Welcome to G-i-P at http://www.elvish.org/gwaith! I have just come back from
Scotland and I plan to add few new entries. Now you can read about the
changes on Lisa's TT website.

Cuio mae,

Ryszard Derdzinski
(Galadhorn)

maggot@... or galadhorn@...

"Gwaith-i-Phethdain" http://www.elvish.org/gwaith
"Polish Tolkien Society" http://www.parmadili.w.pl
"Silesian Homeland" http://www.kki.net.pl/~derdzinscy

*********************************************************************
"Pent Fangorn Onod: Thinna i ardhon: han mathon ne nen, han mathon ne chef,
han noston ne gwilith." - 'Said Fangorn the Ent: The world is changing: I
feel it in the water, I feel it in the earth, and I smell it in the air'.

John Ronald Reuel Tolkien "Many Partings" in "The Return of the King"

*********************************************************************


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Suilad!

If you want to see a fragment of the Arwen's sword inscription and runes of
the Moria chambers and if you want to read about Enya's song "Aníron" visit
Gwaith-i-Phethdain: Movie at http://www.elvish.org/gwaith.movie.htm

I am waiting for your comments!

Cuio mae,

Ryszard Derdzinski
(Galadhorn)

maggot@... or galadhorn@...

"Gwaith-i-Phethdain" http://www.elvish.org/gwaith
"Polish Tolkien Society" http://www.parmadili.w.pl
"Silesian Homeland" http://www.kki.net.pl/~derdzinscy

*********************************************************************
"Pent Fangorn Onod: Thinna i ardhon: han mathon ne nen, han mathon ne chef,
han noston ne gwilith." - 'Said Fangorn the Ent: The world is changing: I
feel it in the water, I feel it in the earth, and I smell it in the air'.

John Ronald Reuel Tolkien "Many Partings" in "The Return of the King"

*********************************************************************

i joined this list thinking it would be more or less a series of lessons or
something...all it is is discussing words under the assumption that everyone
already knows them...i'm not saying this is bad, this is a great list,
but...im still too much of a beginner to really understand anything that goes
on here. Before I unsubscribe, can someone please point me in a better
direction? It would be greatly appreciated, Thanks! ~*Erin

Erin,


i agree with you. this list does assume that you know quenya and its not at all
a tutorial. and the dowload for the language traslations on the site does not
work.

steve

----- Original Message -----
From: tinkyundrground@...
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 5:06 PM
To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [elfling] A better Place

i joined this list thinking it would be more or less a series of lessons or
something...all it is is discussing words under the assumption that everyone
already knows them...i'm not saying this is bad, this is a great list,
but...im still too much of a beginner to really understand anything that goes
on here. Before I unsubscribe, can someone please point me in a better
direction? It would be greatly appreciated, Thanks! ~*Erin

--
Manager address: elfling-owner@yahoogroups.com
Unsub address: elfling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Elfling welcome: http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea/elfling.html
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Get
more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

If you're looking for a series of lessons for Quenya, check out Helge
Fauskanger's Quenya course found at
http://www.uib.no/people/hnohf/qcourse.htm . I think this is more what you
had in mind. It is still not completed, but the entire course should be
online before the year's end. Enjoy!

Cuio mae,
David Nowakowski

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

Lesson 19 of my Quenya course is up, added to the file that already
contains lessons 16, 17 and 18:

http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/less-d.rtf

Lesson 19 discusses pronouns in imperative phrases, emphatic pronouns,
question-words like "who?" or "what?", and postpositions (apparently, there
are a few).

In this lesson I present some grammatical information that may be gleaned
from the Quenya Pater Noster, but without quoting Tolkien's text directly
(except for a few isolated words, though I guess that is quite enough to
offend some people). In a few months, when Tolkien's text has been
published, I plan to revise this lesson, explicitly citing the relevant
examples.

Lesson 20 will be the last regular lesson, but later I will also produce an
appendix with discussions of various obscure grammatical phenomena.

The cover-page for the entire course is found here:

http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/qcourse.htm

- HF

Welcome to G-i-P at http://www.elvish.org/gwaith! I have just come back from
Scotland and I plan to add few new entries. Now you can read about the
changes on Lisa's TT website.

Cuio mae,

Ryszard Derdzinski
(Galadhorn)

maggot@... or galadhorn@...

