Beregond. Anders =?iso-8859-1?Q?Stenstr=F6m?= scripsit:

> We know that a noun modifying a preceding imperative undergoes
> lenition when it is a direct object (_lasto beth_), but not when it is
> the subject (Gandalf assumed _mellon_ to be the subject of _pedo_,
> until he realised that it was an object that happened to be a literal
> string, so that lenition could not be applied).

Not the subject, but a vocative in apposition with the unexpressed
subject "you".

--
John Cowan           http://www.ccil.org/~cowan              cowan@...
Please leave your values        |       Check your assumptions.  In fact,
    at the front desk.           |          check your assumptions at the door.
      --sign in Paris hotel      |            --Miles Vorkosigan

The follow phrase from the LotR 2002 Daily calender is apparently spoken by
Elrond as the Fellowship departs Rivendel.

"Nai Tiruvantel ar varyuvantel I Valar tielyanna nu vilya. (Tr.: May the Valar
protect you on your path under the sky.) "

After a bit of thought I was able to discern the verbal phrase "nai (i Valar)
tiruva ar varyuva" 'may the Valar watch over and protect'.  This however leaves
the strange sequence -ntel for the meaning you.  Does anyone have any
suggestions as to its origin?

Namarie,
Cirk R. Bejnar
Eluchil

_____________________________________________________________
Free Email and register to win a free DVD player http://frodo.net

----- Original Message -----
From: "Cirk Bejnar" <eluchil@...>
To: <elfling@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 12:30 PM
Subject: [elfling] Movie Quenya!


> The follow phrase from the LotR 2002 Daily calender is apparently spoken
by Elrond as the Fellowship departs Rivendel.
>
> "Nai Tiruvantel ar varyuvantel I Valar tielyanna nu vilya. (Tr.: May the
Valar protect you on your path under the sky.) "
>
> After a bit of thought I was able to discern the verbal phrase "nai (i
Valar) tiruva ar varyuva" 'may the Valar watch over and protect'.  This
however leaves the strange sequence -ntel for the meaning you.  Does anyone
have any suggestions as to its origin?
>

Of course! the phrase nai tiruvantel ar  varyuvantel mean "may they (i.e.
the Valar) watch over and protect you" as you have discerned. The -ntel is a
combination of -nte, the pronominal suffix meaning "they" (when no subject
is previously mentioned, UT:317) and the -l is the pronominal suffix meaning
"you (pl.)", in this case used as the object, so tiruva-nte-l,
varyuva-nte-l. Istaina? Estelinyes.

John Cowan wrote:

> > (Gandalf assumed _mellon_ to be the subject of _pedo_,
> > until he realised that it was an object that happened to be a literal
> > string, so that lenition could not be applied).
>
> Not the subject, but a vocative in apposition with the unexpressed
> subject "you".

    If you wish, read "the expressed part of the subject phrase".

    Your description is grammatically orthodox, and I did think briefly
about it when I wrote what you quoted. To describe a word like
_friend_ in _speak, friend!_ as a subject, as I did, requires that you
also say that subjects with imperatives are a bit different from other
subjects (for instance, in a language with a vocative noun form it
will take that form). On the other hand, this description permits a
clause to change verb mode with its parts preserved: "Gandalf
(subject) goes (predicate)", "[lest] Gandalf (s.) go (p.)", "go (p.),
Gandalf (s.)!".

     Suilaid,

         Beregond

... My second try in Sidarin.

_cuio! an naid bain e-guil liin, velui..._
"Live! For every things of your life, lovely..."

cuio: v. imp. 'live'
an: prep. 'for'
naid: n. pl. 'thing'
bain: <pain, adj. pl. 'every'
e-guil: <cuil, n. 'life'
liin: adj. 'your'
velui: <melui, adj. 'lovely'

Seems O.K.? Indeed this is the last line of my
work-in-progress Sindarin translation.

PS. Thanks to Gildor who informed me _varya_, 'protect'.

PS2. After reading Mr.Salo's posting, I read the
articles word by word again, and found the decision
reasonable. Perhaps I was impatient. I must learn some
patience from Ents. ;-)

im so lost in this group, lol....i just joined and i have no where to start
the learning process =/

John Cowan <cowan@...> wrote on 6.9.2001 5:02:00:
>
>Beregond. Anders =?iso-8859-1?Q?Stenstr=F6m?= scripsit:
>
>> We know that a noun modifying a preceding imperative undergoes
>> lenition when it is a direct object (_lasto beth_), but not when it
>> is the subject (Gandalf assumed _mellon_ to be the subject of _pedo_,
>> until he realised that it was an object that happened to be a literal
>> string, so that lenition could not be applied).

>Not the subject, but a vocative in apposition with the unexpressed
>subject "you".

In Czech (at least as far as I know), a vocative noun this way connected
with a verb in imperative is regarded as the subject of this verb (it
is in fact the subject of the action requested).

