--- Boris Shapiro <elenhil@...> wrote:

> Aiya!

**Alayambo!!

> The largest Quenya-English dictionary I've ever seen is located on
> the Tynntangial page
> (http://www.dragons-inn.org/Ifreann/tynntangial.html) -
> although relatively old (without "Morgoth's Ring" and so on), it's
> reaching
> almost 2500 words, looking reliable - at least each word i followed
> by a link to it's source and a P-E root.

**There is some mistake here.  The list which is linked from the page
you have given does not include P-E roots.  It isn't a very good list
anyway, as it is rather out of date.  A better one is at:

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/4101/e-q.html

**If I have mistyped that, you can find the correct url on my webpage
(see sigline for link) for two versions of that list, plus a version of
the one mentioned above.

**I still don't know of any good Sindarin list though. If anyone does,
I would like to know about it.

> Namaarie! S.Y., Elenhil Laiquendo

** Lisa Star

===

** Lisa Star
--not an employee of any secret government agency-- N.P.
** LisaStar at earthling dot net
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/9902

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In The Lost Road, in the Quenta Silmarillion Chapter 10, para. 128 (p.
302 paperback, 275 harback), is written:

    "Thus it was that Men called King Felagund, whom they met first of all
the Noldor, Gnome or Wisdom; * and after him they named his race the Wise,
whom we call the Gnomes."
	 [the note reads:] "*It is recorded that the word in the ancient
speech of these Men, which they afterwards forsook in Beleriand for the
tongue of the Gnomes, so that it is now mostly forgotten, was Widris.
(quoth Pengolod & AElfwine)."

      To this Christopher Tolkien, I think quite correctly notes that "it
can hardly be doubted that this is to be related to the Indo-European stem
seen..... in.... Greek _idein_ (from _*widein_) 'to see'...."
      What he doesn't say is that there actually exists an adjective _idris_
in Greek meaning "experienced, knowing, skilful", with a verbal infinitive
"knowing how (to)...".  In the dialectal (non-Attic) forms of Greek that
had preserved initial w- (spelled with the F-shaped 'digamma') the form of
this word would be _widris_.  The stem is also widris- (e.g., genitive
*widrisos), but since medial -s- dropped out in Greek, the actual Greek
genitive is (w)idrios.
     Since, other than the loss of initial w- in Attic, no important Greek
changes would have affected this word, _widris_ could be quite old, even
Pre-Hellenic or Proto-Indo-European.  I have not however been able to find
more than one cognate, Old Norse _vitr_ "wise", where the -r is part of the
root (e.g. accusative singular masculine _vitran_).  This could be traced
to either a Proto-Germanic *witraz or *witriz, but given the Greek cognate,
the probable form is *witriz which would be a direct transformation of
*widris.
     "Gnome" is itself from Greek, derived from the _other_ Indo-European
root for "knowing", GNO (cf. English _know_ with _wit_ or _wise_).  In
Greek _gnome_ means "mind, though, judgment, intelligence, purpose, will"
and several other things.

    In later developments of this passage, "Widris" was metamorphosed into
"Vidri" before being wholly altered to So^mar "Wisdom" and Samu^ri "Wise".
This is not Indo-European, nor in any other language that I am well
acquainted with. (There is a Hebrew root ShMR 'watch, guard, preserve',
with derivatives such as Shomer "watchman" and Shamur "watching, guarding,
preservation"; but the semantic and phonetic distance is such that I am not
convinced that Tolkien had these in mind.)  With their triliteral
root-structure and variable vowels, this was perhaps intended as a relative
of Adunaic, though the structure does not correspond to that of Adunaic in
detail.  It was, however, altered once again to Noom "Wisdom" and Noomin
"the Wise", which are both obviously reminiscent of "Gnome" and could
conceivably be related (e.g., as borrowings from Avarin or Nandorin) to the
elvish *ngolmee "wisdom, knowledge", *ngolmoo "wise person", which of
course are themselves similar to "Gnome".


/\     WISTR LAG WIGS RAIHTS
\/            WRAIQS NU IST                               <> David Salo
<dsalo@...> <>



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Aiya!


>>The largest Quenya-English dictionary I've ever seen is located on the
>>Tynntangial page (http://www.dragons-inn.org/Ifreann/tynntangial.html) -
>>although relatively old (without "Morgoth's Ring" and so on), it's
>reaching
>>almost 2500 words, looking reliable - at least each word i followed by a
>>link to it's source and a P-E root.
>>I would like to hear your opinion on it's quality.
>It is a list, mixing so many thging as to be absolutly unrealiable.

I consider the "wordlist" only, having little interest of it's framing.

>It has no indication as if the word is a noun or a verb, and has very
"N" for a noun, "V" for a verb etc. - isn't it enough for indication?

>strange defginition like : Yeloimu, Morgoth when cold {DYELE} (BOLT) ; or
>aile X beach (SV-1931). How many readers knwos what SV-1931 means? Or
As for abbreviations, "SV-1931" is not worse than "WJ" or "RGEO" - IMHO such
abb-s. are familiar for those who are dealing with Middle-earth languages.
Moreover, it's not heaped: there are two columns - for words and for their
translations.
Personally I don't understand only one thing: what does a letter "X" (or
"H") placed after a word means.

