Hey guys, first off I hope you all had wonderful
holiday seasons. I haven't posted in here for a while and
just wanted to drop a line. I have been going through
a wierd time here of late. I even posted on an
exgay board yesterday. I don't know what my problem is
but I would appreciate some words of prayer if you
think of it.<br><br>God bless<br>David

Not to worry, df, we are set free by the real
freedom which Jesus gives - not what humans dictate; it
just shows your heart wants to do the right thing. I
audit many different clubs to get a balance of what's
going on in our very real world. While I would wish
more frequent postings in this club I certainly prefer
it to some other legalistic ones that are out there.
I can't speak for all the members in this club, but
I'll bet we are much in agreement in our prayers for
each other. Blessings, dear brother. I share some
thoughts from our Sunday's sermon (Isa 43:1-7) "...I have
redeemed you...do not fear...I will be with you...In
short, I think God loves us and tells us we are
wonderfully made! Peace.

If you or anyone you know has been seriously
wounded by "reparative therapy" or ex-gay ministry,
please e-mail me. Seriously wounded would mean: suicide,
suicide attempt, sexual contact with a counselor, loss of
home or family, psychological torture, spiritual
abuse, etc. It may be time to take legal action against
perpetrators and practioners of "reparative therapy". Stop by
my web page at www.exexgay.com <br>Take
Care,<br>Jeff Ford

Hello members. I am looking to chat with other men who have been down the road i
have traveled. If you would like to chat send me a message. See Ya:  James

For sometime I've considered building an
ex-ex-gay website resource. It seems to me that there are
numerous on-line resources, but I have yet to see any site
that really ties everything together
(psychology/theology/politics/humor) from the ex-ex-gay perspective. <br><br>So
my
2001 resolution is to begin building the website, once
I get my home computer back up. This proposed
website would compliment this club. It will probably be
composed of links initially, but I am open to suggestions
of what a website could include? <br><br>Norm!
(nojam75@...)

I knew I had seen a website for exexgays, I
didn't find the one I had been to in the past, but I did
find GLAADS.<br>I think its
www.glaad.org/org/publications/alerts/?record=1818 .The other one was not an
organization but a
private one, I will continue to look for it.

Thanks for the link, Novachub. I remember Doug
Upchurch's Ex.Ex website. It used to be on AOL, but has
since gone offline. Which is too bad, because it was a
good start at an ex-ex-gay website. I remember seeing
the guy who created the site, Doug Upchurch, on
either a 60 Minutes or 20/20 report. <br><br>Does
anybody know what happen to Doug Upchurch?<br><br>- Norm!
(nojam75@...)

Welcome to the club, James! <br><br>I'm not able to spend much time chatting,
but you are welcome to post here.  <br><br>- Norm! (nojam75@...)

Hi James, I'd be happy to chat with you anytime.  I traveled down the "road"
myself and have learned a thing or two along the way.

Here's a an interesting quote -- particlularly
interesting in light of Lewis being considered by many to be
one of the most prolific and respected Christian
writers of the 20th century. Lewis (whose very closest
friend throughout his life was gay), made this keen
observation on the typical antipathy to gay people:
<br><br>"There is much hypocracy on this theme. People commonly
talk as if every other evil were more tolerable than
this. But why? Because those of us who don't share this
vice feel for it a certain nausea,...? I think that a
very little relevance to moral judgment. ...Is it then
on Christian grounds? But how many of those who
fulminate on the matter are in fact Christians? And what
Christian, in a society so worldly and cruel...would pick
out the carnal sins for special reprobation? Cruelty
is surely more evil than lust and the World at least
as dangerous as the Flesh. The real reason for all
the pother is, in my opinion, neither Christian nor
ethical. We attack this vice not because it is the worst
but because it is, by adult standards, the most
disreputable and unmentioinable, and also happens to be a
crime."

And if the last quote was not enough, elsewhere
Lewis had addressed issues of reinfornced therapies.
His words are particularly prophetic when applied to
those who claim that it is out of love they they press
"reparative therapy" onto gay people:<br><br>"Of all
tyrannies a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims
may be the most oppressive. ...To be 'cured' against
one's will and cured of states which we may not regard
as disease is to be put on a level with those who
have not yet reached the age of reason. ...You start
being 'kind' to people before you have considered their
rights, and then force upon them supposed kindnesses
which they in fact had a right to refuse, and finally
kindnesses which no one but you will recognize as kindnesses
and which the recipient will feel as abominable
cruelties."

