Over the years and especially recently, I've had a lot of questions asked me
(and probably more have been raised without asking me) about my language work on
the films of The Lord of the Rings, and, more recently, of The Hobbit: An
Unexpected Journey.

To answer all these questions individually would involve a great deal of
repetition, and the answers would remain unavailable to other people who may
have similar questions. In order to address them in a (hopefully) orderly way,
and to make the answers available to anyone who wants to search for them, I've
started a blog, called "Midgardsmal," located at the following URL:

midgardsmal.com.

If you have a Twitter account, you can check to see if there is a new blog post
by following this account:

twitter.com/Midgardsmal

The purpose of the Midgardsmal blog is to discuss questions related to the
versions of Tolkien's languages used in the films, and particularly to the
languages which were in large part newly invented for the films: Khuzdul (or
"Neo-Khuzdul"), Black Speech, and various Orkish dialects.

Quite a lot of material was invented in these languages -- more than appears in
the films -- and it will take a while to cover all the questions that have been
asked and might be asked. So I expect this blog to be an ongoing project for
several years, and possibly indefinitely -- I may continue inventing and
extending these languages as time goes on.

The blog is a work in progress, and I expect that it will change as I continue
to work through it. At the moment I see it as being partly narrative, partly
analysis, because the way these languages look now is rooted in the story of how
they came to be, though that is fairly straightforward. But I will be discussing
some specifics of how the languages are constructed, and -- insofar as I can
remember it -- some information about the sources of inspiration and the process
of invention.

I welcome comments and questions on and in the blog, and if I see a pattern of
interest in one sort of information or another, I may be able to give priority
to discussing those questions. The comments policy is posted on the blog.

I hope this blog will be a useful tool for those who are interested in the
languages of the film, and perhaps for those who are interested in constructed
languages in general.

David Salo

"In quietness and trust will be your strength."

I suggested:

_Quildesse ar estelde nauvar túrelda_.


I went on to worry about whether a sentence with two subjects should
have a dual verb. My bad: the whole question is of course irrelevant here.

The subject is "your strength", singular, NOT "quietness and trust"!  So
the verb should be _nauva_, singular.

Thinking too much and too little at the same time ... not a good idea!

- HKF


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Instead of _túre_ which is more like 'control, mastery', one could consider
_melehte_ glossed as 'might, power' (inherent) (PE17:115); it might fit the bill
better.

Yours,

Atwe

Languages of Middle-Earth community on G+:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities/105957840800720660334



________________________________
  From: Julian Bradfield <jcb+elfling@...>
To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 9:45 PM
Subject: Re: [elfling] Re: Need for help for a translation

On 2013-02-16, Helge K. Fauskanger <helge.fauskanger@...> wrote:
> "In quietness and trust will be your strength."
....
> _Quildesse ar estelde nauvar túrelda_.
> Or: _Mi quilde ar estel nauvar túrelda._
....
> One unresolved problem: Should the verb be dual (ending -t) whenever
> there are two subjects? If so, read _nauvat_. We know that a dual verb

Since the subject is singular (túrelda), this problem does not arise;-)

--
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.



------------------------------------

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello,

c> Írë i túrë melmëo (melmo)

It's  suggested  to  prepend  the  noun in genitive to the subject, so
"melmeo  túre" is better here. And as someone has already pointed out,
"melehte"  would  be  better than "túre".

c> lahtuvas i melmë an túrë (túrën),

I'm  not sure about the "lahta-" usage but yes, it seems the best word
so  far.  As  for  "love  for  power",  I'd  use  "melme  melehten" or
"melmemelehte" (but that sounds really awful to my Elvish ear :-)).

c> tá (i) irmin

The  word "irmin" is marked as "hardly valid" in Helge's dictionary. I
wouldn't  use  something  Helge  claims  to be invalid or even "hardly
valid"  if  there's  no  particular reasons to do so (for instance, my
heart  is all against using "-s" for both genders in third person). So
prefer  using  "ambar" or "mar" (or, in your case, I'd use even "Arda"
as the world in its wholeness).

                              c> istuvantë (istuvaltë) (istuvas) i rainë.

Simply "istuva". You have a subject (Arda, as I proposed). So you have
not to place an ending. If you say "istuvas", that means "know-will-it"
(ist-uva-s),  so  the  "it"  is  superfluous  here  -  you have "Arda"
already.
Hope this helps)

--
Tenna rato,
Menelion.

Thank you, Helge. It's been a while since I last read any of my languages
materials, and I wasn't at all sure how to go about potential reconstructions.
I've been working in a library for a couple of years, and I wanted to find words
connected to books, reading and readers.