>This list, it can hardly be called a dictionnary, is located on a site wich
>pretends to create a Secondary Wolrd and it does not even explain that it
>is taken from Tolkien's books!
Yes, I don't like this site too, but let us be unbiassed: is Qenya/Quenya
mixing the only mistake? Are there false links, ungrounded word-inventions,
inexact interpretations?

>I can hardly recommend its use. It is unrealble.

Thank you for your answer.

>EJK
Namaarie! S.Y., Elenhil Laiquendo



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Aiya!

>> The largest Quenya-English dictionary I've ever seen is located on
>> the Tynntangial page
>> (http://www.dragons-inn.org/Ifreann/tynntangial.html) -
>> although relatively old (without "Morgoth's Ring" and so on), it's
>> reaching
>> almost 2500 words, looking reliable - at least each word i followed
>> by a link to it's source and a P-E root.
>**There is some mistake here.  The list which is linked from the page
>you have given does not include P-E roots.
Then, please, enlighten me: what is {magh}, given next to the word "maa" -
"hand"?

>It isn't a very good list anyway, as it is rather out of date.
Yes, I've noticed that. But can you, please, convince me in it's
worthlessness - are there words rejected by modern quenya linguists
(rejected by Tokien himself) and surely not valid any more? Or something
like that? :)

>A better one is at:
>http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/4101/e-q.html

Oh, thank you very much!

>** Lisa Star
Namaarie! S.Y., Elenhil Laiquendo



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> how about solosta-?
>
> Solostanen i Ungwe [or "i Ungwenna"?], ar utuuvien i lasse Ardalambion o
Aino...

_Ardalambion Ainondo..._ I think _natse_ is the best word to translate
"net", "web". (_Ungwe_ is very specifically SPIDER'S web, I think.) Perhaps
"Internet" = _Imbenatse_? There's one thing I'm pretty damn sure Tolkien
never made a word for...

> or, if one is actually using a surfboard on the foaming waves, one might
say "Solostan i falmalinnar".

Surely. Now we are almost ready to provide Quenya dubbing for _Baywatch_
(sc. Hyapattirie). Imagine Pamela saying "A lelyalme solostien!" = "Let's
go surfing!"

- Helge Fauskanger

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Boris Shapiro wrote:

> >**There is some mistake here.  The list which is linked from the page
> >you have given does not include P-E roots.
> Then, please, enlighten me: what is {magh}, given next to the word "maa" -
> "hand"?

The elements you are refering to as "P-E roots" are the roots from which the
words and its cognates were created.  They are not words by themselves, and
they were not used as such in any stage of the language.

> >It isn't a very good list anyway, as it is rather out of date.
> Yes, I've noticed that. But can you, please, convince me in it's
> worthlessness - are there words rejected by modern quenya linguists
> (rejected by Tokien himself) and surely not valid any more? Or something
> like that? :)

I haven't had time to go through it thoroughly, but here is one that cought my
eye pretty quickly.  It has listed "amarto" and "ambar" for the word "fate".
That is a Qenya word.  The proper Quenya word is "umbar", which is listed
later.  The root structure for the Qenya words (MRTR) is no longer valid for
the Quenya found in the Etymologies.

As for listing whether a word is a noun or a verb (from the other posting),
the designations are not consistently used.  Nor is there a definite pattern
to when the part of speech is marked.  As a general trend, words that could be
confused by an English speaker are designated; but some clear choices are
marked and some potentially confusing ones are not.

Beyond inaccurasies and such, the person who published this work is trying to
pass of this language as his own thing.  There is no reference to J.R.R.
Tolkien anywhere on the site that I could find.  He never explains that his
abbreviations are refererring to real books.  He even has the gall to put a
copyright notice at the bottom of the page!

I very much agree with the others in not recommending this page to anyone --
for linguistic and ethical reasons.


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At 09:42 -0400 9.5.1999, Edward Kloczko wrote:
[snip]
>
>I would like to propose a nomenclature for _Quenya_ in helping to a better
>understanding of the stages of the evolution of the tongue. Based on the
>fact that Tolkien seems (as I believe) to have "stabilised" his Quenya
>tongue after the publication of LOTR :
>

I have been using this terminological scheme privately for some time:

TIME    REAL WORLD              SUBCREATED WORLD
|
|       Incipient               Primitive
|
|       Early                   Archaic
|
|       Mature                  Classical
|
v       Late                    Post-classical

Since JRRT's conceptions about the subcreated world timeline/history
changed as time went on in the real world one needs to be able to use
combined terms like "Mature Primitive Quenderin" <ugh!>.  I intentionally
avoided the terms "old", "new" and "modern", since one might want to talk
about e.g. "older/newer Mature Quenya", or distinguish the use of Elvish by
people living now as e.g. "modern Sindarin".

This scheme has proved flexible enough, and I feel it's more convenient
than always pointing out if one means early/late relative to the real or
the subcreated world, or even worse be unclear on that IMHO important
distinction.

