Wil, Of course you could make no sense of  that post, it was a
stream of  thought collage. Mood wise I was in Innsbruck in a  saloon
frequented  by  Sartre. I have been there and it smells like an
ancient bar.Those had to be great times with the  european  open
discourse still ope rant  from the French Revolution. A professor of
philosophy could hold forth against ann comers and defend his
intellectual turf. It could be bawdy but Sartre could hold sway
within the exchanges.
  I imagine Sartre looking like, proceeding  like  Leto  the gambler
in the Leto Shuffle. "Headed for the border line ,going for broke" ,
that is Sartre style, Leto style, Savate style, Dartanion style,
liberty style.
  I said I would write  like a wine  soaked Sartre and that was my
crude approximation. Listen to the   Free wheeling Bob Dylan and the
mood of  skepticism pushes out. So, when we began to  approach Sartre
I just got carried away and wrote what I was thinking about.
Birmingham relates to Louise as I understand there is  a argument
about linguistics and the proper use of  the apostrophe. I could see
Louise right in the center of  that discussion. Getting her ass
arrested for insubordination and generally raising hell. Wil, can you
as yet see any correlations? It is a mood piece like take five and
except for the  profanity was written without  known malice. many in
this group could be labeled as undifferentiated but that would be  an
error ,there can be great eccentricities held concurrently. It is
like holding lit dynamite, you can only hold it for so long. The
wonderful piece  "The Juggler" as drawn and painted by Picasso flits
into my head and  I may go back to Austria and smell that salon. I
will try to tone it down,NOT. Bill

Bill,

I seem to live in that same saloon more than is probably good for my health,
even if it is just in my head.

Tone it down? You? Better chance of me doing that, and there is no chance of
that at all.

Wil

In a message dated 2/1/09 2:23:43 PM, v.valleywestdental@... writes:

> Wil, Of course you could make no sense of that post, it was a
> stream of thought collage. Mood wise I was in Innsbruck in a saloon
> frequented by Sartre. I have been there and it smells like an
> ancient bar.Those had to be great times with the european open
> discourse still ope rant from the French Revolution. A professor of
> philosophy could hold forth against ann comers and defend his
> intellectual turf. It could be bawdy but Sartre could hold sway
> within the exchanges.
> I imagine Sartre looking like, proceeding like Leto the gambler
> in the Leto Shuffle. "Headed for the border line ,going for broke" ,
> that is Sartre style, Leto style, Savate style, Dartanion style,
> liberty style.
> I said I would write like a wine soaked Sartre and that was my
> crude approximation. Listen to the Free wheeling Bob Dylan and the
> mood of skepticism pushes out. So, when we began to approach Sartre
> I just got carried away and wrote what I was thinking about.
> Birmingham relates to Louise as I understand there is a argument
> about linguistics and the proper use of the apostrophe. I could see
> Louise right in the center of that discussion. Getting her ass
> arrested for insubordination and generally raising hell. Wil, can you
> as yet see any correlations? It is a mood piece like take five and
> except for the profanity was written without known malice. many in
> this group could be labeled as undifferentiated but that would be an
> error ,there can be great eccentricities held concurrently. It is
> like holding lit dynamite, you can only hold it for so long. The
> wonderful piece "The Juggler" as drawn and painted by Picasso flits
> into my head and I may go back to Austria and smell that salon. I
> will try to tone it down,NOT. Bill
>
>
>




**************
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Existlist seems more Theater of the Absurd, or maybe a salon. In any
event, I've nothing of late to offer for amusement. My saloon daze
ended. I'm tired, but never of these shenanigans.

always the understudy,
Mary

--- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "mary.josie59" <mary.josie59@...>
wrote:
>
> Existlist seems more Theater of the Absurd, or maybe a salon. In any
> event, I've nothing of late to offer for amusement. My saloon daze
> ended. I'm tired, but never of these shenanigans.
>
> always the understudy,
> Mary
>The Squirrls are eating peanuts hope they arnt the  ones  full of
Saminalla. It is warm and they are up and hungry. Can cun was cold and
windy but the cat was at the spa. So was priscilla who was reasonably
well behaved. I am trying to get fired up for the SB but better feed
the  critters or they will damage the house or car  . There are few
nuts left and as yet the  little blagards are not falling from the
trees. Can cun wants another feeding for the critters. That is her
giant flat screen and  Sqiirll is most popular. A young one just did  a
five foot free fall onto the satellite dish rim, he held it and that
calls for more peanuts. Bill

Another round for the critters!

I'm reading Nicholas Nickleby until half-time. I still have a heart
for the poor mistreated orphans and cripples. Absolutely adore Newman
Noggs.

Cheers,
Mary

All issue of Studia Phaenomenologica are now available as eBooks in
PDF format. You can order each issue on our website
http://www.studia-phaenomenologica.com/

Studia Phaenomenologica VIII (2008): Phenomenology and literature, 480
p. Delia Popa, Cristian Ciocan (eds.), ISBN: 978-973-50-2223-5, ISSN:
1582-5647
http://www.studia-phaenomenologica.com/index.php?page=issue&id=8
Studia Phaenomenologica VII (2007): Jan Patocka and the European
Heritage, 2007, 568 p., ISSN 1582-5647, Cristian Ciocan (ed.), Ivan
Chvatík (guest editor)
http://www.studia-phaenomenologica.com/index.php?page=issue&id=7
Studia Phaenomenologica VI (2006): A Century with Levinas: Notes on
the Margin of his Legacy, 2006, 504 p., ISSN 1582-5647, ISBN (10):
973-50-1416-5; ISBN (13): 978-973-50-1416-2, Cristian Ciocan (ed.),
Adina Bozga (coord.), Attila Szigeti (coord.)
http://www.studia-phaenomenologica.com/index.php?page=issue&id=6
Studia Phaenomenologica V (2005): Translating Heidegger's Sein und
Zeit, 2005, 407 p., ISSN 1582-5647, ISBN: 973-50-1142-5, Cristian
Ciocan (ed.)
http://www.studia-phaenomenologica.com/index.php?page=issue&id=5
Studia Phaenomenologica IV (2004) nos. 3-4: The Ocean of Forgetting.
Alexandru Dragomir â€" A Romanian Phenomenologist, 2004, 296 p., ISSN
1582-5647, ISBN: 973-50-0979-X, Cristian Ciocan (ed./coord), Paul
Balogh (coord.)
http://www.studia-phaenomenologica.com/index.php?page=issue&id=434
Studia Phaenomenologica IV 1-2/2004: Varia. Issues on Brentano,
Husserl and Heidegger, 2004, 244 p., ISSN 1582-5647, ISBN:
973-50-0879-3, Gabriel Cercel & Cristian Ciocan (eds.)
http://www.studia-phaenomenologica.com/index.php?page=issue&id=412
Studia Phaenomenologica Special Issue 2003: Kunst und Wahrheit.
Festschrift fur Walter Biemel zu seinem 85. Geburtstag, 2003, 404 p.,
ISSN: 1582-5647, ISBN: 973-50-0423-2, Madalina Diaconu (coord.)
http://www.studia-phaenomenologica.com/index.php?page=issue&id=s1
Studia Phaenomenologica III 3-4/2003: Maurice Merleau-Ponty: Chiasm
and Logos, 2003, 400 p., ISSN 1582-5647, ISBN 973-50-0655-5, Gabriel
Cercel & Cristian Ciocan (eds.), Adina Bozga & Ion Copoeru (coord.)
http://www.studia-phaenomenologica.com/index.php?page=issue&id=334
Studia Phaenomenologica III 1-2/2003: The School of Brentano and
Husserlian Phenomenology, 2003, 312 p., ISSN 1582-5647, ISBN:
973-50-0564-6, Gabriel Cercel & Cristian Ciocan (eds.), Ion Tanasescu
& Victor Popescu (coord.)
http://www.studia-phaenomenologica.com/index.php?page=issue&id=312
Studia Phaenomenologica II 1-2/2002: Varia. Issues on Husserl, Fink
and Schütz, 2002, 248 p., ISSN 1582-5647, Gabriel Cercel & Cristian
Ciocan (eds.)
http://www.studia-phaenomenologica.com/index.php?page=issue&id=234
Studia Phaenomenolologica II 3-4/2002: In memoriam Hans-Georg Gadamer,
2002, 320 p., ISSN 1582-5647, Gabriel Cercel & Cristian Ciocan (eds.)
http://www.studia-phaenomenologica.com/index.php?page=issue&id=212
Studia Phaenomenologica I 3-4/2001: The Early Heidegger, 2001, 504 p.,
ISSN 1582-5647, Gabriel Cercel & Cristian Ciocan (eds.)
http://www.studia-phaenomenologica.com/index.php?page=issue&id=134
Studia Phaenomenologica I 1-2/2001: Heidegger and Theology, 2001, 450
p., ISSN 1582-5647, Gabriel Cercel & Cristian Ciocan (eds.)
http://www.studia-phaenomenologica.com/index.php?page=issue&id=112

Though this is an advert, at least it is useful -- and on topic.

