This is how a Dictionary with all words published to date [Only the letter

TY is proposed] from Qenya and Quenya would look like without any

"choosing".



The orthography has been standardised.



It is quite inconvenient, to say the least.



But again this is my opinion.



With this long "example" I hope that more and more will agree with me.



Now you can talk Elvish! -- Sii quetetye Quenya! :-)



EJK





******************************



-tye, pron. fam. you.



tyacta-, v. to hew.



tyalangan (tyalangand-), n. harp-player.



tyalie, n. sport, play, game.



tyal-, v. to play (a game).



tyar-, v. to cause.



tyaro, n. doer, actor, agent.



tyasa-, v. to test, to try, to pick, to choose.



tyasta-, v. to put to the test.



tyastava-, v.tr. to taste (at).



tyausta, n. savour, flavour.



tyava-, v. (impr.) it tastes of, it reminds one of.



tyavasta, n. sense of taste.



tyįve, n.taste, pleasure.



tyav-, v. to taste.



tyé, n. tea.



tyel, I v. to end, to cease. II n. end.



tyelca, adj. 1° swift, agile. 2° hasty.



tyelde, n. end (of a thing).



tyelima, adj. final.



tyelle, n. ling. grade (of operture of a sound).



tyelma, n. ending.



tyelpe, n. 1° silver. 2° letter ty.



tyelperion, n. white tree of valinor. [ut/266]   telperion



tyelpetéma, n. ling. ty-serie (lit.). the palatalise consonants : tyelpe

ty, indyo ndy, istyar sty, intya nty, nyelle ny, arya ry, alya ly.



tyelpina, adj. of silver.



tyetl, n. tiny baby, babe.



tyetse, n. teat.



tyś, n. thigh.



tyśca, adj. thick.



tyucta-, v. to chew.



tyucu-, v. to chew.



tyulin, adj. tall.



tyulma, n.  mast.



tyulta-, v. to rear up, to stick up.



tyulusse, n. bot. poplar.



tyśma, n. lump, mass.



tyur (tyurd-), n. cheese.



tyurda, adj. curdled.



tyśre (tyśri-), adj. stout, dense, compact.



tyuru-, v. to "turn" milk, curdle (blood, etc.)



tyus (tyusc-), cud.



tyustyucta-, v. to chew the cud = reflect "reminisce".



tyśte (tyśsi-), n. thumb.



*********************************



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>The orthography has been standardised.



How ? Mansse wande ? @%%{@##\]#\]#} /@{\[##} ?

Noane tultatye ta' qettlinnar elflingo .

@##^@{@##\[##} [#&/\[#{$@} [#\[{ /[}[#\[#\/|@##\@##\{@#  @}/\]%\/|$$@^



> Sii quetetye Quenya

What's with the nasal inflection because you added the tye-suffix on quet

and why did you use the binding vowel "e" ?

Shouldn't it be quentatye or something similar according to what Appleyard

wrote ?





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Edward Kloczko wrote:

>This is how a Dictionary with all words published to date [Only the letter

>TY is proposed] from Qenya and Quenya would look like without any

>"choosing".



Okay, this is a good place to start -- but in my opinion, we can't finish

here.   Many of these words (derived from the Qenya Lexicon) simply aren't

believable as Quenya words; they contain sounds or sound-sequences which

don't exist in Quenya, or morphemes which aren't found in Quenya.  If they

are just 'loanwords' from Qenya into Quenya, that's one thing (but then any

language could serve as a source of loanwords); but if these are supposed

to be genuine Quenya words, descended from Common Eldarin through the same

processes, they should look the same.



    For instance:



>tyacta-, v. to hew.

>tyucta-, v. to chew.

>tyustyucta-, v. to chew the cud = reflect "reminisce".



    In Quenya, the cluster *-kt- had changed to -ht-; so a word *tyakta- or

*kyakta- would have emerged as tyahta-.  Likewise tyucta- and tyustyucta-

should probably be tyuhta- and tyustyuhta-.



>tyasa-, v. to test, to try, to pick, to choose.

>

>tyasta-, v. to put to the test.

>

>tyastava-, v.tr. to taste (at).



    These words look as if they should come from a root *tyas- or *kyas-; if

so, the first verb should be not tyasa- but tyara-, since s between vowels

became -z-, then -r- in Quenya.  Only if the root is *tyath- would tyasa be

acceptable.



>tyetl, n. tiny baby, babe.



    This 'diminutive -l' ending (and its Gnomish counterpart, -li) don't

work in the Eldarin languages, which didn't have original syllabic

consonants.  Some other diminutive ending would have to be substituted, say

-inke (tyetinke).