Lukas

Jerry Caveney <jcaveney@...> wrote on 5.9.2001 16:27:23:

>......
>I don't think that Mr. Hostetter's long recent posting was a flame
>(unlike another recent posting by someone else, that received a
>warning).
>etc.......

I agree with Jerry Caveney almost in all respects.

Lukas

----- Original Message -----
From: <tinkyundrground@...>
To: <elfling@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 4:30 PM
Subject: Re: [elfling] My Sindarin Phrase


> im so lost in this group, lol....i just joined and i have no where to
start
> the learning process =/

Ok. So you want to learn Tolkien's languages (if that is what I assume you
want).

So to start, it will be worth it if you have read Tolkien's books first ,
most notably his epic The Lord of the Rings, which is experiencing a new
upsurge of popularity now that the new film is coming out this December. One
has to bear in mind that his languages are inseparable to his mythos: one
cannot understand the raison d'etre of his languages with the world in which
these languages are spoken. To tell you the truth, this is the way it got me
hooked. :)

Before making any inquiries in this list, I suggest you go to Helge
Fauskanger's website Ardalambion (http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf), which
outside the printed resources by and about Tolkien is without question the
best in the Web (although I sometimes disagree with him on some aspects,
nitpicker am I).

BTW, the easiest of Tolkien's languages to learn is Quenya, not explicitly
mentioned in LotR until the Appendices in volume III (The Return of the
King), but notable due to Galadriel's song in The Fellowship of the Ring,
Book II Chapter 8, aka "Namárie" (Farewell). Helge made a well-done Quenya
course which could be downloaded on his website (in Rich Text Format). But
it still has some gaps because of the relative lack of published information
(not Helge's fault of course: even the best of us have the same deficiency).
But by far it is the best attested of Tolkien's languages, and it is worth
studying because by itself it is a work of art.

Related to Quenya is Sindarin. I don't want to explain their relationships
to one another (go to Helge's website!--pay me for the endorsement
he!he!he!), except to say that the upcoming movie is peppered with phrases
in Sindarin. There is also Khuzdul, the secret language of the Dwarves, and
lots besides.

Of course, whatever gaps in knowledge that we have we discuss in this group,
no matter some of us come close to virtual fisticuffs (not me personally...I
hate violence).

If you still have questions, don't hesitate to post.

Estelin i fárea equétien. (I hope that I have said enough), i.e. for you to
begin.

I've read the books, many times in fact...just never really paid any
attention to actually noticing patterns in such in the language since i could
always look it up....but yes, your info is greatly appreaciated and immensely
useful. Thanks!

Eluchil deithant:

> The book is out of print but it shoulnd't be too hard to find a
used copy on, for example, ebay.  Amazon also has a service whereby
they will track down used copies for you.  Definately worth getting
if you have the chance.

Try also Daerons's Books and Tolkienwinkel. Both are on the net.
I have ordered from both, and can recommend them. (And, no,
Daeron's Books are not associated with the Mellonath Daeron).

Suilaid,
Gildir

Carl F. Hostetter was banned for three days for this sentence in his letter
to me:

> But since you seem to know only insult, arrogance, and self-serving
bullying, it is no surprise that you see and insinuate them everywhere
yourself.

Some have expressed doubts as to whether Hostetter should have been banned
for this. Since I am the "offended" party, I guess my own perspective may
be of interest.

In short, I think Hostetter should have received a warning, but he should
not have been banned. Of course, I find his impression of me rather
twisted, but the statement is after all slightly qualified by the wording
"you SEEM to..."

What I find most offensive in Hostetter's post is not anything he wrote
about me, but his remarks about a third party who is not on this list, but
who is nonetheless named and possibly even implied to be notoriously
unreliable ("of course, this trust was instantly violated" -- I think
Hostetter should be given the chance to explain what he means by "of
course").

- Helge Fauskanger

Cirk Bejnar finds the article in Wired Magazine one-sided:

> I find it unfortunate that no members of the Editorial Team were
interviewed.

So do I, and so, I believe, does the journalist who wrote the article. He
started to gather material and interview people already in spring this
year, but some people just weren't interested. As early as April, the
journalist approached ET members Arden Smith and Christopher Gilson for an
interview. They declined. I understand they cited some kind of
"sensitivity" to their "position"! When I spoke to the journalist, he
seemed quite perplexed by their attitude.

I myself provided the journalist with Bill Welden's e-mail address, since
Welden has been known to be more talkative -- but nothing came of that,
either. In the article, the journalist clearly indicates that the
Elfconners, as he calls them, TURNED DOWN requests for interviews.

I also know for a fact that the journalist tried to contact the Tolkien
Estate, to have their perspective on various matters. To the best of my
knowledge, the Estate totally ignored him, returning no phone calls and
answering no e-mails.

