I have finished a new chapter of my Quenya course...but as it turns out,
Lesson Eleven in its present form is probably way too long. I thought it
would be a good idea to discuss both the genitive case and the possessive
case in one lesson, contrasting them with one another. However, I suddenly
sit here with a lesson that is at least twice as long as most of the
others, and somewhat repetitive at that. So I seriously consider splitting
it into TWO lessons - dealing with the possessive/adjectival case
separately. But if you want to see the first complete draft, here it is -
the Siamese Lesson Eleven/Twelve, soon to be surgically split unless you
folks are really enthusiastic about it the way it is:

http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/less-c.rtf

Since I am not quite happy with it in its present form, you won't find it
in the index of the course yet.

- HF

>I have finished a new chapter of my Quenya course...but as it turns out,
>Lesson Eleven in its present form is probably way too long. I thought it
>would be a good idea to discuss both the genitive case and the possessive
>case in one lesson, contrasting them with one another. However, I suddenly
>sit here with a lesson that is at least twice as long as most of the
>others, and somewhat repetitive at that. So I seriously consider splitting
>it into TWO lessons - dealing with the possessive/adjectival case
>separately. But if you want to see the first complete draft, here it is -
>the Siamese Lesson Eleven/Twelve, soon to be surgically split unless you
>folks are really enthusiastic about it the way it is:
>
>http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/less-c.rtf
>
>Since I am not quite happy with it in its present form, you won't find it
>in the index of the course yet.


I haven't read it yet, but I shall and will give you my thoughts ( $0.02 )
on it.  From the first skim, it looks nice as it is, but thats just a
skim...

Namaarie,
Eruanno

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--- "Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@...>
> wrote:
>I have finished a new chapter of my Quenya course...but as it turns out,
>Lesson Eleven in its present form is probably way too long. I thought it
>would be a good idea to discuss both the genitive case and the possessive
>case in one lesson, contrasting them with one another. However, I suddenly
>sit here with a lesson that is at least twice as long as most of the
>others, and somewhat repetitive at that. So I seriously consider splitting
>it into TWO lessons - dealing with the possessive/adjectival case
>separately. But if you want to see the first complete draft, here it is -
>the Siamese Lesson Eleven/Twelve, soon to be surgically split unless you
>folks are really enthusiastic about it the way it is:
>
>http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/less-c.rtf
>

I for one think that splitting them is a good idea.  Have lesson 11 deal with
the general introduction to cases and genetive and 12 with the possesive and the
differences between them.  Once style critique.  I would point out Tolkien's
comment about the genetive case becomeing favored when you list it's sundry and
suprising uses.  IMHO, it would make the case seem less mysterious and daunting
with a multitude of uses to remember.

Namarie,
Cirk R. Bejnar
Eluchil

<snip>
>- HF


_____________________________________________________________
Free Email Forever You@...
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Dear Friends,

I want to announce that my website "Gwaith-i-Pheddain" has changed its URL.
Now it is http://necik.mag.com.pl/~galadhorn . It has two aliases too:
http://www.galadhorn.w.pl and http://galadhorn.go.to . Now the website has
new outlook and a few new Quenya texts. The actual server NECIK is much
better than the former one I hope the page will open faster in your
browsers.

The site will be available in its older not-acualized form in the old
location.

I am sorry for all inconvenience and I hope you will change this link if you
possess your website.

****************************************************

Namárië,

Ryszard Derdzinski
(Galadhorn)

galadhorn@... or galadhorn@...

