I think that someone might be interested in this, especially you're in a
location where you don't have real-time face-to-face support.
   Hal Carr
   --------------------------------------


   JOURNEY TOGETHER Telephone-Based Coaching Group — Open to anyone serious about
overcoming SSA. Every Tuesday evening starting July 1 at 7:30 p.m. US Eastern
Time.


   Facilitated by professional life coach Rich Wyler, the founder of People Can
Change and Journey Into Manhood. Each group lasts 75 minutes. Cost: $60 per
month (four 75-minute sessions), renewable each month. To register, go to
http://www.peoplecanchange.com/Payments.htm and click on "CLICK HERE to Register
for the Journey Together Coaching Group.”

   QUESTIONS?  Contact Rich Wyler at 1- 434-985-8551 or rich@...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Dan, for your testimony of what God is doing in your life. My name is Tom
Morey, one of the moderators here at ExGDBd. Its a real encouragement to me to
hear the things that He has been telling you. I can totally relate with the
SSA's, being single at age 52, and the compulsive masturbation tendencies.
Clearly, if you continue on this same path and frame of mind that you described
on a daily basis, I believe too that you will not falter nor shrink back to
giving room again for an idolatrous life of compulsive masturbation, but rather
live consistently in His peace over it all. 
 
However, two things come to mind about this important issue. I believe that I
can't make such absolute statements about living in freedom for the future
anymore, since I have made them in the past and have become disillusioned when I
resorted back to the same form of idolatry. So, what I do now is only make those
affirmation statements about today, and allow the Lord to take care of my
tomorrow, in the meantime. Do you agree with this? The other thing is that I'm
wondering, outside of submitting to the Lord your otherwise compulsive desires
in your prayer time with Him, and thinking His thoughts about you after Him,
making appropriate and positive self-affirmations, and following through
accordingly, how do you address the tangible loneliness factor? This issue for
me has been a major trigger towards relapsing, and I find that even the
aforementioned is not enough to preclude eventually another relapse.
Anticipating daily involvement in the service
  of the Lord of others, especially in the context of my local church, has helped
greatly in this way. Do you have any suggestions?            
 
I will be looking forward to hearing the intouch program you suggested later on
today, and any further posts that you make here at the public forum. Have you
been reading any books or have been viewing any websites on the subject matter
of masturbation and sexual temptation? If so, any recommendations?  I've read
"Every Man's Battle" and "Every Young Man's Battle" by Steve Arterburn, which
were both very informative and helpful.
 
Blessings,
 
Tom
 
 --- On Mon, 6/30/08, Dan <orionsector@...> wrote:

From: Dan <orionsector@...>
Subject: [ExGDBd] Re: My Intro & an Awesome message about Brokeness & Surrender
To: exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, June 30, 2008, 9:55 PM






The link I provided doesn't seem to work correctly.

Just go to intouch.org and from the drop down menue, select
"Broadcasts" and then "Audio Archives" and find the correctly dated
message there.
Thanks~
Dan


















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Although Anthony Venn-Brown sadly and wrongly identifies himself as gay, as a
self-professing Australian Christian, and is a propagator of gay theology and a
proponent of gay science, read here what he has to say about why so many more
Christians today believe that homosexual BEHAVIOR is NOT contrary to God's will.

Many Christians in leadership believe that the majority of the following
generations of Christians will not reject the Biblical standard, as long as it
is upheld in the pulpit, as well as in all other venues of Christian education.
The following clearly reveals that Anthony Venn-Brown disagrees with this
assessment. Do you also disagree? And, if so, why? And if not, why not?

"The Closeted Masses in Churches

I’m talking here about heterosexuals not homosexuals. There are an ever
increasing number of people across all denominations, who no longer hold the
outdated view that same sex orientation is an illness or the result of a
dysfunctional upbringing yet they remain silent and are fearful to challenge
leadership and hierarchies. I’ve found them in Hillsong and other Pentecostal
churches in Australia. I’ve found them in Bible colleges. Just as gay
Christians exist so do heterosexual Christians who have had a change of heart
and belief. More than we realise. Some have been brave enough to openly share
their opinions such as music celebrities who attend Hillsong such as Australian
Idol winner Guy Sebastian & Brooke Fraser.

In Australia, a 2004 survey found that only 34% Catholics believe homosexuality
is immoral with similar numbers in Anglican and Uniting Churches. In 2001, when
asked anonymously ‘Should homosexuals be accepted as members in the church on
the same basis as heterosexuals? 59% of Pentecostals surveyed said YES.

In April this year, LifeWay Research, an arm of the Southern Baptist Convention,
surveyed 1,201 adults to determine their attitudes about homosexuality.
Forty-eight percent responded that homosexual behaviour is sinful, but 45
percent said that it is not -- basically a statistical tie when the margin of
error is taken into account. What is even more surprising is that the number of
born-again, evangelical, or fundamentalist Christians who consider homosexual
behaviour to be morally acceptable stands at 17 percent, according to the
survey. Thirty-one percent of Protestants and 55 percent of Catholics feel the
same way. These figures reflect once again a huge shift in understanding.

The old hardliners, from a less informed generation on sexual orientation, like
the Reverend Jerry Falwell and James Kennedy, are dying out. A new generation
will take their place. In September 2007, The Barna Group survey found that the
most common perception is that present-day Christianity is "anti-homosexual”.
80% of young churchgoers say this phrase describes Christianity. As the research
probed this perception, non-Christians and Christians explained that beyond
their recognition that Christians oppose homosexuality, they believe that
Christians show excessive contempt and unloving attitudes towards gays and
lesbians. One of the most frequent criticisms of young Christians was that they
believe the church has made homosexuality a "bigger sin" than anything else.
Moreover, they claim that the church has not helped them apply the biblical
teaching on homosexuality to their friendships with gays and lesbians. It’s
only a matter of time before this
  younger generation has greater influence.

Why Don’t Church Leadership Take the Initiative?

I have a theory as to why this change hasn’t moved up from the ranks of the
congregations to the leadership. Possibly two things have influenced this. In
most denominations, the higher one’s position within the structure the more
likely you are to be removed from what is happening in real life. This is
probably more so in traditional denominations such as the Catholic Church then
the less conventional churches, but it is still a fact I know from my own
experience.

The second factor is possibly the fear some church leaders have of creating
division in their denominations. The whole world has looked on at the centuries
old institution of the Anglican/Episcopal Church as it splits in two. The issue:
homosexuality and the ordination of the first openly gay bishop Gene Robinson.
Of course he is not the only gay bishop in that or the Catholic denomination; he
is just the first one to be open and honest with everyone. They haven’t given
us a very good model of how to resolve this issue."

well, I do agree about the absolute statements. My attitude was
always that masterbation should be avoided if I was gonna fantasize
and sin. This has almost always been my pattern and it's the real
problem, not the masterbation itself. Thats not to give myself an
out, but lets face it, sometimes you just have to do it. I am human
and cannot just make believe my sexuality doesn't exist just because
I often feel it to be a curse. It's part of who I am and it isn't bad
in itself. When I make rigid rules for myself, I just ensure that I
will feel so hopeless that I will set myself up to fail. I have to
give myself more grace.

One thing I am doing now is that I am letting God have ownership over
my sexuality. One of my major fears that have always dominated my
life was what to do about that area of my life, since Gods rules
about sex seem to totally exclude a person like me and offer a bleak
future to say the least. Now (especially when tempted) I'm giving it
all to God rather than to think I need to work it out myself. He can
be responsible for If I ever have a sexual life, WHEN that will
happen and HOW (on earth could it ever happen). I don't have much
control over such things anyway.

As far as lonliness, I guess I'm so used to being alone that I am
usually not aware of that feeling. It's kind of always been there. I
don't think it's a major factor for me acting out. The deep down
loneliness and feelings of emptyness and especially hopelessness over
this sexual brokeness are my major triggers. Boredom is also, which
stimulates my desire to masterbate and fantasize. Now I try to clean
my apt or something instead - it usually needs it anyway.

I do own "Every Young Mans Battle". I didn't like the chapter on
masterbation because I was not even willing to consider giving it up,
since it was all I had. I look at it differently now, but I'm not
sure I would not sometimes do it if it was not assocaited with the
fantasies anymore, which are the real problem.

As far as books on the subject of masterbation, no I haven't really
read books on it. I don't think I am compulsive about it, although
when I have acted out to the point of meeting people for sexual
purposes, it has always been after masterbating on an almost daily
basis for a short time. I don't feel I am addicted to it, but I've
relied on it too frequently and it has been a fertile breeding ground
for all kinds of perverted fantasies and behaviours. I can totally
see how I've programmed my brain through positive reinforcement
(orgasm) to respond chemically to my masterbation related thoughs
even when I am not masterbating. Like the Pavlovs' dogs story.




--- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Morey
<moreytom@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks Dan, for your testimony of what God is doing in your life.
My name is Tom Morey, one of the moderators here at ExGDBd. Its a
real encouragement to me to hear the things that He has been telling
you. I can totally relate with the SSA's, being single at age 52, and
the compulsive masturbation tendencies. Clearly, if you continue on
this same path and frame of mind that you described on a daily basis,
I believe too that you will not falter nor shrink back to giving room
again for an idolatrous life of compulsive masturbation, but rather
live consistently in His peace over it all. 
>  
> However, two things come to mind about this important issue. I
believe that I can't make such absolute statements about living in
freedom for the future anymore, since I have made them in the past
and have become disillusioned when I resorted back to the same form
of idolatry. So, what I do now is only make those affirmation
statements about today, and allow the Lord to take care of my
tomorrow, in the meantime. Do you agree with this? The other thing is
that I'm wondering, outside of submitting to the Lord your otherwise
compulsive desires in your prayer time with Him, and thinking His
thoughts about you after Him, making appropriate and positive self-
affirmations, and following through accordingly, how do you address
the tangible loneliness factor? This issue for me has been a
major trigger towards relapsing, and I find that even the
aforementioned is not enough to preclude eventually another relapse.
Anticipating daily involvement in the service
>  of the Lord of others, especially in the context of my local
church, has helped greatly in this way. Do you have any
suggestions?            
>  
> I will be looking forward to hearing the intouch program you
suggested later on today, and any further posts that you make here at
the public forum. Have you been reading any books or have been
viewing any websites on the subject matter of masturbation and sexual
temptation? If so, any recommendations?  I've read "Every Man's
Battle" and "Every Young Man's Battle" by Steve Arterburn, which were
both very informative and helpful.
>  
> Blessings,
>  
> Tom
>  
>  --- On Mon, 6/30/08, Dan <orionsector@...> wrote:
>
> From: Dan <orionsector@...>
> Subject: [ExGDBd] Re: My Intro & an Awesome message about Brokeness
& Surrender
> To: exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, June 30, 2008, 9:55 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The link I provided doesn't seem to work correctly.
>
> Just go to intouch.org and from the drop down menue, select
> "Broadcasts" and then "Audio Archives" and find the correctly dated
> message there.
> Thanks~
> Dan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I am including this response anonymously at this ex-gay discussion group, which
was originally posted at another. Please feel free to respond to this thoughtful
reply to my Q as well.

Blessings,

Tom

"Dear Thomas,

Thanks for this. It’s a very important that those of us who support the ex-gay
movement and conversion therapy really need to discuss in more depth, and
internationally.

Please feel free to circulate what I say here (anonymously) to the other ex-gay
email lists to which you sent the original email. I want to see a proper
discussion started on the problem of how do we get support from younger adults.

It is true in my experience that too many younger adults my sort of age (I’m
31) who attend churches that uphold the traditionalist stance don’t really see
homosexuality as a problem.

I have theories as to why this might be.

There seems to be a disproportionate percentage of Christians who have problems
with homosexuality, and more broadly with sexuality in general. Part of the
background to this, I think, is a greater predisposition to anxiety and
obsessiveness among churchgoers, a greater neuroticism. Janelle Hallman said in
her talk at NARTH last year that homosexuality has become common among younger
conservative Christians in the USA because they are predisposed to extreme
sensitivity about heterosexual relationships, and recoil from the utter chaos of
the heterosexual dating scene, with problems like date rape, and women being fed
up with guys’ use of pornography.

What this is is no less than Margaret Mead’s prediction in ‘Male and
Female’ coming true: there will come a time when many people will not be able
to stomach having a heterosexual relationship of the kind that is expected in
contemporary society.

I have been round the block with all kinds of denominations, including liberal
churches. Most Christian adults my age have not done this, as their faith
journey has been the opposite of mine: from a strict evangelical home to a big
mega-church. I went to liberal churches between the ages of 20 and 25 on and
off, and felt let down once I realised that they condoned homosexuality etc. So
I’ve seen what they are like; they also have their fair share of neuroticism
and major in passive aggression. Their sex-ratio is 2: 1 female to male, much
worse than many traditionalist churches.

So-called revisionist or liberal Christians are much more obsessively
pro-homosexual than your average person in the street who is non-religious, at
least in Britain . There is a very important piece of demographic research by
the British sociologist of religion David Voas that demonstrates this, but I
don’t think it’s available online any more. I shall try to find it.

Voas found that young Anglicans were much more likely to be revisionists, but
young Baptists and others were not. In particular, younger churchgoing women,
especially Anglicans, were more likely to be revisionist.

