>"Si," quete Rehin, "ne nauco estaina Andwari, i oi
marne sa lantasiresse, ya estaine Andwaro lantasire,

“Si,” quete Rehin, “eane nauco estaina Andwari, I oi
marne ta lantasiresse, ya estaina Andwaro lantasire
I think eane should be used as existive… ‘there is’.
Ta is ‘that’

>i ne ve nenraca, ar nente apsa eron, an limbe halar
ner i lantasiresse

I ne ve nenraca, ar haryane apsa son, an limbe halar
neer lantasiresse
I put haryane because the meaning of ‘got’ is rather
‘had’. Son as ‘for himself’ could be the correct form
(whch you use in a later point) :)

>si Sirehuo, toronnya, oi haryane haime minne i
lantasirenna, ar tulye halar cemenna, ar metyane te
mine entonna mine i ravasse

Si Sirehuo, torninya, oi haitane lelya lantasirenna,
ar tulyane halar cemenna, ar metyane mine ar mine
ravanna
As I pointed in the prveious post, toron is a word
that is declined as torn-. I used here my
reconstructed verb *haita- ‘use to’. Derived verbs in
–ta or –ya form their past with –ne. I used mine ar
mine to express ‘one by one’, because I try not using
“Qenya” forms

>Ar san Odin, Loci, ar Hoenir, lumesse vantanente
tientasse, tulne Andwaro lantasirenna, ar Sirehuo
enetie salmo lingwe

San Ondin (Otin), Loci, ar Hoenir, vantale tientassen,
tuller Andwaro lantasirenna, ar Sirehuo ahartie salmo
lingwe
There is no d in Quenya, so I rendered Odin. I used
the participle vantala in the plural (tentatively, as
it hasn’t been attested in the plural). Tientassen is
plural. Verbs without pronoun suffixes agree with
number  to theis subject, so vala tulle, but valar
tuller. Now I made a verb *harta- ‘take’ instead of
the “Qenya” net-

>ar matnes fumala i ravanna; san Loci nente ondo ar
[cast] ta Sirehuonna, sina ne i tie vanwaro

Ar mante ta fumala ravanna; san Loci hartane ondo ar
hectane ta Sirehuonna, ar haryane nururya ve ta (tave)
The n of –ne merges with the last letter of the verb
stem. So mat+ne=mante, tap+ne=tampe, tac+ne=tance,
tul+ne=tulle. You used mantes as ‘he ate it’ but the
meaning is ‘he ate’. I used the verb hecta- for
‘throw’. I used nururya but I dont think an Elf would
like two continuous ur’s… Maybe it should be
simplified to *nurya??

>i valar ner valin an raimenta, ar yesetyane honenie i
sirehuohelma; ar andunesse tulnente coanna Hritmaro

I valar neer alassie raimento, ar yesetyaner honenie I
sirehuohelma; ar anduunesse tullente coanna Hriitmaro
I used the plural of alassea for ‘happy’ and put
raimenta in genitive to show “reason”

>ar tananente sonna i nat enetiente: an yana metyanero
maryar or te, ar raccne te sina nat

Ar tananente sonna ya ahartiente: yan metyanes maryat
ten, ar hractaneryet nanwendan sa
I use metyanes rather than metyanero, because I think
–ro is an old form. At least –s is attested in later
sources… I believe its extended form is –rye (< zye <
sye). so if you want an extended form use metyanerye.
Maryat ‘his 2 hands’ (look in Namaarie). Ten ‘to them’
(or means rather ‘above’). I reconstructed a verb
*hracta- from the sindarin rhach. There is in PPQ a
word for ransom nanwenda form S. danwedh. Sa ‘that…….’
(cf merin sa… ‘I wish that…')

>maurente quatie i sirehuohelma maltanen, ar untupas
la carne maltanen; an yana tultanente Loci hostie ten
ilya

Maurente quatie I sirehuohelma maltanen, ar untuupie
ta laa carne maltanen; yan tultanente Loci yohostien
ten malta
Hm.. maure is the need, its use as ‘should’ is
tentative but we dont have any other choice… I used
untuupie instead of untupa according to quatie. *yan
‘for that’.

>tulneronna Ran, ar nente raimarya, ar apa yana lende
Andwaro lantasirenna

Tulles Ranna, ar hartane raimarya, apa yana lende
Andwaro lantasirenna
Tulles ‘he came’ Ranna ‘to Ran’.. why tulneronna???

>ar [cast] i raima har i nenraca, ar i nenraca linta
vantane i raimanna ar nenine. Apa yana eque Loci

Ar hectane I raima antave nenraco, ar I nenraca
lintave lende I raimanna ar hartaina. apa yana Loci
eque -
I am not content with har becase its “Qenya” and I
reconstructed antave ‘frontly’ from anta ‘face’+ve.
Andave ‘longly’ shows the proverbial ending –ve.
lintave ‘quickly’. Hartaina ‘taken’. Eque always
follows the subject

generally... the article i shouldnt be used that often


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Carl Hostetter has been banned from posting to Elfling due to
the use of gratuitous insult in message #5982, such as the
following:
     "(But since you seem to know only insult, arrogance, and
self-serving bullying, it is no surprise that you see and insinuate
them everywhere yourself.)"
     Since Mr. Hostetter has already been subject to this sanction,
this ban occurs without additional warning and will be in place
for three days.

     David Salo
     List Manager

I was going to bring the Wired article to the attention of the list but since
Carl has already done so I will limit myself to a few comments.

I find it unfortunate that no members of the Editorial Team were interviewed. 
As it is the article is not only one sided but, I suspect, sensationalized. 
That is many of the characterizations are stronger than those that Helge or
David Salo have made recently to the list.

While this whole affair, and those that preceded it, is a sad and sorry
business.  But I can see nothing to be gained by the 'Elfconners' beeing refered
to as a "fan cabal", except the alienation of other fans from discovering the
wonders of Tolkien's languages.  Indeed the term 'Elfconners' had, I had
thought, slipped into merciful oblivion, since it had been replaced by the
self-selected phrase Editorial Teem (ET).  I do not wish to insinuate that Helge
and/or David is responsible for either of these features of the article.  "Fan
cabal" is treated as the writers own description and since the interviews were
conducted some time ago the ET usage might not have been developed.

Peace (we need some of it),
Cirk R. Bejnar
Eluchil



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At 6:37 PM -0700 9/4/01, Cirk Bejnar wrote:

>I was going to bring the Wired article to the attention of the list
>but since Carl has already done so I will limit myself to a few
>comments.

Where can I find the Wired article?  I looked for it at the website
but couldn't find it, even after performing a search.

I agree, it is unfortunate that the other side was not interviewed,
but perhaps there were reasons why this didn't happen.  There's
always two sides of the story, you know.

This is just what I had warned about months ago, and I'm afraid as
the premiere date gets closer, there's going to be more attention
paid to the Tolkien genre, and I'd really hate for this
	 quarrel to be bought into publicity if it hasn't been
resolved by then.

By the way, how does one pronounce your name, Cirk?  With a soft or hard "c"?


