Dear Mr. Mahbubur Rahman,

1. You chalanged me by uttering a verses from Quran---
"'If all the humans and all the jinns
bonded together in order to produce
a Quran like this, they could never
produce anything like it, no matter
how much assistance they lent one
another.'" (Quran 17:88)

You dogmatically believe that nobody can produce a sura like what is stated
in Quran and when Muslims are challenged regarding their faith, they turn to
this claim as an irrefutable proof. But it's true for the orthodox muslims
only. There is a subtle but very real circularity for believing Muslims. The
circularity goes like this: If you're an orthodox Muslim, you believe that
the entire Qur'an is the very word of God, and is therefore inerrant. As an
implication of this, he or she also believes that there is no other writing
as eloquent as the Qur'an. Therefore, any attempt to "produce a Sura like
thereunto" must fail - thus verifying that the Qur'an is the very word of
God and inerrant. In fact, the verse following the challenge affirms the
impossibility of producing such a Sura (to the muslim), and threatens
disbelievers with the Fire whose fuel is men and stones:


But if ye cannot - and of a surety ye cannot - then fear the Fire whose fuel
is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith.
-- Qur'an 2.24 (trans. A. Yusuf Ali)

It is no surprise, then, that Muslims have found no sura equal to the
Qur'an. The surprise would be if they had, since even admitting the
possibility of a better Sura contradicts 2:24, which says "of a surety ye
cannot," hence being a sign of disbelief.

When I see a challenge like this it does not convince me of the Qur'an's
truth. It does rather the opposite, making me suspect that the message is
false. (By the way, I mean no offense to any Muslims who may read this. I
just couldn't think of any inoffensive way to say this.)

Anyway there are lot of people who are quite successful of producing Sura
simmilar to Quran. Among them there are Atheists, christian, Hindus or even
Muslims.
Here is one of the web-site (written by a christian) that produces sura like
Quran. If you have courage you may enter to see the proof---

http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/suralikeit/original/index.shtml

So you see Quran is not a miraculous book. Even an ordinary people who knows
arabic quite a bit, can try to produce suras simmilar to Quran who have some
inherent poetic capability. That's why Ali Dashti honestly stated that
"Neither the Qor'an's eloquence nor its moral and legal precepts are
miraculous."

I have clearly answered taken your challenge successfully. As you have
challenged me first, it's now my turn to challenge you regarding some valid
issue.

According to my knowledge there is no scientific miracles at all in Quran.
On the other hand this book is full of errors, scientific misconceptions and
contradictions. Ancient people erroneously believed that our Earth is flat
they thought that "it is not the Earth but the Sun moves". In Quran we see
the exactly the same picture that represent the idea of the people of that
time.Sura Ya-Sin(36:38), Az-Zumar(39:5), Ar-Ra'd (13:2), Al-Anbiya(21:33),
Ar-Rum(30:25), Fatir (35:41), An-Naml (27:61), Luqmân (31:10) and many other
suras clearly depicts that Sun moves round the earth and hence the Qur’an
challenges the established modern scientific facts.
If you still believe that Qur'an is unique, Qur'an is amazing, Qur'an is
miracle, Quran is scientific, Quran is accurate....... for you I put a
simple challenge here:

In Arabic "ARDA" means the Earth and "FALAK" is rotation/movement. Can you
show me any of the verses from Qur'an that contains these two words one
after another ? I'm sure that you cannot show because it is not stated
anywhere in the Qur'an. I give you my challenge is this regard : If u can
prove it, I'll beg apology to you for my previous misconception, and be
CONVERTED TO A MUSLIM at once.

Your 2nd argument:
======================
2.You said ---"My point is that observable evidence is not always necessary
to prove
>something. Just as science often relies on reasonable assumptions,
>religions around the world also have rational basis (some more than others
>to consider the existence of God; it is not ALL about blind faith! You may
>be thinking of asking me to show at least one rational basis for Muslims to
>believe in Allah. So, I will give you one. Our basis is the Quran and its
>authenticity...., "

Let me clarify you.....
If I ask a Muslim - How do you know that Muhammad is a prophet? His Answer:
Because the Qur'an says so, and How do you know that Quran says the truth?
...Oh! Because the Qur'an is the word of God. Ask them then: How do you know
that the Qur'an is God's word? Answer: Because Allah wrtten it in Quran and
also Muhammad says so.
You see, No body can break your circularity if you dont want to. And please
dont argue with , invisible matter-"dark matter"- in our universe to prove
the existance of God. This kind of statement comes from ignorance. Yet
ignorance is never an argument and cannot be considered evidence in any
meaningful sense. Most of the theists' evidence is of the god-of-the-gaps
nature, meaning that you try to poke holes in science and then stuff their
God into them. This is essentially an argument from ignorance: "Since we
don't know how this happened, it must mean God did it." Yet ignorance is
never an argument and cannot be considered evidence in any meaningful sense.


3rd Argument:
==============
You said...."You are mistaken that we cannot define God. God is omniscient,
>omnipotent, ever loving, most caring, extremely forgiving, the best of
>judges, and much, much more (I would never be able to complete). Through
>His characteristics He is understood."

In my previous posting I clearly refuted the imaginary charecteristics of
god like "all-power full", "omniscient","omnipotent", "all-loving" etc. in
alogical way....I hope you have read. So I will not repeat here the same
thing again and again !!!


4th Aargument:
==============
You said ".....BUT, no I cannot show you God. It is not in my capacity.
>Nevertheless, please don't be disappointed or disheartened at this. If you
>are willing to be a little patient, I guarantee that your desire will be
>fulfilled one day. YOU WILL MEET HIM!..."