On Feb 01, 2009, at 18:10, Cristian Ciocan wrote:

> All issue of Studia Phaenomenologica are now available as eBooks in
> PDF format. You can order each issue on our website
> http://www.studia-phaenomenologica.com/
>
> Studia Phaenomenologica VIII (2008): Phenomenology and literature, 480
> p. Delia Popa, Cristian Ciocan (eds.), ISBN: 978-973-50-2223-5, ISSN:
> 1582-5647
> http://www.studia-phaenomenologica.com/index.php?page=issue&id=8
> Studia Phaenomenologica VII (2007): Jan Patocka and the European
> Heritage, 2007, 568 p., ISSN 1582-5647, Cristian Ciocan (ed.), Ivan
> Chvatà k (guest editor)
> http://www.studia-phaenomenologica.com/index.php?page=issue&id=7
> Studia Phaenomenologica VI (2006): A Century with Levinas: Notes on
> the Margin of his Legacy, 2006, 504 p., ISSN 1582-5647, ISBN (10):
> 973-50-1416-5; ISBN (13): 978-973-50-1416-2, Cristian Ciocan (ed.),
> Adina Bozga (coord.), Attila Szigeti (coord.)
> http://www.studia-phaenomenologica.com/index.php?page=issue&id=6
> Studia Phaenomenologica V (2005): Translating Heidegger's Sein und
> Zeit, 2005, 407 p., ISSN 1582-5647, ISBN: 973-50-1142-5, Cristian
> Ciocan (ed.)
> http://www.studia-phaenomenologica.com/index.php?page=issue&id=5
> Studia Phaenomenologica IV (2004) nos. 3-4: The Ocean of Forgetting.
> Alexandru Dragomir â€" A Romanian Phenomenologist, 2004, 296 p., ISSN
> 1582-5647, ISBN: 973-50-0979-X, Cristian Ciocan (ed./coord), Paul
> Balogh (coord.)
> http://www.studia-phaenomenologica.com/index.php?page=issue&id=434
> Studia Phaenomenologica IV 1-2/2004: Varia. Issues on Brentano,
> Husserl and Heidegger, 2004, 244 p., ISSN 1582-5647, ISBN:
> 973-50-0879-3, Gabriel Cercel & Cristian Ciocan (eds.)
> http://www.studia-phaenomenologica.com/index.php?page=issue&id=412
> Studia Phaenomenologica Special Issue 2003: Kunst und Wahrheit.
> Festschrift fur Walter Biemel zu seinem 85. Geburtstag, 2003, 404 p.,
> ISSN: 1582-5647, ISBN: 973-50-0423-2, Madalina Diaconu (coord.)
> http://www.studia-phaenomenologica.com/index.php?page=issue&id=s1
> Studia Phaenomenologica III 3-4/2003: Maurice Merleau-Ponty: Chiasm
> and Logos, 2003, 400 p., ISSN 1582-5647, ISBN 973-50-0655-5, Gabriel
> Cercel & Cristian Ciocan (eds.), Adina Bozga & Ion Copoeru (coord.)
> http://www.studia-phaenomenologica.com/index.php?page=issue&id=334
> Studia Phaenomenologica III 1-2/2003: The School of Brentano and
> Husserlian Phenomenology, 2003, 312 p., ISSN 1582-5647, ISBN:
> 973-50-0564-6, Gabriel Cercel & Cristian Ciocan (eds.), Ion Tanasescu
> & Victor Popescu (coord.)
> http://www.studia-phaenomenologica.com/index.php?page=issue&id=312
> Studia Phaenomenologica II 1-2/2002: Varia. Issues on Husserl, Fink
> and Schütz, 2002, 248 p., ISSN 1582-5647, Gabriel Cercel & Cristian
> Ciocan (eds.)
> http://www.studia-phaenomenologica.com/index.php?page=issue&id=234
> Studia Phaenomenolologica II 3-4/2002: In memoriam Hans-Georg Gadamer,
> 2002, 320 p., ISSN 1582-5647, Gabriel Cercel & Cristian Ciocan (eds.)
> http://www.studia-phaenomenologica.com/index.php?page=issue&id=212
> Studia Phaenomenologica I 3-4/2001: The Early Heidegger, 2001, 504 p.,
> ISSN 1582-5647, Gabriel Cercel & Cristian Ciocan (eds.)
> http://www.studia-phaenomenologica.com/index.php?page=issue&id=134
> Studia Phaenomenologica I 1-2/2001: Heidegger and Theology, 2001, 450
> p., ISSN 1582-5647, Gabriel Cercel & Cristian Ciocan (eds.)
> http://www.studia-phaenomenologica.com/index.php?page=issue&id=112
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining
> nothing!
>
> Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

- C. S. Wyatt
I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all
that I shall be.
http://www.tameri.com  - Tameri Guide for Writers
http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist  - The Existential Primer

How does confidence relate to risk? I think it is the commidity in
the other balance pan. At the present time we are as risk adversive
as any time in my life. It is uncertainty that is the risk multipler
and the conduct of  those who were task with  ethical conduct and
those task with regulating them have failed .
  We have made a beginning by changing political leadership but now
the new administration runs head on into entrenched greed and  failed
management. These managers threaten us with total finaccial failure
if we  stop their nefarious  behavors. I see this as the time to call
their bluff and fire  many many of these paper bullies. I call into
these cases both  the expertise and motives of  our present  business
leadership.
  They  authorised the  derivative bundling that has ruined our
banking system. They should not be compensated for  that financial
madness, they should be fired. They should be fired because they have
an attitude of complete disregard for their real bosses, the common
stock holders of their corporations. Those  stock holders have been
wronged by gross mismanagement and should seek class action  redress
against the estates of the CEO`s. Fire the CEO`s and confiscate
their  property. Only then will the negative effect of the risk
multiplier be reduced. The final step will be the hiring and and
succsessful operation of multiple business ventures by new
management.
  I might suggest we begin with an accellerated business agreement
with the British government in the salvage and dissemination of the
wealth of the HMS Victory. We should work togeather to reclaim that
golden wealth and use it to restore trust in fair business dealings.
Bill

How to control a herd of humans

04 February 2009 by David Robson
<http://www.newscientist.com/search?rbauthors=David+Robson>

Activities performed in unison, like marching or dancing, increase loyalty
to the group

Read our related editorial: The Obama factor, revealed
<http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20126943.800-the-obama-factor-reveale
d.html>

HITLER and Mussolini both had the ability to bend millions of people to
their fascist will. Now evidence from psychology and neurology is emerging
to explain how tactics like organised marching and propaganda can work to
exert mass mind control.

Scott Wiltermuth <http://www.stanford.edu/~scwilter/>  of Stanford
University in California and colleagues have found that activities performed
in unison, such as marching or dancing, increase loyalty to the group. "It
makes us feel as though we're part of a larger entity, so we see the group's
welfare as being as important as our own," he says.

Wiltermuth's team separated 96 people into four groups who performed these
tasks together: listening to a song while silently mouthing the words,
singing along, singing and dancing, or listening to different versions of
the song so that they sang and danced out of sync. In a later game, when
asked to decide whether to stick with the group or strive for personal gain,
those in the non-synchronised group behaved less loyally than the rest
(Psychological Science, vol 20, p 1
<http://dx.doi.org/10.1111/j.1467-9280.2008.02253.x> ).

Psychologist Jonathan Haidt <http://people.virginia.edu/~jdh6n/>  at the
University of Virginia in Charlottesville thinks this research helps explain
why fascist leaders, amongst others, use organised marching and chanting to
whip crowds into a frenzy of devotion to their cause, though these tactics
can be used just as well for peace, he stresses. Community dances and group
singing can ease local tension, for example - a theory he plans to test
experimentally (Journal of Legal Studies, DOI: 10.1086/529447
<http://dx.doi.org/10.1086/529447> ).

Meanwhile, the powerful unifying effects of propaganda images are being
explored by Charles Seger at Indiana University at Bloomington. His team
primed students with pictures of their university - college sweatshirts or
the buildings themselves - then asked how highly they scored on different
emotions, such as pride or happiness. The primed students gave a strikingly
similar emotional profile, in contrast with non-primed students (Journal of
Experimental Social Psychology, DOI: 10.1016/j.jesp.2008.12.004
<http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.jesp.2008.12.004> ).

Interest in the idea of a herd mentality has been renewed by work into
mirror neurons - cells that fire when we perform an action or watch someone
perform a similar action. It suggests that our brains are geared to mimic
our peers. "We are set up for 'auto-copy'," says Haidt.