So you see, Cirk: if this article is one-sided, it is so by necessity. One
or several of the "sides" involved proved entirely unresponsive. If you
refuse to speak, you should not later be offended or surprised when it
turns out that your voice is not heard. Perhaps the Editorial Team, or
indeed the Estate, may find that their interests would be better served if
they were to assume a somewhat more forthcoming attitude.

Otherwise, you are correct. These interviews were conducted long before
anyone had thought of any replacement for the term "Elfconners" (and
anyway, I have explained that I don't understand why this term should be
perceived as abusive -- it is, or was, simply a piece of Tolkien-linguist
jargon). If the article refers to the Editorial Team as a "fan cabal", the
journalist didn't get this expression from me.

- Helge Fauskanger

Hello all,

Pardon my Elvish, I'm sure it is a bit rusty.  I have been learning
Sindarin for only a little while, but I love it.  I am compiling a
word list, and maybe a translator, still underway.  Now it is finding
time to use it and really learn it.  Maybe this group will be
helpful, maybe I can help others!

eglerio Illuvatar!
Quendeatan

Thank you, Ms. Salo, for your post. Let me say first that I believe your
running of this list is greatly underappreciated, just as is Mr.
Bradford's for running the TLL. All the scholarship which these lists
generate, and perhaps more importantly, disseminate, would not occur
without someone like you to bother to handle all the mechanics of
running a list, not to mention taking abuse for doing so. So, thank you,
Ms. Salo (and thank you, Mr. Bradford, as well). It should not require
an incident such as this for us members of the list to remember to thank
you now and then. In this I am as remiss as anyone.

As for joining the managerial team, thank you for the invitation, and I
will accept your offer if the MT as a whole is comfortable with it.
There may be a technical problem or two, but I will mention those in a
private email to you. Here, let me explain why I did not previously
volunteer (and why I did not participate in the voting on the question
of how the list should be managed, to respond to Mr. Salo's pointing
out, in another post, how few folks participated in that vote).

I did think seriously about volunteering when the MT was set up, just as
I thought seriously about voting before that on the question of how the
list should be managed. In both cases I decided that the decisions
should be left up to the 'active' members of the list, particularly
those with the knowledge (and willingness) to make positive
contributions to the list. Like many others, I read and benefit from the
list, but my posts are only questions or peripheral comments. The one or
two times I have made actual suggestions about interpretation of
Tolkien's languages, here or on TLL, it has quickly become apparent that
they are not informed by enough knowledge of the subject to make them
likely of any value.

Those who can and do make substantive contributions on the languages
themselves are the lifeblood of the list. Without them, none of us would
learn anything about Tolkien's languages (other than directions to other
sources, such as Mr. Fauskanger's amazing and unparalleled website). So,
I felt it was they who should have primary voice in deciding how the
list should be managed, and in actually managing it. I still feel that
is true on such matters as deciding how the list should be managed, but
have changed my mind on offering to join the MT since recent events have
shown, it seems to me, that perhaps there is a place for a 'neutral'
party, even though inactive in the scholarship, to assist in the
overseeing of the posts on the list. If I am, in fact, added to the MT,
my only goal will be to foster scholarship and its dissemination on this
list in the field of Tolkien's invented languages. How I think we may
best do that I will discuss a bit in a post in response to Mr. Salo's.
(And, perhaps, you may wish to read that before finally deciding on
whether to add me to the MT. :) )

Jerry Caveney

P.S. To the degree a post such as this may be distracting or boring to
the membership of the list, I apologize.

Aiya!

   What's the difference in use of _laa_ vs. _la_?

Namaarie! S.Y., Elenhil Laiquendo

Gildor wrote:

> I have begun with "An introduction to Elvish" Which is
> the best book ever (but very old and outdated, you
> dont need to lok for it since you can get from the Web
> all the info you know) while "The languages of Middle
> earth" is maybe the worst book ever, as they say :)

argh, well, at least it hooked me, so I discovered ardalambion, and that
hooked me to the last :)

so, why is An introduction to Elvish out of date??

> Helge's course is very good for beginners (and not
> only).. following some of its lessons you are able
> already to understand and form Quenya phrases

well, to introduce people on what I know, I'm just about lesson 6. I know
some basic things about Quenya for "The languages of ME", but I'm fairly
basic. for example, most of the super-technical aspects I've seen here are
Chinese to me :) but I'm interested in learning, I swear!

> As you might know, "Qenya" is not the "Ancient Quenya"
> but the "immature" form of the language in the early
> 20th century...

well, that is what I told before about my poor English, I meant ancient in
the meaning of ancient in this century... not Ancient in capital letter... I
don't know if there's a better word...

> its Lexicon was published in one issue of Parma
> Eldalamberon and you can contact the publisher to see
> if you can get it

mmmmm, I can understand that means Book of the Languages of Elves, but I
don't know what is that? a periodical publication? how to get it? and well,
is BillWelden one of the publishers?