Lola - mailto:lola@...
Gospodi pomilui | Lord have Mercy
http://www.his.com/~lola/ljl.html | ICQ: 14914550
I'm in Bowie, MD, USA, halfway between DC and Annapolis.

Aiya!

Well, I'm a Spanish boy from Barcelona, I've just subscribed to this
list and I wanted to say hello. I've read the FAQ and so on, so I'm glad
I won't be flamed for my bad English :) just keep in mind it's not my
mother tongue, and I've got to make an effort to communicate in it. But
the list seemed so interesting... :)

I'm studying Quenya, I was introduced by Ruth S. Noel's "The Languages
of Tolkien's Middle-Earth", then discovered it was quite inaccurate when
I started surfing the web looking for references, and discovered (among
others) Ardalambion. I think the webmaster is around here, too, so I
want to thank you for your time dedicated to the page, and make you know
that the Spanish translated version is very accurate. Also from there I
downloaded a Quenya course that I'm trying to complete (I recommend it
from my ignorance). I've got some little Quenya poems, forming a "cycle"
where each one is dedicated to one special girl (they like that very
much!! :)) but they're very rough for the linguist point of view, so I
want to polish them before I let you dissect them :)

Finally, in the days I've been here, I've seen some strange things...
for example, this Bill Welden speaks as if he is an official source, can
somebody (Bill himself?) explain where he works and such things?Also, I
have to agree with Helge on his arguments against the secretecism (hope
that exists) for non-published material... it was supposed that the
movies are copyright-approved, so why not apporting every paper ever
written for its bits of language? Yes, the correction will only matter
to a small group of "linguists", but I think this is the group that buys
most of the new-published material. And about this, what exactly is the
Qenya Lexicon? a "dictionary" of archaic Quenya? English-Qenya? or what?
and isn't it a bit unuseful, just talking about ancient, and not about
mature Quenya?? and is there any way to get it here in Spain? and what
about Road Goes Ever On? Everybody says it's imprescindible, but I think
(readed it in Spanish Ardalambion) that it's not published in spanish,
and I don't know where to get it in English!

mmmm... well, I'll shut up know, as the subject said, I just wanted to
say hello, but I speak too much!! :) Hope I didn't bore anybody with so
many questions.

Finally, I wanted to thank the people and moderators of this list for
the educated and pleasent tone of discussion. If sometime I got out of
it, just give me a chance to explain myself because my English is not
perfect, and maybe I made you understand something I didn't want to
say...

Read you!

Namarië

Omar Díez
Telpelantir (Silver Waterfall), Noldor Bard on Middle-Earth's RPG
Kalnur (he who loves Light), Paladin on Diablo II

My opinion carries no special weight, nor should it, but I shall express
my views here in case others may concur, and if so, a widespread opinion
of the list should carry some weight.

I don't think that Mr. Hostetter's long recent posting was a flame
(unlike another recent posting by someone else, that received a
warning). Mr. Hostetter has flamed here in the past (imo, anyway), but
he was more controlled this time, and I would say his post contained
"baiting" (comments and insinuations that almost beg to start a flame
war, but are not outright flames in themselves). I wasn't happy to see
that, *but* I saw the same thing over and over in Mr. Fauskanger's post
(to which Mr. Hostetter was responding).

I have great respect for both the knowledge and accomplishments of both
these individuals.. each has done much for us less knowledgeable folks.
But in hopes of keeping things civil on our list, and thus promoting
Tolkien scholarship, I must say I thought both their posts were
boarderline.

Thus, it was with great dismay that I saw Mr. Salo (another
knowledgeable and accomplished Tolkien linguist) ban Mr. Hostetter
without even a comment on Mr. Fauskanger's "baiting" comments in his
post.

This is the second time I have seen a member of the ET be treated more
harshly (imo) than others equally guilty of inappropriate language for
the list, and I do not think it helps create a sense of fair-play or
evenhandedness for the list. I, too, do not agree with much of the
methodology the ET (or Mr. C. Tolkien, or the Estate, or whoever is
ultimately responsible), but I respect their right to their opinions,
and I would prefer not to see them treated less fairly than anyone else
here.

If others do not agree with me, then I apologize for bothering the list
with this. If others do, please say so, so the editorial board of the
list may take note. Thank you.

Jerry Caveney

> Aiya!

Aiya!

> Well, I'm a Spanish boy from Barcelona, I've just subscribed to this
> list and I wanted to say hello. I've read the FAQ and so on, so I'm
> glad I won't be flamed for my bad English :) just keep in mind it's
> not my mother tongue, and I've got to make an effort to communicate
> in it. But the list seemed so interesting... :)

Hello, I am from Korea and I am relatively Newbie here, too. English
is not my mother tongue, as you. For I, even I haven't been flamed
yet, perhaps you don't need to worry about it!

> I've got some little Quenya poems, forming a "cycle" where each one
> is dedicated to one special girl (they like that very much!! :) but
> they're very rough for the linguist point of view, so I want to
> polish them before I let you dissect them :)

I would certainly wait for them!

> Finally, in the days I've been here, I've seen some strange
> things... For example, this Bill Welden speaks as if he is an
> official source, can somebody (Bill himself?) explain where he
> works and such things?

He IS an official source, I think... He is a member of ET - Editorial
Team. Members of ET have published many issues of VT - Vinyar
Tengwar - and Parma Eldalamberon (Eldalambion?). And their task is
'editing' (as name suggest) yet unpublished Tolkien's manuscripts.

> Also, I have to agree with Helge on his arguments against the
> secretecism (hope that exists) for non-published material... it was
> supposed that the movies are copyright-approved, so why not
> apporting every paper ever written for its bits of language?

Hmm. First, as far as I understand the matter, these papers are
not yet properly 'edited', so they would be not so helpful. And
second, the film is just a film... Tolkien Estate - who has non-
published materials - seems nothing to do with the movie.

> Yes, the correction will only matter to a small group
> of "linguists", but I think this is the group that buys most of
> the new-published material.

How many 'linguists' are there, you guess?

> And about this, what exactly is the Qenya Lexicon? a "dictionary"
> of archaic Quenya? English-Qenya? or what? and isn't it a bit
> unuseful, just talking about ancient, and not about mature Quenya?

QL is a wordlist of Qenya words, written by early time of Tolkien's
life. Unuseful? Certainly it is not about 'mature Quenya' - or
LotR-styled Quenya, but it is still very nice to have such a thing.
Maybe you would find a review of the Quenya Lexicon by Helge on
Ardalambion interesting.

> and is there any way to get it here in Spain? and what about Road
> Goes Ever On? Everybody says it's imprescindible, but I think
> (readed it in Spanish Ardalambion) that it's not published in
> Spanish, and I don't know where to get it in English!

... In Korea, there is _no_ hope to read RGEO in Korean, I think.
There are not so many Tolkien fans in Korea... AFAIK, RGEO is out
of print even in English. (right?)

Anar caluva tielyanna.

Aiya Omar...

> I'm studying Quenya, I was introduced by Ruth S.
> Noel's "The Languages
> of Tolkien's Middle-Earth", then discovered it was
> quite inaccurate when
> I started surfing the web looking for references,
> and discovered (among
> others) Ardalambion.