>tyus (tyusc-), cud.

    The stem of this word should perhaps be tyux- (tyuks-) in Quenya.



>tyśte (tyśsi-), n. thumb.

     Evidently these come from an original *tyuuti; in Qenya, when final

(short) -i became -e; and at a later date, -ti- became -si- (so tyuute

would have declined forms like tyuusin, etc.).  But the latter rule doesn't

operate in Quenya; so we have Maitimo, not *Maisimo; quetin, not *quesin.

So in Quenya, the noun would have to be tyuute, dative case tyuutin.

    The same is true for the Qenya word for 'egg' that Edward cited earlier:

ohte, stem oksi- (both from earlier *okti).  In Quenya, the word would have

to be ohte, stem ohti- (e.g., dative ohtin, instrumental ohtinen, and so

on).  The Gnomish counterpart och suggests that the stem is *ok-, with a

suffix *-ti.



/\     WISTR LAG WIGS RAIHTS

\/            WRAIQS NU IST                               <> David Salo

<dsalo@...> <>







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David Salo <dsalo@...> wrote :



>Edward Kloczko wrote:

>>This is how a Dictionary with all words published to date [Only the

letter

>>TY is proposed] from Qenya and Quenya would look like without any

>>"choosing".

>

>Okay, this is a good place to start -- but in my opinion, we can't finish

>here.



Absolutely! ;-)



>Many of these words (derived from the Qenya Lexicon) simply aren't

>believable as Quenya words; they contain sounds or sound-sequences which

>don't exist in Quenya, or morphemes which aren't found in Quenya.  If they

>are just 'loan-words' from Qenya into Quenya, that's one thing (but then

any

>language could serve as a source of loan-words);



Qenya/Eldarissa is a tongue made by JRR Tolkien, so it is not just any

other language. Modern Elvish is in a sense a "new" tongue, but I would

like to keep as much as we can Qenya/Eldarissa into Modern Elvish as a

tribute to the genius of JRRT.





>but if these are supposed

>to be genuine Quenya words, descended from Common Eldarin through the same

>processes, they should look the same.



>   For instance:



>>tyacta-, v. to hew.

>>tyucta-, v. to chew.

>>tyustyucta-, v. to chew the cud = reflect "reminisce".



>   In Quenya, the cluster *-kt- had changed to -ht-; so a word *tyakta- or

>*kyakta- would have emerged as tyahta-.  Likewise tyucta- and tyustyucta-

>should probably be tyuhta- and tyustyuhta-.



I do approve the change of cluster -kt- seen in Qenya/Eldarissa to -ht- in

Modern Elvish as it is in Quenya. And already JRR T was thinking of making

this change in Qenya/Eldarissa.



>tyasa-, v. to test, to try, to pick, to choose.

>

>tyasta-, v. to put to the test.

>

>tyastava-, v.tr. to taste (at).



>   These words look as if they should come from a root *tyas- or *kyas-;

if

>so, the first verb should be not tyasa- but tyara-, since s between vowels

>became -z-, then -r- in Quenya.  Only if the root is *tyath- would tyasa

be

>acceptable.



Since the cluster -st- in authorised in Quenya (alahasta), I would prefer

to keep tyasa- so as to establish a family tyasa/tyasta/tyastava instead of

tyar(a)- which will conflict with tyar- of Quenya.

So even if kaimasan (Ety, p. 387), with -asa-, is from kaima + sam-, and

the rhotacism is common in Noldorin Quenya (s > z > r), I propose to keep

these word unchanged in Modern Quenya. But it is a debate of taste, and as

Tolkien said about Elvish : the changes in their language were oft made

consciously.



>>tyetl, n. tiny baby, babe.

>

>   This 'diminutive -l' ending (and its Gnomish counterpart, -li) don't

>work in the Eldarin languages, which didn't have original syllabic

>consonants.  Some other diminutive ending would have to be substituted,

say

>-inke (tyetinke).



Tyetl could be interpreted also as "one who sucks, sucker", and we could

simply change tyetl to tyetil in Modern Quenya.



>>tyus (tyusc-), cud.

>

>  The stem of this word should perhaps be tyux- (tyuks-) in Quenya.



This is I believe a really question of "personal" taste even if -sk- is not

a cluster seen in Quenya. What do you think member of the Elfling?



tyux /tjuks/ or tyusc-.



I prefer "tyusce", but it is a metter of taste.





>tyute (tyusi-), n. thumb.

