--- In elfling@y..., Beregond. Anders Stenström <beregond@u...> wrote:
> Lisa Star wrote:
>
> > **yes, this gets very confusing.  TT usually stands for Tyalie
Tyelellieva,
> > so maybe you folks could find some other name to use for the
Elfconners if
> > you don't want to use Elfconners.  After all, I don't want to be
mistaken
> > for them.
>
>    In some earlier posts I and a few others have used the phrase
> "editorial team", which I think is straightforward.

And if "ET" sounds too outlandish, then yet another solution is to ask
the team what they prefer to be called.

Per Lindberg
(but you can call me Gildir)

At 21:47 2001-07-31 +0200, Ales Bican wrote:

>**Of course I do not mind. Actually, I welcome it gladly. There have
>been another requests for Sindarin names, but I could not help as
>my knowledge of Sindarin has been rather poor. If you, David, would
>like to help, I would add it to my Babybook. And not only David,
>everyone can help!


Here are the translations that I (with more or less help from David Salo
and Helge) made for the names of myself and my son:

Philip: S. Melroch, Q. Melarocco

William: S. Merthol, Q. Merkas/Merkasso

I have also on occasion translated Helena (not quite literally) with Q.
Ankalime.



/BP 8^)>
--
B.Philip Jonsson mailto:bpX@... (delete X)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
                 A h-ammen ledin i phith!                \ \
      __  ____ ____    _____________ ____ __   __ __     / /
      \ \/___ \\__ \  /___  _____/\ \\__ \\ \  \ \\ \   / /
      / /   / /  /  \    / /Melroch\ \_/ // /  / // /  / /
     / /___/ /_ / /\ \  / /Melarokko\_  // /__/ // /__/ /
    /_________//_/  \_\/ /Eowine __  / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
   ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
|| Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
"A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" (JRR Tolkien)

--- In elfling@y..., David Kiltz <kiltzd@u...> wrote:
>
> On Dienstag, Juli 31, 2001, at 04:45  Uhr, Lola Lee wrote:
> > In English, the response goes as thus:
> >
> > Lord, have mercy.
> > Heru, hara lavalmë.
> >
[snip]
> > Lord, have mercy.
> > Heru, lavalmë.
> _lavalme_ wd mean "we forgive". _lava men_ is "forgive us". I agree
that
> _hara_ isn't necessary here.
> "have mercy" is -I think- very idiomatic English. Most languages wd
> probably simply use a verb.

I agree that the subject would be "Lord" since he is the one we wish
to have mercy...

Perhaps this leads us to use _nai_ since it could be literally stated
as:
Nai heru lava men
"May it be, that the Lord forgive us."

Just some thoughts.

Carey Duran

I'm Arwen and i'm Italian...I'd like to have some good advetidement
to how i can learn Quenya ...............I hope that u can help me
kissex!
           Arwen

--- In elfling@y..., Arwen10883@v... wrote:

>  I'm Arwen and i'm Italian...I'd like to have some good advetidement
> to how i can learn Quenya ...............I hope that u can help me
> kissex!
>           Arwen

Hi!  Welcome to the list!  Glad to see another person interested in
Quenya.  There's a really good site with downloadable tutorial at
Ardalambion, <http://www.uib.no/people/hnohf/>.  A good place to start
and work through.  On this page you'll find a link to the Italian
version of the site, which also includes the course translated into
Italian, if you find that easier to use.

By the way, what is your Italian name?  There are a good number of
women on Tolkienian sites using the name "Arwen", and so it helps to
have their birth names in order to distinguish one Arwen from the
other.

Lola

Gildir suggested:

> And if "ET" sounds too outlandish, then yet another solution is
> to ask the team what they prefer to be called.

I can't really speak for the others, but there's certainly no reason
to take up bandwidth here discussing the issue.  I will use ET.
Short and unambiguous.

--Bill

Aiya Elfling!

It would be very nice to read a Quenya love story. Perhaps
of Aragorn and Arwen, or of Beren and Luthien would be the best,
but it would be also nice to have something different.

