db,

<<<< A person may raises a gun and shoots someone, that in itself is
not evil. If
they do it in anger, or self defense or the defense of another, that
is not
evil. If they take a life for the the fun of it the thrill of it, that
is
evil, no interpretation needed. >>>>

If you take a gun and kill someone, the evil of it will be determined
by a jury of your peers ...

eduard

What's the step stool for??

  canis os <dawgbone86406@...> wrote:I have heard that a step stool and a
vibrater is all a woman need to replace
a man.
db






----Original Message Follows----
From: eduard <yeoman@...>
Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [existlist] being bad or good ....
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 18:01:42 -0500

shari,

Did you see the article that the male DNA is slowly degrading.  There
may well be only women in the world.  But then it is supposed to occur
in a million years, so I doubt that either of us will have to worry
about women playing rugby.

I see 2514 as being a time when everything is taken over by androids
and humans will be devoting themselves to mental processes.  For the
new year, I am going to try to develop a lucid dream.  That is to be
able to manipulate my dreams whilst still in a dream.

eduard



-----Original Message-----
From: shari hyder [mailto:hydersjmj@...]
Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 5:46 PM
To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [existlist] being bad or good ....


Eduard,

"Dead Man Walking" is a phrase I'm sure you know is used as a prisoner
is being walked to a gas chamber/injection. The movie is based on true
events. I saw it in 96, but the feeling of wanting to smack the nun is
what makes me remember it.

Two guys, in a drug/alcohol induced frenzy, chance upon a couple
'making
out' in the woods. They make the young man watch, and both are then
murdered.

Caught, one of the two low-lives is visited by a nun. The low life is
played by Sean Penn, the nun, I cannot recall the name, although her
face appears in my mind. Yes, I wanna smack that face.

Watch it, by all means. I take no responsibility for a spate of nun
smacking that may well follow in ....... Canada?

Yes, am looking forward to this year. Have signed up for 3 papers. Two
in Philosophy (Intro to Ethics & Ethical Theory 2); and one in
Psychology (Intro to Clinical Psychology). Back to Campus in March.

Yes, your year 2514. I have not given it much thought, but your prompt
of huwomanity elicits a response of "God forbid!"  There are 3 things
women should never be allowed to do.

One, play cricket. Two, play rugby. Three, be on frontlines of war.

shari


Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
(Includes community book list, chat, and more.)

TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


_________________________________________________________________
STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail


Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT

Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
(Includes community book list, chat, and more.)

TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



---------------------------------
Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

So you can reach the top shelf, and won't won't have to ask us to do it:)
db






----Original Message Follows----
From: Lorna Landry <lornalandry@...>
Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [existlist] being bad or good ....
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 14:20:59 -0500 (EST)

What's the step stool for??

   canis os <dawgbone86406@...> wrote:I have heard that a step stool
and a vibrater is all a woman need to replace
a man.
db






----Original Message Follows----
From: eduard <yeoman@...>
Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [existlist] being bad or good ....
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 18:01:42 -0500

shari,

Did you see the article that the male DNA is slowly degrading.  There
may well be only women in the world.  But then it is supposed to occur
in a million years, so I doubt that either of us will have to worry
about women playing rugby.

I see 2514 as being a time when everything is taken over by androids
and humans will be devoting themselves to mental processes.  For the
new year, I am going to try to develop a lucid dream.  That is to be
able to manipulate my dreams whilst still in a dream.

eduard



-----Original Message-----
From: shari hyder [mailto:hydersjmj@...]
Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 5:46 PM
To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [existlist] being bad or good ....


Eduard,

"Dead Man Walking" is a phrase I'm sure you know is used as a prisoner
is being walked to a gas chamber/injection. The movie is based on true
events. I saw it in 96, but the feeling of wanting to smack the nun is
what makes me remember it.

Two guys, in a drug/alcohol induced frenzy, chance upon a couple
'making
out' in the woods. They make the young man watch, and both are then
murdered.

Caught, one of the two low-lives is visited by a nun. The low life is
played by Sean Penn, the nun, I cannot recall the name, although her
face appears in my mind. Yes, I wanna smack that face.

Watch it, by all means. I take no responsibility for a spate of nun
smacking that may well follow in ....... Canada?

Yes, am looking forward to this year. Have signed up for 3 papers. Two
in Philosophy (Intro to Ethics & Ethical Theory 2); and one in
Psychology (Intro to Clinical Psychology). Back to Campus in March.

Yes, your year 2514. I have not given it much thought, but your prompt
of huwomanity elicits a response of "God forbid!"  There are 3 things
women should never be allowed to do.

One, play cricket. Two, play rugby. Three, be on frontlines of war.

shari


Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
(Includes community book list, chat, and more.)

TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


_________________________________________________________________
STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail


Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT

Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
(Includes community book list, chat, and more.)

TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



---------------------------------
Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

ahh, db, I see!

I thought it had some 'special' use in conjunction with the vibrator!

Lorna


  canis os <dawgbone86406@...> wrote:So you can reach the top shelf, and
won't won't have to ask us to do it:)
db






----Original Message Follows----
From: Lorna Landry <lornalandry@...>
Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [existlist] being bad or good ....
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 14:20:59 -0500 (EST)

What's the step stool for??

   canis os <dawgbone86406@...> wrote:I have heard that a step stool
and a vibrater is all a woman need to replace
a man.
db






----Original Message Follows----
From: eduard <yeoman@...>
Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [existlist] being bad or good ....
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 18:01:42 -0500

shari,

Did you see the article that the male DNA is slowly degrading.  There
may well be only women in the world.  But then it is supposed to occur
in a million years, so I doubt that either of us will have to worry
about women playing rugby.