"Gwaith-i-Pheddain" http://www.galadhorn.w.pl
"Polish Tolkien Society" http://www.parmadili.w.pl
"Silesian Homeland" http://www.kki.net.pl/~derdzinscy

************************************************************************
Richard = GALADHORN < gala- 'prosperous, rich, blessed' (LR 357) + dorn
'stiff, tough, *hard' (WJ 413)

>
>I have finished a new chapter of my Quenya course...but as it turns out,
>Lesson Eleven in its present form is probably way too long. I thought it
>would be a good idea to discuss both the genitive case and the possessive
>case in one lesson, contrasting them with one another. However, I suddenly
>sit here with a lesson that is at least twice as long as most of the
>others, and somewhat repetitive at that. So I seriously consider splitting
>it into TWO lessons - dealing with the possessive/adjectival case
>separately. But if you want to see the first complete draft, here it is -
>the Siamese Lesson Eleven/Twelve, soon to be surgically split unless you
>folks are really enthusiastic about it the way it is:
>
>http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/less-c.rtf
>
>Since I am not quite happy with it in its present form, you won't find it
>in the index of the course yet.
>
>- HF
>

Personally, I think the advantages of dealing with the genitive and
possessive in the same lesson outweighs the length. 22 pages isn't what I'd
call terribly long afterall. Also, if you do split it up, you'll have to
write twice as many exercises! ;-)

                                                   Andreas
PS The bit "(unless copyright was a big issue in Valinor)" made me wonder;
is JRRT and the Tolkien Estate's relationship with the linguistic material
JRRT created best described in Q by the genitive or the possessive? I'd vote
for the genitive ... ;-)

PPS And please don't start another copyright discussion. The above bit was
just a little joke I couldn't resist.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

It was suggested  that I check this word coined by me with you guys at
Elfling. As I am a calligrapher, I wished to have a Sindarin word for
'calligraphy' available to me. Following the example of the Greek roots of
the word, I used the word 'bain' for 'beautiful'. From 'teitha-' we get the
gerund 'teithad'. We are told that the second element of a compound word
often has the initial letter lenited, and it has a better sound in this
case, besides. So I have the word 'baindeithad'. Some friends have suggested
that 'teithad' may only have the meaning of 'the act of writing' and that
'bainteithad' would mean 'the act of writing with calligraphy' rather than
the art itself. So, what are some of your opinions? Any better suggestions
for the word 'calligraphy'?

D. Daniel Andriës (Uialdil).
_________________________________________________________________
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In a Sindarin Dictionary search I've found the word I've been looking
for (Golwen - Wise; Learned In Deep Arts) And I don't know if it is
pronounced Gol-wen or Go-lw-en or anything  like that. Please help me,
and if you think Golwen is not the right word, mail-me the correct form,

Námarië;
Vëon (André)

Andreas Johansson wrote:

> >There is a theory that the accusative had actually the ending _-h_
> >(or similar) which was lost in Q, but the preceding vowel remained
> >long.
> >E.g. nom. *ciryaa > _cirya_, acc. *ciryaah > _ciryaa_.
> >(I saw Helge Fauskanger use this strategy when he tried to
> >reconstruct a PQ text of the 'Sheep and Horses' fairy-tale some
> >time ago.)
> >
> >Once David Salo was describing what is actually in the Plotz
> >Letter. He wrote that the accusative sg. ends in some morpheme
> >whose phonetical realization is the lengthening of the final vowel.
> >At the end of the letter he suggested how to decline i-stem
> >nouns as _pore_ "flour" (< *pori). He gave _porii_ as the acc. sg.
> >of _pore_ (_porii_ acc. pl., _porilii_ acc. lii-plural, _porit_ acc.
> >dual).
> >
> >It is likely that I misunderstood something badly, but it seems to
> >me that these above-mentioned statements contradict. The PQ
> >of CE form of _pore_ is *pori and if the -h was added, then it
> >would produce *porih which would become _pori_, hence
> >no long final vowel.
> >
> >(It is also possible that _porii_ acc. sg. is David's typo, but
> >I am not competent to determine it.)
>
> I certainly don't presume to know what David Salo intended,

**Neither do I. Maybe David Salo himself could tell
us what he meant.

> but one possible
> solution would be that the lost *_-h_  causes a preceding short vowel to
> lengthen (thus negating the long/short distinction in this particular
> position).