"Gwaith-i-Phethdain" http://www.elvish.org/gwaith
"Polish Tolkien Society" http://www.parmadili.w.pl
"Silesian Homeland" http://www.kki.net.pl/~derdzinscy

*********************************************************************
"Pent Fangorn Onod: Thinna i ardhon: han mathon ne nen, han mathon ne chef,
han noston ne gwilith." - 'Said Fangorn the Ent: The world is changing: I
feel it in the water, I feel it in the earth, and I smell it in the air'.

John Ronald Reuel Tolkien "Many Partings" in "The Return of the King"

*********************************************************************

Suilad!

Johan Winge has sent to me his own interpretation of the Moria chamber
inscription that can be seen in the newest theatrical teaser. According to
him it can read something like "the (ghastly or gaps) Khazaddúm". Or maybe
the middle word is Khuzdul _gabil_ 'great'? What do you think about this?

Read more at http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/movie.htm

Cuio mae,

Ryszard Derdzinski
(Galadhorn)

maggot@... or galadhorn@...

"Gwaith-i-Phethdain" http://www.elvish.org/gwaith
"Polish Tolkien Society" http://www.parmadili.w.pl
"Silesian Homeland" http://www.kki.net.pl/~derdzinscy

*********************************************************************
"Pent Fangorn Onod: Thinna i ardhon: han mathon ne nen, han mathon ne chef,
han noston ne gwilith." - 'Said Fangorn the Ent: The world is changing: I
feel it in the water, I feel it in the earth, and I smell it in the air'.

John Ronald Reuel Tolkien "Many Partings" in "The Return of the King"

*********************************************************************

On Freitag, September 28, 2001, at 11:54  Uhr, Ales Bican wrote:

>
>
> David Kiltz wrote:
>
>> On Mittwoch, September 26, 2001, at 12:04  Uhr, Yehuda Ronen wrote:
>>
>>> What is the aorist of harya- "possess": haryae, harye, or something
>>> else?
>>>
>> Tough question that. Let's start out at the Etymologies. Quenya verb
>> forms are given in the 3rd sg. aorist as a rule (e.g. Q. _mere_). Verbs
>> on _-ya_ and _-ta_ show their (apparent) aorist in -a (e.g. _mirilya_
>> "glitter"). So indeed it wd seem as though the aorist of derivatives in
>> PQ. *-yaa and *-taa has _-a_ in Quenya. This is supported by the fact
>> that *aa+e >*aa.
>
> **Please, may you give a reference where it occurs? I do not want
> to say you are wrong, I am just curious, because I know that ae
> gives "long ee near to aa [...], which then later became identified
> with normal ee" (VT39:10). So supposed *harjaae might give
> *harjae > harjee > *_harye_.
> Moreover, the ending of aorist is -i, so it would be *harjaai, not
> *harjaae. *harjaai would then, I think, give *_haryai_ and this
> *_harye_.
> Unless I am wrong.
The aa+e stuff is probably nonsense. It shd have read "...probably
implies". But then, -as you pointed out- the aorist is marked by -i.
However, Etymologies et alia point to -a in the aorist of "weak stems"
that is derivates in -aa (-taa, -yaa) of some sort as opposed to an
aorist in -i (-e) in "strong stems".
>
>> So the aorist wd be _harya_.
>
> **I think the same despite what was written above -- whatever
> its origin, though I think the aorist is not formed by -i at this verbs,
> the ending -a denotes aorist by itself.
>
>> The real question is, what wd the continutaive be ? _haryea_,
>> _haaryea_ ?
>
> **I would say the latter given the lengthening rule and _maaryat_
> in Namaarie.
> What confuses me is the explanation why _atatya_ was not
> syncopated: because the second _a_ was in a long syllable (see
> VT42:27). The editor notes "A long syllable is one that contains
> either a long vowel (or diphtong), or, as in this case, a short vowel
> followed by two (or more) consonants." (VT42:31). Nowhere else
> we can find a long vowel preceding two or more consonants,
> as far as I know.
> Anyway, the matter of palatalized and labialized consonants is
> somewhat strange. "Adunaic, like Avallonian, does not tolerate more
> than a single basic consonant initially in any word" (SD:417-8).
> _ny_, _ty_, qu_ occur indeed initially.
> And "[_ciryaquen_, _roquen_] were accented as unitary words and
> main stress came on the syllable preceding _-quen_: _kirya:quen_,
> _kirya:queni_" (WJ:407), which means that _qu_ had to counted as
> either a long consonant or two consonants. It is also interesting to
> note that _roquen_ comes from "*roko-kween with *Quenya
> syncope" (ibid., emphasis mine) -- so -ko- is not a long syllable?
> I must have gotten something wrong.
The case of *roko-kween might be some sort of haplology, too.
As for the above: That's exactly the problem. I'm not sure whether
Tolkien consistently thought -VVCy_ permissible in Quenya.