I see 2514 as being a time when everything is taken over by androids
and humans will be devoting themselves to mental processes.  For the
new year, I am going to try to develop a lucid dream.  That is to be
able to manipulate my dreams whilst still in a dream.

eduard



-----Original Message-----
From: shari hyder [mailto:hydersjmj@...]
Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 5:46 PM
To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [existlist] being bad or good ....


Eduard,

"Dead Man Walking" is a phrase I'm sure you know is used as a prisoner
is being walked to a gas chamber/injection. The movie is based on true
events. I saw it in 96, but the feeling of wanting to smack the nun is
what makes me remember it.

Two guys, in a drug/alcohol induced frenzy, chance upon a couple
'making
out' in the woods. They make the young man watch, and both are then
murdered.

Caught, one of the two low-lives is visited by a nun. The low life is
played by Sean Penn, the nun, I cannot recall the name, although her
face appears in my mind. Yes, I wanna smack that face.

Watch it, by all means. I take no responsibility for a spate of nun
smacking that may well follow in ....... Canada?

Yes, am looking forward to this year. Have signed up for 3 papers. Two
in Philosophy (Intro to Ethics & Ethical Theory 2); and one in
Psychology (Intro to Clinical Psychology). Back to Campus in March.

Yes, your year 2514. I have not given it much thought, but your prompt
of huwomanity elicits a response of "God forbid!"  There are 3 things
women should never be allowed to do.

One, play cricket. Two, play rugby. Three, be on frontlines of war.

shari


Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
(Includes community book list, chat, and more.)

TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


_________________________________________________________________
STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail


Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT

Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
(Includes community book list, chat, and more.)

TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



---------------------------------
Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus


Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT

Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
(Includes community book list, chat, and more.)

TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



---------------------------------
Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

No, the the jury does not determine evil, they are supposed to bring justice
to the event. Not deside if the event was evil or not.
db






----Original Message Follows----
From: eduard <yeoman@...>
Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [existlist] evil
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 13:59:00 -0500

db,

<<<< A person may raises a gun and shoots someone, that in itself is
not evil. If
they do it in anger, or self defense or the defense of another, that
is not
evil. If they take a life for the the fun of it the thrill of it, that
is
evil, no interpretation needed. >>>>

If you take a gun and kill someone, the evil of it will be determined
by a jury of your peers ...

eduard



_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

Well, I guess you could stand on the step stool and jump on the vibrater:)
db






----Original Message Follows----
From: Lorna Landry <lornalandry@...>
Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [existlist] being bad or good ....
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 15:11:11 -0500 (EST)


ahh, db, I see!

I thought it had some 'special' use in conjunction with the vibrator!

Lorna


   canis os <dawgbone86406@...> wrote:So you can reach the top shelf,
and won't won't have to ask us to do it:)
db






----Original Message Follows----
From: Lorna Landry <lornalandry@...>
Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [existlist] being bad or good ....
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 14:20:59 -0500 (EST)

What's the step stool for??

    canis os <dawgbone86406@...> wrote:I have heard that a step stool
and a vibrater is all a woman need to replace
a man.
db






----Original Message Follows----
From: eduard <yeoman@...>
Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [existlist] being bad or good ....
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 18:01:42 -0500

shari,

Did you see the article that the male DNA is slowly degrading.  There
may well be only women in the world.  But then it is supposed to occur
in a million years, so I doubt that either of us will have to worry
about women playing rugby.

I see 2514 as being a time when everything is taken over by androids
and humans will be devoting themselves to mental processes.  For the
new year, I am going to try to develop a lucid dream.  That is to be
able to manipulate my dreams whilst still in a dream.

eduard



-----Original Message-----
From: shari hyder [mailto:hydersjmj@...]
Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 5:46 PM
To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [existlist] being bad or good ....


Eduard,

"Dead Man Walking" is a phrase I'm sure you know is used as a prisoner
is being walked to a gas chamber/injection. The movie is based on true
events. I saw it in 96, but the feeling of wanting to smack the nun is
what makes me remember it.

Two guys, in a drug/alcohol induced frenzy, chance upon a couple
'making
out' in the woods. They make the young man watch, and both are then
murdered.

Caught, one of the two low-lives is visited by a nun. The low life is
played by Sean Penn, the nun, I cannot recall the name, although her
face appears in my mind. Yes, I wanna smack that face.

Watch it, by all means. I take no responsibility for a spate of nun
smacking that may well follow in ....... Canada?

Yes, am looking forward to this year. Have signed up for 3 papers. Two
in Philosophy (Intro to Ethics & Ethical Theory 2); and one in
Psychology (Intro to Clinical Psychology). Back to Campus in March.

Yes, your year 2514. I have not given it much thought, but your prompt
of huwomanity elicits a response of "God forbid!"  There are 3 things
women should never be allowed to do.

One, play cricket. Two, play rugby. Three, be on frontlines of war.

shari


Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
(Includes community book list, chat, and more.)

TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


_________________________________________________________________
STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail


Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT

Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
(Includes community book list, chat, and more.)

TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



---------------------------------
Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus


Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT

Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
(Includes community book list, chat, and more.)

TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



---------------------------------
Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

Or how about jumping on the vibrator, while standing on the step stool! ;) That
may very well be quite the balancing act!
  canis os <dawgbone86406@...> wrote:Well, I guess you could stand on the
step stool and jump on the vibrater:)
db






----Original Message Follows----
From: Lorna Landry <lornalandry@...>
Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [existlist] being bad or good ....
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 15:11:11 -0500 (EST)


ahh, db, I see!

I thought it had some 'special' use in conjunction with the vibrator!