>    Evidently these come from an original *tyuuti; in Qenya, when final

>(short) -i became -e; and at a later date, -ti- became -si- (so tyuute

>would have declined forms like tyuusin, etc.).  But the latter rule

doesn't

>operate in Quenya; so we have Maitimo, not *Maisimo; quetin, not *quesin.

>So in Quenya, the noun would have to be tyuute, dative case tyuutin.



I agree with David that the base should be changed to tyuuti-.



tyuute (tyuuti), n. thumb.



>  The same is true for the Qenya word for 'egg' that Edward cited earlier:

>ohte, stem oksi- (both from earlier *okti).  In Quenya, the word would

have

>to be ohte, stem ohti- (e.g., dative ohtin, instrumental ohtinen, and so

>on).  The Gnomish counterpart och suggests that the stem is *ok-, with a

>suffix *-ti.



I agree with David on ohte (ohti-) 'egg' in Modern Elvish.





EJK



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Edward Kloczko wrote:

>Qenya/Eldarissa is a tongue made by JRR Tolkien, so it is not just any

>other language. Modern Elvish is in a sense a "new" tongue, but I would

>like to keep as much as we can Qenya/Eldarissa into Modern Elvish as a

>tribute to the genius of JRRT.



     I agree, but I see that genius as manifested not only in the particular

forms of individual words in his languages, but in their relationships with

other words sharing the same root; other words of the same type (e.g., of

the same part of speech, with identical suffixes); and cognates or other

related words in other languages (like Sindarin).  I would like to keep all

those things in mind.



>>tyasa-, v. to test, to try, to pick, to choose.

>>tyasta-, v. to put to the test.

>>tyastava-, v.tr. to taste (at).



[me:]

>>   These words look as if they should come from a root *tyas- or *kyas-;if

>>so, the first verb should be not tyasa- but tyara-, since s between vowels

>>became -z-, then -r- in Quenya.  Only if the root is *tyath- would tyasa be

>>acceptable.



Edward:

>Since the cluster -st- in authorised in Quenya (alahasta), I would prefer

>to keep tyasa- so as to establish a family tyasa/tyasta/tyastava instead of

>tyar(a)- which will conflict with tyar- of Quenya.



    I am less worried about the apparent homonymy of tyar- "cause" and

*tyara- "try" (which is only a small problem, if they belong to different

conjugational classes with different forms: tyarin "I cause", tyaran "I

try", and so on) than with the lack of a coherent 'family' based on the

stem tyas-.  It is true that tyasa and tyasta _look_ more alike; but they

don't have a relationship that parallels that of other Quenya stems ending

in s, such as olos-, from which we get, on the one hand, olori "dreams",

and the name Oloorin, but also the adjective olosta "dreamy".  To me it

seems more attractive to have this consistent alteration of -r- between

vowels and s in some other situations (like before t) than to have the

visual consistency of s in both places, but a deeper inconsistency between

word families.



>So even if kaimasan (Ety, p. 387), with -asa-, is from kaima + sam-, and

>the rhotacism is common in Noldorin Quenya (s > z > r), I propose to keep

>these word unchanged in Modern Quenya. But it is a debate of taste, and as

>Tolkien said about Elvish : the changes in their language were oft made

>consciously.



     If kaimasan 'bedchamber' were derived from an original *kaimastamb, I

suppose it would have the form kaimastan in Quenya (cf. sandastan

'shield-barrier' from original *thandastam).  The form which actually

appears is evidently a later compound.

     But in early forms of Quenya (including that of the Noldor led by

Feanor), I guess the pronunciation of sambe "chamber" was *thambe; that is,

just as sp- had become f-, and sk- had become ch- (later h-), so also st-

had become th- in early Quenya.  -s- had become -z- long before the very

late change (documented in 'The Shibboleth of Feanor') of -th- to -s-; so

even an early compound *kaima-than could only have become kaimasan, never

**kaimaran.





>>>tyus (tyusc-), cud.

>>

>>  The stem of this word should perhaps be tyux- (tyuks-) in Quenya.

>

>This is I believe a really question of "personal" taste even if -sk- is not

>a cluster seen in Quenya. What do you think member of the Elfling?



    Actually -sk- is seen in Quenya (rusko 'fox') but is less common than

the metathesis -sk- > -ks-.



>tyux /tjuks/ or tyusc-.



    It wouldn't look like that, since Quenya wouldn't tolerate two

consonants at the end of a word.  Either it would be *tyuks > *tyuk > *tyut

or *tyusk > *tyus (the last being the same as in Qenya), both with

inflected forms tyuxin, tyuxinen, tyuxisse, etc.



/\     WISTR LAG WIGS RAIHTS

\/            WRAIQS NU IST                               <> David Salo

<dsalo@...> <>







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