Tom,

I have been battling to clarify questions involving necessity, but do not
identify this with the concept of determinism.  For me there is still a tension,
or a chasm, between philosophical and scientific territory.

Louise

--- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
>
> Herman, Louise, Mary and all.
>
> I think sometimes freedom versus determinism can become like the medieval
habit of debating the number of angels that could fit on the head of  a pin. If
we take the position that no concepts totally describe and encompas reality; at
most any theory is a temporary paradigm to describe various processes, until the
time new data emerges that don't fit within the paradigm, and a new paradigm
becomes dominant until such time that new data contradict some parts of the new
paradigm. And considering, that according to most psychianalytic views, most of
the mental processes going on within is are unconcious, both various impuslses
and the judgements we subconciously make about them. As for as the experience of
passive versus active experience, imagination can be a surrender to fantasy but
actions that require determination and the overcoming of pain, fear etc promote
an experience of agency.
>
> Peace,
> Tom
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Herman
>   To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 6:07 PM
>   Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: questioning
>
>
>
>   Hi Mary,
>
>   2009/12/22 Mary <josephson45r@...>
>
>   > Polly,
>   >
>   > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Herman <hhofmeister@> wrote:
>   >
>   > <I guess it is a matter of perspective. We both agree that decisions are
>   > made. There is without doubt the experience of imagining multiple possible
>   > courses of action, one by one (during which time we are oblivious to what
>   > is
>   > happening in the sensed world), and imagining possible consequences of any
>   > act that might be made, with one course of action eventually being
>   > followed.>
>   >
>   > But who is imagining? Whose perspective?
>   >
>
>   It would come down to whether you are asking about identity or agency. If I
>   say that I am imagining, I am only saying that the imagination is associated
>   with this body, and not that body or tree or house over there. I agree with
>   what you say below about self / not-self. The not-self in that context is
>   the other, and that relates to identity.
>
>   But if I were to say that I am imagining, and by that mean that I (whatever
>   is identified as being self) am causing the imagination to happen, then I am
>   talking about agency, and I would have to sharply disagree with myself :-)
>
>   >
>   > <My observation of that sequence of events is that it happens regardless
of
>   > whether there is a sense of active participation in and identification
with
>   > it, or merely being present to it, as a passive, non-positional
observation
>   > of a series of events that has neither a definite beginning or end. And
so,
>   > because the experience of decision-making occurs both with or without a
>   > sense of a privileged, autonomous self pulling the strings, I feel quite
>   > safe in saying that the sense of the privileged self does not actually
play
>   > a causal role in decision making at all. At best, it may be there as a
prop
>   > to fill an explanatory gap, as the gods were before Nietzsche signed their
>   > death certificates :-)>
>   >
>   > Your experience is different than mine. The only explanatory gap for me is
>   > uncertainty. My decisions will affect me and others often in unpredictable
>   > ways. Therein lies the terror. Therein lies the freedom.
>   >
>   > Perhaps I'm confusing a discrete body with a discrete mind. You see, I
>   > don't consider the concept of a 'self' any less abstract or more useful
than
>   > the concept of 'no self.' Interaction with or dependence on others doesn't
>   > negate the self, in my opinion. Concepts, even at the deepest level,
should
>   > accommodate our differing perspectives. I find the existentialist
self-other
>   > yoke closer to my experience. That's okay, right :)
>   >
>   >
>   You betcha :-)
>
>   Polly
>
>   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

--- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "louise" <hecubatoher@...> wrote:
>
> --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Louise, if the cause of an experience is open to interpretation, this
merely means the cause is uncertain, not that a cause is non-existent. I
disagree with your statement, because it's absolute. There are some experiences
with clear causes. If you mean contemplative experience only, you might have a
point. I bracketed Dennett and Nietzsche together for one reason only--they
agree that the free exercise of will is determined by or evolution or fortunate
organization.. That's how I see it. Mary
> > >
> > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "louise" <hecubatoher@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Mary,
> > > >
> > > > My disagreement with you here is stark.  I know that my experiences are
not caused, because they are interpreted.  The way in which you state your own
position makes it very hard to get any kind of purchase on what we are allegedly
discussing.  The fact that you have bracketed together Dennett and Nietzsche
also brings me to a full stop.  In any case, I felt I had to say something, and
continue to wait and see if any further avenues open up.  At the list or in my
mind.
> > > >
> > > > Louise
> > >Bill to louise. I must do my best for Our dying  spreads of failure.
Failure is an optiopn but a terminal one. Everybody knows that . Arms for who
might negate so what is next? Bill
> >
> Bill,  It is not failure that calls, but nihilism, a kind of doorway through
which I am stepping, where religious presuppositions and an overly political
conception of power fall off and are left behind.  In one of his jottings for
'Will to Power', Nietzsche relates that 'Schopenhauer's basic misunderstanding
of the will (as if craving, instinct, drive were the essence* of will) is
typical ... the will is precisely that which treats cravings as their master and
appoints to them their way and measure' [84.  Spring - Fall 1887].
> Clear perception and single resolve, open to the wider reality which is a
society of people at a particular point in history, moving always onward, are
our only recourse, whether the questions are directed toward noumenal reality,
or, for instance, the presented and concealed facts of geopolitics and trade.  I
find myself in a battle for the most precise language available, not believing
us to be merely 'products' of our families, schooling and national institutions.
Nietzsche is rare even among philosophers - I think he can provide insight and
perspective that extends far into the future.  At times the weight of feeling
myself to be witness to gradual disintegration of cherished particularities, the
crumbling of modest national pride, becomes unbearable, and I grope forward in a
blank space, looking for the pattern which guarantees rebirth from the visible
multiple deaths.  Guarantees?  I do have a trust in the necessity of things. 
Contrary dreams lie motionless, gone, the times change inexorably, immediate
feeling is crushed and a longer vista is demanded, as though survival depended
on the perception of continuity.  My thought is slow, slow, labouring like the
early evening bus through thickly falling snow - today I travelled into town and
purchased a ski jacket in the sale.  The young men in the shop were
gentle-mannered, pleasant, and as I sat on the bus remembering them, it seemed a
form of continuity, renewed reflection of Blake's perception of our own, the
English, 'mildest of Eden's sons'. What of philosophic continuity, the
importance of ideas?  They are kept alive by individuals, who are the stronger
for mutual contact - such belief keeps me at this group.  Louise
>
Louise, I am attempting to discern what sort of person this Polly might be. As I
do not know if it is male or female and it holds forth with a strident certitude
that smacks of post modernist jargon,I will reserve opinion until it says
something tangible.
  Someone mentioned billard caroms as a model for situational reality and that
seems a simplistic but possible model.Quintin Terrantino ,the US director. delt
with this in Pulp Fiction.He  sees vast discontinuities in space and time that
implode unexpectadly upon linear events causing unplanned outcomes.He would
suggest in his new film that remote and semmingly minor side plots skew the
effects of events far beyond what any probability table could produce.In fiction
one can use a temporal matrix and construct an A to B to C procession of events
that  a good Hegelian could enjoy.Terrantino shatters that handy model in Pulp
Fiction and broadens the scope of the chaos in his new film Inglorious basterds.
He detests linear topography and  uses misrepresentation  of the deceased Aldo
Ray to present his anti, hero . Terantino reminds me of Neitche in his
detestation of prior thought patterns. Aldo Ray was a real UDT frogman and
killed the Japanese on Guam, he later became the poster boy for the good troop
who came home to people the bland ,plastic world of 1950`s suburban America.
That bothers Terantino who creates an Aldo Ray who scalps nazi and demands 100
scalps from every soldier under his command. Those who cannot be scalped are
marked by cutting a swastica in their foreheads. It all ties togeather in a most
ungainly package in a reality where the real Aldo Ray who killed with a knife
and came home to three divorces . Terantino presents that reality is chaotic of
necessity and only our minds provide the missing structure. That in itself seems
most existential and much like the wild world of FN. FN and Terrantino are bomb
throwers And they do not need Polly`s mind glitch to explain a disorderly and
insane world. God is dead and so is Aldo Ray.Bill

