If you think CT's recent profile on Bob Davies, subtitled "The
retiring head of Exodus says gay transformation ministries are more
respected and effective than ever!" was worthy of discussion -- just
wait until you feast your eyes on the current issue's most
intriguing article: "No Easy Victory," by an anonymous Christian
homosexual who acknowledges "the fact that I'm still homosexual."
He says he's "tried to change, tried to become heterosexual, tried
just about everything to do so!  Counseling, therapy, prayer,
healing -– you name it.  But for all my trying, all I've managed to
do is control the behavioral manifestations of my sexual
orientation."

I've got lots to say about this one but I'll reserve spouting out
any oratory until a few others chance to read it.  I will say,
however, I'm astounded the piece actually got printed; it's the
first time ever that a major evangelical magazine has published such
a testimony!

...are you around?  Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think you've posted
for about a month -- or since the "club" was converted to
a "group."  Can you please check in briefly just so we can know
you're okay.  Thanks.

I'm here!  Sorry, I've been neglectful in my moderator duties.  I
thought the club went quiet when it moved to groups, but I discovered
that My Yahoo! page just stopped updating, so I've missed the recent
posts.

I've started to transition from Y! Clubs to Y! Groups by fixing up the
titles, bookmark links, etc.  If you or anyone has any good links or
other suggestions, please feel free to add.  Among the new features
(such as more ads), it appears we can also also post documents to the
Files section and a develope databases.  .

Also, my roommate and I are having Qwest/MSN DSL problems.  So I may
not be able to be on regularly until we can get a reliable connection.

Thanks for asking,

Norm!

--- In exexgayministry@y..., nyguy_1225 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
> ...are you around?  Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think you've posted
> for about a month -- or since the "club" was converted to
> a "group."  Can you please check in briefly just so we can know
> you're okay.  Thanks.

--- In exexgayministry@y..., nojam75 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
> I'm here!  Sorry, I've been neglectful in my moderator duties.  I
> thought the club went quiet when it moved to groups, but I
discovered
> that My Yahoo! page just stopped updating, so I've missed the recent
> posts.
>
> I've started to transition from Y! Clubs to Y! Groups by fixing up
the
> titles, bookmark links, etc.  If you or anyone has any good links or
> other suggestions, please feel free to add.  Among the new features
> (such as more ads), it appears we can also also post documents to
the
> Files section and a develope databases.  .


Don in Dallas is here too...still looking to find that illusive "ex"
gay person.  I know there has to be one somewhere.  Paul and Jan and
the TBN preachers mention them occasionally.  Maybe they have one
hidden somewhere.

I don't really like the change from "clubs" to "groups."  The "group"
interface is slower and clunkier!  The "clubs" interface was much
quicker on a dial-up line.

Nor do I like the idea that GM stopped producing those big, rear-
wheel drive autos.  I just LOVE my big, heavy, smooth-riding Buick
Roadmaster Estate Wagon!

But...Yahoo and General Motors both forgot to ask for my opinion!




======

Interesting term "ex-gay;" wouldn't you say?  If there is, as you
say, the illusive "ex-gay" person out there, I wonder what he or she
would look like.  And if there are "ex-gay" people out there, is it
possible that there might also be "ex-straight" or "ex-hetero"
people out there as well?  And I wonder what they would look like?
And I wonder how one would become "ex-straight?"  Through prayer
maybe?  Or perhaps through reorientation therapy?  Or maybe by
wishing and hoping until one finally convinces themself that they
have really become "ex-straight?"  Or maybe one becomes "ex-
straight" by simply entering into a long-term relationship with
someone of the same sex?

Or maybe there is no such thing as an "ex-straight" person because
there's no such pressure on people who are straight to become gay?
Perhaps it's because people who are straight don't feel a perceived
need to become gay so they can feel more acceptable to themselves?
Or more acceptable to the people around them?  Or more acceptable to
God?  Or to feel more adaquate or validated?  Mmmmm, well maybe
there's the key right there.

I think Dr. Roy Clements laid it out quite clearly when he said:
orientation must not be confused with behavior. Heterosexual
individuals may in certain circumstances engage in genital
homosexual acts e.g. in a single-sex social environment like a
prison, the navy, or a boarding school. Similarly homosexual
individuals, under certain kinds of pressure, may marry and have
children.

Perhaps the real key is in choosing to live a truthful, honest and
authentic life, with integrity, before both God and man.  Maybe
that's what truly earns respect from those around you -- and maybe
that's what God truly honors and esteems.


> Don in Dallas is here too...still looking to find that
illusive "ex"
> gay person.  I know there has to be one somewhere.  Paul and Jan
and
> the TBN preachers mention them occasionally.  Maybe they have one
> hidden somewhere.
>
> I don't really like the change from "clubs" to "groups."
The "group"
> interface is slower and clunkier!  The "clubs" interface was much
> quicker on a dial-up line.
>
> Nor do I like the idea that GM stopped producing those big, rear-
> wheel drive autos.  I just LOVE my big, heavy, smooth-riding Buick
> Roadmaster Estate Wagon!
>
> But...Yahoo and General Motors both forgot to ask for my opinion!
>
>
>
>
> ======

New guy here... I've personally never attempted to go the ex-gay route, but
was married for a decade before I came out (mostly hoping and wishing that
my orientation issues would just go away).

I have talked to folks online who used to identify as gay, but no longer,
who avoided the word "ex-gay".  It's pretty hard to define oneself on the
basis of what one is not, they seemed to be saying.  About the same for me
if I called myself "ex-straight".

I think there's a broad range of people and experiences, from those who have
the same-sex attractions but do not act on them, to people who don't feel
terribly attracted to the same sex yet enjoy playing sexually with the same
sex from time to time and infinite variations in between.  At a certain
point all of the labels become silly.

The guy who leads the ex-gay group in my area appears to be grounded,
peaceful and happy, and I'm inclined to trust his self-description.  Gay for
almost 20 years, in a relationship for 10, he was known for his excesses in
the gay community (partying, drag, promiscuity).  In his ex-gay phase of
life in the past 15 years or so, he's been married, raising a family,
working steadily, active at church and devoted to his ministry.  That
appears to be much healthier for him than his past life.  Most of the ex-gay
materials I've read say that temptation is still an issue for most ex-gays
from time to time, so my guess is that he's made peace with whatever
attractions he still feels for guys.

(Of course, in the only conversation I've had with him, after he had known
my then-wife for a few months, he was angry and agressive toward me,
demeaning me because I was making the "wrong" choices in coming to terms
with myself.)

I liked what you said here:

> Perhaps the real key is in choosing to live a truthful,
> honest and authentic life, with integrity, before both
> God and man.  Maybe that's what truly earns respect from
> those around you -- and maybe that's what God truly honors
> and esteems.

I think it's possible that God calls some folks who have same-sex
attractions to live as straight and married, and he honors and esteems those
who live with integrity that way.

I also know that God has called me to live exactly as I am (accepting and
integrating my attractions as a gay man) and supports me living with
integrity this way.

