I would like to make some comments in disagreement with the
followup response to Avijit's post, which follows my response

First of all to say that "out of all present avalibale religious scriptures of
any
religion, the Holy Qur'an is the only scripture is more straight, direct and
logical."
is an affirmation of pure belief and subjective judgment, both of which are
inadmissible in any logical discussion intended as a rebuttal to someone else's
statements. Saying that holy book-X is better than holy book-Y or Z does not
make X right, neither does it prove the sublimeness of ALL religious books,
even granting the ranking that X>Y>Z etc. They may all be books of
irreleavnt and simplistic observations and preachings held in sublime
reverence only by blind believers, in that case it hardly matters that one is
"better" than the other.

All the statements (1) - (6) below are pure statements of belief except
(3) (Life is temporary) which is an obvious observation that does not
require deep thinking, everyone knows that, religious, non-religious,
atheist, skeptic what have you. Again, statements of pure belief and
obvious observations can hardly be relevant in a rebuttal which reqires
logic.

What is most amusing is that throughout the entire response frequent
reference is being made to expressions like "Quranic Logic",
"Allah's logic" etc. Now is the word "logic" being recoined here or
redefined here as: "A LOGIC is by definition a statement of God as found
in KORAN"? I would be curious which dictionary contains this definition
of logic that is being implied in this response.

Next, the statement: "Those of us who believe in Allah and Life after death
and those who do not have the same believe, have 50-50 probability of the
fact that there might be a life after death.." is even more amusing.

What does the construct "us" have 50-50 probability of the "fact" that there
might be life after death really mean? First of all, for a believer the
probability
is a certainty, 100%. For the non-believer it is 0%. For agnostcs, mild
believers
it is anywhere from 0-100%. Whatever the percentage, these percentages
indicate the various levels of BELIEF among various humans in life after death,
NOT THE ACTUAL PROBAILITY OF LIFE AFTER DEATH, because the
probabilty itself is a faith, whcih cannot be objectively proven or calculated
So any logic or argument that presupposes 50-50 (Or any other breakup)
probability of Life after death is a fallacious one, as argumemts should only
be based on objective truths or evidences as premises.

The rest of the response engages in what is essentially a rephrasing of the
famous but discredited Pascal's Wager. It assumes a 50-50 probability of life
after death (An invalid premise as I pointed out) and then advises one of the
merit of believing in it and the danger of not believing in it. It is amusing
that
this Pascal's wager having been debunked centuries ago still survives among
some in t he dawn of the third millenium. The other aspect of the fallacy of
pascal's wager is that even if it turns out that there is indeed life after
death,
it does not make religion-X true, since there are other religions (Y,Z..etc)
whcih
also postulate life after death. So using this "logic" to scare someone into
one's
favoured religion-X is nothing but a naive attempt to attract gullible souls
suffering
from indecision. This "wager" logic can be reused by any religion to justify the
authenticity of their religion. Sicne not all religions can be true so this
"wager" is
nothing but a hoax. Each religion has to invent their own version of Pascal's
Wager
to validate only their religion (To my knowledge that has not been done yet).
The
rest of the response again indulges in statements of belief and so is not
relevant as
a rebuttal and thus failed to objectively refute Avijit's views and logic.

No offense meant,
Masud

=================================================================
At 12:57 PM 11/29/00 EST, BRokonuddi@... wrote:
>>>>
Re: Mr. Avijit's posting on Miracles of Qur'an

For last few days I have gone through Mr. Avijits explanation on God, Qur'an
and other matters specifically on the Qur'an and God and Allah. My simple
understanding are as follows:

First of all, I like to mention here that out of all present avalibale
religious scriptures of any religion, the Holy Qur'an is the only scripture
is more straight, direct and logical. The message of the Holy Qur'an in a
nutshell is to make human to understand that

(1) There is no God but Allah & Prophet Muhammad is his Prophet.

(2) Not to associate any other god with Allah.

(3) This life is temporary

(4) Life and death is created to test human

(5) Each soul is to be question about their deeds in the Judgment Day

(6) Reward and punishment will be awarded to each soul according to their
deeds in this world.

(7) No one will bear the burden of another at the day of judgment

To do this Allh (swt) used many logics, unknown stories of previous
generations, previous prophets and what happened to them, explicit
description of creation, death, life and life after death etc.

Many of our members came forward and already explained thorough e-shomabesh
about the existence of God/Allah, and His attributes by many humanly
(relative) logics and according to the Holy Qur'an. So far I think it did
not work. You know what? This will never work. This not only true for you but
it is true for many of us that if Qura'nic Logic (Allah's Logic) unable to
convince anyone to accept Allah as the Only God, and the authenticity of
Qur'an then there is no way any other logic (relative logic) could play a
significant role to convince any one to believe in Allah, Qur'an & all other
aspects of religion.

Furthermore, I believe those of us who believe in Allah and Life after death
and those who do not have the same believe, have 50-50 probability of the
fact that there might be a life after death and where we all will be brought
back for our accountability of our deems in this world to Allh(swt).

Let's assume for the argument shake that Mr. Abijit is right and there is no
life after death and this life is only life. In that case both groups have
nothing to loose. and all of us will be in win win situation.

But consider this, if there is a life after death and everything will
happened according to Holy Qur'an then what? The people who believes in
Allah/God and Hereafter will be successful and the Group of Mr. Avijit will
be the real Loser as it mentioned in the Qur'an:

" And be on your guard against a day when one soul shall not avail another in
the least, neither shall intercession on its behalf be accepted, nor shall
any compensation be taken from it, nor shall they be helped [2:48]. O people!
Guard against (the punishment of) your Lord and dread the day when a father
shall not make any satisfaction for his son, nor shall the child be the maker
of any satisfaction for his father; surely the promise of Allah is true,
therefore let not this world's life deceive you, nor let the arch-deceiver
deceive you in respect of Allah [31:33]. Your relationship would not profit
you, nor your children, on the day of resurrection; He will decide between
you; and Allah sees what you do [60:3]. The day on which a friend shall not
avail (his) friend aught, nor shall they be helped [44:41]. And friend shall
not ask of friend. (though) they shall be made to see each ought. The guilty
one would fain redeem himself from the chastisement of that day be
(sacrificing) his children, and his wife and his brother, and the nearest of
his kinsfolk who gave him shelter, and all those that are on the earth,
(wishing) them (that) this might deliver. By no means! Surely it is a flaming
fire, dragging by the head. And We have made every man's actions to cling to
his neck, and We will bring forth to him on the resurrection day a Book which
he will find wide open: read your book; your own self is sufficient as a
reckoner against you this day." [17:13-14] .And We will set up a just balance
on the day of resurrection, so no soul shall be dealt with unjustly in the
least; and though there be the weight of a grain of mustard seed, (yet) will
We bring it, and sufficient are We to take accounts [21:47]. And every soul
shall be paid back in fully what it has done, and He knows best what they do.
[39:70]. Serve them what you like besides Him, Say: the losers surely are
those who shall have lost themselves and their families on the day of
resurrection; now surely that is the clear loss. They shall have covering of
fire over them and covering beneath them; with that Allah makes His servants
to fear; so be careful of (your duty to) Me, O My servants!" [39:15-16]."

As I have mentioned earlier, it is you who has to answer for your deeds
including your belief and disbelief and action. But believe me this is not
mandatory that you have to agree with the logic of the Holy Qur'an or Allah
as the only God. You have the freedom to accept and reject them all together.
It is your choice.

Wish you good luck.

Thanks and regards

Belal Rokonuddin


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