As we have been discussing the components of an existential situation I came
upon an NYT article concerning the security problems involved with cloud
computing. Since I had no knowledge of the subject I read it. It seems
Google,facebook and twitter are all involved in these super computer functions.
I sometimes Google but do not twit or facebook yet I understand that this Yahoo
group interacts with these cloud computing entities. An expert on cyber security
says any hope of privacy is now vanished so if you lie you can be found out and
if you speak the truth as you know it, you can be misquoted.
Now there is an ether of ideas that circle the planet and remain in the memory
banks of super computers. In relation to christianity or islam our contributions
on this site are miniscule but we soldier on, making our small marks as we live
our singular lives.
  I find nothing  to fear in all of this. It seems most normal that the sound of
many should cover the voices of a few. But we are still out there, a tinkling
chime in a calcaphony of noise. So on this holiday I give you a few lyrics from
an old beat song.
  " A month of nights,a year of days. October drifting into May. I set my course
as tide comes in and I cast my fate to the wind.
There never was there could not be, a place in time for men like me. Who laugh
at night and curse the day and let their wildest dreams run away"
  Happy holidays, Bill

Bill,

I have always loved that song. Happy Holidays.

Tom
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: William
   To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 12:56 PM
   Subject: [existlist] Cloud computing



   As we have been discussing the components of an existential situation I came
upon an NYT article concerning the security problems involved with cloud
computing. Since I had no knowledge of the subject I read it. It seems
Google,facebook and twitter are all involved in these super computer functions.
I sometimes Google but do not twit or facebook yet I understand that this Yahoo
group interacts with these cloud computing entities. An expert on cyber security
says any hope of privacy is now vanished so if you lie you can be found out and
if you speak the truth as you know it, you can be misquoted.
   Now there is an ether of ideas that circle the planet and remain in the memory
banks of super computers. In relation to christianity or islam our contributions
on this site are miniscule but we soldier on, making our small marks as we live
our singular lives.
   I find nothing to fear in all of this. It seems most normal that the sound of
many should cover the voices of a few. But we are still out there, a tinkling
chime in a calcaphony of noise. So on this holiday I give you a few lyrics from
an old beat song.
   " A month of nights,a year of days. October drifting into May. I set my course
as tide comes in and I cast my fate to the wind.
   There never was there could not be, a place in time for men like me. Who laugh
at night and curse the day and let their wildest dreams run away"
   Happy holidays, Bill





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Merry Xmas Bill and all,

You wrote
Someone mentioned billard caroms as a model for situational reality and that
seems a simplistic but possible model.Quintin Terrantino ,the US director. delt
with this in Pulp Fiction.He sees vast discontinuities in space and time that
implode unexpectadly upon linear events causing unplanned outcomes.He would
suggest in his new film that remote and semmingly minor side plots skew the
effects of events far beyond what any probability table could produce.

I recall in college studying statistics, and believing at that time that such
models were more descriptive of individual realities than I now think they are.
For the purposes of large scale things like insurance companies, I guess they
are. The ststistical assumption is that if there is a 1 in 3 chance of a
happening, a 1 in 5 of b happening, and 1 in 10 of c happening;the odds of all 3
occuring simultaneously is the mutiple of the denominators, 3x5 x10=150. In my
own life, I have seen such odds come up more than the probability would assume.
Do you recall the 3 helicopters that failed when President Carter attempted to
rescue the Americans who were hostage in Iran in late 70s? That was a prime
example, and many more exist in history like Jefferson and Adams both dying on
the same day exactly 50 years after the signing of Declaration of Independence.
And personally, you and your wife last summer had the experience of accidentally
running over a turtle at about the time the biker got killed. What causes such
syncronistic events can be a subject for debate; but the fact that improbable
things happen to me is beyond doubt.

Happy holidays to you and all,
Tom


   ----- Original Message -----
   From: William
   To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Thursday, December 24, 2009 3:14 PM
   Subject: [existlist] Re: Arms for who