(about RGEO)

> you can't get it but you can download it in electronic
> form from some sites

I, as Lola Lee, prefer my books printed, so I'm going to try to find it in
Internet... but I find it difficult! I've seen some Spanish names in this
list, any Spanish here can help me to get a RGEO?

> > Namarië
> It's Namaarie with long aa :)

Isn't it written Namárië with an accent?

> > Omar Díez
> > Telpelantir (Silver Waterfall), Noldor Bard on
> > Middle-Earth's RPG
> Noldor is the plural form.. you mean Noldo Bard, or
> you can say Noldorin Bard

yeah, I meant Noldorin...

> > Kalnur (he who loves Light), Paladin on Diablo II
> Caldur maybe

mmmmm. I think that the K may be used sometimes, isn't it? I liked the K in
initial position for my name. and I understood that -dur and -nur are
synonims on "lover", aren't they?

(about my Quenya proto-poems)
> > I want to
> > polish them before I let you dissect them :)
> I would certainly wait for them!

They are written under some wrong assumptions, so I will re-write them and
then let you correct me :)

Bill Welden wrote:
> Su Inglés es mejor que mi Español.  Bienvenido!
Well, your Spanish don't seem so bad! :)

> I speak for myself.  Not for the team.  Certainly not for the estate.

Thanx for your response. I think I've understood what are you doing, and
what is the situation. Two more things. What is the difference between
Editorial Team and Tolkien Estate (ET-TE  ;))

Also, I think i understand your vision of the non-existence of Mature
Quenya? is that universal vision or people dissents??

Gildir wrote:
> Try also Daerons's Books and Tolkienwinkel. Both are on the net.
> I have ordered from both, and can recommend them. (And, no,
> Daeron's Books are not associated with the Mellonath Daeron).

where can I find that resources?

Finally, to Dorothea, David, and the Manager Team of the list. I would like
to be part of the list, but I'm obviously too newbie, both to the list and
to Elvish Languages, tothat responsability. as I think you are seeing with
this message, I like to collaborate and will participate (often too much!!
:)). If after some time, somebody wants me to get into the Manager Team,
I'll be glad. I'm not newbie to lists, I'm in more than 10 of them (about
other themes), and I'm even manager of one. So I know some things aboutthat.

For now, I'll try to collaborate with the managers. Dissenting with some
people of the list, I think that Helge just used sarcasm, a valid thing in
civilized argument (it was the main recourse of Socrates). I think that Carl
was scalating the argument, and virtually, it will get a flame. So, I agree
with Dorothea that the borderline has to be somewhere. Maybe I disagree with
a 3-day ban, even with antecedents, for his actions, but maybe it is.

I think that's all for today, thanks for all the (civilized ;)) responses

Well, read you all

Namárië (right now? :))

Omar Díez

<Warning: the following is a very long, and for many, perhaps, boring
post. You have been warned. Proceed at your own risk. :) >

Thank you, Mr. Salo, for your thorough and detailed explanation of your
actions as member of the list's management team. I do not agree with all
your conclusions, as I will explain below, but I appreciate your
spelling out the criteria you used. I wish here to comment on the
actions you took (and didn't take), and to put forth some ideas on how
the list should be managed by the MT, especially since there is the
possibility I may become a member of that team. I do not address the
topic of lack of participation in the voting on a management system or
volunteering to be a manager, since I covered those in my post
responding to Ms. Salo.

First, the situation with Mr. Hostetter and Mr. Fauskanger. Let me begin
by making clear that in my post of concern about how this was handled I
did not object to the banning of Mr. Hostetter. I happen to think that
that was not the best course of action, but did not say so in my post.
What I did object to was what I perceived (and still perceive) as
unequal treatment of two posters to the list. That said, let us look at
the specifics. You cite eight violations of the "flame prohibition" in
Mr. Hostetter's post. Five of them involve characterization of Mr.
Fauskanger's opinions as uninformed or insidious. I do not consider
saying this to be a flame. (I don't think it should be said, as I shall
explain below, but imo it is not a flame.) It certainly *is* baiting. To
say an opinion is uninformed can be an honest statement of evaluation of
another's position. There are certainly better ways to express that
belief, in the interest of civility, but it is not inherently a flame,
imo. Likewise, to describe a statement as insidious is not beneficial to
the list, but sarcasm is often indeed insidious, and as you and Ms. Salo
have both pointed out, Mr. Fauskanger is a master of sarcasm, be it
intentional or otherwise. Thus, my opinion that these five statements
are baiting rather than flaming.

As for "assaulting the estate", I think using the word 'assault' is
baiting, but again not a flame. As best I can judge the actual facts of
this matter, I don't think Mr. Hostetter is correct, but I see no attack
on Mr. Fauskanger in this statement. The other two quotes, one with
"insult, arrogance, and self-serving bullying", the other with "you
don't know what you're talking about", I do agree, are indeed flames.
They are much less vicious flames than Mr. Hostetter has himself used in
the past, if memory serves, and I think that is relevant, as I shall
explain below, though it does not excuse them in any way.