And here comes the last two sentences of "Ulrike", written by
Jorge Luis Borges, as subject suggested. ^^ I like Borges so
much (as much as Tolkien...) so I translated this. I know that
there are some native speakers of Spainish here... Please
correct me. Any comments from _lambendili sinome_, would be
highly appreciated!

[ English ]

There was no sword between us.
Time passed like the sands.
In the darkness, centuries-old,
love flowed,
and for the first and last time
I possessed Ulrike's image.

(quoted from Ulrike, by Jorge Luis Borges)

[ Quenya ]

laa macil eane imbe met.
luume vaane ve litse.
moresse, linyenwa,
melme sirne,
minya, ar telda luusse,
haryanye olos Ulrikeo.

[ Interlinear Translation ]

_laa macil eane imbe met._
"no sword existed between us(dual)."

_luume vaane ve litse._
"time passed as sand."

_moresse, linyenwa,_
"in darkness, many-years-old,"

_melme sirne,_
"love flowed,"

_minya, ar telda luusse,_
"in first, and last time(occasion),_

_haryanen olos Ulrikeo._
"I possessed dream of Ulrike._


Seo Sanghyeon

From: <Arwen10883@...>
To: <elfling@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 8:31 AM
Subject: [elfling] HELLO


> I'm Arwen and i'm Italian...I'd like to have some good advetidement
> to how i can learn Quenya ...............I hope that u can help me
> kissex!
>           Arwen
>
>
>
> --
Try the following URL: http://move.to/Ardalambion

I have written an English lay of Aragorn and Arwen, based on the form of
"The Lay Of Luthien" in LOTR. Would anyone here be interested in seeing it
to determine whether or not it might have possibilities in Quenya?

Sara, who wrote this as an homage to Tolkien, definitely not for
publication for proffit.

On Mittwoch, August 1, 2001, at 05:20  Uhr, 서기춘 wrote:

>
> meetima nelde quenteli Ulrike-o
> {translated by Seo Sanghyeon}
>
> laa macil eane imbe met. [no sword existed between us]
> luume vaane ve litsi.    [time passed as sands]
> moresse, linyenwa,       [in darkness, having many years]
> melme sirne,             [love flowed]
> minya ar telda luusse    [in first and last occasion]
I think _luusse_ isn't possible. There must be no long vowel before a
double consonant.
So either _lusse_ or _mi ... luu_ I think.
> haryanen olos Ulrike-o.  [I possessed dream of Ulrike]
>
>
> I would appreciate any comments.

Very nice.

Sara Hillis wrote:

>  I have written an English lay of Aragorn and Arwen, based on the form of
> "The Lay Of Luthien" in LOTR. Would anyone here be interested in seeing it
> to determine whether or not it might have possibilities in Quenya?

I should like to see it for its own merits: please send me a copy.

--
There is / one art             || John Cowan <jcowan@...>
no more / no less              || http://www.reutershealth.com
to do / all things             || http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
with art- / lessness           \\ -- Piet Hein

Well, only to thank those who took the time to answer my little questions,
Mr. Cowan, Mr. Salo and Ms. Star... gratias vobis ago!

> > Well, that's all. As usual, my extremely scarce contributions here go
only for getting help; but what can I do? :)
> **Well, very frankly, some of us enjoy showing off, and it's always fun to
look things up.

You can be sure that you will have more of this joy from me... :)

Diego Seguí


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David Kiltz wrote:

> I think _luusse_ isn't possible.
> There must be no long vowel before a double consonant.
> So either _lusse_ or _mi ... luu_ I think.

auch! yes, you are right.

> Very nice.

by the way, i am very sorry for repeated postings. I deleted
other 4 postings from elfling archive. i thought, my message
didn't get here, so I sent it repeatedly...

I just uploaded Lesson 17 of my Quenya course, added to the file that
already contained Lesson 16 (just scroll down):

http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/less-d.rtf

Lesson 17 discusses the demonstratives, the system of inflecting the "Last
Declinable Word", U-stem nouns and ordinal numbers.