Hi, I was never an "ex-gay". I have read a number
of the messages in this group and felt a definite
sympathy towards this club. I especially like the
spiritual and moral focus I see here in distinction to so
much of what one sees on many gay websites.<br><br>My
story is that I have known that I was gay since at
least age twelve. I believed for many years that I was
disordered and lived my life in near isolation. My father
was an alcoholic and I think I blamed him for my
homosexuality. I came out about a year and a half ago, at age
33, because I was on the verge of a nervous
breakdown. I knew all the stereotypes about the "gay
lifestyle" and many of them were confirmed by my experience.
I have sought the fellowship of more down to earth,
spiritually focused gay people but find them to be in the
minority. Many times the temptation to run back into the
closet from which I came was there but I stopped myself
because I have been there and done that and know what
awaits me there. I don't see it as possible to go back
now.<br><br>My main issue now is that I have met and started
seeing someone with whom I believe I can have a long
term relationship. We share many of the same
attitudes. We both believe in taking things slow. Instead of
seeing this as the best time of my life, my feelings
about my own sexuality have never been more mixed. As a
Christian (Catholic), I have explored all the doctrinal
pros and cons of being gay. Psychologically, I know
that being closeted was a harmful expeience. I suppose
now I am wondering, "What if I'm wrong? What if being
gay is abnormal after all? Am I hurting myself? Worse
still, am I hurting my prospective partner?" These
questions lurk in my head as I face the possibility of the
first (and with any luck, only) serious relationship of
my life. I have never been a part of any ex-gay
ministry but can understand now why so many would. You can
say I am ex-gay for about fifteen minutes a day. I
still feel the need to question.<br><br>Has anyone else
here had these feelings at the beginning of a romantic
relationship? I'd be interested in knowing how you resolved
them. This is a major milestone in my coming out
experience.<br><br>Peace,<br>Joe

Being gay is abnormal--when you consider
populations in general. But it is not abnormal when you
consider individuals like yourself. <br><br>But so what?
Being celibate is abnormal, yet nobody (much) believes
that the catholic priesthood is to be vilified because
they are (or are supposed to be) celibate. A
vegetarian (for a human being) is abnormal. Being
left-handed is abnormal. Being blond-haired is abnormal.
Being blue eyed is abnormal. Being Caucasian is
abnormal--most people aren't. Hell, even being catholic is
abnormal, since most people aren't. But so what? What's the
big deal about being abnormal--about being different
than other people?

Welcome, Joe!<br><br>I relate to your comment,
"...I am ex-gay for about fifteen minutes a day". At
times in my day-to-day life, I still have to replay the
old psychological/theological arguments again. I have
learned that over time I have begun to unlearn the old
messages of condemnation. The new message of hope and
responsibility has become more authentic in my life as I
experience the genuine blessings of honest fellowship in my
life. <br><br>You're right, finding deep, meaningful,
and authentic fellowship is difficult not only in gay
communities, but straight communities as well. That is why we
should cherish those we do find. I think ex-gays and
closeted gays develop the idea that 'doing nothing causes
no harm' without considering the harm that is caused
be their absence. <br><br>It sounds like you have
carefully considered the ramifications of your beliefs and
the impact your life has on those around you. Instead
of questioning whether or not your relationship is
harmful to your prospective partner, you should consider
the harm in denying prospective partner and the gay
community the impact of your life. <br> <br>(Sorry, getting
preachy). Thanks for sharing your questions and joining. We
look forward to your contributions. <br><br>- Norm!
(nojam75@...)

NYguy, <br><br>Thanks for the C.S. Lewis quotes.  It has sparked my curiousity. 
Can you tell us where the quotes came from?  <br><br>Thanks, <br><br>Norm!

<<I have explored all the doctrinal pros
and cons of being gay. Psychologically, I know that
being closeted was a harmful expeience. I suppose now I
am wondering, "What if I'm wrong?>><br><br>But
wrong by who's standards? God or man? As an Evangelical
Christian I have a very high view of Scripture and take the
Bible very seriously. Therfore, what the Bible has to
say about homosexuality (or any other issue for that
matter) is of great importance to me and not to be simply
passed off. As a gay man, I have had to deeply grapple
with the passages concerning homosexuality. I have
studied them for years, prayed over them, cried over
them, sought God diligently, fasted over them, sought
much counsel, read scores of books, other material,
and a host of other things in the course of my
journey. <br><br>I have come to the conclusion that this
is not an issue of dismissing or ignoring biblical
truths as too many well-meaning (and some not so
well-meaning) Christians suggest. Rather, this is a matter of
how certain people read certain passages in such a
way as to lend legitimacy to their own doctrinal
prejudices. They'd rather hold tight to their own ideology
than concede to the possibility that the Bible and the
God who inspired it may be a little more gracious and
inclusive than their doctrinal prejudices will presently
allow.<br><br>God promises, "Call to Me and I will answer you and
tell you great and might things which you do not know"
(Jeremiah 33:3). I can honestly say after 18 years of
believing the "ex-gay" lie, I now have to good fortune and
know the joy of living a clean and honest life as a
responsible gay Christian man before God, before my fellow
man -- and before myself. That my brother is true
freedom in Christ! I would hope you would not allow
anyone to deprive you of that.