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@...>
wrote:
>
> There was a question about the Sindarin word for "read".
>
> We don't seem to have an attested verb. The cognate of Quenya _henta-_ would
be either *_henna-_, *_henha-_ or *_hentha-_, depending on which version of the
diachronic phonology you want to use. I would prefer *_henna-_.
>
> We do have some late examples where Tolkien wants earlier _nt_ to yield
Sindarin _nh_ (unvoiced N), so that the cognate of Quenya _anta-_ "give" becomes
_anha-_ (PE17:93). But this contradicts a statement in Appendix E to the effect
that the sound _nh_ was exceedingly rare in the languages written in Tengwar (so
that the letter theoretically representing _nh_ was actually used for other
sounds). Tolkien had apparently forgotten this when he tried to revise the
phonology in a way that would make _nh_ a fairly common sound in Sindarin.
>
It's apparently a "Problem of Ros": the proposed revision is invalid because it
contradicts statements appearing in already-published material.
>
> - HKF
>

Nice!

<mailto:cdimitra@...?subject=Re%3A%20your%20help%20is%20kindly%20requested\
%21>


cdmitra wanted to translate:

   "When the power of love overcomes the love for power, then the world
shall know peace"

I'd say: _Íre melmeo túre lahta melme túreva, ambar istuva raine._

Or we can have an explicit future tense: _lantuva_.

You write "melme an túre" for "love for power", but this is an
Anglicism, I think. The Tolkien example _Nurtale Valinóreva_ "Hiding of
Valinor" indicates that the -va case is used for "object genitive"
following an abstract verb: Valinor is what is hidden by the "hiding".
Similarly, power is what is loved by the "love" in the phrase _melme
túreva_.

- HKF
<mailto:cdimitra@...?subject=Re%3A%20your%20help%20is%20kindly%20requested\
%21>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello and congratulations for your wonderful group!!

I am new in the field so I would appreciate some help with a translation
I have been doing. The original phrase is: “When the power of
love overcomes the love for power, then the world shall know
peace.�

   I tried to translate it in Quenya and here are the results of my
effort:


Írë i túrë melmëo (melmo) lahtuvas i melmë an
túrë (túrën), tá (i) irmin istuvantë
(istuvaltë) (istuvas) i rainë. The words in the parenthesis are
the points where I am not sure.


I will welcome any comments. It is very important to me if I could get
it right!  Thank you





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Helge,


HKF> Similarly, power is what is loved by the "love" in the phrase _melme
HKF> túreva_.

       Interesting.  So  could  you  point  out  the difference between
genitive, possessive and dative in those phrases, please?
                                                   Thank you!

--
Menelion.

Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:48 am (PST) . Posted by:


       "TF" percival64
      
<mailto:percival64@...?subject=Re%3A%20Need%20for%20help%20for%20a%20trans\
lation>





  > Instead of _túre_ which is more like 'control, mastery' one could
consider _melehte_ glossed as 'might, power' (inherent) (PE17:115); it
might fit the bill better.

Yes, I agree. I wasn't quite happy with the word _túre_ (which I
generally use to mean "power") as a translation of "strength".

So perhaps: _Mi quilde ar estel nauva melehtelda._

- HKF


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Menelion wrote:

  > Interesting. So could you point out the difference between genitive,
possessive and dative in those phrases, please? Thank you!

I don't think we have any examples of dative following an abstract noun.

The attested examples are:

1. -o case ("genitive") in connection with an abstract verbal noun
indicates "subject genitive":

Tolkien example: _Oiencarme Eruo_, "God's perpectual production"
(oiencarme, apparently "ever-re-making"). Eru is DOING the "perpetual
production", he is not the one "produced". (MR:471).

2. -va case in connection with an abstract verbal noun indicates "object
genitive"

Tolkien example: _Nurtale Valinóreva_, "hiding of Valinor" (Valinor is
what is hidden)

3. Dative would presumably indicate the "beneficiary" of the verbal
action denoted by the verbal noun.

No Tolkien example; we could imagine something like *_antie penyain_
"giving to poor ones".

We could have all three together in a phrase like *_i arano antie
massava penyain_ "the king's giving (of) bread to poor ones".

- HKF

So, what's the best translation ?

"Mi quilde ar estel nauva melehtelda" ?

No "túrelda" ? Is "Sívenen ar estelden nauva túrelda." right ?

I have many difficulties to know what's right, what's wrong...

Rebecca Joanne Ashling
If anyone wants to write a Buffy/LotR crossover then here is the perfect
Sindarin (Grey Elvish) name for Buffy:

Nadhriel

nan = valley
riel = maiden

"valley girl"
----------
So what would her full title be?