Maybe God is big enough to have called people to different paths even
thought that confuses us sometimes.  Radical thought, eh?

--Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nyguy_1225 [mailto:no_reply@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 11:46 AM
To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ex ex gay ministry] "Ex-gay?"


Interesting term "ex-gay;" wouldn't you say?  If there is, as you
say, the illusive "ex-gay" person out there, I wonder what he or she
would look like.  And if there are "ex-gay" people out there, is it
possible that there might also be "ex-straight" or "ex-hetero"
people out there as well?  And I wonder what they would look like?
And I wonder how one would become "ex-straight?"  Through prayer
maybe?  Or perhaps through reorientation therapy?  Or maybe by
wishing and hoping until one finally convinces themself that they
have really become "ex-straight?"  Or maybe one becomes "ex-
straight" by simply entering into a long-term relationship with
someone of the same sex?

Or maybe there is no such thing as an "ex-straight" person because
there's no such pressure on people who are straight to become gay?
Perhaps it's because people who are straight don't feel a perceived
need to become gay so they can feel more acceptable to themselves?
Or more acceptable to the people around them?  Or more acceptable to
God?  Or to feel more adaquate or validated?  Mmmmm, well maybe
there's the key right there.

I think Dr. Roy Clements laid it out quite clearly when he said:
orientation must not be confused with behavior. Heterosexual
individuals may in certain circumstances engage in genital
homosexual acts e.g. in a single-sex social environment like a
prison, the navy, or a boarding school. Similarly homosexual
individuals, under certain kinds of pressure, may marry and have
children.

Perhaps the real key is in choosing to live a truthful, honest and
authentic life, with integrity, before both God and man.  Maybe
that's what truly earns respect from those around you -- and maybe
that's what God truly honors and esteems.


> Don in Dallas is here too...still looking to find that
illusive "ex"
> gay person.  I know there has to be one somewhere.  Paul and Jan
and
> the TBN preachers mention them occasionally.  Maybe they have one
> hidden somewhere.
>
> I don't really like the change from "clubs" to "groups."
The "group"
> interface is slower and clunkier!  The "clubs" interface was much
> quicker on a dial-up line.
>
> Nor do I like the idea that GM stopped producing those big, rear-
> wheel drive autos.  I just LOVE my big, heavy, smooth-riding Buick
> Roadmaster Estate Wagon!
>
> But...Yahoo and General Motors both forgot to ask for my opinion!
>
>
>
>
> ======


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT




To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
exexgayministry-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

<<I think there's a broad range of people and experiences, from
those who have the same-sex attractions but do not act on them, to
people who don't feel terribly attracted to the same sex yet enjoy
playing sexually with the same sex from time to time and infinite
variations in between. At a certain point all of the labels become
silly.>>

This all may be true but consequences become quite severe when
people who are not heterosexual -- and certainly not by their own
choosing -- are made to feel they must "change" their unchangeable
orientation in order to be acceptable or because of other's "fervent
belief that God intends for us to live in heterosexual and
monogamous fidelity," such as the anonymous man who's article is
published in the current issue of Christianity Today so fervently
asserted.  Sadly, his acknowledged and understandable anger and
frustration bears witness to the lack of peace this road has brought
him.  Being in a mismatched marriage is a hardship for all
involved.  It would appear our anonymous brother has yet to learn
that real marriage is far more intimate than anatomical correctness.

I'm with you on this:

> ...consequences become quite severe when people
> who are not heterosexual -- and certainly not by
> their own choosing -- are made to feel they must
> "change" their unchangeable orientation...

It's interesting to me to hear different conservative perspectives on
orientation issues.  The folks with little direct experience (personally or
through gay friends) are most likely to believe the lies about gay people
being able to change easily to completely straight.  The ones who are closer
to real-live gay or ex-gay folks might believe that attractions can be
changed but at the expense of years of painful therapy.  The ex-gay folks
themselves, like Davies in the Christianity Today interview, are most likely
to admit that ex-gays -- no matter how long they have been married and/or
"healed" -- still have to be vigilant about temptation.

The rational conclusion -- from the lives of ex-gays themselves -- is that
most folks with predominant same-sex attractions are going to be dealing
with same-sex attractions in some form for a lifetime.  So, I agree with you
that it's not just unrealistic, it's grossly unfair to suggest to anyone
that they are going to reverse their attractions.

That's consistent with an honest analysis of the Spitzer study.
Conservatives paint it as proof that anybody can change (and thus everybody
should).  The facts, though, were that when 200 hand-picked people with a
vested interest in proving that they have changed are interviewed by phone
for less than an hour, about half will be able to make an effective verbal
case that they've changed their behavior.  Spitzer's high-performing ex-gays
didn't profess to have left their same-sex attractions behind.  They only
had to self-report that they were having heterosexual sex at least monthly
without fixating on someone of the same sex during the act. (Of course, the
focus of the study was narrow -- evaluating whether it is possible for a
highly-motivated person to change their behavior -- and author has yet to
fully publish his methods or offer the study up for review by his peers.)

It really makes me angry to see subtitles on the news reports about Spitzer
like "New study reverses psychiatrist's earlier work".  No reasonable
reading of the study or Spitzer's comments support that claim.

I think there are some rational, reasonable expectations that ex-gay
ministries can offer to gay folks with unwanted same-sex attractions.  (I'll
talk more about the specifics later.)  The problem is that the reasonable
expectations are limited, behavior-focused and unworkable for many.  There
is a real risk among the ministries that the pain of the process will be
understated and the potential for reversing attractions will be overstated.

--Steve


-----Original Message-----
From: nyguy_1225 [mailto:no_reply@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 9:37 PM
To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ex ex gay ministry] Re: "Ex-gay?"


<<I think there's a broad range of people and experiences, from
those who have the same-sex attractions but do not act on them, to
people who don't feel terribly attracted to the same sex yet enjoy
playing sexually with the same sex from time to time and infinite
variations in between. At a certain point all of the labels become
silly.>>

This all may be true but consequences become quite severe when
people who are not heterosexual -- and certainly not by their own
choosing -- are made to feel they must "change" their unchangeable
orientation in order to be acceptable or because of other's "fervent
belief that God intends for us to live in heterosexual and
monogamous fidelity," such as the anonymous man who's article is
published in the current issue of Christianity Today so fervently
asserted.  Sadly, his acknowledged and understandable anger and
frustration bears witness to the lack of peace this road has brought
him.  Being in a mismatched marriage is a hardship for all
involved.  It would appear our anonymous brother has yet to learn
that real marriage is far more intimate than anatomical correctness.

