How the Grinch Stole Marriage
by Mary Ann Horton, Lisa and Bill Koontz
(with apologies to Dr. Seuss.)

Every Gay down in Gayville liked Gay Marriage a lot......
But the Grinch, who lived just east of Gayville, did NOT!!

The Grinch hated happy Gays! The whole Marriage season!
Now, please don't ask why. No one quite knows the reason.
It could be his head wasn't screwed on just right.
It could be, perhaps, his Florsheims were too tight.
But I think the most likely reason of all was
His heart and brain were two sizes too small.

"And they're buying their tuxes!" he snarled with a sneer,
"Tomorrow's the first Gay Wedding! It's practically here!"
Then he growled, with his Grinch fingers nervously drumming,
"I MUST find some way to stop Gay Marriage from coming!"

For, tomorrow, he knew... All the Gay girls and boys
would wake bright and early. They'd rush for their vows!
And then! Oh, the Joys! Oh, the Joys!

And THEN they'd do something he liked least of all!
Every Gay down in Gayville the tall and the small,
would stand close together, all happy and blissing.
They'd stand hand-in-hand. And the Gays would start kissing!
"I MUST stop Gay Marriage from coming! ...But HOW?"

Then he got an idea! An awful idea!
THE GRINCH GOT A WONDERFUL, AWFUL IDEA!

"I know what to do!" The Grinch laughed in his throat.
And he went to his closet, grabbed his sheet and his hood.
And he chuckled, and clucked, with a great Grinchy word!
"With this beard and this cross, I look just like our Lord!"

"All I need is a Scripture..." The Grinch looked around.
But, true Scripture is scarce, there was none to be found.
Did that stop the old Grinch...? No! The Grinch simply said,

"With no Scripture on Marriage, I'll fake one instead!"
"It's one man and one woman," the Grinch falsely said.

Then he broke in the courthouse. A rather tight pinch.
But, if Georgie could do it, then so could the Grinch.
The little Gay benefits hung in a row.
"These bennies," he grinned, "are the first things to go!"

Then he slithered and slunk, with a smile most uncanny,
around the whole room, and he took every benny!
Health care for partners! Doctors for kiddies!
Tax rights! Adoptions! Pensions and Wills!
And he stuffed them in bags. Then the Grinch, with a chill,
Stuffed all the bags, one by one, in his bill.

Then he slunk to the kitchen, and stole Wedding Cake.
He cleaned out that icebox and made it look straight.
He took the Gay-bar keys! He took the Gay Flag.
Why, that Grinch even took their last Gay birdseed bag!

"And NOW!" grinned the Grinch, "I will pocket their Rings."
And the Grinch grabbed the Rings, and he started to shove
when he heard a small sound like the coo of a dove.
He turned around fast, and off flew his hood.

Little Lisa-Bi Gay behind him sadly stood.
The Grinch had been caught by small Lisa-Bi.
She stared at the Grinch and said, "My, oh, my, why?"
"Why are you taking our Wedding Rings? WHY?"

But, you know, that old Grinch was so smart and so slick
He thought up a lie, and he thought it up quick!
"Why, my sweet little tot," the fake Shepherd sneered,

"The judges are evil, the other states weird."
"I'll fix the rings there and I'll bring them back here."
It was quarter past dawn... All the Gays, still a-bed,
all the Gays still a-snooze when he packed up and fled.
"Pooh-Pooh to the Gays!" he was grinch-ish-ly humming.
"They're finding out now no Gay Marriage is coming!"
"Their mouths will hang open a minute or two
then the Gays down in Gayville will all cry Boo-Hoo!"

He stared down at Gayville! The Grinch popped his eyes!
Then he shook! What he saw was a shocking surprise!
Every Gay down in Gayville, the tall and the small,
was kissing! Without any bennies at all!
He HADN'T stopped Marriage from coming! IT CAME!
Somehow or other, it came just the same!

And the Grinch, with his grinch-feet ice-cold in the snow,
stood puzzling and puzzling: "How could it be so?"
"It came without lawyers, no papers to sort!"
"It came without licenses, came without courts!"
And he puzzled three hours, till his puzzler was sore.
Then the Grinch thought of something he hadn't before!

"Maybe Marriage," he thought, "doesn't come from the court.
Maybe Marriage...perhaps... comes right from the heart.
Maybe Marriage comes from all the words the Gays say.
Words like Husband, like Wedding, and Spouse who is Gay."
And what happened then...? Well...in Gayville they say
that the Grinch's small brain grew three sizes that day!

And the Gays had their Weddings. They promised for life.
They swore to be faithful, to Wife and her Wife.
The Husbands were happy, to each other they vowed
To be Out and be Honest, be Gay and be Proud.
They told all their neighbors and friends of their Spouse,
They told of their Marriage and sharing their house.
They said "We got Married." They shouted it loud.
Their marital status was "Married and Proud."

And the minute his heart didn't feel quite so tight,
He whizzed with his load through the bright morning light.
And he brought back the rings, cake and Gay birdseed bags!
And he... ...HE HIMSELF... hung the Gay Rainbow Flag!




The Lord looked down, at the proud and the tall, and said "These are
my
children, and I love them all."

The moral of this story is that we don't need a piece of paper and
the
approval of the state to get married. We can just get married.
Instead of having a
committment ceremony, we can have a wedding. Instead of partners, we
can have
husbands and wives. Instead of calling our relationship a Domestic
Partnership
or a Civil Union, we can call it a Marriage. Whether any government
recognizes
it is separate from what we call it. It's a free country and we can
call
ourselves what we like.

In 5 or 10 or 20 years, with plenty of visible same-sex married
couples, the
world won't see us as strange or scary, we're just the married
couple down the
street that happens to be gay. Eventually, the legal recognization
of our
marriages will follow.

If we allow ourselves to voluntarily sit in the back of the bus,
we'll never
make any progress. Rosa Parks had to sit in the front of the bus to
make a
difference. We must as well.


Copyright (c) 2004 by Mary Ann Horton.
Permission granted to copy in whole, with attribution.
This is a parody of "How the Grinch Stole Christmas."

I have never been prouder of my denomination!  And all this
publicity is free!

James
********************************************************************
CBS, NBC refuse to air church's television advertisement

United Church of Christ ad highlighting Jesus' extravagant welcome
called 'too controversial'

For immediate release
Nov. 30, 2004

CLEVELAND -- The CBS and NBC television networks are refusing to run
a 30-second television ad from the United Church of Christ because
its all-inclusive welcome has been deemed "too controversial."

The ad, part of the denomination's new, broad identity campaign set
to begin airing nationwide on Dec. 1, states that -- like Jesus --
the United Church of Christ seeks to welcome all people, regardless
of ability, age, race, economic circumstance or sexual orientation.

According to a written explanation from CBS, the United Church of
Christ is being denied network access because its ad implies
acceptance of gay and lesbian couples -- among other minority
constituencies -- and is, therefore, too "controversial."

"Because this commercial touches on the exclusion of gay couples and
other minority groups by other individuals and organizations," reads
an explanation from CBS, "and the fact the Executive Branch has
recently proposed a Constitutional Amendment to define marriage as a
union between a man and a woman, this spot is unacceptable for
broadcast on the [CBS and UPN] networks."

Similarly, a rejection by NBC declared the spot "too controversial."

"It's ironic that after a political season awash in commercials
based on fear and deception by both parties seen on all the major
networks, an ad with a message of welcome and inclusion would be
deemed too controversial," says the Rev. John H. Thomas, the UCC's
general minister and president. "What's going on here?"

Negotiations between network officials and the church's
representatives broke down today (Nov. 30), on the day before the ad
campaign was set to begin airing nationwide on a combination of
broadcast and cable networks. The ad has been accepted and will air
on a number of networks, including ABC Family, AMC, BET, Discovery,
Fox, Hallmark, History, Nick@Nite, TBS, TNT, Travel and TV Land,
among others.

The debut 30-second commercial features two muscle-bound "bouncers"
standing guard outside a symbolic, picturesque church and selecting
which persons are permitted to attend Sunday services. Written text
interrupts the scene, announcing, "Jesus didn't turn people away.
Neither do we." A narrator then proclaims the United Church of
Christ's commitment to Jesus' extravagant welcome: "No matter who
you are, or where you are on life's journey, you are welcome here."
(The ad can be viewed online at www.stillspeaking.com.)

In focus groups and test market research conducted before the
campaign's national rollout, the UCC found that many people
throughout the country feel alienated by churches. The television ad
is geared toward those persons who, for whatever reason, have not
felt welcomed or comfortable in a church.