Lorna


   canis os <dawgbone86406@...> wrote:So you can reach the top shelf,
and won't won't have to ask us to do it:)
db






----Original Message Follows----
From: Lorna Landry <lornalandry@...>
Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [existlist] being bad or good ....
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 14:20:59 -0500 (EST)

What's the step stool for??

    canis os <dawgbone86406@...> wrote:I have heard that a step stool
and a vibrater is all a woman need to replace
a man.
db






----Original Message Follows----
From: eduard <yeoman@...>
Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [existlist] being bad or good ....
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 18:01:42 -0500

shari,

Did you see the article that the male DNA is slowly degrading.  There
may well be only women in the world.  But then it is supposed to occur
in a million years, so I doubt that either of us will have to worry
about women playing rugby.

I see 2514 as being a time when everything is taken over by androids
and humans will be devoting themselves to mental processes.  For the
new year, I am going to try to develop a lucid dream.  That is to be
able to manipulate my dreams whilst still in a dream.

eduard



-----Original Message-----
From: shari hyder [mailto:hydersjmj@...]
Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 5:46 PM
To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [existlist] being bad or good ....


Eduard,

"Dead Man Walking" is a phrase I'm sure you know is used as a prisoner
is being walked to a gas chamber/injection. The movie is based on true
events. I saw it in 96, but the feeling of wanting to smack the nun is
what makes me remember it.

Two guys, in a drug/alcohol induced frenzy, chance upon a couple
'making
out' in the woods. They make the young man watch, and both are then
murdered.

Caught, one of the two low-lives is visited by a nun. The low life is
played by Sean Penn, the nun, I cannot recall the name, although her
face appears in my mind. Yes, I wanna smack that face.

Watch it, by all means. I take no responsibility for a spate of nun
smacking that may well follow in ....... Canada?

Yes, am looking forward to this year. Have signed up for 3 papers. Two
in Philosophy (Intro to Ethics & Ethical Theory 2); and one in
Psychology (Intro to Clinical Psychology). Back to Campus in March.

Yes, your year 2514. I have not given it much thought, but your prompt
of huwomanity elicits a response of "God forbid!"  There are 3 things
women should never be allowed to do.

One, play cricket. Two, play rugby. Three, be on frontlines of war.

shari


Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
(Includes community book list, chat, and more.)

TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


_________________________________________________________________
STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail


Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT

Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
(Includes community book list, chat, and more.)

TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



---------------------------------
Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus


Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT

Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
(Includes community book list, chat, and more.)

TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



---------------------------------
Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus


Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT

Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
(Includes community book list, chat, and more.)

TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



---------------------------------
Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Eduard wrote:

> It is too bad we don't have a herd of pigs [or is it sheep] to put
> evil into


I think it is called 'Iraqu'. ;-)


Mark

ALLA är bakfulla idag
puss

MINA  FÖRORTER HAR FÖRÖKAT SIG.


Sillfrukost  ( ute i kammaren)  78: 50_

Dubmix av solfångartorstens brallmax:  78 : 000

Noll Noll Noll

=

0




Masterna  syns fortfarande -vill du(vi) öppna  tangentinställningar )ÅJ!!!


Jävlar Š.en hel  årstidŠ..

Måste tjutaŠ.

Jok-=9   /##&%/&/&((/  EN AFTON I MAJ VA  HIMLEN BLÅ OCH FRI . DET
FANNS BLANKA ÖGON SOM SIMMADE UNDER YTAN.(walden-theroux.small indian
goobla correction. DEAD MAN WOKKING---thats baaaaaaaaaaadasss,yummie
gringo  Šheidegger.moussee

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

the best I can translate is:
REMEMBER SUBURB HAD PROPAGATE Themselves ....  ??????

eduard

-----Original Message-----
From: Kjell Alinge [mailto:alinge@...]
Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 3:44 PM
To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [existlist] (unknown)


MINA  FÖRORTER HAR FÖRÖKAT SIG.


Sillfrukost  ( ute i kammaren)  78: 50_

Dubmix av solfångartorstens brallmax:  78 : 000

Noll Noll Noll

=

0




Masterna  syns fortfarande -vill du(vi) öppna
  tangentinställningar )ÅJ!!!


Jävlar Š.en hel  årstidŠ..

Måste tjutaŠ.

Jok-=9   /##&%/&/&((/  EN AFTON I MAJ VA  HIMLEN BLÅ OCH FRI . DET
FANNS BLANKA ÖGON SOM SIMMADE UNDER YTAN.(walden-theroux.small indian
goobla correction. DEAD MAN WOKKING---thats baaaaaaaaaaadasss,yummie
gringo  Šheidegger.moussee

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
(Includes community book list, chat, and more.)

TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

>A person may raises a gun and shoots someone, that in itself is not evil. If
>they do it in anger, or self defense or the defense of another, that is not
>evil. If they take a life for the the fun of it the thrill of it, that is
>evil, no interpretation needed.
>db

to understand is first



interpretation is sort of the same


not quite


all these words should be distilled down to a few...


anger.  evil.  thrill   fun


is this a  discussionversion of disneyland


sorry if i am rude


or maybe evil


???

who is evil on this list???

let´s hear it!!!

if there exists no evil within these walls  we can prolly deduce that
the same goes for the planet.


kjell

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kjell,

<<<< anger.  evil.  thrill   fun >>>>

But then there is no sense to it ...