Here’s another thing; Voas found that as many as half of younger Christian men
did not think homosexuality was really wrong, and as many as two thirds of
younger Christian women. This mirrors the uneven sex-ratio of revisionist
churches in an interesting way. It means that Christian women with revisionist
views have a low chance of marrying a Christian man with revisionist views. Voas
then found that while children tended to follow their parents’ sexual
morality, there wasn’t a 100% chance that they did so. So the percentage of
Christian churchgoers who uphold the traditionalist position, and from whom
supporters of the ex-gay movement can be drawn, is dwindling – UNLESS we do
something about it now.

Revisionist women in my experience *routinely* refuse to recognise that their
views have driven heterosexual men away from Christian churches altogether. That
however does not just affect them, it also has a knock-on effect on their more
conservative sisters, who also struggle to find Christian husbands because of
the geographical spread of Christians.

What this is is *denial* of the wish for marriage. This denial is neurotic –
but it can also be found among many evangelicals in the form of spiritualising
‘the gift of singleness’ in various ways. It is a defence against the pain
of looking for a suitable Christian man when so many younger Christian men are
very insecure in their manhood, and are not getting the pastoral care they need
about it. This is offputting to women. (I am not thereby claiming that Christian
churchgoing women are all well-adjusted people; many are not! I have heard many
decent Christian men tell me how neurotic single Christian women can be. The
problem cuts both ways.)

I think there’s another set of reasons why younger adults don’t want to take
a strong stance against homosexuality, and that is the sense of being fed-up of
some of the messages the evangelical subculture has given out about how to
approach sex, emotions and relationships.

Let’s face it there is a *great deal* of suspicion of emotions, sexual desire
and adult independence in much of the evangelical subculture. In many circles,
if you aren’t married by the age of 25, you’re ‘on the shelf’.
Codependency seems encouraged. The whole spiritualised approach to dating and
marriage – ‘waiting for the one God has prepared for me’ type thing,
irritates people no end, and seems often like little more than a way for some
people to stigmatise the natural role of mutual liking and sexual attraction in
motivating a relationship. Once people have discarded the spiritualising stuff
and acknowledged the importance of their emotions, they are less likely to be
able to argue strongly against accepting homosexuality, because that is seen as
accepting one’s feelings and being honest as opposed to spiritualising
everything.

Ultimately I think behind this all is a very deep-seated, not always conscious
*fear* of masculinity, partly due to the church reflecting the sin of our
culture, partly because many people have not grown up with a decent male
role-model. Avoiding the need to face the problems with the undermining of
marriage and the damage this will have on future generations is a symptom of a
neurotic generation of churchgoers, many of whom are delaying marriage and
childbearing (for many different reasons, but some are undoubtedly neurotic.)

There *has* to be more interaction between the ex-gay movement and people
interested in men’s and women’s issues in the churches. Some people in the
Christian men’s movement can be rather simplistic about women and reactionary,
behaving as if they believe welfare is a Durkheimian zero-sum game: if women get
more recognition as persons in their own right, somehow this entails that men
will get badmouthed.

Anyway, I think I’ve said enough about this.

I’d be interested to know if people think I am onto something."

Anonymous

http://www.sexualidentityinstitute.org/index.php

Have you ever found yourself on a mailing list from either a right-
wing or left-wing political organization? They provide people who
receive their materials with enough information to gain their
support but not enough information to adequately address the
complexities of the issues being highlighted. The documentary For
the Bible Tells Me So by Daniel Karslake comes across like this to
the viewer. It is at its best when it tries to convey different
experiences among families sorting out the relationship between
religion and sexual identity. But it more often than not presents
interviews with selected theologians and church leaders in ways that
fail to address the central issues in both biblical studies and
scientific research on homosexuality.

The documentary opens with some interesting quotes. For example,
Peter Gomes, author of The Good Book, suggests that perhaps the
Roman Catholic church was correct in medieval times to keep ordinary
people from reading Scripture for themselves - to limit the reading
of Scripture to those who are qualified to read it. Lawrence King
refers to people who adhere to a traditional Christian sexual ethic
as having a "5th grade education," suggesting that any intelligent
person would not interpret Scripture as saying that same-sex
behavior is a moral concern. Mel White refers to what conservatives
do as akin to what happened under Hitler - under Hitler - in terms
of "telling a lie" over and over again until people believe it. This
give the viewer some idea of how these very important and
substantive issues are going to be addressed throughout the
documentary.

For example, the segments that follow do not address the broad
biblical themes and principles regarding human sexuality, nor do
they address even most of the biblical references to sexuality, its
expression, or homosexuality; rather, the documentary focused
primarily on the Holiness Codes in Leviticus and offered commentary
by revisionists with respect to how best read these passages today.
This was probably the greatest disappointment in the documentary.
Rather than engage how biblical scholars interpret these passages in
context, the documenary focuses more on conveying apparent
inconsistencies as so obviously ridiculous as to not be taken
seriously, which does not lend itself to a meaninful discussion of
hermeneutics (the interpretation of Scripture). This is particularly
unfortunate as hermeneutics has been argued as the area many
Christians see as central to the moral debate on homosexuality.
(There is a brief discussion later of Sodom and Gomorrah and recent
interpretations of "inhospitality" as well as a very brief interview
with Richard Mouw, President of Fuller Theological Seminary, that
hints at what the documentary could have been had there been an
interest in genuine exchange of scholarship in this area.)

The section on science was similarly disappointing. It focused
primarily on etiology of sexual orientation with some discussion
later on attempted change. The discussion of etiology is limited to
males. The documentary states that this is because there is more
research on males than females, and this is factually correct.
However, there is also greater fluidity among female sexual
minorities, and one recent study reported it was normative to have
both same- and opposite-sex attraction among a sample of female
sexual minorities, most of whom changed identity labels over time.
Limiting the discussion to males could be seen by critics as serving
the purpose of conveying something about the immutability of sexual
orientation that has to be argued for and supported by science
rather than portrayed through a limited review of a handful of
studies. The immutability argument is strengthened by limiting the
discussion to males, and then generalized to gay males and lesbians
in ways that is quite misleading. In fact, the section on etiology
focuses primarily on twin studies, saying that research shows up to
a 70% concordance rate for gay male twins. This is highly misleading
to those who are unfamiliar with this line of research, as the
studies here suggest very little input from biology. (The most
frequently cited study is by Michael Bailey, who in a 1991 study
reported a 52% probandwise concordance rate for gay male twins. This
shrank to 20% in the 2000 study when Bailey used a more
representative sample. But the true concordance rate is even less
than that - more like 11% - once you understand how "probandwise"
concordance rates are calculated; to learn more about this, see the
review in Homosexuality on pages 72-80.)

In any case, the twin and birth order studies mentioned at one point
are contrasted later with the idea that homosexuality is a choice.
This distinction between what is biologically based (more like left
handedness) and choice confuses what is actually volitional about
sexuality and what is the central concern (e.g., behavior) in a
Christian sexual ethic.

There is an interesting section on those who participate in religion-
based ministries, such as those affiliated with Exodus
International. The documentary conveys this information through a
cartoon that dismisses the experiences of those who identify as ex-
gay, suggesting that they only change behavior and that the use of
varied approaches suggests that nothing is helpful. These ministries
are portrayed as fear-based and merely helping people to suppress
their urges. This section also emphasizes the risks associated with
such suppression of sexual attraction, such as shame and guilt. From
an informed consent standpoint, risks are an important consideration
that need to be discussed, but the documentary only cites anecdotes
here and fails to mention studies of reported change of sexual
orientation, such as the study conducted by Robert Spitzer, and the
benefits reported there of not only experiencing change of
orientation but also decreased self-report of depression.

The documentary focuses on James Dobson, Beverly LaHaye, and a few
others as the main spokespersons of conventional religiosity. There
really is no recognition that the move away from a traditional
Christian sexual ethic is such a radical departure from orthodoxy in
the areas of sexuality and sexual behavior. Again, some recognition
of this and contrasting interviews with serious biblical scholars
would have helped the viewer better understand the complexities
associated with the ethical debate among Christians (more like the
book, Homosexuality and the Bible: Two Views, by Dan Via and Robert
Gagnon).

Toward the end of the documentary is a portrayal of violence against
sexual minorities. This is a sobering, painful section to watch and
represents another important area for all people interested in the
welfare of others. It is a topic on which both "sides" can find
common ground, as Christians stand against acts of violence against
gay and lesbian persons. However, the approach taken in the
documentary is one that links traditional Christian sexual ethics
with violence against gays and lesbians. To offer a truly
substantive contribution, this assumption of a link has to be
established and supported rather than just assumed and asserted.
Also, logically, the moral stance has to be evaluated on its own
terms even in cases in which people misuse that understanding to
justify harm to others (for a discussion of this, see Homosexuality,
pp. 12-13).

The documentary is at its best when it tells the stories of various
family members and how they have sorted out how best to respond to
loved ones. This is perhaps because there are different families
represented. Although the majority have very positive outcomes of
family tensions being resolved through acceptance, reinterpretation
of Scripture, or unconditional love, there is one family in
particular that conveys some of the challenges faced when parents do
not accept revisionist interpretations of Scripture. This is perhaps
more representative of help-seeking families, as they are often
conflicted and want assistance in sorting out these complex issues.
This is also an important consideration for families as the
challenges are great when families feel they need to navigate how to
be loving but not affirming as far as their conscience will allow.

There is a need for a resource that helps people of faith sort out
the complex issues related to biblical studies and scientific
research. For the Bible Tells Me So is not that resource. In the end
the documentary is a disappointment as it fails to even attempt to
show a balanced discussion of either science or religion. It will
likely be embraced by those who agree with it a priori and dismissed
by those who disagree with it a priori… much like the mailings you
get from either right- or left-wing political organizations. It may
persuade those who are unfamiliar with either the scientific
research or biblical hermeneutics, but it will do so by not
providing a balanced portrayal of the most substantive issues.

Hey guys! Great article Tom! Very insightful and it appears to be
backed by a good deal of research on the part of the author.

I have an opinion - and perhaps an "uneducated" opinion that is based
solely upon my own experiences as well as some of my friends' views
and actions. I really think whomever posted this piece hit the nail on
the head with one particular issue: Christians (regardless their
gender) are dating and marrying outside their spiritual heritage
(non-Christians).

I truly believe that a vast majority of Christian women (I was one of
these women) date men who are not true, reborn in the Spirit,
followers of Christ. Interestingly, women who want a relationship will
stoop to all sorts of levels in order to "have" that relationship.
Case in point, I was a Christian since the age of 19 and dated all
non-Christian men during college. My husband, fortunately, became a
Christian after we started dating; nonetheless, I did not seek out a
Christian man to date, court, etc. In fact, I wasn't fully aware that
a fine Christian man even existed! : ) I have at least five female
friends who I know very well, who have literally set their spiritual
lives aside in order to achieve that "relationship" with the opposite
sex. They'll do just about anything to have that relationship - and
will go so far as to abandon their own traditional beliefs in order to
appear more "tolerant" to the man/men they have chosen to love. It's
sad, really. Ironically, one such friend of mine has turned into a
totally different person since her recent relationship began. Once a
morally-conscious lady, she recently purchased a home with her new
beau and is now living with him outside the realm of marriage. Don't
get me wrong - I'm not judging her - I'm simply pointing out the
contradiction here and we're all guilty of it (me more so than most
others). She has now become very liberal in some of her beliefs. Quite
frankly, I think she has adopted her beau's persona a bit - his
beliefs have become hers.

Anyway, it's my opinion, but I think (whatever this may be labeled) is
a huge part of the problem. Just about every Christian female I have
ever known (all but one if I may be that brutally honest) has tread
down this path while dating. It's unfortunate and more research should
be conducted to determine what factors lead us to adopt the moral
standards and/or worldviews of others. Hence, more Christians do
little to nothing and just turn a blind eye to same-sex attraction.

