I've been studying Sindarin for about six months now and with my
knowledge, I wrote this poem:
A Eru, mo le aen?
Hí le hirathon,
Aphadathon le nan ab 'wanath,
Rim lui nauthon awarthannel nin.

A Eru, mo le aen?
A aran o Yísra-el
annathal hîdh anim,
Ai Eru telithal lintui?

A Eru, mo le aen?
Tellil edain
a chared edain Eruchîn,
le ú-awarthant nin!

O Eru, where are you?
Now I will find you.
I will follow you even to the death.
Nunerous times I think You have forsaken me.

O Eru, where are you?
O king of Israel
Will you give peace to me?
Ah Eru will you come swiftly?

O Eru, where are you?
You came to man
To make men your children.
You have not forsaken me!

Any suggestions on how to make it better?

Hannon le,
Eruantalon

Years ago, I wrote a little text (Silmesse = In Starlight) that was an
attempt to produce a rhymed Quenya poem. Now Carvin Knowles has put
music to it, and -- believe it or not -- there is even a Music Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0-K_EcCdEs&feature=youtu.be

Not extremely fancy, but pretty atmospheric, I should say. I helped with
the Tengwar as well.

Please leave some comments on YouTube if you like it.

- HKF

I've been away from the languages for a while, but here's what I can think of.
Others may point out things I missed, or contest my suggestions:

I'm curious what meaning you intend with _aen_, given that several theories have
been produced for it (like Q _nai_, or a pronoun 'they,' or a passive marker),
none of which seem appropriate here. Is it a reconstruction of a form from 'to
be'? I admit I'm a bit rusty.

I would expect _rim_ to follow _lui_, given the usual order in Sindarin AFAIK.
If I recall correctly, it might be more appropriate to have _i_ for "that"
between the two verbs; I cannot recall examples that would support or reject
this idea - can anyone else?

Regarding _awarthannel_, in PE17:132 we find -dh as the formal 2nd sg.,
suggesting _awarthannedh_; nonetheless, we find _-el_ as a possessive suffix on
p. 46, so _awarthannel_ is likely fine in that concept. The untranslated
_echanthel_ may also support that.

I would remove _o_ between _aran_ and _Yísra-el_, as it has the impression of
"king from Israel" (unless that's your intention), and we find _aran Gondor_ in
the King's Letter.

With regard to the unattested _lintui_, it would make sense, but since we
already have _lim_ "swift", which Tolkien uses against Q _linta_ in PE17:147,
rather than *_lintui_.

_Tellil_: nasal infixion / -nê is unattested for S verbs ending in L, whereas we
find _aval-_ for _bal-_ (PE17:131), leading me to believe _*udulel_ would be
more appropriate, alongside other pa.t. formations like _agor_, _onur_,
_adhag/adhanc_ (ibid.), etc.

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, John Doe  wrote:
>
> I've been studying Sindarin for about six months now and with my
> knowledge, I wrote this poem:
> A Eru, mo le aen?
> Hí le hirathon,
> Aphadathon le nan ab 'wanath,
> Rim lui nauthon awarthannel nin.
>
> A Eru, mo le aen?
> A aran o Yísra-el
> annathal hîdh anim,
> Ai Eru telithal lintui?
>
> A Eru, mo le aen?
> Tellil edain
> a chared edain Eruchîn,
> le ú-awarthant nin!
>
> O Eru, where are you?
> Now I will find you.
> I will follow you even to the death.
> Nunerous times I think You have forsaken me.
>
> O Eru, where are you?
> O king of Israel
> Will you give peace to me?
> Ah Eru will you come swiftly?
>
> O Eru, where are you?
> You came to man
> To make men your children.
> You have not forsaken me!
>
> Any suggestions on how to make it better?

Hello! I'm totally a novice concerning the language of Tolkien (and of course,
I'm really sorry for my english, I'm french...)

Is it possible to translate this sentence in Quenya ?

"In quietness and trust will be your strength."

Or in Sindarin if possible, but it seems much more complicated... Nothing of it
I found does not seem to be just...

Thank you in advance for your help !