<<...Spitzer's high-performing ex-gays didn't profess to have left
their same-sex attractions behind. They only had to self-report that
they were having heterosexual sex at least monthly without fixating
on someone of the same sex during the act...It really makes me angry
to see subtitles on the news reports about Spitzer like "New study
reverses psychiatrist's earlier work". No reasonable reading of the
study or Spitzer's comments support that claim.>>

The Spitzer study is even more bogus than most are aware.  Aside
from both the media and his peers blasting the study charging he
misrepresented his research and distorted his findings, I personally
responded to an ad Dr. Spitzer placed eliciting testimonies from
people who had been involved in "ex-gay" ministry when this study
was conducted.  I went through a preliminary telephone interview
with one of Dr. Spitzer's associates where it was decided my
background was exactly what they were looking for regarding
participation in the study.  During my telephone interview with Dr.
Spitzer, however, he disqualified me from participating in his study
after learning I did not believe reparative therapy worked.  Dr.
Spitzer explained he was "LOOKING TO SPEAK WITH PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE
THAT GAYS CAN CHANGE."  If others who answered his ad were
disqualified from participating on the same grounds, one need not be
a rocket scientist to figure out how Dr. Spitzer reached the
conclusion he did.

<<The ex-gay folks themselves, like Davies in the Christianity Today
interview, are most likely to admit that ex-gays -- no matter how
long they have been married and/or "healed" -- still have to be
vigilant about temptation.>>

Yes, but that is a recent phenomenon and came only on the heals of
the John Paulk fiasco.  Much to their chagrin, they were forced
to "fess up" and acknowledge failure.  Of course, they never defined
it as such.  However, in a press release issued in the aftermath of
Paulk's having been caught "with his pants down" (so to speak),
Exodus issued a press release in which Davies announced: "I believe
that, as an organization, we need to re-examine other issues
[including] our use of terms such as 'healing' and 'change'."
Unfortunately, despite Davies' proclamation, he and others continue
to preach "change" and "healing."  It so reminds me of the prophet
Jeremiah's proclamation about what God had to say about the false
prophets who were prophesying in Israel: "They dress the wound of my
people as though it were not serious.  'Peace, peace,' they say,
when there is no peace" (Jeremiah 6:14).

But I do think others are coming to realize that the whole "ex-gay"
thing is in reality a myth.  This was clearly stated in an article
that Norm, the group's moderator, posted some time ago from the
Sunday Chicago Tribune.  It said, in part: "As a result of the
[multitude of] defections, the strategy of Exodus and other groups
appears to have changed dramatically.  Rather than emphasize
heterosexuality as a goal, most ex-gay ministries simply push a
cessation of homosexual activity."

--- In exexgayministry@y..., "Steve Boese" <steve@o...> wrote:
>>>... I think there are some rational, reasonable expectations that
ex-gay ministries can offer to gay folks with unwanted same-sex
attractions.  (I'll talk more about the specifics later.)  The problem
is that the reasonable expectations are limited, behavior-focused and
unworkable for many.  There is a real risk among the ministries that
the pain of the process will be understated and the potential for
reversing attractions will be overstated. ...

I agree that ex-gay ministries should be more rational and reasonable
in identifying ex-gay goals.  However, most of these programs are
faith-based ministries.  Being faith-based typically means that their
reasoning is not necessarily limited to rationality or reasonable
conclusions.  In fact, faith encourages people to hope and anticipate
the unexpected and unreasonable.  I think many Christians want to hear
the dramatic gay-to-straight conversion testimonies.  These are a lot
more satisfying and God-affirming than
gay-to-life-long-celibacy-and-struggle testimonies.  In comparison,
it's more dramatic to see a man get out of a wheelchair at a Benny
Hinn crusade than it is to hear how a disabled person has coped and
succeeded with their disability.  So I seriously doubt ex-gay
ministiries, in their present form, can present a rational approach
that will attract Believers.

- Norm!

Great point, Norm.

I make a lousy fundamentalist.  I dabbled in it for a couple of years in
college, but it didn't stick with me.  The flavors of fundamentalist
Christianity I ran into relied on magical thinking and a God who was defined
by intricate formulas.  It didn't make sense to me that God could be
confined to small boxes and simple answers.

Since my fundamentalist interlude, my connection to my faith has deepened.
I relate to God who is big enough to be infinitely more wise than me, yet
wise and compassionate enough to share His peace and wisdom with me.  I
respect my fundamentalist brothers and sisters on their journeys, but for me
that kind of faith was like shadow-boxing with God when He was inviting me
into a warm embrace and heartfelt conversation.

I think the faith angle of the conversation needs to be engaged fully.
Ex-gay ministries may not get rational quickly, but they can be challenged
to set more realistic expectations and to admit they don't have a monopoly
on faith.

But, of course I'm preaching to the choir here.

In Peace,

--Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nojam75 [mailto:no_reply@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 2:13 AM
To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ex ex gay ministry] Re: "Ex-gay?"


--- In exexgayministry@y..., "Steve Boese" <steve@o...> wrote:
>>>... I think there are some rational, reasonable expectations that
ex-gay ministries can offer to gay folks with unwanted same-sex
attractions.  (I'll talk more about the specifics later.)  The problem
is that the reasonable expectations are limited, behavior-focused and
unworkable for many.  There is a real risk among the ministries that
the pain of the process will be understated and the potential for
reversing attractions will be overstated. ...

I agree that ex-gay ministries should be more rational and reasonable
in identifying ex-gay goals.  However, most of these programs are
faith-based ministries.  Being faith-based typically means that their
reasoning is not necessarily limited to rationality or reasonable
conclusions.  In fact, faith encourages people to hope and anticipate
the unexpected and unreasonable.  I think many Christians want to hear
the dramatic gay-to-straight conversion testimonies.  These are a lot
more satisfying and God-affirming than
gay-to-life-long-celibacy-and-struggle testimonies.  In comparison,
it's more dramatic to see a man get out of a wheelchair at a Benny
Hinn crusade than it is to hear how a disabled person has coped and
succeeded with their disability.  So I seriously doubt ex-gay
ministiries, in their present form, can present a rational approach
that will attract Believers.

- Norm!

I think I understand what you mean about how fundamentalists define
God through "intricate formulas".  In my ex-gay days, I eventually
became disillusioned by the increasingly elaborate explanations used
to Biblically justify reparative therapy.  Because the Bible is "God's
Word" for fundamentalists, there were attempts to show that God
approved of reparative therapy.  These usually involved misapplying
scripture in ways first century Christians would have never meant for
their words to be applied.

I agree that God is infinitely more wise and compassionate than our
limited human understanding.  Ironically since leaving fundamentalism,
I have developed more reverence for God.  God is not simply the leader
of the exclusive Christian club or the subject of evangelical slogans,
but a real, intelligent and profound presense.  I've stated this many
times before hear, but my faith is rooted in the understanding that
humans are the only known entities that seem to have a spiritual
capacity to behave beyond instinctive self-preservation.  Love,
intelligence, and self-sacrifice are our unique connection to God.