And what about Mr. Fauskanger's post? I do not have the full post
readily available to me, alas, so I will comment only on the four
quotations you provide. "Wealthy Tolkiens" I believe is certainly an
attack... not on Mr. Hostetter, but on Mr. Christopher Tolkien. It is a
bait rather than a flame, and given that I do not like seeing Mr.
Tolkien maligned, given all he has done for Tolkien scholarship (where
would we be without his labor of love, the twelve volumes of HoME??),
how much more must such a statement bait Mr. Hostetter, who is much
closer to Mr. C. Tolkien than I, a mere reader of his works. "Holy
Publication Plan" it seems to me is again a personal attack; it just
happens to be directed at several people, all the members of the ET, not
just Mr. Hostetter. Again, it is baiting, not a flame, as sarcasm
generally is. "Arrogant dismissal" I put in the same category as
"uninformed" and "insidious". It may be accurate, but it is baiting, and
the idea can be expressed in much more civil terms if it need be
expressed at all. Perhaps the greatest perception of unevenness in your
evaluation of the two posts (perception, mind you... I do not claim in
any way that you intended this) is that you cite the phrase "perceived
as" as a mitigating circumstance. I don't think that such qualifiers
truly lessen baits or flames, but if you do, then why did you not
comment on the use of "seem(s)" in three of Mr. Hostetter's eight quoted
'violations'? Finally, there is the "vulgar masses" quote. Agreed, it is
technically directed at Mr. Fauskanger himself (and others perceived on
'his side'). But it is subtly, as I see it, indeed meant to irritate Mr.
Hostetter. As mentioned above, Mr. Fauskanger is very good at this,
whether intentionally or through his natural mode of expressing himself.
And if my opinion is correct, then this too is an example of baiting.

So, where does this leave us? Both posters, imo, baited each other. Mr.
Hostetter did, in two instances, indeed flame Mr. Fauskanger. Relatively
mild flames, more restrained than at least one previous post of his, but
flames nonetheless, and unacceptable. So I still see the whole situation
as I did before. The ban on Mr. Hostetter may or may not have been the
best action for the MT to take (more on that below), but not 'censoring'
Mr. Fauskanger in any way when Mr. Hostetter was banned still seems
uneven treatment to me, and gives the perception of treating the ET
differently than others.

That said, let me turn to my second topic, how I think the MT should
handle posts in general. I begin by noting that invective and sarcasm
have had a place in written discourse, even in literary discourse, for
well over two millenia. Aristophanes and Catullus are obvious ancient
examples, Jonathan Swift one of the most famous from the modern era. But
the purpose of this list is not literary. The list exists, as I see it,
to foster scholarship on Tolkien's invented languages, and dissemination
of that scholarship. That end is best served if no one who posts here
feels he or she will be personally attacked or held up to ridicule. To
that end, anything that is a personal attack, or fosters personal
attacks, should be avoided. The list, by open vote, decided that an
"after the fact" management team should be the method to try to achieve
this. So, I believe, the first duty of the MT should be to point out,
and object to, any post that either attacks, or fosters attack. Thus not
only flames but also baiting, and, in general, sarcasm, in any post
should be publicly noted by the MT and the poster requested to desist
from the same in the future.

And what about banning? Banning is not intended to erase errors of
flaming (or, as I believe it should be as well, baiting and sarcasm)
that have already been posted. Since posts are not removed from the
archive for these violations (unless the author so requests), this seems
clear. Nor are they meant to make such posts impossible in the future,
or else the bans would be permanent. Rather they are a public, and so,
imo, humiliating, condemnation of a poster for unacceptable language in
his or her post. It is said that they are meant to give the poster time
to consider using more appropriate language, but I suspect that the
space of one or three days will not like change the poster's attitude.
Indeed, the public humiliation is more likely I would think to make them
more angry and so more prone to flaming, etc. Thus I see the current use
of banning as rather a 'punishment' than a deterrent.

Thus, I think that for the most part, public notice by the MT of a
poster's inappropriate language, with the warning that continued abuse
of the list rules will not be tolerated, is the most effective tool for
the MT. If a poster continues with the violations of list rules, then
consideration should be given to whether the violations remain just as
bad (or worse) or if they show improvement. If there is improvement, a
further public warning may well bring the poster to within acceptable
parameters. (This is why I think that Mr. Hostetter's lessening of his
language in the recent post, compared to an earlier post, is relevant.)
If these public notices do not restrain the poster, then I believe the
poster should be banned, not as 'punishment', but to keep his/her posts
from reaching the list. Thereafter, the poster should have to submit his
posts to the MT privately, for "before the fact" approval, before they
may be posted to the list. After one or two acceptable such posts, the
ban may be lifted. Such banning should not be used until the poster has
been warned at least twice, and perhaps not until there have been three
or more warnings if improvement has initially been seen.