"We find it disturbing that the networks in question seem to have no
problem exploiting gay persons through mindless comedies or
titillating dramas, but when it comes to a church's loving welcome
of committed gay couples, that's where they draw the line," says the
Rev. Robert Chase, director of the UCC's communication ministry.

CBS and NBC's refusal to air the ad "recalls the censorship of the
1950s and 1960s, when television station WLBT in Jackson, Miss.,
refused to show people of color on TV," says Ron Buford, coordinator
for the United Church of Christ identity campaign. Buford, of
African-American heritage, says, "In the 1960s, the issue was the
mixing of the races. Today, the issue appears to be sexual
orientation. In both cases, it's about exclusion."

In 1959, the Rev. Everett C. Parker organized United Church of
Christ members to monitor the racist practices of WLBT. Like many
southern television stations at the time, WLBT had imposed a news
blackout on the growing civil rights movement, pulling the plug on
then-attorney Thurgood Marshall. The Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.
implored the UCC to get involved in the media civil rights issues.
Parker, founding director of the Office of Communication of the
United Church of Christ, organized churches and won in federal court
a ruling that the airwaves are public, not private property. That
decision ultimately led to an increase in the number of persons of
color in television studios and newsrooms. The suit clearly
established that television and radio stations, as keepers of the
public airwaves, must broadcast in the public interest.

"The consolidation of TV network ownership into the hands of a few
executives today puts freedom of speech and freedom of religious
expression in jeopardy," says former FCC Commissioner Gloria
Tristani, currently managing director of the UCC's Office of
Communication. "By refusing to air the United Church of Christ's
paid commercial, CBS and NBC are stifling religious expression. They
are denying the communities they serve a suitable access to
differing ideas and expressions."

Adds Andrew Schwartzman, president and CEO of the not-for-profit
Media Access Project in Washington, D.C., "This is an abuse of the
broadcasters' duty to inform their viewers on issues of importance
to the community. After all, these stations don't mind carrying
shocking, attention-getting programming, because they do that every
night."

The United Church of Christ's national offices -- located in
Cleveland -- speak to, but not for, its nearly 6,000 congregations
and 1.3 million members. In the spirit of the denomination's rich
tradition, UCC congregations remain autonomous, but also strongly in
covenant with each other and with the denomination's regional and
national bodies.

Two networks bar church ad welcoming gays
By Michael Paulson, Globe Staff  |  December 2, 2004

Two broadcast networks are refusing to air an ad from the United
Church of Christ because the spot, intended to make the point that
the Protestant denomination is welcoming, briefly shows two men who
are holding hands being turned away from an unnamed church.

CBS and NBC both described the spot as too controversial. In a letter
to the denomination, a CBS official said, ''Because this commercial
touches on the exclusion of gay couples and other minority groups by
other individuals and organizations, and the fact that the Executive
Branch [the Bush Administration] has recently proposed a
constitutional amendment to define marriage as a union between a man
and a woman, this spot is unacceptable for broadcast."

The United Church of Christ has 1.3 million members nationally and
94,000 in Massachusetts. Like other mainline Protestant
denominations, it has been struggling with declining membership, and
the national church is launching an advertising campaign in an effort
to reach out to people who do not go to church.

In an interview yesterday, the president of research for NBC, Alan
Wurtzel, said the spot ''violated a longstanding policy of NBC, which
is that we don't permit commercials to deal with issues of public
controversy." Wurtzel, who is in charge of broadcast standards at the
network, said such issues should be handled by the news department
and not in advertising.

''The problem is not that it depicted gays, but that it suggested
clearly that there are churches that don't permit a variety of
individuals to participate," Wurtzel said. ''If they would make it
just a positive message -- 'we're all-inclusive' -- we'd have no
problem with that spot."

A CBS spokesman, Dana McClintock, said, ''We have a longstanding
policy of not accepting advocacy advertising."

Earlier this year, CBS rejected a Super Bowl ad critical of President
Bush produced by MoveOn.org.

In the letter from the CBS official to the United Church of Christ,
the network said it refuses advertising that ''touches on and/or
takes a position on one side of a current controversial issue of
public importance."

McClintock did not specify what CBS believes the church ad is
advocating, but the network's letter cited the depiction of the
exclusion of gays and minorities and said, ''in our view, this
commercial does proselytize," which violates another network
prohibition against proselytizing for ''any single religion."

That reasoning was rejected by church officials and their supporters.

''All ads are advocacy; what else is an advertisement if not an
opportunity to advocate for your toothpaste or your cause?" said the
Rev. Nancy S. Taylor, president of the Massachusetts conference of
the United Church of Christ, the largest Protestant denomination in
the state. ''The ads are about hospitality and a wide welcome. And
how that is controversial -- I find that extraordinary. We are
stunned."

Taylor said the ad is not intended to criticize other denominations.
She said she showed the ad to members of the Massachusetts Council of
Churches, an umbrella organization of Protestant and Orthodox
churches, where it drew no criticism.

Homosexuality is one of the most hotly debated subjects in the world
of religion. Some denominations -- including the United Church of
Christ, the Unitarian Universalist Association, and Reform Judaism --
support same-sex marriage, which became legal in Massachusetts this
year...NBC and CBS said they had accepted another spot from the
United Church of Christ that did not show people being turned away
from a church.

The ABC broadcast network does not accept any religious advertising,
but the company accepted the spot for airing on ABC Family, a cable
channel.

The FOX broadcasting network has accepted the spot.

''The spot that was submitted meets with our standards," said
spokesman Scott Grogin.

The ad was test-marketed in the spring in several markets, including
Springfield, where it aired on network affiliates, including WWLP-TV
(Channel 22), an NBC affiliate.

''There was not a bit" of controversy, said the Rev. Ian R. Lynch,
pastor of First Congregational Church in Brimfield. ''There's nothing
overt in the ad that says anything about homosexuality, and now
that's what seems to be the big issue. We're wanting to be
hospitable, and it's a sad statement that that's controversial."

The rejected ad is a 30-second spot that depicts two burly male
bouncers standing guard outside a church and choosing who will be
allowed to pass a velvet rope and enter. Among those turned away are
two men holding hands and several nonwhite people.

The ad's text says: ''Jesus didn't turn people away. Neither do we."
It then cuts to a scene of an ethnically diverse crowd of smiling
people, including two women, one of whom has her hand on the other's
shoulder, as a voice-over says: ''The United Church of Christ. No
matter who you are or where you are on life's journey, you're welcome
here."

The ad makes no printed or verbal mention of homosexuality.

''Network television does not like controversy," said Robert J.
Thompson, the director of the Center for the Study of Popular
Television at Syracuse University. ''They don't want to do anything
that could possibly incite boycotts or advertiser pullouts. And I
could see why network TV would be uncomfortable airing an ad with a
benign message, because what happens when a less benign message,
perhaps from a fringe religious group, comes along?"

CBS and NBC notified the United Church of Christ of their concerns
about the spots in February and March. The denomination says it has
been attempting since then to negotiate with the networks, but the
denomination also chose to make the rejections public yesterday, on
the same day it launched its national campaign to shore up its
identity.

The spots will air on multiple cable channels and could air on local
network affiliates. The campaign also has radio and print components
highlighting the denomination's desire to welcome newcomers.

Half of the 424 United Church of Christ congregations in
Massachusetts have signed up to promote the campaign by placing ads
in local publications or placing lawn signs or banners at their
churches. Old South Church, in Copley Square, hopes to place ads in
MBTA stations.

''We're running the ads in the Arlington Advocate and on local
Comcast and on regional RCN," said the Rev. Lisa W. Stedman, interim
minister at Pleasant Street Congregational Church in Arlington,
referring to the same spot rejected by the networks. ''I'm stunned
that the networks think this is too controversial, given the wide
array of things that they do run on television."

The network rejection drew fire from the Religious Coalition for the
Freedom to Marry, a Massachusetts group of clergy and congregations
supporting same-sex marriage, which called the rejection ''an attack
on freedom of religion in this country and [an] outrageous case of
censorship."

''How are gay and lesbian people to secure equal rights if the
television stations refuse to allow them to be depicted partaking in
the most elementary aspects of our society, such as attending worship
services?" asked Rabbi Devon Lerner, coalition
cochairman. ''Ironically, while CBS and NBC consider gay families
entering churches to be too controversial to air, CBS and NBC have no
problem airing misleading stereotypes of gays and lesbians in sitcoms
and airing sensational clips of gays and lesbians during news
features."

Ralph G. Neas, president of the People for the American Way
Foundation, issued a statement declaring, ''It is beyond troubling,
it is downright dangerous that the American ideal of inclusion is
too 'controversial' for a network news broadcast because it conflicts
with the political agenda of the White House."