Interest in the idea of a herd mentality has been renewed by research into
mirror neurons

Neurological evidence seems to back this idea. Vasily Klucharev
<http://www.ru.nl/neuroimaging/staff/cognitive_neurology/vasily_klucharev/>
, at the Donders Centre for Cognitive Neuroimaging in Nijmegen, the
Netherlands, found that the brain releases more of the reward chemical
dopamine when we fall in line with the group consensus (Neuron, vol 61, p
140). His team asked 24 women to rate more than 200 women for
attractiveness. If a participant discovered their ratings did not tally with
that of the others, they tended to readjust their scores. When a woman
realised her differing opinion, fMRI scans revealed that her brain generated
what the team dubbed an "error signal". This has a conditioning effect, says
Klucharev: it's how we learn to follow the crowd.

Read our related editorial: The Obama factor, revealed
<http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20126943.800-the-obama-factor-reveale
d.html>

I   have  read your garbige  for  too  long, I have the honor of
exposiing your  verbal madness with  necessity. Enjoy your  personal
self . Bill

neuroscience is basic in its revelation of the differences of consciousness
(asymmetry) and speciesness (symmetry). Our speciesness is built-up over
considerable time spans and needs to be understood clearly for consciousness
to act as an agent of mediation upon such instincts; as such there is the
need for 'eternal vigilance' lest one falls back onto 'autopilot' too
readily.

Implicit in the quotes/links supplied in the post is the application of the
material to ANY collective and that includes a collective of existentialists
where the 'greats' are repeated ad nausea (and stuck in a time leading into
the 1950s) but no consideration is given to what neurosciences is telling us
about the perspectives of existentialist philosophers developed over a
period of time lacking any form of awareness of our nature as a species of
primates. (reading Sartre's text on emotions being a fine example of an
out-dated mindset).

One can no longer 'do' philosophy without consideration of core motivations
of all of as both as species beings and conscious beings where such are
grounded, seeded, in the neurology.

The 'drive' of mindless evolution is to 'best fit' any context and the
emergence of consciousness as an agent of mediation allows for such, for
emergence of a post modernist perspective that 'any metaphor will do' in
fitting in with reality and so a focus on shape-shifting; today one is
existentialist, tomorrow one is whatever is required to 'fit in'. This
evolution focus is on SAMENESS dynamics and so on SYMMETRY. For a SPECIES
development this is the best path for fitting into a thermodynamic universe
- to conserve energy etc and so conserve all there is through adopting
symmetric dynamics as covered in socialisation and crowd management etc.

OTOH with the development of consciousness and so our singular being has
emerged a facility that increases the bandwidth of the species in that we
have 6.7 billion unique sensory systems; the emphasis here is on DIFFERENCE.
The PRICE of maintaining that difference is on being competitive,
argumentative, and so perpetually symmetry breaking/making through the use
of mediation and language development (and so asymmetry) where such allows
for transcendence over the more energy conserving transformation of symmetry
thinking.  (we note here that the use of consciousness to mediate and so
refine instincts/habits leads ultimately, in principle, to the degeneration
of consciousness as all experiences are met with some 'best fit' instinctive
response and so mediation is no longer required! - imagination gets over
THAT problem in that we can come up with a plethora of 'what ifs' - as we do
with fiction)

This passage from speciesness to consciousness ultimately leads to the
politics of Anarchy as the 'best fit' in that it includes self-determination
that includes self-transcendence over self-transformation. As such all
political perspectives are up for investigation given the work coming out of
neuroscience, work NONE of you will able to ignore and so better to
understand it now and be vigilant than let it run riot in the hands of
social engineers.

For recent coverage see such as:

Westen, D., (2007)"The Political Brain : The Role of Emotion in Deciding the
Fate of the Nation" PublicAffairs
Gazzaniga, Michael S., (2005)"The Ethical Brain" Dana Press

For the symmetry bias of 'all is connected' see such as:

Marx, K., ([1859]) Dobb,M.(ed)(1970)"A Contribution to the Critique of
Political Economy" International Publishers

Fidlon David, (trans) - Various(1968)"Historical Materialism : Basic
Problems" Progress Publishers, Moscow

Cohen, G.A. (1978)"Karl Marx's Theory of History" PUP

Elster, J., (1985)"Making Sense of Marx [part 2:theory of history]" CUP

Gladwell, M., (2000)"The Tipping Point" Little Brown

Buchanan, M., (2002)"Small World" Phoenix

Wolff, J.,(2002)"Why Read Marx Today?" OUP

Popper, K., (2002)"The Povery of Historicism" Routledge

Barabasi, A-L (2002)"Linked : The New Science of Networks" Perseus

Strogatz, S., (2003)"Sync" Allen Lane

Watts, J.D., (1999)"Small Worlds" Princton

Watts, J.D., (2003)"Six Degrees" Heinemann

Ball, P., (2004)"Critical Mass : How one thing leads to another"Heinemann

Time to grow up guys - move into the 21st century AD rather than wallow in
the confused mindsets of a philosophical perspectives grounded in ignorance
-- or else give up and go and play golf ;-)

Chris
http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/AbstractDomain.html

> -----Original Message-----
> From: existlist@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of bhvwd
> Sent: Thursday, 5 February 2009 2:34 PM
> To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [existlist] you utter pig Chris.
>
> I   have  read your garbige  for  too  long, I have the honor of
> exposiing your  verbal madness with  necessity. Enjoy your
> personal self . Bill
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to
> explaining nothing!
>
> Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

How do people  get far out? Many it seems just cannot back out of
the   tunnel they have crawled into. Chaney seems a case in point. He
is the kind of politician I feared. Nixon was another and so was
Lyndon Johnson. It wasn't necessarily what they were thinking it was
the cold certitude they employed in prosecuting their positions. Once
the lens is ground  the perspective changes to accommodate the bent
apparition. The true ideologues remain  cemented to their lens and
never look  at anything without it in place. Militarism seems  a
particularly powerful  way of looking at the world. For Chaney war is
the only  way to  react to the world. Of course his  business
alliance with the military industrial complex caused his foreign
policy to demand constant war as a backdrop for the profit mechanism
he needed. He is now trying to cause a self fulfilling prophecy as he
begs  the terrorists to attack and restore his war footing. With
Chaney this is particularly  onerous as he has at his disposal  a
covert army of hired guns , bombers and hit men. He  wants torture
and in the name of public safety he will allow any barbarism.
  The present administration is  presently ignoring  him but Chaney
may be too dangerous to let alone. Many constitutional lawyers think
he has crossed the line more than once into the area of war crimes.
It may be playing into his hands to indite him  but if he continues
his treasonous banter his own patriot act may be needed to suppress
him. If he continues to exercise power outside of office he  comes
under the light of sedition statutes. I think  as in the case of the
Illinois Governor we must not shrink from stopping his illegal and
dangerous  activities. Because a person  appears authoritarian,
exudes confidence and  has an iron will to continue does not put him
above the law. Fanatacism works that way and putting such people back
into  a social order where they can no longer wreck havoc on society
may be necessary. Extremism is the result of looking through a
convenient lens for a long time. A neuroscientist, a war mongering
milatarist, a weak minded ex president or  a fraudulent  investment
executive have one particular  and self serving world view. For those
who have overstayed their welcome if there is no  carcass to caucus
about slow starvation is an option. It is the whining that must be
put up with. Bill

--- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "bhvwd" <v.valleywestdental@...>
wrote:
>
> How do people  get far out? Many it seems just cannot back out of
> the   tunnel they have crawled into. Chaney seems a case in point.
He
> is the kind of politician I feared. Nixon was another and so was
> Lyndon Johnson. It wasn't necessarily what they were thinking it
was
> the cold certitude they employed in prosecuting their positions.
Once
> the lens is ground  the perspective changes to accommodate the bent
> apparition. The true ideologues remain  cemented to their lens and
> never look  at anything without it in place. Militarism seems  a
> particularly powerful  way of looking at the world. For Chaney war
is
> the only  way to  react to the world. Of course his  business
> alliance with the military industrial complex caused his foreign
> policy to demand constant war as a backdrop for the profit
mechanism
> he needed. He is now trying to cause a self fulfilling prophecy as
he
> begs  the terrorists to attack and restore his war footing. With
> Chaney this is particularly  onerous as he has at his disposal  a
> covert army of hired guns , bombers and hit men. He  wants torture
> and in the name of public safety he will allow any barbarism.
>  The present administration is  presently ignoring  him but Chaney
> may be too dangerous to let alone. Many constitutional lawyers
think
> he has crossed the line more than once into the area of war crimes.
> It may be playing into his hands to indite him  but if he continues
> his treasonous banter his own patriot act may be needed to suppress
> him. If he continues to exercise power outside of office he  comes
> under the light of sedition statutes. I think  as in the case of
the
> Illinois Governor we must not shrink from stopping his illegal and
> dangerous  activities. Because a person  appears authoritarian,
> exudes confidence and  has an iron will to continue does not put
him
> above the law. Fanatacism works that way and putting such people
back
> into  a social order where they can no longer wreck havoc on
society
> may be necessary. Extremism is the result of looking through a
> convenient lens for a long time. A neuroscientist, a war mongering
> milatarist, a weak minded ex president or  a fraudulent  investment
> executive have one particular  and self serving world view. For
those
> who have overstayed their welcome if there is no  carcass to caucus
> about slow starvation is an option. It is the whining that must be
> put up with. Bill
>SO, using the Victory bullion fortune remoniterise at  1000$ US per
Troy Oz  Au. Mr Brown and Mr Obama have to  play lets make a deal.
They may  already have done so. A new golden  standard for a new
golden age. Bill

> -----Original Message-----
> From: existlist@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of bhvwd
> Sent: Friday, 6 February 2009 9:30 AM
> To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [existlist] The loonies on the lawn
>
> How do people  get far out? Many it seems just cannot back out of
> the   tunnel they have crawled into. Chaney seems a case in point. He
> is the kind of politician I feared. Nixon was another and so
> was Lyndon Johnson. It wasn't necessarily what they were
> thinking it was the cold certitude they employed in
> prosecuting their positions.