I have begun with "An introduction to Elvish" Which is
the best book ever (but very old and outdated, you
dont need to lok for it since you can get from the Web
all the info you know) while "The languages of Middle
earth" is maybe the worst book ever, as they say :)

I think the webmaster is around
> here, too, so I
> want to thank you for your time dedicated to the
> page, and make you know
> that the Spanish translated version is very
> accurate. Also from there I
> downloaded a Quenya course that I'm trying to
> complete (I recommend it
> from my ignorance).

Helge's course is very good for beginners (and not
only).. following some of its lessons you are able
already to understand and form Quenya phrases

> poems, forming a "cycle"
> where each one is dedicated to one special girl
> (they like that very
> much!! :)) but they're very rough for the linguist
> point of view, so I
> want to polish them before I let you dissect them :)

cool.. you will find here people eager to correct your
mistakes..

> most of the new-published material. And about this,
> what exactly is the
> Qenya Lexicon? a "dictionary" of archaic Quenya?
> English-Qenya? or what?
> and isn't it a bit unuseful, just talking about
> ancient, and not about
> mature Quenya?? and is there any way to get it here
> in Spain? and what

As you might know, "Qenya" is not the "Ancient Quenya"
but the "immature" form of the language in the early
20th century... This form is pretty different from the
mature Quenya of LOTR after the revisions that Tolkien
made.. its Lexicon was published in one issue of Parma
Eldalamberon and you can contact the publisher to see
if you can get it

> about Road Goes Ever On? Everybody says it's
> imprescindible, but I think
> (readed it in Spanish Ardalambion) that it's not
> published in spanish,
> and I don't know where to get it in English!

you can't get it but you can download it in electronic
form from some sites

> it, just give me a chance to explain myself because
> my English is not
> perfect, and maybe I made you understand something I
> didn't want to
> say...

no, stay reassured :)

> Namarië

It's Namaarie with long aa :)

> Omar Díez
> Telpelantir (Silver Waterfall), Noldor Bard on
> Middle-Earth's RPG

Noldor is the plural form.. you mean Noldo Bard, or
you can say Noldorin Bard

> Kalnur (he who loves Light), Paladin on Diablo II

Caldur maybe



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SKC8563@... wrote:


> ... In Korea, there is _no_ hope to read RGEO in Korean, I think.
> There are not so many Tolkien fans in Korea... AFAIK, RGEO is out
> of print even in English. (right?)


Not exactly, here in the US at least.  I've seen a copy for sale at the
Barnes & Nobles bookstore just two blocks down, and I think at Borders
near my home.  I would suggest looking on Amazon.com to see if you can
order a copy of the book.


----
Lola J. Lee
work:  llee@... - http://www.qrc.com
home:  lola@... - http://www.his.com/~lola/ljl.html

Jerry Caveney wrote:

> I don't think that Mr. Hostetter's long recent posting was a flame
> (unlike another recent posting by someone else, that received a
> warning). *snip* but he was more controlled this time.

I agree.

> *but* I saw the same thing over and over in Mr. Fauskanger's post
> (to which Mr. Hostetter was responding).

I think I saw them ('baiting' comments) in both articles, as you.
eg. 'already wealthy Tolkiens to cash...', 'Holy Publication Plan',
some comments on 'leak', etc. Though I would say the response was
more 'baiting' than the original article.

> Thus, it was with great dismay that I saw Mr. Salo (another
> knowledgeable and accomplished Tolkien linguist) ban Mr. Hostetter
> without even a comment on Mr. Fauskanger's "baiting" comments in his
> post.

Really. And why ban without warning? For Mr. Hostetter had warned
already? Does it mean if a person once earned would be banned without
any warning, since the first warning, afterward?

Seo Sanghyeon

> ... Does a word for 'defend' known in Quenya?

does varya 'protect' do??

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> ... Does a word for 'defend' known in Quenya?

does 'protect' do?? varya

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Gildor Inglorion wrote:

> made.. its Lexicon was published in one issue of Parma
> Eldalamberon and you can contact the publisher to see
> if you can get it



As Bill Weldon stated a couple of days ago, it will be reprinted fairly
soon and available for purchase when all is ready.


> you can't get it but you can download it in electronic
> form from some sites



I just checked Amazon and it seems that the book is out of print.  So
I'm not sure where that copy I saw came from.  Maybe I better grab it
when I have a chance.  I do prefer my books in printed format if
possible . . .

A good place to keep track of upcoming new books and reissues (in
English language) is at
<http://greenbooks.theonering.net/turgon/files/080101.html>.


----
Lola J. Lee
work:  llee@... - http://www.qrc.com
home:  lola@... - http://www.his.com/~lola/ljl.html

Is the Quenya translation to "(the) friend (of the) plants" (name) is
_Olvarendil_?

The book is out of print but it shoulnd't be too hard to find a used copy on,
for example, ebay.  Amazon also has a service whereby they will track down used
copies for you.  Definately worth getting if you have the chance.

Namarie,
Cirk R. Bejnar
Eluchil

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> My opinion carries no special weight, nor should it, but I shall express
> my views here in case others may concur, and if so, a widespread opinion
> of the list should carry some weight.

	 Of course your opinion carries weight. Anyone's does. I go crazy trying to
figure out what people are thinking. It's much easier when they tell me. :)

	 Jerry, I appreciate your thoughtful critique. So much so, that I'm going to put
you on the spot. (That's gratitude for you, isn't it?) Would you agree to
becoming part of the Elfling managerial team? I personally would very much value
your help. You obviously care about the list, and your post proves that you have
significant reserves of thought and tact, both highly desirable qualifications.

	 Moreover, the best way to make sure that Elfling works the way you think it
should (generic "you," not just Jerry) is to participate. *Make* Elfling work.
Please. The managerial team isn't closed, never has been. If you think you can
help, step up and say so.

	 Think I'm trying to dodge responsibility? You better believe I am. I bloody
*hate* trying to keep the lid on borderline flamewars. I'm happy to admit I'm
not all that good at it. And even if I were perfect (note subjunctive, please),
the hate mail is no fun. Misery loves company.

	 I would be blind, deaf, and stupid were I not also to acknowledge that there
are obvious conflict-of-interest problems associated with two members of the
current three-member management team (John, obviously, being odd-man-out). I'd
be *thrilled* to deflect those concerns by adding people with less perceived
bias -- in fact, I wouldn't mind abstracting myself completely from management,
if sufficient numbers stepped up to replace me. I had to work with what
presented itself, however, always the Achilles heel of volunteer-based systems.

> I don't think that Mr. Hostetter's long recent posting was a flame

	 I actually disagree on this point. The bit David cited was pretty hot, IMO, and
it wasn't the only one.

	 Note, moreover, that the length of the suspension was prompted by the number,
not severity, of offenses. Carl has been warned, and has received a one-day
suspension. I don't know how else to discourage this behavior except by
escalating penalties, although the downside to that is that a relatively minor
offense can receive a greater penalty than a relatively major one because of
prior history. Suggestions?