With "classical" I would mean the Q. that the Noldor brought with them to
Beleriand, which of course would have one Feanorian or "thuulea" and one
Fingolfinian or "silmea" dialect (the terms "thuulea" and "silmea" being my
coinages, of course!) in speech -- the Shiboleth of Feanor, remember? --
but written alike.  The spoken form would have lost the Accusative, BTW.

/BP


  B.Philip Jonsson  <bpj@...> <melroch@...>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
             Anant' avanaute quettalmar!               \ \
    __  ____ ____    _____________  ___ __   __ __     / /
    \ \/___ \\__ \  /___  _____/\ \\__ \\ \  \ \\ \   / /
    / /   / /  /  \    / /Melroch\ \_/ // /  / // /  / /
   / /___/ /_ / /\ \  / /Melarocco\_  // /__/ // /__/ /
  /_________//_/  \_\/ /Eowine__   / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
I neer Pityancalimeo\ \_____/ /ar/ /_atar Mercasso naan
~~~~~~~~~Cuinondil~~~\_______/~~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
|| Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda cuivie aiya! ||
"A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" (JRR Tolkien)



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Stonefeather/Quessondo wrote:

>Andreas Johansson stated on 6 May 1999:

>> BTW, ol' JRRT also seems to have disliked [Z], since it (as far as I know)
>> don't appear in any of his languages).

>Z occurs in the Black Speech ("nazg" and "burzum-ishi" in the ring

[snip]

Let's be clear here on what we are talking about:  The orthographic <z> and <Z>
in Tolkien's languages are phonetically [z], the voiced counterpart to [s], to
wit, a voiced alveolar or alveolopalatal apical or laminal fricative.  However,
that is not what was written in the post to which you replied.

In the ASCII IPA, the phonetic symbol [Z] represents a different sound, the
voiced palatal dorsal fricative represented orthographically by <j> in French,
by <su> or <zu> (as in _pleasure_, _azure_) among others in English, and so on.
It would most likely be spelt <zh> in Tolkien's writings, parallel to his use
of the digraph <sh> for [S], the voiceless counterpart to [Z].

								 Rich Alderson
-------

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Lisa Star wrote:

> **There is some mistake here.  The list which is linked from the page
> you have given does not include P-E roots.  It isn't a very good list
> anyway, as it is rather out of date.  A better one is at:

> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/4101/e-q.html


Thanks!!!

  Nice to hear that some people that know about the stuff appreciate what
I'm doing.
If you find some mistakes in the list I'll be glad to correct them so tell
me it's so long that I surely forgot some.
I also would be glad to know about some good Sindarin lists.
There will soon be some big completions on my homepage and a lot of new
stuff also about Tolkien and his languages, (if there are some computer
guys in this list I would like to know how to make a word search for the
dictionaryŠ)
And I would like to know where and if Tolkien gave names to numbers 1,2,3
but also first, second etc. Because I found once on a web page some quenya
names for numbers but they seemed really strange to me.
Thanks a lot
Life is great!


	 Reto Steffen
	 <mailto:reto.steffen@...>
	 <http://www.geocities.com/area51/shadowlands/4101>
	 Auta i lome! Namarie

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Andreas wrote..
> This is an irritiating thing. I've been through ten
> years of Swedish School,
> and to this date I have not been teatched ANYTHING
> on phonology or
> linguistics execpt what's required to learn English
> and German. An this
> little is of course very inituitive, and not very
> much theory stuff. I've
> learned more phonology in five months on this list
> than in ten years in
> school.
>
>                                      Andreas
>

If its any consolation I have been through fourteen years of English
school (so far).  And I didn't learn even basic grammatical terms.  In
fact, my French teacher taught us more about grammer than my English
one!!!!!

Although I have learnt quite a bit from the few weeks I've been on this
list, I'm doing a degree in Artificial Intelligence in September and my
knowledge of grammer isn't going to stand up for the linguistics I'll
be doing there.

Still, at least I should have some pretty good knowledge of the best
created language ever..

l8rz

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-----------------------------------
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Marcus Smith wrote
> Boris Shapiro wrote:
>
> > >**There is some mistake here.  The list which is
> linked from the page
> > >you have given does not include P-E roots.
> > Then, please, enlighten me: what is {magh}, given
> next to the word "maa" -
> > "hand"?
>
> The elements you are refering to as "P-E roots" are
> the roots from which the
> words and its cognates were created.  They are not
> words by themselves, and
> they were not used as such in any stage of the
> language.
>
> > >It isn't a very good list anyway, as it is rather
> out of date.
> > Yes, I've noticed that. But can you, please,
> convince me in it's
> > worthlessness - are there words rejected by modern
> quenya linguists