Erin wrote:
>i joined this list thinking it would be more or less a series of lessons or
>something...all it is is discussing words under the assumption that
>everyone
>already knows them...i'm not saying this is bad, this is a great list,
>but...im still too much of a beginner to really understand anything that
>goes
>on here. Before I unsubscribe, can someone please point me in a better
>direction? It would be greatly appreciated, Thanks! ~*Erin

As already said, there's a quite good Quenya Course available at the
Ardalambion (http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/). There is, to my knowledge, no
similar resource for any of the other languages, but the Ardalambion has
much information on these too.

                                                       Andreas


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

Greetings, all.

I have examined the relevant frames from the trailer, and have come to the
conclusion that it cannot say "gabil". While the "ga" (19, 48; B) is clear,
the "b" could possibly be an "m" (2, 6; B), but whatever it is that
precedes "kh" (20; A), it looks to me nothing like "l" (31; A).
That the following word is meant to be "Khazadd^um", there can be no doubt
(20, 48, 17, 49 or maybe 48, 9, 9, 43, 6; A). The use of 20 for "kh" is
erroneous, however, as that rune is clearly intended to represent [x] ("ch"
as in "bach, loch"). This is because 20 is the reverse of 18 "k", and
Appendix E states that "reversing the certh indicated opening to a
'spirant'". The small vertical line following rune 58 "+h" in the table in
Appendix E indicated aspiration, as illustrated in its use with 18 in
Balin's tomb inscription in FotR. The apparent use of 49 for the second "a"
in "Khazadd^um" may also be erroneous, as this vowel was long only in
"Khaz^ad"; i.e. the word should not be "*Khaz^add^um", according to the
evidence from LotR.

There are also lots of other runes all over the wall in the scene, and some
are quite visible. I can clearly make out "s?lver" (35, ?, 31, 4, 46, 12;
A) behind the top of Pippin's head, for example; this I think is the word
"silver", though the obscure rune might be 45. If this indeed says silver,
it is interesting to note that 35 was used for "s" rather than 54, although
Appendix E says that in the Angerthas Moria, 35 was used for "the clear or
glottal beginning of a word with an initial vowel" (a misprint -- a missing
comma and apostrophe in my RotK edition confuses the issue slightly here,
but the table is clearly indicating an apostrophe, a common symbol for the
glottal stop), while 54 was used for s.

The numbers above reference the runes in Appendix E of LotR; the letters A
and B refer to the first and second frames (runes1.tga and runes2.tga) from
this scene that I have uploaded to my website (in tga (targa) format to
prevent additional losses due to compression). You can download the
original frames and also contrast- and edge-enhanced versions of them from
http://www.durdin.net/andy/tolkien/moria.html ; If others are interested,
there are lots of runes visible in these pictures just waiting to be
deciphered.

Cheers,

Andrew


P.S. I want to thank all the elflingers that responded to my questions
about the name "Aearos" for their time and efforts. I have settled on the
form "Aearos", after weighing up the evidence. My first choice would have
been "Aeros", but it would necessarily be misread by many as English.


At 11:09 AM 2/10/01 +0200, Ryszard Derdzinski wrote:
>Suilad!
>
>Johan Winge has sent to me his own interpretation of the Moria chamber
>inscription that can be seen in the newest theatrical teaser. According to
>him it can read something like "the (ghastly or gaps) Khazaddúm". Or maybe
>the middle word is Khuzdul _gabil_ 'great'? What do you think about this?

Suilad!

Thank you Andrew Durdin for your wise notes concerning the Mazarbul movie
inscriptions.

It seems that all the movie Mazarbul inscriptions are English and not
Khuzdul, but they do have a lot of mistakes. It is a result of careless
reading of Tolkien's appendices in The Lord of the Rings.

I hope the movie companions that will be published in November will explain
something about the linguistic features of the LotR:FotR films.

And what do you think about Arwen's sword inscription? Maybe somebody has
found a picture with a complete text of this Elvish tengwar?

I have added Andrew's comment to my movie website at
http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/movie.htm.

Cuio mae,

Ryszard Derdzinski
(Galadhorn)

maggot@... or galadhorn@...