The problem is that reverently defining God in unknowns is not
particurly comforting or sellable to Christian consumers.  Most people
go to church for answers and most churches are quick to offer easy
slogan-ready answers.  And for ex-gay consumers, saying that Jesus
didn't seem to have an opinion about homosexuality isn't very
appealing either.  I'm not saying that all Christian and ex-gay
minstries are money scams.  But American Christianity is built upon
the idea of selling and promoting the "family value" image with a
definable God.  Telling Christians consumers that some may not ever
fit into the ideal, heterosexual "family value" image just isn't
enticing.

You're right.  Ex-gay ministries may not get rational very quickly.
But incidents like the John Paulk embarrassment will force them to
reconsider.  In the larger perspective, the growing definition of
"family" will eventually force American Christians to re-package, or
better yet do away with, the image they are selling.

Well, now I'm just rambling into all sorts of topics.  I better go.

- Norm!


--- In exexgayministry@y..., "Steve Boese" <steve@o...> wrote:
> Great point, Norm.
>
> I make a lousy fundamentalist.  I dabbled in it for a couple of
years in
> college, but it didn't stick with me.  The flavors of fundamentalist
> Christianity I ran into relied on magical thinking and a God who was
defined
> by intricate formulas.  It didn't make sense to me that God could be
> confined to small boxes and simple answers.
>
> Since my fundamentalist interlude, my connection to my faith has
deepened.
> I relate to God who is big enough to be infinitely more wise than
me, yet
> wise and compassionate enough to share His peace and wisdom with me.
  I
> respect my fundamentalist brothers and sisters on their journeys,
but for me
> that kind of faith was like shadow-boxing with God when He was
inviting me
> into a warm embrace and heartfelt conversation.
>
> I think the faith angle of the conversation needs to be engaged
fully.
> Ex-gay ministries may not get rational quickly, but they can be
challenged
> to set more realistic expectations and to admit they don't have a
monopoly
> on faith.
>
> But, of course I'm preaching to the choir here.
>
> In Peace,
>
> --Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nojam75 [mailto:no_reply@y...]
> Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 2:13 AM
> To: exexgayministry@y...
> Subject: [ex ex gay ministry] Re: "Ex-gay?"
>
>
> --- In exexgayministry@y..., "Steve Boese" <steve@o...> wrote:
> >>>... I think there are some rational, reasonable expectations that
> ex-gay ministries can offer to gay folks with unwanted same-sex
> attractions.  (I'll talk more about the specifics later.)  The
problem
> is that the reasonable expectations are limited, behavior-focused
and
> unworkable for many.  There is a real risk among the ministries that
> the pain of the process will be understated and the potential for
> reversing attractions will be overstated. ...
>
> I agree that ex-gay ministries should be more rational and
reasonable
> in identifying ex-gay goals.  However, most of these programs are
> faith-based ministries.  Being faith-based typically means that
their
> reasoning is not necessarily limited to rationality or reasonable
> conclusions.  In fact, faith encourages people to hope and
anticipate
> the unexpected and unreasonable.  I think many Christians want to
hear
> the dramatic gay-to-straight conversion testimonies.  These are a
lot
> more satisfying and God-affirming than
> gay-to-life-long-celibacy-and-struggle testimonies.  In comparison,
> it's more dramatic to see a man get out of a wheelchair at a Benny
> Hinn crusade than it is to hear how a disabled person has coped and
> succeeded with their disability.  So I seriously doubt ex-gay
> ministiries, in their present form, can present a rational approach
> that will attract Believers.
>
> - Norm!

Norm, I would take a degree of objection to your statement
that "being faith-based typically means that their reasoning is not
necessarily limited to rationality or reasonable conclusions."
Alhough I would wholeheartly agree that there are way too many
fundamentalists who take "faith" way beyond the limits of
rationality that God and the Bible ever intended -- and who sadly
are often responsible for giving Christianity a bad name.  But one
need also be careful about the insinuation that to be faith-based =
being irrational.  We wouldn't wish to throw out the baby with the
bath water.  After all, Judaism and Christianty, unlike other
religions or "faiths," are based on actual documented and
historically traceable events.  And contray to the belief of some,
there is, in fact, a great deal of rationality required in real
faith.  One could also argue quite convincingly that given the
evidence, it would be more irrational to be an atheist.

I do agree that "many Christians want to hear the dramatic gay-to-
straight conversion testimonies."  But the reason lies in why it is
so important for them to believe that such a transformation is
possible.  What are the circumstances and situations that cause one
to seek a change in their natural orientation?  The sad reality is
that they're not seeking or praying the kind of prayer that God can
answer.  God can certainly do anything!  Afer all, He's God.  He can
make a donkey fly, he can create a cadillac from a stone, and/or
make a 5'2" person 6'3".  But does He?  Is that the way he operates
and is it "rational" to expect that of Him, given His revelation to
us about Himself, His heart and His priorities?  I think the
irrationality is not in being of faith, but rather in what one might
have their faith in.


--- In exexgayministry@y..., nojam75 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
> --- In exexgayministry@y..., "Steve Boese" <steve@o...> wrote:
> >>>... I think there are some rational, reasonable expectations
that
> ex-gay ministries can offer to gay folks with unwanted same-sex
> attractions.  (I'll talk more about the specifics later.)  The
problem
> is that the reasonable expectations are limited, behavior-focused
and
> unworkable for many.  There is a real risk among the ministries
that
> the pain of the process will be understated and the potential for
> reversing attractions will be overstated. ...
>
> I agree that ex-gay ministries should be more rational and
reasonable
> in identifying ex-gay goals.  However, most of these programs are
> faith-based ministries.  Being faith-based typically means that
their
> reasoning is not necessarily limited to rationality or reasonable
> conclusions.  In fact, faith encourages people to hope and
anticipate
> the unexpected and unreasonable.  I think many Christians want to
hear
> the dramatic gay-to-straight conversion testimonies.  These are a
lot
> more satisfying and God-affirming than
> gay-to-life-long-celibacy-and-struggle testimonies.  In comparison,
> it's more dramatic to see a man get out of a wheelchair at a Benny
> Hinn crusade than it is to hear how a disabled person has coped and
> succeeded with their disability.  So I seriously doubt ex-gay
> ministiries, in their present form, can present a rational approach
> that will attract Believers.
>
> - Norm!

The message said I couldn't reply by e-mail because I didn't choose
to have members see my e-mail address.  I thought I had, but went
back and updated it, so hopefully this will go through.

I am also new to this group, basically just inquisitive about what
guys were saying, who either went through re-orientation therapy, or
those who chose not to do so, whatever.

I'm glad to see a little balance here with your comments, Steve,
because I find so many guys just want to bad-mouth "ex-gay"
ministries.  These are people who are really sincere and the vast,
vast majority of them are supportive of people who struggle or
embrace their gayness, because they have been there.

I went through a Living Waters program and I do not regret the
experience at all.  It gave me an opportunity to really open up about
my sexuality, which was an avenue which was not open to me before.  I
still have strong attractions for men, though I have been married for
over 25 years.  My wife knows of my struggle, we talk about it
sometimes, but it is mostly something I deal with.  In our case, I
have learned to have enjoyed sex with her over the years, even though
my real desire is to be linked up with a man.  I have no intention of
ever leaving her.