A spokesman for the Federal Communications Commission said the
networks are within their rights to reject the ad.

''There are no FCC rules on advertising, with the exception of
indecency," said David Fiske, the FCC spokesman. ''The networks have
always had some form of department that deals with advertising and
program standards, and they make those decisions."

But the rejections occurred as the networks are particularly
sensitive to criticism.

''We live in extremely delicate media times right now, and I think
that the networks are under more scrutiny than ever before," said J.
Max Robins, editor-in-chief of Broadcasting & Cable magazine.

Ad available at http://www.stillspeaking.com.

As I go through the NT again for a 30-week class I'm taking, I'm
struck time and again by how often and how badly those in both
Jesus' and Paul's presence missed what they were trying to teach
about the Law.

Paul repeatedly taught that no man is ever justified by observing
the Law [Gal 2:15-16].  In fact, he reminded us that part of the
reason the Law was given was to show us we were utterly incapable of
keeping it [Rom 3:20].

Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law but by fulfilling it he
didn't mean leaving it as it was.  No sooner had he said this that
he said "you have heard it said but I say unto you..."

So what was Jesus' relationship to the Law?  He did not abrogate or
get rid of the Law, for that would have made him a heretic and a
false prophet.  He did three things:

(1) CORRECT: He corrected the popular misunderstanding about the Law
(2) CLARIFY: He clarified its true meaning
(3) COMPLETE: Then he completed it

Significantly, Jesus never applied any law in a wooden or
literalistic way, as many are still quick to do today.  Rather, he
looked at and spoke about the original purpose of it.  The radical
consequences which resulted from Jesus looking at the Sabbath, for
example, in this way are clear in all the gospels.  He blatantly
disregarded the onerous rabbinical interpretations of what Sabbath
observance required on the grounds that the institution was intended
to be a blessing and not a burden [Mk 2:27].  The the application of
those same interpretive principles to the few passages many
Christians still use for their anti-gay theology, by the way, would
similarly lead to more compassionate conclusions regarding
homosexuality.

Jesus provided a very important hermeneutic tool to help his
followers negotiate their way through moral debates about OT law.
He identified one Levitical command as the key to understanding the
rationale behind all the others.  Quoting Leviticus 19:18, He
said: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

This suggests that, when trying to determine why an OT law was given
and what its relevance is to a modern Christian, two vital questions
must be asked:

(1) What HARM to neighbor was this command intended to PREVENT?
(2) What GOOD to neighbor was this command intended to PROMOTE?

And though Lev 19:18 was not all that popular in the days of the OT,
it is THE verse from the Torah (or first five books of the Bible)
that is the most frequently cited in the NT.  It's a summary and a
fulfilling of the Law that was repeatedly referred to by Jesus, Paul
and James.

-Alex

I wanted the group to also know that I've written a novel based on my
background in the Southern Baptist ministry, which was just published
several weeks ago (I was a youth minister for 7+ years and a Pastor
for 11 years).

The book takes place in the mid-1970s and there's some material in
there about these ex-gay groups, which were just getting started
about this time. If you choose to read the book, I would welcome any
comments, insights, responses from any of you, based on your own
experience. You can find out more information at my website:
www.BillPrickett.com.

In addition, I'm working on a new novel about a conservative minister
who has to come to terms with his homosexuality. Again, I welcome
your comments, insights.

Bill Prickett

Howdy All:

I am a new Member here (or should i say new memBEAR?) I went through
a whole decade of the Exodus-member groups including the former Jack
Hickey ministries in Wyandotte Michigan, and also the famous
("infamous"?) L.I.A./Church of The Open DoorExodus in San Rafael,
Marin Coounty, CA... this decade was from 1980-1990....

I'm sure i'll free to share more as i read your posts and settle in,
so to speak...

-Ken in MI

Hi Ken,
Welcome!  We're a pretty diversified group here but the common
thread is that most of us have had some experience with Exodus-based
or similar groups or ministries.  I myself eventually became a
leader of the "ex-gay" ministry I was involved with and even got to
share my testimony as an "ex-gay" on The 700 Club.  I have long
since integrated my rich Christian faith and my sexuality while most
of those who I knew during my "ex-gay days have tragically long
since left the Church altogether.  It has been my experience that
either Christian people who are gay learn to integrate a
theologically-sound, committed Christian faith with their sexuality
or one of the following three scenarios will generally occur:

(1) REPRESSION AND DENIAL:
They continue to repress or suppress their sexuality.  Instead of
learning to lead honest and authentic lives before God, before man
and before themsleves, they succumb to the pressure of conformity
and denial.  In doing so, what they're often really saying is: I'm
now more acceptable to myself and to the people around me.
Unfortunately, they don't usually feel that way in the long run.
Even increasing numbers of Christian counselors now readily admit
that "ex-gay" ministries are trying to force people into a mold that
doesn't really fit and the results often lead to depression,
addiction and sometimes even suicide.  Says Terry Norman, a D Min
and professional Christian counselor: "When people repress their
orientation, in order to make all that work, they often hide under
layers and layers of incredibly destructive behavior."  Norman
concluded by saying: "Ultimately, it kills."  And if it doesn't
physically kill you, it will slowly eat away at your soul.

(2) LEAVE THE CHURCH:
In the wake of discovering that the promise of change is a false
promise many end up throwing out the baby with the bath water.  They
conclude that if the Bible doesn't say exactly what they were told
it says then any and all turning to Jesus isn't worth anything at
all.  And unable to separate the two, in hurt, in anger or in
disappointment, they tragically end up leaving the Church and their
rich faith altogether, trading off the Kingdom of God for a life of
God knows what.

(3) ADOPT "ANYTHING GOES" THEOLOGY;
Or they seek a group to give them comfort and find too often that
only the extremely liberal are willing to take the "outcasts" in.  I
call this adopting an "anything goes" theology.  The formerly
orthodox believer then, although slowly and reluctantly at first,
begins to adopt the beliefs of the group that is willing to accept
him or her.  The old ideas and beliefs are so closely associated
with the group that inflicted the rejection that they avoid them at
all costs.  And the rich gospel they once joyfully embraced becomes
so watered down one couldn't find it with a magnifying glass.

These are the scenarios that have befallen most of the Christian gay
people I've known over the past 20-plus years.  I pray that you will
be one of the survivors.  Be blessed as as you peruse some of the
older posts here.  I hope you'll be encouraged, educated, challenged
and inspired as many of them are quite rich indeed.

Merry Christmas to you and yours!
-Alex


--- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Ken" <kenbear@g...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Howdy All:
>
> I am a new Member here (or should i say new memBEAR?) I went
through
> a whole decade of the Exodus-member groups including the former
Jack
> Hickey ministries in Wyandotte Michigan, and also the famous
> ("infamous"?) L.I.A./Church of The Open DoorExodus in San Rafael,
> Marin Coounty, CA... this decade was from 1980-1990....
>
> I'm sure i'll free to share more as i read your posts and settle
in,
> so to speak...
>
> -Ken in MI

Dear Alex/group:

per Alex's welcome and post, (quoted below)  I DO Praise God that I am
still, by His Mercy (and some cooperation on my part...lol) a Believer
in Jesus Christ...though I, too, have watched some  souls embittered,
not only leave Christianity, but go to cults, and even total, angry
atheism!

My time at Love-In-Action in San Rafael allowed me to see lots of
"slips" between staff and program members, or within the
program-members's group, themselves... both in loss-of-Faith, and
sexual/relational involvement (the religious cure "ISN't" as most here
know)

Though I admit it was interesting to meet Frank and Anita Worthen, and
others  (I always thought John Paulk looked better as the "Candy"
dragqueen persona, than as a man!) lol... they showed their own flawed
humanity... and they had no idea how to help people like myself, who
are bipolar and/or former sex addicts (I say former, now, all these
yrs later.... but unforetunately it was CURRENT during my stay with
them.... though i chose not to involve any of the staff or program
people in my "falls" at that time, when my addiction was alive and
active...) ...--still, they had every right to dismiss me... but it
has taken more than a decade to recover and find myself not as flotsam
or "castoff" junk, but as a true adopted son of God, by Jesus' shed
Blood for me... i am, however, "temporarily" disenfranchised from
"church" ....I believe Jesus leads me to find "friendship
congregation" ...as in the larger meaning of "church" we, the Body of
Christ....

so yes, I am one of the Miracle cases, i guess you'd say, and NOT
options ONE, TWO, or THREE, below.

-Christmas Blessings Alex/ALL HERE!

