hpoe you will be attacked by the post
modernist fringe as I know you are most capable of self defense.
  We have a great country so why should we be made to take in all the losers. The
diversity lottery  seems like good o`l global warming and  globalisation which
were annointed as proper policy  by forces I do not know or understand. The
former is just unproven double talk and the latter is a bankers wet dream. Bill
> --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "irvhal" <i99hj@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Bill,
> > >
> > > Your brother shouldn't have much worry, as he's apparently affluent enough
to settle in bourgeosie Colorado and keep his skiing. And while higher education
is another federally subsidized bubble costing too much for too little, it's
safely esconced for now by the education lobby. And as for violence from the
ole' religion boogeyman, he's more apt to be set upon by the wilding wolfpacks
> > > now besieging urban areas like Chicago than by any Sunday school yahoos,
though then again, he's going to Colorado. But keep your guard up. Some of those
broke and shuttered parishes your're obsessed about might yet get a boost from
the Latino flood the Left's letting in.
> > >
> > > Irvin
> > > Irvin, I am unaware of wolfpacks in Chicago, I try to keep my exposure
there to O,Hara. Is this some Clockwork Orange sort of hoolaganism or is there
some sort of organisation?
> > Yesterday I saw a clever news  spot that featured  a Georgia farmer saying
he could not find workers to pick his produce. Mexico`s drug jahaad is not yet
up to stemming the popes population bubble and the left does seem to be
advocating further admission of upwardly mobile catholics for the pope to dunn
for tithes. The Dem`s know the hispanics will be voting left for generations so
they and the pope are allies of convenience as the affluent  upper class
catholics  go right and Republican to keep the little brown guys out. None of
them remember the boat  from Liverpool and Ellis Island. These kind of things
piss me off  but I am trying to keep some perspective  on what are relatively
small and peaceful problems. My office manager is fourth generation Mexican
immigrant. She and her husband do not speak spanish and live in a nice house on
an acerage. He works for an insurance company and they will be going to Hawaii
next week. Not bad for people  we brand as backward stoop labor. The half
hispanic next door neighbor is graduating two children fron Iowa State. They do
not speak spanish and are voraceous small business people. The system is still
working but if you look at it as a snapshot it can appear grim. I think the
longer view does it justice. Bill
> > >
> > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > We baby boomers were raised to think progress  was the only situation we
would encounter. Progress has been a long time tenant of modernism but some 
numbers are disputing this situation.
> > > >  Last week I read an article that said young women probably will have
shorter lives than their mothers. The study pointed to greater use of  tobacco,
alcohol, and poor diets contributing to obesity causing decrease in life
expectancy. The South seems to be experiencing the greatest decrease in
longivity.I had always thought life expectancy would increase in modern
countries but  it seems I need rethink that axiom. It is hard to accept moving
back, dying sooner, being more  poor.
> > > >  It is obvious that the faith based plan to become more communal and
pool their time and resorces. I do not think that will necessarily be the better
plan. In fact religion seems to have little impact on the situation. Reasonable
expectations may be  a better survival asset  than pooling of assets.
> > > >  I recently spoke with  my brother who is a well paid Phd. He is at the
end of the baby boom and I am at the front. He does not expect to live as  well
as I do even though he is very well positioned. He has little faith in the
generation  behind him and fears a general fundamentalism that will drag us
back. He is actually looking for  a religionless area where he can avoid right
wing political aggressions and violence. He has three boys to put through
college . He can no longer stand the Minn winters and will try Colorado, he
likes to ski powder.
> > > > In the slow sweep of history he is better positioned to see the signs
around him as I have been surrounded by old boomers and find degressions
abominalible while he finds them unavoidable. I fear he is correct and I must
reevaluate. What do you say? Bill
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Hi all,

Of course cruising the high seas on a ship is only possible for the likes of
us because there are seas of wafer-thin Filipino, Thai and Indonesian people
for whom working twelve hour days for $80 per week is an attractive
proposition. Never mind that once they get on their ship, they will not see
their invariably young families for eight months.

I put on 3.5 kgs (something like a gallon, only different), while I'm
already 20 kgs (five gallons for y'all) over what I need to be.

How utterly ridiculous and decadent to be waited on, hand and foot, while
the ruins of the imposition of French colonialism on Kanak societies present
themselves for your viewing pleasure. The Loyalty Islands are so named for a
good reason, but that will remain an incomprehensible motive for those
accustomed to using others as means to an end.