Have a nice night !
Arwëa

There was a question about the Sindarin word for "read".

We don't seem to have an attested verb. The cognate of Quenya _henta-_
would be either *_henna-_, *_henha-_ or *_hentha-_, depending on which
version of the diachronic phonology you want to use. I would prefer
*_henna-_.

We do have some late examples where Tolkien wants earlier _nt_ to yield
Sindarin _nh_ (unvoiced N), so that the cognate of Quenya _anta-_ "give"
becomes _anha-_ (PE17:93). But this contradicts a statement in Appendix
E to the effect that the sound _nh_ was exceedingly rare in the
languages written in Tengwar (so that the letter theoretically
representing _nh_ was actually used for other sounds). Tolkien had
apparently forgotten this when he tried to revise the phonology in a way
that would make _nh_ a fairly common sound in Sindarin.

It's apparently a "Problem of Ros": the proposed revision is invalid
because it contradicts statements appearing in already-published material.

- HKF

Rather for refreshing my learning than offering a valid translation,
here's my try:

nauvë mí quildë ar estel poldorelyë

Eagerly expecting the knowledgeable ones to correct it.

Regards

"In quietness and trust will be your strength."

Assuming this is a plural "you", perhaps:

_Quildesse ar estelde nauvar túrelda_.

Or: _Mi quilde ar estel nauvar túrelda._

_Quilde_ seems to be the only word for "silence" that we have, but it
comes from early Qenya. _Estel_ is more commonly translated "hope", but
"trust" is also one of the glosses Tolkien used.

One unresolved problem: Should the verb be dual (ending -t) whenever
there are two subjects? If so, read _nauvat_. We know that a dual verb
is used when the numeral "two" is present (_elen atta siluvat_, two
stars will shine), and it seems fair to assume that a dual noun will
trigger a dual verb (*_Aldu sílat_, the Two Trees are shining), but what
happens when there are two subjects only casually associated?

We can say "in silence and trust you will have your strength" (mi quilde
ar estel samuvalde túrelda) and avoid the problem.

- HKF

On 2013-02-16, Helge K. Fauskanger <helge.fauskanger@...> wrote:
> "In quietness and trust will be your strength."
....
> _Quildesse ar estelde nauvar túrelda_.
> Or: _Mi quilde ar estel nauvar túrelda._
....
> One unresolved problem: Should the verb be dual (ending -t) whenever
> there are two subjects? If so, read _nauvat_. We know that a dual verb

Since the subject is singular (túrelda), this problem does not arise;-)

--
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.

Thank you very much ! The sentence "mi quilde ar estel samuvalde túrelda" seems
to be the most just ? But that remains so much complicated...

Given the Biblical context, I guess we can safely assume the "you" is plural.

However, I tend to think you're a bit too literal when you suggest that we
should translate "in quietness and trust" by the preposition _mi_. I'd rather
use instrumental here, unless you have in mind examples where Tolkien used this
preposition in the same way.

Beside, I would definitely avoid _quildë_ if possible, both because its validity
in Quenya can be questioned and because I think "silence" is quite far from the
meaning intended in Isaiah 30:15. I'd rather use _sívë_, glossed "peace" in a
1969 note, and derived from the root SIB "rest, quiet" (VT44, p. 35).

I don't think the dual ending should be questioned either: both the LR sentence
_andavë laituvalmet_ and the change _veryanweldo_ -> _veryanwesto_ (VT49, p. 45)
suggest groupings of two things receive a dual ending, even without a numeral.

So, what about: _sívenen ar estelden* nauvat túrelda_?

*According to PE19, p. 48, _*l-n_ always becomes _ld_ in Quenya.