Hi Norm,<br><br>Aren't they terrific??!! Ralph
Blair, who founded "Evangelicals Concerned, Inc."
included these quotes in a paper he wrote a number of
years ago. Ironically, I actually asked him just this
past week specifically where the quotes came from. He
knew they were from some "journal" -- and said he'll
go back to his records and get me the specifics.
I'll keep you posted!

nyguy you're awesome! "Thanks" is not enough for
your sage posts, you manifest such an anointing - by
the way have you considered your own web page
ministry? Perhaps we all might pray about this one, eh? God
bless you.

Thanks for your gracious words.  Actually, I'm much better one on one.  God
bless you too, my brother.

Thank you to all of you who responded to my
message in such a short span of time. I can see this is a
place where true fellowship abides. All your responses
helped alot. I can see that this is a very active grop
too, where people truly band together to strengthen
each other. ((HUGS))<br><br>Thanks also for the C.S.
Lewis quotes. Look forward to seeing some more.

I thought this was really funny. <br><br>EX-GAY
CLAIMS HOSTILE PSYCHIATRIC, PSYCHOLOGICAL, & TRANSIT
ORGANIZATIONS ARE FIGHTING EX-GAYS<br><br>Ex-gay, John Paulk,
announced that the ex-gay movement is facing hostile
confrontation "hand-in-hand" by the psychiatric, psychological,
and public transit organizations. The rebounding
ex-gay was quoted in an Exodus International press
release announcing Focus on the Family's lawsuit against
the Pinellas Suncoast Transit Authority for refusing
to advertise an ex-gay conference. "Increasingly,
the ex-gay movement is encountering hostility to our
message," Paulk said. "This is another example of the
attempts to silence our message. It goes hand-in-hand with
what is occurring in the psychiatric and psychological
fields."<br><br>Similarly, Paulk made seemingly paranoid statements in a
October 11, 2000 Focus on the Family radio broadcast
about in which stated the gay forces had stressed him
into repeatedly visiting a gay bar in Washington, D.C.
<br><br>Although there are legitimate free speech issues regarding
the Pinellas Suncoast Transit Authority's right to
limit the type of advertising on its buses, the transit
agency has not solely refused ex-gay ads. According to a
February 25, 1999 on-line article of the St. Peterburg
Times, the transit authority has refused to run ads from
pro- and anti-Scientology, Salvation Army, and United
Way organizations. The transit agency's controversial
censorship policy was initiated after it removed anti-Church
of Scientology advertising that included messages
such as: "Think for Yourself. Quit Scientology" and
"Why does Scientology lie to its members?" According
to the Exodus press release, the transit agency
refused to run FOTF's anti-gay ads about "Addressing,
Understanding and Preventing Homosexuality."<br><br>Sources:
Exodus International 01/12/2001 press release
(<a href=http://www.exodusnorthamerica.org/news/pressrel/a0000725.html
target=new>http://www.exodusnorthamerica.org/news/pressrel/a0000725.html</a>);
St. Petersburg Times 02/25/1999 on-line article
(<a
href=http://www.sptimes.com/News/22599/NorthPinellas/Public_service_ads_ba.html
target=new>http://www.sptimes.com/News/22599/NorthPinellas/Public_service_ads_ba\
.html</a>).

Paulk isn't ex-gay. He says he is, but he really
isn't. He was caught cavorting in a gay bar in
Washington DC last September. It was all reported in the
Southern Voice at
<a
href=http://www.southernvoice.com/southernvoice/news/record.html?record=10262&se\
archwords=paulk
target=new>http://www.southernvoice.com/southernvoice/news/record.html?record=10\
262&searchw
ords=paulk</a>

After John Paulk was caught drinking and
socializing in a gay bar, Exodus Director Bob Davies was
quoted as saying that he "had no sinful intentions in
entering that bar." In the aftermath Paulk complains, "The
gay press is now crucifying me" and says, "My choice
to remain in a gay establishment doesn't take away
the victory."<br><br>Yet in a later press release
Director Davies admitted that Exodus must
"re-examine...the public perception of our use of terms such as
'healing' and 'change.'" So then Davies is arguing that
churches, ex-gays, and their families should NOT be
focusing on expectations of actual healing or change of
homosexual orientation.<br><br>Moreover, in a press release
issued on August 11 (almost a month before Paulk's
incident), and in response to the recently published
testimonies of 14 ex-ex-gays, Davies said, "I find it
interesting that the entire focus of each individual seemed
to be changing their sexual orientation. That was
very different from my focus." Well, then can someone
please tell me exactly what IS his focus? And more
importantly, what is his claim to the scores of gay Christian
men and women who come to him and his ministry in
hope of finding 'freedom' from homosexuality?

