Accoring to the "Gondor mode" (i.e. the one used in DTS 49), <ungwe> is used for
/g/. To represent /ng/, a nasal bar has to be added.

/Måns


--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Bob" <rfh48@...> wrote:
>
> Thank you Mans. I was confusing the tengwar usages between the Beleriand and
Gondor modes. However, I still don't understand why a nasal bar would be used
with <ungwe>. Wouldn't <i-tehta> <ungwe> <nasal bar> read as "inng-" rather than
" ing-" ? I thought the n from "in" was joining to the g in "gelaidh".
> Bob
>
>
> --- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, MÃ¥ns <at@> wrote:
> >
> > Judging by the third copy of the King's Letter, where _i Varanduiniant_ has
an i-tehta above <ampa> for _i V..._, the definite article might in such cases
be regarded as a component of the following word. Thus, the inital part of
_i-ngelaidh_ may be written with an i-tehta above <ungwe> with a nasal bar.
> >
> > Yours,
> > MÃ¥ns
> >
> > --- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Bob" <rfh48@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Re my previous message
> > > Sorry, I should have said the Gondorian consonantal mode, not Beleriand. I
was looking at the wrong page of the article. As is probably obvious, I am a
beginner to learning Sindarin.
> > > Bob
> > >
> > > --- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Bob" <rfh48@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hello all
> > > > I have a question regarding writing Sindarin in tengwar in the mode of
Beleriand, that is with the vowels indicated by tehta.  When writing   " in +
galaidh " > i- ngelaidh,  where the g is nasally mutated and the n of the prefix
is transferred to the noun, should this be written beginning with the i tehta
above noldo ? Or should it be i tehta above luva carrier + nasal bar above anga,
or some other form ?
> > > > Bob
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Alla Illi,


for anyone who's interested and has a Google account, I have created a Google
Plus (or Kúkel + as it is known among the Elves of Aman:) community, as another
- perhaps more immediate - way and platform to talk about the languages we all
love. We can even have a go at chatting in Quenya (or any other language if we
dare).

Here's the link: https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities/105957840800720660334

See you online

Tamas Ferencz


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I saw the new Hobbit movie last night (at midnight, having secured a
free ticket as part of my compensation from the cinema for writing
people's names in Tengwar all evening ... who says knowledge of
Tolkien-linguistics isn't practical?)

The conlang element in the movie most prominently consists of lots and
lots of Orkish, which necessarily must be almost completely free
invention. But some Sindarin phrases are also heard, and Cate Blanchett
and Hugo Weaving have achieved a rather nice accent. (Ian McKellen's
"Gandalf" seems to have some problems with pure vowels, though.) It is
positively heartening to hear "Mithrandir" pronounced without the final
syllable being blurred into a lazy "uhr", English-style.

One issue has to do with the accent in "Dol Guldur". In the movie, the
final element is consistenly accented "gulDUR". Funny thing is, that is
how the name has always sounded to my inner ear as well! I was almost
disappointed with myself, for of course it should be "GULdur" according
to the stress rules set out in Appendix E. And yet I somehow
(perversely!) "preferred" the pronunciation with the accent on the final
syllable.

And apparently the movie-makers agree with me -- against Tolkien's
instructions in Appendix E! Any idea why some people somehow find the
pronunciation "gulDUR" more natural? Being one of those people, I know
that _I_  can't point to any rational reason...

- HKF

I'm no expert, but DOL gulDUR sounds more euphonius to my Australian
English ears than DOL GULdur.