I also think that consideration should be given to removing unacceptable
posts (flaming, baiting, sarcasm) from the archive. The poster should be
given the opportunity to rewrite the post in acceptable form for
inclusion in the archive. In this way, we do not permit what we consider
posts detrimental to the purpose of the list to remain available in
their unacceptable form. I realize other considerations must be taken
into account in deciding what should be the rules for the archive, but
perhaps we should at least discuss the value of this suggestion.

Finally (yes, finally :) ), let me say that I present my ideas about how
the MT should work, not as a condition for my joining the MT, but as a
suggestion on how I personally think it should work. I think it only
fair that my opinions on this subject be known before I am considered
for inclusion in that team. Whatever rules the MT continues or
implements, I will be happy to join the team if asked to, and to serve
on it as long as I do not find my duties conflicting with my sense of
what is right and wrong (which I would not expect to happen).

For any and all who have bothered to plow through all this, my thanks...
and my appreciation to you for your tenacity.

Jerry Caveney

Omar Díez wrote:


> so, why is An introduction to Elvish out of date??



See <http://www.elvish.org/resources.html#SecondaryBooks_anchor> for
more information.  Also, your questions about the available publications
(PE, VT) can be found at this site.


----
Lola J. Lee
work:  llee@... - http://www.qrc.com
home:  lola@... - http://www.his.com/~lola/ljl.html

----- Original Message -----
From: "Boris Shapiro" <elenhil@...>
To: "Elfling" <elfling@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 8:16 PM
Subject: [elfling] _laa_/_la_ usage


> Aiya!
>
>   What's the difference in use of _laa_ vs. _la_?
>
> Namaarie! S.Y., Elenhil Laiquendo
>
>
>

Hmmmm..... well, Boris, I think the difference is that lá is an independent
negative interjection meaning "no" or "not", pertaining to denial of fact
(in contrast to vá which pertains to refusal or prohibition) and la- (and
its variant ala-) exists as a negative prefix similar to ú-, as in
Alamanyar, lakare (n., cf. lá karitas "not doing it") and alasaila; únat,
úvanea, Úmanyar and úquétima. In similar vein we have ava- (vb.) "*refuse,
prohibit", and as a prefix, avaquétima, avanyárima but cf. váquete (vb.)
"say no (not denial of fact but refusal to do something)".

Omar Díez deithant:
>Gildor wrote:
> > "The languages of Middle
> > earth" is maybe the worst book ever, as they say :)
>
>argh, well, at least it hooked me,

If it hooked you, I guess it served its purpose, so welcome! But it really
IS a deplorable book!

> > > Namarië
> > It's Namaarie with long aa :)
>
>Isn't it written Namárië with an accent?

Yes, normally, but some people's browsers don't read HTML and accented
characters turn up as question marks or other distracting characters. So the
practice of using doubled vowels to represent length has been adopted by
many. Personally, I think the doubled vowels are distracting and, to use a
word used by Tolkien regarding certain orthographical conventions,
'uncouth'.
>
> > > Kalnur (he who loves Light), Paladin on Diablo II
> > Caldur maybe
>
>mmmmm. I think that the K may be used sometimes, isn't it? I liked the K in
>initial position for my name. and I understood that -dur and -nur are
>synonims on "lover", aren't they?

Actually, JRRT used 'k' sometimes to represent the tengwa 'calma' (e.g.
Kementári, Tulkas, Melkor), but generally used 'c' to make his spelling
closer to Latin spelling conventions (and Latin occasionally used 'k',
also). -dur and -nur are both from -ndur, but after a liquid (l or r), the
form -dur should be used. Kaldur would, in my opinion, be acceptable.

Cuio mae! (¡Viva bien!) - Danny.

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Jerry Caveney wrote:
>I also think that consideration should be given to removing unacceptable
>posts (flaming, baiting, sarcasm) from the archive. The poster should be
>given the opportunity to rewrite the post in acceptable form for
>inclusion in the archive. In this way, we do not permit what we consider
>posts detrimental to the purpose of the list to remain available in
>their unacceptable form. I realize other considerations must be taken
>into account in deciding what should be the rules for the archive, but
>perhaps we should at least discuss the value of this suggestion.

I find the idea that offenders should be able to edit their offending posts
in the archive mildy disturbing. This for two reasons; it would make it
impossible, for both the Moderation Team and normal listmembers, to quoth
these posts as evidence of earlier offences (I think we all agree that a
first offence is less severe than a repeated one), and I also find it
principially suspect to to manipulate the archive in any way - it should,
IMHO, be a faithful representation of the traffic on this list. If I were in
charge I'd also refuse to remove old posts (bar for multiple posts and
outright spam), tho' the current Moderation Team obviously thinks otherwise.