" the thing is to find a truth which is true for me, to find the idea for
which I can live and die" Kierkegaard

Chaney, Nixon, Johnson etc all made commitments in accord with what
Kierkegaard expressed - they are/were prepared to die for their positions.
The mindsets reflect a selection of the POSSIBLE mindsets available given
our neurology and its seeding of social sameness and individual differences.

Fundamentalism is a property of a focus on self over others and is a NATURAL
property of our nature as a primate species. The more assertion of
individuality the more borders created, the more focus on local context,
competitiveness, self-organising systems. The full spectrum is huge and
covers all possible behaviours given a specialist context and so covers high
precision differentiating to low precision integrating (the latter covers
the emergence of wave perspectives from pulse perspectives)

The dynamics involved cover what the ancient Greeks called enantiodromia and
this dynamic covers all scales and that includes historical dynamics
covering generations. As these social dynamics play out, so individuals are
born into certain times and some 'fit in' really well, others do not. What
is obvious at the social level is the dynamics of competitive vs cooperative
perspectives, of differentiating vs integrating and the mix of such. HIGH
level differentiating will elicit a social bias to the individual over the
group, the assertion of one's OWN context to replace the existing context. A
lesser level is where the individual is still competitive but serves the
existing context in that competitiveness. From a leadership perspective this
latter is leadership from the back (management) the former from the front -
recurse these and a spectrum emerges of POSSIBLE states, all with a
'purpose', and all interacting with reality at the one instance where local
context then 'selects' the best/worst fits and that can include one's
assertion of one's own context over that local context! (and so
competitiveness, argumentative etc etc etc)

From a SPECIES position the only 'truth' is the survival of the species and
its components in local collectives. From the SINGULAR position the only
'truth' is in one's own survival and the adoption of a mindset to achieve
such. (neurologically, the FEELING of 'truth' is sourced in the feeling of
'correctness' that goes with syntax processing. Dig deeper and we find
association of 'truth' with territorial mapping and so with a sense of
personal/collective identity/ownership - dig deeper and we find the feeling
of 'truth-as-identity' tied to a feeling of wholeness and so of symmetry -
but that LACKS precision - is too static in a dynamic universe. That said,
we realise that the best adaptation to a thermodynamic universe is energy
conservation and so a symmetric perspective over all - but this is also a
social perspective and the individual disappears to be 'one of many' all
considered 'same'! THAT said, the closed nature of the collective is open to
the unique perspectives of conscious individuals where such can re-organise
the collective over night - and so the dynamics of part/whole,
free-will/determinism, transcending/transforming, anti-symmetry/symmetry etc
etc etc)

Kierkegaard's statement was based on ignorance of our species nature and the
specialist roles particular members of the species can play, and the unique
perspectives emergable from those roles together with the occasional
'innovative' perspective of an individual. GIVEN the understanding of our
PARTICULAR natures we can identify core, generic, purpose in each of us
where such covers serving the species over serving the self - thus if one
struggles in trying to assert self so there is always the fall back on
serving the species.

Chris
http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/AbstractDomain.html

--- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "chris lofting" <lofting@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: existlist@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of bhvwd
> > Sent: Friday, 6 February 2009 9:30 AM
> > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [existlist] The loonies on the lawn
> >
> > How do people  get far out? Many it seems just cannot back out
of
> > the   tunnel they have crawled into. Chaney seems a case in
point. He
> > is the kind of politician I feared. Nixon was another and so
> > was Lyndon Johnson. It wasn't necessarily what they were
> > thinking it was the cold certitude they employed in
> > prosecuting their positions.
>
> " the thing is to find a truth which is true for me, to find the
idea for
> which I can live and die" Kierkegaard
>
> Chaney, Nixon, Johnson etc all made commitments in accord with what
> Kierkegaard expressed - they are/were prepared to die for their
positions.
> The mindsets reflect a selection of the POSSIBLE mindsets available
given
> our neurology and its seeding of social sameness and individual
differences.
>
> Fundamentalism is a property of a focus on self over others and is
a NATURAL
> property of our nature as a primate species. The more assertion of
> individuality the more borders created, the more focus on local
context,
> competitiveness, self-organising systems. The full spectrum is huge
and
> covers all possible behaviours given a specialist context and so
covers high
> precision differentiating to low precision integrating (the latter
covers
> the emergence of wave perspectives from pulse perspectives)
>
> The dynamics involved cover what the ancient Greeks called
enantiodromia and
> this dynamic covers all scales and that includes historical dynamics
> covering generations. As these social dynamics play out, so
individuals are
> born into certain times and some 'fit in' really well, others do
not. What
> is obvious at the social level is the dynamics of competitive vs
cooperative
> perspectives, of differentiating vs integrating and the mix of
such. HIGH
> level differentiating will elicit a social bias to the individual
over the
> group, the assertion of one's OWN context to replace the existing
context. A
> lesser level is where the individual is still competitive but
serves the
> existing context in that competitiveness. From a leadership
perspective this
> latter is leadership from the back (management) the former from the
front -
> recurse these and a spectrum emerges of POSSIBLE states, all with a
> 'purpose', and all interacting with reality at the one instance
where local
> context then 'selects' the best/worst fits and that can include
one's
> assertion of one's own context over that local context! (and so
> competitiveness, argumentative etc etc etc)
>
> From a SPECIES position the only 'truth' is the survival of the
species and
> its components in local collectives. From the SINGULAR position the
only
> 'truth' is in one's own survival and the adoption of a mindset to
achieve
> such. (neurologically, the FEELING of 'truth' is sourced in the
feeling of
> 'correctness' that goes with syntax processing. Dig deeper and we
find
> association of 'truth' with territorial mapping and so with a sense
of
> personal/collective identity/ownership - dig deeper and we find the
feeling
> of 'truth-as-identity' tied to a feeling of wholeness and so of
symmetry -
> but that LACKS precision - is too static in a dynamic universe.
That said,
> we realise that the best adaptation to a thermodynamic universe is
energy
> conservation and so a symmetric perspective over all - but this is
also a
> social perspective and the individual disappears to be 'one of
many' all
> considered 'same'! THAT said, the closed nature of the collective
is open to
> the unique perspectives of conscious individuals where such can re-
organise
> the collective over night - and so the dynamics of part/whole,
> free-will/determinism, transcending/transforming, anti-
symmetry/symmetry etc
> etc etc)
>
> Kierkegaard's statement was based on ignorance of our species
nature and the
> specialist roles particular members of the species can play, and
the unique
> perspectives emergable from those roles together with the occasional
> 'innovative' perspective of an individual. GIVEN the understanding
of our
> PARTICULAR natures we can identify core, generic, purpose in each
of us
> where such covers serving the species over serving the self - thus
if one
> struggles in trying to assert self so there is always the fall back
on
> serving the species.
>
> Chris
> http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/AbstractDomain.html
>Chris, Your use of a quote from SK is indicative of your  love of
meaningless verbiage. The man simply could not make up his mind and
so he rambled in circles, he thought about thinking, and trembled in
agnosticism. It is said he ended his extended tension  with some
hybrid god as conciliation. I am not that sort of existentialist and
detest  such dalliance with  the fire of belief. Endless , pointless
verbiage  is in itself a stalling tactic perhaps used by  those who
cannot commit to  a reasoned world. I have made that commitment to
rational living and have had  a good deal of success providing a
life  filled with scientific  labor devoid of belief. I know it
works, I have lived  it and find real loathing of those who attempt
to  blabber out of  existential responsibility in order to assuage
their fear of the wrath of god or the responsibility of human
progress.
  I have been warned words mean nothing, have been threatened with
exclusion from the avant guard  and  still I will not spend my time
reading or discussing the trembling trash written by the uncommitted.
  If the rational mind is at odds with itself, I suggest you  look at
the actual progress that has built a better world. I ask you to state
your  position regarding atheism, rationality  and modernism. If you
attempt an escape into your SK like posturing I will not respond, it
is not worth my time.
  So I put the question to you,are you an existentialist ? If not why
the hell do you attempt to write here ? If you claim to be an
existentialist please inform me why you boast such confidence.
Neuroscience speak is not relevant in this discussion, this is an
existential  site peopled by many of considerable writing skill. Can
you cut it? Bill