On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 9:47 AM, Helge K. Fauskanger <
helge.fauskanger@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> I saw the new Hobbit movie last night (at midnight, having secured a
> free ticket as part of my compensation from the cinema for writing
> people's names in Tengwar all evening ... who says knowledge of
> Tolkien-linguistics isn't practical?)
>
> The conlang element in the movie most prominently consists of lots and
> lots of Orkish, which necessarily must be almost completely free
> invention. But some Sindarin phrases are also heard, and Cate Blanchett
> and Hugo Weaving have achieved a rather nice accent. (Ian McKellen's
> "Gandalf" seems to have some problems with pure vowels, though.) It is
> positively heartening to hear "Mithrandir" pronounced without the final
> syllable being blurred into a lazy "uhr", English-style.
>
> One issue has to do with the accent in "Dol Guldur". In the movie, the
> final element is consistenly accented "gulDUR". Funny thing is, that is
> how the name has always sounded to my inner ear as well! I was almost
> disappointed with myself, for of course it should be "GULdur" according
> to the stress rules set out in Appendix E. And yet I somehow
> (perversely!) "preferred" the pronunciation with the accent on the final
> syllable.
>
> And apparently the movie-makers agree with me -- against Tolkien's
> instructions in Appendix E! Any idea why some people somehow find the
> pronunciation "gulDUR" more natural? Being one of those people, I know
> that _I_ can't point to any rational reason...
>
> - HKF
>
>



--

Have Fun...
Nik


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Helke

I also think that it is natural to accentuate the last syllable at the end of
this frightening name.
may be it is more emotional and dramatic in ears to finish with a long and
strong GulDUUUUUR... like a following shadow ;)

It was a pleasure to heard elvish in Middle Earth again :)

best regards

Serge Mouton - France 


________________________________
  De : Helge K. Fauskanger <helge.fauskanger@...>
À : elfling@yahoogroups.com
Envoyé le : Mercredi 12 décembre 2012 23h47
Objet : [elfling] Dol GULdur or Dol GulDUR?


 
I saw the new Hobbit movie last night (at midnight, having secured a
free ticket as part of my compensation from the cinema for writing
people's names in Tengwar all evening ... who says knowledge of
Tolkien-linguistics isn't practical?)

The conlang element in the movie most prominently consists of lots and
lots of Orkish, which necessarily must be almost completely free
invention. But some Sindarin phrases are also heard, and Cate Blanchett
and Hugo Weaving have achieved a rather nice accent. (Ian McKellen's
"Gandalf" seems to have some problems with pure vowels, though.) It is
positively heartening to hear "Mithrandir" pronounced without the final
syllable being blurred into a lazy "uhr", English-style.

One issue has to do with the accent in "Dol Guldur". In the movie, the
final element is consistenly accented "gulDUR". Funny thing is, that is
how the name has always sounded to my inner ear as well! I was almost
disappointed with myself, for of course it should be "GULdur" according
to the stress rules set out in Appendix E. And yet I somehow
(perversely!) "preferred" the pronunciation with the accent on the final
syllable.

And apparently the movie-makers agree with me -- against Tolkien's
instructions in Appendix E! Any idea why some people somehow find the
pronunciation "gulDUR" more natural? Being one of those people, I know
that _I_  can't point to any rational reason...

- HKF



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> One issue has to do with the accent in "Dol Guldur". In the movie, the
> final element is consistenly accented "gulDUR". Funny thing is, that is
> how the name has always sounded to my inner ear as well! I was almost
> disappointed with myself, for of course it should be "GULdur" according
> to the stress rules set out in Appendix E. And yet I somehow
> (perversely!) "preferred" the pronunciation with the accent on the final
> syllable.
>
> And apparently the movie-makers agree with me -- against Tolkien's
> instructions in Appendix E! Any idea why some people somehow find the
> pronunciation "gulDUR" more natural? Being one of those people, I know
> that _I_  can't point to any rational reason...

I think it's more likely - and merily - a kind of "cinematographic emphasis" in
order to give this name a more gloomy aspect.

DG

Perhaps because Tolkein based the dark tongues (incuding orcish) on the
Semitic languages, including Hebrew. Hebrew has an accent on the final
syllable in a mojority of cases

Just a guess.

--
Often wrong, never in doubt (Ivy Baker Priest, Green Grows the Ivy, 1958)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Helge,


HKF> how the name has always sounded to my inner ear as well! I was almost
HKF> disappointed with myself, for of course it should be "GULdur" according
HKF> to the stress rules set out in Appendix E. And yet I somehow
HKF> (perversely!) "preferred" the pronunciation with the accent on the final
HKF> syllable.

I also do have such a point. For me it's too painful to accent on E in
names  like  earEndil, elEndil. To my inner ear they sound stressed on
the prepenultimate syllable: eArendil, Elendil :-)

--
Tenna rato,
Menelion.