-Ken in MI

                                         ***   ****    ****


Alex, in an earlier e-missive, himself, states:

  It has been my experience that
> either Christian people who are gay learn to integrate a
> theologically-sound, committed Christian faith with their sexuality
> or one of the following three scenarios will generally occur:
>
> (1) REPRESSION AND DENIAL:
> They continue to repress or suppress their sexuality.  Instead of
> learning to lead honest and authentic lives before God, before man
> and before themsleves, they succumb to the pressure of conformity
> and denial.  In doing so, what they're often really saying is: I'm
> now more acceptable to myself and to the people around me.
> Unfortunately, they don't usually feel that way in the long run.
> Even increasing numbers of Christian counselors now readily admit
> that "ex-gay" ministries are trying to force people into a mold that
> doesn't really fit and the results often lead to depression,
> addiction and sometimes even suicide.  Says Terry Norman, a D Min
> and professional Christian counselor: "When people repress their
> orientation, in order to make all that work, they often hide under
> layers and layers of incredibly destructive behavior."  Norman
> concluded by saying: "Ultimately, it kills."  And if it doesn't
> physically kill you, it will slowly eat away at your soul.
>
> (2) LEAVE THE CHURCH:
> In the wake of discovering that the promise of change is a false
> promise many end up throwing out the baby with the bath water.  They
> conclude that if the Bible doesn't say exactly what they were told
> it says then any and all turning to Jesus isn't worth anything at
> all.  And unable to separate the two, in hurt, in anger or in
> disappointment, they tragically end up leaving the Church and their
> rich faith altogether, trading off the Kingdom of God for a life of
> God knows what.
>
> (3) ADOPT "ANYTHING GOES" THEOLOGY;
> Or they seek a group to give them comfort and find too often that
> only the extremely liberal are willing to take the "outcasts" in.  I
> call this adopting an "anything goes" theology.  The formerly
> orthodox believer then, although slowly and reluctantly at first,
> begins to adopt the beliefs of the group that is willing to accept
> him or her.  The old ideas and beliefs are so closely associated
> with the group that inflicted the rejection that they avoid them at
> all costs.  And the rich gospel they once joyfully embraced becomes
> so watered down one couldn't find it with a magnifying glass.
>
> These are the scenarios that have befallen most of the Christian gay
> people I've known over the past 20-plus years.  I pray that you will
> be one of the survivors.  Be blessed as as you peruse some of the
> older posts here.  I hope you'll be encouraged, educated, challenged
> and inspired as many of them are quite rich indeed.
>
> Merry Christmas to you and yours!
> -Alex

Merry Christmas, Ken (and everyone!),

I'm sorry to hear that you were treated so un-lovingly during your
tenure at Love-In-Action in San Rafael.   Seems to be a particular
irony in light of the ministry's name, huh?

Your experience brings to mind some words spoken by Mother Theresa
some time ago: "I have come to realize more and more that the
greatest disease and the greatest suffering is to be unwanted,
unloved, uncared for, to be shunned by everybody, to be just nobody."

Most significantly however, I'm happy to hear you not only survived
the war with your faith intact but seem to have flourished to become
a steadfast and grounded man who has learned to live an honest and
authentic life before God, before man and before yourself.  I guess
the church still hasn't learned that we must learn to live together
as brothers or perish together as fools.  As for me, I'd much rather
be hated for who I am, then loved for who I am not.

Christmas blessings,
-Alex


--- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, Kenbear <kenbear@g...> wrote:
>
> Dear Alex/group:
>
> per Alex's welcome and post, (quoted below)  I DO Praise God that
I am
> still, by His Mercy (and some cooperation on my part...lol) a
Believer
> in Jesus Christ...though I, too, have watched some  souls
embittered,
> not only leave Christianity, but go to cults, and even total, angry
> atheism!
>
> My time at Love-In-Action in San Rafael allowed me to see lots of
> "slips" between staff and program members, or within the
> program-members's group, themselves... both in loss-of-Faith, and
> sexual/relational involvement (the religious cure "ISN't" as most
here
> know)
>
> Though I admit it was interesting to meet Frank and Anita Worthen,
and
> others  (I always thought John Paulk looked better as the "Candy"
> dragqueen persona, than as a man!) lol... they showed their own
flawed
> humanity... and they had no idea how to help people like myself,
who
> are bipolar and/or former sex addicts (I say former, now, all these
> yrs later.... but unforetunately it was CURRENT during my stay with
> them.... though i chose not to involve any of the staff or program
> people in my "falls" at that time, when my addiction was alive and
> active...) ...--still, they had every right to dismiss me... but it
> has taken more than a decade to recover and find myself not as
flotsam
> or "castoff" junk, but as a true adopted son of God, by Jesus' shed
> Blood for me... i am, however, "temporarily" disenfranchised from
> "church" ....I believe Jesus leads me to find "friendship
> congregation" ...as in the larger meaning of "church" we, the Body
of
> Christ....
>
> so yes, I am one of the Miracle cases, i guess you'd say, and NOT
> options ONE, TWO, or THREE, below.
>
> -Christmas Blessings Alex/ALL HERE!
>
> -Ken in MI
>
>                                         ***   ****    ****
>
>
> Alex, in an earlier e-missive, himself, states:
>
>  It has been my experience that
> > either Christian people who are gay learn to integrate a
> > theologically-sound, committed Christian faith with their
sexuality
> > or one of the following three scenarios will generally occur:
> >
> > (1) REPRESSION AND DENIAL:
> > They continue to repress or suppress their sexuality.  Instead of
> > learning to lead honest and authentic lives before God, before
man
> > and before themsleves, they succumb to the pressure of conformity
> > and denial.  In doing so, what they're often really saying is:
I'm
> > now more acceptable to myself and to the people around me.
> > Unfortunately, they don't usually feel that way in the long run.
> > Even increasing numbers of Christian counselors now readily admit
> > that "ex-gay" ministries are trying to force people into a mold
that
> > doesn't really fit and the results often lead to depression,
> > addiction and sometimes even suicide.  Says Terry Norman, a D Min
> > and professional Christian counselor: "When people repress their
> > orientation, in order to make all that work, they often hide
under
> > layers and layers of incredibly destructive behavior."  Norman
> > concluded by saying: "Ultimately, it kills."  And if it doesn't
> > physically kill you, it will slowly eat away at your soul.
> >
> > (2) LEAVE THE CHURCH:
> > In the wake of discovering that the promise of change is a false
> > promise many end up throwing out the baby with the bath water.
They
> > conclude that if the Bible doesn't say exactly what they were
told
> > it says then any and all turning to Jesus isn't worth anything at
> > all.  And unable to separate the two, in hurt, in anger or in
> > disappointment, they tragically end up leaving the Church and
their
> > rich faith altogether, trading off the Kingdom of God for a life
of
> > God knows what.
> >
> > (3) ADOPT "ANYTHING GOES" THEOLOGY;
> > Or they seek a group to give them comfort and find too often that
> > only the extremely liberal are willing to take the "outcasts"
in.  I
> > call this adopting an "anything goes" theology.  The formerly
> > orthodox believer then, although slowly and reluctantly at first,
> > begins to adopt the beliefs of the group that is willing to
accept
> > him or her.  The old ideas and beliefs are so closely associated
> > with the group that inflicted the rejection that they avoid them
at
> > all costs.  And the rich gospel they once joyfully embraced
becomes
> > so watered down one couldn't find it with a magnifying glass.
> >
> > These are the scenarios that have befallen most of the Christian
gay
> > people I've known over the past 20-plus years.  I pray that you
will
> > be one of the survivors.  Be blessed as as you peruse some of the
> > older posts here.  I hope you'll be encouraged, educated,
challenged
> > and inspired as many of them are quite rich indeed.
> >
> > Merry Christmas to you and yours!
> > -Alex

Hello Ken,

I would love to share experiences about the "ex-gay" stuff and get to
know ya (as much as possible online).  Feel free to email me privately
and/or chatting me up on YM (under stryped_tigger).  I welcome you
here with open arms and hope that you find this to be a positive place
to be.

God bless you, brother!:)

Chris
--- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Ken" <kenbear@g...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Howdy All:
>
> I am a new Member here (or should i say new memBEAR?) I went through
> a whole decade of the Exodus-member groups including the former Jack
> Hickey ministries in Wyandotte Michigan, and also the famous
> ("infamous"?) L.I.A./Church of The Open DoorExodus in San Rafael,
> Marin Coounty, CA... this decade was from 1980-1990....
>
> I'm sure i'll free to share more as i read your posts and settle in,
> so to speak...
>
> -Ken in MI

Chris, Brother! Thank You for the very warm and Brotherly greetings
and "Open Arm" reception....this is of course so different from the
reception that i received from the gay-hating churches, and even the
ex-gay ministries, themselves.... sometimes i rather morosely think
that i just wasn't "purdy" enough for 'em! lol.... it was a strange
coincidence that all the newbies in the year-long-live-in-program at
L.I.A. in SanRafael were just "so pretty/young/etc" and i was a big
fat bald old late 30's something that just didn't offer them their
(management's/leadership's) "cheat appeal" ....i hafta rather rye-ly
and ruefully observe!!!! ....ahem (see how i go off on tangents???!!!)