**It might be possible.

> >Now what about the _nat_-nouns? What about the nouns which
> >end in a consonant in Q, but ended in a vowel in CE or PQ?
> >E.g. PQ *kwene > CE *kween > Q _queen_. Could the acc. of
> >_queen_ be (*kweneh >) _quene_?
> >Helge's PQ text shows *atanoh as the acc. of *atano (Q _atan_
> >"a man"), but the Q text has simply _atan_ (but it is true
> >that in the text there is no accusative specially marked).
> >
> >I would like to know what you think about the accusative
> >of words ending in a consonant.
>
> My best quess is that the original short vowel returns (still short). So the
> Q acc of _atan_ would be *_atano_ etc. Then there's the question if there
> were any words that ended in a consonant at the most primitive stage.

**That is the question. Seems it is not so, though Letter no. 211
says that elen was "star" in the primitive Elvish. But this may be
rather the CE stage than the PQ one. Indeed, elen is labeled
CE in WJ:360.

> If
> there weren't, the the only problem is to guess what vowel a word like _nat_
> have lost.

**I would say it is an _a_: nata > _nat_

> If there were, well they still presumably had a distinct
> accustive, perhaps in *_-eh_ or *_-ah_ to break up the otherwise resulting
> cluster.

**The Plotz Letter gives nom. and acc. dual of _cirya_ as _ciryat_.
Very likely _ciryat_ represents older cirjata. If so, then there was
no distinct assusative in Book Quenya.
("... the Q duals were purely numerative (element _ata_) and pairs
(element _uu_ as seen in _Alduuya_)..." Letter no. 347)

> But if I could I'd steer away from the acc of consonant-final words until
> there's more evidence.

**I was not going to use it. I was just curious. : )


Ales Bican

--
**Flowers blossom. In the winter time. (Moloko, _The time is now_)

Dear Lambengolmor,

Thank you to all who have supported me with advice concerning the Quenya
pronominal elements.

My recent interest are dialects of Sindarin, especially the North Sindarin
dialect. Reading "The War of the Jewels" I found that there wasn't
intervocalic mutation of _m_ in North Sindarin (normally Old Sindarin VmV >
Middle Sindarin VmhV > Sindarin VvV, where 'V' is a vowel]. In other words
we don't notice _lenition_ or _soft mutation_ of _m_ in this northern
dialect. Does it mean that in North Sindarin there is no lenition at all?

Maybe in North Sindarin the typical Western and Doriathric mutations didn't
occur at all? If so, the dialect must be very archaic and the North Sindar
of the Mithrim must have migrated northward from Beleriand before the Middle
Sindarin or in Early Middle Sindarin period. If so, we can deduct such an
evolution of Sindarin in the Beleriandic period (regarding only Old Sindarin
and Middle Sindarin)

1150         1152     1200        1350             1497
__________|______|_________________|___
Common           Old-    Early                      Late
Telerin                          Middle-                  Middle-

                                       Early                            Late
                                       North                           North
                                     Sindarin                      Sindarin
__________|______|_________________|___

I suppose that North Sindarin began its evolution in Early Middle Sindarin
period, before diphthongization of long _o_ > _au_ and before the
intervocalic _m_ > _mh_. But when Middle Sindarin began its loss of the
final vowels it must have been still in contact with North Sindarin where we
observe the same process.

How do you think what phonological processes we can deduct from the
'corpus'? Do you agree that North Sindarin can be deprived of the soft
mutations (I mean not only lenition of _m_ but also of another consonants)?

Namárië,

Ryszard Derdzinski
(Galadhorn)

galadhorn@... or galadhorn@...

"Gwaith-i-Pheddain" http://www.galadhorn.w.pl
"Polish Tolkien Society" http://www.parmadili.w.pl
"Silesian Homeland" http://www.kki.net.pl/~derdzinscy

************************************************************************
Richard = GALADHORN < gala- 'prosperous, rich, blessed' (LR 357) + dorn
'stiff, tough, *hard' (WJ 413)

************************************************************************

CAILA, I n. sickness. II adj. lying in bed. [Ety/363]
CAIMA, n.  bed, couch. [Ety/363, see also QQ/46]
CAIMASAN (caimasamb-), n.  bedchamber, bed-room. [Ety/387, see also QQ/46]
CAIMASAMBI, n. pl. of caimasan. [Ety/387]
CAIMASSE, n. a sick person in bed (?). [Ety/363]
CAIMASSEA, adj. bedridden (?), sick (?). [Ety/363]

This is how I interpret the Q. words given in "The Etymologies". But I'm not
sure at all about the meanings of :

CAILA, CAIMASSE and CAIMASSEA.