> (unlike another recent posting by someone else, that received a
> warning). Mr. Hostetter has flamed here in the past (imo, anyway), but
> he was more controlled this time, and I would say his post contained
> "baiting" (comments and insinuations that almost beg to start a flame
> war, but are not outright flames in themselves). I wasn't happy to see
> that, *but* I saw the same thing over and over in Mr. Fauskanger's post
> (to which Mr. Hostetter was responding).

	 Helge won't mind (much) my saying that he drives me crazy when I'm wearing my
manager hat. He's really good at staying juuuuuuuuust this side of what I would
ban for. I wish he'd stop, too. I don't think that level of discourse gets
anyone anywhere, and (mark well, both sides!) that kind of sarcasm, false
respect, and black humor after a while alienates the very people both sides are
trying to attract.

	 Not that I haven't been guilty too. John, with admirable sang-froid, told me a
while ago that I was walking the border myself, when I weighed in last time.
I've been avoiding saying anything since then; I don't have the luxury of
someone else to tell me when I've gotten out of line.

	 We could consider tightening up the rules on baiting. The idea scares me some;
that's a big stick that would end up beating a lot of people. I'm not sure what
the alternatives are, however. Be happy to discuss them.

> Thus, it was with great dismay that I saw Mr. Salo (another
> knowledgeable and accomplished Tolkien linguist) ban Mr. Hostetter
> without even a comment on Mr. Fauskanger's "baiting" comments in his
> post.

	 Don't lay all the blame on David. He and I live in the same house (being
married and all), and we usually consult each other (and try to email John) when
something like this comes up. I'm just as guilty on this one as he is -- more
so; I'm listowner, and (nominally) in charge.

	 I'm not trying to run a cabal here. Honestly, I'm not. I'm not happy that I
even *appear* to be running a cabal instead of a mailing list. But I can't fix
this without help. So help, already! :)

Dorothea
--
dorothea@... | http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea/
"Cuando me paro a contemplar mi estado/y a ver los pasos
por do me ha traido/hallo, segun por do anduve perdido/
que a mayor mal pudiera haber llegado..." -- G. de la Vega

--- Jerry Caveney <jcaveney@...>
> wrote:
>My opinion carries no special weight, nor should it, but I shall express
>my views here in case others may concur, and if so, a widespread opinion
>of the list should carry some weight.
>
>I don't think that Mr. Hostetter's long recent posting was a flame
>(unlike another recent posting by someone else, that received a
>warning). Mr. Hostetter has flamed here in the past (imo, anyway), but
>he was more controlled this time, and I would say his post contained
>"baiting" (comments and insinuations that almost beg to start a flame
>war, but are not outright flames in themselves). I wasn't happy to see
>that, *but* I saw the same thing over and over in Mr. Fauskanger's post
>(to which Mr. Hostetter was responding).

I would have to reread the posts to have a "professional", I moderate the online
forums at http://www.tolkienonline.com ,  opinion of the matter, something I
have no wish to do.  My initial reaction was that the action taken was within
the limits of reasonableness the must be used to judge list management.

That said there is incredible need for both fairness and the perception of
fairness in such matters.  The minute there is the perception of bias the list
suffers.

><snip>

>If others do not agree with me, then I apologize for bothering the list
>with this. If others do, please say so, so the editorial board of the
>list may take note. Thank you.
>
>Jerry Caveney

It is, IMHO, important that such matters be discussed.  Lest they are held in
and fester into grudges.

Namarie,
Cirk R. Bejnar
Eluchil



_____________________________________________________________
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Helge K. Fauskanger wrote:

> If Elvish or in this case Dwarvish words are not even
> correctly _spelt_ in the script, what are the chances
> that they will be correctly _pronounced_?

As I tried to say before, the script is not as important to the film
production as you imagine it to be.  In many cases the relevant
script pages were not even finished until a day or two before they
were required for shooting.

The short answer to your question is this:  the script is not quality
controlled (since it is only an internal document), while the
pronunciation is.

Perhaps you imagine the actors reading the script, and trying from
that to determine how to say the Elvish words?  Maybe after being
given a copy of the LotR appendices?  I dare say that would be a
formula for disaster.

Proper pronunication is not the responsibility of the actors.

Instead, Andrew Jack and Roisin Carty (the dialect and creative
language consultants for the film) spent months learning themselves
how to pronounce Elvish (as well as Khuzdul, Old English, Norse,
etc.).  I was there.  They know their stuff.

Each day, before dawn, while the actors are sitting in the makeup
department (two to six hours), Andrew or Roisin spend time with each
of them coaching them on the pronunciation of the specific dialog for
the day; mostly regarding English dialect, but when necessary on the
pronunciation of archaic or invented words.  An actor will very
seldom have more then five or six sentences of dialog to deliver each
day:  no big challenge to memorize.

During filming, one of the two coaches was always present, checking
for correct pronunciation, or more correctly for proper lip movement,
since filming is only about capturing the visual images which will be
used.

The _sound_ of the dialog is actually laid down in a recording studio
after filming is complete.  Here is where Andrew and Roisin play
their key role.  Each actor records their dialog repeatedly until it
is both pronounced correctly and in synch with the filmed images.
This is the sound that you will hear in the theater.

To answer your question, then, the chances are _excellent_ that words
will be correctly pronounced; and the process does not involve the
use of the script at all.

--Bill

Dorothea Salo wrote:

>  I'm not trying to run a cabal here. Honestly, I'm not. I'm not happy that I
> even *appear* to be running a cabal instead of a mailing list. But I can't fix
> this without help. So help, already! :)



Thanks for explaining the workings of the forum management; I really
appreciate it.  I've been on many email lists over the past several
years, and I know how well run or poorly managed lists can be.  And I
also have friends who are list managers, so it gives me a bit of a
personal insight into how different personalities deal with list
managements where it is all based on written words.  Even I am foraying
into managing my own list (not Tolkien related) and find myself facing
some of the issues that list managers face when it comes to setting
rules, approving members, etc.

At the same time, I do think it is our responsibility to choose our
words carefully, and try not to bring personal conflicts into
discussions.  I know it can be very difficult not to do so at times.
But it can be done; it takes a bit of humility to know that one can trip
up and make mistakes sometimes.


----
Lola J. Lee
work:  llee@... - http://www.qrc.com
home:  lola@... - http://www.his.com/~lola/ljl.html

--- Yehuda Ronen <r_yehuda@...>
> wrote:
>Is the Quenya translation to "(the) friend (of the) plants" (name) is
>_Olvarendil_?

I would tend to the form Olvandil based on the Valandil "friend of the
Powers(Valar)".  In such names the plural marker -r is, I believe, unecessary.

Namarie,
Cirk R. Bejnar
Eluchil

_____________________________________________________________
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Christian Zwarg wrote:

> Why are we all so sure that there *are* any unpublished papers
> by JRRT...

Chuckle.

> but then HoME is not a scientific work, or is it supposed to
> be one?

The crux of the issue, of course: ownership versus scholarship.

If JRRT, knowing that he would soon be passing on, had gone through
his papers and selected ones to destroy, nobody would begrudge him
the prerogative, though it would of course be a loss for us.