On 2012-12-12, Helge K. Fauskanger <helge.fauskanger@...> wrote:
> instructions in Appendix E! Any idea why some people somehow find the
> pronunciation "gulDUR" more natural? Being one of those people, I know
> that _I_  can't point to any rational reason...

I think there are a number of reasons for English speakers. English is
a largely trochaic language, and doesn't much like putting two, let
alone three, heavy syllables together.
Perhaps more importantly, the nearest English equivalent to /ur/ is
the <oor> sound in moor, poor, etc. This sound only occurs in
monosyllables (or derivatives thereof, e.g. "doorless"), and always
carries the stress. So doing an unstressed /ur/ is a profoundly
un-English thing to do.

I don't know whether there's any similar effect in Norwegian; but most
likely you've assimilated this native intuition for English!

--
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.

If one accepts the premise that every Mannish country in Middle-earth might be
evocative of a specific real-world culture of circa 900 to 1100 A.D., then what
about Dorwinion?

For reference, there's an article about Dorwinion here:
http://lalaith.vpsurf.de/Tolkien/Bladorthin.html

In my earlier investigations, I supposed the Men of Dorwinion to be like
Mordvinians, for a couple reasons:

1) The location of Dorwinion relative to the River Running is similar to the
location of Mordovia relative to the Kama River.
2) The name "Mordvins" is phonaesthetically similar to Dorwinion, and it appears
on a map in Shepherd's Atlas, which is an atlas that I suspect JRR owned or had
access to.
(http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/europe_byzantine_empires.jpg\
).

Recently I've been reconsidering this because:

1) Mordvinians don't seem to have an especial relationship to wine or trade.
2) They are deep inside Russia. And since the "easterlings with axes" are almost
certainly the Middle-earth "Russians", which the Men of the West had never
encountered before the Battle of the Pelennor, it would be unlikely for the
"Mordvinians" to be well-known trading partners, and a former part of the
Kingdom of Gondor.

I'm considering two other options:
1) That Men of Dorwinion are like Vlachs (Romanians)
2) That Men of Dorwinion are like Iberians (Georgians)

Why?
Because both the Vlachs and Georgians grew wine. And they are still
approximately located near the Black Sea like Dorwinion is situated along the
Sea of Rhun. And they were both the furthest extension of the Roman or Byzantine
Empires, in the same way that Dorwinion is supposed to be the furthest extension
of the Kingdom of Gondor.

Right now, I think Georgia fits better than the Vlachs.
Georgia is a real "land of wine" and a "land of youth". The Vlachs didn't have
their own kingdoms until the 1400s. They were a simple shepherd-folk ruled by
various invaders from the steppes. In the late-Third Age, their Middle-earth
equivalents are probably in southern Rhovanion, ruled over by the Balchoth.

In contrast, the Georgians had a distinct kingdom throughout the early middle
ages. And Georgia is reportedly the birthplace of wine, and is still the most
treasured wine in the northern Eurasia.

In the same way that the leader of the Southrons in the Battle of the Pelennor
is a sort of "Middle-earth version" of Saladin, so might the Great King
Bladorthin be equated to the Great King David the Builder, the most beloved of
the Georgian kings, and whose banner became the national flag of Georgia.

And Georgia is a land of youth (gwinion) because the country has been renowned
for its healthy, long-lived populace.

The language of Dorwinion would then be a phonaesthetically Old
Georgian-flavored Hildian language. It might be "fictively represented" as Old
Georgian. Its script would be tengwar, but in the visual style of the Georgia's
first script--the Asomtavruli script.

>Perhaps because Tolkein based the dark tongues (incuding orcish) on the
>Semitic languages, including Hebrew. Hebrew has an accent on the final
>syllable in a mojority of cases
>
>Just a guess.

The problem is that "guldur" is a Sindarin word, not Orkish or Mannish, and
therefore, according to the LotR Appendix, it should be stressed in
gUldur. I am sure that Tolkien was conscious when he fabricated this
word to sound ominous and "ugly" and evokes Orkish or something similar, and it
is maybe the reason why some people like to stress it in this
peculiar way rather than according to Elvish rules of stress.

