C17GMaster@... wrote :

>Are there any Cirth dictionaries? If you don't know what Cirth is, you
>probably can't find a dictionary on it. Anyway, I believe that Cirth was the
>Dwarven language.

Cirth is not a language. It is the name given by the Grey-Elves to their
writing system. Meaning "cutting" and translated by Pr. Tolkien in "The Lord
of the Rings" as _rune_. Cirth were "cut" into wood or stone.

The Language of the Dwarves is the Khuzdul.

Tolkien explains what are the _Cirth_ (sg. Certh) in "The Lord of the Rings",
read most the Appendices E & F of "The Lord of the Rings" if you're interested
in his invented languages.

Also, please do present yourself with your first message. Don't worry! Elfling
members are not interessed in any personal infos about you, but tell us what
*books* of Tolkien you have read, so we're would be able to help you better.
For exemple, in some foreign translation the Appendices have not been
translated at all.

If you have a name, sign your messages too. ;-)

Thanx

Edouard J. Kloczko




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>From: "Victor J. Ippoliti" <ippoliti@...>
>Reply-To: elfling@egroups.com
>To: "'elfling@egroups.com'" <elfling@egroups.com>
>Subject: [elfling] Re: I Carne Parma Nuumereeno
>Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 13:02:12 -0500
>

>
>Nai elen oiale siluva or lye.

Where did you get your _or_ from?

Greg - Tirno



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>From: C17GMaster@...
>Reply-To: elfling@egroups.com
>To: elfling@egroups.com
>Subject: [elfling] Cirth
>Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 19:52:00 EDT
>
>Are there any Cirth dictionaries? If you don't know what Cirth is, you
>probably can't find a dictionary on it. Anyway, I believe that Cirth was
>the
>Dwarven language.

The dwarven language was Khudzul. The Cirth are runes invented by the
woodland elves of Beleriand. The dwarves adopted these runes which can be
found on Balin's tomb in LotRI

I think there is an analogy with the english runes found in the hobbit

See the people of the M-E for details
>
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>
>
>
>
>


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>From: C17GMaster@...
>Reply-To: elfling@egroups.com
>To: elfling@egroups.com
>Subject: [elfling] All sorts of stuff!
>Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 19:32:45 EDT
>

> >Hmm...difficult. (BTW, you mean Third Age, not Fifth.)
>
> I thought that the fifth age began as Frodo sailed away. But of
>course, Quenya might not have been the dominant language by that point.

Frodo sailed away at the beginning of the fourth age which was the period
when quenya was the speech for official occasions in gondor It gradually
petered out (as latin which happens to be less beautifull)

>(which I found to mean something like "world-language" which fits
>perfectly).

For those of us who don't know, which website?
>
>Melanie - Using the same base word as melanin and Melanesia, and by
>checking
>an etymology of names in a dictionary, I found that melanie means 'black'
>or
>'dark.' _Mor_ is the best for this, so slap on _isse_ as the feminine
>ending

With adjectives such as _saura_ you get the masculin by adding -on (I think)
so _Sauron_. Take _iirima_ you get _IIrime_ feminin, add -e, H. Fauskanger
suddests the female version of Sauron would have been Saure.
Melanie means dark-skinned so you can take _morna_ and get Morne or take
dark maid, adding -wen: Morwen, which already exists in particular as the
wife of Hurin. Or form the compound dark-skinned _mornaskele_ ->ugly

>and result in _Morisse_.

probably best

>
>Melody - The dictionary etymology said that this comes from the musical
>term.
>_Lind_ + _isse_ = _Lindisse_.

Melody "song-like" so Lindeve, Velinde or Lindevel

>These names sound similar because a girl I happen to have a crush on at

All the best :)

>school is named Melanie but goes by the name of Melody. I blended the two
>and
>got _Morlindisse_. _Linmorisse_ and _Lindmoriesse_ don't flow as well.

to combine, Morvelin -sounds like it came out of a cemetery- or lindemore or
... your choice
alter Carmen which also means song and you get carmely?...
>
>I just thought it might be helpful to any Melanies or Melodies in the
>world...
> 				 -----Anthony-----

Gregory _Tirno_


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>From: "Victor J. Ippoliti" <ippoliti@...>
>Reply-To: elfling@egroups.com
>To: "'elfling@egroups.com'" <elfling@egroups.com>
>Subject: [elfling] My first Sentence!
>Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 15:18:58 -0500
>
>Aiya persons!
>
>Here's the first sentence I've ever tried in Quenya:
>Nai elen oiale syluva lye.
>May a star always shine on you.
>
>Probably many of you recognize this. The first part(Nai) is taken from
>Namarie, meaning may it be. Then comes elen, obviously star, from Frodo's
>greeting in The Fellowship of the Ring. Oiale, everlastingly, also from
>Namarie. Syluva-this is a composition taken from Frodo's
>Greeting(syle-shine on) and Namarie(uva-wilt). So I messed around with it
>and got syluva-on shine wilt. Finally, lye-you. Again taken from Namarie.
>Does anyone see any problems with the word-order? Structure? Word choice?
>If you do, please, tell me! Thanks.
>
>Nai elen oiale syluva lye!
>
>Alex
>