To me, the real issue has absolutely nothing to do with whether we
are born gay.  I have heard that argument on both sides of the issue,
but it has nothing to do with whether God wants us to embrace the gay
lifestyle.  We do know absolutely, however, that those of us who are
of a same-sex orientation did not choose it.  Even Dr. Dobson now
recognizes that the gay lifestyle is not chosen.

In my case, I have a real weakness for pornography and once in a
while, I have slipped up and seen some movies, but at this juncture,
I have not linked up with anyone physically.

I understand both sides of the arguments for change.  I think you are
quite right in saying that, for the most part, it is the behavior
that changes, not the orientation.  But I do think that some people
make significant mini steps toward being hetero-sexual, which works
for them.  I don't think you can put God in a box.  If they believe
that (for them, anyway), acting out homosexually is wrong and they
believe God to help them change, then we are re-miss in not
supporting them in their decision, even if we have made another
choice.  Yes, I did say choice, but what I am talking about is a
behavior choice, not a re-orientation choice.  That can only come, if
it comes at all, by the grace of God.

I know I might get jumped on for these remarks, but I can take it.

Take care and thanks for listening,

Rex

--- In exexgayministry@y..., "rexjoiner" <rexjoiner@y...> wrote:
<<If they believe that (for them, anyway), acting out homosexually
is wrong and they believe God to help them change, then we are re-
miss in not supporting them in their decision, even if we have made
another choice. Yes, I did say choice, but what I am talking about
is a behavior choice, not a re-orientation choice. That can only
come, if it comes at all, by the grace of God.>>

Rex, I appreciate your post and agree that if one believes acting
out in homosexuality is wrong then for HIM or HER it is wrong, as
Paul asserts in his discord on "eating meat that has been sacrificed
to idols" (1 Corinthians 8).  But the key to your post (in my
opinion) would be in the questionable ministry's understanding that
what they would be supporting is indeed a change in behavior -- and
not a change in orientation.

For the false hope of a change in orientation has been more
destructive to people than helpful.  Too often gay people come into
the church already being made to feel "different," "less
than," "inadequate" and oftentimes downright "unacceptable" because
of their orientations.  They then get involved with "ex-gay"
ministries in hope of "correcting" what they've been taught
is "wrong," "sinful" and in need of "repair."  But then when they
find out the "ex-gay" hope of becoming heterosexual is truly a lie
and that sexual orientation is not mutable, most end up leaving the
church and God all together, not being able to separate the two.
Many too have committed suicide.  We must guard against offering a
hope that we cannot deliver on.

And we must very careful about what we teach is unacceptable to God
as Paul strongly admonished in his discourse on "the weak and the
strong" in Romans 14.  In this discourse, centered in Romans 14,
Paul addresses a church embroiled in disputes and controversies over
behavior and lifestyle.  The church is made up of Christians he sees
as "weak-in-faith" and Christians who are "strong-in-faith."  He
sees the "weak-in-faith" as those who are less willing or able to
trust in God's grace alone, without adding restrictive rules and
regulations.  In Paul's day, one of the biggest controversies in the
church was over laws about observing diets and days.  In our day,
perhaps the biggest controversy is over homosexuality.  For us these
days, homosexuality is indeed a bigger issue than diets and days.
It's a bigger and deeper issue because unlike all other
controversies in the history of the church, it goes to the very
heart of a person's most personal interpersonal experience.  A
person's self-awareness of his or her need for an intimate
psychological connection of profound love and intimacy with another
human being is one of the very strongest needs anyone has.

Welcome, Rex.

Congratulations on taking the steps that work for you and fit your values,
beliefs and commitments.

When I opened up to my then-wife about my same-sex attractions the
worst-case scenario in my head was that shun me and we'd be separated within
days.  Things didn't go as badly as that, but in 6 months of trying to
figure out how we could continue a monogamous marriage that could be healthy
for both of us, no amount of counseling, talking and praying opened a door
that would work.

It says something for both you and your wife that you've crossed difficult
bridges and found answers that are working.

I have done my fair share of therapy and considered all of the options.
Reparative therapy wasn't a good fit for me; like you, my option was to
integrate an honest understanding of who I am (a guy with predominant SSA)
into my marriage.

The other disconnect between my wife and me related to faith.  We were both
Christian and active in our church, and I remained committed to the marriage
with a sense that the commitment to her and my kids mattered.  We disagreed
on whether God calls all people with SSA to celibacy or working with
ex-ministries.  After not acting out sexually and not struggling with
compulsivity issues, I didn't feel threatened by gay people and enjoyed
hanging out with diverse friends.

It just got messy -- there's no way to due justice to all of the stuff we
were going through then.

I have a friend, too, who has been married for 25+ years and has dealt with
SSA.  Between him and his wife, it came out when he went through alcoholism
treatment.  The SSA was there for him, but so was a remarkable connection
with his wife.  (We went to the same church -- they were the cutest,
funniest couple, laughing all the time.)  During some of his heavy drinking,
though, he was seeking out anonymous encounters with guys.

During treatment, he came clean with his wife.  Her response was very
matter-of-fact:  "I love you, I want you to be happy, I'd prefer to continue
in our life together.  If you choose to stay with me and only me, I'll do
whatever it takes as long as you will."

They're in their 60's now, have survived a couple of bouts of her cancer and
renovated their old house.  He didn't do the ex-gay thing, they live in a
historic area with a lot of gay and lesbian neighbors and friends.  They
have a happy, peaceful life.

So, I believe it's possible for some people with SSA to live happily without
expressing it in same-sex relationships, and God calls some people to that
path.  He also calls some folks to learn lessons by living with and
integrating their SSA into their loving relationships.

Just my two cents... on my way to a dime!

--Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: rexjoiner [mailto:rexjoiner@...]
Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 2:39 PM
To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ex ex gay ministry] HOPE THIS GOES THROUGH OK


The message said I couldn't reply by e-mail because I didn't choose
to have members see my e-mail address.  I thought I had, but went
back and updated it, so hopefully this will go through.

I am also new to this group, basically just inquisitive about what
guys were saying, who either went through re-orientation therapy, or
those who chose not to do so, whatever.

I'm glad to see a little balance here with your comments, Steve,
because I find so many guys just want to bad-mouth "ex-gay"
ministries.  These are people who are really sincere and the vast,
vast majority of them are supportive of people who struggle or
embrace their gayness, because they have been there.

I went through a Living Waters program and I do not regret the
experience at all.  It gave me an opportunity to really open up about
my sexuality, which was an avenue which was not open to me before.  I
still have strong attractions for men, though I have been married for
over 25 years.  My wife knows of my struggle, we talk about it
sometimes, but it is mostly something I deal with.  In our case, I
have learned to have enjoyed sex with her over the years, even though
my real desire is to be linked up with a man.  I have no intention of
ever leaving her.