Any though ?

EJK

QQ = Qenyaqetsa.

Hello. I am looking for someone who is capable of translating English into
poetic (musically) Quenya or Sindarin. I am writing an opera, and my
librettist and I are investigating the possibility of using an Elvish
language. If you can put me in touch with someone, I would be very grateful.
That person should also be willing to tutor myself and my librettist.

Thank you,
Richard deCosta, Composer
http://www.mp3.com/RicharddeCosta

Veon wrote:
>In a Sindarin Dictionary search I've found the word I've been looking
>for (Golwen - Wise; Learned In Deep Arts) And I don't know if it is
>pronounced Gol-wen or Go-lw-en or anything  like that. Please help me,
>and if you think Golwen is not the right word, mail-me the correct form,

    Unlike Welsh, Sindarin always uses w as a consonant, never as a vowel.
So Golwen is Gol-wen.

/\     WISTR LAG WIGS RAIHTS
\/            WRAIQS NU IST                               <> David Salo
<dsalo@...> <>

Daniel AndriÎs wrote:

> So I have the word 'baindeithad'. Some friends have suggested
>that 'teithad' may only have the meaning of 'the act of writing' and that
>'bainteithad' would mean 'the act of writing with calligraphy' rather than
>the art itself. So, what are some of your opinions? Any better suggestions
>for the word 'calligraphy'?

    I see no particular reason why it should not be _possible_ for the
semantic shift from "act of writing" to "thing written" to occur (as it
does in English); it certainly occurs in some cases in Sindarin, in some
cases to the exclusion of the original meaning.  Barad means "tower", not
"act of raising".  Genediad is not just an "act of counting" but a system
of reckoning (time).  If you want to be on firmer ground, substitute -as
for -ad: teithas - *tektasse.
    *Banya- would take the form bein-, not bain- when not at the end of the
word.  The next element would be lenited (-deithad).  I'd be inclined to
use something more like maeddeithad (skilled/shapely writing).

/\     WISTR LAG WIGS RAIHTS
\/            WRAIQS NU IST                               <> David Salo
<dsalo@...> <>

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the elfling
group.

   File        : /QUENYA CORPUS WORDLIST.zip
   Uploaded by : thiago-lemon@...
   Description : A copy of the QUENYA CORPUS WORDLIST

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfling/files/QUENYA+CORPUS+WORDLIST.zip

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

thiago-lemon@...
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms

David Salo a écrit:
>
> Daniel AndriÎs wrote:
>
> > So I have the word 'baindeithad'. Some friends have suggested
> >that 'teithad' may only have the meaning of 'the act of writing' and that
> >'bainteithad' would mean 'the act of writing with calligraphy' rather than
> >the art itself. So, what are some of your opinions? Any better suggestions
> >for the word 'calligraphy'?
>
>    I see no particular reason why it should not be _possible_ for the
> semantic shift from "act of writing" to "thing written" to occur (as it
> does in English); it certainly occurs in some cases in Sindarin, in some
> cases to the exclusion of the original meaning.  Barad means "tower", not
> "act of raising".  Genediad is not just an "act of counting" but a system
> of reckoning (time).  If you want to be on firmer ground, substitute -as
> for -ad: teithas - *tektasse.
>    *Banya- would take the form bein-, not bain- when not at the end of the
> word.  The next element would be lenited (-deithad).  I'd be inclined to
> use something more like maeddeithad (skilled/shapely writing).
>

Why not use the word Tolkien himself made for one "skilled in calligraphy"?
Please read PMe, page 318, note 7.