If a scholar of Tolkien, in a hundred years, did the same thing it
would be a crime.

Where does Christopher fit on this scale?  So much of the rhetoric we
see here assumes that he is just another scholar, with no special
charter from his father; that he is (or ought to be) constrained by
the principles of scholarship; and that the documents (or at least
their contents) belong fundamentally to posterity (which is just a
fancy way of saying that they belong to us).

In fact, these documents do not belong to posterity yet, any more
than they did when JRRT was writing them down.  Christopher inherited
them, along with instructions or guidelines for their disposition,
and owns them now.  He wants to see them published; but in a
_controlled_ way, maintaining the standards of quality and style
appropriate to his father's legacy (and I assume in accordance with
his father's instructions).

This control can either come from: (1) a general respect for his
rights and desires as his father's executor; or if that is not
available, it can come from: (2) strict controls on access to and
information about the documents.

I prefer the former, and it is partly in the hope of achieving it
that I am posting here.

--Bill

>I don't think that Mr. Hostetter's long recent posting was a flame
>(unlike another recent posting by someone else, that received a
>warning). Mr. Hostetter has flamed here in the past (imo, anyway), but
>he was more controlled this time, and I would say his post contained
>"baiting" (comments and insinuations that almost beg to start a flame
>war, but are not outright flames in themselves). I wasn't happy to see
>that, *but* I saw the same thing over and over in Mr. Fauskanger's post
>(to which Mr. Hostetter was responding).
>...
>Thus, it was with great dismay that I saw Mr. Salo (another
>knowledgeable and accomplished Tolkien linguist) ban Mr. Hostetter
>without even a comment on Mr. Fauskanger's "baiting" comments in his
>post.

I have to say I agree here. I really hate all this finger-pointing, but
Jerry makes a good point that the behavior Mr. Hostetter has been banned for
is the same as what was found, in my opinion, even more profusely throughout
Mr. Fauskanger's post.

I have a great respect for both of these gentlemen's linguistic
contributions to this study, and I really think they should be able to
conduct themselves in a civilized manner here, without all the cynicism,
personal attacks, and baiting. If we could all just do that, then there
would be no need for the managerial team in the first place. But since (or
because) that does not seem to be happening, I think the banning needs to be
applied fairly and equitably to everyone. I would like to think that it is
just a coincidence, but it would appear that Mr. Salo is only taking action
against those of the opposite viewpoint, which might be considered a form of
censorship. I truly hope this is not the case, and that in the future the
managers will act more equitably toward all the members of this list.


Cuio mae,
David Nowakowski

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----- Original Message -----
From: Jerry Caveney <jcaveney@...>
To: <elfling@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 4:27 PM
Subject: [elfling] Flaming (was Re: Elvish in movies/Inventory)


Just to say that I agree completly with Mr. Jerry Caveney, specially on the
point of Mr. Fauskanger's post.
The RULES must be EQUAL to all.
>He's really good at staying juuuuuuuuust this side of what I would
>ban for.
Problem with sides is that someone have to know where the line is. Don't
move that line in some cases, please.
With love, Feanor.

Omar Díez wrote:

> I'm glad I won't be flamed for my bad English

Su Inglés es mejor que mi Español.  Bienvenido!

Y ahora creo que será mejor hablar en un lenguaje con que tengo un
poco más facilidad... (Quenya?)

> this Bill Welden speaks as if he is an official source, can
> somebody (Bill himself?) explain where he works and such things?

I am not an official anything.  If I were, I wouldn't be posting
here, because the official policy of the editing team is that we
ought to be spending our time editing, not trying to convince every
last person that we are good guys.

I speak for myself.  Not for the team.  Certainly not for the estate.

Since you ask, I am helping to prepare Tolkien's remaining linguistic
papers for publication.  We have published quite a bit of material to
date, in both Parma Eldalamberon and Vinyar Tengwar.  Even more
remains to be published.

Some people think it is not coming fast enough.  I'll let them speak
for themselves, though.

> isn't it a bit unuseful, just talking about ancient, and not
> about mature Quenya??

There is no "Mature Quenya".

Do I have to say that again?  There is no "Mature Quenya".

It was changing.  It was always changing, right up till the end.
Especially at the end (think it through -- he was retired and
independently wealthy and Quenya was his passion -- what do you think
he did with his time?).  The only thing that nailed down a bit of it
was publication, because he had a strong commitment to what was
published.

For "Mature Quenya", you may be mistaking this "Canonical Quenya", by
which I mean those bits of Quenya that he released for publication
during his lifetime.  Of course (like the early history of the Third
Age, and this is just a testimony to his genius) "Canonical Quenya"
appears internally consistent as if it were a glimpse of a greater
whole.  But there's little more to say about Canonical Quenya, since
we have been studying it for years.

This myth of "Mature Quenya" causes people to lump non-canonical bits
("Vanda sina...") in with canonical bits on the basis of their own
_lamatyave_ (because they "feel mature"), where the distinction ought
to always be clearly kept in mind.  Tolkien was certainly clear on it.

I made a really important point in my recent VT article, and it seems
to have not been noticed:  the more we learn about how Tolkien worked
(that is, the more we see of his process), the less clear it becomes
what is or is not "Proper Quenya".

This is the reason that we of the editing team are not so interested
in providing tables of pronouns (as Carl implied, it's not even clear
which table to provide).  The only real story to tell, once you
understand what is in the manuscripts, is the _process_ that Tolkien
went through in the creation of his languages.

And each piece can only be understood in context.  And the _context_
is the work he had done just before.

Telling the story from back to front, just because people want to
know how it ends, is not the way to go.

--Bill

Mr. Hostetter (welcome back) seems very little enthusiastic about the
upcoming movies, though one of his fellow ET members has even visited the
sets.

> the crass commercialism that attaches itself to every modern-day
blockbuster film -- and clearly, New Line is positioning the film to be one
-- is anathema to both Tolkien and his Estate... They will, it appears,
profit indirectly from the increased sales of books, but I am certain they
would happily forego this if they could make the films go away.

I think the Tolkien Estate is hardly entirely innocent as far as
commercialism is concerned. Moreover, if CJRT absolutely, definitely did
NOT want to see a movie being made, he has less influence than I would have
thought if he was still powerless to hinder it.

> if the _film-makers_ were truly concerned to make the Elvish as accurate
as possible, why don't they just stick to what Tolkien himself actually
provides in the book?

Actually even an ultra-faithful adaptation, literally using the book as
script, would require new Elvish sentences to be constructed. Two examples:
1) After meeting Gildor and the other Elves, Frodo "spoke to those that
served him and thanked them in their own tongue" (Three Is Company). No
Elvish is cited, but in a movie it would have to be heard. 2) In Lórien,
upon hearing the news of Gandalf's seeming demise, Celeborn turned to
Haldor: "'Why has nothing of this been told to me before?' he asked in the
Elven-tongue" (The Mirror of Galadriel). The question would have to be
rendered into Sindarin. Our present knowledge hardly suffices to make this
translation, but I trust the papers Mr. Hostetter has access to would be
helpful. Unfortunately, they will apparently be published many years too
late to be of any help to the film-makers...assuming that we will ever get
to see them at all.