To me, the real issue has absolutely nothing to do with whether we
are born gay.  I have heard that argument on both sides of the issue,
but it has nothing to do with whether God wants us to embrace the gay
lifestyle.  We do know absolutely, however, that those of us who are
of a same-sex orientation did not choose it.  Even Dr. Dobson now
recognizes that the gay lifestyle is not chosen.

In my case, I have a real weakness for pornography and once in a
while, I have slipped up and seen some movies, but at this juncture,
I have not linked up with anyone physically.

I understand both sides of the arguments for change.  I think you are
quite right in saying that, for the most part, it is the behavior
that changes, not the orientation.  But I do think that some people
make significant mini steps toward being hetero-sexual, which works
for them.  I don't think you can put God in a box.  If they believe
that (for them, anyway), acting out homosexually is wrong and they
believe God to help them change, then we are re-miss in not
supporting them in their decision, even if we have made another
choice.  Yes, I did say choice, but what I am talking about is a
behavior choice, not a re-orientation choice.  That can only come, if
it comes at all, by the grace of God.

I know I might get jumped on for these remarks, but I can take it.

Take care and thanks for listening,

Rex




Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT




To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
exexgayministry-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

nyguy_1225 said:

> Too often gay people come into the church already
> being made to feel "different," "less than,"
> "inadequate" and oftentimes downright "unacceptable"
> because of their orientations. ... Many too have
> committed suicide.  We must guard against offering a
> hope that we cannot deliver on.

The "not good enough" message that gay people (and some that don't have SSA)
get from many churches is a really tragic one.  My previous partner was
married for 22 years and active in churches that meant the world to him.  He
knew about his SSA because his only pre-marital relationship (late
teens/early twenties) was with a guy.  Over the years it gnawed at him that
even though he loved playing piano and organ and directing church choirs,
running himself ragged volunteering, he wouldn't be welcome there if they
knew who he really was.

He came out in the context of his depression after a suicide attempt and was
open with his pastor.  The pastor was somewhat understanding, wanting him to
live and find peace, but after Dale left the marriage the pastor said it
would be better for him to leave the church, too.

Dale volunteered to play organ for a small country church a few months
later.  He didn't want to do it in hiding or have problems if people at the
church found out he was gay later, so he came out to the pastor in a gentle,
thoughtful way.  That ended his option to do anything for that church, too,
unless he promised to be permanently celibate.

Dale had been battling the depression steadily since his the previous
suicide attempt 2 years earlier.  Taking the meds, seeing his psychiatrist,
etc.

The day after he was turned away by the pastor, Dale ordered a "how to"
guide on suicide over the internet.  Two months later he was dead by his own
hand.  (That was November, 2000.)

Dale battled a two-headed monster: His depression and his sense that he
wasn't "good enough" because of his SSA.  Throughout his life in the
churches that he loved dearly, he kept hearing messages that he wasn't "good
enough".  His depression compounded it, convincing him that he wasn't trying
hard enough either.  It finally left him with doubts as to whether it would
be better for his wife to be a widow or the ex-wife of a gay man.  He pulled
through that for a couple of years (we dated for one year, and there were
some really wonderful times together), but ultimately his depression
convinced him that it would be easier for his loved ones to deal with his
death than his coming-out.

Complex issues, indeed.

That's one of the things that I hope ex-gay ministries can communicate to
their clients:  We want you to live.  We want you to be healthy.  We want
you to find peace.  We want you to have safe space to work on those kinds of
things.  We want you seek God.  We want you to know that you are loved just
as you are.

Never mind the two-cents thing... now I *have* thrown at least a dime into
the pot here!

In Peace,

--Steve

Dear Rex,

It's great to hear from you and I am glad you are on this list.

I am glad that there are people (whether they call themselves ex-gay or
not) who take responsibility for their own walk with God and their
wives, without bullying others into adopting the same exact walk.

I think Dr. Dobson and his ex-gay staffers could learn a lot from your
perspective.

-- Mike



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In exexgayministry@y..., "Steve Boese" <steve@o...> wrote:
<<Never mind the two-cents thing... now I *have* thrown at least a
dime into the pot here!>>

...and a rather valuable dime, if you ask me. Thanks for sharing.

--- In exexgayministry@y..., "rexjoiner" <rexjoiner@y...> wrote:
> I went through a Living Waters program and I do not regret the
> experience at all.  It gave me an opportunity to really open up
about
> my sexuality, which was an avenue which was not open to me before.
I
> still have strong attractions for men, though I have been married
for
> over 25 years.

======================
To Rex and the group:

I have some comments about your statements and some
observation…not
flames, just observations.  You said:  …"the vast,  vast
majority of
them are supportive of people who struggle or embrace their gayness,
because they have been there."

I have never been involved in an ex-gay movement, but I know plenty
of people who have been.  For over 20 years, I have known some of the
leaders, none, of whom, are still involved in the ex-gay ministry.
If you go into an ex-gay ministry and continue to "embrace their
gayness," you will eventually be asked to LEAVE!  To me, that is
not
supportive.

The fact that you have been married for 25 years implies that you
were, at one point, attracted to your wife enough to find (at least)
emotional/romantic feelings strong enough to exchange marital vows.
A gay person does NOT do that.  You obviously would be considered bi-
sexual…as others have probably told you.  You aren't gay.

You use the term, "…to embrace the gay lifestyle."  When did
you
embrace the "heterosexual lifestyle?"  When did you embrace
the "Christian lifestyle."

Then you stated, "…the gay lifestyle is not chosen."  WHAT
"gay
lifestyle is not chosen?"  What does THAT mean?  Did you CHOOSE
the "heterosexual lifestyle" or the "Christian
lifestyle?"  Please
define the "gay lifestyle."  Seriously…define it and be
specific.
While you are at it, you can define the "Christian lifestyle"
and be
specific about it.

You seem to have embraced the lingo of GENERALIZATION and lack the
ability to really understand what being gay really is…because you
have demonstrated that you are NOT gay!

You stated…"If they believe that (for them, anyway), acting out
homosexually is wrong and they believe God to help them change, then
we are re-miss in not supporting them in their decision, even if we
have made another choice."

I would reply by saying, if one believes that (for them, anyway)
being gay is OK and God will accept them, then we are re-miss in not
supporting them in their decision, even if we have made another
choice.  Don't you agree?

You stated…"…but what I am talking about is a behavior choice,
not a
re-orientation choice. That can only come, if it comes at all, by the
grace of God."

Not true.  A behavior choice can come to any person who is STRONGLY
motivated.  It happens every day and God is usually not involved at
all in the process.  Just ask any counselor.

These are my observations.  These comments are not flames.  I am
serious.

--- In exexgayministry@y..., "Steve Boese" <steve@o...> wrote:
> That's one of the things that I hope ex-gay ministries can
communicate to their clients:  We want you to live.  We want you to
be healthy.   We want you to find peace.  We want you to have safe
space to work on those kinds of things.  We want you seek God.  We
want you to know that you are loved just as you are.