It is showdown time, high noon, the horizon of apocalypse. Will we try
or will we slink off to degrade and die? It has been the time for
discussion but that  comes to an end. Now these political executives
that we have elected need count the nays and yeas. I feel their  stress
because it is my ass they are cooking or saving.
  A mistake for these pinnacle politicians means they will be reduced
with their  legends sullied and memory erased. Those boys have egos  as
good as their suits and it adds to the tension.
There are way too many  unknowns in this  stimulus equation to make any
better than a hopeful guess at a positive outcome. It is not so bad for
the Dems they were sent there to change things  and  they will. Sure
there is still conference committee but those will be gavel-ed closed
in short order. The old ,republican  senators are being called to help
or fall on their swords. The  gentle lawn is no longer accessible, get
on the path  or take your shot. But it is a lovely day. Bill

> -----Original Message-----
> From: existlist@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of bhvwd
> Sent: Saturday, 7 February 2009 4:35 AM
> To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [existlist] Re: The loonies on the lawn
>
<snip>
> >Chris, Your use of a quote from SK is indicative of your  love of
> meaningless verbiage. The man simply could not make up his
> mind and so he rambled in circles, he thought about thinking,
> and trembled in agnosticism. It is said he ended his extended
> tension  with some hybrid god as conciliation. I am not that
> sort of existentialist and detest  such dalliance with  the
> fire of belief. Endless , pointless verbiage  is in itself a
> stalling tactic perhaps used by  those who cannot commit to
> a reasoned world. I have made that commitment to rational
> living and have had  a good deal of success providing a life
> filled with scientific  labor devoid of belief. I know it
> works, I have lived  it and find real loathing of those who
> attempt to  blabber out of  existential responsibility in
> order to assuage their fear of the wrath of god or the
> responsibility of human progress.
>  I have been warned words mean nothing, have been threatened
> with exclusion from the avant guard  and  still I will not
> spend my time reading or discussing the trembling trash
> written by the uncommitted.
>  If the rational mind is at odds with itself, I suggest you
> look at the actual progress that has built a better world.
> I ask you to state your  position regarding atheism,
> rationality  and modernism.

atheism - there is no need for the 'god' hypothesis but there IS a sense of
collective 'spirit' shared across all humans as symmetry-determined life
forms (we ARE 'all connected' in that the emotions covering sympathy/empathy
ties us all - mirror neurons reinforce that connectivity). The ignorance of
consciousness as to what is going on is covered in such perspectives as that
of 'angels' etc where in this link we find basic dynamics of context pushing
neural buttons are sensed and interpreted as if 'spirits' at work -
http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/angels.html

More recent work with mirror neurons suggests a main difference between our
use and the use of such in monkeys is our ability to interpret mime -
indicating the ability to pretend, to imagine. Something the monkeys could
NOT do. See such research as in:

Dehaene, S., et al (eds)(2005)"From Monkey Brain to Human Brain" MITP

rationality - the issues in the brain with regard to differences in
precision processing, and so resolution power, bring out styles of logic
covering symmetry and asymmetric logics. The former lacks precision in it
cannot reduce past a PAIR (and so favours symmetry) - as such the
BI-conditional dominated all thinking and this covers social dynamics as it
does the 'logic' of dreams. The latter covers high precision thinking that
includes the asymmetry of the conditional. It requires EDUCATION to develop
this ability as it does in developing regulation of our more
primate-grounded emotions. NOT educating people along this line means we
have some very smart apes hanging around and they dominate at the moment ;-)

Other life forms have reasoning skills but we include in reasoning the
ability to falsely reason and so justify all sorts of perspectives! The
development of consciousness as a proactive agent of mediation allows for
selective reasoning and includes the use of being unreasonable/irrational as
a way to escape false reasoning. As such, reasoning allows for the
refinement of intuitive, immediate, responses to situations and
consciousness allows for refinement of reasoning and that included the
exploitation of intuition where such has been refined by reasoning.

modernism - the initial dynamics were good but the movement into
post-modernism opened up a reaction to the diversity of issues raised where
the cutting of old ties, antiquated perspectives, removed a sense of
committed 'meaning' that comes with such long-standing ties. The
sophistication of arguments etc flummoxed the masses to a level where 'any
metaphor will do' type of thinking developed - this being a manifestation of
symmetric thinking. Science itself is grounded in a perspective that DEMANDS
symmetry (repeatability, falsifiability etc etc) and so the push of
scientific perspectives without education of such other than to 'those with
natural skills' (about 15% of the population) elicited a dumbing-down of the
population (standards were dropped, and still are being dropped).

Most hard-core science-trained individuals (the over-educated) turned their
back on such development (they are not too good at politics) and we find
ourselves in the mess we are in, a lot of smart apes playing their alpha
male/female games but globally and so out of context (where such games fit
locally).

The IDM material in fact aids in education through identifying all of the
specialist perspectives as local manifestations of our filtering system -
the neurology. LOCAL context customisations bring out differences but behind
them all is a level of sameness spanning the species (and so a ground in the
symmetric, the determinism of the species within which operates
consciousness as an agent of mediation and so 'randomiser' of data, a maker
of choices, to elicit unique perspectives and so able to break and make
symmetries proactively rather than the reactive path that favours a
reduction to symmetric living reactively)

> If you attempt an escape into
> your SK like posturing I will not respond, it is not worth my time.

I was not posturing, just quoting a existentialist perspective applicable to
all the people you hate so much. As such I was emphasising that your
perspective is no different emotionally to theirs.  The rage you apply to
Cheney etc is I am sure the same as the rage he applies to those who are
against him!

>  So I put the question to you,are you an existentialist ?

No. I am a human FIRST. THEN comes a favouring of existentialist
perspectives but a perpetual re-questioning of such given the work in
neurosciences etc. YOUR obvious desire to escape your apeness is amusing at
times, sad at other times.

> If
> not why the hell do you attempt to write here ? If you claim
> to be an existentialist please inform me why you boast such
> confidence.

I am more integrated than you; transcendence covers enantiodromia as it does
the development of wisdom - thus the circular dynamic is more so spiral in
form. Thus development covers more awareness of the depth of our being as
individuals, as humans and as apes and the mix. You present more as an
over-educated, over-specialist, individual and as such one incapable at the
moment to extend one's perspective - you appear to live in fear and with it
express anger etc and cover a symmetric mindset (where stereotyping is a
trait)! - perhaps scientific method has got to you where you LIVE IT rather
than USE IT?

The focus in science on SAMENESS, on algorithms and formulas through use of
scientific method and its roots in symmetry, inevitably leads to a symmetric
bias in perspective but such is misleading when applied to the universe as a
whole. In fact all that traditional science has covered so far, in the
context of understanding the universe etc, is to reveal only 6% of what is
there! All of that work has been grounded in SYMMETRIC perspectives and so
only brings out the symmetry present, the rest remains 'hidden' until we
change our perspectives where such is possible given the asymmetry of
consciousness and so a movement into modernism-squared where the
methodologies used in science are open to questioning. Neuroscience is
aiding in that work in that we can map-out modernism to post-modernism
(where the plethora of gods/belief systems are now seen as METAPHORS and so
increasing in number when the intent was to remove such beliefs! - as such
the spiritual aspect of our species is recognised as vague/general and so in
need of labelling to fit each individual's perspective where such includes
secular fundamentalism as it does religious fundamentalism - all the
interchangeable metaphors covering the ONE generic 'trait')

> Neuroscience speak is not relevant in this discussion, this
> is an existential  site peopled by many of considerable
> writing skill.

....meaningless in the context of resolving the issues of our time. There is
no room in philosophy for those NOT up to date with neurosciences since the
tie of consciousness/meaning/mediation to our nature as neuron-dependent
life forms is inescapable.  It makes no difference how good a writer you
are, how good you are at rhetoric, it still reduces in the long run to
'wind' if there is no empirical support for the material. The excuse in the
past has been to lack of empirical data covering the dynamics of thought etc
but that is now being resolved day by day. Ignoring the research data is
akin to putting oneself in the same state as the mentioned rabbi and his
perspective of 'angels' (see above link).

The only reason I can see for ignoring the research is for the sake of
defending oneself where the specialist talents of writing skills are under
threat - you cannot bulldoze your way through life based on rhetoric alone -
it has been tried and shown to be a failure in contributing to resolving the
issues of our time; thus an upgrade in methodology is required where
adapting a set of patterns to live-by requires a little knowledge of one's
species nature beside one's singular nature.