Well, to start with, "y" is always a consonant in Quenya ;-) I trust you
inteded to write _síluva_ (_siiluva_). Also, _lye_ is not an independent
word in Quenya, but an ending, usually denoting the subject of the verb it's
attached to. The independent form seems to be _le_, and it this case I think
allative _lenna_.
Thus _Nai elen síluva lenna oialë_.
(I place the adjective (or perhaps rather noun, see Helge's Ardalambion
article on the Namárie) last, as does Galadriel in Namárie)

                                     Andreas


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>From: "Jerome S. Colburn" <jscolbur@...>
>Reply-To: elfling@egroups.com
>To: elfling@egroups.com
>Subject: [elfling] Re: Mithril
>Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 19:56:04 -0500 (CDT)
>
>On Sun, 30 May 1999, BP Jonsson wrote:
>
> > One day in math class, while idly looking at a periodic system
> > table posted to the wall next to me it occurred to me that
> > mithril (the metal, not the word;) is not a product of JRRT's
> > imagination: mithril is simply the Sindarin word for Platinum!
> >
> > The properties of Mithril as described are close enough to
> > Platinum.
>
>However, platinum is almost twice as heavy as lead, whereas mithril (or,
>more precisely, the "metal" that "the Dwarves could make of it") is
>described as light in weight. (A platinum alloy that was "light" wouldn't
>contain very much platinum.)
>

Well if the rest of the alloy was weightless, you could have some one-third
Platinum and still not be heavier than iron! To reach the aluminium-like
weight I get the impression of in LotR you'd have to take about one eighth
platinum and seven eighths of that mysterious zero-weight metal.

                     Andreas


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>From: "Serguei Chubukov" <schubukov@...>
>Reply-To: elfling@egroups.com
>To: elfling@egroups.com
>Subject: [elfling] Re: Mithril & Trademarks
>Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 19:36:28 PDT
>
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>>During some research on platinum (because I was bored and wondered about
>>the
>>mithril/platinum conjecture), I found the following facts:
>>1 - Only gold and silver are easier to shape.
>> As I recall, mithril was easy to shape as well.
>>2 - It can be drawn into wires and hammered into thin sheets.
>> The many purposes of mithril...
>>3 - It does not corrode or tarnish.
>> Quite true with mithril.
>>4 - Difficult to dissolve or corrode.
>> I doubt anyone tried this on mithril...
>>5 - Can be found in mines in Peru.
>> Kazhad-Dum was based on a mithril mine, wasn't it?
>>
>> This isn't linguistically important, but I must concur with the
>>mithril=platinum conjecture.
>I've not idea about metals and stuff, but how about titanium? Isn't it
>mined
>in the Urals? (Geography and Chemistry, two things I was really bad at high
>school ;) ) Titanium and mithril are similar in my mind, although my
>dictionary says it's white ;)

Though not reaching the extreme weight of Platinum, Titanium aint very light
either ( about 4.5 kg/m^3), so it don't feel likely to me.
I believe that mithril is a pure "invention" by Tolkien, perhaps inspired by
actually occuring elements, but not being one of 'em in disguise nor caring
wether it's properities ar "possible" (=possible in our world. The Arda of
the LotR and the Quenta Silmarillion quite obviously don't follow quite the
same laws as our world.)

                                  Andreas

>About Elvish in trademarks and all, I think there is (or there was) a
>company called Silmarils (there was a symbol composed of three jewels,
>green, red and blue, if my memory doesn't fail (which usually does!)). I
>think that's the company that made a game called Metal Mutant, it's very
>old, like from the 90 or so, I don't remember seeing anything from them
>since then.
>Angasule
>
>
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C17GMaster@... wrote:

> Are there any Cirth dictionaries? If you don't know what Cirth is, you
> probably can't find a dictionary on it. Anyway, I believe that Cirth was
> the Dwarven language.

No, Cirth is an alphabet created by the Sindar Daeron in the first age, i
believe. The language of the Dwarves is called Khuzdul. There is an article
on it on Ardalambion...


Sune


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"Helge K. Fauskanger" wrote:
>
> > There is also the word _manen_ "how", attested in *The Peoples of
> > Middle-earth* ("How did the language of the eldar change ?"). This
> > seems to imply some kind of 'declension' for the interrogative
> > pronoun "man" --- though I would tend to believe that the standard
> > cases do not apply
>
> Why not? _Manen_ "how?" plainly includes the instrumental ending
> _-nen_, and we can assume that the word literally means something
> like "by what?"

To tell the truth, I hesitated for two reasons...

  - First of all, since the nominative "who?" is _man_, I would have
    expected something like *mannen for the instrumental, with a
    doubled /n/. Moreover, it seemed to me that there would be a clash
    with the dative/attributive case.

  - Besides that, "How?" is a generic questions, which has
    a rather wide meaning and can underlie several concepts.
    For instance:
     - With which means/instruments ?
       ("How to you write your name? -- With a pen / my left hand")
     - In what way ?
       ("How do you write your name? -- Well, its spells D.I.D.I.E.R")
     - In what manner ?
       ("How do you write your name? -- Quite quickly!")
     - In what state ?
       ("How is the water? -- cold")
     - And so on...