> > (rejected by Tokien himself) and surely not valid
> any more? Or something
> > like that? :)
>
> I haven't had time to go through it thoroughly, but
> here is one that cought my
> eye pretty quickly.  It has listed "amarto" and
> "ambar" for the word "fate".
> That is a Qenya word.  The proper Quenya word is
> "umbar", which is listed
> later.  The root structure for the Qenya words
> (MRTR) is no longer valid for
> the Quenya found in the Etymologies.

Isn't the Quenya word 'ambar' as in 'Turambar'.  Surely affixing a 'u-'
would make it ill(un)-fate?

I'm still new at this so correct me if that sounded dumb..

l8rz

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In article <37370773.7E7B7562@...> Marcus Smith <smithma@...> writes:

[ referring to the dictionaries on pages of
   http://www.dragons-inn.org/Ifreann/tynntangial.html
]

>I haven't had time to go through it thoroughly, but here is one that cought my
>eye pretty quickly.  It has listed "amarto" and "ambar" for the word "fate".
>That is a Qenya word.  The proper Quenya word is "umbar", which is listed
>later.  The root structure for the Qenya words (MRTR) is no longer valid for
>the Quenya found in the Etymologies.

The dictionary aims to include all Qenya/Quenya words; the
English-Elvish section is merely an index into the Q(u)enya-English
section.

>As for listing whether a word is a noun or a verb (from the other posting),
>the designations are not consistently used.  Nor is there a definite pattern
>to when the part of speech is marked.  As a general trend, words that could be
>confused by an English speaker are designated; but some clear choices are
>marked and some potentially confusing ones are not.

This is indeed a problem, which I am to a very small extent
addressing. So also is the out-of-date-ness and very many missing
data; I am still working through HoM-e, some years after I meant to
finish :-(

>Beyond inaccurasies and such, the person who published this work is trying to
>pass of this language as his own thing.  There is no reference to J.R.R.

Moreover, the person who published this page is attempting to pass off
the "dictionary" as his or her own. In fact, it is the work of Anthony
Appleyard, who assures me that he has most certainly not authorized
this publication of it in the mass of plagiarism that is the site in
question. Indeed, as TolkLang subscribers know well, the Tolkien
Estate has declined to authorize any electronic publication of
Anthony's work.


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I was looking through a list of reconstructed early Greek forms, and I
was struck by how much they resembled in phonetic style Quenya or a close
relative; in some ways slightly more archaic, in some ways less so.  It
occurred to me to compare the forms these words might have had if they had
gone through Quenya sound changes; and having done so, I was struck by the
way some of these words resembled Quenya not only in form and style, but
also occasionally in meaning.  Examples follow:
[The Quenyo-Greek reconstructions are all mine and may have some errors,
both in the  reconstruction from which they are derived and the derivation
of the Quenya, but I hope not too many]
Quenyo-Greek  real Greek  meaning
aaro 	 agros 	 field
alyo 	 allos 	 other
aster 	 asteer 	 star
axon 	 axoon 	 axle
corwa 	 ko(u)ra 	 girl
culco 	 kyklos 	 wheel
ecieno 	 ekeinos 	 that
emeryo 	 emou 	 my
enneva 	 ennea 	 nine
enos(enor), gen. enero genos, gen. genous  nation, tribe
epe 	 epi 	 on
erusso 	 erythros 	 red
farya 	 sphaira 	 ball
faura 	 spoude 	 haste
fero 	 pheroo 	 I carry
feronte 	 pherousi 	 they carry
her 	 kheir 	 hand
hono 	 phonos 	 murder
hoora 	 khoora 	 place
hwaaro 	 heedys 	 sweet
hwermo 	 thermos 	 warm
hwet 	 hex 	 six
lato 	 platys 	 wide cf. LAT open
latyon 	 pleesioon 	 near
leca 	 deka 	 ten
leuco 	 leukos 	 bright
leorto 	 loutron 	 bath-house
liiquo 	 leipoo 	 leave
liroome 	 didoomi 	 I give
luco (or ulco)  lykos 	 wolf
luo 	 dyo 	 two
maater 	 maateer 	 mother
melitya 	 melitta 	 bee
meeyon (or miyon)  mezdoon 	 greater
mirco 	 miikros 	 small
morya 	 moira 	 fate
muu 	 myys 	 mouse
naa, naav-  naus 	 boat
nefala 	 nephele 	 cloud
nit, niqu- 	 nips 	 snow    cf. NIKW-, cold
ohto 	 oktoo 	 eight
oira 	 oida 	 I know
oitya 	 oikia 	 management
oo 	 ous 	 ear
oo 	 bous 	 cow
ove 	 ois 	 sheep
pater 	 pateer 	 father
pehto 	 peptos 	 cooked (adj.)
penque 	 pente 	 five
petyo 	 pettoo 	 I cook
pote 	 posis 	 master
que 	 te 	 and (enclitic)
quetware 	 tessares 	 four
quis, qui 	 tis, ti 	 what, who
reo 	 hreoo 	 I flow
rie 	 treis 	 three
sasso (arc. thasso)  tharros 	 courage
secata 	 hekaton 	 hundred
sen 	 heis 	 one
seno 	 ksenos 	 stranger
septa 	 hepta 	 seven
sistaame 	 I stand
teleryo 	 teleoo 	 I complete     cf. root
TEL(ES) "finish, end"
teleryete 	 telei 	 completes
teleryonte  teleousi 	 they complete
tiseeme 	 titheemi 	 I put
ulor 	 hydoor 	 water
upo 	 hypo 	 under
vamyo 	 baino 	 I go  cf. vanya- "depart"

vate 	 basis 	 going
vatile, vatilev-  basileus 	 king
ve 	 se 	 thee
vinwen 	 idmen 	 we know
viis, viir 	 iis 	 violence
yo 	 hos 	 who (rel.prn.)  cf. yassen
"in which"
yeequar 	 heepar 	 liver
yee, yev- 	 zeus 	 Zeus, sky-god
yuo 	 zygon 	 yoke

     The point of all this (besides my own amusement) is, I suppose, to show