<<<< is this a  discussionversion of disneyland >>>>

Perhaps

<<<< if there exists no evil within these walls  we can prolly deduce
that
the same goes for the planet. >>>>

How do you deduce that???

eduard

>Kjell,
>
><<<< anger.  evil.  thrill   fun >>>>
>
>But then there is no sense to it ...
>
><<<< is this a  discussionversion of disneyland >>>>
>
>Perhaps
>
><<<< if there exists no evil within these walls  we can prolly deduce
>that
>the same goes for the planet. >>>>
>
>How do you deduce that???
>
>eduard
>
i´m confused. we can keep spinning this. i was trying to  reduce some
very new agey factors

was all

kjell


>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>ADVERTISEMENT
><http://rd.yahoo.com/M=234081.2814790.4175286.1925585/D=egroupweb/S=1705689216:\
HM/A=1327985/R=0/*http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;4870024;7586687;x?http://www.ame\
riquestmortgage.com/welcome.html?ad=Yahoo01>
>
>
>
>Our Home:
><http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlis\
t
>(Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
>
>TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
>existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kjell,

<<<< i´m confused. we can keep spinning this. i was trying to  reduce
some
very new agey factors was all >>>>

I'm confused, as well.  The issue was the existence of evil.  My point
was that it exists within the mind.

eduard

>Kjell,
>
><<<< i´m confused. we can keep spinning this. i was trying to  reduce
>some
>very new agey factors was all >>>>
>
>I'm confused, as well.  The issue was the existence of evil.  My point
>was that it exists within the mind.
>
>eduard


ok


i  will be bold

i have scanned my mind

no evil there....

i have also  thought about any evil minds that i have come
across...all the people i have met
    any evil persons..?
none


are you talking about the horrible effects that we all can
see--murders, beatings.lies. betrayal..?  ...in real life and in
media...



the vicious circle from generation to  generation...



?

evil is  too simple  a word for all these things...


kjell..too simple and also  rooted in a  way of thinking that  has
more to do with the 19th century...which we might still be
in....philosophy-wise.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kjell,

<<<<
i have also  thought about any evil minds that i have come
across...all the people i have met
    any evil persons..?
none

are you talking about the horrible effects that we all can
see--murders, beatings.lies. betrayal..?  ...in real life and in
media...

the vicious circle from generation to  generation...
>>>>

I can think of bigotry as a form of evil that is in the mind, and
which can travel as a sort of mental virus through the community.

eduard

Kjell,

There are many different ways to look at the existence of evil. The
contemporary perspectives are:

* Biological/medical perspectives;
* Psychodynamic perspectives;
* Learning perspectives;
* Humanistic-Existential perspectives;
* Cognitive perspectives;
* Sociocultural perspectives.


I may have misunderstood you, but would it be fair to say you state you
have never met an evil person? If that assessment is correct, I'd
suggest you start reading about evil persons.

Go online and read about WW2. Pick one person (not Hitler), whom you
think is evil, and why. Or read about MyLai in Nam for what transpired
on March 16 1968. That may give you an insight into group evil.

Pick any of the above perspectives; and think about how you may explain
what happened in relation to the perspective chosen.



shari





---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.431 / Virus Database: 242 - Release Date: 17/12/2002

>Kjell,
>
>There are many different ways to look at the existence of evil. The
>contemporary perspectives are:
>
>* Biological/medical perspectives;
>* Psychodynamic perspectives;
>* Learning perspectives;
>* Humanistic-Existential perspectives;
>* Cognitive perspectives;
>* Sociocultural perspectives.
>
>
>I may have misunderstood you, but would it be fair to say you state you
>have never met an evil person? If that assessment is correct, I'd
>suggest you start reading about evil persons.
>
>Go online and read about WW2. Pick one person (not Hitler), whom you
>think is evil, and why. Or read about MyLai in Nam for what transpired
>on March 16 1968. That may give you an insight into group evil.
>
>Pick any of the above perspectives; and think about how you may explain
>what happened in relation to the perspective chosen.
>
>
>
>shari
>

I am very well read.

I have read the whole of Mein Kampf.

Which is written by a  very  disturbed and  ignorant person.  Who
has been abused since childhood.

The EVIL ..No.

Sorry ... I picked mr Adolf.. but he still is a perfect example.


I  am well aware of all the atrocities  ... Fascism is  a  good starting point.

Those attracted  to it  are  all  scared out of their minds.

kjell

Kjell,

Help me to understand what you are thinking.

1) Do you believe evil exists?

2) What is Hitler the perfect example of?

shari



I am very well read.

I have read the whole of Mein Kampf.

Which is written by a  very  disturbed and  ignorant person.  Who
has been abused since childhood.

The EVIL ..No.

Sorry ... I picked mr Adolf.. but he still is a perfect example.


I  am well aware of all the atrocities  ... Fascism is  a  good starting
point.

Those attracted  to it  are  all  scared out of their minds.

kjell




---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.431 / Virus Database: 242 - Release Date: 17/12/2002

Kjell,

<<<< I am very well read.

I have read the whole of Mein Kampf.

Which is written by a  very  disturbed and  ignorant person.  Who
has been abused since childhood.

The EVIL ..No.

Sorry ... I picked mr Adolf.. but he still is a perfect example.

I  am well aware of all the atrocities  ... Fascism is  a  good
starting point.

Those attracted  to it  are  all  scared out of their minds.
>>>>

I am not sure of your point.  Are you saying that Adolf was not evil
[in his mind] because he had a disturbed childhood??  Or that those
who followed him were not also not evil??

eduard

>Kjell,
>
>Help me to understand what you are thinking.
>
>1) Do you believe evil exists?
>no
>2) What is Hitler the perfect example of?
>a  very  disturbed and  ignorant person.  Who
>has been abused since childhood.
>
>shari
>
>

>Kjell,
>
><<<< I am very well read.
>
>I have read the whole of Mein Kampf.
>
>Which is written by a  very  disturbed and  ignorant person.  Who
>has been abused since childhood.
>
>The EVIL ..No.
>
>Sorry ... I picked mr Adolf.. but he still is a perfect example.
>
>I  am well aware of all the atrocities  ... Fascism is  a  good
>starting point.
>
>Those attracted  to it  are  all  scared out of their minds.
>>>>>
>
>I am not sure of your point.  Are you saying that Adolf was not evil
>[in his mind] because he had a disturbed childhood??  Or that those
>who followed him were not also not evil??
>
>eduard


I rest my case.