Christa

--- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Morey
<moreytom@...> wrote:
>
> I am including this response anonymously at this ex-gay discussion
group, which was originally posted at another. Please feel free to
respond to this thoughtful reply to my Q as well.
>
> Blessings,
>
> Tom
>
> "Dear Thomas,
>
> Thanks for this. It’s a very important that those of us who
support the ex-gay movement and conversion therapy really need to
discuss in more depth, and internationally.
>
> Please feel free to circulate what I say here (anonymously) to the
other ex-gay email lists to which you sent the original email. I want
to see a proper discussion started on the problem of how do we get
support from younger adults.
>
> It is true in my experience that too many younger adults my sort of
age (I’m 31) who attend churches that uphold the traditionalist
stance don’t really see homosexuality as a problem.
>
> I have theories as to why this might be.
>
> There seems to be a disproportionate percentage of Christians who
have problems with homosexuality, and more broadly with sexuality in
general. Part of the background to this, I think, is a greater
predisposition to anxiety and obsessiveness among churchgoers, a
greater neuroticism. Janelle Hallman said in her talk at NARTH last
year that homosexuality has become common among younger conservative
Christians in the USA because they are predisposed to extreme
sensitivity about heterosexual relationships, and recoil from the
utter chaos of the heterosexual dating scene, with problems like date
rape, and women being fed up with guys’ use of pornography.
>
> What this is is no less than Margaret Mead’s prediction in ‘Male
and Female’ coming true: there will come a time when many people
will not be able to stomach having a heterosexual relationship of the
kind that is expected in contemporary society.
>
> I have been round the block with all kinds of denominations,
including liberal churches. Most Christian adults my age have not done
this, as their faith journey has been the opposite of mine: from a
strict evangelical home to a big mega-church. I went to liberal
churches between the ages of 20 and 25 on and off, and felt let down
once I realised that they condoned homosexuality etc. So I’ve seen
what they are like; they also have their fair share of neuroticism and
major in passive aggression. Their sex-ratio is 2: 1 female to male,
much worse than many traditionalist churches.
>
> So-called revisionist or liberal Christians are much more
obsessively pro-homosexual than your average person in the street who
is non-religious, at least in Britain . There is a very important
piece of demographic research by the British sociologist of religion
David Voas that demonstrates this, but I don’t think it’s
available online any more. I shall try to find it.
>
> Voas found that young Anglicans were much more likely to be
revisionists, but young Baptists and others were not. In particular,
younger churchgoing women, especially Anglicans, were more likely to
be revisionist.
>
> Here’s another thing; Voas found that as many as half of younger
Christian men did not think homosexuality was really wrong, and as
many as two thirds of younger Christian women. This mirrors the uneven
sex-ratio of revisionist churches in an interesting way. It means that
Christian women with revisionist views have a low chance of marrying a
Christian man with revisionist views. Voas then found that while
children tended to follow their parents’ sexual morality, there
wasn’t a 100% chance that they did so. So the percentage of
Christian churchgoers who uphold the traditionalist position, and from
whom supporters of the ex-gay movement can be drawn, is dwindling â€"
UNLESS we do something about it now.
>
> Revisionist women in my experience *routinely* refuse to recognise
that their views have driven heterosexual men away from Christian
churches altogether. That however does not just affect them, it also
has a knock-on effect on their more conservative sisters, who also
struggle to find Christian husbands because of the geographical spread
of Christians.
>
> What this is is *denial* of the wish for marriage. This denial is
neurotic â€" but it can also be found among many evangelicals in the
form of spiritualising ‘the gift of singleness’ in various ways.
It is a defence against the pain of looking for a suitable Christian
man when so many younger Christian men are very insecure in their
manhood, and are not getting the pastoral care they need about it.
This is offputting to women. (I am not thereby claiming that Christian
churchgoing women are all well-adjusted people; many are not! I have
heard many decent Christian men tell me how neurotic single Christian
women can be. The problem cuts both ways.)
>
> I think there’s another set of reasons why younger adults don’t
want to take a strong stance against homosexuality, and that is the
sense of being fed-up of some of the messages the evangelical
subculture has given out about how to approach sex, emotions and
relationships.
>
> Let’s face it there is a *great deal* of suspicion of emotions,
sexual desire and adult independence in much of the evangelical
subculture. In many circles, if you aren’t married by the age of 25,
you’re ‘on the shelf’. Codependency seems encouraged. The whole
spiritualised approach to dating and marriage â€" ‘waiting for the
one God has prepared for me’ type thing, irritates people no end,
and seems often like little more than a way for some people to
stigmatise the natural role of mutual liking and sexual attraction in
motivating a relationship. Once people have discarded the
spiritualising stuff and acknowledged the importance of their
emotions, they are less likely to be able to argue strongly against
accepting homosexuality, because that is seen as accepting one’s
feelings and being honest as opposed to spiritualising everything.
>
> Ultimately I think behind this all is a very deep-seated, not always
conscious *fear* of masculinity, partly due to the church reflecting
the sin of our culture, partly because many people have not grown up
with a decent male role-model. Avoiding the need to face the problems
with the undermining of marriage and the damage this will have on
future generations is a symptom of a neurotic generation of
churchgoers, many of whom are delaying marriage and childbearing (for
many different reasons, but some are undoubtedly neurotic.)
>
> There *has* to be more interaction between the ex-gay movement and
people interested in men’s and women’s issues in the churches.
Some people in the Christian men’s movement can be rather simplistic
about women and reactionary, behaving as if they believe welfare is a
Durkheimian zero-sum game: if women get more recognition as persons in
their own right, somehow this entails that men will get badmouthed.
>
> Anyway, I think I’ve said enough about this.
>
> I’d be interested to know if people think I am onto something."
>
> Anonymous
>

Hey Dan,

Glad to have you here - just remember you aren't alone. Lots of folks
are experiencing similar struggles. Thank you for sharing and I agree
- Charles Stanley is awesome!

Blessings and prayers,
Christa


--- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, "Dan" <orionsector@...>
wrote:
>
> This is my 1st post here. I've just lurked for awhile but wanted to
> introduce myself, get some stuff off my chest & pass along a link to
> a message that I heard the other day that (for me) is life changing I
> think.
>
> After hearing this message,I was sad, humbled and depressed and maybe
> a little excited at the same time. The message REALLY spoke right to
> me, made me think and act.
>
> I made a decision the other day that I didn't think I would ever
> make - I gave God total control over my sexuality - meaning I will
> not persue sexual gratification in any way from now on, especially
> masterbation, which is usually the rout to my other problems. I feel
> that this is something I'm gonna stay with. I even threw out any of
> the stuff I used for masterbation - everything. The masterbation was
> always the thig I said I had a "right" to, since I am single and
> refuse to (actually I'm afraid to) believe that God would ever change
> me or my circumstances. Since I am single and have no other outlets,
> I reasoned that I had a "right" to it. Besides, masterbation is kind
> of all I have and feel I ever will have, unless I act out with
> another person. Certainly (I reasoned) I could never be married
> because I'm not attracted to women & the idea of marriage is
> laughable. I'm not saying masterbation is a horrible sin, but for me
> it has been a huge negative influence and I can totally see how it's
> been a conduit for keeping me stuck for years.
>
> The reason I was sad and depressed after hearing this message is that
> my worst fear has always been that I will always be alone and
> celebate if I obey God. Honestly, I would rather die than live
> without a sex life for the rest of my life, even though as a
> Christain,for me sex has always been a curse rather than a gift &
> blessing. No, I'm not suicidal, but seriously considered it when I
> was 20yrs old. Now I'm 44 and still struggling with some of the same
> fears. These fears and my negative self talk have eventually usually
> undermined long term obedience in my life. I guess I can only
> conclude that I really don't trust God and have a real hard time
> giving up control, especially in this area because it is THE most
> important thing to me. I am working on the self talk and it works
> very well when I practice it. I definately understand that my
> attitude and self talk are my most vulnerable area (as Satan knows
> too). I'm working on that - mentally talking back to my fears and
> beliefs like I was encouraging another person. I do this while
> working out, so I'm killing 2 birds with one stone as they say.
>
> I love listening to Charles Stanley and the other day I heard what
> (for me) is a life changing message I think. I usually get his
> messages via Itunes (for free). The date and title are:
>
> "After Brokeness, What Then? - A" and the date is June 26, 2008.
>
> The direct link is here:http://www.intouch.org/site/c.dhKHIXPKIuE/
> b.2295509/k.9338/Audio_Archives.htm
>
> I'd like to know what people think of it and if it helps them too.
> Thanks~
> Dan
>

Hi my name is Titus and this is my first time posting a blog.I
thought I'd start by telling a little about the love that God has
shared with me.It started in 1998 when I moved to the beach to
spread the ashes of my dead lover.I do not want to bore you with
detales,I like to talk.Anywho,I met , or made a new friend and for
about two years she asked me to go to her church to hear the worship
band.One day I said ok.Well she was rite, I loved the music. After
worship was finished the big screen TV's came on at each end of the
church.They had a video tape of a women telling her testimony.She
caught my ear as she spoke of her life before giving it to Christ.
She spoke of the drugs , the same sex relationships, the party life
from one bed to another. The drinking , the bars and into Wicca.
I stood there hearing all of this and the next selfish thought
changed my life. I thought (what a sl-t).At that moement the power
of the Lord about knocked me over saying, Who are you to judge my
child? I knew that I was in the presence of God.Then the most
softest voice said to my heart,Take that off in my house, it was the
Wiccan penagram on the chain around my neck.As i ripped it from my
neck I fell sobbing and asking for forrgivness for my life.You see,
everthing that the women had spoke of about her past was my present
life,and I had stood in judgement not only of her but of myself
also.I seen my face on that TV screen when saying (sl-t).I gave my
life to God that day and life has ben bitter sweet ever since.I've
ben married for almost 5 years now, we met at bible study, talk
about a blessing.Anywho,,I could go on and on, I like to share the
love that is Christ.Glad I found ya'll.
exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, "Dan" <orionsector@...> wrote:
>
> This is my 1st post here. I've just lurked for awhile but wanted
to
> introduce myself, get some stuff off my chest & pass along a link
to
> a message that I heard the other day that (for me) is life
changing I
> think.
>
> After hearing this message,I was sad, humbled and depressed and
maybe
> a little excited at the same time. The message REALLY spoke right
to
> me, made me think and act.
>
> I made a decision the other day that I didn't think I would ever
> make - I gave God total control over my sexuality - meaning I will
> not persue sexual gratification in any way from now on, especially
> masterbation, which is usually the rout to my other problems. I
feel
> that this is something I'm gonna stay with. I even threw out any
of
> the stuff I used for masterbation - everything. The masterbation
was
> always the thig I said I had a "right" to, since I am single and
> refuse to (actually I'm afraid to) believe that God would ever
change
> me or my circumstances. Since I am single and have no other
outlets,
> I reasoned that I had a "right" to it. Besides, masterbation is
kind
> of all I have and feel I ever will have, unless I act out with
> another person. Certainly (I reasoned) I could never be married
> because I'm not attracted to women & the idea of marriage is
> laughable. I'm not saying masterbation is a horrible sin, but for
me
> it has been a huge negative influence and I can totally see how
it's
> been a conduit for keeping me stuck for years.
>
> The reason I was sad and depressed after hearing this message is
that
> my worst fear has always been that I will always be alone and
> celebate if I obey God. Honestly, I would rather die than live
> without a sex life for the rest of my life, even though as a
> Christain,for me sex has always been a curse rather than a gift &
> blessing. No, I'm not suicidal, but seriously considered it when I
> was 20yrs old. Now I'm 44 and still struggling with some of the
same
> fears. These fears and my negative self talk have eventually
usually
> undermined long term obedience in my life. I guess I can only
> conclude that I really don't trust God and have a real hard time
> giving up control, especially in this area because it is THE most
> important thing to me. I am working on the self talk and it works
> very well when I practice it. I definately understand that my
> attitude and self talk are my most vulnerable area (as Satan knows
> too). I'm working on that - mentally talking back to my fears and
> beliefs like I was encouraging another person. I do this while
> working out, so I'm killing 2 birds with one stone as they say.
>
> I love listening to Charles Stanley and the other day I heard what
> (for me) is a life changing message I think. I usually get his
> messages via Itunes (for free). The date and title are:
>
> "After Brokeness, What Then? - A" and the date is June 26, 2008.
>
> The direct link is here:http://www.intouch.org/site/c.dhKHIXPKIuE/
> b.2295509/k.9338/Audio_Archives.htm
>
> I'd like to know what people think of it and if it helps them too.
> Thanks~
> Dan
>

Thanks Dan,I feel it can be a way to release stress as long as it
does not become a sexual addiction.I was glad to hear that you know
what triggers you.Thats a plus.Anyway, thanks .--- In
exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, "Dan" <orionsector@...> wrote:
>
> well, I do agree about the absolute statements. My attitude was
> always that masterbation should be avoided if I was gonna
fantasize
> and sin. This has almost always been my pattern and it's the real
> problem, not the masterbation itself. Thats not to give myself an
> out, but lets face it, sometimes you just have to do it. I am
human
> and cannot just make believe my sexuality doesn't exist just
because
> I often feel it to be a curse. It's part of who I am and it isn't
bad
> in itself. When I make rigid rules for myself, I just ensure that
I
> will feel so hopeless that I will set myself up to fail. I have to
> give myself more grace.
>
> One thing I am doing now is that I am letting God have ownership
over
> my sexuality. One of my major fears that have always dominated my
> life was what to do about that area of my life, since Gods rules
> about sex seem to totally exclude a person like me and offer a
bleak
> future to say the least. Now (especially when tempted) I'm giving
it
> all to God rather than to think I need to work it out myself. He
can
> be responsible for If I ever have a sexual life, WHEN that will
> happen and HOW (on earth could it ever happen). I don't have much
> control over such things anyway.
>
> As far as lonliness, I guess I'm so used to being alone that I am
> usually not aware of that feeling. It's kind of always been there.
I
> don't think it's a major factor for me acting out. The deep down
> loneliness and feelings of emptyness and especially hopelessness
over
> this sexual brokeness are my major triggers. Boredom is also,
which
> stimulates my desire to masterbate and fantasize. Now I try to
clean
> my apt or something instead - it usually needs it anyway.
>
> I do own "Every Young Mans Battle". I didn't like the chapter on
> masterbation because I was not even willing to consider giving it
up,
> since it was all I had. I look at it differently now, but I'm not
> sure I would not sometimes do it if it was not assocaited with the
> fantasies anymore, which are the real problem.
>
> As far as books on the subject of masterbation, no I haven't
really
> read books on it. I don't think I am compulsive about it, although
> when I have acted out to the point of meeting people for sexual
> purposes, it has always been after masterbating on an almost daily
> basis for a short time. I don't feel I am addicted to it, but I've
> relied on it too frequently and it has been a fertile breeding
ground
> for all kinds of perverted fantasies and behaviours. I can totally
> see how I've programmed my brain through positive reinforcement
> (orgasm) to respond chemically to my masterbation related thoughs
> even when I am not masterbating. Like the Pavlovs' dogs story.
>
>
>
>
> --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Morey
> <moreytom@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks Dan, for your testimony of what God is doing in your
life.
> My name is Tom Morey, one of the moderators here at ExGDBd. Its a
> real encouragement to me to hear the things that He has been
telling
> you. I can totally relate with the SSA's, being single at age 52,
and
> the compulsive masturbation tendencies. Clearly, if you continue
on
> this same path and frame of mind that you described on a daily
basis,
> I believe too that you will not falter nor shrink back to giving
room
> again for an idolatrous life of compulsive masturbation, but
rather
> live consistently in His peace over it all. 
> >  
> > However, two things come to mind about this important issue. I
> believe that I can't make such absolute statements about living in
> freedom for the future anymore, since I have made them in the past
> and have become disillusioned when I resorted back to the same
form
> of idolatry. So, what I do now is only make those affirmation
> statements about today, and allow the Lord to take care of my
> tomorrow, in the meantime. Do you agree with this? The other thing
is
> that I'm wondering, outside of submitting to the Lord your
otherwise
> compulsive desires in your prayer time with Him, and thinking His
> thoughts about you after Him, making appropriate and positive self-
> affirmations, and following through accordingly, how do you
address
> the tangible loneliness factor? This issue for me has been a
> major trigger towards relapsing, and I find that even the
> aforementioned is not enough to preclude eventually another
relapse.
> Anticipating daily involvement in the service
> >  of the Lord of others, especially in the context of my local
> church, has helped greatly in this way. Do you have any
> suggestions?            
> >  
> > I will be looking forward to hearing the intouch program you
> suggested later on today, and any further posts that you make here
at
> the public forum. Have you been reading any books or have been
> viewing any websites on the subject matter of masturbation and
sexual
> temptation? If so, any recommendations?  I've read "Every Man's
> Battle" and "Every Young Man's Battle" by Steve Arterburn, which
were
> both very informative and helpful.
> >  
> > Blessings,
> >  
> > Tom
> >  
> >  --- On Mon, 6/30/08, Dan <orionsector@> wrote:
> >
> > From: Dan <orionsector@>
> > Subject: [ExGDBd] Re: My Intro & an Awesome message about
Brokeness
> & Surrender
> > To: exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Monday, June 30, 2008, 9:55 PM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > The link I provided doesn't seem to work correctly.
> >
> > Just go to intouch.org and from the drop down menue, select
> > "Broadcasts" and then "Audio Archives" and find the correctly
dated
> > message there.
> > Thanks~
> > Dan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