   --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "louise" <hecubatoher@...> wrote:
   >
   > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@> wrote:
   > >
   > >
   > >
   > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
   > > >
   > > > Louise, if the cause of an experience is open to interpretation, this
merely means the cause is uncertain, not that a cause is non-existent. I
disagree with your statement, because it's absolute. There are some experiences
with clear causes. If you mean contemplative experience only, you might have a
point. I bracketed Dennett and Nietzsche together for one reason only--they
agree that the free exercise of will is determined by or evolution or fortunate
organization.. That's how I see it. Mary
   > > >
   > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "louise" <hecubatoher@> wrote:
   > > > >
   > > > > Mary,
   > > > >
   > > > > My disagreement with you here is stark. I know that my experiences are
not caused, because they are interpreted. The way in which you state your own
position makes it very hard to get any kind of purchase on what we are allegedly
discussing. The fact that you have bracketed together Dennett and Nietzsche also
brings me to a full stop. In any case, I felt I had to say something, and
continue to wait and see if any further avenues open up. At the list or in my
mind.
   > > > >
   > > > > Louise
   > > >Bill to louise. I must do my best for Our dying spreads of failure.
Failure is an optiopn but a terminal one. Everybody knows that . Arms for who
might negate so what is next? Bill
   > >
   > Bill, It is not failure that calls, but nihilism, a kind of doorway through
which I am stepping, where religious presuppositions and an overly political
conception of power fall off and are left behind. In one of his jottings for
'Will to Power', Nietzsche relates that 'Schopenhauer's basic misunderstanding
of the will (as if craving, instinct, drive were the essence* of will) is
typical ... the will is precisely that which treats cravings as their master and
appoints to them their way and measure' [84. Spring - Fall 1887].
   > Clear perception and single resolve, open to the wider reality which is a
society of people at a particular point in history, moving always onward, are
our only recourse, whether the questions are directed toward noumenal reality,
or, for instance, the presented and concealed facts of geopolitics and trade. I
find myself in a battle for the most precise language available, not believing
us to be merely 'products' of our families, schooling and national institutions.
Nietzsche is rare even among philosophers - I think he can provide insight and
perspective that extends far into the future. At times the weight of feeling
myself to be witness to gradual disintegration of cherished particularities, the
crumbling of modest national pride, becomes unbearable, and I grope forward in a
blank space, looking for the pattern which guarantees rebirth from the visible
multiple deaths. Guarantees? I do have a trust in the necessity of things.
Contrary dreams lie motionless, gone, the times change inexorably, immediate
feeling is crushed and a longer vista is demanded, as though survival depended
on the perception of continuity. My thought is slow, slow, labouring like the
early evening bus through thickly falling snow - today I travelled into town and
purchased a ski jacket in the sale. The young men in the shop were
gentle-mannered, pleasant, and as I sat on the bus remembering them, it seemed a
form of continuity, renewed reflection of Blake's perception of our own, the
English, 'mildest of Eden's sons'. What of philosophic continuity, the
importance of ideas? They are kept alive by individuals, who are the stronger
for mutual contact - such belief keeps me at this group. Louise
   >
   Louise, I am attempting to discern what sort of person this Polly might be. As
I do not know if it is male or female and it holds forth with a strident
certitude that smacks of post modernist jargon,I will reserve opinion until it
says something tangible.
   Someone mentioned billard caroms as a model for situational reality and that
seems a simplistic but possible model.Quintin Terrantino ,the US director. delt
with this in Pulp Fiction.He sees vast discontinuities in space and time that
implode unexpectadly upon linear events causing unplanned outcomes.He would
suggest in his new film that remote and semmingly minor side plots skew the
effects of events far beyond what any probability table could produce.In fiction
one can use a temporal matrix and construct an A to B to C procession of events
that a good Hegelian could enjoy.Terrantino shatters that handy model in Pulp
Fiction and broadens the scope of the chaos in his new film Inglorious basterds.
He detests linear topography and uses misrepresentation of the deceased Aldo Ray
to present his anti, hero . Terantino reminds me of Neitche in his detestation
of prior thought patterns. Aldo Ray was a real UDT frogman and killed the
Japanese on Guam, he later became the poster boy for the good troop who came
home to people the bland ,plastic world of 1950`s suburban America. That bothers
Terantino who creates an Aldo Ray who scalps nazi and demands 100 scalps from
every soldier under his command. Those who cannot be scalped are marked by
cutting a swastica in their foreheads. It all ties togeather in a most ungainly
package in a reality where the real Aldo Ray who killed with a knife and came
home to three divorces . Terantino presents that reality is chaotic of necessity
and only our minds provide the missing structure. That in itself seems most
existential and much like the wild world of FN. FN and Terrantino are bomb
throwers And they do not need Polly`s mind glitch to explain a disorderly and
insane world. God is dead and so is Aldo Ray.Bill





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

*The Madman.* -- Have you ever heard of the madman who on a bright morning
lighted a lantern and ran to the market-place calling out unceasingly: "I seek
God!  I seek God!" -- As there were many people standing about who did not
believe in God, he caused a great deal of amusement.  Why?  is he lost?  said
one.  Has he strayed away like a child? said another.  Or does he keep himself
hidden?  Is he afraid of us?  Has he taken a sea-voyage?  Has he emigrated? --
The people called out laughingly, all in  a hubbub.  The insane man jumped into
their midst and transfixed them with his glances.  "Where is God gone?" he
called out.  "I mean to tell you!  *We have killed him,* -- you and I!  We are
all his murderers!  But how have we done it?  How were we able to drink up the
sea?  Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the whole horizon?  What did we do
when we loosened this earth from its sun?  Whither does it now move?  Whither do
we move?  Away from all suns?  Do we not dash on unceasingly?  Backwards,
sideways, forewards, in all directions?  Is there still an above and below?  Do
we not stray, as through an infinite nothingness?  Does not empty space breathe
upon us?  Has it not become colder?  Does not night come on continually, darker
and darker?  Shall we not have to light lanterns in the morning?  Do we not hear
the noise of the grave-diggers who are burying God?  Do we not smell the divine
putrefaction?  -- for even Gods putrefy!  God is dead!  God remains dead!  And
we have killed him!  How shall we console ourselves, the most murderous of all
murderers?  The holiest and the mightiest that the world has hitherto possessed
has bled to death under our knife,
-- who will wipe the blood from us?  With what water could we cleanse ourselves?
What lustrums, what sacred games shall we have to devise?  Is not the magnitude
of this deed too great for us?  Shall we not ourselves have to become Gods,
merely to seem worthy of it?  There never was a greater event, -- and on account
of it, all who are born after us belong to a higher history than any history
hitherto!"  -- Here the madman was silent and looked again at his hearers; they
also were silent and looked at him in surprise.  At last he threw his lantern on
the ground, so tha it broke in pieces and was extinguished.  "I come too early,"
he then said, "I am not yet at the right time."  This prodigious event is still
on its way, and is travelling, -- it has not yet reached men's ears.  Lightning
and thunder need time, the light of the stars needs time, even after they are
done, to be seen and heard.  This deed is as yet further from them than the
furthest star, -- *and yet they have done it!*
-- It is further stated that the madman made his way into different churches on
the same day, and there intoned his *Requiem aeternam deo*.  When led out and
called to account, he always gave the reply: "What are these churches now, if
they are not the tombs and monuments of God?" --

"The Joyful Wisdom", III, 125.  Tr. Thomas Common.

The people, I think, fall silent because, having heard the madman, they
recognise the enormity of what he is saying, or at least that he has something
to be serious about.  Nietzsche's seriousness about God is evident as an
undercurrent throughout TSZ, and is matched by his seriousness about the
ubermensch, the overman (or superman) - see 'Zarathustra's Prologue', 4, and
this passage from the end of the book:

-- God's woe is deeper, you strange world!  Reach out for God's woe, not for me!
What am I?  An intoxicated, sweet lyre - a midnight lyre, a croaking bell which
no one understands but which has* to speak before deaf people, you Higher Men! 
For you do not understand me! --

'The Intoxicated Song', 8.  Tr. R.J.Hollingdale.

In our own time, it is distinctly possible that God is undergoing something of a
revival, amongst intellectuals as amongst the common people, and more may crowd
into the tombs and monuments of God.  It  may seem the case that no one has yet
managed to kill off God effectively, but it is not so - the deed has been done,
and the light is still bringing its impact.  And so I repent of my own,
premature and impertinent, attempt to deflect from the overman (in my post to
Polly, 50067).  I can see no other response, to the passing of the metaphysical
world, than self-overcoming.  And what is self-overcoming, but Will to Power?

Are birth and death the same, that they both bring light?

Louise

Louise, that last post was a bit of a change for you. In FN`s day he was not the
first to throw down theism. The Russian poets and writers had been forced by the
crushing terror of World Wars and revolution to deny a just god. Fodor
Doestyefski turned me with The Brothers Karamatzov. I read that monster twice
and came away with a real feeling of dread. We were locked in the cold war and
Vietnam was raging as the religous slime just wrung their hands as their god
just turned its back. I had little regard for the Judeo Christian notion of god
so I cursed it and walked away. That was forty years ago and I have no regrets.
I have never switched back even though I have paid many prices for my rebellion.
Today I heard a recent music release by a boy toy teenie bopper blasting out the
theme that there are no atheists in fox holes, there are no atheists in
hospital, and god should be everywhere. I set through it  and revisited your
post. I have been an athiest in a fox hole, I have been an athiest in hospital 
and if her god is everywhere he approximates the Higgs Boson more than the
christian diety.
Unlike you I have little chance of reverting to a god fearing posture, I have
plenty of real things to fear. I make no attempt to understand the forces that
have built your philosophical ediface. I just note a change in demeanor and am
interested in whatever metamorphosis may emerge. Be well and enjoy our times.
Bill

Bill.