"Gwaith-i-Phethdain" http://www.elvish.org/gwaith
"Polish Tolkien Society" http://www.parmadili.w.pl
"Silesian Homeland" http://www.kki.net.pl/~derdzinscy

*********************************************************************
"Pent Fangorn Onod: Thinna i ardhon: han mathon ne nen, han mathon ne chef,
han noston ne gwilith." - 'Said Fangorn the Ent: The world is changing: I
feel it in the water, I feel it in the earth, and I smell it in the air'.

John Ronald Reuel Tolkien "Many Partings" in "The Return of the King"

*********************************************************************

> Erin,
> i agree with you. this list does assume that you know quenya and its
not at all a tutorial. and the dowload for the language traslations on
the site does not work.

To both Erin and Steve. I recently joined this group with a different
idea, too. But I'm not trying to change a 500-person forum to match my
idea. This is a community, not a tutorial. The people here are here to
freely discuss what they want to, and help other people for pure
good-will and languages love. (BUT there's a great tutorial in Helge's
one, as already said. I'm currently on lesson 8, so figure my poor
Quenya :))

So, there's a lot of messages that may be great but I don't understand.
I give them a glimpse, trying to catch something I understand, and
delete them if I don't. No trouble. On the other hand, people here are
incredible eager to help newbies, and you'll nearly sure get some
answers if you ask anything barely language-related (btw, thx to
everybody who have helped ME!). With time, I'm sure I'll get better in
this beautiful language and I can understand progressively more and
more, help people who need it and discuss deeper questions. Just like
learning, say, Chinese (like Seo :))

to get a bit on-topic, here you've got the two verses of the poem I
originally wrote as my first Quenya composition (on other order of
things: yeah, Mr. Hostetter, I think there can be Quenya compositions
after Tolkien. That's what makes the effort of this great man
incredible: his languages are ALIVE!! don't forget that)

Linda henduva telperiellon
     Maiden of sad eyes
i ve miri sílar
     that like jewels sparkle

not much, I know, but it required some work &collaboration for this
Quenya semi-ignorant. _Linda_ sad is an extrapolation of a possible
Quenya word from an original Sindarin (I think) and I don't know if word
order in the first verse is correct, but it's supposed to rhyme with
"mellon" (wow, so original :^P) in the third verse :). Second verse
seems quite easier :)

That's all for today

Namaarie

Omar

Does someone perhaps has any idea what tiriipti lirilla means (mentioned in Lost
Tales, p. 47)? lirilla seems straightforward, as it is translated in QL (also in
the index on names in Lost Tales, I think) as 'song, lay' or something. But what
about tiriipti?

Peter


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This was my email to Helge F., but i think he is too busy to bother with me
and my newbie questions... so can anyone here help me?

"
I admire your work on Tolkien's languages, and i want to learn Quenya
myself. However, I am wondering how the Tengwar alphabet plays into the
Quenya language. Your entire site is teaching Quenya (and other languages)
through the phonoecian alphabet (with accents and dieraseis, etc. of course)
just like in the LotR. However, i want to be able to use Quenya's true
alphabet. I have downloaded Dan-whoever's fonts (of course quenya is the
ONLY ONE that doesnt work, but ill fix that yet...) Anyway, i was reading
that Dan guy's site, and it explained the difficulties in key mapping and
how Tengwar characters did not correspond to our english letters (the sound,
i mean) and so one cannot simply type "linte," for example, in the Tengwar
Quenya font, and have the resulting characters MEAN "swift" in Quenya, using
the Tengwar alphabet. Instead, one has to use something like TenScribe, or
macros.

Therefore, my question is this: can you please explain how this works, with
a nice, big, fat, juicy page full of info on your ardalambion site? I
noticed you mentioned the Tengwar alphabet only in passing, so i kno this
will be a great improvement to your site, since it is an integral part of
the Quenya language and Tolkien's view of it. Thank you.
"

So now my question is this, to all you guys: If i want to actually learn
Quenya, I would want to know how to write using the correct alphabet. So
which letters correspond to which tengwar symbols? And cant someone make a
font that, instead of having to use tengscribe, would type out whatever one
wants to say, normally, instead of funny symbols? I kno there is a
discrepancy between the different languages that all use tengwar, like
sindarin and noldor, but why not make different fonts for them, key-mapped
to their own language? I mean, all the work to learn quenya, and you cant
even write it in its native alphabet without using something like
tengscribe! Since this is getting long, i think im going to stop now before
all of you fall asleep. Please help the newbie -----> Me. Thank you.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