how much of the character of Quenya derives from the particular phonetic
form it takes -- a form which can be imitated using an entirely non-Quenya
basis; to illustrate some of the phonetic changes which Quenya goes
through; to show that, despite some quirks of its own, Quenya is very much
Indo-European in style [I would probably not be able to perform this stunt
with Turkish or Hebrew, and certainly not with Chinese]; and to suggest
some points at which Quenya may have been inspired by Ancient Greek.

/\     WISTR LAG WIGS RAIHTS
\/            WRAIQS NU IST                               <> David Salo
<dsalo@...> <>



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Hello,

I subscribed to your list only recently, so please forgive me if my questions
seem somewhat naive or strange to you, and please excuse my English.
1. Is there a difference between Quenia and Noldorin? As far as I understand, N.
is spoken in Middle-earth (Beleriand, first), and Q. in Valinor. If there is a
difference and if it is significant, could you please tell me where is it
possible to find a Noldorin dictionary?
2. Is there a Sindarin dictionary somewhere in the net?
3. How are the princes of the Noldor in exile formally addressed to (name &
title)? Could it be something like "Curufinwe Feanaro  Aran Etyangoldi" - and
what would be the title of Maidros?

I will be really happy if you find it possible to answer.

Nataly Vassilieva


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(This translation is extremely late. Had a little trouble contacting
someone to do it, so now I'm doing it myself. My sincerest apologies for
the delay.)

lindael@... posted in French:

I am looking for someone who can translate and write in Quenya "United
forever".

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dorothea Salo       <*>           |"He querido mas vivir en mi peque~a casa,
dorothea@...             |exenta, y se~ora, que no en sus ricos
http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea |palacios, sojuzgada y cativa."_Celestina_



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Thank's Dorothea for translating my words in English. Now I'm waiting the
Quenya translation !

Best regards

For Everybody, I apologyze... I don't say Hello in my first mail.


----- Message d'origine -----
De : Dorothea Salo <dorothea@...>
À : <elfling@egroups.com>
Envoyé : mercredi 12 mai 1999 04:29
Objet : [elfling] Re: traduction


> (This translation is extremely late. Had a little trouble contacting
> someone to do it, so now I'm doing it myself. My sincerest apologies for
> the delay.)
>
> lindael@... posted in French:
>
> I am looking for someone who can translate and write in Quenya "United
> forever".
>
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Matt Beaney <moricurunir@...> in elfling message 636 wrote :

>Isn't the Quenya word 'ambar' as in 'Turambar'.  Surely affixing a 'u-'
>would make it ill(un)-fate?
>
>I'm still new at this so correct me if that sounded dumb..

No, no. ;-)

Ambar and umbar were both used in Quenya. It is clearly the case. Ambar is
just a more neutral word than umbar, with its negtaive -u (fated/illfated).

EJK

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Uvazaimjia Natalia Vassilieva wrote in elfling message 639 :

>I subscribed to your list only recently, so please forgive me if my
questions
>seem somewhat naive or strange to you, and please excuse my English.
>1. Is there a difference between Quenia and Noldorin? As far as I
understand, N.

I quite understand your misunderstanding. Tolkien used the word Noldorin
for TWO quite distinct languages.

Noldorin was always the tongue the language of the Noldor in Tolkien's
books. But in the 30 Tolkien decided that the tongue of the Noldor changed
very much in Aman in Eldamar, and became very distinct from the Qenya
spoken by the "Lindar" (the later Vanyar, the Elves of the First Clan).
Later this Noldorin changed its name (plus a few other change) and became
Sindarin!

At the same time Noldorin became a dialect of Quenya, together with
Vanyarin, the dialect of the Vanyar.

>is spoken in Middle-earth (Beleriand, first), and Q. in Valinor. If there
is a
>difference and if it is significant, could you please tell me where is it
>possible to find a Noldorin dictionary?

>2. Is there a Sindarin dictionary somewhere in the net?

No, I have never seen a good list of Sindarin.

The Net is not the best place to look for a dictionary of Me languages. The
best place are the 3 dictionaries JRR Tolkien made himself : I Lam na
Ngoldathon, Qenyaqetsa, Etymologies. The first two published in the fanzine
Parma Eldalamberon and the second in the book "The Lost Road".

>3. How are the princes of the Noldor in exile formally addressed to (name
&
>title)? Could it be something like "Curufinwe Feanaro  Aran Etyangoldi" -
and
>what would be the title of Maidros?

Tolkien never clearly addressed this question (he was "writer" not a
"role-playing expert"). But he explained how the Eldar addressed the Valar.

We don't know if "Etyangoldi" was regarded as a "postive" title or used as
such by the Noldor in Beleriand. Finwë was Finwë Noldóran (= "Aran" of the
Noldor). This title probably Feanor adopted after the "death" of his
father, but we are not sure.

You will find on my site at :