Here is the cover-page for the entire course:

http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/qcourse.htm

- HF

Aaaah! I thought I only had two lessons to go and then I'd get a break! No
such luck. (smile) I'll be downloading the new and improved less-d.rtf as
soon as possible!

Sara

so nice to see you again!

my free ISP closed for good, therefore my former email address is no more..
i subscribed in hotmail.com (if it has any relevance, let the salos delete
my former address from the list's list :))

i hope i didn't miss any interesting discussion.. see you again!!

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E A echant

> > >In light of recent events in this group, I will remove myself from the
> > >list shortly after this post. I'm a long time lurker and kept most of
>my
> > >messages directly to people I have met here. I offer you this before I
> > >go.
> >
> ><snip text with much useless talk>

the much talk wasnt useless at all... you just think so because a lurker
wrote it.. right?

> >I have never much liked lurkers (e.g. passive readers) or approved their
> >"shy" attitude. We're not Aman.

too bad.. Aman is a great place and we should try to make the nowadays
marred Arda look like it...

> >The less lurkers, the better Elfling will "work".

this aggressive and impolite post to that departed person was a product of
you (unexplicable) maliciousness and dislike towards lurkers.. ok everyone
of us has our weak points.. hence your meaningless and senseless notion "the
less lurkers the better"... previous posts from others assured you the
irrationality of that phrase

>You're right. I should have said "the weeping lurkers" whose :"I
>don't-like-this-and-I-don't-like, so-I-go-away".

and what is your problem? i am not a lurker and i thought abandon the list
too as a sign of dissappointment to the flamewars.. that a lurker did this
doesn't make it any worse...

>That's exactly what I find, well... not appropriate (to be polite).

what impolite word have you in mind? i dont think lurking is that bad to
deserve something less polite

>The true "lurking lurker" I don't give a...


okies


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Raghav wrote:

I dont know where you can find what you seek, like a text discussing the
etymological changes, but i advise you to study Sindarin evolution since it
is more interesting... you could just study the sindarin dictionary and note
carefully how the Sindarin words evolved from OS... look also OS and Telerin
articles in Ardalambion (Telerin, being close to Quenya, denotes the
differences between the Telerin and the Quenyan branches)


i have made a grid with columns of stems/PQ/Quenya/Telerin/OS/Sindarin/etc
derivatives, compiled by Ardalambion wordlists and the Sindarin
dictionary... it is very helpful concerning filling gaps and find
hypothetical derivatives.. it is what i urge you to do (if you have
masochistic tendencies and much free time)... example:

ALAK > PQ *alk-waa > Q alqua/T alpa/OS *alpa/S alph/D ?/M *alf/N *ealf
NGOLOD > PQ ngolodoo > Q ngoldo > noldo/T golodo/goldo-/OS ngolodo/S
golodh/D gold/ M ?/N golda

D/M/N are for doriathrin, mithrim and nandorin.. mithrim (north sindarin) is
supposed to be ilkorin... Galadhorn has written an article about it with
some reconstructions... following his rules we can reconstruct NS words from
sindarin

to trace the origins of a word you need to know its meaning (altariel =
bright something), and with that, if by experience you remember the stem of
each meaning with sounds that maybe were lost (like the NGAL that was lost
in Quenya), you will be able to reconstruct words in other tongues

you must have in mind some rules:

concerning Quenya,
B between vowels became V
B remained as is in MB
W remained initially but later became V
~N initially was lost
NG became ~N and then N
G remained only in NG
H remained as is
KH became CH in old Quenya, and then merged with H
D initially became L
D between vowels became R
D remained in clusters RD, LD, ND
I finally became E
II finally remained
U finally became O (or vice versa? please correct!)
AY, EY, OY, UY became diphthongs AI, EI, OI, UI. EI became II
short final vowels were lost, long remained

Sindarin passed through many stages:

- final (or near final) i umlauted the preceding vowels (galada, gelaidi)
- final vowels were lost (galad, gelaid)
- intervocal and final consonants were lenited (galadh, gelaidh)

generally Sindarin tends to hold the sounds D, B, G or even hardens them
from initial NG, ND and medial P, T, K etc. cf Ngolodo > Noldo/Golodh.
It also likes to assimilate similar sounds like MB, ND > MM, NN cf.
ando/annon
long stops KK, TT, TK, PP became aspirated as CH, TH, PH cf. rokko > OS
*rokkho > S roch. etkoire > OS etkhuire > S echuir
note that since final vowels were lost, an o was inserted to avoid final
clusters! cf. kapro > kapr > cabor
it is useful for reconstructions to know that CE words in -ma, -me
yielded -f in Sidarin cf. corma > *corf

you can note more mutations judging the Sindarin dictionary...
having in mind them, it is easy to remember the initial mutations of words
after articles etc!!

>Is it written anywhere what changes occured when a word evolved from
Common
>Eldarin to Quenya and Sindarin? If one has a Sindarin or Quenya name, how
>can one trace it back to the Origin and then get the result in Quenya or
>Sindarin? For example, Q Altariel --> CE Ñalatârigellê --> S Galadriel
>(Ardalambion Sindarin Grammar) Or do you need to look at the etymologies
and
>find a list of rules yourself?
>
>
>
>I don't think I'm being very clear, but oh well.
>
>
>
>Thank you,
>
>Raghav


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>Aiya lambengolorion ancalima! Melin quenya! Naa vanyas lambe. Lindeas ve
>avanya aiwion! Ai! Merin quetis ilye luumenar! (all the hours--all the
>time.) Aiya Altaariel! Aiya Varda!!!
>
>Namaarie!
>
>Aranel

how... feminine of you :))
now to some notes:

>Aiya lambengolorion ancalima!
>Hail brightest of loremasters in tongues!

the word is lambengolmo, not **lambengolor... so...aiya lambengolmion
ancalima

who is this person? i would like to meet him :)) just kidding, you surely
dont refer to a single person but to many of the brightest loremasters...
you should put ancalima in the plural... ancalime

>Naa vanyas lambe
>It is a beautiful language

why did you put the -s after vanya? vanya is not the verb... you would mean
naas vanya lambe

>Lindeas ve avanya aiwion!
>It sings like the fairest of birds!

hmm hmm... lindis? aorist would be better since it is a general truth... you
forgot the n in avanya :)

>Merin quetis ilye luumenar
>I wish I could speak it all the time

quetis=it speaks.. if you are to add a pronoun as an object to an
infinitive, you should use its lenghtened form quetitas...
please dont try to use conditionals in Quenya (or Sindarin :)) since we dont
know their syntax...

however there are some others wishing formulas you could use...

merin sa poluvan(ye) quete quenya = i wish i will be able (lit. will can)
speak quenya
nai poluvan(ye) quete quenya = may i will be able to speak quenya

luumena is not a word for hour... luume is... so, ilye luumi

i see you are a beginner and its a very nice try... Helge surely does a good
job with his lessons :))))



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i recently encountered the word hecat! (thee stop!)
do we know anything about the 2nd person suffix -t?
is it to be related with acc. tye? or to CE 2nd person element -d? some
think that tye is related to *-cce... any suggestions?

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If final 'a' is replaced by the genitive ending '-o' as in
_Vardo_, what would be the genitives of words end with -oa,
such as _coa_, _hroa_, _loa_?

Just curious. Anybody can help me? Any real example/etymological
theory/phonological theory/suggestion?

Seo Sanghyeon

Suilad,

I just one simple question:

I think that in Quenya, a name like e.g. "Altariel" has 4 syllables :
al-ta-ri-el... am I wrong?

Well, my question is : how about "Galadriel" or "Níniel" in Sindarin? Is it
"ga-lad-ri-el" and "nii-ni-el" or rather "ga-lad-riel" and "nii-niel"?