Instrumental works fine for the first example, but I am not sure that
it fits with all the other cases.

> An interrogative element _ma_ is mentioned in PM:357,
> note 18. It seems that it can take case endings. I would not hesitate
> to use words like the following:
>
> Locative _masse_ "where" (_masse ealye?_ "where are you?")
> Ablative _mallo_ "whence" (_mallo tulilye?_ Whence do you come?,
> Where do you come from?)
> Allative _manna_ "whither" (_manna lelyalye?_ Whither do you go?,
> Where (to) are you going?)
>
> However, I agree with Didier that this cannot be mechanically carried
> through all the way wholly uncritically. In particular, a dative _man_
> "for what? = why?" would clash with the established word for "who".
> So as the basis for "why" I would rather use the longer word _mana_
> "what" (hence _manan_).
>
> I speculate that _ma_ by itself can be used as a particle turning
> declarative sentences into questions (_naare Elda_ "she is an Elf"
> _ma naare Elda?_ "is she an Elf?") This is because the Quenya verb
> "to ask", _maquet-_, is literally "to MA-say", "to say MA".

I am afraid that it remains a mere guess, in the present state of
our knowledge. Your suggestion looks very good, though (We have a
great need for such interrogative pronouns).

Didier.
-- -

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Cirth isn't a language, it's a script, originally devised by Daeron to
represent the sounds of Sindarin.

Dwarves did use it, in a modified form, but whether to make inscriptions in
their own language or not, Tolkien is inconsistent.

Information on the Angerthas (tables of cirth values) is in Appendix E of
the Return of the King.

regards


EWB

-----Original Message-----
From: C17GMaster@... <C17GMaster@...>
To: elfling@egroups.com <elfling@egroups.com>
Date: 03 June 1999 03:19
Subject: [elfling] Cirth


>Are there any Cirth dictionaries? If you don't know what Cirth is, you
>probably can't find a dictionary on it. Anyway, I believe that Cirth was
the
>Dwarven language.



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>Also, perhaps in "Nai elen oiale syluva lye" I should make it "Nai elen
>oiale siluva OR lye." Looking through Ardalambion(no flattery intended!) I
>found "or-over." So now it reads:
>Nai elen oiale siluva or lye
>May a star ever shine over you.
>
>
>Nai elen oiale siluva or lye(the revised version)
>
>Alex

'Nai elen oio nunsiluvalye' has a more Quenyan feel to it IMO.