Somebody SLAP me!

I have added you to my personal chatlist and welcome both public
on-list communiques and private offlist e-fellowship!

hey ya'all here,everybody!: I'm in Michigan: Southeast: Metro Detroit
Suburban.... how about a "rollcall" of locations from  willing
listmembers, if this is permissible?

To all Godspeed, and Happy 2005, as it encroaches upon us all!

In Jesus:
-Ken Lee, SE  Lower MI


> Message: 1
>   Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:15:32 -0000
>   From: stryped_tigger
> Subject: Re: new member hello
>
> Hello Ken,
>
> I would love to share experiences about the "ex-gay" stuff and get to
> know ya (as much as possible online).  Feel free to email me privately
> and/or chatting me up on YM (under stryped_tigger).  I welcome you
> here with open arms and hope that you find this to be a positive place
> to be.
>
> God bless you, brother!:)
>
> Chris
> --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Ken" <kenbear@g...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Howdy All:
> >
> > I am a new Member here (or should i say new memBEAR?) I went through
> > a whole decade of the Exodus-member groups including the former Jack
> > Hickey ministries in Wyandotte Michigan, and also the famous
> > ("infamous"?) L.I.A./Church of The Open DoorExodus in San Rafael,
> > Marin Coounty, CA... this decade was from 1980-1990....
> >
> > I'm sure i'll free to share more as i read your posts and settle in,
> > so to speak...
> >
> > -Ken in MI

Ken,

I'm glad that you liked my greetings and are open for discussion.  I
know how you feel.  I was too bald and fat for them too but then
again, you should see some of the trolls that they "fell"
with....make a fly puke on a gut wagon!:-&

I hope to be able to talk with you soon.  I have a friend in Grand
Rapids that is an ex-gay minister.  Let's just say that we don't
talk much anymore since I came out.  He was "disappointed" but ya
just gotta be who ya are and I'm totally FABULOUS!!!!! Gosh! I'm
such a drag queen at heart ;)

BTW, my partner and I live in Portland, OR ;)

Chris









--- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, Kenbear <kenbear@g...> wrote:
> Chris, Brother! Thank You for the very warm and Brotherly greetings
> and "Open Arm" reception....this is of course so different from the
> reception that i received from the gay-hating churches, and even
the
> ex-gay ministries, themselves.... sometimes i rather morosely think
> that i just wasn't "purdy" enough for 'em! lol.... it was a strange
> coincidence that all the newbies in the year-long-live-in-program
at
> L.I.A. in SanRafael were just "so pretty/young/etc" and i was a big
> fat bald old late 30's something that just didn't offer them their
> (management's/leadership's) "cheat appeal" ....i hafta rather rye-
ly
> and ruefully observe!!!! ....ahem (see how i go off on
tangents???!!!)
>
> Somebody SLAP me!
>
> I have added you to my personal chatlist and welcome both public
> on-list communiques and private offlist e-fellowship!
>
> hey ya'all here,everybody!: I'm in Michigan: Southeast: Metro
Detroit
> Suburban.... how about a "rollcall" of locations from  willing
> listmembers, if this is permissible?
>
> To all Godspeed, and Happy 2005, as it encroaches upon us all!
>
> In Jesus:
> -Ken Lee, SE  Lower MI
>
>
> > Message: 1
> >   Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:15:32 -0000
> >   From: stryped_tigger
> > Subject: Re: new member hello
> >
> > Hello Ken,
> >
> > I would love to share experiences about the "ex-gay" stuff and
get to
> > know ya (as much as possible online).  Feel free to email me
privately
> > and/or chatting me up on YM (under stryped_tigger).  I welcome
you
> > here with open arms and hope that you find this to be a positive
place
> > to be.
> >
> > God bless you, brother!:)
> >
> > Chris
> > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Ken" <kenbear@g...>
wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Howdy All:
> > >
> > > I am a new Member here (or should i say new memBEAR?) I went
through
> > > a whole decade of the Exodus-member groups including the
former Jack
> > > Hickey ministries in Wyandotte Michigan, and also the famous
> > > ("infamous"?) L.I.A./Church of The Open DoorExodus in San
Rafael,
> > > Marin Coounty, CA... this decade was from 1980-1990....
> > >
> > > I'm sure i'll free to share more as i read your posts and
settle in,
> > > so to speak...
> > >
> > > -Ken in MI

Dear Bro. Alex,

Wow, it looks like I've got a big backlog of messages to read since I
became a new member of this Yahoo! group.

I grew up in a very homophobic, sabbatarian denomination, viz.,
Church of God (Seventh Day); and though some of its members are very
legalistic in their sabbath observance, most of them I believe view
sabbath observance as a blessing and not as a burden. I am now a
member of the United Methodist Church, and I am working as best I
know how to help move my local congregation in Orange County,
California toward a more welcoming acceptance of me and my 4.5-year-
long relationship with my partner, James.

I've recently begun a master's degree program in counseling
psychology at Trinity College of Graduate Studies in Anaheim, and I
hope eventually to become a licensed marriage and familty therapist
(LMFT) in California. In the meantime, Jim and I are working on
a "prenuptial" agreement with an eye toward registering under the new
California law, AB205, for Registered Domestic Partnerships. We also
are looking forward to the day when same-sex marriage will be legal
in California; perhaps even this year or next if AB19 is passed by
our state legislature and signed into law by the governor.

Best wishes for a very happy New Year 2005!

Grace & Peace,
{:-)>
Lee McClendon, Sr.

Assistant Southwestern Regional Director
Scouting for All

2nd Tenor
Men Alive--The Orange County Gay Men's Chourus

Interfaith Liason
Orange County PFLAG


--- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225 <no_reply@y...>
wrote:
>
> As I go through the NT again for a 30-week class I'm taking, I'm
> struck time and again by how often and how badly those in both
> Jesus' and Paul's presence missed what they were trying to teach
> about the Law.
>
> Paul repeatedly taught that no man is ever justified by observing
> the Law [Gal 2:15-16].  In fact, he reminded us that part of the
> reason the Law was given was to show us we were utterly incapable
of
> keeping it [Rom 3:20].
>
> Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law but by fulfilling it he
> didn't mean leaving it as it was.  No sooner had he said this that
> he said "you have heard it said but I say unto you..."
>
> So what was Jesus' relationship to the Law?  He did not abrogate or
> get rid of the Law, for that would have made him a heretic and a
> false prophet.  He did three things:
>
> (1) CORRECT: He corrected the popular misunderstanding about the Law
> (2) CLARIFY: He clarified its true meaning
> (3) COMPLETE: Then he completed it
>
> Significantly, Jesus never applied any law in a wooden or
> literalistic way, as many are still quick to do today.  Rather, he
> looked at and spoke about the original purpose of it.  The radical
> consequences which resulted from Jesus looking at the Sabbath, for
> example, in this way are clear in all the gospels.  He blatantly
> disregarded the onerous rabbinical interpretations of what Sabbath
> observance required on the grounds that the institution was
intended
> to be a blessing and not a burden [Mk 2:27].  The the application
of
> those same interpretive principles to the few passages many
> Christians still use for their anti-gay theology, by the way, would
> similarly lead to more compassionate conclusions regarding
> homosexuality.
>
> Jesus provided a very important hermeneutic tool to help his
> followers negotiate their way through moral debates about OT law.
> He identified one Levitical command as the key to understanding the
> rationale behind all the others.  Quoting Leviticus 19:18, He
> said: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
>
> This suggests that, when trying to determine why an OT law was
given
> and what its relevance is to a modern Christian, two vital
questions
> must be asked:
>
> (1) What HARM to neighbor was this command intended to PREVENT?
> (2) What GOOD to neighbor was this command intended to PROMOTE?
>
> And though Lev 19:18 was not all that popular in the days of the
OT,
> it is THE verse from the Torah (or first five books of the Bible)
> that is the most frequently cited in the NT.  It's a summary and a
> fulfilling of the Law that was repeatedly referred to by Jesus,
Paul
> and James.
>
> -Alex

<<Wow, it looks like I've got a big backlog of messages to read
since I became a new member of this Yahoo! group.>>

Yes, we've been here a while and so have amassed quite a collection
of posts.  Some are quite thought-provoking, informative and
poignant, to cite just three adjectives.  So happy reading.  :-)

As most other groups, we tend to ebb and flow around here with some
very active times when posts are flowing all over the place, and
other times when things slow down.  The slow times are a good
opportunity to catch up on older material.