--

Raghav Krishnapriyan [en,ia,la,fr,hi,zh,kn(fi,cy,it,eo,es)]



>From: "Herbert Liu" <ancalimohtar@...>

[snip]

>So now my question is this, to all you guys: If i want to actually learn
>Quenya, I would want to know how to write using the correct alphabet. So
>which letters correspond to which tengwar symbols? And cant someone make a
>font that, instead of having to use tengscribe, would type out whatever one
>wants to say, normally, instead of funny symbols? I kno there is a
>discrepancy between the different languages that all use tengwar, like
>sindarin and noldor, but why not make different fonts for them, key-

'Noldor' isn't a language, but one of the three clans of Eldar. Sindarin
used to be envisioned by Tolkien as the language of the Noldor, and hence
called Noldorin, but later he made it the language of the Sindar (Grey Elves
in Middle Earth) and had the Noldor speak Quenya.

mapped
>to their own language? I mean, all the work to learn quenya, and you cant
>even write it in its native alphabet without using something like
>tengscribe! Since this is getting long, i think im going to stop now before
>all of you fall asleep. Please help the newbie -----> Me. Thank you.

If you want to know which tengwar correspond to which sounds, you can look
at LotR Appendix E. It describes the Quenya mode in some deatil there. You
can also find it at Dan Smith's page:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4948/tengwar/quenya.htm.

I think part of the difficulty with using the Tengwar font without
TengScribe is that in Quenya, the vowels are written above the -following-
consonant. I know next to nothing about this and I'm likely to be wrong, but
if a word ends with a vowel, then it must be placed on a carrier (a little
line that can either look like an undotted i or extend below the line,
depending on whether the vowel is short or long). This means that if you
were to type a vowel, it would have to display with a carrier -in case- it
were the last vowel in a word (the computer wouldn't know) and then if you
typed a consonant, that consonant would have to replace the carrier.
Tengscribe works because it can look at the whole word and see if a vowel is
the last in its word. And I'm pretty sure there are quite a few other
difficulties. Sorry if I'm not making much sense.

There are quite a few resources on the web for learning about Tolkien's
scripts. Try Amanye Tenceli at http://hem.passagen.se/mansb/at/.
It also contains information about an even earlier alphabet, the Sarati,
which were used to write Quenya before the Tengwar.


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Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

--- In elfling@y..., Omar Díez <bdiez@p...> wrote:

> yeah, Mr. Hostetter, I think there can be Quenya compositions
> after Tolkien.

In point of fact, you've misrepresented what I was questioning. Helge
used the phrase "authentic Quenya" to refer to non-Tolkienian
compositions. I merely wondered aloud whether anything non-Tolkienian
can be considered "authentic" Quenya (that is, "Quenya" proper at
all). I daresay that had Tolkien decided to make any of the "Quenya"
translations or compositions offered on this list, they would have
looked very different indeed from those efforts.

> That's what makes the effort of this great man
> incredible: his languages are ALIVE!! don't forget that)

No, they are _not_ alive. By any definition under which any of
Tolkien's languages could be considered "alive", then Latin, Old
English, the various dialects of ancient Greek, Gothic, and even
Hittite would likewise be "alive". Well, they aren't, and neither are
Tolkien's languages.

Tolkien's "effort" is nonetheless "incredible" (to use your terms),
because through it, as with his mythology, one man became the
linguistic equivalent of a people: he created linguistic systems that
_appear_ to have the verisimilitude of primary-world languages
(living or otherwise), in that they exhibit underlying structure,
development, and interrelationship, which otherwise result in the
primary world only from many thousands of years of unheeded change.
But Latin, ancient Greek, etc., etc., also exhibit these
characteristics, and have great linguistic-aesthetic appeal to many
people, despite their being dead. The one thing (degree of
linguistic-aesthetic appeal and achievement) is in no way dependent
upon or a result of the other (language vitality).

Don't forget that.