Regards,
Damien

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@...>
wrote:
>
>
> "In quietness and trust will be your strength."
>
> Assuming this is a plural "you", perhaps:
>
> _Quildesse ar estelde nauvar túrelda_.
>
> Or: _Mi quilde ar estel nauvar túrelda._
>
> _Quilde_ seems to be the only word for "silence" that we have, but it
> comes from early Qenya. _Estel_ is more commonly translated "hope", but
> "trust" is also one of the glosses Tolkien used.
>
> One unresolved problem: Should the verb be dual (ending -t) whenever
> there are two subjects? If so, read _nauvat_. We know that a dual verb
> is used when the numeral "two" is present (_elen atta siluvat_, two
> stars will shine), and it seems fair to assume that a dual noun will
> trigger a dual verb (*_Aldu sílat_, the Two Trees are shining), but what
> happens when there are two subjects only casually associated?
>
> We can say "in silence and trust you will have your strength" (mi quilde
> ar estel samuvalde túrelda) and avoid the problem.
>
> - HKF
>

On 2013-02-17, Damien <d.bador@...> wrote:
> I don't think the dual ending should be questioned either: both the LR
sentence _andavë laituvalmet_ and the change _veryanweldo_ -> _veryanwesto_
(VT49, p. 45) suggest groupings of two things receive a dual ending, even
without a numeral.
>
> So, what about: _sívenen ar estelden* nauvat túrelda_?

Does nobody know any grammar any more?
The sentence is "Your strength is in/by X and Y.", and changing to a more
poetic word order does not change the syntactic relations in either
English or Quenya.
The subject is túrelda, nauva is the copular verb, and sívenen ar estelden
(or mi quilde ar estel) is the predicate.

But if there were a "dual" subject (if you formed the sentence rather as
"Quietness and trust will be your strength"), then I would still feel
uneasy about the dual. In "andave laitulmet", the two are Frodo and
Sam, who form a very tightly bound natural pair. In "veryanwesto", the
two are husband and wife, also a tightly bound natural pair.

Languages differ about how they treat the dual. In Greek (in so far as
we know about Greek before the dual was obsolete), the dual was used
only for natural pairs, so that sentence would use the plural. In
Sanskrit, the sentence would use the dual, as the plural positively
requires three or more entities.

My personal view is that Quenya was more likely like Greek than like
Sanskrit, but unless we have evidence, we can't know.

--
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.

What Julian says makes sense to me.

I would add that the -t is laituvalmet might not, strictly speaking, be a
dual but could instead be the 3rd person objective suffix used for both
duals and plurals (PE17/110), the singular counterpart being -s.

On Feb 17, 2013, at 11:43 AM, Julian Bradfield <jcb+elfling@...>
wrote:



On 2013-02-17, Damien d.bador@...> wrote:
> I don't think the dual ending should be questioned either: both the LR
sentence _andavë laituvalmet_ and the change _veryanweldo_ -> _veryanwesto_
(VT49, p. 45) suggest groupings of two things receive a dual ending, even
without a numeral.
>
> So, what about: _sívenen ar estelden* nauvat túrelda_?

Does nobody know any grammar any more?
The sentence is "Your strength is in/by X and Y.", and changing to a more
poetic word order does not change the syntactic relations in either
English or Quenya.
The subject is túrelda, nauva is the copular verb, and sívenen ar estelden
(or mi quilde ar estel) is the predicate.

But if there were a "dual" subject (if you formed the sentence rather as
"Quietness and trust will be your strength"), then I would still feel
uneasy about the dual. In "andave laitulmet", the two are Frodo and
Sam, who form a very tightly bound natural pair. In "veryanwesto", the
two are husband and wife, also a tightly bound natural pair.

Languages differ about how they treat the dual. In Greek (in so far as
we know about Greek before the dual was obsolete), the dual was used
only for natural pairs, so that sentence would use the plural. In
Sanskrit, the sentence would use the dual, as the plural positively
requires three or more entities.

My personal view is that Quenya was more likely like Greek than like
Sanskrit, but unless we have evidence, we can't know.

--
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Over the years and especially recently, I've had a lot of questions asked me
(and probably more have been raised without asking me) about my language work on
the films of The Lord of the Rings, and, more recently, of The Hobbit: An
Unexpected Journey.

To answer all these questions individually would involve a great deal of
repetition, and the answers would remain unavailable to other people who may
have similar questions. In order to address them in a (hopefully) orderly way,
and to make the answers available to anyone who wants to search for them, I've
started a blog, called "Midgardsmal," located at the following URL:

midgardsmal.com.