I enjoyed our exchanges under separate cover.

-Alex



--- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Irvin Lee McClendon, Sr."
<leeingg2@y...> wrote:
>
>
> Dear Bro. Alex,
>
> Wow, it looks like I've got a big backlog of messages to read
since I
> became a new member of this Yahoo! group.
>
> I grew up in a very homophobic, sabbatarian denomination, viz.,
> Church of God (Seventh Day); and though some of its members are
very
> legalistic in their sabbath observance, most of them I believe
view
> sabbath observance as a blessing and not as a burden. I am now a
> member of the United Methodist Church, and I am working as best I
> know how to help move my local congregation in Orange County,
> California toward a more welcoming acceptance of me and my 4.5-
year-
> long relationship with my partner, James.
>
> I've recently begun a master's degree program in counseling
> psychology at Trinity College of Graduate Studies in Anaheim, and
I
> hope eventually to become a licensed marriage and familty
therapist
> (LMFT) in California. In the meantime, Jim and I are working on
> a "prenuptial" agreement with an eye toward registering under the
new
> California law, AB205, for Registered Domestic Partnerships. We
also
> are looking forward to the day when same-sex marriage will be
legal
> in California; perhaps even this year or next if AB19 is passed by
> our state legislature and signed into law by the governor.
>
> Best wishes for a very happy New Year 2005!
>
> Grace & Peace,
> {:-)>
> Lee McClendon, Sr.
>
> Assistant Southwestern Regional Director
> Scouting for All
>
> 2nd Tenor
> Men Alive--The Orange County Gay Men's Chourus
>
> Interfaith Liason
> Orange County PFLAG
>
>
> --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225 <no_reply@y...>
> wrote:
> >
> > As I go through the NT again for a 30-week class I'm taking, I'm
> > struck time and again by how often and how badly those in both
> > Jesus' and Paul's presence missed what they were trying to teach
> > about the Law.
> >
> > Paul repeatedly taught that no man is ever justified by
observing
> > the Law [Gal 2:15-16].  In fact, he reminded us that part of the
> > reason the Law was given was to show us we were utterly
incapable
> of
> > keeping it [Rom 3:20].
> >
> > Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law but by fulfilling it
he
> > didn't mean leaving it as it was.  No sooner had he said this
that
> > he said "you have heard it said but I say unto you..."
> >
> > So what was Jesus' relationship to the Law?  He did not abrogate
or
> > get rid of the Law, for that would have made him a heretic and a
> > false prophet.  He did three things:
> >
> > (1) CORRECT: He corrected the popular misunderstanding about the
Law
> > (2) CLARIFY: He clarified its true meaning
> > (3) COMPLETE: Then he completed it
> >
> > Significantly, Jesus never applied any law in a wooden or
> > literalistic way, as many are still quick to do today.  Rather,
he
> > looked at and spoke about the original purpose of it.  The
radical
> > consequences which resulted from Jesus looking at the Sabbath,
for
> > example, in this way are clear in all the gospels.  He blatantly
> > disregarded the onerous rabbinical interpretations of what
Sabbath
> > observance required on the grounds that the institution was
> intended
> > to be a blessing and not a burden [Mk 2:27].  The the
application
> of
> > those same interpretive principles to the few passages many
> > Christians still use for their anti-gay theology, by the way,
would
> > similarly lead to more compassionate conclusions regarding
> > homosexuality.
> >
> > Jesus provided a very important hermeneutic tool to help his
> > followers negotiate their way through moral debates about OT
law.
> > He identified one Levitical command as the key to understanding
the
> > rationale behind all the others.  Quoting Leviticus 19:18, He
> > said: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
> >
> > This suggests that, when trying to determine why an OT law was
> given
> > and what its relevance is to a modern Christian, two vital
> questions
> > must be asked:
> >
> > (1) What HARM to neighbor was this command intended to PREVENT?
> > (2) What GOOD to neighbor was this command intended to PROMOTE?
> >
> > And though Lev 19:18 was not all that popular in the days of the
> OT,
> > it is THE verse from the Torah (or first five books of the
Bible)
> > that is the most frequently cited in the NT.  It's a summary and
a
> > fulfilling of the Law that was repeatedly referred to by Jesus,
> Paul
> > and James.
> >
> > -Alex

Hi everyone,

Looks like the reparative therapy people are trying to advertise and
spread misconceptions about homosexuality in Malaysia.  Four articles
were posted to the Star, a major newspaper in Malaysia today.
Perhaps if some of you want to help to respond too...to warn people
about these ex-gay groups.

Helping homosexual persons resolve long-standing issues
http://thestar.com.my/lifestyle/story.asp?
file=/2005/1/12/features/9448407&sec=features

Circumstances may lead to homosexuality
http://thestar.com.my/lifestyle/story.asp?
file=/2005/1/12/features/9400276&sec=features

Homosexuality more about politics than biology
http://thestar.com.my/lifestyle/story.asp?
file=/2005/1/12/features/9447538&sec=features

Changing sexual orientation through reparative therapy
http://thestar.com.my/lifestyle/story.asp?
file=/2005/1/12/features/9552608&sec=features

Thanks.

Best wishes,

Alan

Hi everyone,

Can I know your experience/information of ex-gay groups in Asia? On
Jan 12, 2005, a major newspaper in Malaysia published a series of
articles on Real Love Ministry, which seems like an ex-gay group.
(Does anyone have info on this group?) The articles promoted the
usual misconceptions about homosexuality as well as highlighted
Spitzer's study as a proof. In the US, NARTH has been filing amici
curiae briefs to fight against gay rights. Not too long along,
Singapore had Melvin Wong give a talk to them. I also heard that
they have given seminars in Hong Kong. I was wondering if we can do
something together as a group of Asian countries. First, to give
info on what you know about these groups and how active they are in
your country. And how much the Christian right in your country is
working with them? Secondly, I wonder if we can approach Dr.
Spitzer as a group to request him to put a stop to misuse of
his "research" (Dr. Jack Drescher, Chair of the LGBT Concerns,
American Psychiatric Association suggested that I contact Dr.
Spitzer directly. I thought it would be more effective if we do it
as a group...also to find out if anyone has approached him before?
to his credit, when his work was used to oppose gay rights in the
Finnish parliament, he wrote a letter to them explaining the whole
situation and why his work should not be used to deny gay rights. I
think what he needs is perhaps to at least have a website which
clarifies the whole issue and point out the limitations of the
study. This is because his paper is used by NARTH and other ex-gay
people to promote their cause and this must be put to a stop). Then
perhaps we might think on how to deal with the more hard core
people. Anybody in IGLA and Amnesty International on this list?

Best wishes,

Alan

I politely approached Dr. Spitzer last year via e-mail, asking him if he
would be willing to comment on misuses of his data.

He declined to respond, and shortly thereafter, Warren Throckmorton
(drthrockmorton.com) started selling an exgay video in which Spitzer was
interviewed, supporting exgay therapy. The marketing for the video
prominently spotlights Spitzer's participation in the video production.

To me, it seems Spitzer is eager for his data to be misused. If he ignores
individual inquiries from reputable professionals about the misuse of his
research, then I agree that it might be more effective to approach him as a
group.

==
Mike Airhart
Ex-Gay Watch

The exgay movement's efforts in Asia appear to be part of a growing effort
by Focus on the Family (and other outfits heavily influenced or controlled
by James Dobson, including Exodus) to "prevent" homosexuality and gay
rights, not by strengthening the movement's flimsy, misdirected, and often
corrupt treatment programs, but by disseminating as much misinformation as
possible to uninformed audiences.

Asia and U.S. public schools appear to be high priorities now.

The front page of the Exodus newsletter for December 2004 boasts of how
Focus on the Family is leading Exodus in a new direction: In 2005, Exodus
executive director Alan Chambers says, Focus/Exodus will "build strong
grassroots coalitions in strategic cities that will force the public school
system" to stop promoting "secular humanism and devaluing moral truth" and
instead to "promote the truth about homosexuality." The goal is "prevention"
of homosexuality -- not treatment.

An inside article by Scott Davis, director of Exodus Youth, details the
agenda:

Create "a unique conference to train pastors, parents, educators, and
students how to practically extend the transforming love of God to young
people struggling with same-sex attracions." The Focus/Exodus conference
will "equip and mobilize local communities to reform the public school
system's handling of homosexuality and hold school leaders accountable."