Cheers

Herman


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Herman <hhofmeister@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Of course cruising the high seas on a ship is only possible for the likes of
> us because there are seas of wafer-thin Filipino, Thai and Indonesian people
> for whom working twelve hour days for $80 per week is an attractive
> proposition. Never mind that once they get on their ship, they will not see
> their invariably young families for eight months.
>
> I put on 3.5 kgs (something like a gallon, only different), while I'm
> already 20 kgs (five gallons for y'all) over what I need to be.
>
> How utterly ridiculous and decadent to be waited on, hand and foot, while
> the ruins of the imposition of French colonialism on Kanak societies present
> themselves for your viewing pleasure. The Loyalty Islands are so named for a
> good reason, but that will remain an incomprehensible motive for those
> accustomed to using others as means to an end.
>
> Cheers
>
> Herman
> Herman, if you were not on board,spending money ,those service workers would
be on some beach trying to catch a fish. Just treat them with respect and tip
them well. I am sure sometime in the past you or one of your ancestors were
scooping shit for low wages. Enjoy your brief royalty, it will end too soon.
have a great time,Bill
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Herman,

Thank you for the heartfelt postcard. If we are unable to affect the necessary
changes implied by your lament, I believe it better to live with guilt than to
rationalize it away. There's something very wrong with a world wherein the
desire for beauty, comfort, and adventure cost others so dearly. Perhaps this
absurdity will someday yield a complete passivity which in turn will prepare the
way for a true act of change. The tension between aesthetics and ascetics is
often unbearable.

Mary

--- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Herman <hhofmeister@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Of course cruising the high seas on a ship is only possible for the likes of
> us because there are seas of wafer-thin Filipino, Thai and Indonesian people
> for whom working twelve hour days for $80 per week is an attractive
> proposition. Never mind that once they get on their ship, they will not see
> their invariably young families for eight months.
>
> I put on 3.5 kgs (something like a gallon, only different), while I'm
> already 20 kgs (five gallons for y'all) over what I need to be.
>
> How utterly ridiculous and decadent to be waited on, hand and foot, while
> the ruins of the imposition of French colonialism on Kanak societies present
> themselves for your viewing pleasure. The Loyalty Islands are so named for a
> good reason, but that will remain an incomprehensible motive for those
> accustomed to using others as means to an end.
>
> Cheers
>
> Herman
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

--- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@...> wrote:
>
> Herman,
>
> Thank you for the heartfelt postcard. If we are unable to affect the necessary
changes implied by your lament, I believe it better to live with guilt than to
rationalize it away. There's something very wrong with a world wherein the
desire for beauty, comfort, and adventure cost others so dearly. Perhaps this
absurdity will someday yield a complete passivity which in turn will prepare the
way for a true act of change. The tension between aesthetics and ascetics is
often unbearable.
>
> Mary
> We call them cruisers,it is not hard to discern who they are, they are the
ones with all their clothes on. They are likly white and  fat,fat fat. They seem
to be trying to eat themselves to death while they act like a herd not
individuals.The locals see them as money,money,money. Most of the cruisers work
and spend their hard earned money on a small adventure and a bit of pampering. I
think they deserve it and though not the beautiful people they are the
workers,the essential people. Sure their aesthetic dream is manufactured by
Cruise line executives with Las Vegas view points. So what, they are having a
good time and tomorrow they will have sailed away leaving cash,cash,cash. I do
not find this wrong, in fact I applaude tourism for many reasons." You gotta go
to know", should be a cruise line motto. If you get to know the island people 
you will be less likely to vote to kill them. Travel is truly educational and I
support it. You could just stay home and bitch. Bill
> --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Herman <hhofmeister@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Of course cruising the high seas on a ship is only possible for the likes of
> > us because there are seas of wafer-thin Filipino, Thai and Indonesian people
> > for whom working twelve hour days for $80 per week is an attractive
> > proposition. Never mind that once they get on their ship, they will not see
> > their invariably young families for eight months.
> >
> > I put on 3.5 kgs (something like a gallon, only different), while I'm
> > already 20 kgs (five gallons for y'all) over what I need to be.
> >
> > How utterly ridiculous and decadent to be waited on, hand and foot, while
> > the ruins of the imposition of French colonialism on Kanak societies present
> > themselves for your viewing pleasure. The Loyalty Islands are so named for a
> > good reason, but that will remain an incomprehensible motive for those
> > accustomed to using others as means to an end.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Herman
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

But remember too that in a free market economy, where, to paraphrase Herbert
Spencer, the regime of status has been replaced by one of contract, one man's
leisure is another's opportunity.