Chris
http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/AbstractDomain.html

Bill, just this morning read these words of Camus. They seem
appropriate. Mary

"Conscious of not being able to separate myself from my time, I have
decided to become part of it."

"For those who feel solidarity with the world's destiny, the clash of
civilizations has something anguishing about it. I have made that
anguish my own and at the same time wished to play my role...Once must
choose between action and contemplation."

> -----Original Message-----
> From: existlist@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mary.josie59
> Sent: Saturday, 7 February 2009 3:11 PM
> To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [existlist] Re: Loonies on the path
>
> Bill, just this morning read these words of Camus. They seem
> appropriate. Mary
>
> "Conscious of not being able to separate myself from my time,
> I have decided to become part of it."
>

;-) this reflects a property of mediation - hitting paradox and so not able
to totally 'cut' what one considers a 'whole' from a more complex, if but
vague, whole; as such we cover metonymy vs metaphor. The focus on the static
will reduce to a point and in doing so hit upon the sensation of the
'infinite' - the inability to find a 'cut' other than one that is subjective
and in being subjective is not considered as 'true' (where 'truth' is
associated with symmetry and 'oneness'!). To experience this inability to
totally 'cut' from a complex pattern, see the sensory paradox examples in
http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/paradox.html where the infinite
oscillations possible reflect this cutting issue.

> "For those who feel solidarity with the world's destiny, the
> clash of civilizations has something anguishing about it. I
> have made that anguish my own and at the same time wished to
> play my role...Once must choose between action and contemplation."
>
>

"Free will" presents in the form of choices and they not as ideal, as
universals, but as local context sensitivities. Using universals LOCALLY can
aid in some local political dynamic but over the long run a more
context-sensitive approach is favoured. Thus analytical negation ('born
again') applies locally, dialectical negation ('keep the good bits') applies
globally.

The determinism inherent in genetically-determined species has developed
over a considerable timespan and covers the 'natural' response to living in
a thermodynamic universe - conservation of energy 'rules' and so a bias to
symmetry overall. Included in the determinism is 'purpose', all due to the
natural consequence of deriving meaning etc within a closed system in that
all that is possible is covered in the development of the neurology and its
sensory systems and so covers 'beginnings' and 'endings' - the recursion
involved (mapped to self-referencing and so self-organising systems) encodes
all categories within each and so encodes a 'purpose' element. It is this
element that such social typologies as the MBTI or HBDI or 'big-5' etc etc
pick up and the analysis of these methodologies moves us into in-depth
mappings of 'purpose' in each of us as members of neuron-dependent species.

The FAILURE of such rigid 'hard coding' is manifest in the development of
consciousness and so the emergence of our SINGULAR being, our unique self as
an agent of mediation. This development covers pressures on the mechanistic
nature of recursion where, given DEPTH in that development, a teleological
element emerges in the form of 'purpose' and on into the ability of a
self-referencing system, an autopeiotic system, to describe itself and so
elicit the use of analogy/metaphor for mediation/communication.

What emerges from this activity are such dichotomies as being/doing,
static/dynamic, object/relationships etc etc where the recursion of these
will elicit a dimension of classes of meaning usable to represent 'all that
is possible' given the bounds of the dichotomies. What is immediately
noticeable is an emerging issue of PRECISION, of resolution power, and with
that a focus on the dynamics of positive/negative feedback.

Repeated reductionism limits what is encapsulated by the positive feedback
in that within what has been encapsulated is negative feedback holding
things together - until one reduces to a point whereupon the definition of
'negative feedback' is lost since it cannot reduce to the dimensionless,
there must be some form of dimensionality present for 'negative feedback' to
apply.

Moving into the realm of the dimensionless covers the emergence of
infinities where such reflect an inability to reduce the dimensional to the
dimensionless in that the 'perfection' associated with a closed-system,
symmetry-grounded, topological perspective is not represent able other than
through irrational means (i.e. the infinite mantissa of irrational numbers
bring out the inability to reduce to 'points' - we are faced with the use of
rounding of values and so the contribution of the SUBJECTIVE at this level
of precision).

There is a tie here of infinity with 'oneness' and so coverage of a closed
system. OTOH the act of mediation involved introduces an asymmetric element
in the form of consciousness as language and so open system dynamics. Here
we note that mediation is grounded in uncertainty such that all languages,
when considered from a meta-language perspective, are naturally
'incomplete'. What THIS leads to is the realisation that to maintain an
asymmetric position one has to keep talking and storing all of that 'off
line' to then be taught to others; if one decides to stop, if one has had
enough of the perpetual production of prose, one has surrendered to the
symmetric, to energy conservation and social commitment. This CAN be
beneficial in that the period of mediation and so of serial-dominated
dynamics, should have refined one's intuition and so given one a good set of
skills to live by with little need for mediation; all is parallel, all is
stimulus-response, the life of an instincts/habits driven life form tied to
'routine' (a necessary physiological development where loss of huge amounts
of neurons as we age are covered by the routines we have learnt)

BUT there is still the need for more analysis, more mediation, and so
development of languages, re-development of languages; as some surrender to
symmetry so their works prior to such contribute to the overall perspective
offered by the language. Their lives after such reflect the degree of
internalisation of the language in the form of refined instincts/habits and
so patterns to live by 'intuitively'.

So - keep writing dudes - existentialism depends on it!

Chris
http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/AbstractDomain.html

This reflects your monomania and your obnoxious narcissism. You are more like
a stalker than a member here.

Wil

In a message dated 2/6/09 11:25:57 PM, lofting@... writes:


> ;-) this reflects a property of mediation - hitting paradox and so not able
> to totally 'cut' what one considers a 'whole' from a more complex, if but
> vague, whole; as such we cover metonymy vs metaphor. The focus on the static
> will reduce to a point and in doing so hit upon the sensation of the
> 'infinite' - the inability to find a 'cut' other than one that is subjective
> and in being subjective is not considered as 'true' (where 'truth' is
> associated with symmetry and 'oneness'!). To experience this inability to
> totally 'cut' from a complex pattern, see the sensory paradox examples in
> http://members.http://membehttp://membehttp://membershttp where the infinite
> oscillations possible reflect this cutting issue.
>
> > "For those who feel solidarity with the world's destiny, the
> > clash of civilizations has something anguishing about it. I
> > have made that anguish my own and at the same time wished to
> > play my role...Once must choose between action and contemplation.
> >
> >
>
> "Free will" presents in the form of choices and they not as ideal, as
> universals, but as local context sensitivities. Using universals LOCALLY can
> aid in some local political dynamic but over the long run a more
> context-sensitive approach is favoured. Thus analytical negation ('born
> again') applies locally, dialectical negation ('keep the good bits') applies
> globally.
>
> The determinism inherent in genetically- The determinism inherent in gen
> over a considerable timespan and covers the 'natural' response to living in
> a thermodynamic universe - conservation of energy 'rules' and so a bias to
> symmetry overall. Included in the determinism is 'purpose', all due to the
> natural consequence of deriving meaning etc within a closed system in that
> all that is possible is covered in the development of the neurology and its
> sensory systems and so covers 'beginnings' and 'endings' - the recursion
> involved (mapped to self-referencing and so self-organising systems) encodes
> all categories within each and so encodes a 'purpose' element. It is this
> element that such social typologies as the MBTI or HBDI or 'big-5' etc etc
> pick up and the analysis of these methodologies moves us into in-depth
> mappings of 'purpose' in each of us as members of neuron-dependent species.
>
> The FAILURE of such rigid 'hard coding' is manifest in the development of
> consciousness and so the emergence of our SINGULAR being, our unique self as
> an agent of mediation. This development covers pressures on the mechanistic
> nature of recursion where, given DEPTH in that development, a teleological
> element emerges in the form of 'purpose' and on into the ability of a
> self-referencing system, an autopeiotic system, to describe itself and so
> elicit the use of analogy/metaphor for mediation/communica elic
>
> What emerges from this activity are such dichotomies as being/doing,
> static/dynamic, object/relationship static/dynamic, object/relationship<w
> will elicit a dimension of classes of meaning usable to represent 'all that
> is possible' given the bounds of the dichotomies. What is immediately
> noticeable is an emerging issue of PRECISION, of resolution power, and with
> that a focus on the dynamics of positive/negative feedback.
>
> Repeated reductionism limits what is encapsulated by the positive feedback
> in that within what has been encapsulated is negative feedback holding
> things together - until one reduces to a point whereupon the definition of
> 'negative feedback' is lost since it cannot reduce to the dimensionless,
> there must be some form of dimensionality present for 'negative feedback' to
> apply.
>
> Moving into the realm of the dimensionless covers the emergence of
> infinities where such reflect an inability to reduce the dimensional to the
> dimensionless in that the 'perfection' associated with a closed-system,
> symmetry-grounded, topological perspective is not represent able other than
> through irrational means (i.e. the infinite mantissa of irrational numbers
> bring out the inability to reduce to 'points' - we are faced with the use of
> rounding of values and so the contribution of the SUBJECTIVE at this level
> of precision).
>
> There is a tie here of infinity with 'oneness' and so coverage of a closed
> system. OTOH the act of mediation involved introduces an asymmetric element
> in the form of consciousness as language and so open system dynamics. Here
> we note that mediation is grounded in uncertainty such that all languages,
> when considered from a meta-language perspective, are naturally
> 'incomplete' 'incomplete'<wbr>. What THIS leads to is the realisation t
> asymmetric position one has to keep talking and storing all of that 'off
> line' to then be taught to others; if one decides to stop, if one has had
> enough of the perpetual production of prose, one has surrendered to the
> symmetric, to energy conservation and social commitment. This CAN be
> beneficial in that the period of mediation and so of serial-dominated
> dynamics, should have refined one's intuition and so given one a good set of
> skills to live by with little need for mediation; all is parallel, all is
> stimulus-response, the life of an instincts/habits driven life form tied to
> 'routine' (a necessary physiological development where loss of huge amounts
> of neurons as we age are covered by the routines we have learnt)
>
> BUT there is still the need for more analysis, more mediation, and so
> development of languages, re-development of languages; as some surrender to
> symmetry so their works prior to such contribute to the overall perspective
> offered by the language. Their lives after such reflect the degree of
> internalisation of the language in the form of refined instincts/habits and
> so patterns to live by 'intuitively'
>
> So - keep writing dudes - existentialism depends on it!
>
> Chris
>