You said  "Louise, that last post was a bit of a change for you. In FN`s day he
was not the first to throw down theism. The Russian poets and writers had been
forced by the crushing terror of World Wars and revolution to deny a just god"
  Nietzsche died in 1900, and the first world war and the Russian revolution 
wasn't until the teens; so I can't see how you can mention them as throwing down
theism before Nietzsche. I also think Nietzsche did all his writing before the
late1880s as I think his last 12 years were spent mad in confinement. Maybe I
misunderstood you.

In any case happy new year,
Tom
Tom
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: William
   To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 3:11 PM
   Subject: [existlist] Seasonal encounters



   Louise, that last post was a bit of a change for you. In FN`s day he was not
the first to throw down theism. The Russian poets and writers had been forced by
the crushing terror of World Wars and revolution to deny a just god. Fodor
Doestyefski turned me with The Brothers Karamatzov. I read that monster twice
and came away with a real feeling of dread. We were locked in the cold war and
Vietnam was raging as the religous slime just wrung their hands as their god
just turned its back. I had little regard for the Judeo Christian notion of god
so I cursed it and walked away. That was forty years ago and I have no regrets.
I have never switched back even though I have paid many prices for my rebellion.
Today I heard a recent music release by a boy toy teenie bopper blasting out the
theme that there are no atheists in fox holes, there are no atheists in
hospital, and god should be everywhere. I set through it and revisited your
post. I have been an athiest in a fox hole, I have been an athiest in hospital
and if her god is everywhere he approximates the Higgs Boson more than the
christian diety.
   Unlike you I have little chance of reverting to a god fearing posture, I have
plenty of real things to fear. I make no attempt to understand the forces that
have built your philosophical ediface. I just note a change in demeanor and am
interested in whatever metamorphosis may emerge. Be well and enjoy our times.
Bill





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

And indeed,Tom, it should be read as anacronism but was meant in a broader
vista. I do not know if Louise is veering in her view of a god. She has spoken
of being a calvanist and I was a forced catholic . The russians were bent and
bracketed into their nihilism  by the failure of the TZars and  the brutality of
communism. I used the Viet Nam war as an example of a political failure to
discourage me from Rome. I would have better stated that FN was not the first
atheist . When a system just fails I think it must be examined. Capitalism  is
such a system and I hear much about its failure. As I climb aboard that Delta
jet Will I have great faith  in the corporation to take me safe and
secure.Besides I do not want to insult a British Subject just berore  going to a
British island. I am trying to curb my disgust at the terrorist madmen who will
cause me to be Ex rayed,puffed upon, searched, questioned and in many ways
discomforted.
It will be insignificant  to northern man to hold his terratory. It is happening
in Europe as it is in the US, the blond head blue eyed are being invaded and out
reproduced by the brown peoples. The most recent estimation of population growth
is in that southern brown world. Nine billion is just way too many. I will not
live long enough to people that cateclism. That little boy toy singer can call
on her god but it will not help. I think we have all but outlived our time. Give
it to the cockroaches for a few hundred million years. Bill

Bill,

I have read that at the beginning of the 20th century,most thinkers were very
optimistic that technology was going to produce a century in which the dreams of
man flourished, and in which scarcities which had been the causes of wars had
been eliminated. Two world wars certainly disproved those earlier, optimistic
assumptions; and to what extent the evolving technology was more likely to
create a utopia, and to what extent it was likely to make the world even more
hellish with new found powers of destruction was up in th air. Einstein said our
technology has exceeded our humanity.

As for third world people breeding at a much higher rate, it is interesting that
as third world countries become industrialized the birth rate automatically
drops off. The down side of that is that one citizen of an industrialized
country has as large a carbon imprint as many third world citizens.

Peace,
Tom
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: William
   To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 5:32 PM
   Subject: [existlist] Ah Ha



   And indeed,Tom, it should be read as anacronism but was meant in a broader
vista. I do not know if Louise is veering in her view of a god. She has spoken
of being a calvanist and I was a forced catholic . The russians were bent and
bracketed into their nihilism by the failure of the TZars and the brutality of
communism. I used the Viet Nam war as an example of a political failure to
discourage me from Rome. I would have better stated that FN was not the first
atheist . When a system just fails I think it must be examined. Capitalism is
such a system and I hear much about its failure. As I climb aboard that Delta
jet Will I have great faith in the corporation to take me safe and
secure.Besides I do not want to insult a British Subject just berore going to a
British island. I am trying to curb my disgust at the terrorist madmen who will
cause me to be Ex rayed,puffed upon, searched, questioned and in many ways
discomforted.
   It will be insignificant to northern man to hold his terratory. It is
happening in Europe as it is in the US, the blond head blue eyed are being
invaded and out reproduced by the brown peoples. The most recent estimation of
population growth is in that southern brown world. Nine billion is just way too
many. I will not live long enough to people that cateclism. That little boy toy
singer can call on her god but it will not help. I think we have all but
outlived our time. Give it to the cockroaches for a few hundred million years.
Bill





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tom, I do not think all those brown eyed handsome people will undergo
industrialisation. It is too great a knot to be cut. There are some interesting
generation deflation studies. If children beget children there are not enough
adult minds to retain order,the prolitariate of children is not a beneficial
occurance to me. Look at the number of fifteen year olds in islamic  countries.
There are very few control mechanisms beside Jahaad effecting this volatile mob.
Perhaps we should further radicalise Islam while it is regionalised.
Extermination in situ may be inevitable. It seems the robots reverse the terror 
but that comes from the older ones  as to the young it is just another
bombing,another way to die. So who will make a whole world inititive of our
brave,impersonal bombing. I do not think it can be sold especially to a fifteen
year old father.
  I can see the western way of progression through this blockage of progress . Do
not ask me to sign on, too many are pulling off axis . The axis should be a
centering position and thus some agreement need be found. Bill

Bill,

You might be right, but there has certainly been much industrialization in my
lifetime. Hell, I remember when "made in Japan" implied something was cheap but
shoddy. All that changed in the 70s, and globalization has resulted in factories
being built in many third world countries.