If you have a Twitter account, you can check to see if there is a new blog post
by following this account:

twitter.com/Midgardsmal

The purpose of the Midgardsmal blog is to discuss questions related to the
versions of Tolkien's languages used in the films, and particularly to the
languages which were in large part newly invented for the films: Khuzdul (or
"Neo-Khuzdul"), Black Speech, and various Orkish dialects.

Quite a lot of material was invented in these languages -- more than appears in
the films -- and it will take a while to cover all the questions that have been
asked and might be asked. So I expect this blog to be an ongoing project for
several years, and possibly indefinitely -- I may continue inventing and
extending these languages as time goes on.

The blog is a work in progress, and I expect that it will change as I continue
to work through it. At the moment I see it as being partly narrative, partly
analysis, because the way these languages look now is rooted in the story of how
they came to be, though that is fairly straightforward. But I will be discussing
some specifics of how the languages are constructed, and -- insofar as I can
remember it -- some information about the sources of inspiration and the process
of invention.

I welcome comments and questions on and in the blog, and if I see a pattern of
interest in one sort of information or another, I may be able to give priority
to discussing those questions. The comments policy is posted on the blog.

I hope this blog will be a useful tool for those who are interested in the
languages of the film, and perhaps for those who are interested in constructed
languages in general.

David Salo

"In quietness and trust will be your strength."

I suggested:

_Quildesse ar estelde nauvar túrelda_.


I went on to worry about whether a sentence with two subjects should
have a dual verb. My bad: the whole question is of course irrelevant here.

The subject is "your strength", singular, NOT "quietness and trust"!  So
the verb should be _nauva_, singular.

Thinking too much and too little at the same time ... not a good idea!

- HKF


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Instead of _túre_ which is more like 'control, mastery', one could consider
_melehte_ glossed as 'might, power' (inherent) (PE17:115); it might fit the bill
better.

Yours,

Atwe

Languages of Middle-Earth community on G+:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities/105957840800720660334



________________________________
  From: Julian Bradfield <jcb+elfling@...>
To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 9:45 PM
Subject: Re: [elfling] Re: Need for help for a translation

On 2013-02-16, Helge K. Fauskanger <helge.fauskanger@...> wrote:
> "In quietness and trust will be your strength."
....
> _Quildesse ar estelde nauvar túrelda_.
> Or: _Mi quilde ar estel nauvar túrelda._
....
> One unresolved problem: Should the verb be dual (ending -t) whenever
> there are two subjects? If so, read _nauvat_. We know that a dual verb

Since the subject is singular (túrelda), this problem does not arise;-)

--
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.



------------------------------------

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello,

c> Írë i túrë melmëo (melmo)

It's  suggested  to  prepend  the  noun in genitive to the subject, so
"melmeo  túre" is better here. And as someone has already pointed out,
"melehte"  would  be  better than "túre".

c> lahtuvas i melmë an túrë (túrën),

I'm  not sure about the "lahta-" usage but yes, it seems the best word
so  far.  As  for  "love  for  power",  I'd  use  "melme  melehten" or
"melmemelehte" (but that sounds really awful to my Elvish ear :-)).

c> tá (i) irmin

The  word "irmin" is marked as "hardly valid" in Helge's dictionary. I
wouldn't  use  something  Helge  claims  to be invalid or even "hardly
valid"  if  there's  no  particular reasons to do so (for instance, my
heart  is all against using "-s" for both genders in third person). So
prefer  using  "ambar" or "mar" (or, in your case, I'd use even "Arda"
as the world in its wholeness).

                              c> istuvantë (istuvaltë) (istuvas) i rainë.

Simply "istuva". You have a subject (Arda, as I proposed). So you have
not to place an ending. If you say "istuvas", that means "know-will-it"
(ist-uva-s),  so  the  "it"  is  superfluous  here  -  you have "Arda"
already.
Hope this helps)

--
Tenna rato,
Menelion.

Thank you, Helge. It's been a while since I last read any of my languages
materials, and I wasn't at all sure how to go about potential reconstructions.
I've been working in a library for a couple of years, and I wanted to find words
connected to books, reading and readers.