I think you understand, I really do.Yes.  If you want to understand
is not quite clear.


I get more questions  every time i try to get  away from the
labyrinthic discussion. I dont say I have found a  NEW truth. This
has been agued by those better ecquipped  with knowledge in the
english language. I am at my wit´s end here. We have to change into
swedish or I will not be able to  make  my "point".

Language is  a  satanic thing.  Hm...This just  wrote itself...more or less.

Kjell

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kjell,

Okay. You do not believe evil exist.

Following Eduard's line of thought, all those who obeyed his
instructions were ignorant, very disturbed, and had abused childhoods?

If you believe evil does not exist, do you believe love exists?

shari


-----Original Message-----
From: Kjell Alinge [mailto:alinge@...]
Sent: Friday, 3 January 2003 1:36 p.m.
To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [existlist] evil

>Kjell,
>
>Help me to understand what you are thinking.
>
>1) Do you believe evil exists?
>no
>2) What is Hitler the perfect example of?
>a  very  disturbed and  ignorant person.  Who
>has been abused since childhood.
>
>shari
>
>

Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
(Includes community book list, chat, and more.)

TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.431 / Virus Database: 242 - Release Date: 17/12/2002


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.431 / Virus Database: 242 - Release Date: 17/12/2002

>Kjell,
>
>Okay. You do not believe evil exist.
>
>Following Eduard's line of thought, all those who obeyed his
>instructions were ignorant, very disturbed, and had abused childhoods?
>
>If you believe evil does not exist, do you believe love exists?
>
>shari


I know it exists.

Kjell

swm:

<<It seems to me you are content with what you
know (or think you know) whereas I am of the opinion that what I know
(or think I know) cannot be confirmed in its reality unless I can
convey it, and get others to "see" what I am talking about.>>

i think wittgenstein himself would have viewed tt there are something which
remains true but tt which may not necessarily be communicable by existing
language. just because buddha fail to convince others of his insight does
not mean his insight is any less true. einstein's relativity was not
immediately understood too. but personally, i take a as a good general
guideline in learning tt i should be able to articulate to any normally
intelligent person what i think i understand; it is like a way to assess my
own understanding.

james.






From: "swmaerske <swmirsky@...>" <swmirsky@...>
Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [WisdomForum] Re: Morality & God
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 21:16:55 -0000

Hmmm, no. I meant that everything that is empirical is still
empirical and that the reality associated with that still works as it
always did. But the self changes in the sense that it has a different
understanding of its "position" in the world, in all being. The
subject self is finally different and one of the ways it is different
is in how it feels about and acts toward other aspects of the shared
range of being (i.e., sentient beings and other existent things).

I really hate these kinds of expressions, by the way. They sound so
trumped up, so unnecessarily inflated! I find I want to speak in
common language, in everyday talk but that when I wander into this
arena I cannot do so and still say what I want to say. But when I say
it, I can't and still sound sensible and clear to myself. You see the
problem?

I am inclined to believe, both from my own experience and from my
longstanding musings on the matter, that moral valuing (as opposed to
other kinds) requires a special level of self, a special way of the
self seeing itself in relation to all other things. And yet, to say
this is to trivialize it or to slide into fuzziness which seems to
abrogate the claim. Still, I don't see any other means of explaining
what morality is or how it can operate with the authority it must
have to be morality as we understand it, without invoking this aspect
of experience.

I think you and I are not as divergent as it appears except that you
have less trouble with the language issue, with the means of
articulating what we are discussing. I am a stickler for clarity
above all else (my Anglo-American philosophical training) whereas you
are more interested in the insight we seem to have somehow both had
and don't seem to be overly concerned about how clear you are to
others on the matter. It seems to me you are content with what you
know (or think you know) whereas I am of the opinion that what I know
(or think I know) cannot be confirmed in its reality unless I can
convey it, and get others to "see" what I am talking about.

As I recall, you were satisfied with the idea that there is an "other
side of the moon" and that you had accessed it whereas, for me, I
thought that formulation only part of the issue, that it didn't
suffice in the milieu of discourse. I still feel that way but am also
convinced that there is an "other side of the moon" in the area of
knowledge and that it cannot be dismissed.