Tom
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: William
   To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 7:14 PM
   Subject: [existlist] Ah Ha



   Tom, I do not think all those brown eyed handsome people will undergo
industrialisation. It is too great a knot to be cut. There are some interesting
generation deflation studies. If children beget children there are not enough
adult minds to retain order,the prolitariate of children is not a beneficial
occurance to me. Look at the number of fifteen year olds in islamic countries.
There are very few control mechanisms beside Jahaad effecting this volatile mob.
   Perhaps we should further radicalise Islam while it is regionalised.
Extermination in situ may be inevitable. It seems the robots reverse the terror
but that comes from the older ones as to the young it is just another
bombing,another way to die. So who will make a whole world inititive of our
brave,impersonal bombing. I do not think it can be sold especially to a fifteen
year old father.
   I can see the western way of progression through this blockage of progress .
Do not ask me to sign on, too many are pulling off axis . The axis should be a
centering position and thus some agreement need be found. Bill





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In this area the only population growth comes in hispanic groups.  It is easy to
see that the powers that be are not happy with a further increase in latinos.
Agriculture and insurance are attempting to supress further immigration and
construction is being limited in an attempt to keep from increasing latino 
immigration.
  The catholic church continues to forbid birth control  and so the latinos keep
breeding. The usual trend of educated peoples to limit  numbers of children
takes place more slowly in latinos  because their women remain  under  the rule
of the priests. The immigrant irish had this same problem and it took many
generations to overcome the problem.
  With big machine agriculture there is little stoop labor  to give jobs to
hispanics. They are going back south as it is difficult to survive up here
without big cars and stout housing. I see the poor, small mexicans struggling to
keep their clunkers running and their substandard housing warm. This is still
big man land and the fewer remaining blue eyes are  making it difficult for the
small people to survive. I do not see this state promoting industrial expansion
to employ the hispanics. The catholic church, long suspect by the protestant
powers that be, is badly discredited by the sex scandals. Revelotionary priests
are definitely not welcome nor are huge families of welfare children. Pork
production and packing house  work have declined and federal immigration raids
have further discouraged hispanic progress. It becomes more easy to discern the
anglo conspiracy to keep it white in Iowa. I understand this is a small place
but  in a monkey see,monkey do world, others wiil have their versions of the
plan.
  Now back to the 9 billion population debacle. The reason I do not think we will
see industrialisation of the third world is because the governments of such
countries are weak and easily corrupted by religous,radical cadre. Look at the
huge wealth of Iraq that remains unexploted because of political instability. In
the places without great resources the only product will be Jahaad and whoesale
death. Industries will not grow there, the masses will not have jobs,hell only
the proscribed will have food.
So, I think food must come with population controls. If you do not use birth
control you do not eat. Ask the Chinese how draconian this must become. Young
people from the developing countries ,especially twenty to thirty year olds will
not be able to get visas to first world countries. A few, very secure  twenty
year olds  will get educational visas but they will be closely monitored.
Immigration of the illiterate will all but stop and visas  to the poor and
illiterate will be rare.
  Lots of people will starve and bloody revolutions will be put down with deadly
force. The news will be censored  so do gooder factions in the modern world will
be clueless as to the plight of the poor,in the south. Weapons will be traded
for drugs as the peasants kill and bomb each othet and the cubies in the north
get high on schedual.
  Sound good, not to me but give me an alternative that is reasonable. This
population bomb is going to explode and I do not wish to be killed by the flying
chunks. Bill

Bill.

As Dickens wrote,"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times". As
Einstein wrote "Our technology has exceeded our humanity". As I wrote



Tossing and Turning

Tossing and turning, waking up from a long slumber.

Getting hip to being more than just a number.

Getting hip to trees being more than just lumber.

Rising and falling, starting and stalling.

Is it the New Age or Armageddon, that we hear calling?

Groovy man

by the Cool Cat

www.thecoolcat.net

In any case, emerging science and technology is rapidly making everything
possible. A hundred years from now, someone in your income range will probably
be able to father genetically designed  children with sharp minds, coodinated
bodies and Hollywood looks. The codes that turn on the aging process may be able
to be disengaged etc. Of course as in the fairy tales, the classical myth is the
acquisition of powers without increases in accompanying wisdom to use it well.
Our best hope is that through one method or another, such wisom increases.

Happy New Year to us all,

Tom

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: William
   To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:20 AM
   Subject: [existlist] ah ha



   In this area the only population growth comes in hispanic groups. It is easy
to see that the powers that be are not happy with a further increase in latinos.
Agriculture and insurance are attempting to supress further immigration and
construction is being limited in an attempt to keep from increasing latino
immigration.
   The catholic church continues to forbid birth control and so the latinos keep
breeding. The usual trend of educated peoples to limit numbers of children takes
place more slowly in latinos because their women remain under the rule of the
priests. The immigrant irish had this same problem and it took many generations
to overcome the problem.
   With big machine agriculture there is little stoop labor to give jobs to
hispanics. They are going back south as it is difficult to survive up here
without big cars and stout housing. I see the poor, small mexicans struggling to
keep their clunkers running and their substandard housing warm. This is still
big man land and the fewer remaining blue eyes are making it difficult for the
small people to survive. I do not see this state promoting industrial expansion
to employ the hispanics. The catholic church, long suspect by the protestant
powers that be, is badly discredited by the sex scandals. Revelotionary priests
are definitely not welcome nor are huge families of welfare children. Pork
production and packing house work have declined and federal immigration raids
have further discouraged hispanic progress. It becomes more easy to discern the
anglo conspiracy to keep it white in Iowa. I understand this is a small place
but in a monkey see,monkey do world, others wiil have their versions of the
plan.
   Now back to the 9 billion population debacle. The reason I do not think we
will see industrialisation of the third world is because the governments of such
countries are weak and easily corrupted by religous,radical cadre. Look at the
huge wealth of Iraq that remains unexploted because of political instability. In
the places without great resources the only product will be Jahaad and whoesale
death. Industries will not grow there, the masses will not have jobs,hell only
the proscribed will have food.
   So, I think food must come with population controls. If you do not use birth
control you do not eat. Ask the Chinese how draconian this must become. Young
people from the developing countries ,especially twenty to thirty year olds will
not be able to get visas to first world countries. A few, very secure twenty
year olds will get educational visas but they will be closely monitored.
Immigration of the illiterate will all but stop and visas to the poor and
illiterate will be rare.
   Lots of people will starve and bloody revolutions will be put down with deadly
force. The news will be censored so do gooder factions in the modern world will
be clueless as to the plight of the poor,in the south. Weapons will be traded
for drugs as the peasants kill and bomb each othet and the cubies in the north
get high on schedual.
   Sound good, not to me but give me an alternative that is reasonable. This
population bomb is going to explode and I do not wish to be killed by the flying
chunks. Bill