Now, I am sorry to admit that I belong to the group of people who, like
Helge, usually imagine this name to be "dol guldUr". I don't record if I ever
had the oportunity to pronounce this name in oral dialogue or discussion so I
can't know how I might had pronounced it. I believe that I would
stop for a couple of seconds to allow my mouth decide where to put the
stress.

Indeed, in my inner ear, Adunaic, Khuzdul and Orkish prefer to be stressed on
the final syllable, for reasons perhaps related to his given by Philip Wayne.
Since "guldur" doesn't appear to be Sindarin (although it is), it triggers this
phenomenon.


And here is a second explanation: I have read somewhere that Elvish words
don't stress the last syllable, however this syllable does take a
secondary stress. I am not sure about the source or the mechanics that
allow such a thing, but when I read about the guldUr phenomenon, I
thought it might be an explanation. We can consider "dolguldur" to be a
3-syllabic word, main stress on "dOl". "dOlgUldur" doesn't seem very
pronounceable, therefore if you put emphasis on "dOl", another stress mut fall
on Ur.

A similar example. For reasons explained above, I like to stress the
khuzdul name for the Dwarves as "khazAd". However in Khazad-dum I violate
my own rule and esthetics and rather imagine it as "khAzaddUm". And this
is because "khazAddUm", like "dOlgUldur", would not work that nice.

Hope this helps, at least as food for thought.

Speaking of Orcish - was very impressed with the Orcish Language work in The
Hobbit film. interested to hear how this was constructed and if there will be a
transcript to study for it.  Some words sounded Elvish to me (like word for son)
but need to see many more times to get down.

David Salo if you worked on this bravo! Any info on much appreciated will be
reading all the film companions now that I have seen the movie for the first
(but not last) time.

Best Andy

Sent from the IPAD of Andrew Higgins

Andrew Higgins Head of Development and Membership
Glyndebourne (andrew.higgins@...)
and now a word from our supporters......
http://glyndebourne.com/supporting-glyndebourne

asthiggins@...  asthiggins on Facebook/Twitter
Mobile 07500 827793
And at his blog Wotan's Musings http://wotanselvishmusings.blogspot.com/


On 15 Dec 2012, at 11:13, Palatinus <elfiness@...> wrote:

>
>
> >Perhaps because Tolkein based the dark tongues (incuding orcish) on the
> >Semitic languages, including Hebrew. Hebrew has an accent on the final
> >syllable in a mojority of cases
> >
> >Just a guess.
>
> The problem is that "guldur" is a Sindarin word, not Orkish or Mannish, and
therefore, according to the LotR Appendix, it should be stressed in
> gUldur. I am sure that Tolkien was conscious when he fabricated this
> word to sound ominous and "ugly" and evokes Orkish or something similar, and
it is maybe the reason why some people like to stress it in this
> peculiar way rather than according to Elvish rules of stress.
>
> Now, I am sorry to admit that I belong to the group of people who, like
> Helge, usually imagine this name to be "dol guldUr". I don't record if I ever
> had the oportunity to pronounce this name in oral dialogue or discussion so I
can't know how I might had pronounced it. I believe that I would
> stop for a couple of seconds to allow my mouth decide where to put the
> stress.
>
> Indeed, in my inner ear, Adunaic, Khuzdul and Orkish prefer to be stressed on
> the final syllable, for reasons perhaps related to his given by Philip Wayne.
Since "guldur" doesn't appear to be Sindarin (although it is), it triggers this
phenomenon.
>
> And here is a second explanation: I have read somewhere that Elvish words
> don't stress the last syllable, however this syllable does take a
> secondary stress. I am not sure about the source or the mechanics that
> allow such a thing, but when I read about the guldUr phenomenon, I
> thought it might be an explanation. We can consider "dolguldur" to be a
> 3-syllabic word, main stress on "dOl". "dOlgUldur" doesn't seem very
> pronounceable, therefore if you put emphasis on "dOl", another stress mut fall
on Ur.
>
> A similar example. For reasons explained above, I like to stress the
> khuzdul name for the Dwarves as "khazAd". However in Khazad-dum I violate
> my own rule and esthetics and rather imagine it as "khAzaddUm". And this
> is because "khazAddUm", like "dOlgUldur", would not work that nice.
>
> Hope this helps, at least as food for thought.
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Palatinus wrote:

  > Now, I am sorry to admit that I belong to the group of people who,
like Helge, usually imagine this name to be "dol guldUr".