>Well, then can someone please tell me exactly
what IS his focus? <br><br>Sure. Money. The religious
right makes a lot of money by bashing gay people and
running these "ex-gay" operations. It's all about money

As Betty Bowers points out, since John Paulk
admits going to the gay bar at least twice, he should be
considered Ex-Ex-Ex-Ex-Ex-Gay. <br><br>Check out Betty
Bowers' ex-gay ministry B.A.S.H.: Baptists Are Saving
Homosexuals (www.bettybowers.com).

Bob Davies and other Exodus officials can't be
getting rich doing this. I don't think they're doing it
for the money. I just think they're so deceived into
believing that this is what God wants, demands and expects
of them. And they've invested so many years and such
a significant chuck of their lives walking in this
deception that the prospect of coming to terms with the
fact that they were/are wrong is simply much to
painful to consider. <br><br>The worst part by far is the
hurt and devastation they're causing to so many
innocent others who have had a personal encounter with a
loving God and have only wanted to walk obediently and
responsibly with Him. It makes my heart break. I can only
imagine what it must do to God's.

>Bob Davies and other Exodus officials can't
be getting rich doing this. I don't think they're
doing it for the money. <br><br>Not necessarily the
people at Exodus, but definitely the political religious
right operations, Focus on the "Family", American
"Family" Assn, etc., bash gay people because it's good for
fund raising. And they help support Exodus as part of
that.<br><br>Re Davies and Exodus, it beats working for a living.

You know raj, the sad reality is there is much
truth to your your point. If they did take a stand they
would most assuredly lose their financial base. But
what a horrendous crime that so many innocent people
must get hurt in the process. I guess it's the same
thing with the pharmaceutical companies with regard to
treatment for cancer, AIDS, etc. It's not cost efficient to
heal and erradicate disease. So they allow people to
die so they can get richer. A pretty sad state of
affairs, huh? May God help us all.

Ouch. I agree, Raj, for ex-gay leaders being paid
for promoting and practicing pseudo-therapy sure
beats having "real" jobs. Especially since many ex-gay
leaders don't hold any type of professional certification
or educational degree to practice their counseling
work. But to be fair, non-profit work doesn't usually
pay very well and I know many ex-gay leaders have
made many personal sacrifices for the ex-gay movement.
<br><br>Nyguy, it's pretty sad the way many organizations profit
off illness or hatred. In the past, Jerry Falwell and
Pat Robertson political and religious groups have
been revived by promoting the gay 'threat' to American
family values. Similarly, ex-gay groups have profitted
financially and in publicity by associating themselves with
political groups who's sincerity in helping gays is
questionable at best. <br><br>Just Ranting, <br><br>Norm!
(nojam75@...)

Honor, y'all!<br><br>My name is Jayelle. I am
writing an article about the ex-gay movement's recent
outreach to youth. (Will provide links upon request.) It
will be published in Watermark magazine in February.
(<a href=http://www.watermarkonline.com
target=new>http://www.watermarkonline.com</a>) My deadline is the 21st. A member
of this club
invited me, thinking it might help. He's right--it's
helping me understand already. I'm not ex-ex-gay, but I
am Bisexual and ex-Assemblies of God. I began
researching ex-gay ministries three years ago in an effort to
make peace with my past.<br><br>If any of you are
interested in helping me out, could you respond to this
message, or e me privately at jayelle7@...? I have
been looking for knowledgable pro-gay voices. Two
ex-gay ministers were very forthcoming, but getting a
response from pro-gay people who know what they're talking
about has been difficult. I am particularly interested
in hearing from teens, 20somethings, and people who
entered ex-gay ministries in their youth.<br><br>To give
you an idea of my approach, I'll show you this review
I wrote of the Map, a new CD-Rom for teens
sponsored by
Exodus:<br><br><a
href=http://www.themestream.com/gspd_browse/browse/view_article.gsp?c_id=267967
target=new>http://www.themestream.com/gspd_browse/browse/view_article.gsp?c_id=2\
67967</a><br><br>Also, if anyone can help me come up with a better title
than "Tug of Culture War," I'd appreciate
it!<br><br>This looks like a very interesting little club. Think
I'll stick around for a while. Thanks in advance for
your help!<br><br>Blessed be,<br>Jayelle