Being an ex-gay somtimes can still mess with my head.Sometimes I
think, where do you draw the line between makeing love and haveing sex
with your wife/husband? I understand that this all stems from my
childhood up. I've ben married now for almost 5 years and I still have
trouble in the ( love dept. ) from time to time, and more often than
not.I love my wife with all my heart and we work on this together.She
is a true blessing in my life.She also deals with simular issues from
childhood.So together we are growing and learning that love and s-x
don't have much in common.

A very good article written by the President of Exodus International at the
website NewMan.emagazine

However, I do believe that Alan is equivocating a bit in his usage of
terminology involving genetic causation and/or influences. Is he saying that
both genetic predetermination (i.e., blue eyes) and predisposition (i.e.,
alcoholism), which are quite different biological factors, are both irrelevant
and inconsequential regarding choices we make as people of faith? If so, I can
still see his point, since God commands us to abstain from ALL sexual immorality
(Leviticus 18; 1 Corinthians 6:18-20), even if we are genetically influenced, or
even programmed, to do otherwise. However, then some people of faith from an
opposing view do say that if some are genetically predetermined to be same sex
attracted, isn't that tantamount to constitutional characteristics; like
ethnicity, gender, and height? Would God then be calling them to deny whom they
were made to be by Him? This very question reveals the contradictory nasture of
such a phenomenon, and why many say
  that this hypothetical argument anyway remains just that, since it is
IMPOSSIBLE for there to be genetic predetermination, since 1) it clearly isn't
congruent with how God has said He has made us constitutionally; just two sexes,
male and female, made to be attracted to each other, and not there being a third
or fourth kind (i.e., pedophilia) of sexuality. (This reminds me of Kent
Philpot's book way back in the early eighties, called "The Third Sex"!) And, 2)
the identical twin studies over and over again throughout the 90's and into this
decade have contraindicated this as a possibility anyway, since congruency rates
had to be 100%. They were nowhere near this, being from 24% on down to even 0%
in one study. This shows the overwhelming predominance of environmental factors.

Your thoughts?

Blessings,

Tom


God and the Gay Gene

By Alan Chambers

I rarely go anywhere where the “gay gene” debate doesn't come up in
conversation. I guess that's what happens when you hang out your shingle as an
expert on the issue. I meet and talk with a lot of people who do not share my
biblical worldview on homosexuality. Generally they are ready for heated debate
and subsequently disarm when they hear my heart for people despite our opposing
views on the politics or morality of homosexuality.

This is generally a topic that, for many, makes or breaks the validity of
homosexual rights and serves as the determining factor on where being gay is
right or wrong. My views on this issue have evolved over the years. I have
realized two things: 1) We are all born genetically fallen; 2) The presence of a
gay gene wouldn't nullify the truth of the Bible concerning homosexuality.

I see the “gay gene” argument as nebulous, unnecessary and futile, in most
cases. Don't get me wrong—I am not opposed to scientists researching
homosexuality. The discovery of a gay gene or proof that there isn't one and any
other helpful information would be welcome news to this inquiring mind. How I am
wired genetically certainly affects me and any insight there would prove
beneficial.

The discovery of a “gay gene,” however, would not alter my beliefs, shake my
faith or rock my world. It would just be neutral information. In the midst of
the “gay gene” debate of the early 1990s, I decided that homosexual life
wasn't for me. I found it fun for a season, lonely for a lifetime and incapable
of meeting my needs. I chose, based upon all the information available and with
all clarity and freedom to pursue a life based on truth rather than sexual urges
and emotion. After nearly 18 years, I am living proof that life beyond
homosexuality is a viable option.

So, do I believe I have a “gay gene”? I have to answer an unequivocal, “I
don’t know”—followed by an equally unequivocal, “I honestly don't
care.” Was I born gay? No. That's ridiculous to think that a baby is gay or
straight. It is conceivable that there was some genetic or biological influence
on sexuality. But, as my friend and author of My Genes Made Me Do It, Dr. Neil
E. Whitehead, says, "Genes aren't tyrannical. They weren't meant to control us,
just influence."

Many things have been proven to have genetic influences: cancer, obesity,
alcoholism and rage to name a few. Those struggles are at work in most all of
our families. So, it's possible that we might all have some genetic
predisposition or propensity toward them. Does that mean, then, if my dad was
obese and I have struggled with weight issues that I am destined to be
overweight forever and should just accept it? No. Diabetes killed my dad and his
weight impacted that struggle. He taught me early on to eat well, exercise and
fight the urge to overeat. Today I have to work very hard, harder than most of
my friends, to stay trim and fit. Maybe I was born with the fat gene. I wasn't
born fat, though. And I don't call myself fat or ex-fat, for that matter.

Furthermore, no one is out fighting for or against the rights of the alcoholic
or persons affected by rage. We, as a responsible culture, are trying to
compassionately help those affected by these negative behavioral patterns.
Should someone be allowed to get drunk? As long as it doesn't negatively impact
another human being, yes. The same goes for people who want to engage in
homosexual behavior. Sadly, both are negatively impacting humanity.

Just because something is genetic doesn't mean it's healthy, optimal or moral.
The answer to the question of whether homosexuality is morally right doesn't
hinge on genetics. Similarly, gay rights should not be advanced on the basis of
the genetic outcome or theory either.

Many social conservatives believe it is essential to tow the party line on the
gay gene debate. A friend recently told me: “There isn't one and there could
never be one. God could never allow for there to be a ‘gay gene’ even though
He can allow for there to be a gene that is linked to cancer.”

Why is it so unimaginable that part of being a genetically, physically,
spiritually, emotionally, psychologically and relationally fallen world that
some might just have some genetic or biological factors that predispose them to
the possibility, given a lot of other factors, a struggle with homosexuality?
Just because there may be a genetic component doesn't make it right.

The biggest problem I find is that boiling this all down to genetics invalidates
the complexity of someone's struggle. I know families where cancer is common and
yet not everyone gets it. Why? More goes into having cancer than genetics. We
have to take into account someone's lifestyle and their environment. For someone
to struggle with homosexuality we must understand the developmental and
relational factors that prove far more significant than genes. I have two
adopted children and every book I have read has confirmed the truth that the
environment and family that they are raised in is far more influential than
their genetic predispositions to psychological problems.

As Christians, we need to move the "gay gene" debate to at least a side burner
if not all the way to the back one. Our goal isn't to win a debate. It is to win
souls. This debate is often a distracting catalyst for more division and
hostility. Now, I'm not saying that a respectful dialogue is out of order
because logic can be used to change a heart as well as a mind. But be sure to
pray and discern a situation and a person's receptivity to such dialogues before
you take all the time you might ever get with a nonbeliever to talk about
something that is secondary to the cross.

Alan Chambers is the president of Exodus International—the largest worldwide
Christian outreach to those dealing with unwanted same-sex attraction.

Yes, Christa, your experience seems to fit with the idea that Western culture
has lost its sense and way of the true masculine. The mystique of manhood as
God's intent a creation was apparently found by our ancestors when they began to
uphold a Judeo-Christian ethic of life over a thousand years ago. The worship of
self and stuff, better known as Western individualism and materialism, have
taken us away from this ethic, and men away from the family unit, leaving us
with no role model from which to learn and live. This seems to be a big part of
the reason for all kinds of sociocultural dysfunctional phenomena, including
both gay and lesbian issues, since it is the father that teaches both the son
and the daughter about their sexuality. It is also clearly why there are so many
single mom families, addicts, gangs, violence, and Americans imprisoned, just a
name a few others. A friend of mine referred to a depiction of this very thing
from Brad Pitt's
  pseudo-masculine Fight Club movie, when we were discussing this loss last
night. He said that Brad Pitt in the movie mentions to another fighter in the
locker room how he never learned about being a man from his father, and that he
believed that all adult men were like little boys just trying to find their way,
not really being compatible with women. Then he says in effect that just
maybe his male peers would make better companions! How sad, yet insightful. And
this, mind you, in a "no brains, all brawn and bloodshed" movie!
 
Blessings,
 
Tom            

--- On Sun, 7/6/08, ctickle777 <ctickle777@...> wrote:

From: ctickle777 <ctickle777@...>
Subject: [ExGDBd] Re: Why the increase in Christians wrongly believing that SSA
behavior is accept
To: exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 4:13 PM






Hey guys! Great article Tom! Very insightful and it appears to be
backed by a good deal of research on the part of the author.

I have an opinion - and perhaps an "uneducated" opinion that is based
solely upon my own experiences as well as some of my friends' views
and actions. I really think whomever posted this piece hit the nail on
the head with one particular issue: Christians (regardless their
gender) are dating and marrying outside their spiritual heritage
(non-Christians) .

I truly believe that a vast majority of Christian women (I was one of
these women) date men who are not true, reborn in the Spirit,
followers of Christ. Interestingly, women who want a relationship will
stoop to all sorts of levels in order to "have" that relationship.
Case in point, I was a Christian since the age of 19 and dated all
non-Christian men during college. My husband, fortunately, became a
Christian after we started dating; nonetheless, I did not seek out a
Christian man to date, court, etc. In fact, I wasn't fully aware that
a fine Christian man even existed! : ) I have at least five female
friends who I know very well, who have literally set their spiritual
lives aside in order to achieve that "relationship" with the opposite
sex. They'll do just about anything to have that relationship - and
will go so far as to abandon their own traditional beliefs in order to
appear more "tolerant" to the man/men they have chosen to love. It's
sad, really. Ironically, one such friend of mine has turned into a
totally different person since her recent relationship began. Once a
morally-conscious lady, she recently purchased a home with her new
beau and is now living with him outside the realm of marriage. Don't
get me wrong - I'm not judging her - I'm simply pointing out the
contradiction here and we're all guilty of it (me more so than most
others). She has now become very liberal in some of her beliefs. Quite
frankly, I think she has adopted her beau's persona a bit - his
beliefs have become hers.

Anyway, it's my opinion, but I think (whatever this may be labeled) is
a huge part of the problem. Just about every Christian female I have
ever known (all but one if I may be that brutally honest) has tread
down this path while dating. It's unfortunate and more research should
be conducted to determine what factors lead us to adopt the moral
standards and/or worldviews of others. Hence, more Christians do
little to nothing and just turn a blind eye to same-sex attraction.