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
>
> Bill.
>
> As Dickens wrote,"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times". As
Einstein wrote "Our technology has exceeded our humanity". As I wrote
>
>
>
> Tossing and Turning
>
> Tossing and turning, waking up from a long slumber.
>
> Getting hip to being more than just a number.
>
> Getting hip to trees being more than just lumber.
>
> Rising and falling, starting and stalling.
>
> Is it the New Age or Armageddon, that we hear calling?
>
> Groovy man
>
> by the Cool Cat
>
> www.thecoolcat.net
>
> In any case, emerging science and technology is rapidly making everything
possible. A hundred years from now, someone in your income range will probably
be able to father genetically designed  children with sharp minds, coodinated
bodies and Hollywood looks. The codes that turn on the aging process may be able
to be disengaged etc. Of course as in the fairy tales, the classical myth is the
acquisition of powers without increases in accompanying wisdom to use it well.
Our best hope is that through one method or another, such wisom increases.
>
> Happy New Year to us all,
>
> Tom
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: William
>   To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:20 AM
>   Subject: [existlist] ah ha
>
> Wisdom is another of those magic words that harken back to christian goodness.
I find it hugely suspect. So what does this wise person do in appreciation of
the acolade, wise man? Does he invest successfully,marry up, join the Rotary,eat
a balanced diet,limit his population?Please tell me why I should care about what
happens 100 years after my demise. I do not think there is anything besides
short term pragmatism. I do not see any reason for an atheistic existentialist
to desire children ,perfect or not. All the christian family bull shit was just
a ruse to keep you giving to the queer priests. The only thing that makes any
sense is to have a long comfortable existance, all the rest is just the
propaganda of the others.
  Now if this wisdom is the ability to understand that disobediance of law will
lead to apprehension and punishment, I climb on board. Ethics are as useless as
morality but obedience to the law is a pragmatism some might call wisdom. I like
pragmatism and would choose it long before wisdom. Wisdom is for dead guys. Bill
>
>   In this area the only population growth comes in hispanic groups. It is easy
to see that the powers that be are not happy with a further increase in latinos.
Agriculture and insurance are attempting to supress further immigration and
construction is being limited in an attempt to keep from increasing latino
immigration.
>   The catholic church continues to forbid birth control and so the latinos
keep breeding. The usual trend of educated peoples to limit numbers of children
takes place more slowly in latinos because their women remain under the rule of
the priests. The immigrant irish had this same problem and it took many
generations to overcome the problem.
>   With big machine agriculture there is little stoop labor to give jobs to
hispanics. They are going back south as it is difficult to survive up here
without big cars and stout housing. I see the poor, small mexicans struggling to
keep their clunkers running and their substandard housing warm. This is still
big man land and the fewer remaining blue eyes are making it difficult for the
small people to survive. I do not see this state promoting industrial expansion
to employ the hispanics. The catholic church, long suspect by the protestant
powers that be, is badly discredited by the sex scandals. Revelotionary priests
are definitely not welcome nor are huge families of welfare children. Pork
production and packing house work have declined and federal immigration raids
have further discouraged hispanic progress. It becomes more easy to discern the
anglo conspiracy to keep it white in Iowa. I understand this is a small place
but in a monkey see,monkey do world, others wiil have their versions of the
plan.
>   Now back to the 9 billion population debacle. The reason I do not think we
will see industrialisation of the third world is because the governments of such
countries are weak and easily corrupted by religous,radical cadre. Look at the
huge wealth of Iraq that remains unexploted because of political instability. In
the places without great resources the only product will be Jahaad and whoesale
death. Industries will not grow there, the masses will not have jobs,hell only
the proscribed will have food.
>   So, I think food must come with population controls. If you do not use birth
control you do not eat. Ask the Chinese how draconian this must become. Young
people from the developing countries ,especially twenty to thirty year olds will
not be able to get visas to first world countries. A few, very secure twenty
year olds will get educational visas but they will be closely monitored.
Immigration of the illiterate will all but stop and visas to the poor and
illiterate will be rare.
>   Lots of people will starve and bloody revolutions will be put down with
deadly force. The news will be censored so do gooder factions in the modern
world will be clueless as to the plight of the poor,in the south. Weapons will
be traded for drugs as the peasants kill and bomb each othet and the cubies in
the north get high on schedual.
>   Sound good, not to me but give me an alternative that is reasonable. This
population bomb is going to explode and I do not wish to be killed by the flying
chunks. Bill
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hi gang,

I'm back from having been away. Had good times with my children, and
consumed many a bottle of festive cheer in the process. That simple and
indubitable fact, that consuming a glass, let alone a bottle, of certain
liquids alters one's mood, led to writing this post.

A cursory search on Google soon reveals that the seminal existentialist
thinkers Nietzsche and Sartre were no strangers to the use of mind-altering
drugs. I don't care about that one hoot. What baffles me is their blindness
to the dichotomy between the nebulous freedom to transcend conditionality
they insist on, and their reliance on the fully determined effects of
specific chemicals to experience such "freedom".

All constructive comments are welcomed.

Polly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Louise,

2009/12/24 louise <hecubatoher@...>

> --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Herman <hhofmeister@...> wrote:
>
> [Louise] Freedom does not require the subject to be self-regarding in the
> way you imply, by using the phrase, "made to happen".  If the subject
> succeeds in not interfering with the natural process of which one is part,
> whether consciously or not, it is at its most free.  This typically requires
> the spontaneity of an uncorrupted nature, or else sustained resolve.
>
> [Polly] Ahh, I see. You use freedom in the sense of "freedom from....."
>
> No, "freedom from" is not what I mean.  At least I am discovering in what
> ways my statements are misunderstood.
>

Just to clarify why I wrote what I wrote. Your usage "uncorrupted" suggested
being free from/of corruption to me.

Very happy to be wrong in that reading, of course ......


Polly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi William,

2009/12/25 William <v.valleywestdental@...>

> >
> Louise, I am attempting to discern what sort of person this Polly might be.
> As I do not know if it is male or female and it holds forth with a strident
> certitude that smacks of post modernist jargon,I will reserve opinion until
> it says something tangible.
>

Typically, whatever you will end up opining will be in the continuum fight,
flight or f*ck.

Ahhhh, such freedom.

Polly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Herman <hhofmeister@...> wrote:
>
> Hi gang,
>
> I'm back from having been away. Had good times with my children, and
> consumed many a bottle of festive cheer in the process. That simple and
> indubitable fact, that consuming a glass, let alone a bottle, of certain
> liquids alters one's mood, led to writing this post.
>
> A cursory search on Google soon reveals that the seminal existentialist
> thinkers Nietzsche and Sartre were no strangers to the use of mind-altering
> drugs. I don't care about that one hoot. What baffles me is their blindness
> to the dichotomy between the nebulous freedom to transcend conditionality
> they insist on, and their reliance on the fully determined effects of
> specific chemicals to experience such "freedom".
>
> All constructive comments are welcomed.
>
> Polly

Polly,  With you I have tended to display my characteristic habit of
recklessness and caution, in addressing the questions arising.  A too ready
trust in the compatibility of approach to shared reading matter has left me
stating the case as I see it too timidly.  Bill was right to point out that my
most recent post represents something of a change for me, and in his comment
about your 'strident certitude', he has identified the kind of obstacle I find
in your remarks above, to anything truly constructive by way of response.  You
are so sure, after all, in the way you handle the terminology - the "fully
determined effects" that share the sentence with "freedom".  My own shift in
perception requires that I live the newness of idea that has come to me, and
then see if I can communicate, thereafter.  I have been trying to argue from
memory, somewhat, of late, memory of existence, that is, which is not
existential.  Nietzsche was certainly existential, and you write about his work
as though you were a teacher capable of assessing a student.  Seems to me,
anyway.  A life is not so easy to apprehend.  Nietzsche's ideas are completely
useless if divorced from their existential quality.  Or, as he put it himself,
unless you suffer from the same passion, you will not understand me...  Louise

--- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Herman <hhofmeister@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Louise,
>
> 2009/12/24 louise <hecubatoher@...>
>
> > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Herman <hhofmeister@> wrote:
> >
> > [Louise] Freedom does not require the subject to be self-regarding in the
> > way you imply, by using the phrase, "made to happen".  If the subject
> > succeeds in not interfering with the natural process of which one is part,
> > whether consciously or not, it is at its most free.  This typically requires
> > the spontaneity of an uncorrupted nature, or else sustained resolve.
> >
> > [Polly] Ahh, I see. You use freedom in the sense of "freedom from....."
> >
> > No, "freedom from" is not what I mean.  At least I am discovering in what
> > ways my statements are misunderstood.
> >
>
> Just to clarify why I wrote what I wrote. Your usage "uncorrupted" suggested
> being free from/of corruption to me.
>

Yes, if one is corrupted, to become freed of corruption is a good thing.  I was
writing, however, about "freedom for", whether this occurs in the happiest form,
or in the toughness of resolve required when opposition internal or external
creates a battle.  I realise now that battle is too close to me for reliable
comment.  The whole point of attempting philosophic communication may be over
now, for me.  L.


> Very happy to be wrong in that reading, of course ......
>
>
> Polly
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Fight or flight does not mediate a reproductive function. The former is
primarily an adrenal function with the latter sexual functions ruled by a host
of other hormones. I am however familar with that auckward grouping in running,
sexual combat school. It is similar to the Polly habit of  blundering over
topics to introduce polysyllabic chaos to the conversation.
We learned in school that running and fighting can go togeather but the sex
part, like Polly`s posts, just does not fit in.
  So, Herman why don`t you write something and we might read it. We might comment
on it,or we might not. Your lance like verbal strikes are probably only a
prelude to the exclamation of your genius. Hold forth,Bill

Oh thank you polly,the cold was closing in.
But you came with your proboscus up the goop shute.
  Now I strut before your gates and bellow, Hector------Hector-------Hector.
Bill{AKA Achilles}

To anyone interested,

A life is not so easy to apprehend.


I agree. All that is present is a stream of phenomena; if there is any
apprehension of that, it occurs at another level, there I say in another
domain. Did Nietzsche apprehend his own life?



>  Nietzsche's ideas are completely useless if divorced from their
> existential quality.  Or, as he put it himself, unless you suffer from the
> same passion, you will not understand me...


In the vein of my contribution re the chemical nature of reality, this would
translate into, unless you used the same drugs I used, you will not
understand what I have written. And I would agree with that sentiment.

Polly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To anyone interested,

2009/12/31 William <v.valleywestdental@...>

> Fight or flight does not mediate a reproductive function. The former is
> primarily an adrenal function with the latter sexual functions ruled by a
> host of other hormones.


You seem to be in agreement with the general thrust of my statements re the
chemical nature of reality.

Polly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Tom and all,

2009/12/30 tom <tsmith17_midsouth1@...>:
> Bill.
>
> In any case, emerging science and technology is rapidly making everything
possible.

Yes, indeed.

> A hundred years from now, someone in your income range will probably be able
to father >genetically designed  children with sharp minds, coodinated bodies
and Hollywood looks. >The codes that turn on the aging process may be able to be
disengaged etc. Of course as >in the fairy tales, the classical myth is the
acquisition of powers without increases in >accompanying wisdom to use it well.

Total agreement.  For Christs and Buddhas, their insights arose as
culminations of ethical perfection, yet these days DMT is synthesised
in a lab, and available to all and sundry. Same chemicals, different
source. The brain rewards wisdom and insight, the drug user only needs
money.

You might be interested in the following:

"A psychedelic experience is a journey to new realms of consciousness.
The scope and content of the experience is limitless, but its
characteristic features are the transcendence of verbal concepts, of
space-time dimensions, and of the ego or identity. Such experiences of
enlarged consciousness can occur in a variety of ways: sensory
deprivation, yoga exercises, disciplined meditation, religious or
aesthetic ecstasies, or spontaneously. Most recently they have become
available to anyone through the ingestion of psychedelic drugs such as
LSD, Psilocybin, DMT, etc.

You must be ready to accept the possibility that there is a limitless
range of awareness for which we now have no words; that awareness can
expand beyond the range of your ego, your self, your familiar
identity, beyond everything you have learned, beyond your notions of
space and time, beyond the differences which usually separate people
from each other and from the world around them.

You must remember that throughout human history, millions have made
this voyage. A few (whom we call mystics, saints or Buddhas) have made
this experience endure and have communicated it to their fellow men.
You must remember, too, that the experience is safe, at the very
worst, you will end up the same person who entered the experience, and
that all of the dangers which you have feared are unnecessary
productions of your own mind."

-Timothy Leary


> Our best hope is that through one method or another, such wisdom increases.

You have my vote, Tom. As an aside, I trust that wisdom will not ever
come pre-fabricated from a lab, for the insane to rectify :-)
themselves with in the form of a suppository, or otherwise.

>
> Happy New Year to us all,
>

Hear hear hear.


Polly

As I am a survivor of the most psychotropic  generation in modern history I find
it interisting to look back and see what was learned  and what was just
recreation. I am certainly not opposed to recreation but to agree with Leary
that it is all harmless is to refuse the basic tenants of pharmachology. Drugs
have side effects, some side effects are neutral and benign  but some are
harmful  and dangerous. Dr Leary made the decision that deleterous side effects
were worth the drug experience. That is a very non scientific opinion put
forward by a social revolutionary . That he disgraced his PHD in order to 
forward his psychoterrorist agenda is despicable.
Timothy Leary is dead .
He was a twisted egoist and failed cultist. He did not have the huge talent of
John Lennon or the huge courage of John Kennedy.
Timothy Leary is dead.
  He made the horrible mistake that his enemies were guilty of committing.  He
did not  respect the power of the substances  he used.   He took the warped
realities of his trips and attempted to order normal life with his
hallucinations.
  Timothy Leary is dead.
  LSD was widely used in post graduate  society. I knew many of the young doctors
and listened to their experiences. There were many, many bad outcomes and we
will never know how much damage  was done to the rational body of knowledge. I
contend post modernism with it`s emphysis on deconstruction and correctness
could be a side effect of LSD intoxication.
  Timothy Leary is dead. Good riddance! Bill

Happy New Year Herman,

We r pretty much on the same page;however, I also read a quote by Leary in which
he described what he considered the 3 significant factors that affect the
quality and direction of a psychedelic experience. In addition to the dosage, he
also lists set and setting. Set refers to the mindset the person has at the time
of the dose, and setting refers to the surroundings and people that are present.
Leary said the most advantageous use of a trip is to imprint new realities in
our psyche; but that unfortunately people often trip with the same people in the
same surroundings, and reimprint the old imprints even deeper. I don't deny
Bill's claim that some people have been harmed by psychedelics;but from my
experiences and observations I believe psychedelics are much less likely to
cause problems than booze as well as most pharmecuticals. I have never
personally known a person harmed by psychedelics;but I knew of a guy who jumped
out a window to his death. Psychedelic experiences allows people to become more
aware of their desires; and I'd guess suicide was one of his.