Despte this, I think that Jerry would be valuable addition to the Moderation
Team.

                                                      Andreas

PS Lest Dorothea get any ideas, no, I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to take
the time to be a List Manager. I'm struggling hard enough to keep up with
most of the discussions on the list without having to worry aboyt whether
message X deserves a warning.


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--- "Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@...>
> wrote:
>Cirk Bejnar finds the article in Wired Magazine one-sided:
>
>> I find it unfortunate that no members of the Editorial Team were
>interviewed.
>
>So do I, and so, I believe, does the journalist who wrote the article. He
>started to gather material and interview people already in spring this
>year, but some people just weren't interested. As early as April, the
>journalist approached ET members Arden Smith and Christopher Gilson for an
>interview. They declined. I understand they cited some kind of
>"sensitivity" to their "position"! When I spoke to the journalist, he
>seemed quite perplexed by their attitude.

It seems explicable to me but unfortunate.  People hate to see themselves
misrepresented in print which is almost invariabley the case, it seems.  The
members of the editorial team also, based on their prior statments, wish to
avoid any remarks as being misinterpreted, or misrepresented, as being official
responces of the team or of the estate.  But Bill has already spoken for
himself.

<snip>
>So you see, Cirk: if this article is one-sided, it is so by necessity. One
>or several of the "sides" involved proved entirely unresponsive. If you
>refuse to speak, you should not later be offended or surprised when it
>turns out that your voice is not heard. Perhaps the Editorial Team, or
>indeed the Estate, may find that their interests would be better served if
>they were to assume a somewhat more forthcoming attitude.

They have not indicated their own offence it is rather I.  I was not approached
for an interview, no reason why I should have been, and didn't know that the
article would have linguistic content.

>Otherwise, you are correct. These interviews were conducted long before
>anyone had thought of any replacement for the term "Elfconners" (and
>anyway, I have explained that I don't understand why this term should be
>perceived as abusive -- it is, or was, simply a piece of Tolkien-linguist
>jargon). If the article refers to the Editorial Team as a "fan cabal", the
>journalist didn't get this expression from me.
>- Helge Fauskanger

I treid to imply that I would be suprised if he had, thus my charge of
sensationalism.  I simply view it as an unfortunate event and have no intrest in
assigning blame, especially to you or David.

Namarie,
Eluchil

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Hi all,

I'm relatively new to Tolkien's Languages, and
generally pressed for time (although I try :) ).  I've
been part of the list for a while and must say that
I've found many of the discussions very informative.

I'm trying to find a translation for "alien" - from
outer space...

Admitedly my elvish is not very good... but this is
what I've come up with so far.  Any suggestions would
be very welcome.  I'm attempting to translate "not of
this world" into Quenya.

world = Ambar
not = U
of = yar

To get "Uambaryar".  I haven't been able to find
anything on "this" ... is it used?

Thanks,
Nick

=====
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.

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On Thu, 6 Sep 2001, Jerry Caveney wrote:

> "Wealthy Tolkiens" I believe is certainly an
> attack... not on Mr. Hostetter, but on Mr. Christopher Tolkien. It is a
> bait rather than a flame,

It is true, so I cannot see how it is either one.

> closer to Mr. C. Tolkien than I, a mere reader of his works. "Holy
> Publication Plan" it seems to me is again a personal attack; it just
> happens to be directed at several people, all the members of the ET, not
> just Mr. Hostetter.

I cannot agree that condemnation of a measure is condemnation of the
people who support that measure.  If I say that your plan is foolish
or ill-conceived or dangerous, that is not a condemnation of you,
only of your plan.

Helge K. Fauskanger wrote:

> > Who knows, maybe it should undergo lenition: _cuio vae_?
>
> Perhaps it could, but since Tolkien explicitly stated that the M > V
> lenition was sometimes ignored (cf. Imlad Melui and Ered Mithrin rather
> than ...Velui, ...Vithrin), _cuio mae_ must be a valid sentence anyway.

    There is also a canonical text with an unlenited adverbial in _m-_:
_penna miiriel_. The adverbial in that case is a participle and not an
adverb, but would that make any difference in regard to lenition?

     Suilad,

         Beregond

> Subject: [elfling] o inganna na Istari en-beth

I dont understand _inganna_ but did you mean something
"from the highest to the wizards of words"? ingan and
Istari are Quenya.. I would say "o amvrand na Ithryn
in-bith" :)

>Pardon my Elvish, I'm sure it is a bit rusty.  I have
been learning
>Sindarin for only a little while, but I love it.  I
am compiling a
>word list, and maybe a translator, still underway.
Now it is finding

that's nice.. I dont want to spoil your excitement,
however the best dictionary I have seen is Didier
Wilis' Dictionary, a bit outdated now after the recent
VT#42. Ryszard Derdzinski has also made one (Gobeth e
lam Edhellen) which I havent seen but I dont doubt it
is equally good. you can see the former at
www.geocities.com/almacq.geo/sindar/index.html and you
can order the latter at www.elvish.org/gwaith. You can
study Sindarin etymology and phonology rules from
there, which can help you make a good job...