=====================

Steve (and others), I have NEVER heard or read THAT from any "ex-gay"
ministry.  Their goal is for you to either change, to ACT is if you
are changing, to act as if you have already changed, or to quietly
LEAVE the group and say nothing!

I know people who have left the ministries after NOT finding that
change, people who have been asked to leave the ministries because
they KNEW it was not working and asked too many confrontational
questions, and people who have been seduced by the leaders of the
ministry.  One long-time friend moved to Florida with the leader of
the Dallas ex-gay group he was attending, after the leader seduced
him!  I think they have been there around 13 or 14 years.

I just wish the leaders in the groups would be honest up-front!  They
could avoid destroying many lives of young Christians who are
sincerely seeking answers!

Hey, Don...

I can appreciate your comments.  I think it is less than fair, though, for
any of us to tell the other what they are:

<< The fact that you have been married for 25 years implies that you were,
at one point, attracted to your wife enough to find (at least)
emotional/romantic feelings strong enough to exchange marital vows.  A gay
person does NOT do that.  You obviously would be considered bi-sexual…as
others have probably told you.  You aren't gay. >>

One of the interesting things about Rex's message to us was that he didn't
use any label to identify himself.  The closest he came was mentioning
"those of us who are of a same-sex orientation", but he didn't specifically
describe himself as gay, ex-gay or anything else.

It bothers me when people tell me I can't be gay, because I'm the only one
who has the right to identify myself.  People may say, after knowing I was
married for 10 years, fathered 3 kids and was monogamous, that I must be
bisexual.  That is technically accurate in the sense that I'm obviously
capable of some emotional and physical intimacy with a woman, but I don't
identify myself as bi because it doesn't fit.  Even though I'm capable of
it, I have no desire or intent to be in a relationship with a woman again.
Among my peers (gay, midwestern, 40+) about half have been married and have
kids.

I can identify with Rex, because if it had been possible I would have
prefered to keep working on my marriage much longer than I did.  If I chose
to identify myself in that situation, the best description would have been
"married and gay".  That sounds like a contradiction in terms to some,
especially when you add "monogamous".  But, to me that meant that I was a
guy with predominant same-sex attractions who was making the
choice/commitment to be a nurturing, loving husband to my partner (the
person more than the gender) in every way that I could.

I've heard about guys who are "gay for pay".  If I had stayed married, you
could have called me "straight for love".

<< You seem to have embraced the lingo of GENERALIZATION and lack the
ability to really understand... >>

I didn't hear Rex saying he had a lock on understanding.  He understands his
own journey very well (including life-long same-sex attractions), and beyond
that is interested in listening and sharing.

Just my thoughts...

In Peace,

--Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: calldon2k [mailto:no_reply@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 2:09 PM
To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ex ex gay ministry] Re: HOPE THIS GOES THROUGH OK


--- In exexgayministry@y..., "rexjoiner" <rexjoiner@y...> wrote:
> I went through a Living Waters program and I do not regret the
> experience at all.  It gave me an opportunity to really open up
> about my sexuality, which was an avenue which was not open to me
> before.  I still have strong attractions for men, though I have
> been married for over 25 years.

======================
To Rex and the group:

I have some comments about your statements and some observation…not flames,
just observations...

Not all ex-gay ministries are violently homophobic -- I personally know
of a handful of ex-gay ministries that are faith-based yet affirming of
gay individuals' immeasurable value to God and society.

But unfortunately, all ex-gay ministries suffer public humiliation
caused by the extremism of the movement's top leadership. The best-known
ex-gay ministers -- Michael Johnston, Mike Haley, Anthony Falzarano,
John Paulk, Anne Paulk -- pursue a vision that I consider inherently
suicidal -- a vision of spiritual rejection, self-hatred,
self-destruction, fanatical fundamentalism, and sexual obsession from
which they cannot escape (for the remind themselves of their sexual
struggles constantly).

In contrast to that nihilistic vision, I believe Steve Boese suggested a
new vision for the ex-gay movement -- a vision I consider redemptive
instead of suicidal. As Steve said, here's what the ex-gay movement
OUGHT to be saying:

"We want you to live.  We want you to be healthy.   We want you to find
peace.  We want you to have safe space to work on those kinds of things.
We want you seek God.  We want you to know that you are loved just as
you are. "

We can curse the darkness on this list -- or we can develop ways to
steer ex-gays and their local leaders toward a constructive vision and
philosophy of life.

What can we do to steer ex-gays in that direction?

It seems to me that ranting at them, as we are often prone to do, will
only discourage them from moving away from their leadership's nihilism.

-- Mike

--- In exexgayministry@y..., "Steve Boese" <steve@o...> wrote:
> Hey, Don...
>
> I can appreciate your comments.  I think it is less than fair,
though, for
> any of us to tell the other what they are:

I did not mean to be judging Rex.  By his own admission, he was
enjoying 25 years of marriage to his wife.  A person who is strongly
gay will rarely enjoy sex with one of the opposite sex.  Nor will
they find that ultimate intimacy with one of the opposite sex.
Observing his comments, I would not call him gay in the "classic
sense."  <gr>  Again, it is just my observation or opinion.

> It bothers me when people tell me I can't be gay, because I'm the
only one
> who has the right to identify myself.

I like to think of it as that "continuem" (sp.)  Exclusively gay at
one one and exclusively straight at the other end.  I wouldn't try to
label EXCEPT that the ministries are not called "ex-somewhat-gay"
ministries.  They are called "ex-gay" ministries.  Most have the goal
to make you STRAIGHT, not "somewhat-straight."

> Among my peers (gay, midwestern, 40+) about half have been married
and have
> kids.

That would be more true among the over 50 age group and almost non-
existant among the under 40 age group!

> I didn't hear Rex saying he had a lock on understanding.

My comment was to his lack of understanding the general term "gay
lifestyle" and the way he used it twice!  (Or mis-used it.)

I have heard several "ex-gay" testimonies live or on tv/radio.  But I
have read dozens more of them.  Honestly the vast majority were from
people who were having sex with the opposite sex as well as the same
sex.  A great many were currently or had been married and were caught
fooling around.(a good motivation for changing.)  Almost NONE claimed
to actually be "set free" from homosexuality as the ministries
promote.

Then these same "not-gay" people enter an ex-gay group, spend time in
counseling then tell all of the struggling GAY folks that they can be
changed and SHOULD BE CHANGED (like they were!)

Changed from what?  From a divorced bi-sexual to a married pseudo-
heterosexual?  From a sex addict to a neurotic,celebate gay man?

I am glad you are Rex are dealing with your sexuality and your life
situation.  But I have seen the emotionally-wrecked lives of those
who were castaway from ex-gay groups.  I have seen the dissapointed
truth-seekers finally give-up on God and LEAVE their once-exciting
faith because they did not reach that great treasure of
heterosexuality and healing promised to them by the leaders of the
group...many, of whom, were later revealed to be heterosexual from
the beginning or bi-sexual from the beginning.