SWM

--- In WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com, "Will Brown <wilbro99@y...>"
<wilbro99@y...> wrote:
  > I trust I can adequately respond to your many points. First, let me
  > see if I can lay out the form of our disagreement, and then address
  > the nature of it. The first thing I see is you pointing in a
direction
  > I would point, as opposed to the non-point of J & C. Where I see us
  > differing is not in that pointed to, a change in the relation
between
  > the observer and the observed, but in the one doing the pointing.
  > Whereas you see the insight as leaving everything on the same
level, I
  > see the insight bringing about a radical change in the observer,
which
  > introduces another level to all self-reflective terms, a second
power,
  > as it were.
  >
  > Perhaps this might help clarify. In our relation to the world, there
  > is double relation; me-to-world and me-to-me. I see you as
addressing
  > only the me-to-world in that you speak of a change in perspective,
  > omitting any reference to a change in the one whose perspective it
is.
  > I have no way of knowing whether or not you are speaking from a
change
  > in the me-to-me relation. All I can say is that you do not address
it,
  > and since it is my experience that the subjective change /is/ the
  > change, I have no way of knowing how you know what you know. My
  > experience in dialogue with you (unfortunately, the archives of this
  > group no longer hold that record) was the same as yours; we ended up
  > at an impasse.
  >
  >  I think it is because you add the notion of a fundamentally private
  > seeing that J & C offer their criticisms. What I find interesting in
  > an ironic sort of way is that your criticism of my stance here is
  > fundamentally the same: "How does anyone know the individual
claiming
  > such an insight is not just a charlatan?" The only answer I know to
  > that one is to leave little notes lying around that points to such
an
  > insight and see who picks up on it.
  >
  > A short note: In respect to your Zen teacher and not talking about
  > that which cannot be talked about, refer to Posts 255, 257, 258, and
  > 260, where we again reached an impasse on what not talking about
  > meant. I do not know of anything that cannot be talked about, even
if
  > we are reduced to metaphorical speech. I do know of something that
  > cannot be reduced to words because thinking about it tends to wipe
out
  > the thinker, an I-wash, as it were. The insight that reveals that
  > I-wash can be spoken about.
  >
  > I think your thoughts on morality make sense. The question is one of
  > whether there is a Good, and if so, how does one find it? I think
  > there is a Good, and it is found by changing that me-to-me relation
  > from "me" to seeing "me" as the root of a self-concern that divides
  > "me" from the "world." As you have suggested, the removal of that
  > sense of being separate solves the problem. Yes, I think this.
  >
  >
  > --- In WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com, "swmaerske <swmirsky@a...>"
  > <swmirsky@a...> wrote:
  > > I think the insight we are speaking of leaves everything as it is
on
  > > one level while radically altering how we "see" ourselves in
relation
  > > to the world on another. Thus we continue to be aware of, and
operate
  > > within, the everyday world of reality while, at the same time,
seeing
  > > it all from a different perspective, one of connectivity rather
than
  > > separation. Words, however, are empty when trying to describe
this.
  > > All one can do is talk around it because, as noted, everything is
  > > still the same. It is as though a different thing has been added
to
  > > the "mix" which reorients the self in the same "environment".
This, I
  > > suppose, is why I am so uncomfortable trying to use this to
explain
  > > morality in a rational way, because everything one tries to say
about
  > > it immediately seems to conjure up those rational criticisms
offered
  > > by James and Chris, that if this is fundamentally private (can't
be
  > > shared by discourse alone) then how does anyone know it is not
just
  > > the speaker's fantasy, self-induced or the result of dissembling?
How
  > > does anyone know the individual claiming such an insight is not
just
  > > a charlatan? (I think we touched on this issue a long time ago
here.)
  > >
  > > I think Wittgenstein was not averse to allowing a role for
religious
  > > experience, for the special insight that that seems to involve,
but
  > > he seems to have held that there just was no way to talk about
it.
  > > Similarly he did not engage in explicit philosophical inquiry
into
  > > the so-called ethical. But he allowed that ethics and morality
had a
  > > role to play in human experience and were valid. My concern then
is
  > > how and why. Wittgenstein, much smarter than I can ever hope to
be,
  > > shut the door on this as a subject of explicit discourse. So, of
  > > course, did my Zen teacher. But that leaves me very uneasy as
well.
  > > Morality is something that we have to deal with and if there's no
way
  > > of demonstrating its reality, that it is anything more than an
  > > illusion in the world within which we operate, then it cannot be
  > > invoked, the game cannot be played. And then morality is lost.
  > >
  > > My sense is that the moral and the religious are linked for a
reason
  > > and this explication I've been laboring over here seems to show
how
  > > and why. But, as noted, it is not, in the end, either simple or
  > > entirely satisfying from a rational perspective.
  > >
  > > SWM
  > >
  > > --- In WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com, "Will Brown <wilbro99@y...>"
  > > <wilbro99@y...> wrote:
  > > > SWM, my experience says you are speaking to what I speak to. I
would
  > > > use different words, but the thrust would be the same. There is
an
  > > > insight into oneself that leads to an understanding of the
common
  > > > thread that runs us through and it is that understanding which
  > > > operates through us as the moral value. This insight brings
another
  > > > meaning of spiritual into being. Although I ascribe to no
religion,
  > > if
  > > > that understanding were to be seen as coming from God, as
  > > governance,
  > > > the dictum Thy Will be Done would be an expression of one's
getting
  > > > out of the way and allowing the understanding to do its thing.
  > > >
  > > > The following is where we apparently differ. It is also my
  > > experience
  > > > that this insight, in terms of the gestalt shift that
accompanies
  > > it,
  > > > can be made part of a dialogue in which the in-common of that
shift
  > > > can be spoken to. Your description describes the shift in
positive
  > > > terms, i.e., the notion of a unity. While this is essentially
the
  > > > effect of the shift, that which accompanies the shift, a loss
of an
  > > > imagined identity that creates the sense of separateness, is
what
  > > > allows those who have come upon the insight to speak to it and
come
  > > to
  > > > an agreement that it is an in-common shift. In other words,
that
  > > lost
  > > > can only be known when that to be lost is lost, and it is that
loss
  > > > that allows for a dialogue upon the insight itself; the dialogue
  > > > centers around that which was lost through the insight, not
what was
  > > > gained. In fact, the notion of a gain regains that lost.
  > > >
  > > > Anyway, for what it is worth, that's my tuppence.
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > --- In WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com, "swmaerske <swmirsky@a...>"
  > > > <swmirsky@a...> wrote:
  > > > > I wish I were fully comfortable with it myself, though. While
it
  > > does
  > > > > explain how morality can have content and be rationally
discussed
  > > and
  > > > > it does explain the historic nexus with religion, it is
somewhat
  > > un-
  > > > > Wittgensteinian and the criticism you and Chris have offered,
  > > that
  > > > > the matter of insight is somewhat nebulous, does make me
uneasy.
  > > > > More, I do not like its complexity, having always been a
fervent
  > > > > advocate of Occam's razor. Nevertheless, I think it throws
some
  > > light
  > > > > on the matter of moral valuing. -- SWM
  > > > >