EJK

I was not able to upload this file ; says file does not exist...

Could you explain what is this file for and why have you made it?

Looks like you made a "word list". If this is the case? How did you made it?
Your corpus is accurate? Or is is just acopy of some other list floating on
the Web? etc. & etc.

Please be specific, thank you.

EJK

elfling@yahoogroups.com a écrit:
>
> Hello,
>
> This email message is a notification to let you know that
> a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the elfling
> group.
>
>   File        : /QUENYA CORPUS WORDLIST.zip
>   Uploaded by : thiago-lemon@...
>   Description : A copy of the QUENYA CORPUS WORDLIST
>
> You can access this file at the URL
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfling/files/QUENYA+CORPUS+WORDLIST.zip
>
> To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit
>
> http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files
>
> Regards,
>
> thiago-lemon@...
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms
>
>
>
> --
> Manager address: elfling-owner@egroups.com
> Unsub address: elfling-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> Elfling welcome: http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea/elfling.html
> Elfling FAQ: http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea/elfaq.html

I would like to look it up; no library or bookstore in my city has "The
Peoples of Middle-Earth", so I can't. Danny Andriës.

On Mon, 5 Feb 2001, Edward J. Kloczko wrote:

> I was not able to upload this file ; says file does not exist...
>
> Could you explain what is this file for and why have you made it?

	 It's just a copy of the "Quenya Corpus Wordlist" written by Mr.
Helge "Ardalambion" Fauskanger :-)


	 Saluti,
	 Emanuele.

	 "He loved maps, as I have told you before; and he also
	 liked runes and letters and cunning handwriting..."
		 -- J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit

DDanielA@... a écrit:
>
> I would like to look it up; no library or bookstore in my city has "The
> Peoples of Middle-Earth", so I can't. Danny Andriës.
>

Too bad... Humm...

So here it is : _Tegilbor_ is the word made by Tolkien himself meaning in
Sindarin "One skilled in calligraphy", _tegil_ is a Noldorin neologism for
"pen", from Quenya "tekil". So in Q. *Tekilquar (*Tecilquar) was a name
probably of the same meaning. Both were used as "(nick)names" too.

EJK

P.S. Don't forget "Amaz..", etc. ;-)

Did you Helge give the assent to it?

EJK

Vicentini Emanuele a écrit:
>
> On Mon, 5 Feb 2001, Edward J. Kloczko wrote:
>
> > I was not able to upload this file ; says file does not exist...
> >
> > Could you explain what is this file for and why have you made it?
>
>         It's just a copy of the "Quenya Corpus Wordlist" written by Mr.
> Helge "Ardalambion" Fauskanger :-)
>
>         Saluti,
>         Emanuele.
>
>         "He loved maps, as I have told you before; and he also
>         liked runes and letters and cunning handwriting..."
>                 -- J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit
>
> --
> Manager address: elfling-owner@egroups.com
> Unsub address: elfling-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> Elfling welcome: http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea/elfling.html
> Elfling FAQ: http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea/elfaq.html

>Did you Helge give the assent to it?

** And why can't the file stay on Ardalambion (where it "belongs")????

** Greg

>
>EJK
>
>Vicentini Emanuele a écrit:
> >
> > On Mon, 5 Feb 2001, Edward J. Kloczko wrote:
> >
> > > I was not able to upload this file ; says file does not exist...
> > >
> > > Could you explain what is this file for and why have you made it?
> >
> >         It's just a copy of the "Quenya Corpus Wordlist" written by Mr.
> > Helge "Ardalambion" Fauskanger :-)
> >
> >         Saluti,
> >         Emanuele.


_________________________________________________________________
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I've got the file at last.

In a txt. file, M. Arfanyaras writes :

>The Quenya Corpus Wordlist, is a file that I downloaded from a site that, I'm
>sorry, but I just can't remember the adress. I hope everyone enjoy it's
>reading (I know you will!)