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

to Menelion and Helge,

A million times thanks guys!!! You have given me a lot more than I expected to
get from this post! You really know many things about Tolkien¢s languages!

Sorry but I will stick to “irmin”, because I really liked that word
and I think it is the most accurate for “all people” or
“humankind”. When I say “the world shall know peace” I
don¢t mean the soil or the mountains. It does not matter if it is valid today,
Tolkien used it at least one time and that is enough for me.

That point “love for power” leally made me sweat! So what should I
write: lahta melme túreva
Lahtuva melme tureva
Or lantuva melme tureva?

again many thanks!!!

Hello Elfling members,

I wrote a Periodization of the Northman languages of Rhovanion here:

https://sites.google.com/site/endorenya/language-periodizations

I've started to fill in the other language families too, but they aren't dated
yet.

Note: In the case of the Northman language, the real-world "inspirations" (Old
English, Old Norse, and so forth) would be used for "fictively translating" the
Northman languages. For the other language families, these "inspirations" are
handles for imagining what those actual languages and their cultures might be
like.

Actually laying it out helps me make sense of it all. And it reveals where
things still don't quite fit together.

One difficulty is that JRRT said that the Beorian and Hadorian languages already
diverged at the Sea of Rhun in the First Age. That would mean the Northmen of
Rhovanion descended from two different languages: the Beorians of Rhovanion like
(I suppose) the Ancient English and the Hadorians of Rhovanion like (I suppose)
the Goths or Norse. JRRT says that one group (the Beorians, I suppose) travelled
south, around the southern eaves of the Greenwood, and then went north, up the
Anduin Vales (to, I suppose become the ancestors of the Beornings). The
Hadorians went north, to the northern eaves of the Greenwood.

However, in Unfinished Tales, JRRT clearly models the Third Age expansion of the
Northmen out of northeastern Mirkwood toward the south, on the real-world
expansion of the Proto-Germanic peoples out of Scandinavia. This would make all
of the Northmen of Rhovanion in the early *Third Age*, equivalent to
Proto-Germanics. I try to resolve this by making the Beorians at that time
"Pre-Ingvaeonic" Proto-Germanics (or "Pre-West Germanic" Proto-Germanics, if the
Woodmen of Western Mirkwood are included in the southerly route) and the
Hadorians at that time "Pre-Northeast" Proto-Germanics.

The situation in Eriador is similar. There are supposed to be two different
"Germanic" peoples--Beorians and Hadorians--even in First Age Eriador.

In regard to another language family: I'm not clear yet on when the Dunlendings
were in Calenardhon. It might become clearer once I start to periodize the
Halethic family.

Anyway, it's an attempt. It can definitely be further refined. Any suggestions
for improvement are welcome.

Travis

With the addition of the letter to Titus, the Neo-Quenya New Testament
is now 52 % complete:

http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/nqnt.htm

Also, you will be thrilled to learn that "Romans" is very well underway.
After all, we have all spent long years of bitter yearning, wondering
when we will finally get to read Paul's letter to the Romans in Neo-Quenya.

My conventions are slowly evolving, so in the end I shall have to go
over the whole thing and scrub it for consistency in terms of grammar
and vocabulary issues. I daresay "my" Quenya is more stable than
Tolkien's, though.

- HKF

As a Tolkien fan, an armchair linguist, and a minister, I cannot express
how happy I am about this.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Delightful news indeed; congratulations!

At my "Accents and Dialects" page, I wrote a new article about the evidence
for "Yorkshire English in the north of the Eastfarthing". It's near the
bottom of this page:

https://sites.google.com/site/endorenya/accents-and-dialects

Any suggestions for improvement are welcome.

Also, does anyone know if there's some obscure academic source from
Tolkien's time which suggests that the Old English month names were
different in the various dialects of OE, such as Old Northumbrian, Old
Mercian, and Old West Saxon? I'm trying to find a reason for JRRT saying
that some of the month names were different in Bree-speech and
Eastfarthing-speech.

Travis


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi, Travis,

Regarding the toponym Scary, Tom Shippey offers a totally different theory. He
suggests (pace Tolkien) the etymology “might be Old English scearu,
pronounced share-oo, ‘a boundary,’ which being in the north of the Shire
has undergone the common Northern English sh > sk phonetic
change (as in Skipton, Scarborough), and marks the Shire’s northern boundary,
perhaps even, punningly, the ‘Shire-share.’� (Fisher, ed., Tolkien and the
Study of His Sources: Critical Essays [McFarland, 2011], p. 11). In spite of
Tolkien's comment in the "Guide to Names", which you quoted, I think this is a
theory worth considering. Old English scearu "land separated or appointed; a
division or share of land" < Primitive Germanic *skar�, with cognates in Old
High German scara, Old Frisian skere, and Old Norse skera and probably skör.