Irvin



--- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Herman <hhofmeister@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Of course cruising the high seas on a ship is only possible for the likes of
> us because there are seas of wafer-thin Filipino, Thai and Indonesian people
> for whom working twelve hour days for $80 per week is an attractive
> proposition. Never mind that once they get on their ship, they will not see
> their invariably young families for eight months.
>
> I put on 3.5 kgs (something like a gallon, only different), while I'm
> already 20 kgs (five gallons for y'all) over what I need to be.
>
> How utterly ridiculous and decadent to be waited on, hand and foot, while
> the ruins of the imposition of French colonialism on Kanak societies present
> themselves for your viewing pleasure. The Loyalty Islands are so named for a
> good reason, but that will remain an incomprehensible motive for those
> accustomed to using others as means to an end.
>
> Cheers
>
> Herman
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

--- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "irvhal" <i99hj@...> wrote:
>
> But remember too that in a free market economy, where, to paraphrase Herbert
Spencer, the regime of status has been replaced by one of contract, one man's
leisure is another's opportunity.
>
> Irvin
> Irvin,I am decimated by what you call contract law.So we give authority  from
bankers to lawyers. Is that not a hand off  between lisards? I really do not 
announce what is obviouses.  I atttempt to mirror youe style which is 
perceptable. " Keep on  sailing sailor" > Bill
>
> --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Herman <hhofmeister@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Of course cruising the high seas on a ship is only possible for the likes of
> > us because there are seas of wafer-thin Filipino, Thai and Indonesian people
> > for whom working twelve hour days for $80 per week is an attractive
> > proposition. Never mind that once they get on their ship, they will not see
> > their invariably young families for eight months.
> >
> > I put on 3.5 kgs (something like a gallon, only different), while I'm
> > already 20 kgs (five gallons for y'all) over what I need to be.
> >
> > How utterly ridiculous and decadent to be waited on, hand and foot, while
> > the ruins of the imposition of French colonialism on Kanak societies present
> > themselves for your viewing pleasure. The Loyalty Islands are so named for a
> > good reason, but that will remain an incomprehensible motive for those
> > accustomed to using others as means to an end.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Herman
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

Now let us speak of individual need. That is of Charles Dickens and other
pragmatists. The supposidly reliable theories of economics are  less than fifty
per cent reliable. The  cunts at the Dow  ply those rules. The real players have
assets  and are bieng ignored by children of promise. A few thounand presenters
are well identified and crimes  are spoken of. George Bush has left the
fraternity dungeon house. HE WANTS OUTSIDE. ????? bILL

Eric cantor walked out of the debt ceiling talks. He asserts there will be no
tax hikes for the wealthy coming out of the republican house. There will also be
no taxation of big oil. Obama retaliates with the release of 30 million bls of
crude from the strategic reserve. That will reduce oil profits this summer. Oil
and pharmaseuticals put Bush in office  and oil and Texas are booming. Obama is
taking  cash out of their coffers and making political hay with the middle
class. Cheaper gas could spur the recovery and  Obama has become the Speculator
in Chief. This is unprecidented and Obama could make the government a one day
allotment of US fuel if that oil was bought significantly lower than present day
prices. The White House is  in oli speculation for political gain and the goring
of the republican money machine. Along the way he may make a good deal of money
for USA. The offered  explanation was replacement for Libian Oil but Saudi had
already raised production to make up any  shortfall. This is a sort of political
hardball like I have never seen. Plus they got Whitey and he`s going back to
Boston. This should be an interesting summer. Bill

--- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@...> wrote:
>
> Eric cantor walked out of the debt ceiling talks. He asserts there will be no
tax hikes for the wealthy coming out of the republican house. There will also be
no taxation of big oil. Obama retaliates with the release of 30 million bls of
crude from the strategic reserve. That will reduce oil profits this summer. Oil
and pharmaseuticals put Bush in office  and oil and Texas are booming. Obama is
taking  cash out of their coffers and making political hay with the middle
class. Cheaper gas could spur the recovery and  Obama has become the Speculator
in Chief. This is unprecidented and Obama could make the government a one day
allotment of US fuel if that oil was bought significantly lower than present day
prices. The White House is  in oli speculation for political gain and the goring
of the republican money machine. Along the way he may make a good deal of money
for USA. The offered  explanation was replacement for Libian Oil but Saudi had
already raised production to make up any  shortfall. This is a sort of political
hardball like I have never seen. Plus they got Whitey and he`s going back to
Boston. This should be an interesting summer. Bill
>
Oh, by the way the Supreme court just gave immunity to  the generic drug makers
,5 to 4 along what we are to believe are non party decisions. Who says gridlock
cannot be fun. Bill

Bill,

Posting on the fly here due to my indulgence in summer reading (Hegel, J.M.
Coetzee, Richard Louv), local tourism, and family this summer. Found this in
Zizek's "How To Read Lacan", which suggests my current political mode.

"Even in much of today's progressive politics, the danger is not passivity, but
pseudo-activity, the urge to be active and to participate. People intervene all
the time, attempting to "do something," academics participate in meaningless
debates; the truly difficult thing is to step back and to withdraw from it.
Those in power often prefer even a critical participation to silence - just to
engage us in a dialogue, to make it sure that our ominous passivity is broken.
Against such an interpassive mode in which we are active all the time to make
sure that nothing will really change, the first truly critical step is to
withdraw into passivity and to refuse to participate. This first step clears the
ground for a true activity, for an act that will effectively change the
coordinates of the constellation."

Mary

--- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@...> wrote:
>
> Bill,
>
> Posting on the fly here due to my indulgence in summer reading (Hegel, J.M.
Coetzee, Richard Louv), local tourism, and family this summer. Found this in
Zizek's "How To Read Lacan", which suggests my current political mode.
>
> "Even in much of today's progressive politics, the danger is not passivity,
but pseudo-activity, the urge to be active and to participate. People intervene
all the time, attempting to "do something," academics participate in meaningless
debates; the truly difficult thing is to step back and to withdraw from it.
Those in power often prefer even a critical participation to silence - just to
engage us in a dialogue, to make it sure that our ominous passivity is broken.
Against such an interpassive mode in which we are active all the time to make
sure that nothing will really change, the first truly critical step is to
withdraw into passivity and to refuse to participate. This first step clears the
ground for a true activity, for an act that will effectively change the
coordinates of the constellation."
>
> Mary
>
Mary, the progression of thought seems a nonsequetor. Why need passivity proceed
"true activity' .I have a tendancy to repeat those things work for me. I have
had hugedly rewarding results from traveling. It has often been analygous to
opening a new compartment of my mind. For instance; I clibmed from the base to
the barren snow top of  mano kyia. The ecosystem  goes from arctic at the top to
tropical at the base. The animals and plants of all those altitudes are there,
in strata as definitive as sedentary rock. If you have taken special arctic
survival, ecology, geology and comparative anatomy your mind just fillss up with
observations that return when needed over the years. Those subjects are
interlocked and crossed referenced in the brain and can secrete hormones
associated with pleasure.That probably  will be banned by the grim faced bible
pounders but I can do it without even smiling.
  I try to control my hormonal self and know some things that work.I find age has
buffered hormonal responses. The loss of youth really turns one down. When
Barney  and Ron Paul can alley for cause I apreciate the power of the mind over
brutal hormones. I think not passivity but prior involvement is the spring board
to constructive change.
  I get "What are you going to do when you retire"  a lot now and I usually
respond "Travel'. Soon I will be in  a university town, picking the brains of 
interesting students. They will say anything for a beer and I always buy.
  I learned that from a major hollywood star who would buy all the drinks for
everybody for  a couple of hours. She would get very fucked up and it would be a
really great party. ZZ Top showed up at The Jerome and bought two rounds. They
had an accountant  along with the security and he just wrote a cheque and
deducted it as advertising. Now that is the music business doing  the party
right.
  So if I can mix business with pleasure I put my order in. Frank and Paul are my
new heros and Jim had predicted something like this. Crusing the high seas has
its benefits. Bill

Mary,

You quote the following passage from Zizek:

"Even in much of today's progressive politics, the danger is not passivity, but
pseudo-activity, the urge to be active and to participate. People intervene all
the time, attempting to "do something," academics participate in meaningless
debates; the truly difficult thing is to step back and to withdraw from it.
Those in power often prefer even a critical participation to silence - just to
engage us in a dialogue, to make it sure that our ominous passivity is broken.
Against such an interpassive mode in which we are active all the time to make
sure that nothing will really change, the first truly critical step is to
withdraw into passivity and to refuse to participate. This first step clears the
ground for a true activity, for an act that will effectively change the
coordinates of the constellation."