Yeah, it's our nasty, shameful little secret ... as Tolkien-linguists we
ought to know better ... :)

  >  I don't record if I ever had the oportunity to pronounce this name
in oral dialogue or discussion so I can't know how I might had
pronounced it. I believe that I would stop for a couple of seconds to
allow my mouth decide where to put the stress.

  > Indeed, in my inner ear, Adunaic, Khuzdul and Orkish prefer to be
stressed on the final syllable, for reasons perhaps related to his given
by Philip Wayne.

The spellings á and ú in names like Grishnákh and Lugbúrz do seem to
indicate accent, for according to Appendix E, long vowels are to be
marked with _circumflexes_ in non-Elvish tongues.

Perhaps we could imagine "Dol Guldur" as being originally THREE words,
"Dol Gûl Dûr", "Hill of Magic Black", and then extra emphasis is put on
"black/dark" to yield the pronunciation "Dol GulDUR"? Of course,
Sauron's necromantic magic is as dark as it gets, and this fact deserves
to be, ahem, stressed!

We have the same final element in "Barad-dûr". If it has been written
Baraddûr, we would have to pronounce "BarADDûr", according to Appendix
E. But the hyphen probably hints at something special. One could
pronounce "BAR-ad DÛR", and the only question is which syllable should
have the primary and which one the secondary stress. The pronunciations
heard in the original Jackson trilogy are inconsistent regarding this
name. I haven't watched the first movies for a while, but I think Ian
McKellen first speaks of how Sauron's fortress of "BARaddûr" has been
rebuilt, whereas Elijah Wood later (in Moria) wonders if Gollum could
really have escaped the dungeons of "BaradDÛR". Correct me if I'm wrong.


- HKF

Andrew Higgins wrote:

  > Speaking of Orcish - was very impressed with the Orcish Language work
in The Hobbit film. interested to hear how this was constructed and if
there will be a transcript to study for it. Some words sounded Elvish to
me (like word for son) but need to see many more times to get down.

I noted that the word for Dwarf was something like "kazd" or "kast".
This would of course be a corruption of Khazâd (like "tark" for
_tarkil_, to quote a Tolkienian example).

I should very much like to have a transcription of Elrond's and
Galadriel's Sindarin utterances. The actors delivered them really well,
in a fluent manner, as if they were indeed speaking a language natural
to them -- and not, as must actually be the case, trying to get their
lips around some weird syllables they don't really understand.

I wonder if the actors were provided with an interlinear rendering of
sorts? To make the intonation natural, they should probably be able to
"feel" the meaning of the individual words as they pronounce them. (Then
we would avoid such blunders as when Liv Tyler once tried to say _dan in
Úlaer_ "against the Ringwraiths" and quite mistakenly stressed the
definitive article _in_, instantly giving away that she had no idea what
she was really saying!)

The "Hobbit" Sindarin lines passed too quickly for me to make out the
individual words. I did notice _Iant Vedui_ "Last Bridge" in of Elrond's
lines.

As for Quenya, I believe Radagast said something about _envinyata
cuilelya_ "renew your life" when he was reviving his poor hedgehog?

- HKF

Helge

Thanks,  I am going to see the The Hobbit (at least) two more times over the
holiday break and will bring my Ipad and try to write down as much of the
Tolkien language dialogue as I can.  A start on the analysis of it.

Yes, one of my fav moments was the use of Quenya with Radagast's hedgehog -
bettcha when Tolkien turned over that notebook he was recording his Gautisk
language in and started constructed Qenya he would have no idea that many years
later the descendant of that language would be chanted above a cute (real?)
hedgehog!

Thanks, Andy

On Dec 17, 2012, at 11:37 AM, "Helge K. Fauskanger"
<helge.fauskanger@...> wrote:



Andrew Higgins wrote:

> Speaking of Orcish - was very impressed with the Orcish Language work
in The Hobbit film. interested to hear how this was constructed and if
there will be a transcript to study for it. Some words sounded Elvish to
me (like word for son) but need to see many more times to get down.