	 "This one-day conference will train pastors, ministry leaders,
parents, educators, students, former homosexuals, and concerned citizens to
effectively speak to the issues of homosexuality from a public policy,
psychological, educational and redemptive perspective directly benefiting
the public school system. Conference participants will be trained to:

-- Speak the truth publicly about homosexuality in a compassionate,
Christ-like manner.
-- Mobilize Christian student groups to be a force for reconciliation,
dialog, and truth within the public school system.
-- Promote healthy school policy based on family values through involvement
with PTA's [sic], school boards, teacher's [sic] union, and student groups.
-- Educate the local church and combat the heresy of pro-gay theology.
-- Rescue questioning students from pro-gay groups and provide them with
hope and help for change.
-- Encourage true dialog and healthy discussion within PTA's, teacher
organizations, and student bodies.

"It is past time for Christians both within Exodus and the larger church
body to stand up for the lives of questioning students. These precious
students have been lied to through a vast misinformation campaign,
indoctrinated with the myths that homosexuality is inborn, unchangeable, and
as moral and healthy as heterosexuality.

"We hear from many desperate students who long to overcome their unwanted
same-sex attractions, but have been told that their only choice is to accept
a gay identity. They often respond in deep sorrow and depression to these
lies that their sexuality is fated and they have no right or hope of change.

"For students with unwanted same-sex attractions, the truth that they have
the right and hope of sexual self-determination is a true lifeline. They do
not have to adopt a gay identity! Exodus and the church can help them pursue
healing and change. Students have the right to be taught the truth rather
than politically correct lies, especially on a matter as important as sexual
identity and self-determination.

"The Exodus Training Conference will equip the church to bring this hopeful
message into the public school system, combating pro-gay misinformation with
a legitimate alternative for questioning students. Please support this vital
new training through your giving to Exodus and prayers for us."

==
Mike Airhart
Ex-Gay Watch

Real Love Ministry:
http://fire.prohosting.com/rlove

It is headed by singer-composer Edmund Lawrence Smith:
http://geckomusic.net/edmundsmith

RLM's web site says the group is an offshoot of Choices Ministry of
Singapore:
http://www.coos.org.sg/choices/index.htm

They are sponsored by the Strategic Missions Program (STAMP) of Malaysia --
I found nothing online about this program except an address, possibly
outdated:
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:rIZaSVLc5OAJ:www.aya.org.my/html/elibra
ry/contacts.html
Address
No. 1-3, Jalan Mewah 2/2C, Regalia
Business Centre Taman Subang
Mewah, 47500 Subang Jaya
Selangor, Malaysia.
Phone  603-8024-3026
Fax  603-8024-3086
Email  sbks@...

It has shared an executive director, Beran Kumar, with the Malaysian Centre
for Global Ministry:
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:PsT3uemeQTsJ:www.dreamvillage.org/dream
malaysia2002/speakers.html

==
Mike Airhart
Ex-Gay Watch

Do you know any ex-gay person who got married to an opposite sex
partner, maybe had some children, then realised that their sexual
orientation is not changed ...that their marriage is actually a
mixed orientation marriage (with all its accompanying problems), not
unlike gay people who, in denial of their sexuality, get married?
And any studies/reports?

Thanks.

Best wishes,

Alan

Spitzer is well-aware that his study was blasted, up, down, left,
right and sideways.  I'm sure that not even Spitzer believes his
study.  As you may know, I personally responded to an ad Dr. Spitzer
placed in 2001 eliciting testimonies from people who had been
involved in "ex-gay" ministry when his study was being conducted.  I
underwent a preliminary phone interview with one of Dr. Spitzer's
associates in which it was determined my background was exactly what
they were looking for re: participation in the study.   Then during
my telephone interview with Dr. Spitzer, he disqualified me from
participating in the study AFTER learning I did not believe
reparative therapy worked.  Dr. Spitzer explained he was "LOOKING TO
SPEAK WITH PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE THAT GAYS CAN CHANGE."  If others who
answered his ad were disqualified from participating in his study on
the same grounds, one need not be a rocket scientist to figure out
how Dr. Spitzer reached the conclusion he did.

Moreover, both the media and his peers blasted his study charging
Dr. Spitzer misrepresented his research and distorted his findings.
The APA denounced the study at their annual meeting and noted the
research was based on a scientifically insignificant sample of 200.
A multitude of other flaws were also pointed out including: the
study was not submitted for peer review (a fundamental prerequisite
for the credibility of any study) and Spitzer interviewed his
subjects by telephone for 45 minutes (hardly a basis for reliable
data).  They charged the use of a convenient sample and the question
of a 45-minute phone interview without other verification cannot
determine that a person has changed orientation.  It was also clear
he had no proof whatsoever whether participants were honest since
for many "ex-gays" simply labeling oneself as heterosexual
constitutes "change" or progress in the right direction whether
one's sexual orientation has actually changed or not.

-Alex


--- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Ex-Gay Watch" <editor@e...>
wrote:
> I politely approached Dr. Spitzer last year via e-mail, asking him
if he
> would be willing to comment on misuses of his data.
>
> He declined to respond, and shortly thereafter, Warren Throckmorton
> (drthrockmorton.com) started selling an exgay video in which
Spitzer was
> interviewed, supporting exgay therapy. The marketing for the video
> prominently spotlights Spitzer's participation in the video
production.
>
> To me, it seems Spitzer is eager for his data to be misused. If he
ignores
> individual inquiries from reputable professionals about the misuse
of his
> research, then I agree that it might be more effective to approach
him as a
> group.
>
> ==
> Mike Airhart
> Ex-Gay Watch

Because the Religious Right has the upper hand right now in the definition
of what is and is not Christian and orthodox, and because the Religious
Right also has incredible influence in politics and is driving the social
arguments right now, and because many people are reacting out of fear (CBS
and NBC's reaction to the UCC's ad campaign, for example), Focus/Exodus
will have a lot of success in American schools.

In some ways, we as a society and a Church have to go through this.  We
have learn by experience that these claims and theories are false and not
God given or derived.  We have to allow those who think they can prevent
homosexuality to have their day and be proved wrong.  Society at this
point will accept much of what they have to say because society wants to
believe it.  It will not change until after all the prevention theories
fail to keep people from being homosexual.  These ideas will be forced
upon people, for a time, but the reaction against them when we all finally
wake up will be swift and profound.  Sadly, the true cause of Christ will
be terribly harmed.

A lot of people are going to be screwed up, but that is were we come in.
Many of us who have experience with ex-gay ideology and theology know that
their claims are false.  We know that many people who enter ex-gay
ministries and realize the promises are false end up rejecting God, rather
than coming into a true reconciliation of their faith and orientation.  We
have a responsibility to establish means by which we can reach out to all
the fall-outs that will inevitably materialize.  Whether we do this by
creating ministries, going on speaking tours, writing letters to editors,
or protesting during the conferences, we need to be "doing."



--- Ex-Gay Watch <editor@...> wrote:

> "It is past time for Christians both within Exodus and the larger church
> body to stand up for the lives of questioning students. These precious
> students have been lied to through a vast misinformation campaign,
> indoctrinated with the myths that homosexuality is inborn, unchangeable,
> and
> as moral and healthy as heterosexuality.
>
> "We hear from many desperate students who long to overcome their
> unwanted
> same-sex attractions, but have been told that their only choice is to
> accept
> a gay identity. They often respond in deep sorrow and depression to
> these
> lies that their sexuality is fated and they have no right or hope of
> change.
>
> "For students with unwanted same-sex attractions, the truth that they
> have
> the right and hope of sexual self-determination is a true lifeline. They
> do
> not have to adopt a gay identity! Exodus and the church can help them
> pursue
> healing and change. Students have the right to be taught the truth
> rather
> than politically correct lies, especially on a matter as important as
> sexual
> identity and self-determination.

Hi Bob,

Thanks for your response.  I am happy to hear that some ex-ex-gay
people are trying to do something.  I wonder how big is the ex-ex-
gay groups and whether it is possible to network to further increase
effectiveness.

I am not sure if you are aware that the Association of Gay and
Lesbian Psychiatrist is working to make a video on "reparative
therapy" to help to counter the misconceptions and lies.  Not sure
if anyone of you are also involved.

Thanks.