This is very typical of Zizek, and I find myself both attracted to what he says,
but also, at the same time, uneasy about his idea.

I am uneasy because he seems to disparage the little things people do to try to
make the world a better place: The attempt to reduce one's carbon footprint, or
write letters or sign petitions against the worst excesses of virulent
capitalism, or go on local demonstrations with a few hundred people.

Is Zizek really suggesting it is best not to do these things because the ruling
elite want to have a minority opposing their policies in a public way?

Does Zizek really think we hurt the ruling elite by sitting sullenly at home
doing nothing?

What exactly does he mean by suggesting we should "withdraw into passivity and
refuse to participate"? How does one refuse to participate in capitalism? By
refusing to consume – by just buying enough food to survive and nothing else?

Perhaps Zizek fleshes out his idea in the subsequent paragraphs.

I agree with Zizek to this extent: It is a good idea to choose one's battles
with the ruling elite and not just run around like a headless chicken.

I have recently chosen a particular battle by refusing to fill in the UK census
form because the contract for processing the data has been awarded the world's
largest arms manufacturer – the American firm Lockheed Martin.

My action will probably result in a criminal record and a fine of around £1000.
I explained to the authorities that I was refusing to fill in the form for
ethical reasons – I did not want to have blood on my hands by contributing to
the profits and flourishing of a company which manufactures weapons of mass
destruction including nuclear warheads and cluster bombs which are mainly used
to kill and maime innocent civilians in third-world countries.

I don't expect the ruling elite will be much affected by my individual action. I
am not sure if Zizek would approve of my action or disapprove of it as the sort
of action the ruling elite actually wants to take place to strengthen its power.

Jim

I find pyrrhic victory  unacceptable. Dropping out as a tactical retreat  can be
a very good method. Refusing to fill out your census form and  getting a big
fine sounds masochistic to me. You know those bureaucrats do not care at all.
Their pay is the same if they are  screwing you or the next guy.
  I will ask who this ruling elete might be? Are they the same ones you elected
or do you subscribe to some  black hand that controls the world.
As an individual we have little volumn to our tune. "Tinkle tinkle little star"
Why not back off and do something you enjoy  with the fine you save? In Jims
case he would probably retreat to blood  donership or perhaps a self flageration
club. In "The night they drove old Dixie down" They say: take what you need and
leave the rest but they should never have taken the very best. You will only be
missed if you are truly great and then they will probably kill you. Bill

I've got problems with the canonization of any political school --"progressive",
Marxist or otherwise -- as the Truth. Such notion bespeaks an arrogance that
broaches a claim of omniscience -- reminding me of Sartre's bottom-up
(re)constructioning of the human situation in the "Critique of Dialectical
Reason." Political life, like life generally, is experience, not propositions.
Or as Heidegger would say, truth is an historical process of unconcealment.
Hence the truth revealed by Newton --true in its day and context -- is later
supplemented by Heisenberg's quantum mechanics. Such modesty, which acknowledges
our epistimic finitude, acknowledges human limitations and fits well with the
more realistic proximations of interests embodied in Western parliamentary
democracy.

Irvin

--- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@...> wrote:
>
> Bill,
>
> Posting on the fly here due to my indulgence in summer reading (Hegel, J.M.
Coetzee, Richard Louv), local tourism, and family this summer. Found this in
Zizek's "How To Read Lacan", which suggests my current political mode.
>
> "Even in much of today's progressive politics, the danger is not passivity,
but pseudo-activity, the urge to be active and to participate. People intervene
all the time, attempting to "do something," academics participate in meaningless
debates; the truly difficult thing is to step back and to withdraw from it.
Those in power often prefer even a critical participation to silence - just to
engage us in a dialogue, to make it sure that our ominous passivity is broken.
Against such an interpassive mode in which we are active all the time to make
sure that nothing will really change, the first truly critical step is to
withdraw into passivity and to refuse to participate. This first step clears the
ground for a true activity, for an act that will effectively change the
coordinates of the constellation."
>
> Mary
>