Certainly, the emergence of psychedelics in the 60s was a very big factor in the
music, styles, interest in eastern religions and the occult etc.

Bill said in his most recent post of Leary.

"He did not have the huge talent of John Lennon or the huge courage of John
Kennedy".

Obviously, Leary like most of us did not have the musical abilities of Lennon.
However,  psychedelic experiences were a big factor in much of Lennon's songs
from the "Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band" to songs like "Imagine" and
"Working Class Hero" etc.As for courage, Leary scaled a high fence at 50 years
of age to escape prison, and his refusal to desist from his psychedelic
experiments cost him his Harvard professorship.

ALTERED STATES OF MIND

The happiest days of my life have been spent in altered states of mind, that
made me feel divine.

But later when I came down to earth, I realized to relational reality it also
made me blind, because I had left duality behind.

But I was having such a good time tripping, that I didn't mind.

GROOVY MAN

www.thecoolcat.net


HAPPY NEW YEAR and best wishes to all
Tom




ALTERED STATES OF MIND
The happiest days of my life have been spent in altered states of mind, that
made me feel Divine.

But later when I came down to Earth; I realized that to relational reality it
also made me blind, because I had left duality behind.

But I was having such a hell of a good time tripping, that I didn't mi

ALTERED STATES OF MIND
The happiest days of my life have been spent in altered states of mind, that
made me feel Divine.

But later when I came down to Earth; I realized that to relational reality it
also made me blind, because I had left duality behind.

But I was having such a hell of a good time tripping, that I didn't



.


ALTERED STATES OF MIND
The happiest days of my life have been spent in altered states of mind, that
made me feel Divine.

But later when I came down to Earth; I realized that to relational reality it
also made me blind, because I had left duality behind.

But I was having such a hell of a good time tripping, that I didn't



   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Herman
   To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 6:34 AM
   Subject: Re: [existlist] ah ha



   Hi Tom and all,

   2009/12/30 tom <tsmith17_midsouth1@...>:
   > Bill.
   >
   > In any case, emerging science and technology is rapidly making everything
possible.

   Yes, indeed.

   > A hundred years from now, someone in your income range will probably be able
to father >genetically designed  children with sharp minds, coodinated bodies
and Hollywood looks. >The codes that turn on the aging process may be able to be
disengaged etc. Of course as >in the fairy tales, the classical myth is the
acquisition of powers without increases in >accompanying wisdom to use it well.

   Total agreement. For Christs and Buddhas, their insights arose as
   culminations of ethical perfection, yet these days DMT is synthesised
   in a lab, and available to all and sundry. Same chemicals, different
   source. The brain rewards wisdom and insight, the drug user only needs
   money.

   You might be interested in the following:

   "A psychedelic experience is a journey to new realms of consciousness.
   The scope and content of the experience is limitless, but its
   characteristic features are the transcendence of verbal concepts, of
   space-time dimensions, and of the ego or identity. Such experiences of
   enlarged consciousness can occur in a variety of ways: sensory
   deprivation, yoga exercises, disciplined meditation, religious or
   aesthetic ecstasies, or spontaneously. Most recently they have become
   available to anyone through the ingestion of psychedelic drugs such as
   LSD, Psilocybin, DMT, etc.

   You must be ready to accept the possibility that there is a limitless
   range of awareness for which we now have no words; that awareness can
   expand beyond the range of your ego, your self, your familiar
   identity, beyond everything you have learned, beyond your notions of
   space and time, beyond the differences which usually separate people
   from each other and from the world around them.

   You must remember that throughout human history, millions have made
   this voyage. A few (whom we call mystics, saints or Buddhas) have made
   this experience endure and have communicated it to their fellow men.
   You must remember, too, that the experience is safe, at the very
   worst, you will end up the same person who entered the experience, and
   that all of the dangers which you have feared are unnecessary
   productions of your own mind."

   -Timothy Leary

   > Our best hope is that through one method or another, such wisdom increases.

   You have my vote, Tom. As an aside, I trust that wisdom will not ever
   come pre-fabricated from a lab, for the insane to rectify :-)
   themselves with in the form of a suppository, or otherwise.

   >
   > Happy New Year to us all,
   >

   Hear hear hear.

   Polly




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

If something bad,scary happens down the rabbit hole you would need be coached to
go underground again. Or you just might get cubed and find yourself in a drug
infested horror.That is what I would experience if I tried to go back and live
in the bars. That others have had sucessful LSD experiences is not suprising.
Drug tolerance builds with time used and dosage increase. Smoking more now but
enjoying it less was a great Madison Ave question . Leary knew that but he
pushed his cult. He deserved  his Harvard defrocking and they should have shot
him on the wire.
  Lennon was said to keep a pint of acid around. That could be considered
excessive. He could have cubed NYC.
  Now JFK was the true drug user. Years and years on opiates for intractable
pain. Good usage, needed usage but build up of untoward effects was a problem.
Speed my man,speed was the only answer. Dr. Robert and his vitamin shot was a
needed guest.
  I listened to Leary when he was popular and then watched his progression to
death. He reminded me of Fidel, an old revolutionary making long,boring
speaches.
  So guys you will not get me on the Remember Tim donation list. What is the
street price of microdot? Bill

Happy New Year Bill,

You say

  That others have had sucessful LSD experiences is not suprising. Drug tolerance
builds with time used and dosage increase

I recall my first trips as the most pleasurable because I had the experience of
moving into a totally new dimension. The process of coming down tends to make
future trips a bit less joyous, because the initial feeling of a totally new
reality is reduced every time a person comes down. The Stones had a song in thew
60s"Coming down again" which was very appropriate as I see Jagger and his music
as the expression of realism as Lennon represented visionary possibilities.



Of course, Leary had feet of clay like us all; but I have heard it said that in
the mid 60s Leary was the unofficial leader of the east coast psychedelic
movement as Ken Kesey was the unofficial leader of the west coast psychedelic
movement.In my opinion, the psychedelic period from the mid 60s to the election
of Reagan and Lennon's death represented an extremely creative period for not
only music but in many areas.

Peace,
Tom
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: William
   To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 3:58 PM
   Subject: [existlist] Down the rabbit hole



   If something bad,scary happens down the rabbit hole you would need be coached
to go underground again. Or you just might get cubed and find yourself in a drug
infested horror.That is what I would experience if I tried to go back and live
in the bars. That others have had sucessful LSD experiences is not suprising.
Drug tolerance builds with time used and dosage increase. Smoking more now but
enjoying it less was a great Madison Ave question . Leary knew that but he
pushed his cult. He deserved his Harvard defrocking and they should have shot
him on the wire.
   Lennon was said to keep a pint of acid around. That could be considered
excessive. He could have cubed NYC.
   Now JFK was the true drug user. Years and years on opiates for intractable
pain. Good usage, needed usage but build up of untoward effects was a problem.
Speed my man,speed was the only answer. Dr. Robert and his vitamin shot was a
needed guest.
   I listened to Leary when he was popular and then watched his progression to
death. He reminded me of Fidel, an old revolutionary making long,boring
speaches.
   So guys you will not get me on the Remember Tim donation list. What is the
street price of microdot? Bill





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Happy New year, Bill