  B.Philip Jonsson  <bpj@...> <melroch@...>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
             Anant' avanaute quettalmar!               \ \
    __  ____ ____    _____________  ___ __   __ __     / /
    \ \/___ \\__ \  /___  _____/\ \\__ \\ \  \ \\ \   / /
    / /   / /  /  \    / /Melroch\ \_/ // /  / // /  / /
   / /___/ /_ / /\ \  / /Melarocco\_  // /__/ // /__/ /
  /_________//_/  \_\/ /Eowine__   / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
I neer Pityancalimeo\ \_____/ /ar/ /_atar Mercasso naan
~~~~~~~~~Cuinondil~~~\_______/~~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
|| Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda cuivie aiya! ||
"A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" (JRR Tolkien)



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I was thinking about various languages, few of which I know anything
about. I realized that they all seem to use the same basic 'system' of
writing words. An 's' at the end of a noun makes it plural. An 'ed' at the
end of a verb makes it past tense. Et cetera. There aren't very many suffixes.
	 In Quenya, everything is suffix-based. There is a singular form of a
noun as well as three types of plural, and several billion modifying
suffixes. There is a suffix for:
In or On something
My something
Your something (polite form)
Your something (casual form)
For something
With something
Near something
Belonging to something
Our (and your) something
Our (but not your) something

	 Quenya is a truly foreign language. Instead of going through a
dictionary and coming up with a translation for each word he found, Tolkien
was creative enough to actually form his own rules. I am impressed by his
amazing work.
	 Back to the real Earth, words seem to have easy, direct translations.
In Quenya, you have twenty pages or so explaining the way to use words. In
Spanish, however, you have a paragraph or two mentioning masculine and
feminine objects. I don't know much about the other languages as I am in
Middle School and took a rudimentary six-week course on Spanish.
	 I just felt like mentioning that. Quenya is a truly innovative
language that I have come to appreciate.

	 -----Anthony-----

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> I'm no expert and I suggest you check out Helge Fauskanger's site
ardalambion
> (earth-languages-of) ,I did and It's got some good stuff!!!!

I actually checked that a while ago, and could interpret "Earth-Language." I
guessed that it was plural possessive, but I am pathetic at suffixes. Does
that mean "Languages of Earth" or "Earth of [many] Languages?"

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I have a feeling that if we are going to apply Mithril to modern elements,
then I would say the Aluminium is the front runner.  It's processing would
have been tendious and "magical" in a pre-industrial environment, and the
properties of Mithril..........if you *really* twist it..........can be
applied to almost any metallic element.

Any idea???

Regards
Graeme Finsen






"Jerome S. Colburn" <jscolbur@...> on 06/02/99 11:56:04 AM

Please respond to elfling@egroups.com

To:   elfling@egroups.com
cc:    (bcc: Graeme J Finsen/AU/Schneider)
Subject:  [elfling] Re: Mithril




On Sun, 30 May 1999, BP Jonsson wrote:

> One day in math class, while idly looking at a periodic system
> table posted to the wall next to me it occurred to me that
> mithril (the metal, not the word;) is not a product of JRRT's
> imagination: mithril is simply the Sindarin word for Platinum!
>
> The properties of Mithril as described are close enough to
> Platinum.

However, platinum is almost twice as heavy as lead, whereas mithril (or,
more precisely, the "metal" that "the Dwarves could make of it") is
described as light in weight. (A platinum alloy that was "light" wouldn't
contain very much platinum.)

+------------------------------------------------------------------+
+ Jerome S. (Jeannette E. H.-va verno) Colburn                     +
+ jscolbur@...                                          +
+ Quettanyar lintanootinyallo nai ranuvar Quenyandilive hendennar! +
+------------------------------------------------------------------+



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> On Tue, 1 Jun 1999, Serguei Chubukov wrote:
>
> > About Elvish in trademarks and all, I think there is (or there was) a
> > company called Silmarils
>

And on Thu, 3 Jun 1999, Vicentini Emanuele wrote:

>  This made me recall about Mithril Miniatures, a company producing
> 32mm pewter figurines on Middle-earth. I should have thought about it
> earlier :-)

And here in Champaign, IL, we had for many years a "Moria Silver and Gold
Co.", but they pronounced it /ma-'rai-a/ (as in Carey).

Come to think of it, I just remembered that back in about 1972 or 1973,
when pocket calculators were still a novelty, my father picked one up
whose brand name was "Melcor".

+------------------------------------------------------------------+
+ Jerome S. (Jeannette E. H.-va verno) Colburn                     +
+ jscolbur@...                                          +
+ Quettanyar lintanootinyallo nai ranuvar Quenyandilive hendennar! +
+------------------------------------------------------------------+


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I beg everyone's pardon, and especially Mrs. Salo's, for spending more
bandwidth on this thread, especially since Rich Alderson has already
handled the purely technical linguistic point, but claims have been made
that should be answered in the same forum in which they were made, lest
they pass as unanswerable because an answer was forbidden.

To Lisa Star's assertion that

> > > Tolkien went through a long
> > > period of not being big a fan of Jews, and seems to have been
> > > struggling with the concept that they were his god's (first)
> > > chosen people, according to his sacred scriptures.

she has not produced any evidence in the form of quotations from letters
or interviews in which JRRT made such statements in relation to the