I noted that the word for Dwarf was something like "kazd" or "kast".
This would of course be a corruption of Khazâd (like "tark" for
_tarkil_, to quote a Tolkienian example).

I should very much like to have a transcription of Elrond's and
Galadriel's Sindarin utterances. The actors delivered them really well,
in a fluent manner, as if they were indeed speaking a language natural
to them -- and not, as must actually be the case, trying to get their
lips around some weird syllables they don't really understand.

I wonder if the actors were provided with an interlinear rendering of
sorts? To make the intonation natural, they should probably be able to
"feel" the meaning of the individual words as they pronounce them. (Then
we would avoid such blunders as when Liv Tyler once tried to say _dan in
Úlaer_ "against the Ringwraiths" and quite mistakenly stressed the
definitive article _in_, instantly giving away that she had no idea what
she was really saying!)

The "Hobbit" Sindarin lines passed too quickly for me to make out the
individual words. I did notice _Iant Vedui_ "Last Bridge" in of Elrond's
lines.

As for Quenya, I believe Radagast said something about _envinyata
cuilelya_ "renew your life" when he was reviving his poor hedgehog?

- HKF



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I know I'm usually quiet here, but don't many languages with strict accent
syllable rules manage to still somehow allow deviating from that for the
sake of emphasis? I always just assumed that's what happens with most of
these things--I've always said it "dol gulDUR" because it sounds darker and
more foreboding, just like I've always said "GRISHnahk" because it sounds
less friendly, more harsh, and more alien.


On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 10:20 AM, Helge K. Fauskanger <
helge.fauskanger@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Palatinus wrote:
>
> > Now, I am sorry to admit that I belong to the group of people who,
> like Helge, usually imagine this name to be "dol guldUr".
>
> Yeah, it's our nasty, shameful little secret ... as Tolkien-linguists we
> ought to know better ... :)
>
>
> > I don't record if I ever had the oportunity to pronounce this name
> in oral dialogue or discussion so I can't know how I might had
> pronounced it. I believe that I would stop for a couple of seconds to
> allow my mouth decide where to put the stress.
>
> > Indeed, in my inner ear, Adunaic, Khuzdul and Orkish prefer to be
> stressed on the final syllable, for reasons perhaps related to his given
> by Philip Wayne.
>
> The spellings á and ú in names like Grishnákh and Lugbúrz do seem to
> indicate accent, for according to Appendix E, long vowels are to be
> marked with _circumflexes_ in non-Elvish tongues.
>
> Perhaps we could imagine "Dol Guldur" as being originally THREE words,
> "Dol Gûl Dûr", "Hill of Magic Black", and then extra emphasis is put on
> "black/dark" to yield the pronunciation "Dol GulDUR"? Of course,
> Sauron's necromantic magic is as dark as it gets, and this fact deserves
> to be, ahem, stressed!
>
> We have the same final element in "Barad-dûr". If it has been written
> Baraddûr, we would have to pronounce "BarADDûr", according to Appendix
> E. But the hyphen probably hints at something special. One could
> pronounce "BAR-ad DÛR", and the only question is which syllable should
> have the primary and which one the secondary stress. The pronunciations
> heard in the original Jackson trilogy are inconsistent regarding this
> name. I haven't watched the first movies for a while, but I think Ian
> McKellen first speaks of how Sauron's fortress of "BARaddûr" has been
> rebuilt, whereas Elijah Wood later (in Moria) wonders if Gollum could
> really have escaped the dungeons of "BaradDÛR". Correct me if I'm wrong.
>
> - HKF
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Helge,


HKF> As for Quenya, I believe Radagast said something about _envinyata
HKF> cuilelya_ "renew your life" when he was reviving his poor hedgehog?

Yes.   and   one   more   word   I've  clearly  heard  was  ómaquettar
(voice-words)?

--
Tenna rato,
Menelion.

Hey guys,

I'm a new member of this group (which I love reading!) and I would like your
help with some verbal stuff in quenya.