At the end of the "The Quenya Corpus Wordlist" file, that M. Arfanyaras put
for "us", there *IS* a link to the Ardalambion site by Helge.

???

Mr Arfanyaras have not read the FAQ of Elfling, I guess.

It is now up to Helge, who made that "The Quenya Corpus
Wordlist", to say if he is OK or not.

Namárie

EJK

******

Vicentini Emanuele a écrit:
>
> On Mon, 5 Feb 2001, Edward J. Kloczko wrote:
>
> > I was not able to upload this file ; says file does not exist...
> >
> > Could you explain what is this file for and why have you made it?
>
>         It's just a copy of the "Quenya Corpus Wordlist" written by Mr.
> Helge "Ardalambion" Fauskanger :-)
>
>         Saluti,
>         Emanuele..

//Meta info : sub=reply + request for clarification - auth=greg dyke//

Richard de Costa wrote:

>Hello. I am looking for someone who is capable of translating English into
>poetic (musically) Quenya or Sindarin. I am writing an opera, and my
>librettist and I are investigating the possibility of using an Elvish
>language. If you can put me in touch with someone, I would be very
>grateful.
>That person should also be willing to tutor myself and my librettist.

Obviously, this may not be visible from an outside perspective (although
Elfling FAQ is quite concise about the possibilities and the does and don'ts
of tolkien's languages), but NO ONE can be sure of translating any given
sentence into quenya or sindarin, let alone satisfy any *musical*
requirements you may have. This is because we have many gaps, both in the
vocabulary and grammar departments.

Although many (including myself) would be only too pleased to see any form
of tolkien's languages (provided this form were correct to a satisfying
extent) in an opera or any other artistic production, others frown upon any
form that tolkien did not specify as being correct (here as for above, one
may question the limits of the correct/satisfyingly correct).

There is also the question of copyright : as an opera implies a commercial
production (ie. people will be paying to see it), I am not certain that any
of tolkien's languages could/should be used in such a manner without the
permission of the tolkien estate.

However, as there are very few people who would even want to include
tolkien's languages in an opera, it would be a shame not to persue this
attempt to the full. I would therefore advise you to ask the permission of
the tolkien estate, browse through Ardalambion, the Elfling  FAQ and the
Quenya FAQ to see the limits of Quenya (any other language is nigh on
impossible to translate into) and submit a little more of the substance you
would like translated to elfling, that we may determine how feasable this
project is.

I would for my part be willing to give any assistance I may but there are
many people whose knowledge is greater than mine, and my musical background
is virtually non-existant.

As a parting note, I leave here the links to the sites I suggested and the
link to what I consider the most beautiful piece of *post-tolkien* quenya,
an adaptation of Poe's Eldorado by Candon Clannach (some correction
followed, but it is for the most part correct) to give you an idea of what
is correct...

Eldamar:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfling/message/2037

Ardalambion:
http://www.uib.no/people/hnohf

Elfling FAQ:
http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea/elfaq.html

Quenya FAQ:
http://www.geocities.com/almacq.geo/quenya/faq.html

Greg Dyke


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

//Meta info : sub=reply + request for clarification - auth=greg dyke//

Richard de Costa wrote:

>Hello. I am looking for someone who is capable of translating English into
>poetic (musically) Quenya or Sindarin. I am writing an opera, and my
>librettist and I are investigating the possibility of using an Elvish
>language. If you can put me in touch with someone, I would be very
>grateful.
>That person should also be willing to tutor myself and my librettist.

Obviously, this may not be visible from an outside perspective (although
Elfling FAQ is quite concise about the possibilities and the does and don'ts
of tolkien's languages), but NO ONE can be sure of translating any given
sentence into quenya or sindarin, let alone satisfy any *musical*
requirements you may have. This is because we have many gaps, both in the
vocabulary and grammar departments.

Although many (including myself) would be only too pleased to see any form
of tolkien's languages (provided this form were correct to a satisfying
extent) in an opera or any other artistic production, others frown upon any
form that tolkien did not specify as being correct (here as for above, one
may question the limits of the correct/satisfyingly correct).