> David's name has been publicly given as one of the prime linguistic
consultants; why is he so coy and silent on the matter?... Why is Bill
targeted for questions concerning the film's "Elvish" element?

I was primarily talking about the _Estate_ and what contributions I think
they and their representatives ought to make to the movie. David has no
special relationship to the Estate and simply draws on material that we
have all seen. Bill Welden, on the other hand, has access to huge amounts
of unpublished material, and he has earlier claimed to be an appointed
representative of the Estate.

> [Me:] but they have very little to go on regarding grammar in particular.

> [Hostetter:] Oh? You've managed to write quite a bit about Quenya
grammar, haven't you?

Yes, but precisely because of that, I know better than anyone how huge the
gaps really are (the pluperfect, anyone? The passive form of verbs - or at
least a verb meaning "become"? And what about the past tense, as well as
the infinitive and perfect, of "to be"? The list goes on and on...)
Moreover, Sindarin rather than Quenya would be the relevant language as far
as the movies are concerned, and we know less about Sindarin than we know
about Quenya.

> > [Me:] If Tolkien had been around to see the first installment of the
Jackson trilogy in December, ungrammatical Elvish would certainly make him
wince.
>
> [Hostetter:] As would embellishments and "supplements" to the Elvish he
has already supplied

As I have already demonstrated, an entirely faithful movie version of the
book would _require_ post-Tolkien Elvish sentences to be constructed, or it
couldn't be faithful.

> Since you seem unable to write anything concerning the Tolkien Estate,
the "Editorial Team", or their activities without peppering them with
insinuations and insults, it is no surprise to me that you would see the
same where none exists.

As for insults, I think you would have to search my letters long and hard
to find anything comparable to what you wrote about me and my friends some
weeks ago (people don't get themselves banned from this list very often,
and to the best of my knowledge, you are the only one who has ever been
banned _twice_). I notice your use of quotation marks. We abandoned the
term _Elfconners_ simply because you were offended by your own
folk-etymological interpretation of it. Are we to understand that even the
term _Editorial Team_, which was deliberately chosen because most of us
thought it was entirely neutral and non-offensive, is somehow unacceptable
to you? If anyone is seeing insults "where none exists", it would seem to
be you. I believe the TolkLang moderator has already commented on this.
How, really, can we refer to your group in a way you would find acceptable?
What should we be calling you? The Chosen Ones?

> [Me:] I have never demanded that the Estate publish the Quenya Pater
Noster.
>
> [Hostetter:] Then what is your lawyer arguing for in all those endless
pages he is peppering the Estate with?

Sigh... Elsewhere in his letter, Hostetter writes: "Once again, you don't
know what you're talking about. But that never seems to stop you from
talking." I think he should address these words to himself. And in
Hostetter's case, he really _ought_ to know what he is talking about -- for
quite recently, on this very list, in an exchange involving Hostetter
himself, I provided quite extensive information regarding my lawyer's
correspondence with the Estate. As I wrote on July 25, responding to Bill
Welden:  "The 'multiple voluminous legal documents'...sent by my attorney
amount to all of TWO letters, one sent eight months after the other. They
are so 'voluminous' that the total amount of text of both letters combined
would be some SIX pages." Yet Hostetter perpetuates the myth about my
attorney "peppering" the poor Estate with "endless pages". Perhaps, then,
it was from Hostetter Welden himself got this strange idea about the
"multiple voluminous legal documents" my attorney has supposedly been
harassing the Estate with?

Further down in his posting, Hostetter apparently decided that even
"peppering" wasn't emphatic enough, and I am accused of "ASSAULTING the
Estate with lawyers and endless correspon[d]ence". The next time this story
is retold, I guess the claim will be made that I and my evil lawyers -- for
according to Hostetter's latest insight, there are several of them -- have
been sending bombs to the Estate.

The Elflingers will remember that I provided information about the true
nature of this correspondence, but Hostetter seems to have missed that as
well. Of course, I or my attorney didn't "demand" that the Estate publish
the Quenya Pater Noster. How could we possibly "demand" such a thing? After
I informed the Estate that I had worked out an analysis of this text, I
instructed my attorney to explore the possibility of cooperating with the
Estate regarding its publication. They were essentially offered a quite
substantial work for free, and I would have let them publish it wherever
they might want, but obviously I can't _demand_ that they accept this offer
and publish it somewhere. (Of course, if they are not interested, I would
reserve the right to publish it _myself_ as a scholarly, non-commercial
publication, without bothering the Estate at all. The Estate has not
attempted to demonstrate that this would be a violation of American
copyright law; indeed they haven't presented anything like a legal
argument, or any actual arguments whatsoever. But in the interest of peace
and out of respect for the Estate's position, I will give them a very fair
chance to publish the Quenya Pater Noster first -- though I will not wait
indefinitely.)

> >[Me:] it so happens that I have been able to work out an analysis of the
Quenya Pater Noster
>
> [Hostetter:] You have worked out an analysis of _one_ version of the
Quenya Pater Noster. We are working on a presentation and analysis of _all_
the related versions of the text, making full use of other, attendant notes
and materials. The two are very different things.

Indeed I analyze just one version (very carefully), but that would seem to
be a particularly interesting variant, since Hostetter later in his letter
informs us that this is "the final version". And precisely because my work
and his will be "very different things", readers should be able to enjoy
both my analysis and the ET's eventual presentation.

> We're doing a very different task from what you have done. The only one
who will need to "do the work all over again" will be you, when you've seen
_all_ the versions of this text and associated materials.

I'm sorry you have such a low opinion of my abilities, Mr. Hostetter. How
can you possibly 'highly recommend' my Quenya course? If my analysis turns
out to be so inferior that after seeing your publication I will just have
to scrap it and start all over again...then I won't. Instead I will
instantly delete all of Ardalambion and retire from the field, no longer
misleading others with my wild fantasies about what the structure of
Tolkien's languages is really like.

Since I don't aim to analyze a lot of different versions, but only the
final one, I will not have to work information about all the rejected
versions into my text (though I would have done so if the Estate had
expressed any interest in my work, and they really want all the different
versions to appear as one publication). Even so, I will certainly study the
eventual ET publication with great interest, and I do hope it will appear
before I shall have to publish my own work. In particular, I hope you will
be able to shed some light on the strange prefix occurring in the word
_rámen_.

Hostetter goes on to relate how the manuscript was released in the first
place, which is quite interesting (I have never claimed to know all the
particulars). A couple of details of interest: 1) Hostetter does not
hesitate to broadcast the name of the person he holds to be responsible for
the "leak", though I believe this person was once his friend, and though
the same person is now working with CJRT, apparently long forgiven. 2) It
seems clear from Hostetter's own account that there was no actual agreement
of non-disclosure which the recipient agreed to _before_ (or even after?)
the text was already in his hands. Thus it seems highly doubtful whether
the original recipient broke any genuine agreement at all. Whatever the
case may be, I really don't think Hostetter or anyone else should use this
forum to morally condemn people ("of course, this trust was instantly
violated") who are not here to defend themselves. Do the list managers have
any opinion or policy on this?