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@...>
wrote:
>
> There was a question about the Sindarin word for "read".
>
> We don't seem to have an attested verb. The cognate of Quenya _henta-_ would
be either *_henna-_, *_henha-_ or *_hentha-_, depending on which version of the
diachronic phonology you want to use. I would prefer *_henna-_.
>
> We do have some late examples where Tolkien wants earlier _nt_ to yield
Sindarin _nh_ (unvoiced N), so that the cognate of Quenya _anta-_ "give" becomes
_anha-_ (PE17:93). But this contradicts a statement in Appendix E to the effect
that the sound _nh_ was exceedingly rare in the languages written in Tengwar (so
that the letter theoretically representing _nh_ was actually used for other
sounds). Tolkien had apparently forgotten this when he tried to revise the
phonology in a way that would make _nh_ a fairly common sound in Sindarin.
>
It's apparently a "Problem of Ros": the proposed revision is invalid because it
contradicts statements appearing in already-published material.
>
> - HKF
>

Nice!

<mailto:cdimitra@...?subject=Re%3A%20your%20help%20is%20kindly%20requested\
%21>


cdmitra wanted to translate:

   "When the power of love overcomes the love for power, then the world
shall know peace"

I'd say: _Íre melmeo túre lahta melme túreva, ambar istuva raine._

Or we can have an explicit future tense: _lantuva_.

You write "melme an túre" for "love for power", but this is an
Anglicism, I think. The Tolkien example _Nurtale Valinóreva_ "Hiding of
Valinor" indicates that the -va case is used for "object genitive"
following an abstract verb: Valinor is what is hidden by the "hiding".
Similarly, power is what is loved by the "love" in the phrase _melme
túreva_.

- HKF
<mailto:cdimitra@...?subject=Re%3A%20your%20help%20is%20kindly%20requested\
%21>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello and congratulations for your wonderful group!!

I am new in the field so I would appreciate some help with a translation
I have been doing. The original phrase is: “When the power of
love overcomes the love for power, then the world shall know
peace.�

   I tried to translate it in Quenya and here are the results of my
effort:


Írë i túrë melmëo (melmo) lahtuvas i melmë an
túrë (túrën), tá (i) irmin istuvantë
(istuvaltë) (istuvas) i rainë. The words in the parenthesis are
the points where I am not sure.


I will welcome any comments. It is very important to me if I could get
it right!  Thank you





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Helge,


HKF> Similarly, power is what is loved by the "love" in the phrase _melme
HKF> túreva_.

       Interesting.  So  could  you  point  out  the difference between
genitive, possessive and dative in those phrases, please?
                                                   Thank you!

--
Menelion.

Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:48 am (PST) . Posted by:


       "TF" percival64
      
<mailto:percival64@...?subject=Re%3A%20Need%20for%20help%20for%20a%20trans\
lation>





  > Instead of _túre_ which is more like 'control, mastery' one could
consider _melehte_ glossed as 'might, power' (inherent) (PE17:115); it
might fit the bill better.

Yes, I agree. I wasn't quite happy with the word _túre_ (which I
generally use to mean "power") as a translation of "strength".

So perhaps: _Mi quilde ar estel nauva melehtelda._

- HKF


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Menelion wrote:

  > Interesting. So could you point out the difference between genitive,
possessive and dative in those phrases, please? Thank you!

I don't think we have any examples of dative following an abstract noun.

The attested examples are:

1. -o case ("genitive") in connection with an abstract verbal noun
indicates "subject genitive":

Tolkien example: _Oiencarme Eruo_, "God's perpectual production"
(oiencarme, apparently "ever-re-making"). Eru is DOING the "perpetual
production", he is not the one "produced". (MR:471).

2. -va case in connection with an abstract verbal noun indicates "object
genitive"

Tolkien example: _Nurtale Valinóreva_, "hiding of Valinor" (Valinor is
what is hidden)

3. Dative would presumably indicate the "beneficiary" of the verbal
action denoted by the verbal noun.

No Tolkien example; we could imagine something like *_antie penyain_
"giving to poor ones".