Hi Bill,

On 21 June 2011 03:28, William <v.valleywestdental@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
>
>
> --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Herman <hhofmeister@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Of course cruising the high seas on a ship is only possible for the likes
> of
> > us because there are seas of wafer-thin Filipino, Thai and Indonesian
> people
> > for whom working twelve hour days for $80 per week is an attractive
> > proposition. Never mind that once they get on their ship, they will not
> see
> > their invariably young families for eight months.
> >
> > I put on 3.5 kgs (something like a gallon, only different), while I'm
> > already 20 kgs (five gallons for y'all) over what I need to be.
> >
> > How utterly ridiculous and decadent to be waited on, hand and foot, while
> > the ruins of the imposition of French colonialism on Kanak societies
> present
> > themselves for your viewing pleasure. The Loyalty Islands are so named
> for a
> > good reason, but that will remain an incomprehensible motive for those
> > accustomed to using others as means to an end.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Herman
> > Herman, if you were not on board,spending money ,those service workers
> would be on some beach trying to catch a fish.
>


You might be right, but I suspect that most of them come from large urban
slums, where there is not even an opportunity to fish.


> Just treat them with respect and tip them well. I am sure sometime in the
> past you or one of your ancestors were scooping shit for low wages. Enjoy
> your brief royalty, it will end too soon. have a great time,Bill
> >
>

Thanks for your well wishes. We saw plenty of subsistence living on the
smaller islands, and you know, those people seemed genuinely content.
Getting your produce from the local markets, from the people who harvested
it that morning, has a lot going for it. And catching a fish from the
cleanest water imaginable, in order to roast it on a fire and eat it, ain't
so bad. Being deprived of the possibility of doing so is.

Cheers


Herman


> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Herman <hhofmeister@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
>
> On 21 June 2011 03:28, William <v.valleywestdental@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Herman <hhofmeister@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > Of course cruising the high seas on a ship is only possible for the likes
> > of
> > > us because there are seas of wafer-thin Filipino, Thai and Indonesian
> > people
> > > for whom working twelve hour days for $80 per week is an attractive
> > > proposition. Never mind that once they get on their ship, they will not
> > see
> > > their invariably young families for eight months.
> > >
> > > I put on 3.5 kgs (something like a gallon, only different), while I'm
> > > already 20 kgs (five gallons for y'all) over what I need to be.
> > >
> > > How utterly ridiculous and decadent to be waited on, hand and foot, while
> > > the ruins of the imposition of French colonialism on Kanak societies
> > present
> > > themselves for your viewing pleasure. The Loyalty Islands are so named
> > for a
> > > good reason, but that will remain an incomprehensible motive for those
> > > accustomed to using others as means to an end.
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > >
> > > Herman
> > > Herman, if you were not on board,spending money ,those service workers
> > would be on some beach trying to catch a fish.
> >
>
>
> You might be right, but I suspect that most of them come from large urban
> slums, where there is not even an opportunity to fish.
>
>
> > Just treat them with respect and tip them well. I am sure sometime in the
> > past you or one of your ancestors were scooping shit for low wages. Enjoy
> > your brief royalty, it will end too soon. have a great time,Bill
> > >
> >
>
> Thanks for your well wishes. We saw plenty of subsistence living on the
> smaller islands, and you know, those people seemed genuinely content.
> Getting your produce from the local markets, from the people who harvested
> it that morning, has a lot going for it. And catching a fish from the
> cleanest water imaginable, in order to roast it on a fire and eat it, ain't
> so bad. Being deprived of the possibility of doing so is.
>
> Cheers
>
>
> Herman
> Herman, It really makes you look at the world with a different perspective.
Our early hippies tried to live the simple life but the modern world would have
very little of it. The peoples in the carribean  have lost that child like
euphoria and distrust  first world people. I can see how the muslims hate
modernism. The scale from primitivism to modernism would seem to fulcrum on some
mystic religion such as Islam.I have called it evolution but that may be too
definitive a term. We are not ahead of the island people in time, it is the same
date for us all. We are not older than them our DNA is the same age. The
difference between ourselves and those islanders is the experiences of our
ancestors. We make a value judgment about our ancestors  and proclaim ourselves
superior. It appears our superiority is in arms and the power they impart to
their users. Without discernable morals and having almost total power  of arms I
can see why  peoples of prior systems are terrified of modern man. There seem no
way back but annihaliation and as yet we have stopped short.
  Recently I was speaking with a hard core conservative as to why he says Romney
will not win. The conservative says it is because the religous base will not
accept or trust a mormon. I asked him where he drew the line with  a catholic
and he said Kennedy was more an american than a papist. The conservative was
proud that Kennedy was willing to burn the world rather than give in to
communists. If you study the Cuban Missle  Crisis you will see how very close we
were.
  So it seems to me we modernists either burn the rock out and let it start over
or we dominate the simple cultures and try to force ahead with benign progress.
I just read the governments analysis of my probable  end point so anything that
happens after twenty years just has no effect on me. I suppose the Taliban will
still be stoning their women long after I am gone and so I am against degrading
my life to change them. Killing them seems even more preposterous. The total
nuclear option exists and should be appreciated when proposing policy. Seeing
the people and cultures the species has produced  can measure how much stress
various cultures can tolerate. I think Truman made the right choice at Hiroshima
and fanatical cultures should be advised of that salient point of history. Yet
the simple joy in those islanders demenor seems we may have hit our high point
whan people like that were most numerous. Bill
>
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

--- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "irvhal" <i99hj@...> wrote:
>
> I've got problems with the canonization of any political school
--"progressive", Marxist or otherwise -- as the Truth. Such notion bespeaks an
arrogance that broaches a claim of omniscience -- reminding me of Sartre's
bottom-up (re)constructioning of the human situation in the "Critique of
Dialectical Reason." Political life, like life generally, is experience, not
propositions. Or as Heidegger would say, truth is an historical process of
unconcealment. Hence the truth revealed by Newton --true in its day and context
-- is later supplemented by Heisenberg's quantum mechanics. Such modesty, which
acknowledges our epistimic finitude, acknowledges human limitations and fits
well with the more realistic proximations of interests embodied in Western
parliamentary democracy.
>
> Irvin
> Irvin, I think working politics demand changes in direction. Europe has been
democratic socialist for many years. They are lazy and overspent  . USA is
coming out of a right wing blitz of war and right wing  business malphesance.
Both nations need redirection but not the same plans. The greeks suffer  forty 
per cent employment of their young. Since we are talking about sailing the high
seas sailing the greek islands , visiting the lesser known temples and
encouraging Chinese to spend their fortune on educational trips to see one of
the first organisations of city states would give the greeks jobs and cash.
In the US reformation of insurance and banking has been blocked by the right
wing house and the people  will need to  take a realistic look and send those
politicians  home and restructure their businesses. Of course we need end the
stupid wars and reduce befense spending. The right wing will howl but they are
the minority. Thats their job to bring their ideas back when those concepts
become relevant. Bill
> --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
> >
> > Bill,
> >
> > Posting on the fly here due to my indulgence in summer reading (Hegel, J.M.
Coetzee, Richard Louv), local tourism, and family this summer. Found this in
Zizek's "How To Read Lacan", which suggests my current political mode.
> >
> > "Even in much of today's progressive politics, the danger is not passivity,
but pseudo-activity, the urge to be active and to participate. People intervene
all the time, attempting to "do something," academics participate in meaningless
debates; the truly difficult thing is to step back and to withdraw from it.
Those in power often prefer even a critical participation to silence - just to
engage us in a dialogue, to make it sure that our ominous passivity is broken.
Against such an interpassive mode in which we are active all the time to make
sure that nothing will really change, the first truly critical step is to
withdraw into passivity and to refuse to participate. This first step clears the
ground for a true activity, for an act that will effectively change the
coordinates of the constellation."
> >
> > Mary
> >
>

Two democratic senators say the republicans are trying to sabotage the US
recovery in order to embarass and defeat Obama. I have suspected this for months
and it is good to see someone in high places say it.
  That is true negative politics and usually works for a short time but can
backfire in a most embarassing way. I want real change  but so far the southern
block of ultra conservatives  have stopped most progress. We need both houses of
congress  and no bipartisanship. Ignore the conservatives and change this
country away from  the trickle down  travesty  of the neocons and religios. Stop
the deduction for religous  donations, abolish the war on drugs, cut defense
spending, reduce police presence and release non violent prisioners. That will
be a good start toward revitalising our democracy  and restoring our freedoms.
Realising how devious these right wingers are and exposing them as the bigots
they are is a start and two brave senators have started the program. Bill