**************
Nothing says I love you like flowers! Find a florist near you
now.
(http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=florist&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000001)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: existlist@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eupraxis@...
> Sent: Sunday, 8 February 2009 12:25 AM
> To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Loonies on the path
>
> This reflects your monomania and your obnoxious narcissism.

LOL! you need to be more specific Wil. Throwing these sorts of labels is
just 'wind'. Where specifically are there issues with what I wrote and an
existentialist perspective? if you cannot deal with the dynamics of
enantiodromia then you have a problem in the context of the evolution of
existentialism - suffering will, over time, develop into discernment, a
positive from a negative. etc etc etc. Are you that paralysed that you
cannot make the journey? LOL! get a gripe dude, you can contribute but it
will obviously need some work!

Chris
http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/AbstractDomain.html

The red herring fish monger  is busy. Who he truly  represents will
never be known, unless  the great conspiracy can be broken open and
the truth  spills out. When we try to examine the world situation we
run up against  many fools and corrupt facades. We will have
indictments or we will fade as a civil society. The  players in the
great housing debacle are slowly emerging as punk  business crooks
but their political cover  remains hidden. The corruption  on a local
level is huge. Criminals  are covering their asses  and trying to
smear legitimate   investigations and investigators. As Wil has
surmised we deal with our own terrorist here and  it  has backing of
unknown origin. I refuse to read  his crap and will work to uncover
his source of mania. In the mean time  I hope to support our young
president as he  works  to rebuild all  that has been ruined by the
right wing  theocracy that has  gripped us. I fear we will see
economic terrorism  dove tail with Bush/ Chaney counter terrorism and
find  a twisted core of ideologues pushing their greedy schemes and
anti democratic agenda.
Beating them back in the senate is a great beginning and when we get
the money we can hire the lawyers and begin the real work. I could at
this moment  list many local  slime balls who  need time behind bars
but all in proper sequence. The good moderates who  are standing up
in the senate should be  supported . Olimpia Snow  and Sen Susan
Collins are brave Americans.
We will reclaim this  country for rational governance and then  we
can sort through  the lies and conspiracies that have held us in
terror. We know the big names and  some of the small names but those
in the muted press can and will fill in the blanks. Those still
unmentioned  will  pull out all the stops to remain with the
appearance of innocence but the grim truth will win out.
  The obstructionists  will show us the  cabal and their fear and
corruption  will undo them. We may never know the whys but the whos
can be known by  that furtive  syntax and deceptive writing.
Existentialism remains a fine standard as the battle rages about us.
The never ending attack from strange quarters and loonies attests to
its power. Clean thinking and  iron resolve will win out. Don`t
believe me just watch. Bill

All right, children. Play nice and no more name calling. Discussions
seem to be getting a little heated and rude. Remember, this is just a
discussion group about philosophy -- it isn't important enough to get
emotionally worked up about. Also, let's drop the political topics
unless is directly relates to philosophy.


- Susan

I am reading Being and Nothingness right now. I'm about halfway through
it. And I am impressed.

Sartre is more Cartesian than Descartes ever was. And that isn't
necessarily a "bad thing" either. He is making some very good points
about the centrality of the cogito. Points that Descartes and the early
generation of Cartesians, of course, could not have seen. Points that
Husserl, as Cartesian as Husserl claims to be, apparently totally
missed. But I am withholding judgment on that, for now. At least, until
after I get to Husserl's Crisis. Maybe longer. I see some of the major
gaps in my reading now. I need to go back and pick up Locke, Berkeley,
Hume. But the Crisis will be my next reading task. It is Husserl's
ostensive answer to the existentialist movement. I want to see what
Husserl had to say about it. And...Sartre takes Heidegger to task for
sidestepping the cogito, the fact of subjectivity, entirely. Now there
is a point to consider. Obviously, when Heidegger says "Dasein" he
means human being. But without consciousness taken explicitly into
account, can that formulation really be to the point? Is that, perhaps,
what Wil was driving at a while back when he took Heidegger to task for
losing subjectivity in a negative theology? Anyway, there really is a
sense in which, when it comes right down to it, we are ALL Cartesians
in this day and age. Our subjectivity, and what that is all about, has
become our central philosophical issue. We should not ignore that or
try to explain it away. It seems to me that a Cartesianism and an
Existentialism would go hand in hand. What do you all think about that?

Hb3g

--- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Susan Schnelbach <susan@...> wrote:
>
> All right, children. Play nice and no more name calling. Discussions
> seem to be getting a little heated and rude. Remember, this is just
a
> discussion group about philosophy -- it isn't important enough to
get
> emotionally worked up about. Also, let's drop the political topics
> unless is directly relates to philosophy.
>
>
> - Susan
>

--- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Susan Schnelbach <susan@...> wrote:
>
> All right, children. Play nice and no more name calling.
Discussions
> seem to be getting a little heated and rude. Remember, this is just
a
> discussion group about philosophy -- it isn't important enough to
get
> emotionally worked up about. Also, let's drop the political topics
> unless is directly relates to philosophy.
>
>
> - Susan
>Philosophy of  education. It appears education is a prime target for
reductions in the stimulus package. There seems bipartisan rejection
of higher spending on education. People do not like the orientation
of educational philosophy. They come from all over the political
spectrum and dislike education for  multiple reasons.
This trite phiolophy stuff may not seem important to  an educator who
just follows the lesson plans but some people see the glaring
philosophical failure in education as  part of the WWC. That is why
you are being cut. Is that important to you? It is to me  but
probably for different reasons. The post modernist hocus pocus with
correctness and deconstruction is not  well accepted by  a growing
majority of tax payers. Any comments? Bill

I  agree that Sartre is  much  better than Heidegger , he  is actually
fun to read. Also he does not give me  a headache and occasionally
makes me smile. Then again Camus is a great storyteller and his prose
flows . I  will continue to follow your perusal of JPS . Thanks,Bill

> -----Original Message-----
> From: existlist@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Herman B. Triplegood
> Sent: Sunday, 8 February 2009 9:43 AM
> To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [existlist] Re: Against bad manners
>
<snip> Our subjectivity, and what
> that is all about, has become our central philosophical
> issue. We should not ignore that or try to explain it away.
> It seems to me that a Cartesianism and an Existentialism
> would go hand in hand. What do you all think about that?
>

The cogito perspective covers the emergence of proactive mediation dynamics
where self-referencing and self-organising systems develop. Physiologically
a sensory stimulus is met with an inappropriate, immediate, response and
mediation develops. In lesser life forms the mediation is 'mindless' and
covers a life form trying out its full repertoire of possible responses and
so 'out of context' behaviours in attempts to resolve the issue
(biochemically we get down to enzyme dynamics and the nature of catalysts).
With neural complexity comes emergence from mechanistic dynamics of a
teleological element in the form of pattern matching (analogy making) and
planning and on into language formation. As such the mediation involved in
resolving some issue is now communicatable to others and so speeds up
learning in a social context.