Primary World. I have not seen any such evidence in Letters, whereas I
do see evidence for the contrary there (nos. 29 and 30 in particular).

Conjectures based on the characters and situations in his works (such as
Mi^m =? Wagner's Mime) are just those, conjectures, without some Primary
World evidence to back them up.

Without, for example, Letters no. 176, in which JRRT says, "I do think
of the 'Dwarves' like Jews", we would not be able to go beyond noting
that Khuzdul looks like a Semitic language.

> **It is clear to me that he changed his mind about the right way to
> behave in the middle of writing the book.

In fact the Gimli - Galadriel scene was from the first draft
substantially as it is in the final work (ToI, chs. 12 and 13). The
values that scene expresses and the lessons it teaches are already
found in The Hobbit.

> **The Valar could not possibly have known anything because they were
> figments of Tolkien's imagination.

Excuse my synecdoche. I should have said, "The Valar are depicted
as knowing that they were subjects and creatures of Ilu/vatar".

  'Who was Ilu/vatar?' said Eriol. 'Was he of the Gods?'
  'Nay,' said Ru/mil, 'that he was not, for he made them. Ilu/vatar is
  the Lord for Always who dwells beyond the world; who made it and is
  not of it or in it, but loves it.' -- BoLT, p. 49.

That is, the universe Tolkien imagined is a monotheistic one, even when
he used the word "Gods" for the Valar. (In paganisms, by contrast, the
gods are not said to be creatures of a transcendent creator, though
they may be said to be descendents or subjects of other beings of the
same kind as themselves.)

Fair enough? That's all for me if it's all for you.

+------------------------------------------------------------------+
+ Jerome S. (Jeannette E. H.-va verno) Colburn                     +
+ jscolbur@...                                          +
+ Quettanyar lintanootinyallo nai ranuvar Quenyandilive hendennar! +
+------------------------------------------------------------------+




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> > I'm no expert and I suggest you check out Helge Fauskanger's site
> > ardalambion
> > (earth-languages-of) ,I did and It's got some good stuff!!!!
>
>I actually checked that a while ago, and could interpret  "Earth-Language."
>I
>guessed that it was plural possessive

I don't think so the earth has no clame on the languages spoken in it

>, but I am pathetic at suffixes. Does
>that mean "Languages of Earth" or "Earth of [many] Languages?"
>

....Not quite (I think). Having read the Silmarillion, you will know it's
short for Quenta Silmarillion: (a) History of the Silmarils
(_Silmarilli_ in Quenya) or Of the Silmarilli for short. The chapters are
all of this form: "Of the Maiar" for instance (I hope anyway, I don't have
the book handy (being at college "wasting" my midday break on the internet))
so it would probably become in Quenya _Maiarion_.

I believe Helge made the title in the same way. He formed the compound
_Arda-Lambe_, plural _Ardalambi_ earth languages, add the GENETIVE plural
ending _-on_ and get _Ardalambion_ "of the earth-languages". Helge, forgive
(and correct) me if I'm wrong. _Lambi i Ardo_ gives "languages of the
earth", and _Arda Lambelion_ "Earth of many languages" partitive plural
genetive.

So having drawn on and double-checked all my extensive writing I close and
wish you a happy weekend - which I can't be bothered to translate.

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> >Also, perhaps in "Nai elen oiale syluva lye" I should make it "Nai elen
> >oiale siluva OR lye." Looking through Ardalambion(no flattery intended!)
>I
> >found "or-over." So now it reads:
> >Nai elen oiale siluva or lye
> >May a star ever shine over you.
> >
> >
> >Nai elen oiale siluva or lye(the revised version)
> >
> >Alex
>
>'Nai elen oio nunsiluvalye' has a more Quenyan feel to it IMO.
>
>
>  B.Philip Jonsson  <bpj@...> <melroch@...>

Wait a sec, I'm getting confused. _oio_ is just a root meaning "ever",  so
although you can use it as a word, there's no point in doing so when we've
got a ready-made word _oiale_.

nunsiluvalye????? you-shall-shine-west? The subject is Elen which is just
fine where it is. In english we have I-Me subject-object, unfortunately we
have you-you and there is no distinction. In Quenya there is
_-lye_-_elye_-_tye_, subject-emphatic subject-object.

In _Nai Elen siluva or tye oiale_ or _Nai Elen siluva tyenna oiale_ which is
my version (and being rather self-centered, I prefer),the you is definitely
not a subject (thou) but an object (thee)

_________________Greg - Tirno________________________________________

>
>
>


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"G.Dyke" wrote:
>
> The dwarven language was Khudzul. The Cirth are runes invented by
> the woodland elves of Beleriand. The dwarves adopted these runes
> which can be found on Balin's tomb in LotRI

Balin's tombstone illustrates a mode known as 'Angerthas Moria'.
There was also a slightly different variant, 'Angerthas Erebor',
described in Appendix E.

> I think there is an analogy with the english runes found in the
> hobbit.

The term 'runes' originally applied to a writing system used by
the Germano-Scandinavian peoples (a rather wide area including the
Goth, Norse and Icelandic folks). It was believed to be the invention
(or rather the discovery) of the god Odin when he was hanged in the
sacred tree Yggdrasil (cf. 'Havamal' in the set of text known
as the 'Poetic Eddas').

This alphabet is also known as 'futhark' -- so named after its six
first letters. Later it was also used in England, and the 'runes'
exemplified in _The Hobbit_ illustrate a late Anglo-Saxon version.

Tolkien devised his own 'cirth' alphabet after this futhark --
i.e. the design of the letters is very similar, but the underlying
phonology is entirely different. The mapping was arbitrary in
the futhark, whereas the cirth are regularly organized.

Besides that, a certain Wulfila translated the Bible into Gothic