Christa

--- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, Thomas Morey
<moreytom@.. .> wrote:
>
> I am including this response anonymously at this ex-gay discussion
group, which was originally posted at another. Please feel free to
respond to this thoughtful reply to my Q as well.
>
> Blessings,
>
> Tom
>
> "Dear Thomas,
>
> Thanks for this. It’s a very important that those of us who
support the ex-gay movement and conversion therapy really need to
discuss in more depth, and internationally.
>
> Please feel free to circulate what I say here (anonymously) to the
other ex-gay email lists to which you sent the original email. I want
to see a proper discussion started on the problem of how do we get
support from younger adults.
>
> It is true in my experience that too many younger adults my sort of
age (I’m 31) who attend churches that uphold the traditionalist
stance don’t really see homosexuality as a problem.
>
> I have theories as to why this might be.
>
> There seems to be a disproportionate percentage of Christians who
have problems with homosexuality, and more broadly with sexuality in
general. Part of the background to this, I think, is a greater
predisposition to anxiety and obsessiveness among churchgoers, a
greater neuroticism. Janelle Hallman said in her talk at NARTH last
year that homosexuality has become common among younger conservative
Christians in the USA because they are predisposed to extreme
sensitivity about heterosexual relationships, and recoil from the
utter chaos of the heterosexual dating scene, with problems like date
rape, and women being fed up with guys’ use of pornography.
>
> What this is is no less than Margaret Mead’s prediction in ‘Male
and Female’ coming true: there will come a time when many people
will not be able to stomach having a heterosexual relationship of the
kind that is expected in contemporary society.
>
> I have been round the block with all kinds of denominations,
including liberal churches. Most Christian adults my age have not done
this, as their faith journey has been the opposite of mine: from a
strict evangelical home to a big mega-church. I went to liberal
churches between the ages of 20 and 25 on and off, and felt let down
once I realised that they condoned homosexuality etc. So I’ve seen
what they are like; they also have their fair share of neuroticism and
major in passive aggression. Their sex-ratio is 2: 1 female to male,
much worse than many traditionalist churches.
>
> So-called revisionist or liberal Christians are much more
obsessively pro-homosexual than your average person in the street who
is non-religious, at least in Britain . There is a very important
piece of demographic research by the British sociologist of religion
David Voas that demonstrates this, but I don’t think it’s
available online any more. I shall try to find it.
>
> Voas found that young Anglicans were much more likely to be
revisionists, but young Baptists and others were not. In particular,
younger churchgoing women, especially Anglicans, were more likely to
be revisionist.
>
> Here’s another thing; Voas found that as many as half of younger
Christian men did not think homosexuality was really wrong, and as
many as two thirds of younger Christian women. This mirrors the uneven
sex-ratio of revisionist churches in an interesting way. It means that
Christian women with revisionist views have a low chance of marrying a
Christian man with revisionist views. Voas then found that while
children tended to follow their parents’ sexual morality, there
wasn’t a 100% chance that they did so. So the percentage of
Christian churchgoers who uphold the traditionalist position, and from
whom supporters of the ex-gay movement can be drawn, is dwindling â€"
UNLESS we do something about it now.
>
> Revisionist women in my experience *routinely* refuse to recognise
that their views have driven heterosexual men away from Christian
churches altogether. That however does not just affect them, it also
has a knock-on effect on their more conservative sisters, who also
struggle to find Christian husbands because of the geographical spread
of Christians.
>
> What this is is *denial* of the wish for marriage. This denial is
neurotic â€" but it can also be found among many evangelicals in the
form of spiritualising ‘the gift of singleness’ in various ways.
It is a defence against the pain of looking for a suitable Christian
man when so many younger Christian men are very insecure in their
manhood, and are not getting the pastoral care they need about it.
This is offputting to women. (I am not thereby claiming that Christian
churchgoing women are all well-adjusted people; many are not! I have
heard many decent Christian men tell me how neurotic single Christian
women can be. The problem cuts both ways.)
>
> I think there’s another set of reasons why younger adults don’t
want to take a strong stance against homosexuality, and that is the
sense of being fed-up of some of the messages the evangelical
subculture has given out about how to approach sex, emotions and
relationships.
>
> Let’s face it there is a *great deal* of suspicion of emotions,
sexual desire and adult independence in much of the evangelical
subculture. In many circles, if you aren’t married by the age of 25,
you’re ‘on the shelf’. Codependency seems encouraged. The whole
spiritualised approach to dating and marriage â€" ‘waiting for the
one God has prepared for me’ type thing, irritates people no end,
and seems often like little more than a way for some people to
stigmatise the natural role of mutual liking and sexual attraction in
motivating a relationship. Once people have discarded the
spiritualising stuff and acknowledged the importance of their
emotions, they are less likely to be able to argue strongly against
accepting homosexuality, because that is seen as accepting one’s
feelings and being honest as opposed to spiritualising everything.
>
> Ultimately I think behind this all is a very deep-seated, not always
conscious *fear* of masculinity, partly due to the church reflecting
the sin of our culture, partly because many people have not grown up
with a decent male role-model. Avoiding the need to face the problems
with the undermining of marriage and the damage this will have on
future generations is a symptom of a neurotic generation of
churchgoers, many of whom are delaying marriage and childbearing (for
many different reasons, but some are undoubtedly neurotic.)
>
> There *has* to be more interaction between the ex-gay movement and
people interested in men’s and women’s issues in the churches.
Some people in the Christian men’s movement can be rather simplistic
about women and reactionary, behaving as if they believe welfare is a
Durkheimian zero-sum game: if women get more recognition as persons in
their own right, somehow this entails that men will get badmouthed.
>
> Anyway, I think I’ve said enough about this.
>
> I’d be interested to know if people think I am onto something."
>
> Anonymous
>


















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"Faith is kept alive in us, and gathers strength, more from practice than from
speculation."

-Joseph Addison (1672-1719)
  Essayist and poet

Btw, I'd like to recommend to all our male members the Journey in Manhood
adventure weekend at <peoplecanchange.com>, in order to start addressing
personally this loss of the masculine, whether spiritual leader or laity,
ever-straight or SSAd.

Blessings,

Tom


--- On Tue, 7/8/08, Thomas Morey <moreytom@...> wrote:

> From: Thomas Morey <moreytom@...>
> Subject: Re: [ExGDBd] Re: Why the increase in Christians wrongly believing
that SSA behavior is accept
> To: exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 12:51 PM
> Yes, Christa, your experience seems to fit with the idea
> that Western culture has lost its sense and way of the true
> masculine. The mystique of manhood as God's intent a
> creation was apparently found by our ancestors when they
> began to uphold a Judeo-Christian ethic of life over a
> thousand years ago. The worship of self and stuff, better
> known as Western individualism and materialism, have taken
> us away from this ethic, and men away from the family
> unit, leaving us with no role model from which to learn and
> live. This seems to be a big part of the reason for all
> kinds of sociocultural dysfunctional phenomena, including
> both gay and lesbian issues, since it is the father that
> teaches both the son and the daughter about their
> sexuality. It is also clearly why there are so many single
> mom families, addicts, gangs, violence, and Americans
> imprisoned, just a name a few others. A friend of
> mine referred to a depiction of this very thing from Brad
> Pitt's
>  pseudo-masculine Fight Club movie, when we were discussing
> this loss last night. He said that Brad Pitt in the movie
> mentions to another fighter in the locker room how he
> never learned about being a man from his father, and that
> he believed that all adult men were like little boys just
> trying to find their way, not really being compatible with
> women. Then he says in effect that just maybe his male
> peers would make better companions! How sad, yet
> insightful. And this, mind you, in a "no brains, all
> brawn and bloodshed" movie!
>  
> Blessings,
>  
> Tom            
>
> --- On Sun, 7/6/08, ctickle777 <ctickle777@...>
> wrote:
>
> From: ctickle777 <ctickle777@...>
> Subject: [ExGDBd] Re: Why the increase in Christians
> wrongly believing that SSA behavior is accept
> To: exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 4:13 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hey guys! Great article Tom! Very insightful and it appears
> to be
> backed by a good deal of research on the part of the
> author.
>
> I have an opinion - and perhaps an "uneducated"
> opinion that is based
> solely upon my own experiences as well as some of my
> friends' views
> and actions. I really think whomever posted this piece hit
> the nail on
> the head with one particular issue: Christians (regardless
> their
> gender) are dating and marrying outside their spiritual
> heritage
> (non-Christians) .
>
> I truly believe that a vast majority of Christian women (I
> was one of
> these women) date men who are not true, reborn in the
> Spirit,
> followers of Christ. Interestingly, women who want a
> relationship will
> stoop to all sorts of levels in order to "have"
> that relationship.
> Case in point, I was a Christian since the age of 19 and
> dated all
> non-Christian men during college. My husband, fortunately,
> became a
> Christian after we started dating; nonetheless, I did not
> seek out a
> Christian man to date, court, etc. In fact, I wasn't
> fully aware that
> a fine Christian man even existed! : ) I have at least five
> female
> friends who I know very well, who have literally set their
> spiritual
> lives aside in order to achieve that
> "relationship" with the opposite
> sex. They'll do just about anything to have that
> relationship - and
> will go so far as to abandon their own traditional beliefs
> in order to
> appear more "tolerant" to the man/men they have
> chosen to love. It's
> sad, really. Ironically, one such friend of mine has turned
> into a
> totally different person since her recent relationship
> began. Once a
> morally-conscious lady, she recently purchased a home with
> her new
> beau and is now living with him outside the realm of
> marriage. Don't
> get me wrong - I'm not judging her - I'm simply
> pointing out the
> contradiction here and we're all guilty of it (me more
> so than most
> others). She has now become very liberal in some of her
> beliefs. Quite
> frankly, I think she has adopted her beau's persona a
> bit - his
> beliefs have become hers.
>
> Anyway, it's my opinion, but I think (whatever this may
> be labeled) is
> a huge part of the problem. Just about every Christian
> female I have
> ever known (all but one if I may be that brutally honest)
> has tread
> down this path while dating. It's unfortunate and more
> research should
> be conducted to determine what factors lead us to adopt the
> moral
> standards and/or worldviews of others. Hence, more
> Christians do
> little to nothing and just turn a blind eye to same-sex
> attraction.
>
> Christa
>
> --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, Thomas Morey
> <moreytom@.. .> wrote:
> >
> > I am including this response anonymously at this
> ex-gay discussion
> group, which was originally posted at another. Please feel
> free to
> respond to this thoughtful reply to my Q as well.
> >
> > Blessings,
> >
> > Tom
> >
> > "Dear Thomas,
> >
> > Thanks for this. It’s a very important that
> those of us who
> support the ex-gay movement and conversion therapy really
> need to
> discuss in more depth, and internationally.
> >
> > Please feel free to circulate what I say here
> (anonymously) to the
> other ex-gay email lists to which you sent the original
> email. I want
> to see a proper discussion started on the problem of how do
> we get
> support from younger adults.
> >
> > It is true in my experience that too many younger
> adults my sort of
> age (I’m 31) who attend churches that uphold the
> traditionalist
> stance don’t really see homosexuality as a problem.
> >
> > I have theories as to why this might be.
> >
> > There seems to be a disproportionate percentage of
> Christians who
> have problems with homosexuality, and more broadly with
> sexuality in
> general. Part of the background to this, I think, is a
> greater
> predisposition to anxiety and obsessiveness among
> churchgoers, a
> greater neuroticism. Janelle Hallman said in her talk at
> NARTH last
> year that homosexuality has become common among younger
> conservative
> Christians in the USA because they are predisposed to
> extreme
> sensitivity about heterosexual relationships, and recoil
> from the
> utter chaos of the heterosexual dating scene, with problems
> like date
> rape, and women being fed up with guys’ use of
> pornography.
> >
> > What this is is no less than Margaret Mead’s
> prediction in ‘Male
> and Female’ coming true: there will come a time when
> many people
> will not be able to stomach having a heterosexual
> relationship of the
> kind that is expected in contemporary society.
> >
> > I have been round the block with all kinds of
> denominations,
> including liberal churches. Most Christian adults my age
> have not done
> this, as their faith journey has been the opposite of mine:
> from a
> strict evangelical home to a big mega-church. I went to
> liberal
> churches between the ages of 20 and 25 on and off, and felt
> let down
> once I realised that they condoned homosexuality etc. So
> I’ve seen
> what they are like; they also have their fair share of
> neuroticism and
> major in passive aggression. Their sex-ratio is 2: 1 female
> to male,
> much worse than many traditionalist churches.
> >
> > So-called revisionist or liberal Christians are much
> more
> obsessively pro-homosexual than your average person in the
> street who
> is non-religious, at least in Britain . There is a very
> important
> piece of demographic research by the British sociologist of
> religion
> David Voas that demonstrates this, but I don’t think
> it’s
> available online any more. I shall try to find it.
> >
> > Voas found that young Anglicans were much more likely
> to be
> revisionists, but young Baptists and others were not. In
> particular,
> younger churchgoing women, especially Anglicans, were more
> likely to
> be revisionist.
> >
> > Here’s another thing; Voas found that as many
> as half of younger
> Christian men did not think homosexuality was really wrong,
> and as
> many as two thirds of younger Christian women. This mirrors
> the uneven
> sex-ratio of revisionist churches in an interesting way. It
> means that
> Christian women with revisionist views have a low chance of
> marrying a
> Christian man with revisionist views. Voas then found that
> while
> children tended to follow their parents’ sexual
> morality, there
> wasn’t a 100% chance that they did so. So the
> percentage of
> Christian churchgoers who uphold the traditionalist
> position, and from
> whom supporters of the ex-gay movement can be drawn, is
> dwindling â€"
> UNLESS we do something about it now.
> >
> > Revisionist women in my experience *routinely* refuse
> to recognise
> that their views have driven heterosexual men away from
> Christian
> churches altogether. That however does not just affect
> them, it also
> has a knock-on effect on their more conservative sisters,
> who also
> struggle to find Christian husbands because of the
> geographical spread
> of Christians.
> >
> > What this is is *denial* of the wish for marriage.
> This denial is
> neurotic â€" but it can also be found among many
> evangelicals in the
> form of spiritualising ‘the gift of
> singleness’ in various ways.
> It is a defence against the pain of looking for a suitable
> Christian
> man when so many younger Christian men are very insecure in
> their
> manhood, and are not getting the pastoral care they need
> about it.
> This is offputting to women. (I am not thereby claiming
> that Christian
> churchgoing women are all well-adjusted people; many are
> not! I have
> heard many decent Christian men tell me how neurotic single
> Christian
> women can be. The problem cuts both ways.)
> >
> > I think there’s another set of reasons why
> younger adults don’t
> want to take a strong stance against homosexuality, and
> that is the
> sense of being fed-up of some of the messages the
> evangelical
> subculture has given out about how to approach sex,
> emotions and
> relationships.
> >
> > Let’s face it there is a *great deal* of
> suspicion of emotions,
> sexual desire and adult independence in much of the
> evangelical
> subculture. In many circles, if you aren’t married
> by the age of 25,
> you’re ‘on the shelf’. Codependency
> seems encouraged. The whole
> spiritualised approach to dating and marriage â€"
> ‘waiting for the
> one God has prepared for me’ type thing, irritates
> people no end,
> and seems often like little more than a way for some people
> to
> stigmatise the natural role of mutual liking and sexual
> attraction in
> motivating a relationship. Once people have discarded the
> spiritualising stuff and acknowledged the importance of
> their
> emotions, they are less likely to be able to argue strongly
> against
> accepting homosexuality, because that is seen as accepting
> one’s
> feelings and being honest as opposed to spiritualising
> everything.
> >
> > Ultimately I think behind this all is a very
> deep-seated, not always
> conscious *fear* of masculinity, partly due to the church
> reflecting
> the sin of our culture, partly because many people have not
> grown up
> with a decent male role-model. Avoiding the need to face
> the problems
> with the undermining of marriage and the damage this will
> have on
> future generations is a symptom of a neurotic generation of
> churchgoers, many of whom are delaying marriage and
> childbearing (for
> many different reasons, but some are undoubtedly neurotic.)
> >
> > There *has* to be more interaction between the ex-gay
> movement and
> people interested in men’s and women’s issues
> in the churches.
> Some people in the Christian men’s movement can be
> rather simplistic
> about women and reactionary, behaving as if they believe
> welfare is a
> Durkheimian zero-sum game: if women get more recognition as
> persons in
> their own right, somehow this entails that men will get
> badmouthed.
> >
> > Anyway, I think I’ve said enough about this.
> >
> > I’d be interested to know if people think I am
> onto something."
> >
> > Anonymous
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Questions about the group?  Contact our Director &
> Founder, Alan Levering, directly at: ncxds@...
>
> The Ex-Gay Discussion Board is a ministry of NCXDS Ex-Gay
> Internet Christian Ministries
>
> MINISTRY LINKS!! Feel free to link to these pages on your
> own website:
>
> Web: <http://geocities.com/exgaylinks> | Discussion
> Board:
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exgaydiscussionboard>
> | Spanish Language Discussion Board:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exgayenespa | "Wounded
> Heart" Abused Men's Group:
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> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exgaydiscussionboard/chat>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
> mailto:exgaydiscussionboard-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>