http://www.multimania.com/lafee/finwefam.html

a list of the Q. names (*ataresse & amilesse) of all the children of Finwë
and Feanor ;

and at

http://www.multimania.com/lafee/nomshelfs.html

a long explanation (in French) about the use and meaning of Quenya names by
Elves and Men.

"Edik" J. Kloczko


P.S.

>I subscribed to your list only recently, so please forgive me if my
questions
>seem somewhat naive or strange to you, and please excuse my English.

I ne pomniy cho Wy was pritstavily... Pazalousta, raskazytie. Ja byl by
ochen rad. ;-)

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Nataly Vassilieva wrote:

>I subscribed to your list only recently, so please forgive me if my questions
>seem somewhat naive or strange to you, and please excuse my English.
>1. Is there a difference between Quenia and Noldorin? As far as I
>understand, N.
>is spoken in Middle-earth (Beleriand, first), and Q. in Valinor. If there is a
>difference and if it is significant, could you please tell me where is it
>possible to find a Noldorin dictionary?

Noldorin has two different meanings, according to the (real) time period in
which Tolkien was using the term.

A. Before 1950.  At this time Noldorin meant a language entirely distinct
from Quenya, spoken by the Noldor after their return to Beleriand, a
much-altered form of their previous language  spoken in Eldamar (which was
related to, but stll distinct from Quenya).  In form this "Exilic Noldorin"
language was very close to the related Sindarin, even though Sindarin has
an entirely different history in Tolkien's world.
      For this language there are considerable materials in the
"Etymologies" section of Tolkien's book The Lost Road.

B. After 1950.  Now Noldorin simply refers to the dialect of Quenya spoken
by the Noldor, distinguished from the dialect spoken by the Vanyar, or the
rather more divergent language spoken by the Teleri.  It is the same as the
standard Quenya usually met in names, phrases, and poems.

>2. Is there a Sindarin dictionary somewhere in the net?
     I don't think there is.

>3. How are the princes of the Noldor in exile formally addressed to (name &
>title)? Could it be something like "Curufinwe Feanaro  Aran Etyangoldi" - and
>what would be the title of Maidros?

     I don't know that Tolkien ever gives the details of Noldorin protocol!
I imagine your phrasing would be acceptable, except that for _Aran
Etyangoldi_ the correct form would be _Aran Etyangoldion_, using a genitive
plural after the noun instead of a simple plural.   Actually, I imagine
Feanor would be somewhat insulted by being called _Etyangol_, and would
prefer _Aran Noldoron_; I doubt he would have recognized the title of
Finarfin or anyone else as High King of the Noldor.
    "Your Majesty" is translated _Aran Meletyalda_, literally king
powerful-of-you.  The title of Feanor's father, which he might also have
used, was Noldooran; an unusual, and probably very archaic
compound-structure meaning Noldo-king (Noldo+aran; the normal Quenya
construction I would expect to be *Noldaran.)
    Maedros had no royal title, since he was dispossessed in favor of
Fingolfin, the eldest of the house of the Finwioni remaining in
Middle-earth.  I suppose as lord of Himring, and chief of the sons of
Feanor, he must have had some 'noble' status, but I don't know precisely
how it would be phrased.  Himring in Quenya ought to be something like
*Himbiringe.

/\     WISTR LAG WIGS RAIHTS
\/            WRAIQS NU IST                               <> David Salo
<dsalo@...> <>



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>I am looking for someone who can translate and write in Quenya "United
>forever".

	 I think you could use one word, Oiertaina "Ever-united", i.e. oio
"ever"+ertaina past participle of *erta- unite (cf. Mereth Ad-erthad, feast
of re-uniting in Sindarin).  But you could also say Ertaina Tennoio "United
Forever".

/\     WISTR LAG WIGS RAIHTS
\/            WRAIQS NU IST                               <> David Salo
<dsalo@...> <>



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Raymond A. Brown wrote:

>> Indeed, may I say how informative & how enjoyable I find all the
http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/ web sight?

Thank you. I should mention that my site can now be reached using the
following address, that is much easier to remember (I myself don't remember
the other address half the time):

http://move.to/ardalambion

A Swede by the name of Andreas Wileur kindly made this address for me (I
didn't, and still don't, have the faintest idea how to do it). The other,
complicated address was "forced upon me" by the university when I wanted to
make a homepage.

- Helge Fauskanger



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Unis pour toujours: Il existe un mot "sam-" 'unir', 'joindre' (dans les
Etymologies). Le participe du passive (ou du passé) serait "samina" pluriel
"saminar". 'Pour toujours' devrait être qc. comme "tennoio" (comme dans
"... ar i Eru i or ilye mahalmar ea tennoio = 'et lui, le Seul, qui est au
dessus de tous les thrones pour toujours.'). Ou bien 'oiale' (='everlasting
age'); alors:"saminar tennoio" = 'unis pour toujours' (plus litérallement)
ou "saminar oiale" = 'unis (en) éternité'.
Ce sont que deux suggestions. Il existent bien sûr beaucoup d'autres