> I explained the textual situation to [CJRT] (e.g., multiple versions,
etc.), but said that for [the recipient's] non-linguistic, critical
purposes the final version would suffice.

Let me get this straight: _YOU_ expained to _CJRT_ the textual situation?
The very man who sent you his own father's manuscripts was not aware that
there were several versions of the Quenya Pater Noster? Are we to
understand that CJRT has never really studied these papers himself?

> Let's say we did publish such a catalog. Would you feel better seeing
_dozens_ of entries like "Ca. 1970 manuscript: Complete Quenya Pronoun
Table", many written within perhaps _minutes_ of each other, but very few
of them agreeing with each other in detail? What would you do with this
information?

Analyze it, of course, and put it to good use in actual Quenya
compositions. Variants are to be expected, and to people studying the later
stages of Tolkien's conlanging as such, they are of no consequence (indeed
themselves a subject of study). Quenya poets would probably want some kind
of "standard" to be established, and I trust that we would soon agree on
what forms to use.

> We have no interest in "comforting" you or anyone else.

We know, Mr. Hostetter. We know.

- Helge Fauskanger

Helge K. Fauskanger wrote:

> Bill Welden ... has earlier claimed to be an appointed
> representative of the Estate.

I have no doubt that I wrote this, since your recall in these matters
is better than mine.

It is, however, and has always been untrue.  I do my best to do the
work which has been given to me in a way which is consistent with the
Estate's policies and standards, but I have no authority whatsoever
to speak for them.

With this admission that I misspoke myself, I would appreciate it if
you would stop repeating it.  I will not say anything at all here if
I think I will be taken as speaking for the Estate, or even for the
editorial team.

--Bill

A few people have raised questions about the fairness or
perceived fairness of administrative decisions on this list.
Before discussing them, I should like to remind the readers how
the current form of moderation came about.
     When the list was founded back in September 1998, Dorothea
Salo was solely responsible for list moderation and set out clear
guidelines intended to keep discussion on this list civil and,
hopefully, enjoyable.  Those guidelines, in a somewhat revised
form, can be found at
http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea/elfling.html and still form the
foundation for Elfling administrative decisions.
    For several years, Dorothea moderated the entire content of the
list: she read all messages before permitting them to be posted
to the list, making sure that no spam, irrelevant messages, or
flames were posted.  While most people were happy with this
situation, some people felt that certain messages were being
'censored' -- namely, those which broke Elfling's rules and
threatened to destroy the civil atmosphere of discussion.  For
enforcing the rules, Dorothea was very nastily attacked.  Under
those circumstances, and the burden of a list with ever more
increasing membership and message-load, Dorothea decided
to unmoderate the list.
     The results were predictable.  While the list proceeded for
some months without much difficulty, eventually there was a
marked increase in the number of spams and flames.  Members
of the list raised their voices in protest, wondering why nothing
was being done, some of them longing for the 'good old days'.
There seemed to be a consensus that some form of moderation
would have to be reintroduced.  A poll was taken, open to all
users, of three options: continued unmoderation; moderation
under the old formula; and the introduction of a panel of list
managers who would, instead of exercising a 'prior censorship'
of possible flames, have the discretionary option of banning
certain difficult members from posting for limited times.
       The poll remained open for several weeks, but the number of
people who bothered to respond was fairly low.  When the poll
closed, the option of the list manager panel won by a majority
over the other two options.
        The next problem was to ask for volunteers for the panel.
Only two people stepped forward: John Cowan, and myself.
        You will have seen a pattern by now.  From time to time, a
group of people gets upset about the way the list is run.  They
make enough noise about it to be heard; but when changes are
suggested or made, they're never there to actually do anything to
support the list.  They don't vote, and they don't volunteer.  For the
moderator, having to deal with a series of often very personal
complaints, but not finding any support from the group either for
the status quo or for any particular changes is a difficult, indeed
almost impossible task.  For any one group which is pleased by
a change, another group will arise which will object to it; neither
group wants to actually contribute to solutions.
       The structure which has resulted may quite possibly
displease the greatest number of people; I have no way of
knowing.  It is, however, the one chosen by that minority who
actually interested themselves in questions of the governance of
the list.  It has worked as long as the decisions to be made were
relatively non-controversial; nobody, I think, has objected to
spammers being tossed off the list.  But sometimes
controversial decisions need to be made.
        I, personally, made the decision to ban Carl Hostetter from
the list for three days.  This was not an easy decision.  It is well
known that I have differences of opinion with Mr. Hostetter on a
number of subjects, and I knew that some people would draw
the conclusion that I banned him because of those differences,
or because of some personal dislike.  They might think it proper
for me to give Mr. Hostetter rather more leeway than other people
to break the rules, in order to preserve the 'appearance of
fairness'.
        However, I have another obligation, which is to preserve the
ability of this list to function as a forum for civil discourse.  Mr.
Hostetter clearly violated the first rule of Elfling: *no personal
attacks*.  These were Mr. Hostetter's violations (reproduced as
written) in message #5982:
1) "your typically uniformed and insidious assignment of
motives"
2) "Since you seem unable to write anything concerning the
Tolkien Estate, the "Editorial Team", or their activities without
peppering them with insinuations and insults, it is no surprise to
me that you would see the same where none exists. It seems to
be all you know."
3) "And yet again we have an uninformed insinuation from
Helge."
4) "But since you seem to know only insult, arrogance, and
self-serving bullying, it is no surprise that you see and insinuate
them everywhere yourself."
5) "you who is now assaulting the Estate with lawyers and
endless corresponence, insisting on your right to publish this
purloined text."
6) "Helge, once again, you don't know what you're talking about.
But that never seems to stop you from talking; indeed, it seems
to encourage you to keep talking as frequently and as at great a
length as you can."
7) "Again with the uninformed characterization."
8) "Setting aside the gratuitous insinuation represented by
"vulgar" -- just can't resist, can you Helge?"