>time to use it and really learn it.  Maybe this group
will be
>helpful, maybe I can help others!

of course we are always happy to help others and
showing off our knowledge (ok I am talking about me)
:PPP

>eglerio Illuvatar!

Iluuvatar with one l and long u. However its Quenya..
you can use a constructed equivalent, Painadar.

>Quendeatan

Quendatan rather



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>I'm trying to find a translation for "alien" - from
>outer space...

>world = Ambar
>not = U
>of = yar

>To get "Uambaryar".  I haven't been able to find
>anything on "this" ... is it used?

its long u and the suffix is -ya... plus that uu and a
are merged, so Uumbarya (cf. Uumanyar). Its a good
rendering but in case you prefer something referring
to "out" use the preposition et: Etambarya...


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>argh, well, at least it hooked me, so I discovered
ardalambion, and
>that
>hooked me to the last :)
>
>so, why is An introduction to Elvish out of date??

ITE (as we call it) was a very good book but it was
published in 1975 I think, referring only to the
Quenya and Sindarin known in LOTR. In spite the
limited knowledge of that time, the research was quite
good and they managed to explore even Elvish
etymology. Since then though, uncountable information
on grammar, vocabulary and etymology has been known
from various sources (Vinyar Tengwar, Parma
Eldalamberon, other Tolkien works like Silmarillion,
Unfinished Tales, History of mE) and the knowledge we
have now can't be compared to the theories that ITE
provides...

There are some other interesting chapters in ITE, like
an analysis of the Rohirric and Hobbitish names, and
the chapter on the tengwar and runes is good also (not
much further info on them has been revealed since
then)

>basic. for example, most of the super-technical
aspects I've seen here
>are
>Chinese to me :) but I'm interested in learning, I
swear!

Helge's course is very analytic and explains simply
every linguistic term so as to understand them
everyone... I haven't studied any linguistics (and I
was bad at school) but my association with Tolkien
made me to know these terms and even understand how
languages work!

> As you might know, "Qenya" is not the "Ancient
Quenya"
> but the "immature" form of the language in the early
> 20th century...

>well, that is what I told before about my poor
English, I meant ancient
>in
>the meaning of ancient in this century... not Ancient
in capital
>letter... I
>don't know if there's a better word...

yes, we use the term immature or early or just "Qenya"
with single Q and quotations. I think the "Qenya"
period ends in late 1930's

> its Lexicon was published in one issue of Parma
> Eldalamberon and you can contact the publisher to
see
> if you can get it

>mmmmm, I can understand that means Book of the
Languages of Elves, but
>I
>don't know what is that? a periodical publication?
how to get it? and
>well,
>is BillWelden one of the publishers?

the correct form is Eldalambion, but this magazine
started its publication before the exact rules of how
the nouns ending in -e form their plurals were known,
so this wrong name remained..
It's a periodical (rather an un-periodical)
publication but I don't know much about it... you can
find easily info...

> > Namarië
> It's Namaarie with long aa :)

>Isn't it written Namárië with an accent?

the accent shows long vowels. We can show it with
doubling them... I am Greek and I have problems seeing
characters with accents so I use (and prefer to see
used) this method. eg. for e with dots I see the greek
letter for lamda (I see "namaril" with the last l
greek!) but I know hereafter what to read whenever I
see lamda :)

> > Kalnur (he who loves Light), Paladin on Diablo II
> Caldur maybe

>mmmmm. I think that the K may be used sometimes,
isn't it? I liked the
>K in
>initial position for my name. and I understood that
-dur and -nur are
>synonims on "lover", aren't they?

No, it's not wrong using K, I just showed the other
way to write it... It's totally a matter of
preference... -dur would be the correct form though
(or K/Calendur) which means "servant of light"... for
"lover" use K/Calendil.

(to Bill Welden)
>Also, I think i understand your vision of the
non-existence of Mature
>Quenya? is that universal vision or people dissents??

As I said, some people make this distinction.. they
refer to anything belonging in LOTR and thereafter as
Mature. The primary directive is "the later the
better" and the secondary is "as long as the later
doesn't contradicts what is published in LOTR".

Bill Welden is against this distinction. From his
wordings I think he means that even in his latest
days, Tolkien didn't ever come to the "full" stage of
Quenya: even the latest pronoun tables (as he namely
referred) are inconsistent... maybe Quenya is an
incomplete language :(

>Namárië (right now? :))

Perfect.. and now to something harder: merin sa
haryalye alasse tenn' enomentielma


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