It's your blind belief that I'll meet god oneday. Nobody will meet god
anytime because god does not exist. Yes! face the truth !!!! As I told it
b4, body becomes dust after death. Nothing survives death, except,
figuratively speaking, memories of the good and bad of one's life continued
in the progeny. So Ancestral worship and the associate ritual is mere
superstition. Heaven, hell, god. feresta, jin are only found in dogmatic
peoples' mind, religious scriptues and other primitive fairy tales.


Regards,
Avijit.


>From: "Mab Rahman" <nirobota@...>
>Reply-To: eshomabesh@egroups.com
>To: eshomabesh@egroups.com
>Subject: [eSHOMABESH] MR. AVIJIT, "YOU ASKED FOR IT!"
>Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 08:45:35
>
>Dear Mr. Avijit,
>
>Today I am writing this in response to the thoughts you shared with Mr.
>Shahid in one of your recent postings. Once again, there are some aspects
>that I feel need to be clarified to you. Also, I will be attempting to
>provide you with some answers that you have sought.
>
>I. You say that the concept of God is not a proven one. Please inform me,
>is the concept of God a disproved one? If not, then (from a critical
>perspective) neither "blind faith" nor "no faith" are correct or incorrect.
>Further, what is proof anyway? Is proof merely that, which is tangible and
>can be seen? If so, then I am afraid you are neither a believer in
>religion
>nor science.
>
>There are many scientific concepts that we readily accept or at least do
>not
>challenge, though they are based on assumptions and not solid, observable
>proofs. For instance, until recently scientists believed that most of the
>mass of our universe is in the stars. Now it is stated that there must be
>a
>predominant, invisible matter-"dark matter"- in our universe, responsible
>for most of the mass. Previously, scientists had expected that, based on
>the theory of gravity, stars on the edge of galaxies should revolve slower
>than those circling near the galactic bulges (where most of the larger
>stars
>are gathered). However, it's been discovered that the stars on the
>outskirts don't behave as expected. This has led to the assumption of the
>existence of dark matter. Would you challenge this? Can you challenge
>this?
>
>My point is that observable evidence is not always necessary to prove
>something. Just as science often relies on reasonable assumptions,
>religions around the world also have rational basis (some more than others)
>to consider the existence of God; it is not ALL about blind faith! You may
>be thinking of asking me to show at least one rational basis for Muslims to
>believe in Allah. So, I will give you one. Our basis is the Quran and its
>authenticity, which I will bring up in more detail in the latter part of
>this posting.
>
>II. You still seem flustered that WE are trying to impose God's
>law/Islamic
>law on YOUR humane society. I admit that many religions- Islam and
>Christianity to name only two- have many times been irrationally forced on
>communities, and that is a shame. I personally do not support religious
>coercion. However, please don't take it so personally. I assure you, NO
>ONE is forcing or obliging YOU to accept or follow any religion.
>Certainly,
>WE are not! So, if it is of any comfort, you may now free yourself from
>any
>unnecessary anxiety and feelings of insecurity.
>
>III. You have asked, "Where is your God? Is he real? Can you show me
>your
>God? Can you show me any evidence of your God?"
>
>Yes, God is real. He is everywhere. God's evidence that I can show you is
>the Quran. BUT, no I cannot show you God. It is not in my capacity.
>Nevertheless, please don't be disappointed or disheartened at this. If you
>are willing to be a little patient, I guarantee that your desire will be
>fulfilled one day. YOU WILL MEET HIM!
>
>None of this may satisfy you now, for you base all your arguments by
>postulating that there is no such entity as God. So, for now all I can do
>is to try to provide you solace by saying that surely, someday you will
>meet
>Him, but not this instant.
>
>IV. You are mistaken that we cannot define God. God is omniscient,
>omnipotent, ever loving, most caring, extremely forgiving, the best of
>judges, and much, much more (I would never be able to complete). Through
>His characteristics He is understood.
>
>OH! Forgive me, friend, did I tap a funny bone in you? I am sorry if the
>above definition appeared insanely ludicrous. How on Earth are you going
>to
>test these qualities of God and determine whether He is for real or not?
>Do
>not be dismayed. I won't let you down. You want to test? I will
>introduce
>you to the opportunity.
>
>You have often found it ridiculous that we, Muslims, claim the Quran to be
>the voice of God/Allah. And since you believe that we, blinded by faith,
>live in an illusion, you may want to take up the challenge placed by God.
>
>"Say, 'If all the humans and all the jinns
> bonded together in order to produce
> a Quran like this, they could never
> produce anything like it, no matter
> how much assistance they lent one
> another.'" (Quran 17:88)
>
>So, the test for you is, not to produce an entire Quran or a sura, but only
>a verse. I will not go into any detail on this. You will find all the
>requirements for the challenge in the following web site:
>
>http://www.submission.org/challenge.html
>
>Please do visit it. You have repeatedly labeled God to be imaginary. IF
>YOU ARE TRUE IN WHAT YOU CLAIM, THEN ACCEPT THE CHALLEGE, COMPLETE THE
>CHALLENGE, AND WIN THE CHALLENGE.
>
>Mr. Avijit, you were the one who wanted to set up a test. YOU ASKED FOR IT
>AND I HAVE LED YOU TO IT. I hope your eagerness will not become subjected
>to sudden vaporization.
>
>We will all be waiting with great expectations to see your final product.
>(Remember, you MUST visit the site in order to understand the challenge.)
>
>Allah-hafez
>
>Mahbubur Rahman
>
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