Best wishes,

Alan

--- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, Bob Griffith
<blgriffith@y...> wrote:
> Because the Religious Right has the upper hand right now in the
definition
> of what is and is not Christian and orthodox, and because the
Religious
> Right also has incredible influence in politics and is driving the
social
> arguments right now, and because many people are reacting out of
fear (CBS
> and NBC's reaction to the UCC's ad campaign, for example),
Focus/Exodus
> will have a lot of success in American schools.
>
> In some ways, we as a society and a Church have to go through
this.  We
> have learn by experience that these claims and theories are false
and not
> God given or derived.  We have to allow those who think they can
prevent
> homosexuality to have their day and be proved wrong.  Society at
this
> point will accept much of what they have to say because society
wants to
> believe it.  It will not change until after all the prevention
theories
> fail to keep people from being homosexual.  These ideas will be
forced
> upon people, for a time, but the reaction against them when we all
finally
> wake up will be swift and profound.  Sadly, the true cause of
Christ will
> be terribly harmed.
>
> A lot of people are going to be screwed up, but that is were we
come in.
> Many of us who have experience with ex-gay ideology and theology
know that
> their claims are false.  We know that many people who enter ex-gay
> ministries and realize the promises are false end up rejecting
God, rather
> than coming into a true reconciliation of their faith and
orientation.  We
> have a responsibility to establish means by which we can reach out
to all
> the fall-outs that will inevitably materialize.  Whether we do
this by
> creating ministries, going on speaking tours, writing letters to
editors,
> or protesting during the conferences, we need to be "doing."
>
>
>
> --- Ex-Gay Watch <editor@e...> wrote:
>
> > "It is past time for Christians both within Exodus and the
larger church
> > body to stand up for the lives of questioning students. These
precious
> > students have been lied to through a vast misinformation
campaign,
> > indoctrinated with the myths that homosexuality is inborn,
unchangeable,
> > and
> > as moral and healthy as heterosexuality.
> >
> > "We hear from many desperate students who long to overcome their
> > unwanted
> > same-sex attractions, but have been told that their only choice
is to
> > accept
> > a gay identity. They often respond in deep sorrow and depression
to
> > these
> > lies that their sexuality is fated and they have no right or
hope of
> > change.
> >
> > "For students with unwanted same-sex attractions, the truth that
they
> > have
> > the right and hope of sexual self-determination is a true
lifeline. They
> > do
> > not have to adopt a gay identity! Exodus and the church can help
them
> > pursue
> > healing and change. Students have the right to be taught the
truth
> > rather
> > than politically correct lies, especially on a matter as
important as
> > sexual
> > identity and self-determination.

From: Bob Griffith blgriffith@...

<< In some ways, we as a society and a Church have to go through this.
  We have learn by experience that these claims and theories are false
and not God given or derived.  >>

Unfortunately, in my opinion, society learned these lessons before --
and it has intentionally forgotten them.

And society and church will forget the lessons again, and again,
generation after generation, because it is easier and more comforting
for each generation to forget the lessons of history and science, and
to buy instead into religious fervor and prejudice.

So I guess I'm not a believer in catharsis or closure, or that society
and church really need to go through anything -- the cycle of mass
ignorance and regression, followed by a few tiny gestures of
repentance and progress, followed by mass ignorance and regression,
needs to be stopped.

Society will never grow or evolve if each new generation is forced to
relive the mistakes of the past.

This problem has applications beyond exgays and theocracy, of course
-- we never learned the lessons of Vietnam, or the 1980s wars of
terror and torture in Central America, or the ancient abuses of
Christianity against Judaism and Islam.

Now we are reliving these horrors, in even worse ways, in Iraq -- and
in the child-trafficking that Christian fundamentalists attempted this
week in the Indonesia tsunami zone.

-- Mike

Do you have more info about their work in Asia"?
BTW how do I see to the website for the December newsletter which
you quoted?

Thanks.

Best wishes,

Alan

--- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Ex-Gay Watch" <editor@e...>
wrote:
> The exgay movement's efforts in Asia appear to be part of a
growing effort
> by Focus on the Family (and other outfits heavily influenced or
controlled
> by James Dobson, including Exodus) to "prevent" homosexuality and
gay
> rights, not by strengthening the movement's flimsy, misdirected,
and often
> corrupt treatment programs, but by disseminating as much
misinformation as
> possible to uninformed audiences.
>
> Asia and U.S. public schools appear to be high priorities now.
>
> The front page of the Exodus newsletter for December 2004 boasts
of how
> Focus on the Family is leading Exodus in a new direction: In 2005,
Exodus
> executive director Alan Chambers says, Focus/Exodus will "build
strong
> grassroots coalitions in strategic cities that will force the
public school
> system" to stop promoting "secular humanism and devaluing moral
truth" and
> instead to "promote the truth about homosexuality." The goal
is "prevention"
> of homosexuality -- not treatment.
>
> An inside article by Scott Davis, director of Exodus Youth,
details the
> agenda:
>
> Create "a unique conference to train pastors, parents, educators,
and
> students how to practically extend the transforming love of God to
young
> people struggling with same-sex attracions." The Focus/Exodus
conference
> will "equip and mobilize local communities to reform the public
school
> system's handling of homosexuality and hold school leaders
accountable."
>
>  "This one-day conference will train pastors, ministry
leaders,
> parents, educators, students, former homosexuals, and concerned
citizens to
> effectively speak to the issues of homosexuality from a public
policy,
> psychological, educational and redemptive perspective directly
benefiting
> the public school system. Conference participants will be trained
to:
>
> -- Speak the truth publicly about homosexuality in a compassionate,
> Christ-like manner.
> -- Mobilize Christian student groups to be a force for
reconciliation,
> dialog, and truth within the public school system.
> -- Promote healthy school policy based on family values through
involvement
> with PTA's [sic], school boards, teacher's [sic] union, and
student groups.
> -- Educate the local church and combat the heresy of pro-gay
theology.
> -- Rescue questioning students from pro-gay groups and provide
them with
> hope and help for change.
> -- Encourage true dialog and healthy discussion within PTA's,
teacher
> organizations, and student bodies.
>
> "It is past time for Christians both within Exodus and the larger
church
> body to stand up for the lives of questioning students. These
precious
> students have been lied to through a vast misinformation campaign,
> indoctrinated with the myths that homosexuality is inborn,
unchangeable, and
> as moral and healthy as heterosexuality.
>
> "We hear from many desperate students who long to overcome their
unwanted
> same-sex attractions, but have been told that their only choice is
to accept
> a gay identity. They often respond in deep sorrow and depression
to these
> lies that their sexuality is fated and they have no right or hope
of change.
>
> "For students with unwanted same-sex attractions, the truth that
they have
> the right and hope of sexual self-determination is a true
lifeline. They do
> not have to adopt a gay identity! Exodus and the church can help
them pursue
> healing and change. Students have the right to be taught the truth
rather
> than politically correct lies, especially on a matter as important
as sexual
> identity and self-determination.
>
> "The Exodus Training Conference will equip the church to bring
this hopeful
> message into the public school system, combating pro-gay
misinformation with
> a legitimate alternative for questioning students. Please support
this vital
> new training through your giving to Exodus and prayers for us."
>
> ==
> Mike Airhart
> Ex-Gay Watch

Alan,

Exodus stopped posting its newsletters online after the September
2003 issue. Their content tends to be more political than the
content of the web site.

I don't know more about the Asia groups, apart from the links that I
posted here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exexgayministry/message/3326

I'll see if I can scan some Exodus newsletters into PDF files and
post them to the yahoogroup.

-- Mike

P.S.

Back issues of the Exodus newsletter, up to September 2003, are
located here:
http://exodus.to/exodus-newsletters.shtml

Sincerely,
Mike

Just wondering what role Michael Bussee and Gary Cooper played in
Exodus International.  In "One Nation under God" DVD, commentary in
Amazon.com, Warren Throckmorton claims that while the film introduces
Gary Cooper and Michael Bussee as the co-founders of Exodus. This is
not true. Cooper was a volunteer and never on the board of Exodus.
Bussee was among those who were involved in the initial conference
and on the first board but he was not the only member of that board.
Three of the five ex-gay board members are still ex-gay. Wayne
Besen's book seems to say that they were the co-founders.

Best wishes,

Alan

Are there any other brothers (besides me and norm) from Portland, OR
(or the vicinity) that would like to get together and fellowship
sometime?  Please feel free to drop me an email or chat me up on YM if
you are interested.  I would to meet some people from here and
fellowship if that is at all possible.  Maybe we will click..who knows?

God Bless,

Chris

I'm also in Portland, OR.

Kurt here.  demolishedman@...

--- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, stryped_tigger <no_reply@y...>
wrote:
>
> Are there any other brothers (besides me and norm) from Portland, OR
> (or the vicinity) that would like to get together and fellowship
> sometime?  Please feel free to drop me an email or chat me up on YM if
> you are interested.  I would to meet some people from here and
> fellowship if that is at all possible.  Maybe we will click..who knows?
>
> God Bless,
>
> Chris