Hi Tom, Great topic.Have you ever read The Homosexual Agenda,by Alan
Sears and Craig Osten?.In my opion it's a must read book.Check it
out people.--- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Morey
<moreytom@...> wrote:
>
> Btw, I'd like to recommend to all our male members the Journey in
Manhood adventure weekend at <peoplecanchange.com>, in order to
start addressing personally this loss of the masculine, whether
spiritual leader or laity, ever-straight or SSAd.
>
> Blessings,
>
> Tom
>
>
> --- On Tue, 7/8/08, Thomas Morey <moreytom@...> wrote:
>
> > From: Thomas Morey <moreytom@...>
> > Subject: Re: [ExGDBd] Re: Why the increase in Christians wrongly
believing that SSA behavior is accept
> > To: exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 12:51 PM
> > Yes, Christa, your experience seems to fit with the idea
> > that Western culture has lost its sense and way of the true
> > masculine. The mystique of manhood as God's intent a
> > creation was apparently found by our ancestors when they
> > began to uphold a Judeo-Christian ethic of life over a
> > thousand years ago. The worship of self and stuff, better
> > known as Western individualism and materialism, have taken
> > us away from this ethic, and men away from the family
> > unit, leaving us with no role model from which to learn and
> > live. This seems to be a big part of the reason for all
> > kinds of sociocultural dysfunctional phenomena, including
> > both gay and lesbian issues, since it is the father that
> > teaches both the son and the daughter about their
> > sexuality. It is also clearly why there are so many single
> > mom families, addicts, gangs, violence, and Americans
> > imprisoned, just a name a few others. A friend of
> > mine referred to a depiction of this very thing from Brad
> > Pitt's
> >  pseudo-masculine Fight Club movie, when we were discussing
> > this loss last night. He said that Brad Pitt in the movie
> > mentions to another fighter in the locker room how he
> > never learned about being a man from his father, and that
> > he believed that all adult men were like little boys just
> > trying to find their way, not really being compatible with
> > women. Then he says in effect that just maybe his male
> > peers would make better companions! How sad, yet
> > insightful. And this, mind you, in a "no brains, all
> > brawn and bloodshed" movie!
> >  
> > Blessings,
> >  
> > Tom            
> >
> > --- On Sun, 7/6/08, ctickle777 <ctickle777@...>
> > wrote:
> >
> > From: ctickle777 <ctickle777@...>
> > Subject: [ExGDBd] Re: Why the increase in Christians
> > wrongly believing that SSA behavior is accept
> > To: exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 4:13 PM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hey guys! Great article Tom! Very insightful and it appears
> > to be
> > backed by a good deal of research on the part of the
> > author.
> >
> > I have an opinion - and perhaps an "uneducated"
> > opinion that is based
> > solely upon my own experiences as well as some of my
> > friends' views
> > and actions. I really think whomever posted this piece hit
> > the nail on
> > the head with one particular issue: Christians (regardless
> > their
> > gender) are dating and marrying outside their spiritual
> > heritage
> > (non-Christians) .
> >
> > I truly believe that a vast majority of Christian women (I
> > was one of
> > these women) date men who are not true, reborn in the
> > Spirit,
> > followers of Christ. Interestingly, women who want a
> > relationship will
> > stoop to all sorts of levels in order to "have"
> > that relationship.
> > Case in point, I was a Christian since the age of 19 and
> > dated all
> > non-Christian men during college. My husband, fortunately,
> > became a
> > Christian after we started dating; nonetheless, I did not
> > seek out a
> > Christian man to date, court, etc. In fact, I wasn't
> > fully aware that
> > a fine Christian man even existed! : ) I have at least five
> > female
> > friends who I know very well, who have literally set their
> > spiritual
> > lives aside in order to achieve that
> > "relationship" with the opposite
> > sex. They'll do just about anything to have that
> > relationship - and
> > will go so far as to abandon their own traditional beliefs
> > in order to
> > appear more "tolerant" to the man/men they have
> > chosen to love. It's
> > sad, really. Ironically, one such friend of mine has turned
> > into a
> > totally different person since her recent relationship
> > began. Once a
> > morally-conscious lady, she recently purchased a home with
> > her new
> > beau and is now living with him outside the realm of
> > marriage. Don't
> > get me wrong - I'm not judging her - I'm simply
> > pointing out the
> > contradiction here and we're all guilty of it (me more
> > so than most
> > others). She has now become very liberal in some of her
> > beliefs. Quite
> > frankly, I think she has adopted her beau's persona a
> > bit - his
> > beliefs have become hers.
> >
> > Anyway, it's my opinion, but I think (whatever this may
> > be labeled) is
> > a huge part of the problem. Just about every Christian
> > female I have
> > ever known (all but one if I may be that brutally honest)
> > has tread
> > down this path while dating. It's unfortunate and more
> > research should
> > be conducted to determine what factors lead us to adopt the
> > moral
> > standards and/or worldviews of others. Hence, more
> > Christians do
> > little to nothing and just turn a blind eye to same-sex
> > attraction.
> >
> > Christa
> >
> > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, Thomas Morey
> > <moreytom@ .> wrote:
> > >
> > > I am including this response anonymously at this
> > ex-gay discussion
> > group, which was originally posted at another. Please feel
> > free to
> > respond to this thoughtful reply to my Q as well.
> > >
> > > Blessings,
> > >
> > > Tom
> > >
> > > "Dear Thomas,
> > >
> > > Thanks for this. It’s a very important that
> > those of us who
> > support the ex-gay movement and conversion therapy really
> > need to
> > discuss in more depth, and internationally.
> > >
> > > Please feel free to circulate what I say here
> > (anonymously) to the
> > other ex-gay email lists to which you sent the original
> > email. I want
> > to see a proper discussion started on the problem of how do
> > we get
> > support from younger adults.
> > >
> > > It is true in my experience that too many younger
> > adults my sort of
> > age (I’m 31) who attend churches that uphold the
> > traditionalist
> > stance don’t really see homosexuality as a problem.
> > >
> > > I have theories as to why this might be.
> > >
> > > There seems to be a disproportionate percentage of
> > Christians who
> > have problems with homosexuality, and more broadly with
> > sexuality in
> > general. Part of the background to this, I think, is a
> > greater
> > predisposition to anxiety and obsessiveness among
> > churchgoers, a
> > greater neuroticism. Janelle Hallman said in her talk at
> > NARTH last
> > year that homosexuality has become common among younger
> > conservative
> > Christians in the USA because they are predisposed to
> > extreme
> > sensitivity about heterosexual relationships, and recoil
> > from the
> > utter chaos of the heterosexual dating scene, with problems
> > like date
> > rape, and women being fed up with guys’ use of
> > pornography.
> > >
> > > What this is is no less than Margaret Mead’s
> > prediction in ‘Male
> > and Female’ coming true: there will come a time when
> > many people
> > will not be able to stomach having a heterosexual
> > relationship of the
> > kind that is expected in contemporary society.
> > >
> > > I have been round the block with all kinds of
> > denominations,
> > including liberal churches. Most Christian adults my age
> > have not done
> > this, as their faith journey has been the opposite of mine:
> > from a
> > strict evangelical home to a big mega-church. I went to
> > liberal
> > churches between the ages of 20 and 25 on and off, and felt
> > let down
> > once I realised that they condoned homosexuality etc. So
> > I’ve seen
> > what they are like; they also have their fair share of
> > neuroticism and
> > major in passive aggression. Their sex-ratio is 2: 1 female
> > to male,
> > much worse than many traditionalist churches.
> > >
> > > So-called revisionist or liberal Christians are much
> > more
> > obsessively pro-homosexual than your average person in the
> > street who
> > is non-religious, at least in Britain . There is a very
> > important
> > piece of demographic research by the British sociologist of
> > religion
> > David Voas that demonstrates this, but I don’t think
> > it’s
> > available online any more. I shall try to find it.
> > >
> > > Voas found that young Anglicans were much more likely
> > to be
> > revisionists, but young Baptists and others were not. In
> > particular,
> > younger churchgoing women, especially Anglicans, were more
> > likely to
> > be revisionist.
> > >
> > > Here’s another thing; Voas found that as many
> > as half of younger
> > Christian men did not think homosexuality was really wrong,
> > and as
> > many as two thirds of younger Christian women. This mirrors
> > the uneven
> > sex-ratio of revisionist churches in an interesting way. It
> > means that
> > Christian women with revisionist views have a low chance of
> > marrying a
> > Christian man with revisionist views. Voas then found that
> > while
> > children tended to follow their parents’ sexual
> > morality, there
> > wasn’t a 100% chance that they did so. So the
> > percentage of
> > Christian churchgoers who uphold the traditionalist
> > position, and from
> > whom supporters of the ex-gay movement can be drawn, is
> > dwindling â€"
> > UNLESS we do something about it now.
> > >
> > > Revisionist women in my experience *routinely* refuse
> > to recognise
> > that their views have driven heterosexual men away from
> > Christian
> > churches altogether. That however does not just affect
> > them, it also
> > has a knock-on effect on their more conservative sisters,
> > who also
> > struggle to find Christian husbands because of the
> > geographical spread
> > of Christians.
> > >
> > > What this is is *denial* of the wish for marriage.
> > This denial is
> > neurotic â€" but it can also be found among many
> > evangelicals in the
> > form of spiritualising ‘the gift of
> > singleness’ in various ways.
> > It is a defence against the pain of looking for a suitable
> > Christian
> > man when so many younger Christian men are very insecure in
> > their
> > manhood, and are not getting the pastoral care they need
> > about it.
> > This is offputting to women. (I am not thereby claiming
> > that Christian
> > churchgoing women are all well-adjusted people; many are
> > not! I have
> > heard many decent Christian men tell me how neurotic single
> > Christian
> > women can be. The problem cuts both ways.)
> > >
> > > I think there’s another set of reasons why
> > younger adults don’t
> > want to take a strong stance against homosexuality, and
> > that is the
> > sense of being fed-up of some of the messages the
> > evangelical
> > subculture has given out about how to approach sex,
> > emotions and
> > relationships.
> > >
> > > Let’s face it there is a *great deal* of
> > suspicion of emotions,
> > sexual desire and adult independence in much of the
> > evangelical
> > subculture. In many circles, if you aren’t married
> > by the age of 25,
> > you’re ‘on the shelf’. Codependency
> > seems encouraged. The whole
> > spiritualised approach to dating and marriage â€"
> > ‘waiting for the
> > one God has prepared for me’ type thing, irritates
> > people no end,
> > and seems often like little more than a way for some people
> > to
> > stigmatise the natural role of mutual liking and sexual
> > attraction in
> > motivating a relationship. Once people have discarded the
> > spiritualising stuff and acknowledged the importance of
> > their
> > emotions, they are less likely to be able to argue strongly
> > against
> > accepting homosexuality, because that is seen as accepting
> > one’s
> > feelings and being honest as opposed to spiritualising
> > everything.
> > >
> > > Ultimately I think behind this all is a very
> > deep-seated, not always
> > conscious *fear* of masculinity, partly due to the church
> > reflecting
> > the sin of our culture, partly because many people have not
> > grown up
> > with a decent male role-model. Avoiding the need to face
> > the problems
> > with the undermining of marriage and the damage this will
> > have on
> > future generations is a symptom of a neurotic generation of
> > churchgoers, many of whom are delaying marriage and
> > childbearing (for
> > many different reasons, but some are undoubtedly neurotic.)
> > >
> > > There *has* to be more interaction between the ex-gay
> > movement and
> > people interested in men’s and women’s issues
> > in the churches.
> > Some people in the Christian men’s movement can be
> > rather simplistic
> > about women and reactionary, behaving as if they believe
> > welfare is a
> > Durkheimian zero-sum game: if women get more recognition as
> > persons in
> > their own right, somehow this entails that men will get
> > badmouthed.
> > >
> > > Anyway, I think I’ve said enough about this.
> > >
> > > I’d be interested to know if people think I am
> > onto something."
> > >
> > > Anonymous
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Questions about the group?  Contact our Director &
> > Founder, Alan Levering, directly at: ncxds@...
> >
> > The Ex-Gay Discussion Board is a ministry of NCXDS Ex-Gay
> > Internet Christian Ministries
> >
> > MINISTRY LINKS!! Feel free to link to these pages on your
> > own website:
> >
> > Web: <http://geocities.com/exgaylinks> | Discussion
> > Board:
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exgaydiscussionboard>
> > | Spanish Language Discussion Board:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exgayenespa | "Wounded
> > Heart" Abused Men's Group:
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/woundedheart> | Chat:
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exgaydiscussionboard/chat>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> > mailto:exgaydiscussionboard-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
> >
>