  > > > > --- In WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com, "james tan" <tyjfk@h...>
  > > wrote:
  > > > > >
  > > > > >
  > > > > > thanks swm, for providing a 'objective' standard for
comparison
  > > and
  > > > > > 'measurement'. i know what is ur view.
  > > > > >
  > > > > > james.
  > > > > >
  > > > > >
  > > > > >
  > > > > >
  > > > > > From: "swmaerske <swmirsky@a...>" <swmirsky@a...>
  > > > > > Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
  > > > > > To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
  > > > > > Subject: [WisdomForum] Re: Morality & God
  > > > > > Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 18:29:20 -0000
  > > > > >
  > > > > > James said: "i cant decide for swm what his 'better self'
  > > should be,
  > > > > > for i or nobody else has authority over his life except
  > > himself."
  > > > > >
  > > > > > I guess at least part of my claim here is that the choice
of a
  > > > > better
  > > > > > self is not merely a matter of complete contingency, that
is to
  > > say
  > > > > > it is not that just anything may be chosen. While seeing
better
  > > > > > selves is a matter of insight, on this view, I am
suggesting
  > > that
  > > > > > there is a certain reality about this insight that is more
than
  > > just
  > > > > > whatever anyone chooses arbitrarily as a "value" (based on
  > > purely
  > > > > > free and contingent choice) or what happens to please the
  > > individual
  > > > > > chooser based on certain genetically inherited
predispositions.
  > > > > >
  > > > > > That said, however, I think we can agree that we are
talking
  > > about
  > > > > > the same thing in the end.
  > > > > >
  > > > > > I am claiming (rightly or wrongly and I'm not totally
convinced,
  > > > > > myself, that this really resolves the problem) that there
is a
  > > > > > process at work in all of us (by dint of what we are) which
  > > involves
  > > > > > valuing selves and that this involves working with ideas of
the
  > > > > self.
  > > > > >
  > > > > > This kind of thinking about the self can lead to an
expanded
  > > view of
  > > > > > the self, i.e., that the self is more than just a
  > > little "spiritual"
  > > > > > person or soul inside our skulls or brains. When seen in
this
  > > way,
  > > > > > one is naturally moved to an expansive idea of being. Such
an
  > > > > > expansive concept, however, necessarily obliges us to think
in
  > > terms
  > > > > > of the range of existence within which we define the self
and to
  > > > > > realize that there is then no distinction between the self
that
  > > > > > perceives and the things perceived (and all those relations
that
  > > > > > obtain between subject and object as a result of perceiving
and
  > > > > being
  > > > > > perceived).
  > > > > >
  > > > > > Such a view of the self leads us then to adopt actions
which are
  > > > > > consistent with this way of seeing the self (and its
world).
  > > Those
  > > > > > actions will be: 1) the ones that reflect and/or contribute
  > > toward a
  > > > > > continuation of this realization (i.e., they maintain the
self
  > > in
  > > > > the
  > > > > > relationship that is characterized by this kind of
awareness);
  > > or 2)
  > > > > > those actions that may be said to lead to such an
awarerness.
  > > > > Actions
  > > > > > that fit the first criterion are better than the second
insofar
  > > as
  > > > > > they betoken an already realized self (though they may only
be
  > > > > > something to be aimed for and yet never entirely realized).
  > > Actions
  > > > > > fitting the second criterion reflect an as-yet unrealized
self
  > > and
  > > > > so
  > > > > > may or may not be closer to the final object of this
spiritual
  > > > > > pursuit.
  > > > > >
  > > > > > The first thing that is going on here is a kind of
spiritual
  > > process
  > > > > > whereby being is seen in a way that makes it a matter of the
  > > > > > interrelationships of all things that may be said to be.
Being
  > > is
  > > > > > seen as not any individual being's experiences but as the
  > > breadth of
  > > > > > all experience which encompases all beings.
  > > > > >
  > > > > > At this level, we are engaged in a process which may also
be
  > > called
  > > > > > spiritual valuing, that is identifying, choosing and
pursuing
  > > the
  > > > > > better model of self (i.e., the least restricted, most
fully
  > > > > realized
  > > > > > form of self).
  > > > > >
  > > > > > Since human actions, insofar as they are more than just
physical
  > > > > > occurrences and thus mere objects to our subjects, entail
  > > intentions
  > > > > > and since intentions arise from, and are aspects of, selves
  > > when we
  > > > > > look at actions in order to value them, we must then look
at
  > > how
  > > > > they
  > > > > > contribute to (or detract from) the better self that we have
  > > > > > identified on the level of this spiritual valuing. Thus
  > > morality,
  > > > > the
  > > > > > valuing of actions has, at its base, the valuing of selves
  > > which is
  > > > > a
  > > > > > spiritual activity. Thus, moral valuing is seen, at bottom,
to
  > > be
  > > > > > derived from something that is akin to religion though this
is
  > > not
  > > > > to
  > > > > > say it arises from religion in the ordinary way religions
like
  > > to
  > > > > > claim it (that is, it is not a matter of divine fiat or
  > > legislation
  > > > > > but rather it is more of a necessary corollary to a certain
  > > kind of
  > > > > > religious view and practice).
  > > > > >
  > > > > > All of this, then, is to say that moral valuing is grounded
in a
  > > > > > fundamentally spiritual experience (although I
  > > define "spiritual",
  > > > > as
  > > > > > Chris previously noted, in a special, though not, I think,
  > > > > > inappropriate, way).
  > > > > >
  > > > > > How do we argue then about fundamental moral values? We do
so by
  > > > > > arguing about better or worse ways to be in the world,
better or
  > > > > > worse selves. Those who disregard the well-being of others,
who
  > > > > > relish others' pain or discomfort, who turn away from
kindness,
  > > who
  > > > > > fly planes loaded with innocents into buildings loaded with
  > > > > innocents
  > > > > > are those who fail to see and thus "feel" the connectivity
with
  > > the
  > > > > > rest of being. They are isolated, alienated from others,
which
  > > is to
  > > > > > say that they have more restricted, more limited selves.
The
  > > selves
  > > > > > they have or want to have are faulty on this view because
they
  > > are
  > > > > > separated from the rest of what constitutes self.
  > > > > >
  > > > > > How will they know they are wrong and those who advocate
the
  > > fully
  > > > > > expanded and integrated self (and the actions which are
either
  > > > > > consistent with that or lead to that) are right?
  > > > > >
  > > > > > The answer is they won't and no amount of reasoning
  > > will "prove"
  > > > > this
  > > > > > to them. The desire to enhance the self can be manifested
in
  > > ways
  > > > > > that include bodybuilding, acquiring wealth, gaining power
over
  > > > > > others, etc. Our job then is to show others why none of
these
  > > things
  > > > > > really enhance the self and this can only be shown via a
careful
  > > > > > analysis of what it means to be a self in the end. Or
through a
  > > > > > sudden "seeing" on the part of the person involved.
Sometimes
  > > this
  > > > > > careful analysis of being-in-the-world is the path to the
  > > insight
  > > > > > about what selves really are and sometimes a person
just "gets"
  > > it.
  > > > > > Once it is "gotten" though, it becomes the basis for how
one
  > > decides
  > > > > > one's actions thereafter. So, again, while we cannot
convince
  > > > > another
  > > > > > of the value of being moral by mere rational argument, we
can
  > > seek
  > > > > to
  > > > > > nurture and share that insight about being itself that
leads,
  > > as a
  > > > > > corollary, to the moral choices. In the end, morality is
about
  > > > > > religion afterall.
  > > > > >
  > > > > > SWM
  > > > > >
  > > > > >
  > > > > >
  > > > > >
  > > _________________________________________________________________
  > > > > > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
  > > > > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus



_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

Kjell,

<<<<
>If you believe evil does not exist, do you believe love exists?
>
>shari

I know it exists.
>>>>

How can love exist and evil not exist??  Are they not the opposite
sides of the same coin??

eduard

Right. Love exists, but not evil. Hmmmmm....... Perhaps akin to my
earlier statement of God exists, but not Santa.

It's just another perspective; so thank you for sharing.

shari


-----Original Message-----
From: Kjell Alinge [mailto:alinge@...]
Sent: Friday, 3 January 2003 1:47 p.m.
To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [existlist] evil

>Kjell,
>
>Okay. You do not believe evil exist.
>
>Following Eduard's line of thought, all those who obeyed his
>instructions were ignorant, very disturbed, and had abused childhoods?
>
>If you believe evil does not exist, do you believe love exists?
>
>shari


I know it exists.

Kjell




---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.431 / Virus Database: 242 - Release Date: 17/12/2002

hi rafiz, for ur comment.

james.




From: "swmaerske <swmirsky@...>" <swmirsky@...>
Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [WisdomForum] A Change of Pace?
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 02:21:43 -0000

I found reference to an article on "Islamo-Fascism" over on the
Critical Rationalist forum. Here is an excerpt from that article:



Al-Zawahiri wrote several books on Islamic movements, the best known
of which is The Bitter Harvest (1991/92), a critical assessment of
the failings of the Muslim Brotherhood. In it, he draws not only on
the writings of Sayyid Qutb to justify murder and terrorism, but
prominently references Pakistani Jamaat-i-Islami founder and
ideologue Mawdudi on the global mission of Islamic jihad.

Mawdudi had written, "Islam wants the whole earth and does not
content itself with only a part thereof. It wants and requires the
entire inhabited world. It does not want this in order that one
nation dominates the earth and monopolizes its sources of wealth,
after having taken them away from one or more other nations. No,
Islam wants and requires the earth in order that the human race
altogether can enjoy the concept and practical program of human
happiness, by means of which God has honored Islam and put it above
the other religions and laws. In order to realize this lofty desire,
Islam wants to employ all forces and means that can be employed for
bringing about a universal all-embracing revolution. It will spare no
effort for the achievement of this supreme objective. This far-
reaching struggle that continuously exhausts all forces and this
employment of all possible means are called jihad."

And further, "Islam is a revolutionary doctrine and system that
overturns governments. It seeks to overturn the whole universal
social order ... and establish its structure anew ... Islam seeks the
world. It is not satisfied by a piece of land but demands the whole
universe ... Islamic jihad is at the same time offensive and
defensive ... The Islamic party does not hesitate to utilize the
means of war to implement its goal."



More can be found at the following URL:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/DL05Ak01.html

Can we still afford to be moral relativists?

SWM






_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

Eduard,

If only anyone else in this group spoke Swedish, and translate for us,
we may be able to know what the Swedish word for Evil is. Or perhaps
that word does not exist in Sweden. I may be mistaken, but Sweden was
neutral in WW2, was it not? I must ask my Army friend about the number
of troops Sweden committed to WW2, and if they have 'peace-keeping'
troops anywhere in the world.

And perhaps all those American soldiers in Nam were abused as children.
No, Your Honour, I did not maim, rape, and murder. The dog, the picture,
the painting, my girl made me do it.

shari


-----Original Message-----
From: eduard [mailto:yeoman@...]
Sent: Friday, 3 January 2003 3:25 p.m.
To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [existlist] evil



How can love exist and evil not exist??  Are they not the opposite
sides of the same coin??

eduard


Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
(Includes community book list, chat, and more.)

TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.431 / Virus Database: 242 - Release Date: 17/12/2002


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.431 / Virus Database: 242 - Release Date: 17/12/2002