Thanks in advance for you help,

Melhael


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Suilad,

In "The Book Of Lost Tales (2)", I found that in the QL cat was rendered as
"meoi" and that in GL it was "miaug, miog" for tomcat and "miauli", changed to
"miaulin" for she-cat...

In fact, I'm looking for words to translate both "she-cat" and "tom-cat" (in
sing. and plur.) in Sindarin. So I wondered wheter you could help me with that.

Could we have :

Sing.                Plur.
miaug              mioeg
miaulin            mioelin ?

It doesn't seem right to me somehow...

Thanks,


Melhael


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Melhael deithant:
>how about "Galadriel" or "Níniel" in Sindarin? Is it "ga-lad-ri-el" and
>"nii-ni-el" or rather "ga-lad-riel" and "nii-niel"?

'ga-LAD-ri-el', 'NII-ni-el'. In Sindarin, 'ie' is not a diphthong; and 'i'
is a vowel if preceded by a consonant, so it is not reduced to a 'y' glide.

Cuio mae, -Danny.

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Melhael deithant:
>I'm looking for words to translate both "she-cat" and "tom-cat" (in sing.
>and plur.) in Sindarin. So I wondered wheter you could help me with that.

>Could we have :
>
>Sing.                Plur.
>miaug              mioeg
>miaulin            mioelin ?
>
>It doesn't seem right to me somehow...

But it is right, I think. That is if 'miaug' and 'miaulin' are valid
Sindarin words carried over from Noldorin. Actually, I used 'mioeg' in my
translation of 'Jellicle Cats'!

Cuio mae, -Danny.

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D. Daniel Andriës wrote:


> 'ga-LAD-ri-el', 'NII-ni-el'. In Sindarin, 'ie' is not a diphthong; and 'i'
> is a vowel if preceded by a consonant, so it is not reduced to a 'y' glide.

Oops... I just noticed that I have been saying "Eriador" wrong for
decades, as if it were "Er-Iador".  So "er-I-a-dor" is the Right Thing,
evidently.

But I haven't been saying "BEL-er-iand", at least.

--
There is / one art             || John Cowan <jcowan@...>
no more / no less              || http://www.reutershealth.com
to do / all things             || http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
with art- / lessness           \\ -- Piet Hein

Suilad again,

First of all, thanks a lot to D. Daniel Andriës for the answers to my two last
questions. Well, as we say in French "jamais deux sans trois" (which means
something close to "after the second comes the third")...

If I wish to translate "against them" in Sindarin, is "dan chain" correct or do
pronouns remain unlenited ("dan hain")?

Thanks a lot,

Melhael


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Melhael deithant:
>If I wish to translate "against them" in Sindarin, is "dan chain" correct
>or do pronouns remain unlenited ("dan hain")?

The pronoun undergoes nasal mutation: 'chain' is correct. But I would drop
the 'n' from the end of 'dan': 'da chain'.

Cuio mae, -Danny.

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Suilad one more time,

I wonder now what the plural of "anann" (an+ann = longest) may be. My first
guess was "enainn" but then it ocurred to me that must a's followed by two
consonents generally had their plural in "e"... so would "enenn" be correct?

Thanks again,

Melhael


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You can buy the "Basic Quenya" with the text of the Plotz Letter and with
the facsimile of its fragment writing to Nancy Martsch, an editor of "Beyond
Bree". It is her address: beyondbree@...

Quite a good review of this book can be found at
http://www.elvish.org/articles\BQ.html

Cuio mae,

Ryszard Derdzinski
(Galadhorn)

maggot@... or galadhorn@...

"Gwaith-i-Phethdain" http://www.elvish.org/gwaith
"Polish Tolkien Society" http://www.parmadili.w.pl
"Silesian Homeland" http://www.kki.net.pl/~derdzinscy

*********************************************************************
"We each have our own personal linguistic potential: we each have a native
language. But that is not the language that we speak, our cradle-tongue, the
first-learned..."

John Ronald Reuel Tolkien "English and Welsh",
"The Monsters and the Critics", p. 190

*********************************************************************