The essential feature of the cogito is DELAY in response and we can see this
at work in the laboratory where when learning there is a delay of at least
half a second in responses until the habit has formed at a level where
awareness is no longer needed and the delay disappears as we fall back on
stimulus/response. The initial discovery of this delay element in
experiments raised some issues about consciousness for those not willing to
accept that a lot of our behaviour is unconscious. See such as:

Pockett, S., Banks, W., & Gallagher, S., (eds)(2006)"Does Consciousness
Cause Behavior?" MITP

The emergence of a sense of self takes about two years to develop post
birth. This sense has been identified in humans, monkeys, dolphins, birds,
elephants etc where the common test is the 'mirror' test - getting the life
form to recognise itself in a mirror. The DIFFERENCES are in the huge mass
of neurons and their rich connectivities that we have as humans compared to
other neuron-dependent life forms. The rich connectivities are essential and
our long development time (upto early 20s for frontal lobe development
completion) gives us a huge advantage in developing proactive mediation
skills. The dynamics of our symmetric nature as a determined species (and so
a closed system) is extended to cover local context interactions (open
system dynamics), positive feedback (and so high levels of discretisation
and amplification), high sample rates (differentiating with high precision),
where such contribute to the development of self-organising systems - we
take on unique identity that can contribute to the species as a whole.

Environmental pressures bring out a demand for more and more
distinction-making and so more and more border creations (positive feedback
at work). What THIS does is let loose what lives on borders -
complexity/chaos dynamics. As such a social whole will start to fragment and
life in general 'speeds up' and become less determined, more competitive,
and we move into probabilistic thinking over deductive thinking.

The movement into probabilistic thinking introduces us to a realm of
uncertainty/doubt and THAT realm is the ground from which mediation dynamics
is born. This realm is useful in that it aids in 'refining' the deductive
thinking of symmetry, we refine our instincts/habits and so benefit from
energy conservation as we age. HOWEVER, we also note that the fragmenting of
a whole into parts or 'lesser wholes' also leads to emergence of new wholes
(gets into economic dynamics, corporation formations, monopoly capitalism
etc); we see the dynamics of self-organisation at work where a dynamic
context demands change to keep up with development, and that includes
fragmentation/re-configuration; symmetry without direction becomes sterile,
decadence, 'post modern' ;-) Overall there is a movement from the
cooperative to the competitive to the cooperative etc - in a sociological
sense this is a movement from the egalitarian to the aristocratic to the
egalitarian etc and is covered in recent work on small world networks etc.

The development of consciousness as language covers the emergence of
mediation dynamics in dealing with local contexts and as such grounds
language/consciousness in uncertainty. This ground is discoverable when we
move to meta-level analysis of specialist languages - such as Gödel's focus
on mathematics or Heisenberg's focus on basic physics. NOT understanding the
dynamics of the neurology has led to a perspective of uncertainty being the
ground of the universe when in fact it is only the ground of mediation.
Certainty is in the realm of the UNCONSCIOUS in the form of
instincts/habits/memories. What is implicit in this is that to maintain the
precision possible in mediation we have to (a) store the mediation processes
and (b) never stop mediating since to do so is to surrender to symmetry and
so live off instincts/habits and so fall back on approximations, on generals
and so lose local context sensitivity (and that includes the dynamics of
subjectivity).

The essential feature here in regard to consciousness is in its emergence
from relational space, mediation space, and so its dependence on movement,
on dynamics, to exist. If there is nothing to mediate we fall back on
instincts/habits aka auto-pilot. This focus presents us with the perspective
of the monadic of Leibnitz (symmetry bias, the 'one', a closed system) and
the dyadic perspective of Descartes (anti-symmetry/asymmetry where a parts
perspective can be transcended by emergence of a unique form out of
relational space - this can also elicit paradox).

Given the dynamics of existentialism, the lived perspective that demands
mediation at all times with local context, so its grounding is in the cogito
and with that comes the at time chronic sense of uncertainty.

Chris
http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/AbstractDomain.html

> -----Original Message-----
> From: existlist@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of bhvwd
> Sent: Sunday, 8 February 2009 9:48 AM
> To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [existlist] Re: Against bad manners
>
> --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Susan Schnelbach <susan@...> wrote:
> >
> > All right, children. Play nice and no more name calling.
> Discussions
> > seem to be getting a little heated and rude. Remember, this is just
> a
> > discussion group about philosophy -- it isn't important enough to
> get
> > emotionally worked up about. Also, let's drop the political topics
> > unless is directly relates to philosophy.
> >
> >
> > - Susan
> >Philosophy of  education. It appears education is a prime target for
> reductions in the stimulus package. There seems bipartisan
> rejection of higher spending on education. People do not like
> the orientation of educational philosophy. They come from all
> over the political spectrum and dislike education for
> multiple reasons.

The path to higher education is a path to de-socialisation (social
fragmentation as individuals learn to 'fight' for themselves). The core
focus on education is socialisation at the primary/secondary/cheap-tertiary
levels. The other form of education is education for understanding and that
can be considered 'dangerous' to the current crop of politicians etc. High
level tertiary education or extreme specialist master-apprentice education
can be interpreted as a waste of money - it does not maintain the capitalist
turn-over requirements of goods and services within a generation. The
standard sequence of PROCESS is defined by four categories - production,
distribution, filtration, exchange. These then break down into:

production: re-production, new production
distribution: external, internal (aka consumption)
filtration: unconditional, conditional
exchange: competitive, cooperative

re-production is less costly than new production.
unconditional filtration is less costly then conditional (the latter where
quality control is in the hands of subjectivity rather than imposed from
without).
competitive exchange is less costly than cooperative in that the latter sets
up dependencies that can 'block' extremes where it is in extremes that
capitalism makes money (the current crisis was predicated some time ago and
many 'in the know' got out then - mindful greed dominated mindless greed -
or else used the bail-out money 'inappropriately')

Extended education expands the 'filtration' realm and that is detrimental to
capitalism that prefers that area to be only dominated by 'market forces'.

The high end education is thus sold to capitalism to cover the R&D costs or
else are covered in joint university/corporate development. The latter is an
issue in that it can 'corrupt' 'education for understanding' in that the
understanding is copyrighted etc and access restricted and so if filtration
cannot be stopped other than for 'market forces' then it is managed by
capitalism itself - potential filtering rules etc are restricted/delayed in
publication/release or made too costly for the average person to acquire.

The attraction of higher education is for the more asymmetric thinkers
where, on the other hand, most are maintained at a symmetric level of
thinking, social/dream-like, repetition, reflection etc (all properties of
symmetry) dominate.

AN issue is with the selling of PhDs where the requirements have become
increasingly specialist (to a level of being potentially meaningless outside
of a very few) or commercially sponsored and/or dumbed down - symmetrised.
In a country where education is mostly free, public scrutiny of PhD work can
raise eyebrows from a social perspective (usually brought to attention by
the press) - 'why are we spending hundreds of thousands on some research PhD
into the life cycle of a specialist worm living in a 1/2 acre plot of grass
on the south side of a particular mountain when our schools and hospitals
are short staffed due to lack of funds?' etc etc etc

Note that these days, due to the past conservative government, public
university comes with fees in the form of a government loan that is then
paid off (automatically deducted from one's salary as part of tax) after one
has graduated and starts to earn an income beyond a certain amount.  There
is also a second level of entry into university through paying upfront for
those who did not make it with high entry scores.

Most of that government got THEIR degrees for nix. The public universities
also had their funding cut and were encouraged to seek out funds from
corporations and so opened up issues of possible 'corruptions' - something
already present in selling degrees, dropping standards to attract overseas
students with money etc etc.

From a SPECIES perspective, the development path has been to the emergence
of reason from emotion and consciousness from reason. The DEMAND is to
educate the brain, more so our frontal lobes/pre-frontal cortex and so how
to use top-down regulation of our primate instincts; to use delay to refine
our instincts if not to suppress them. Without that level of education all
we have are 'smart apes' (as well as issues where our physiological
development is slower than the demands of a consciousness-dominated society
and we can be forced to 'grow up' prematurely).

Chris
http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/AbstractDomain.html

chris,

if in fact you are not simply a computer-generated plant from the
fascist fringe, would you be so good as to advise me on how to manage
my paranoia?  i keep thinking that people dont trust me because im
black.  considering i have been deceived all my life by my own skin,
it leaves me most confused.  what is your opinion on the entitlement
of subliminally trans-racial types to mainstream education?  anything
you write will be noted and may be used in evidence against you at the
great future court of justice where all tears will be wiped away.

Louise
... missing life at the list

--- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "louise" <hecubatoher@...> wrote:
>
> chris,
>
> if in fact you are not simply a computer-generated plant from the
> fascist fringe, would you be so good as to advise me on how to manage
> my paranoia?  i keep thinking that people dont trust me because im
> black.  considering i have been deceived all my life by my own skin,
> it leaves me most confused.  what is your opinion on the entitlement
> of subliminally trans-racial types to mainstream education?  anything
> you write will be noted and may be used in evidence against you at the
> great future court of justice where all tears will be wiped away.
>
> Louise
> ... missing life at the list


Louise,

Welcome back.
Tom
>