We could have all three together in a phrase like *_i arano antie
massava penyain_ "the king's giving (of) bread to poor ones".

- HKF

So, what's the best translation ?

"Mi quilde ar estel nauva melehtelda" ?

No "túrelda" ? Is "Sívenen ar estelden nauva túrelda." right ?

I have many difficulties to know what's right, what's wrong...

Rebecca Joanne Ashling
If anyone wants to write a Buffy/LotR crossover then here is the perfect
Sindarin (Grey Elvish) name for Buffy:

Nadhriel

nan = valley
riel = maiden

"valley girl"
----------
So what would her full title be?



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

to Menelion and Helge,

A million times thanks guys!!! You have given me a lot more than I expected to
get from this post! You really know many things about Tolkien¢s languages!

Sorry but I will stick to “irmin”, because I really liked that word
and I think it is the most accurate for “all people” or
“humankind”. When I say “the world shall know peace” I
don¢t mean the soil or the mountains. It does not matter if it is valid today,
Tolkien used it at least one time and that is enough for me.

That point “love for power” leally made me sweat! So what should I
write: lahta melme túreva
Lahtuva melme tureva
Or lantuva melme tureva?

again many thanks!!!

Hello Elfling members,

I wrote a Periodization of the Northman languages of Rhovanion here:

https://sites.google.com/site/endorenya/language-periodizations

I've started to fill in the other language families too, but they aren't dated
yet.

Note: In the case of the Northman language, the real-world "inspirations" (Old
English, Old Norse, and so forth) would be used for "fictively translating" the
Northman languages. For the other language families, these "inspirations" are
handles for imagining what those actual languages and their cultures might be
like.

Actually laying it out helps me make sense of it all. And it reveals where
things still don't quite fit together.

One difficulty is that JRRT said that the Beorian and Hadorian languages already
diverged at the Sea of Rhun in the First Age. That would mean the Northmen of
Rhovanion descended from two different languages: the Beorians of Rhovanion like
(I suppose) the Ancient English and the Hadorians of Rhovanion like (I suppose)
the Goths or Norse. JRRT says that one group (the Beorians, I suppose) travelled
south, around the southern eaves of the Greenwood, and then went north, up the
Anduin Vales (to, I suppose become the ancestors of the Beornings). The
Hadorians went north, to the northern eaves of the Greenwood.

However, in Unfinished Tales, JRRT clearly models the Third Age expansion of the
Northmen out of northeastern Mirkwood toward the south, on the real-world
expansion of the Proto-Germanic peoples out of Scandinavia. This would make all
of the Northmen of Rhovanion in the early *Third Age*, equivalent to
Proto-Germanics. I try to resolve this by making the Beorians at that time
"Pre-Ingvaeonic" Proto-Germanics (or "Pre-West Germanic" Proto-Germanics, if the
Woodmen of Western Mirkwood are included in the southerly route) and the
Hadorians at that time "Pre-Northeast" Proto-Germanics.

The situation in Eriador is similar. There are supposed to be two different
"Germanic" peoples--Beorians and Hadorians--even in First Age Eriador.

In regard to another language family: I'm not clear yet on when the Dunlendings
were in Calenardhon. It might become clearer once I start to periodize the
Halethic family.

Anyway, it's an attempt. It can definitely be further refined. Any suggestions
for improvement are welcome.

Travis

With the addition of the letter to Titus, the Neo-Quenya New Testament
is now 52 % complete:

http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/nqnt.htm

Also, you will be thrilled to learn that "Romans" is very well underway.
After all, we have all spent long years of bitter yearning, wondering
when we will finally get to read Paul's letter to the Romans in Neo-Quenya.

My conventions are slowly evolving, so in the end I shall have to go
over the whole thing and scrub it for consistency in terms of grammar
and vocabulary issues. I daresay "my" Quenya is more stable than
Tolkien's, though.

- HKF

As a Tolkien fan, an armchair linguist, and a minister, I cannot express
how happy I am about this.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Delightful news indeed; congratulations!