at the beginning of the medieval era. For that specific purpose he
designed a cursive alphabet derived from the runes and a few greek
letters (he thought that an alphabet that looked familiar to the
readers would have more chance to spread than, say, a purely greek
or latin transcription).

In _The Treason of Isengard_, C. Tolkien presents the 'elvish runes'
as his father conceived them around 1940. Though the system is
already quite well organized, it differs notably from the later
alphabet published in _The Lord of The Rings_. This appendix
illustrates a cursive form, and in my opinion it shows a certain
resemblance to Wulfila's alphabet. Any opinion on this point?

Appendix E in _The Lord of the Rings_ clearly states that the Elves
did not use any cursive version for the cirth. On the other hand,
the sentence is rather obscure and could imply that the Dwarves,
conversely, had such a cursive version.

That's my understanding, anyway... Since we now know that Tolkien
had invented a cursive form long ago, it would be nice to know if
he ever updated it for the 'modern' version of the cirth, wouldn't
it? [*]

"Edward Beattie" wrote:
>
> Dwarves did use it, in a modified form, but whether to make
> inscriptions in their own language or not, Tolkien is inconsistent.

In _The People of Middle-earth_, there's a justification for
such a short inscription on a tombstone. The use of Khuzdul
is not inconsistent and may be explained. The only real
inconsistencies are:
   - The sentence in English (of course the real inscription
     was conceivably written in Westron).
   - The Norse names 'Fundin' and 'Balin', taken from the Voluspa,
     should have been replaced by their Westron equivalent (remember
     that Dwarves never give their real names, so names in Khuzdul are
     out of question).

Didier.
-- -
[*] BTW, I know that someone in this list has been involved in the
     design of a cursive cirth TrueType font for the Dwarves (just
     guess who!). Perhaps he could tell us more about it? Unfortunately
     the font is commercial :(
-- -

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I have introduced myself a while back (I think). I didn't, however, mention
which books I've read. I finished the Hobbit, and am in the last five or six
chapters of LotR #3. I just need an inspiration to finish it. I have also
read a book (not by Tolkien) that was called something like "A Tolkien
Bestiary." I do recall that it was a bestiary, but I don't remember the exact
title.
	 As for the question about Cirth, I think I know where I messed up. I
found Dan Smith's fantasy fonts and one (actually, six) were Cirth Erebor. I
think that I'm straightened out with the following analogy:

Tengwar is to Quenya as Cirth is to Khuzdul as alphabet is to English.

Is this right?

-----Anthony-----

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Anthony wrote:
> Quenya is a truly foreign language.
> Instead of going through a dictionary and coming up with a
> translation for each word he found, Tolkien was creative enough to
> actually form his own rules. I am impressed by his amazing work.

Imaginary languages built on a word-per-word translation (i.e. where
a given English word matches with exactly one word in the invented
language) are sometimes referred as "relexification", in short
'relex', because they are directly derived from the original language
and share the same lexical blocks and grammatical rules. One could
argue that they are not really *languages*, but rather some kind of
*codes*.

Quoting your own words, Tolkien indeed invented 'true foreign
languages'. Quenya, Sindarin, etc. have their own grammar and
vocabularies, with some specific features that make them quite
different from 'natural' languages such French, English or
Spanish.

Tolkien really achieved a great piece of art. He did this alone
(he had no friend involved in such a weird hobby). Believe me, more
that 2500 words (for Quenya) with etymological details and technical
considerations, this is really a good result, especially when you are
doing it for your own amusement and pleasure! Moreover he did it in a
very professional way (being himself a philologist, he constructed
his languages as seriously as possible).

> Back to the real Earth, words seem to have easy, direct translations.
> In Quenya, you have twenty pages or so explaining the way to use
> words. In Spanish, however, you have a paragraph or two mentioning
> masculine and feminine objects.

A full Quenya dictionary would no be so different from a Spanish one
(or whatever real language). The problem is that Tolkien never wrote
such dictionaries, but rather short lexicons, which are more limited
in scope. To some extents, they are nearer to a Traveller's Guide,
that gives only one alternative without describing all the nuances.
But the complexity is still there, just hidden behind the papers ;-)

As for the grammar, Quenya may look quite complex to you (compared
to Spanish, for instance), but this is certainly due to the fact that
it is based on inflections (showing cases and declensions). However,
a grammar for Ancient Greek or Latin is not simpler.

> I don't know much about the other languages as I am in Middle School
> and took a rudimentary six-week course on Spanish.
> I just felt like mentioning that. Quenya is a truly innovative
> language that I have come to appreciate.

I am not sure that this statement is really right -- I mean,
Tolkien's languages are not *so* imaginative with respect
to other natural or constructed languages, and IMHO they are
even quite weak sometimes -- but well, I am glad that you like
them as we all do here in this list :-)

Didier.
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> >Nai elen oiale syluva lye!

[Andreas Johansson:]
> Well, to start with, "y" is always a consonant in Quenya ;-) I trust you
inteded to write _síluva_ (_siiluva_). Also, _lye_ is not an independent
word in Quenya, but an ending, usually denoting the subject of the verb