There is also the question of copyright : as an opera implies a commercial
production (ie. people will be paying to see it), I am not certain that any
of tolkien's languages could/should be used in such a manner without the
permission of the tolkien estate.

However, as there are very few people who would even want to include
tolkien's languages in an opera, it would be a shame not to persue this
attempt to the full. I would therefore advise you to ask the permission of
the tolkien estate, browse through Ardalambion, the Elfling  FAQ and the
Quenya FAQ to see the limits of Quenya (any other language is nigh on
impossible to translate into) and submit a little more of the substance you
would like translated to elfling, that we may determine how feasable this
project is.

I would for my part be willing to give any assistance I may but there are
many people whose knowledge is greater than mine, and my musical background
is virtually non-existant.

As a parting note, I leave here the links to the sites I suggested and the
link to what I consider the most beautiful piece of *post-tolkien* quenya,
an adaptation of Poe's Eldorado by Candon Clannach (some correction
followed, but it is for the most part correct) to give you an idea of what
is correct...

Eldamar:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfling/message/2037

Ardalambion:
http://www.uib.no/people/hnohf

Elfling FAQ:
http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea/elfaq.html

Quenya FAQ:
http://www.geocities.com/almacq.geo/quenya/faq.html

Greg Dyke


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In a message dated 2/4/01 5:22:57 PM Eastern Standard Time,
rdecost1@... writes:

<< Hello. I am looking for someone who is capable of translating English into
  poetic (musically) Quenya or Sindarin. I am writing an opera, and my
  librettist and I are investigating the possibility of using an Elvish
  language. If you can put me in touch with someone, I would be very grateful.
  That person should also be willing to tutor myself and my librettist.
   >>


Hm -- interesting thought. Although my skills in Quenya and Sindarin are
mediocre to say the least, my musical skill is quite a great deal more
sharp... and it leads me to a more than slightly off-topic question -- then
again, there's nowhere else to ask it to my knowledge, so it's worth a shot.
I was just inquiring upon our knowledge of Elven music -- I mean, did Tolkien
mention any elven modes? Or was the music penta or septatonic, like the
reconstructed Chinese music? Are there any words that might hint at Elvish
musical tastes? It would intrigue me to know...

Sorry for the annoyance to them that are in severe disapproval of leading the
list off-topic, I was just... curious.

Nicholas D. Kontovas

>> >(It is also possible that _porii_ acc. sg. is David's typo, but
>> >I am not competent to determine it.)
>>
>> I certainly don't presume to know what David Salo intended,
>
>**Neither do I. Maybe David Salo himself could tell
>us what he meant.

     It would have been a typo if I had been trying to describe a declension
for the case system in normal Quenya, where words of more than one syllable
simply don't end in long vowels.  The normal Quenya equivalent to *porii
certainly should be _pori_.  But the "Book Quenya" of the declension in Mr.
Plotz's letter diverges from ordinary Quenya in several respects, one of
which is the preservation of long final vowels in the Accusative and
Genitive singular, in the Nominative/Accusative plural for some nouns, and
in the -lii plural (whose normal Quenya equivalent is -i).  Since the
formation of the accusative singular is by lengthening of the stem vowel, I
naturally assumed that the acc.sg. of *pori would be *porii; likewise, the
nom. and acc. plurals.  But for normal ("Spoken") Quenya the declension
should be:

	 Sg. Pl.  Li-Pl.  Dual
N. pore pori  porili  porit
A. pori pori  porili  porit
G. porio porion  porilion porito
I. porinen porínen  porilínen porinten
Al. porinna porinnar porilinnar porinta
D. porin porin  porilin  porin
Loc. porisse porissen porilisse(n) poritse
? poris poris  porilis  --
Abl. porillo porillon porilillo(n) porilto
Adj. poriva --  porilíva --

/\     WISTR LAG WIGS RAIHTS
\/            WRAIQS NU IST                               <> David Salo
<dsalo@...> <>

Ryszard Derdzinski wrote:

>My recent interest are dialects of Sindarin, especially the North Sindarin
>dialect. Reading "The War of the Jewels" I found that there wasn't
>intervocalic mutation of _m_ in North Sindarin (normally Old Sindarin VmV >
>Middle Sindarin VmhV > Sindarin VvV, where 'V' is a vowel]. In other words
>we don't notice _lenition_ or _soft mutation_ of _m_ in this northern
>dialect. Does it mean that in North Sindarin there is no lenition at all?