Hi,

I'm still reading Helge's course, and actually it's the first time I post on
this list (though I've been subscribed for a while), so my comments are not
the most reliable ones :)


> to get a bit on-topic, here you've got the two verses of the poem I
> originally wrote as my first Quenya composition (on other order of
> things: yeah, Mr. Hostetter, I think there can be Quenya compositions
> after Tolkien. That's what makes the effort of this great man
> incredible: his languages are ALIVE!! don't forget that)
>
> Linda henduva telperiellon
>     Maiden of sad eyes
> i ve miri sílar
>     that like jewels sparkle
>
> not much, I know, but it required some work &collaboration for this
> Quenya semi-ignorant. _Linda_ sad is an extrapolation of a possible
> Quenya word from an original Sindarin (I think) and I don't know if word
> order in the first verse is correct, but it's supposed to rhyme with
> "mellon" (wow, so original :^P) in the third verse :). Second verse
> seems quite easier :)

The second verse seems ok to me. Concerning the first one: linda already
means something like "sweet-souding". For telperiellon, where does this word
come from? It looks like an ablative plural of telperië, which would mean
"from telperier", and telperië looks like a feminine name related to telp
"silver"...

Namaarie

Jeremie

Im terribly sorry if I conveyed that I want this list to change. I don't, not
at all. Was just asking about a better place (hence the name of this email)
for me to go and get what I needed. Sorry about that!

Aelwine (Carl Hostetter) deithant/teithant/whatever:
>In point of fact, you've misrepresented what I was questioning. Helge
>used the phrase "authentic Quenya" to refer to non-Tolkienian
>compositions. I merely wondered aloud whether anything non-Tolkienian
>can be considered "authentic" Quenya (that is, "Quenya" proper at
>all). I daresay that had Tolkien decided to make any of the "Quenya"
>translations or compositions offered on this list, they would have
>looked very different indeed from those efforts.

They would, most probably. But take this example: if someone gave some
example of English to, say, Didier Willis, Sébastien Bertho and me to
translate into French, I daresay that our renderings would be quite
different. Does that mean that only one of us would be using 'authentic'
French? Not at all. Of course, Tolkien would doubtless have some insight
into Quenya that those on this list lack due to the fact that he created the
language, but by following the attested forms in the examples of Quenya tat
Tolkien himself wrote I believe it is quite possible to compose authentic
Quenya works. On the other hand, it is possible that Tolkien's translations
might be surprisingly close to what one finds here. How close was his
'Lord's Prayer' to your own? (I'm not asking for specific examples, just
over-all assessment.)

Cuio mae, Danny.

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Looking at the movie lines at G-i-P, I noticed this. Elrond's line "Frodo,
lasto beth nîn, tolo dan na ngalad." (Frodo, hear my voice, come back to the
light.) Ngalad? Unless I'm mistaken, Sindarin initial "C" never mutates to
"Ng". Surely it should be 'galad'...or am I wrong?

Cuio mae, Danny.

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--- In elfling@y..., "D. Daniel Andriës" <uialdil@h...> wrote:
>
> Aelwine (Carl Hostetter) deithant/teithant/whatever:

LOL!

> >I daresay that had Tolkien decided to make any of the "Quenya"
> >translations or compositions offered on this list, they would have
> >looked very different indeed from those efforts.
>
> They would, most probably. But take this example: if someone gave some
> example of English to, say, Didier Willis, Sébastien Bertho and me to
> translate into French, I daresay that our renderings would be quite
> different. Does that mean that only one of us would be using 'authentic' =

> French? Not at all.

True enough. But the sorts of differences that would arise in my scenario w=
ould, I feel certain, be of a quite different nature than that simply of wor=
d choice or phrasing, as would predominate in the scenario you present. This=
  is borne out quite fully by the example that you allude to:

> How close was his 'Lord's Prayer' to your own?

Not at all, as you will see.

>But take this example: if someone gave some
>example of English to, say, Didier Willis, Sébastien Bertho and me to
>translate into French, I daresay that our renderings would be quite
>different. Does that mean that only one of us would be using 'authentic'
>French? Not at all.

Well i think everyone here would agree (however much they wish the opposite)
that Quenya is definetely not as complex a language as French. Or English.
Or German. Or most of the other hundreds of languages spoken worldwide
currently. The grammar and language itself might come close, but the
vocabulary does not. How many ways in English cane we say "That is
definetely a good sword"? That is definetely an amazing sword. That is
absolutely a powerful, sharp, elegant, ancient, etc., etc., etc. rapier. Or
scimitar. Or falchion. Or sabre. Or 9999 other words that mean similar
things. Now of course im exaggerating it--there are actual differences
between scimitars and rapiers, they are different types of swords. But the
concept is the same.

On the subject of "authentic" Quenya, however, I do believe only things
actually written by Tolkien (either) or things that are absolutely
researched and proved by strong evidence from Tolkien's notes can count as
"authentic". Even on Fauskanger's site, he mentions that quite a bit of the
Quenya taught there is speculated upon from small amounts of evidence in the
form of Tolkien's notes. The Quenya you guys (and me, hopefully soon)
write/speak probably has quite a few errors (errors = differences from what
TOlkien envisioned) in it. Thats just my 2 cents worth.