The words or phrases "uninformed", "insidious", "insinuation",
"insult", "arrogance", "self-serving", "bullying", "assaulting",
"purloined", "that never seems to stop you from talking" are all
characteristic of personal attacks.  They are not flamebait, as
Jerry Caveney suggests.  They are flames.  Any one of the above
could have been sufficient to justify banning Mr. Hostetter, let
alone eight in a single message (and that is only message
#5982; I count four more flames in message #5986). As a list
manager, I cannot sanction this kind of message on a list which
is supposed to be for calm, reasonable, and civil discussion.
The inevitable result of allowing these kinds of messages to go
unchecked is flamewar, which would totally destroy the ability of
this list to function for its intended purpose: the free discussion
of Tolkien's invented languages.
     Two questions have been raised: one, why was Mr. Hostetter
banned when Mr. Fauskanger was not?  The answer is that Mr.
Hostetter engaged in personal attacks, and Mr. Fauskanger did
not.  I have examined Mr. Fauskanger's message with a
fine-toothed comb, and I see nothing comparable to, much less
surpassing, Mr. Hostetter's attacks as listed above.  "Wealthy
Tolkiens" is not a personal attack.  "Holy Publication Plan" is
mildly sarcastic, but it is not a personal attack.  "Vulgar masses
of Tolkien-linguists" is clearly directed by Helge at himself and
people who agree with him, and does not form part of an attack
on them.   "Arrogant dismissal" comes closest to a flame,
though I note that it is qualified by "perceived as" and does not
seem to be directed at a particular person.  I will take this
opportunity to warn Mr. Fauskanger that characterizing other
people's words as "arrogant" may be grounds for a ban, and I
suggest on the whole that he tone down the sarcasm.  However,
in what Mr. Fauskanger posted, I do not see the kind of repeated
patterns of personal attacks that I see in Mr. Hostetter's post, and
I see no good and justifiable reason for banning Mr. Fauskanger.
      The grounds for these decisions, as I hope will be clear from
the above, are based solely on the *language* of the messages
posted.  They have absolutely nothing to do with the content.  I
note that Bill Welden has posted a great many messages to
Elfling that are substantially similar in content to Mr. Hostetter's
messages; however, Mr. Welden has never been banned or
even warned, nor do I expect that he ever will be, because he
does not engage in personal attacks to get his point across.
The content is entirely admissible on Elfling.  I also note that the
messages that were posted have not been censored, and will
remain in the Elfling Archive unless their author chooses to
withdraw them.   However, any author who engages in personal
attacks, regardless of the content of his message, may have to
take a brief time-out to think about how he or she can better
express himself or herself within the bounds of Elfling's rules.
       The second question which was put was why Mr. Hostetter
was not warned before being banned.  It is not, as Seo
Sanghyeon suggests, because he had been previously warned
on another thread.  As was explained in message #5420, which
may also be consulted as a guide to Elfling policy, a warning is
not an official administrative action but an attempt to guide
discussion back into normal channels without having to resort to
administrative action.  Its chief use is to avoid banning someone
who has flamed through ignorance of the rules or through
inadvertence or a passing excess of emotion.  It is a discretion in
favor of leniency.  The official administrative response to flames
is a ban, and may be exercised without warning.
       Mr. Hostetter is thoroughly familiar with the rules of Elfling.
Mr. Hostetter had been warned on a previous occasion; he
ignored the warning; he was banned for twenty-four hours.  On
the basis of his previous inattention to warnings, the number of
the offenses in this instance, and their appearance in multiple
messages, I concluded that a warning on this occasion would
not be helpful, and I was moreover concerned about the
likelihood of an imminent flamewar.  I therefore banned him
immediately, using my discretion.  Because he had been
banned before for a similar reason, and because a second
offense is more grievous than a first, the period of the ban was
lengthened from twenty-four hours to three days, after
consultation with the List Moderator.
       These are my reasons for taking the administrative action
that I did, and all the factors that I considered in taking it.
Whether or not the action was fair is up to the readers of the list
to decide.  I believe that it was fair, and I believe that it was
entirely in line with stated policy and precedent, without
favoritism for any person or 'side'.
       However, if you have different ideas about how this list should
be run, here are some things you can do:
       First, if you think that someone is violating Elfling's rules and
you want to complain about it, you can contact the managers and
moderator at elfling-owner@yahoogroups.com.  Please provide
specifics of the violation.  We managers try to read everything,
but some things may slip past our eyes.
       Second, volunteer to be a manager!  Two people (John and
me) is a rather small panel and almost certainly doesn't
represent all shades of opinion on this list.  Your input will be
much appreciated; will do a great deal to avoid the 'appearance
of unfairness'; and will give you a feeling for the practical
problems of managing a list this size.
        In this connection, I am happy to note that one person has
already volunteered to be a list manager.  Others are welcome.

        David Salo
        List manager

Cirk Bejnar >> "I tend to agree that there is no compelling reason to
reduce -rr- to -r-.  Still such things can happen in the case of names."

Terry Dock > So, one could then translate Seafoam as _Aearros_ or _Aearos_
(if one
really wants to reduce RR to R).

The meaning of Saeros is not given in any source I know and I wondered if it
could be 'bitter foam', from _saer_ 'bitter' and _ros_ 'foam'. This could be
an example of RR becoming R in a name.
I have not read many volumes of HoME and have not yet studied much Sindarin,
so my question may be silly...

Sébastien Bertho, estaina Aryáro Varya Endóresse

> I agree, it is unfortunate that the other side was not
interviewed,
> but perhaps there were reasons why this didn't happen.
There's
> always two sides of the story, you know.

    I believe that this is what Bill Welden was referring to in his
response in message #5355 to your own earlier message:

>> I guess, it goes without saying, that if a journalist comes
>> knocking on your door desiring to learn more about this
>> controversy, you guys and gals will need to be prepared for
that.

>He came.  I sent him away.  Talking to journalists (as I found
out
>the hard way years ago) is like giving your notes to someone
else to
>rewrite and publish under your name.  If I have something to
say,
>I'll say it myself.

      That is, Bill was not interviewed because he declined to be
interviewed, not because no effort was made to contact him.
Unlike Bill, I have responded to questions; when I was asked
about the Editorial Team, trying to be fair I directed the reporter to
Tolklang to see the ET's own representations of their position
(there was little from the ET on Elfling at that point) so that there
would be no question of my imposing my own ideas about the
ET upon him unargued.  I also cautioned him that there were
people who did not share my perceptions of the situation.  I
imagine that the reporter drew his own conclusions.

                                                                                        
David Salo

Let us get this straight.

We have to bear in mind that the Estate--much less CJRT-- has no power
whatsoever to dictate how the movie is made, despite the attempts of the
filmmakers to put a certain amount versimilitude into the project. After
all, they do *not* own the film rights of the book (as well as that of The
Hobbit), which by the mid-70's was owned (and still is) by producer Saul
Zaentz. (Art or cash, you would wonder? Tolkien opted for the cash.)

Saul Zaentz was by then a noted record producer (for Fantasy records) who
ventured into filmmaking with such films as Payday and One Flew Over the
Cuckoo's nest. In the late 70's noted animator Ralph Bakshi (not
Rankin/Bass, Helge) worked with Zaentz to make his somewhat notorious
animated feature (what else?) The Lord of the Rings which only covered half
the story and a planned sequel never made. (Although Rankin/Bass did make a
go for it in The Return of the King. They also made a good version of The
Hobbit. Both were animated.)

Of course, there is the Peter Jackson project.

It is good that they are making efforts to have the Elvish (mostly Sindarin
from I have heard) down pat, but really, they are just as limited as we are
in determining the correct syntax and grammar, inspite the consultations
made to certain members of this list. But really, I must reiterate, the
Estate cannot prevent this film from proceeding as planned, because they
don't have the right. An endorsement would be fine, but Peter Jackson and
everybody else involved in the film project can do without it.

If the facts I presented are rather incorrect, please forgive me. I am
writing this in a hurry and from what I remember.

Hantanye ilquen. (Not "Hantale" which is a noun meaning "thanksgiving".)