Sorry if I seem somewhat jaded with the whole ex-gay ministry idea.
But the only "healing" I have observed has been from BI to not-so-
bi...NOT from gay to straight!  Even then, it was more of
acceptance and behaviour change than change in orientation.

Please don't stop posting or commenting.  I just wanted to clarify
WHY I speak as I do.  I am not really mean or angry.  But there is
nothing like knowing and watching a good man grow in Christ for ten
years or more, then seeing their faith in Jesus destroyed by an ex-
gay ministry.  Been there...done that...seen it happen!!!

D*

--- In exexgayministry@y..., "Mike Airhart" <mairhart@i...> wrote:
> Not all ex-gay ministries are violently homophobic

I do not know of an Exodus associated "ex-gay" ministry which allows
a gay person to remain content being gay.  The goal of the ministry
is to CHANGE them, usually to heterosexuality.

> In contrast to that nihilistic vision, I believe Steve Boese
suggested a
> new vision for the ex-gay movement -- a vision I consider redemptive
> instead of suicidal. As Steve said, here's what the ex-gay movement
> OUGHT to be saying:
>
> "We want you to live.  We want you to be healthy.   We want you to
find
> peace.  We want you to have safe space to work on those kinds of
things.
> We want you seek God.  We want you to know that you are loved just
as
> you are. "

What do you suppose these ministries would do to the person who is
satisfied with accepting his/her sexuality (gay) and living as a gay
Christian?  What would this ministry say to them?  What would be the
ministry's goal for that person?  How long could that person stay
involved and participate?

D*

If we know anything about sexuality, we know that it is very
complex.  And I don't think we can pigeon hole or define someone's
sexuality by whether or not they're married or not, how long or how
short a time they may have been married or how often they may have
sex and/or with who.  As Roy Clements rightly pointed out, we need
to be very careful about confusing orientation with behavior.
Straight people may in certain circumstances engage in genital
homosexual acts e.g. in a single-sex social environment like a
prison, the navy, or a boarding school.  And similarly, gay people
under certain kinds of pressure (and God knows there's plenty of
pressure out there -- from society, churches, family, etc.), may
marry and have children.  But we can't assess someone's sexuality
from that.

We also don't know a great deal about the many factors that
contribute to make one's sexuality.  There are those who talk about
genetics. There are those who talk about biophysical. There are
those who talk about sociological, psychological factors. Nobody
knows. And many others say, for the most part, there are a variety
of factors that interact with each other to create one's sexuality
and it may even be that no two people are gay for the same reason.
If this is true, then we can't really compare on person's "gayness"
with another's.  Everyone needs to feel free to be who they are and
build for themselves an honest life which encompasses authentic
relationships of integrity, that are based on mutual respect and
honor and without due pressure from others to be anyone other than
who they.  And that may or may not have a nice, neat label that can
be attached to it.

There are many factors that combine to make a relationship work.
People often say that "love is blind."  It isn't true.  It is love
that is truly perceptive.  William James the poet had something very
interesting to say about this.  When Jack and Jill (or Steve and
Bill) fall in love, all the old gossips get together over their
coffee cups and one says, "I don't know what she sees in him."  And
the other says, "I know it.  And what does he sees in her."   Says
William James: "They're absolutely right, they don't know but all
that they could know."  Because it is love that infuses others with
worth and with tenderness.  James says, "Who sees truly, the old
gossips over their coffee cups?  Or Jack and Jill [or Steve and
Bill] who find a new wonder infusing their lives?"   Love is not
blind.  It is love that is truly perceptive and can enable us to
see.

Don said:

<< How long could that person stay involved and participate? >>

I'm not sure if we're understanding one another.

I'm not suggesting that gay folks should join ex-gay ministries.

I'm asking what we can do to appeal to gay or bi folks who genuinely
don't want to be sexually active. I'm asking how might we persuade local
ex-gay groups to be less paranoid, obsessive, nihilistic and
anti-spiritual.

-- Mike

--- In exexgayministry@y..., "Mike Airhart" <mairhart@i...> wrote:
> I'm asking what we can do to appeal to gay or bi folks who genuinely
> don't want to be sexually active.

What can we do to appeal to heterosexual folks who genuinely don't
want to be sexually active?

What do you say to them?

>I'm asking how might we persuade local
> ex-gay groups to be less paranoid, obsessive, nihilistic and
> anti-spiritual.

Good luck with that assignment!

Change, seek change or be gone...is their battle cry.

Too bad for gay folks who want to love God.

I finally got a chance to read the March 11, 2002, Christianity Today
article, "No Easy Victory", by Anonymous
(http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2002/003/2.50.html).  This is an
amazingly candid article for an evangelical publication to print.  Its
concluding message about the double standard in which many Christians
sigmatize homosexuality as a worse 'sin' and marginalize homosexuals
as worse 'sinners' is nothing new or surprising.  What is surprising
is how honest Anonymous is about his endless struggle against his
homosexuality.

Like the January 7, 2002 CT interview with Bob Davies, the
conservative Christian message seems to be shifting from 'gays can
change' to 'gays can only change their behavior'.  Anonymous
specifically states, "...my sexual orientation did not change;" and
"But for all my trying, all I've managed to do is control the
behavioral manifestations of my sexual orientation."  He even
identifies himself as "gay" and "homosexual" while carefully asserting
that he is not in favor of homosexuality and has a "fulfilling
heterosexual life" with his wife.

Although Anonymous' description of his homosexuality ("I am broken",
"emotional attractions and attachments to other men", etc.) fits
almost word-for-word with reparative therapy and ex-gay theories,
ex-gay treatment or reparative therapy are not specifically mentioned.
  In fact, I assume they were purposely avoided because Anonymous does
not portray a very flattering picture of the ex-gay lifestyle.  He
admits to having "self-hate" and "recurring bouts of almost suicidal
depression" and admits that the "daily" battle against his sexuality
has come at "considerable psychological cost to me and to my family".
  (Golly, I want to become ex-gay too!  Where do I sign up?)

It will be interesting to see if CT is willing to share Anonymous'
ex-gay lifestyle whenever they do another ex-gay promotion article
like the Davies interview.

- Norm! (nojam@...)


--- In exexgayministry@y..., nyguy_1225 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
> If you think CT's recent profile on Bob Davies, subtitled "The
> retiring head of Exodus says gay transformation ministries are more
> respected and effective than ever!" was worthy of discussion -- just
> wait until you feast your eyes on the current issue's most
> intriguing article: "No Easy Victory," by an anonymous Christian
> homosexual who acknowledges "the fact that I'm still homosexual."
> He says he's "tried to change, tried to become heterosexual, tried
> just about everything to do so!  Counseling, therapy, prayer,
> healing -? you name it.  But for all my trying, all I've managed to
> do is control the behavioral manifestations of my sexual
> orientation."
>
> I've got lots to say about this one but I'll reserve spouting out
> any oratory until a few others chance to read it.  I will say,
> however, I'm astounded the piece actually got printed; it's the
> first time ever that a major evangelical magazine has published such
> a testimony!