>How do you think what phonological processes we can deduct from the
>'corpus'? Do you agree that North Sindarin can be deprived of the soft
>mutations (I mean not only lenition of _m_ but also of another consonants)?

   No, I don't think so.  The lenition of m is a special case and probably
occurred separately from the other mutations.  A change of the scope you
propose would probably have rendered North Sindarin unintelligible to other
Sindarin dialects, which I do not think was Tolkien's intention.  In any
case, the example of the N.S. Celegorm < *Kyelekormo clearly shows lenition
of k>g.

/\     WISTR LAG WIGS RAIHTS
\/            WRAIQS NU IST                               <> David Salo
<dsalo@...> <>

Hello,

>CAILA, I n. sickness. II adj. lying in bed. [Ety/363]
>CAIMASSE, n. a sick person in bed (?). [Ety/363]
>CAIMASSEA, adj. bedridden (?), sick (?). [Ety/363]


I think "caila" is only a noun - by "lying in bed" is in my opinion in the Etym
meant the STATE of lying - i.e. sickness (Tolkien often gives both the
"etymological" and the "real" meaning: like "calen" "bright-coloured, green". I
think this is the same case. But you are right that the -la ending suggests
rather a participle. However it seems improbable that one and the same word were
both abstract noun and participle (adjective). I would be glad to accept "caila"
in the sense of participle, if this was the only meaning given.

I think "caimasse" is rather an abstract from "caima", and means more or less
the same as "caile" - that is "the state of being ill, of lying in bed".
"kaimassea" in my opinion corresponds to "caeleb" "sick", the "caimasse" is
given in the Etym only to mark the etymology, and if "caimassea" is to be
"sick", then "caimasse" must be "sickness".

Perhaps the pair "caimasse", "caimassea" is meant to correspond to "cael",
"caeleb", and "caila" is given only as a hypothetical or little used
etymological Quenya counterpart to "cael". as I am thinking about it, this seems
to me the most probable.
But - could not in fact "caila" be "caile"? That would fit very well - comp.
"tuile", "laitale" etc. - these are verbal nouns. Then there would be (or
originally have been) a slight difference between "caile" and "caimasse" -
"caile" would rather mean the actual process of "being sick", something that
begins, lasts and ends, whereas "caimasse" would be more general word, simply
"illness"... I think "caila" for "caile" is a very possible error, and "caile"
seems to be much better for the meanings given than "caila"...

Well, these were some thoughts, but I am afraid I am not one whose philological
thoughts are of much value...

Lukas

> Did you Helge give the assent to it?

No, I haven't granted anyone permission to upload my Quenya Corpus
Wordlist. Not that I am going to do anything about it.

Why bother to upload it? It is already on my page, free for anyone to
DOWN-load from there:

http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/qlist.htm

BTW, one of these days I must get around to adding the new words from
Vinyar Tengwar 41...

- HF

---------Original message----------
Hm -- interesting thought. Although my skills in Quenya and Sindarin are
mediocre to say the least, my musical skill is quite a great deal more
sharp... and it leads me to a more than slightly off-topic question -- then
again, there's nowhere else to ask it to my knowledge, so it's worth a shot.
I was just inquiring upon our knowledge of Elven music -- I mean, did Tolkien
mention any elven modes? Or was the music penta or septatonic, like the
reconstructed Chinese music? Are there any words that might hint at Elvish
musical tastes? It would intrigue me to know...
--------------


I found this site some time ago, maybe it can help you:
http://www.tcinternet.net/users/jfinnamore/df/maptree.html

//David

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