-Hi, Im new to the group and actually belong to a couple of others
given by this group and I wanted to post what I said in the other
one after raeding a post. I'm hoping their will be some one from
this group that could help or that I could help.

When I read this I couldnt help but feel he was not just being a
homosexual man having a couple affairs but rather a man struggling
with a sexual addiction or something who happened to be homosexual.
He couldnt help himself that many times? and had to go tell his wife
each time breaking her heart over and over again? Wasnt that enough
the first few times to rethink having continued affairs. Not
rethinking himself being homosexual becasue I understand that is a
differnt story but help himself with just all the affairs he was
having. I dont know if I could have been so strong hearing that over
and over. Just my thoughts on it. Thanks for the posting of these.
It has made me think about things I dont want to think about but
much needed.I always seem to put on the back burner simply becasue I
cant face it I guess. Although it does feel as though some of the
pressure is off me in the way that I always thought it was me. I was
always trying to be a better wife or think it was something I did
that made him not want to have sex with me or have any kind of
intimacy with me. That hurt so bad. Night after night I soaked my
pillow in tears as he layed next to me in dream land. I know he
heard me many times crying into my pillow facing the wall dying just
for maybe just a arm around me, anything!! expecially after I
confronted him but he never seem to care enough to turn over and at
least talk to me or just hold me. Anything!! But dont just let me
cry all night wanting to just die. I realize now that this man wasnt
just gay but he never loved me or acred deeply for me. Something
else Im trying to understand. We were together so long and it was
always that way. What is wrong with me? The worst thing is right now
hes seeing another women. He sais their is no se, no affection none
the less he is seeing another women. Before I was even gone out of
my home he was cheating. Why wasn't a man? I know he is scarred to
death of that info. getting out. but still. He is government for the
past 10 years and before that he was Navy for almost 12 years. So
you know how it is in that situation alot of the time. Unfortuatley
I also put way to much in the sexual aspect of our marriage.
Although when you are not getting it, that is the time you are
always thinking about it! According to Dr. Phil anyway. LOL he knew
this too, that is why he rather ignore me I think rather than have
to talk about it, face up to it or do the dirty deed and have sex
with me, his very own wife! It was such a chore for him. My heart
was breaking. I thought myself do be of average looking even rather
pretty from what they say yet my self esteem went into the gutter
and I though that I had to be the ugliest thing walking for my own
husband not to ever want me! Maybe it was the extra weight I started
putting on. You know all the questiuons and self doubt you fill your
head and heart with, you know? I'm finally trusting myself more to
start dealing with it. I know now that it wasnt my fault although my
self esteem is still very fragil, rather beat-up actually but none
the less I'm working on it. I just cant help but feel although you
cant help them being homosexual in the marriage but what was wrong
with me in the first place to attract a homosexual man or not to see
it. How come I can see it a mile away in any other man or women yet
their I was lying in bed with it every night starring it in the face
and I didnt have a clue? What is wrong with me? Did this happen to
anyone else. Was your husband the only one ou didnt see it in.
Rather masculine for being gay or maybe Im just completley in denial
although no one else knows or mentioned any such thing about it? I
dont know what to think and I DO NOT want to repeat the past. This
actually worries me ALOT! Help!
Ellen

Hi,

Please take note of my email adress change!

My new email adress is therisenphoenix777@...
[mailto:istherisenphoenix777@...]

ThanksTobi


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/GTYW04.htm

I am passing this on for those who are not aware of McDonald's stand regarding
this issue, and would, with this knowledge, be bound by conscience to no longer
to patronize there. The mass media, of course, is totally quiet about it. Why
this matter with McDonald's is so critical is because: 1) they have been
refusing to stay neutral about such a hot button issue since a year ago, 2) they
continue to do this under the guise of being a family restaurant, 3) they are
now deceitfully mischaracterizing those who not only oppose their decision, but
just disagree with them, as bigots, when the issue has nothing to do with
gay-identified folks employment rights. It is strictly around the gay marriage
issue, and the restaurant financially supporting GLBT activists, along with a
member of their own board of directors accepting a place on an activist board.

McDonald's: same-sex 'marriage' opponents motivated by hate

Allie Martin - OneNewsNow - 7/12/2008 4:15AM

A spokesman for McDonald's restaurants says those who oppose same-sex "marriage"
are motivated by hate.

Earlier this month, the American Family Association (AFA) called for a boycott
of the hamburger giant because of the company's promotion of the homosexual
agenda. The AFA took issue with McDonald's refusal to remain neutral in the
culture war.

But in a recent Washington Post article, McDonald's spokesman Bill Whitman
suggested that those who oppose same-sex "marriage" are motivated by hate.
However, AFA Founder Don Wildmon disagrees and says McDonald's has bought into
rhetoric used by homosexual activists.

"They've said for years and years that if you oppose their lifestyle, then you
are a hateful person," notes Wildmon. "We've given McDonald's ample opportunity
to stop supporting the homosexual agenda. They have said in no uncertain terms
that they are going to go on supporting the homosexual groups and helping the
National Gay and Lesbian Chamber of Commerce go before Congress and lobby for a
national right to marry," he points out.

Wildmon adds that most people are unaware of McDonald's cooperation with
homosexual activist groups. "All they see is Ronald McDonald and the kids
playing," he continues. "We're asking people to tell your neighbors about it.
Call your local McDonald's restaurant, be kind and polite, you don't have to be
ugly at all, and let the manager know, hey, I'm not coming back until McDonald's
stops supporting the homosexual agenda," says Wildmon.

McDonald's donated $20,000 to the National Gay and Lesbian Chamber of Commerce,
in exchange for membership and a seat on the group's board of directors.

The American Family Association is the parent organization of the American
Family News Network, which operates OneNewsNow.com.

What does Love mean?
A group of professional people posed this question to a group of 4 to 8
year-olds, "What does love mean?"

The answers they got were broader and deeper than anyone could have
imagined. See what you think:


"When my grandmother got arthritis, she couldn't bend over and paint her
toenails anymore.

So my grandfather does it for her all the time, even when his hands got
arthritis too. That's love."

Rebecca- age 8


"When someone loves you, the way they say your name is different.
You just know that your name is safe in their mouth"

Billy - age 4


"Love is when a girl puts on perfume and a boy puts on shaving cologne and
they go out and smell each other."

Karl - age 5


"Love is when you go out to eat and give somebody most of your French
fries without making them give you any of theirs."Chrissy - age 6


"Love is what makes you smile when you're tired."

Terri - age 4


"Love is when my mommy makes coffee for my daddy and she takes a sip
before giving it to him, to make sure the taste is OK."

Danny - age 7


"Love is when you kiss all the time. Then when you get tired of kissing,
you still want to be together and you talk more.
My Mommy and Daddy are like that. They look gross when they kiss"

Emily - age 8

"Love is what's in the room with you at Christmas if you stop opening
presents and listen"

Bobby - age 7 (Wow!)


"If you want to learn to love better, you should start with a friend who
you hate,"

Nikka - age 6

(we need a few million more Nikka's on this planet)


"Love is when you tell a guy you like his shirt, then he wears it
everyday."

Noelle - age 7


"Love is like a little old woman and a little old man who are still
friends even after they know each other so well."

Tommy - age 6


"During my piano recital, I was on a stage and I was scared. I looked at
all the people watching me and saw my daddy waving and smiling.

He was the only one doing that. I wasn't scared anymore."

Cindy - age 8


"My mommy loves me more than anybody

You don't see anyone else kissing me to sleep at night."

Clare - age 6


"Love is when Mommy gives Daddy the best piece of chicken."

Elaine-age 5


"Love is when Mommy sees Daddy smelly and sweaty and still says he is
handsomer than Robert Redford."

Chris - age 7


"Love is when your puppy licks your face even after you left him alone all
day."

Mary Ann - age 4


"I know my older sister loves me because she gives me all her old clothes
and has to go out and buy new ones."

Lauren - age 4


"When you love somebody, your eyelashes go up and down and little stars
come out of you." (what an image)

Karen - age 7


"Love is when Mommy sees Daddy on the toilet and she doesn't think it's
gross."

Mark - age 6


"You really shouldn't say 'I love you' unless you mean it. But if you mean
it, you should say it a lot. People forget."

Jessica - age 8


And the final one -- Author and lecturer Leo Buscaglia once talked about a
contest he was asked to judge.

The purpose of the contest was to find the most caring child.

The winner was a four year old child whose next door neighbor was an
elderly gentleman who had recently lost his wife.

Upon seeing the man cry, the little boy went into the old gentleman's
yard, climbed onto his lap, and just sat there.

When his Mother asked what he had said to the neighbor, the little boy
said,

"Nothing, I just helped him cry"







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Can a person live a sincere Christian life as a homosexual?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkCkXU0e75k

by Karen Keen

If only the Church was more like the Exodus Freedom Conference.
Seriously.  There are few places where corporate worship is so
powerful and sincere.  And if the Church had the same kind of
transparency, humility, and authenticity found here it would
transform every congregation.  I wish all Christians could experience
it. This year's conference was held at Ridgecrest Conference Center
in North Carolina. I was tired by the end of the week, but part of me
didn't want to leave last Sunday. I so enjoyed the fellowship.

I originally didn't plan to go.  But, after volunteering with the
youth track at the Love Won Out conference in April, I felt burdened
about the confusion many young people are experiencing regarding
sexuality (both heterosexual and homosexual).  So I decided to
volunteer with Xscape.  This Exodus youth track is for those under
the age of 25.  Over a hundred young people signed up (90 guys and
more than 20 gals).  Most were in their late teens or early 20s.
Every afternoon from 1:30 to 4:30 we gathered for games, speakers and
group discussion.  In the evening we met again after the General
Session. I had a great group of girls who so impressed me with their
transparency and love for God.  They were awesome! Several of them
had the courage to come to the conference by themselves.  And one of
my girls, whose greatest passion is basketball, was told by her
lesbian coach she would be kicked off the team if she came.  She
decided to come anyway, which was no small sacrifice for her.

Getting kicked off the basketball team wasn't the only repercussion
for participating in the Exodus conference.  Keynote speaker Michelle
McKinney-Hammond lost programming on a radio station.  In her address
she said: A man called me before I made the trip out here.  He tried
to convince me not to come and speak at this conference.  I told him
why I wanted to speak and by the end of our conversation, I thought
we were cool . . . but instead . . . he called WGN and I got taken
off their network.  I have been to four Exodus conferences and this
is the first year I have heard of these types of repercussions.  I am
concerned it may be the beginning of a trend as society becomes more
intolerant of ex-gay ministry.  I can't tell you how grateful I felt
to McKinney-Hammond for not allowing herself to be intimidated—for
choosing to come and offer her encouragement to us even though it
cost her something.


Christine Sneeringer
There were several other great keynote speakers, including Anne
Graham Lotz, Jimmy Evans, Clark Whitten, Alan Chambers, Dale Evrist
and Randy Thomas.  My favorite was probably Andy Comiskey.  I heard
more than one person comment later, "He sounds like a prophet."
There was a spiritual depth to his message that put ex-gay ministry
in perspective in light of the greater spiritual reality happening in
the world today.  You can order his talk as well as all the other
keynote addresses and workshops here. Additionally, Marianne Adams
(formerly of the group Sierra) did a wonderful job leading worship.
And, Christine Sneeringer was fantastic as MC. Who knew she was so
funny? She had us laughing all week.