possibilités.


Salut


David Kiltz



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>From: stonefeather@...
>Reply-To: elfling@egroups.com
>To: elfling@egroups.com
>Subject: [elfling] Re: Z
>Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 09:54:59 -0400
>
>Andreas Johansson stated on 6 May 1999:
>
> > BTW, ol' JRRT also seems to have disliked [Z], since
> > it (as far as I know) don't appear in any of his languages).
>
>"Hoom! Let us not be hasty....."  :)
>
>Z occurs in the Black Speech ("nazg" and "burzum-ishi" in the ring
>inscription, the word "nazguul", and the place-name "Lugbuurz"); in
>Dwarvish (the place-names "Zirak-zigil", "Kheled-zaram" and "Khazad-duum"
>for instance); in Aduunaic (the royal name "Ar-Pharazoon" most notably,
>along with many others); in (untranslated) Westron as spoken by the
>hobbits of the Shire ("Banaziir" = Samwise; "Suuza" = Shire); in Valarin
>(see the appendix to "Quenya & Eldar" in HM.XI); and in archaic
>(pre-exilic) Quenya (as in "olozi" > "olori", the plural of "olos" =
>dream; the tengwa "are" < "aze" represented this sound in Feanor's
>system).  I do not recall whether this sound was retained in Vanyarin or
>not, but the place-name "Ezellohar" (adapted from Valarin) is not given
>in any later form ("*erellohar").
>
>Stonefeather/Quessondo
>

You're misunderstanding my misuse of the IPA! ;-)

All the words and forms you've mention has the sound [z], as in engilsh
_zoo_. I was speaking about another sound, namely the one heard in the
second sylable of _pleasure_. In the IPA, it's written by a special (german)
varity of "z", which looks a bit like a lowered "3". It is, more or less,
standard to substitute this letter with a "Z" when using ASCII (which of
course lacks this sign).

In the appendixes to LotR JRRT uses "zh" to indicate this sound when
discussing the tengwar, but it seems that the sound don't appear in any
Middle Earth or Amanya language (through as Helge has pointed out, it's not
unlikely that Valarin and/or Black Speech possessed it, since both possess
[s] [z] and [S] (=the initial sound of "she")).

                                           Andreas


______________________________________________________

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Matt Beaney wrote:

>Marcus Smith wrote
>> I haven't had time to go through it thoroughly, but
>> here is one that cought my
>> eye pretty quickly.  It has listed "amarto" and
>> "ambar" for the word "fate".
>> That is a Qenya word.  The proper Quenya word is
>> "umbar", which is listed
>> later.
>
>Isn't the Quenya word 'ambar' as in 'Turambar'.  Surely affixing a 'u-'
>would make it ill(un)-fate?

    Both words are found; umbar is given as a letter-name in the list of
tengwar, and the form Umbarto meaning "the fated" appears as the name of a
son of Feanor.  But we also have ambar as in Tur-ambar and ambartanen
(probably instrumental of *ambarta).  This last shows that the stem is
ambart-, as we might expect, since the root is MBARAT, usually shortened by
syncope of the second vowel to the stem *mbart-.
    Umbart- might mean "ill fate", containing the element u- "not, mis-",
but it does not have to and probably doesn't (the "ill" meaning is not
specified anywhere); the initial sequence mb-, when not merely reduced to
m-, could become umb- just by vocalization of the initial m-sound (the
initial vowel then approximates itself to the labial sound of the m and
becomes u, the most labial of the vowel sounds).  Comparable changes happen
to other roots beginning with nasalized stops, e.g. *ngolee > ingole (where
the vowel-change is different but on the same principles).  Ambarta
probably shows prefixation of the root vowel; that is, a secondary root
AMBARAT derives from the primary root MBARAT, and Ambarta and -ambar come
from this secondary root.

/\     WISTR LAG WIGS RAIHTS
\/            WRAIQS NU IST                               <> David Salo
<dsalo@...> <>



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Thanks for the clarification; I was not familiar with the ascii version
of the IPA, so naturally took your "[Z]" to mean the English z ([z]).
Where could I find more information about this system of equivalencies?

I do notice that in Appendix D to LR, certh #16 is given the value of
"zh", presumably for use by writers of Sindarin, since only one value is
given, and because the Dwarves of Moria are said to have substituted #30
to represent "zh" in the Angerthas Moria.  It would not be surprising
that the sound occurred in Dwarvish, though we have no examples; but that
it should be included in the set of Daeron's runes seems very odd, since
it is clear that Sindarin lacks this sound.  I suppose it is possible
that it was used by the Elves of Beleriand to represent that sound
occuring in foreign names: perhaps one of the languages of the Edain, or
Dwarvish, or Orkish, or even the Elvish dialect of the Laiquendi of
Ossiriand, or of some variety of Dark Elves.  It seems unlikely that
Daeron would have included a rune for a sound that was only a theoretical
possibility (though I wouldn't put it past Feanor to do something of the
sort!)  The only other possibility I can think of is that Daeron, with
his mystical poetic insight, could see through ages of time and the