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Raghav Krishnapriyan wrote:
>
> If you want to know which tengwar correspond to which sounds, you can look
> at LotR Appendix E. It describes the Quenya mode in some deatil there. You
> can also find it at Dan Smith's page:
> http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4948/tengwar/quenya.htm.
  Appendix E isn't terribly clear if one doesn't have some basic
knowledge of the language, a must read anyway.

> I think part of the difficulty with using the Tengwar font without
> TengScribe is that in Quenya, the vowels are written above the -following-
  Actually, they are written above the previous consonant.

> consonant. I know next to nothing about this and I'm likely to be wrong, but
> if a word ends with a vowel, then it must be placed on a carrier (a little
> line that can either look like an undotted i or extend below the line,
> depending on whether the vowel is short or long). This means that if you
> were to type a vowel, it would have to display with a carrier -in case- it
> were the last vowel in a word (the computer wouldn't know) and then if you
> typed a consonant, that consonant would have to replace the carrier.
  If you're typing manually, then the computer doesn't have to do any of
this (which is anyway a Sindarin problem). Dan Smith's fonts are
actually quite well mapped onto the keyboard, except for the 'y' tehtar
and a couple others I can't remember right now (it has been a few months
since the last time I typed in tengwar).

> Tengscribe works because it can look at the whole word and see if a vowel is
> the last in its word. And I'm pretty sure there are quite a few other
> difficulties. Sorry if I'm not making much sense.
  Letter width :) Dan Smith's fonts have four of each tehta to fit
different tengwar (a carrier and a double bow tengwa are quite
different), in my opinion just three would do good enough, but that
would still be a pain for a complete beginner... I think the best way to
use tengwar at first is... pen and paper! Looks way better too if you
use a feather-like pen and have a steady hand.

> There are quite a few resources on the web for learning about Tolkien's
> scripts. Try Amanye Tenceli at http://hem.passagen.se/mansb/at/.
  Good page :)
  Angasule

Helge K. Fauskanger wrote:
>
> > But now (at last) I've got the real Etymologies ...
>
> Okay. Can you cite, for instance, the entry GAT ... ?

GAT- Q <atsa> catch, hook, claw; S <gad-, gedi> catch.

(I still prefer to use S for Sindarin instead the N, as in Etym).

SY; Maxim Kostromin


P.S. I'll try also to send this message from my free
e-mail account at <mail.ru>, but I'm afraid, that all
"free" sites have even more chances to be "blacklisted".

----- Original Message -----
From: "D. Daniel Andriës" <uialdil@...>
To: <elfling@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 6:56 AM
Subject: [elfling] ngalad? really?


>
> Looking at the movie lines at G-i-P, I noticed this. Elrond's line "Frodo,
> lasto beth nîn, tolo dan na ngalad." (Frodo, hear my voice, come back to
the
> light.) Ngalad? Unless I'm mistaken, Sindarin initial "C" never mutates to
> "Ng". Surely it should be 'galad'...or am I wrong?
>
> Cuio mae, Danny.
>
>

It is galad Daniel as you thought. Galad, of course is descended from ÑAL
"shine by reflection", therefore we have Q. ñalta, T. alata and S. galad
"radiance".

----- Original Message -----
From: <Aelfwine@...>
To: <elfling@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 6:01 AM
Subject: [elfling] Re: A better Place


--- In elfling@y..., Omar Díez <bdiez@p...> wrote:

> yeah, Mr. Hostetter, I think there can be Quenya compositions
> after Tolkien.

In point of fact, you've misrepresented what I was questioning. Helge
used the phrase "authentic Quenya" to refer to non-Tolkienian
compositions. I merely wondered aloud whether anything non-Tolkienian
can be considered "authentic" Quenya (that is, "Quenya" proper at
all). I daresay that had Tolkien decided to make any of the "Quenya"
translations or compositions offered on this list, they would have
looked very different indeed from those efforts.

> That's what makes the effort of this great man
> incredible: his languages are ALIVE!! don't forget that)

No, they are _not_ alive. By any definition under which any of
Tolkien's languages could be considered "alive", then Latin, Old
English, the various dialects of ancient Greek, Gothic, and even
Hittite would likewise be "alive". Well, they aren't, and neither are
Tolkien's languages.