There were many meaningful moments at this year's conference.  One
highlight was being reminded of how much God's Spirit can work in our
lives.  This was impressed upon me through a stunning visible
transformation of a woman I had seen at last year's conference.  I
had never officially met her, but the moment I saw her at this year's
conference I knew something remarkable had happened.  There was a
maturity, confidence and peace that radiated from her that wasn't
there before.  It was like she was a completely different person.
The Spirit's work was so evident that I sensed all of this without
ever talking to her.  I went up to her and said, "I don't even know
your story or anything about you, but the transformation in you is
amazing."  She said with excitement, "I know!"  We later had
breakfast together and enjoyed a great conversation.  God has,
indeed, radically moved in her life in just one year.  I'm excited to
see what he will continue to do in and through her.

Another highlight of the conference was the last night when all the
Xscape participants gathered around a campfire to eat s'mores, sing
songs, and share what God had done in their hearts over the week.  I
wish you could have heard them.  They were an inspiration to me.  One
young man made a poignant point by quoting from Lord of the Rings:

Frodo: I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had
happened.

Gandalf: So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for
them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time
that is given to us.

Despite what the world may say, those at Exodus have decided to
respond to a struggle they wish had never happened by moving ever
deeper in pursuit of God. As another young man said, this struggle is
a gift because it reminds us of our dependency on God and presses us
into greater intimacy with him. My prayer is that God will strengthen
and encourage everyone at this year's Exodus conference and those who
couldn't make it.



-Karen Keen is a former lesbian who is both a freelance writer and an
occasional speaker.  She has taught classes on various topics
including homosexuality, prayer, and end time prophecy.  She has a
particular interest in biblical studies and is currently applying to
Th.M. programs with the intent of pursuing a Ph.D. Karen has a M.S.
in education (counseling) from Western Oregon University and a MA in
exegetical theology from Western Seminary.

Contact: Karen at PursuingGod@...

Karen's Blog http://pursuegod.wordpress.com/

by Randy

Here are just a few of the many great quotes from our invited keynote
speakers (that made it into my journal) from last week's 2008 Exodus
Freedom Conference. They may not be exact transcripts and surely not
comprehensive.


Anne Graham Lotz: "The Holy Spirit is a Person. A Whole Person … not
an it. You receive the Holy Spirit when you accept Jesus as your Lord
and Savior. You receive the Holy Spirit completely and once and for
all. … You get "more of the Holy Spirit" by giving Him more of you. …
In order for the Holy Spirit to change us from the inside, He must be
inside us."

Clark Whitten: "If you want to change the way you feel, you have to
change the way you think … Grace, not strong will, will set you free
… God doesn't have to trick Himself by seeing you through some mystic
filter of Jesus being superimposed on your life. God sees you for you
and He loves you and wants you to be cleansed by the blood of Christ
… There is a danger of being so sin conscious that you become
unconscious to God … We don't confess sin to be forgiven, that is
already "finished" because when the Lord said "It is finished" … it
is finished. We confess sin to be healed.

"The Joy of God is Trans-circumstantial."

Michelle McKinney Hammond: "A man called me before I made the trip
out here … He tried to convince me to not come and speak at this
conference. I told him why I wanted to speak and by the end of our
conversation, I thought we were cool … but instead … he called WGN
and I got taken off their network. I am not just here … I am here
passionately."

"Don't you just love it when Jesus asks stupid questions? … He asks
us questions, not because He needs the answer… He asks us the
question so that we can locate ourselves."

I missed most of Jimmy Evans' keynote because I was doing several
interviews that morning. I was honored to do a good amount of media
during the whole week. Also, Andy Comiskey's talk was strong. He
asserted that we must hold on to truth as the pressure to abandon it
grows.

By Lillian Kwon

There is a tremendous hunger among young people for the message
Exodus International preaches – that freedom from homosexuality
through the power of Jesus Christ is possible, according to the
ministry's head.

Exodus International, which claims to be the world's largest
Christian referral and information network dealing with homosexual
issues, is holding its annual Freedom Conference in Asheville, N.C.,
beginning Tuesday. For 33 years, Exodus has seen thousands of people
seek answers at its conference as they, or loved ones, struggle with
same-sex feelings.

Over 700 people, including many from outside the United States, are
expected to attend this year's Freedom event. Part of this year's
speaker line-up is evangelist Anne Graham Lotz, daughter of Billy
Graham.

"We are always trying to bring in respected Christian leaders to our
conference," commented Alan Chambers, president of Exodus
International, to The Christian Post. "It's also a chance to
introduce them to an often overlooked ministry group-people who
struggle with unwanted same-sex attraction."

The ministry's annual conference caters to a wide range of groups,
from men and women, youth and parents, to married couples where a
spouse has homosexual attraction. Forty percent of this year's
conference attendees are men and women personally struggling and 14
percent are youths.

And this year's event comes just months after the California high
court ruling that legalized same-sex "marriage," and months before
California voters head to the polls in November to decide whether to
overturn the court decision and protect traditional marriage.

"While the culture wars over the issue of homosexuality are hotter
than ever with the marriage issue, Exodus is growing and more people
are seeking help," Chambers said.

The Exodus International network has grown by 71 percent in five
years, Chambers noted. The ministry has over 120 local ministries in
the country and Canada is also linked with other Exodus world regions
outside of North America, totaling over 150 ministries in 17
countries, according to the Exodus Web site.

But with growth, Exodus continues to meet protesters especially
around this time of year when it holds its Freedom Conference. A
group of local gay rights advocates, who are calling themselves
Equality Asheville, plan to sponsor a series of events titled "You're
Fine Just the Way You Are," according to Asheville's Citizen-Times.

Noel Nickel, who's organizing the competing events, wants to give
people the "whole spectrum."

"I think (Exodus') intentions are harmful, because it's cloaked in
the message of love," Nickel said, as reported by the local
newspaper. "We're trying to make sure that there is a full spectrum
of educational aspects."

Jaye Thomas, who turned away from homosexuality with support from
Exodus, acknowledged that Exodus "is no stranger to opposition."

"But neither was Jesus," he said. "Exodus is not in the business of
converting anyone. We just offer a hand to walk beside people who
want freedom from the bondage of sexual addiction."

Many have found "freedom" from homosexual feelings through Exodus.
But in addition to serving those personally struggling, Exodus has
also helped family members and pastors learn how to love their loved
ones or congregants who are struggling with gay or lesbian
attraction.

"There is a right to choose one's passage in life," Chambers, who
left homosexuality more than 14 years ago, told the Citizen-Times. "I
didn't choose those feelings [of same-sex attraction], but when I was
old enough, I did choose my behavior."

This year's Freedom Conference on July 15-20 is themed "A New Day"
and 41 percent of conference participants are reportedly attending
for the first time.

http://www.christianpost.com/article/20080715/exodus-offers-a-new-day-
for-hundreds-impacted-by-homosexuality.htm/

Pictures from Exodus Conference 2008

A few pictures from Exodus Event by Randy Thomas,

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ge_parker/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rthomasetc/2678380047/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rthomasetc/2357771121/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rthomasetc/2357338855/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rthomasetc/2357338123/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rthomasetc/2679158088/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rthomasetc/2679158320/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rthomasetc/2679158522/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rthomasetc/2678341373/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rthomasetc/2678379267/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rthomasetc/2678378239/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rthomasetc/2679196080/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rthomasetc/2357338123/

http://randythomas.org/

The Washington Post has an article on the age at which sexual
minority youth label themselves as gay. The story centers on a 15-
year-old from Arlington, Virginia, and addresses both the early age
of identity labelling, but also the extent to which school systems
are prepared to address issues associated with such early
identification. The issues included, but are not limited to, peer
harrassment and bullying.

The act of labeling is considered a milestone event or benchmark in
sexual identity development among sexual minorities. It is commonly
understood that sexual minorities used to label themselves at a later
age. One expert reports that labeling occurred on average at age 20
in 1970, but that the average age today is about age 15.

Research conducted at ISSI suggests that the picture is a little more
complex than is often presented. For example, in a study of Christian
sexual minorities (presented at the American Psychological
Association in 2007) conducted at Christian colleges, we reported
that among those who did report a gay identity, there was an an
initial attribution at about age 16 that one was "gay." A more firm
label was not used until an average age of 19 or 20, and this was not
by many of the Christian sexual minorities. In fact, the vast
majority tended not to label themselves. In another study of older
Christian sexual minorities, a real sense of achieving an identity
synthesis did not occur until the mid 20s (for those who identified
as gay) or the mid 30s for those who dis-identified with a gay
identity. These differences are likely due to differences in samples,
with many other studies of sexual minority youth being conducted
either with secular college samples recalling their experiences
growing up or with youth who are active at community centers with
programs for "gay youth."

It may be that religious identity adds another dimension that makes
identity development and synthesis increasingly complex; perhaps
religion also provides for some youth an alternative explanatory
framework - an alternative identity and meaning that others tend to
find in the self-defining identity label as "gay."

That youth are identify as gay at a younger age is likely to be
welcomed news among many members of the gay community, who themselves
often felt the need to wait until later to experience identity
synthesis. At the same time, social conservatives are likely to be
increasingly concerned that such labeling is premature.

The issue of school policies for addressing the concerns of sexual
minority youth are also complicated. There is certainly a need to
keep all young people safe from bullying and threats of violence
against them. ISSI has been a part of several consultations on these
issues and supports identifying ways to make the school setting safe
for all youth.

-The Institute for the Study of Sexual Identity (ISSI) was
established at Regent University in Virginia Beach, Virginia, in the
spring of 2004. The vision of ISSI is to further our understanding of
sexual identity, its development an synthesis, and to be a resource
to students in training and those in the community who are
stakeholders in these discussions. We do this through research,
training, and clinical services/consultations

http://www.sexualidentityinstitute.org/

"This great book - (The Bible) ... is the best gift God has given to man ....
But for it we could not know right from wrong."

-Abraham Lincoln (1809-1865)
  16th President of the United States (1861-1865)

"Unless we form the habit of going to the Bible in bright moments as well as in
trouble, we cannot fully respond to its consolations because we lack equilibrium
between light and darkness."

-Helen Keller (1880-1968)
  Author, Activist and Lecturer

"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible."

-George Washington (1732-1799)
  1st President of the United States (1789-1797)

Hi Everyone,

Things have been very tough for me the past 5 months. Lots of stress and tears
that have played havoc on my body and health.  But, July 25th, I had some sweet
moments that I would like to share with you.

1).  My 13 year old grandson, who lives in Texas called me to give me his new
cell phone number.  He was so kind and sweet. He expressed his love for me and
we talked about general stuff for a few minutes. We have been so worried about
him of late as my daughter and her ex were fighting over him and it had to go to
court. My grandson told me he was doing good and that everything was alright.
That made me so happy.

2). I went to the drive-in last Friday night with my oldest grandson, and also
with my oldest son, his wife and their two little girls, 5 and 8.  My grandson
is visiting his bio dad during the summer here and brought along his two step
sisters and his girlfriends brother. My oldest grandson wanted to celebrate our
birthdays together before he left to fly home to Texas next week. I was not
feeling very well, but I forced myself to go.  I had baked a birthday cake for
my grandson who will be 16 July 31st and we all sang happy birthday and played
dominos. Then my grandson gave me the most beautiful birthday card  with flowers
on it but one flower circled with a verse in Proverbs that said, "There are many
noble women, but you surpass them all."  He gave me a long hug and  kept saying,
'This is true grandma, you do so much for me and my friends and have helped me
through so many tough times. Then my oldest son kept coming back to hug me
(which he rarely does because he is not much of a hugger) and said, "I am soo
sorry for all you are going through with your kids, especially Johnathan right
now." Well, these are the moments that make you hang in there and feel like you
do make a difference.  My family count on me to prepare for these events with
lots of my 'famous' fudge and rolls, as they call them with lots of snacks and
drinks. They trust me and how much is that needed in our world today.

3).  Johnathan sent me a wonderful ecard that said:

For my wonderful mother on her birthday. Hi Mom! Thank you for being such a
wonderful mother to me all these years! I'm so sorry I forgot your birthday this
year. It's been hard for me this year to cope with all the things going on in my
life. I know you know what I'm talking about. Thanks for updating me on my
brother and sister. I want there to be a God and for him to be pleased with me.
I feel bad because I know I have my weaknesses. But I want to be a good person
in spite of all that. Thank you for helping me stay away from the things that
would be harmful to me, and for your unconditional love. Have a happy birthday
(or late one!) Love, Johnathan.

4. My husband is treating me good and I have wonderful friends like all of you. 
So, life is a mixed bag.  I was so sick last weekend with food poisoning and gal
bladder trouble that I thought I was going to die.  There continues to be
problems that are difficult in our family, but we have hope in Christ and see
that He shines a path to solutions and good people come out of nowhere sometimes
to help. We hope the PET scan for Johnathan helps us to know why he has had
problems in his life.

Take care, Bridget



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It is amazing that Rev. Dawn MacDonald and Rev. Mario Bergners peak
with so much grace about the Lambeth Conference, when it is obvious
that they are blatantly being sidelined and treated as second rank
compared to LGBT activists. Another report on the Anglican Mainstream
website suggests that as many as 1/3 of stalls at the conference
exhibition are pro-LGBT.

http://www.virtueon line.org/ portal/modules/ news/article. php?
storyid= 8727