barrier between secondary and primary worlds and realized we would be
wanting it for writing English with someday. ;)

Stonefeather/Quessondo

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> I am looking for someone who can translate and write in Quenya "United
forever".

_Ertaine tennoio_ should do, reconstructing a Quenya word_erta-_ "unite" on
the basis of Sindarin _ertha-_ (cf. _Mereth Aderthad_, The Feast of
Reunion, mentioned in the Silmarillion - _aderthad_ "reunion" is the gerund
of _ertha-_ with a prefix _ad-_ "re").

- Helge Fauskanger


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>From: Edward Kloczko <106065.2071@...>
>Reply-To: elfling@egroups.com
>To: "INTERNET:elfling@egroups.com" <elfling@egroups.com>
>Subject: [elfling] Re: umbar?
>Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 08:00:23 -0400
>
>Matt Beaney <moricurunir@...> in elfling message 636 wrote :
>
> >Isn't the Quenya word 'ambar' as in 'Turambar'.  Surely affixing a 'u-'
> >would make it ill(un)-fate?
> >
> >I'm still new at this so correct me if that sounded dumb..
>
>No, no. ;-)
>
>Ambar and umbar were both used in Quenya. It is clearly the case. Ambar is
>just a more neutral word than umbar, with its negtaive -u (fated/illfated).
>
>EJK

Isn't _umbar_ simply _ambar_ with a prefix _u-_ (or _ú-_)? _Úmanyar_ is
translated "those not of Aman", evidently ú-Aman-ya-r
"not-Aman-adjective-plural", ie an adjective used and inflected like a noun.
Quenya don't permit long vowels before consonantal clusters, so _úmbar_
wouldn't be possible.

                                     Andreas



______________________________________________________

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David Salo wrote:

  >  I think you could use one word, Oiertaina "Ever-united", i.e. oio
"ever"+ertaina past participle of *erta- unite (cf. Mereth Ad-erthad, feast
of re-uniting in Sindarin).  But you could also say Ertaina Tennoio "United
Forever".

** Ah, David and I made ALMOST the same suggestion, then. I suggested
_Ertaine Tennoio_, he has _Ertaina Tennoio_. I think the participle would
most likely be plural (_ertaine_ rather than _ertaina_) because it probably
refers to more than one (what is the point of being united unless you are
more than one in the first place?) Since the idea is here probably "(we
are) united forever" = "(nalwe) ertaine tennoio", I would use a plural
form.

- Helge Fauskanger

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Helge Fauskanger
>** Ah, David and I made ALMOST the same suggestion, then. I suggested
>_Ertaine Tennoio_, he has _Ertaina Tennoio_. I think the participle would
>most likely be plural (_ertaine_ rather than _ertaina_) because it probably
>refers to more than one (what is the point of being united unless you are
>more than one in the first place?) Since the idea is here probably "(we
>are) united forever" = "(nalwe) ertaine tennoio", I would use a plural
>form.

    You're certainly right about it being plural; I should have checked back
to the original French, which says uni_s_ pour toujours.
    But I wonder about ertain_e_; can we be sure that the ending -e is used
on adjectives in every situation?   I think it may not be.  When the
adjective is virtually a substantive, we see the ending -ar; e.g.
Treebeard's A Vanimar "O Fair Ones".  And perhaps it is also treated as a
substantive when it is predicative rather than descriptive.  For instance,
sii maller raikar "now the ways are bent": i.e., "now the ways are bent
(ones)".  But *raike maller "bent roads".    If that's a good analysis,
then perhaps it should be Ertainar Tennoio: (those who are) united forever,
since there is nothing explicitly modified by ertaina.

/\     WISTR LAG WIGS RAIHTS
\/            WRAIQS NU IST                               <> David Salo
<dsalo@...> <>



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Aiya!


>> >**There is some mistake here.  The list which is linked from the page
>> >you have given does not include P-E roots.
>> Then, please, enlighten me: what is {magh}, given next to the word
"maa" -
>> "hand"?
>The elements you are refering to as "P-E roots" are the roots from which
the
>words and its cognates were created.  They are not words by themselves, and
>they were not used as such in any stage of the language.

So they belong to the "external history"? But such roots in "internal
history" - do they exist? Are they available?

>> >It isn't a very good list anyway, as it is rather out of date.
>> Yes, I've noticed that. But can you, please, convince me in it's
>> worthlessness - are there words rejected by modern quenya linguists
>> (rejected by Tokien himself) and surely not valid any more? Or something
>> like that? :)
>I haven't had time to go through it thoroughly, but here is one that cought
my
>eye pretty quickly.  It has listed "amarto" and "ambar" for the word
"fate".
>That is a Qenya word.  The proper Quenya word is "umbar", which is listed
>later.  The root structure for the Qenya words (MRTR) is no longer valid
for
>the Quenya found in the Etymologies.

Uh. Thank you.

>I very much agree with the others in not recommending this page to
anyone --
>for linguistic and ethical reasons.
OK

Namaarie! S.Y., Elenhil Laiquendo




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