Best,
Jason



>________________________________
> From: Travis Henry <traversetravis@...>
>To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Monday, March 4, 2013 10:57 AM
>Subject: [elfling] Yorkshire English in the Hills of Scary (and OE dialectical
month names)
>
>
> 
>At my "Accents and Dialects" page, I wrote a new article about the evidence
>for "Yorkshire English in the north of the Eastfarthing". It's near the
>bottom of this page:
>
>https://sites.google.com/site/endorenya/accents-and-dialects
>
>Any suggestions for improvement are welcome.
>
>Also, does anyone know if there's some obscure academic source from
>Tolkien's time which suggests that the Old English month names were
>different in the various dialects of OE, such as Old Northumbrian, Old
>Mercian, and Old West Saxon? I'm trying to find a reason for JRRT saying
>that some of the month names were different in Bree-speech and
>Eastfarthing-speech.
>
>Travis
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I've written a new article about the name Took.

https://sites.google.com/site/endorenya/took

In short: the name "Took" appears to be a "slender jest" on Tolkien's own
name.

Travis


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Now that Klingon has been breached and brought into the music/video world, what
next?

Quenya and Evanescence and like lilting musicians?

Klingo is Black Speech or Uruk?

Mike



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Travis Henry <traversetravis@...> wrote:
>
> I've written a new article about the name Took.
>
> https://sites.google.com/site/endorenya/took
>
> In short: the name "Took" appears to be a "slender jest" on Tolkien's own
> name.
>
> Travis

My understanding is that -- in the real world -- the surname "Took(e)" is of
Scandinavian origin, presumably brought to England by Danish settlers. Its
origin is supposed to be Old Norse tooki (tóki) "simpleton" -- hence, "Fool of
a Took!"

Which, to my way of thinking, rather strengthens your conjecture than weakens
it.

Thanks, I added that etymology to the article.

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "iiipitaka" <dsalo@...> wrote:

> My understanding is that -- in the real world -- the surname "Took(e)" is of
Scandinavian origin, presumably brought to England by Danish settlers. Its
origin is supposed to be Old Norse tooki (tóki) "simpleton" -- hence, "Fool of
a Took!"
>
> Which, to my way of thinking, rather strengthens your conjecture than weakens
it.
>

Hello everyone! I have been in this group for several years now, and it's until
this moment that I write something.

I have always noticed that some Quenya words exist in other languages, having or
not the same meaning, so I took Helge's Quenya-English wordlist (you are the
man, Helge!!), and made a list of coincidences (or not coincidences, in some
cases), so naybe some of you are interested in reading. 


http://tolkien-inspiration.blogspot.com/2013/03/quenya-words-existing-in-other-l\
anguages.html


Cheers!

César

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks for this Jason.

Regardless of whether "Scary" means only what JRRT says it does, or if it's a
double entendre, Tom's implication that there is a Northern English dialect in
the north of the Shire is something that my research agrees with.

Travis

I see that the Nicene Creed has previously been translated into Quenya, so I
have taken a shot at doing the same for the Apostles' Creed. What do you think?
And for anyone wondering, my starting text was from the Episcopal Book of Common
Prayer.

Istanyë Eru, Illúvatar Antaura,
i ontaro menelo ar cemeno.
Istanyë Yésus Hristo, Sonya eressë Yondo, Herúlva.
	 Tullë túrenen Airefeo
		 ar etnoná Marí Vénëa.
	 Nés nwalyaina nu Pontius Pilátus,
		 Tarwestaina, firnë, panyaina noirissë.
	 Lelyanes nún i vanwanna.
	 I nelya auressë enortanes.
	 Rostanes mir menel,
		 ar ná hamna sé forma Illuvataro.
	 Entuluvas namien i cuina ar i firin.
Istanyë i Airefëa,
i aire Palurin corda,
i yomenië nerion airi,
i avatyaralë lucassion,
i ortalë i hroan,
ar cuile oia. Násië.



I believe in God, the Father almighty,
     creator of heaven and earth;
I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
     He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit
         and born of the Virgin Mary.
     He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
         was crucified, died, and was buried.
     He descended to the dead.
     On the third day he rose again.
     He ascended into heaven,
         and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
     He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
     the holy catholic Church,
     the communion of saints,
     the forgiveness of sins
     the resurrection of the body,
     and the life everlasting. Amen.