it's attached to.

** Actually _lye_ does occur in one early document, but I agree that in
LotR-style Quenya, it almost certainly cannot be valid. It would be the
sole word to begin in _ly_ in the entire known vocabulary.

>The independent form seems to be _le_, and it this case I think > allative
_lenna_.

** Yes. I agree that "lye" would in all likelihood appear as _le_ in
LotR-style Quenya. The late essay "Quendi and Eldar" actually mentions _le_
as a 2. person form occurring already in Primitive Quendian; such a form
would not be affected by any of the soundshifts that occurred between PQ
and Quenya.

> Thus _Nai elen síluva lenna oialë_.

** _Siluva_ with a short vowel (it is lengthened in _siila_ "shines, is
shining" only because this is a "continuative" form); otherwise I agree
that this is the best rendering. But instead of _oiale_ one could simply
say _oi_, "ever".

- Helge Fauskanger



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Hmm...

Okay, I think I got it...:-)

One little thing. What is an "aorist" form?

Nai elen sile tyenna
(better?)

Alex
-----Original Message-----
From: G_Dyke@... [SMTP:G_Dyke@...]
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 6:04 AM
To: elfling@eGroups.com
Subject: [elfling] Re: My first Sentence!

  <01beac42.18381460.ippolit-@...> wrote:
Original Article: http://www.egroups.com/group/elfling/?start=821
> Aiya persons!
>
> Here's the first sentence I've ever tried in Quenya:
> Nai elen oiale syluva lye.
> May a star always shine on you.
>
> Probably many of you recognize this. The first part(Nai) is taken from
> Namarie, meaning may it be.

OK so far

> Then comes elen, obviously star, from Frodo's
> greeting in The Fellowship of the Ring.

and again

>Oiale, everlastingly, also from

and again

> Namarie. Syluva-this is a composition taken from Frodo's
> Greeting(syle-shine on) and Namarie(uva-wilt). So I messed around with it
> and got syluva-on shine wilt. Finally, lye-you:
>again taken from Namarie

shine _sil_ and not _siil_ which I think is the meaning of your _syle_ and
it was "shine upon" the "upon" being the "'" part of _luumenn'_ short for
_luumenna_ the allative case of _luume_ hour, time
There is an "aorist" form in quenya that denotes a "timeless truth" made by
adding -e in wich case you would strike out the _oiale_ or as you wrote
siluva -uva being the future. "on you would be" _tyenna_ you-upon, _tye_
being you as an object and -nna the allative form of the object- note _nin_
Namarie _ni_ me and -n the dative form.

so _Nai elen sile tyenna_ May a star shine on you


> Does anyone see any problems with the word-order? Structure? Word choice?
> If you do, please, tell me! Thanks.

I'm no expert and I suggest you check out Helge Fauskanger's site
ardalambion (earth-languages-of) ,I did and It's got some good stuff!!!!
WWW.uib.no/people/hnohf
>
> Nai elen oiale syluva lye!
>
> Alex
>


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Aiya queti!

Seeing as I'm Roman Catholic, I thought it'd be pretty cool to translate
the "Hail Mary" into Quenya. So, here goes. BTW, if anyone out there has a
problem with Marian devotions, just think of this as an exercise in
translating.

Aiya -------, aque valie,     i    Eru na ----  tye.   aman   carme lye
-----     nissi,    ar     aman   na lya lapse,

Hail  Mary, full of Grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among
women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb,

--------. Arie  -------, Eruammie,       quetanaeru men   liemancarulce  si
     ar   --   i   lume  firine
Jesus. Holy Mary, mother of God, pray          for us    sinners,
        now and at the hour   of our death.



Alright, here's how I got it.  Aiya, pretty obvious, same for aque, i eru,
ecc. However, valie=vald(from The Book of Lost Tales) means grace. I put
-ie and hoped it means the same as masculine -ion. So we get "full of
grace." Afterwards comes Eruammie. Same here, except that I have Eru-God,
amme-mother, with -ie for "of."  Quetanaeru I made from "quet-speak,"
"ana-before," and "eru-God." Here I'm going to digress into some Catholic
theology, so please excuse me. When we ask Mary to pray for us, we are
actually asking her to intercede to God for us. It is different than the
intercession of Christ, in that she cannot do anything of her own power
except present our requests before God. And finally
"liemancarulce-sinners." Literally, this means "people-who-do-evil."

Again, comments are requested.

Nai elen silve tyenna.

Alex

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Could you explain the revision, especially "nunsiluvalye?"

Temporarily out of order
(Now totally confused)

Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: BP Jonsson [SMTP:bpj@...]
Sent: Thursday, June 03, 1999 3:56 AM
To: elfling@egroups.com
Cc: 'elfling@egroups.com'
Subject: [elfling] Re: Greetings!

>Also, perhaps in "Nai elen oiale syluva lye" I should make it "Nai elen
>oiale siluva OR lye." Looking through Ardalambion(no flattery intended!) I
>found "or-over." So now it reads:
>Nai elen oiale siluva or lye
>May a star ever shine over you.
>
>
>Nai elen oiale siluva or lye(the revised version)
>
>Alex

'Nai elen oio nunsiluvalye' has a more Quenyan feel to it IMO.


  B.Philip Jonsson  <bpj@...> <melroch@...>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
             Anant' avanaute quettalmar!               \ \
    __  ____ ____    _____________  ___ __   __ __     / /
    \ \/___ \\__ \  /___  _____/\ \\__ \\ \  \ \\ \   / /
    / /   / /  /  \    / /Melroch\ \_/ // /  / // /  / /
   / /___/ /_ / /\ \  / /Melarocco\_  // /__/ // /__/ /
  /_________//_/  \_\/ /Eowine__   / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
I neer Pityancalimeo\ \_____/ /ar/ /_atar Mercasso naan
~~~~~~~~~Cuinondil~~~\_______/~~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
|| Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda cuivie aiya! ||
"A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" (JRR Tolkien)