Tolkien's "effort" is nonetheless "incredible" (to use your terms),
because through it, as with his mythology, one man became the
linguistic equivalent of a people: he created linguistic systems that
_appear_ to have the verisimilitude of primary-world languages
(living or otherwise), in that they exhibit underlying structure,
development, and interrelationship, which otherwise result in the
primary world only from many thousands of years of unheeded change.
But Latin, ancient Greek, etc., etc., also exhibit these
characteristics, and have great linguistic-aesthetic appeal to many
people, despite their being dead. The one thing (degree of
linguistic-aesthetic appeal and achievement) is in no way dependent
upon or a result of the other (language vitality).

Don't forget that.

**To that I would agree. Quenya is by all intents and purposes, a dead
language, whether in Middle-Earth or the real world. In Middle-Earth, it
became virtually a dead language by the beginning of the Second Age,
remaining only a language of lore among those who use it. All dead languages
whether real or artificial have those characteristics that Carl mentioned.
Of course, Latin still being broadcast over Vatican Radio with new coinages
to fit the modern world, e.g. satelles artificiales for artificial
satellite/s. In fact the only dead language that has been ressurrected to
the family of living languages is Hebrew, the official language of Israel.
We have to realize that Quenya, while a fictional diachronic language, is a
dead language by all intents and purposes. But does that mean we should stop
studying this and all of Tolkien's languages? Of course not.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Herbert Liu" <ancalimohtar@...>
To: <elfling@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 5:35 AM
Subject: [elfling] Discrepancy


> This was my email to Helge F., but i think he is too busy to bother with
me
> and my newbie questions... so can anyone here help me?
>
> "
> I admire your work on Tolkien's languages, and i want to learn Quenya
> myself. However, I am wondering how the Tengwar alphabet plays into the
> Quenya language. Your entire site is teaching Quenya (and other languages)
> through the phonoecian alphabet (with accents and dieraseis, etc. of
course)
> just like in the LotR. However, i want to be able to use Quenya's true
> alphabet. I have downloaded Dan-whoever's fonts (of course quenya is the
> ONLY ONE that doesnt work, but ill fix that yet...) Anyway, i was reading
> that Dan guy's site, and it explained the difficulties in key mapping and
> how Tengwar characters did not correspond to our english letters (the
sound,
> i mean) and so one cannot simply type "linte," for example, in the Tengwar
> Quenya font, and have the resulting characters MEAN "swift" in Quenya,
using
> the Tengwar alphabet. Instead, one has to use something like TenScribe, or
> macros.
>
> Therefore, my question is this: can you please explain how this works,
with
> a nice, big, fat, juicy page full of info on your ardalambion site? I
> noticed you mentioned the Tengwar alphabet only in passing, so i kno this
> will be a great improvement to your site, since it is an integral part of
> the Quenya language and Tolkien's view of it. Thank you.
> "
>
Herbert, pardon me for being blunt, but I believe you are a case of someone
who has the tools but doesn't know how to use them. Helge has no need to
explain the tengwar in his webpage because Dan Smith (the Dan
something-or-other you mentioned) already explained it adequately, in his
web site. I don't have to add that it is assumed that the people who
downloaded his fonts already know about the Tengwar and the corresponding
values thereof, at least in Quenya. In constructing his font, Dan Smith made
compromises, i.e. the corresponding keys do not match. His solution was to
provide a printable file in which he outlined which keys to press to get the
desired tengwar/tehtar. It takes a little practice to get the hang of it of
course (it took me quite a while in my case).

> So now my question is this, to all you guys: If i want to actually learn
> Quenya, I would want to know how to write using the correct alphabet. So
> which letters correspond to which tengwar symbols? And cant someone make a
> font that, instead of having to use tengscribe, would type out whatever
one
> wants to say, normally, instead of funny symbols? I kno there is a
> discrepancy between the different languages that all use tengwar, like
> sindarin and noldor, but why not make different fonts for them, key-mapped
> to their own language? I mean, all the work to learn quenya, and you cant
> even write it in its native alphabet without using something like
> tengscribe! Since this is getting long, i think im going to stop now
before
> all of you fall asleep. Please help the newbie -----> Me. Thank you.
>

See above.  Also, read The Lord of the Rings, Appendix I. Also check out
this website to begin:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4948/tengwar/quenya.htm

Oops! My spelling checker inadvertently changed Appendix E to Appendix I. My
apologies. It should be The Lord of the Rings Appendix E.