Hello,


p> Istanye Eru, Illuvatar Antaura,

Ista-   means   "to  know".  For  "believe"  we  have sav-. So I'd say
"Savinye
Eru Iluvatar".

p> Istanye Yesus Hristo, Sonya eresse Yondo, Herulva.
"Sonya"  is  very  godd,  on  my  opinion.  I  know Helge would say we
shouldn't use "so — se — sa" as in Tolkien's latest works we find only
"se — sa" (and "se" for both genders), all my heart is resisting this.
I  think  this "-s" for all genders is somewhat English-inspired, so I
would  stick  with  "-ro/-re/-s"  for verbs and with "so — se — sa" as
stand-alone pronouns.
"Eresse" is an interesting word. It used to mean "alone/only", but now
we  have  more  exact meaning: "solitude/loneliness". So the adjective
for  "alone"  is  "eressea"  but  this is not the case for it. Here we
should use "erea", which means "single, only".
And one question: why do you have an u in "herulva"?

p>         Tulle turenen Airefeo
p>                 ar etnona Mari Venea.
                Ar nona et Mario Wende, i'd say.

p>                 ar na hamna se forma Illuvataro.
Hm. What does the "se" mean here?

p>         Entuluvas namien i cuina ar i firin.
"i  cuina  ar i firin" - as general? I'd say "i cuine ar i firini", in
plural.

p> i yomenie nerion airi,
"of saint men"? I don't know the context, so maybe.

p> ar cuile oia. Nasie.
I would use "oira" here, since "oia" is somewhat doubtful.



--
Tenna rato,
Menelion.

Where do you get 'Palurin corda'?


________________________________
  From: plasmasphere713 <samuel.d.meyer@...>
To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, March 9, 2013 9:57 PM
Subject: [elfling] Apostles' Creed in Quenya


 
I see that the Nicene Creed has previously been translated into Quenya, so I
have taken a shot at doing the same for the Apostles' Creed. What do you think?
And for anyone wondering, my starting text was from the Episcopal Book of Common
Prayer.

Istanyë Eru, Illúvatar Antaura,
i ontaro menelo ar cemeno.
Istanyë Yésus Hristo, Sonya eressë Yondo, Herúlva.
Tullë túrenen Airefeo
ar etnoná Marí Vénëa.
Nés nwalyaina nu Pontius Pilátus,
Tarwestaina, firnë, panyaina noirissë.
Lelyanes nún i vanwanna.
I nelya auressë enortanes.
Rostanes mir menel,
ar ná hamna sé forma Illuvataro.
Entuluvas namien i cuina ar i firin.
Istanyë i Airefëa,
i aire Palurin corda,
i yomenië nerion airi,
i avatyaralë lucassion,
i ortalë i hroan,
ar cuile oia. Násië.

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth;
I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit
and born of the Virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again.
He ascended into heaven,
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Moina Ainon!
Centa Quenyanen urda, ananta ricuvanyes.

Hlarienen sinë vinyar, órenya quanta alassëo. Acáriel túra
molie. Inyë illumë henta querielyar i Vinya Véreva (Vin-)
Quenyanna. Anwavë manyalten, antienen handë pa yuhtië
quettaiva ar tengwesteva. Ananta, samin rimbë maquettali.
Uan polë tecë ilqua mi tecet er. Yestuvan maquetta
minillo:

— Tennassë Heveryain yuhtal quetta "nyéni". Sa tëa laman
inya. Mal i Helenya quentelessë ńa técina _tragos_ — nás
laman hanwa. Yando mí Nelya Parma Mósëo hentalmë pa yacië
laman hanwa ve urtaina yanca. Ma cé yuhtië vinya quettava
*nyénu ná alima?

Ve anwa sermolya,
Isaac Penziev (Yitzik)

P.S. Ecë nin návë nildolya mi Facebook?

2013/3/2 Helge K. Fauskanger <helge.fauskanger@...>

> **
>
>
> With the addition of the letter to Titus, the Neo-Quenya New Testament
> is now 52 % complete:
>
> http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/nqnt.htm
>
> Also, you will be thrilled to learn that "Romans" is very well underway.
> After all, we have all spent long years of bitter yearning, wondering
> when we will finally get to read Paul's letter to the Romans in Neo-Quenya.
>
> My conventions are slowly evolving, so in the end I shall have to go
> over the whole thing and scrub it for consistency in terms of grammar
> and vocabulary issues. I daresay "my" Quenya is more stable than
> Tolkien's, though.
>
> - HKF
>
>


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