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That comes from move.to/ardalambion. It is the site of Helge
Fauskanger(sp?), about Middle-earth languages. I found it in the Quenya
Corpus Wordlist.

Temporarily out of order

Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: G.Dyke [SMTP:g_dyke@...]
Sent: Thursday, June 03, 1999 6:12 AM
To: elfling@egroups.com
Subject: [elfling] Re: May a star always shine on you

>From: "Victor J. Ippoliti" <ippoliti@...>
>Reply-To: elfling@egroups.com
>To: "'elfling@egroups.com'" <elfling@egroups.com>
>Subject: [elfling] Re: I Carne Parma Nuumereeno
>Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 13:02:12 -0500
>

>
>Nai elen oiale siluva or lye.

Where did you get your _or_ from?

Greg - Tirno



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Aiya queti!

Here's another try at a sentence.

Anart mi hendinya morna.

Anart="sun is(-t=is)." mi="in." Hendinya="eyes(hendi)-my(nya)." Morna="dark."

Temporarily out of order

Alex

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>>From: "Victor J. Ippoliti" <ippoliti@...>
>>Reply-To: elfling@egroups.com
>>To: "'elfling@egroups.com'" <elfling@egroups.com>
>>Subject: [elfling] My first Sentence!
>>Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 15:18:58 -0500
>>
>>Aiya persons!
>>
>>Here's the first sentence I've ever tried in Quenya:
>>Nai elen oiale syluva lye.
>>May a star always shine on you.
>>
>>Probably many of you recognize this. The first part(Nai) is taken from
>>Namarie, meaning may it be. Then comes elen, obviously star, from Frodo's
>>greeting in The Fellowship of the Ring. Oiale, everlastingly, also from
>>Namarie. Syluva-this is a composition taken from Frodo's
>>Greeting(syle-shine on) and Namarie(uva-wilt). So I messed around with it
>>and got syluva-on shine wilt. Finally, lye-you. Again taken from Namarie.
>>Does anyone see any problems with the word-order? Structure? Word choice?
>>If you do, please, tell me! Thanks.
>>
>>Nai elen oiale syluva lye!
>>
>>Alex
>>
>
>Well, to start with, "y" is always a consonant in Quenya ;-) I trust you
>inteded to write _síluva_ (_siiluva_). Also, _lye_ is not an independent
>word in Quenya, but an ending, usually denoting the subject of the verb
>it's
>attached to. The independent form seems to be _le_, and it this case I
>think
>allative _lenna_.
>Thus _Nai elen síluva lenna oialë_.
>(I place the adjective (or perhaps rather noun, see Helge's Ardalambion
>article on the Namárie) last, as does Galadriel in Namárie)
>
>                                    Andreas

Seems I'm not that bright myself ;-)
Should've been _siluva_ with short "i" everywere.
Also, I've seen people using _tyenna_ instead of _lenna_. _Tyenna_ is more
familiar, while _lenna_ is formal/courteous. Perhaps _tyenna_ also is
singular only, while _lenna_ probably goes for both sg and pl.

_Nai elen siluva lenna oialë_

                Andreas


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>From: C17GMaster@...
>Reply-To: elfling@egroups.com
>To: elfling@egroups.com
>Subject: [elfling] Re: Cirth
>Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 20:00:40 EDT
>
>I have introduced myself a while back (I think). I didn't, however, mention
>which books I've read. I finished the Hobbit, and am in the last five or
>six
>chapters of LotR #3. I just need an inspiration to finish it. I have also
>read a book (not by Tolkien) that was called something like "A Tolkien
>Bestiary." I do recall that it was a bestiary, but I don't remember the
>exact
>title.
> As for the question about Cirth, I think I know where I messed up. I
>found Dan Smith's fantasy fonts and one (actually, six) were Cirth Erebor.
>I
>think that I'm straightened out with the following analogy:
>
>Tengwar is to Quenya as Cirth is to Khuzdul as alphabet is to English.
>
>Is this right?
>
>-----Anthony-----
>

Except that it should finish "as the Latin alphabeth is to English". Both
the Tengwar and the Cirth are alphabets. If we want to use "alphabet" as the
name of a particular set of characters, it ought to be the greek one, since
the very name alphabeth is derived from _alpha-beta_ "A-B", a compound of
the names of the fisrt two greek letters.

                       Andreas


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Generally, I try to be pretty easygoing about matters of topic on
Elfling. All I usually send back as off-topic are messages that pretty
clearly are private, directed to another Elfling member, and have
mistakenly been posted to the group.

	 I sensed trouble coming, however, with the religion topic, and I
don't think I was wrong. What I did was set a rule for myself that any post
not containing something clearly germane to linguistics would not be posted
(aside from the usual rules about flaming). That largely succeeded in
keeping the talk below critical levels.

	 I intend to keep to that rule, and in future invoke it when I start
getting worried notes from subscribers about a non-linguistic topic (as I
have on this one). I think this is better than either "declaring a topic
closed" or allowing a free-for-all to start. From now on, I'll post a small
warning that a topic is veering toward dangerous territory.

	 Please do not use the "ObLinguistics" tactic (that is, trying to
slide an inflammatory off-topic post onto the group by adding a linguistic
tidbit at the end that isn't related to the post in general). The post will
be rejected with a suggestion that the linguistic tidbit be posted on its
own.

	 For the record: Elfling is non-sectarian. Its moderator is
agnostic, and has never in her life been any flavor of Christian. Open
proselytization is rude and off-topic and will cause a post to be rejected.
Use of religious texts for translation into one of Tolkien's languages is
not generally considered proselytization, and is perfectly fine on Elfling
(although I hope we can all avoid using religious texts as sticks to beat
each other with, because that *will* raise a red flag).

	 One more thing: I am a little concerned about some "last-word-itis"
which seems to be infecting Elfling. I wanted to make it clear that I do
not consider what a post is responding to when I make moderation decisions.
If a post fails my topicality test on a sensitive subject, it will be
rejected, no matter what it is responding to, and no matter how motivated
the poster is to continue (or "end") the discussion. Elfling is not a
soapbox, and I do not feel I am required to allow everyone to "get their
licks in" on non-linguistic topics.

	 I hope this seems equitable to everyone. As always, my emailbox is
open to questions, suggestions, or criticism.

Dorothea

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dorothea Salo       <*>           |"He querido mas vivir en mi peque~a casa,
dorothea@...             |exenta, y se~ora, que no en sus ricos
http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea |palacios, sojuzgada y cativa."_Celestina_



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