I'm working my way through the quenya course again, this time actually making a
pretty good effort to truely understand it all and stuff. Since there are very
few exersizes in the course, I'm challenging myself by making my own. Problem
is, I get stuck every once in a while, and obviously I don't know when I make
mistakes or not.

I hope it's okay if I post a few question here once in a while, so you ' more
senior elvish liquists' can help me out ^^

Okay, my exersizes for today was writing out verbs in five forms: present tense,
aorist, perfect tense, past tense and future tense. I put the -n ending mainly
because I don't know how to write the dots on the E on this keyboard. Below are
a few words I'm unsure of. I'd like your feedback, please!

airita-
I'm totally lost as to how this perfect tense would form. I wrote down
arairitien

anta-
Same as above for the perfect tense.
anantien?

cap-
Past tense for cap- is campe (I know, there are dots)
When I add the pronoun -n does it become campen or campin?

Thanx for the help in advance!

Nicky

Hello,

I  can't answer your first question (hope Helge will, since I join you
here, perfects are complicated).

z> When I add the pronoun -n does it become campen or campin?

Campen.  -i-  is an aorist suffix, so **campin would be an aorist of a
verb **camp- if it existed.
P.S.  The  two dots (called a diaeresis) are not obligatory so you can
drop  them.  The  acute accent, however, is obligatory since there are
words differentiated only by a long/short vowel.

--
Tenna rato,
Menelion.

Nicky asked about some perfect tenses.

_Airita-_ "hallow".

Forming the perfect tense from this one is indeed tricky.  The
"stem-vowel" must be _a_, but if we prefix it as an augment, _a-air-
presumably just contracts as _air_ (as if nothing had happened!) But the
perfect ending -ie can at least be added. *_Airitie_ could do for "has
hallowed", and we'll just have to live with the fact that it is similar
in form to the gerund.

  > anta- "give"

This one we have attested! PE17:147 gives the perfect tense "has given"
as _ánie_, somewhat irregular (but compare the poetic past tense _áne_,
next to "modern" _antane_).

  > cap-
Past tense for cap- is campe (I know, there are dots)

The "dots" are not necessary; in my recent Bible translations I haven't
used them.

  > When I add the pronoun -n does it become campen or campin?

"I jumped" is _campen_, I should say.

   It is the aorist ending -e that descends from -i and is preserved in
this form when endings follow. The PAST tense ending _e_ simply descends
from a long _ê_, and undergoes no change.

- HKF

In accordance with the well-established tradition of Ardalambion
Christmas Updates, I am proud to announce that the page for the
grand(iose) Neo-Quenya New Testament translation project now also
includes a working link for the Gospel of Matthew:

http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/nqnt.htm

Admittedly, parts of the back-translation into English were prepared in
a hurry. I hope there aren't any _really_ embarrassing errors.

Of the four gospels, this only leaves Luke, the longest and most
challenging of them all (the writer employs a greater vocabulary than
the other three gospel-writers combined). Well, I guess I have twelve
months to deliver ...

With this addition, the NQNT project inches really close to the half-way
point, with 48 % of the New Testament translated. As I well know, there
are numerous inconsistencies in the text, anything from the preferred
Quenyarization of "Herod" (I now think _Herol_ is better than _Heror_)
to which neologism is matched to "donkey" and which one to "colt". But
as a draft it will have to do.

Sooner or later I shall have to revise the whole thing from beginning to
end (no small task, actually). But in the meantime, please enjoy these
drafts for what they are worth.

- HKF

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "zirkonicky" <nicky.walraven@...> wrote:
> airita-
> I'm totally lost as to how this perfect tense would form. I wrote down
> arairitien
>
> anta-
> Same as above for the perfect tense.
> anantien?

Melenion answered your second question, so I will only address your first. As
Melenion indicated, the perfect tense is complex. There simply isn't enough
evidence to say exactly how the perfect is formed in all cases.

Quenya verbs can be divided into two broad classes: basic verbs and derived (or
A-stem) verbs. The basic verbs are formed directly from some two-consonant
primitive root (such as cap- < KAP) while the derived verbs have some additional
derivative suffix such as -ta, -ya or -a.

We have a good idea how the perfects of the regular basic verbs are forms. There
are three elements:

1) The augment: The base vowel of the verb is added as prefix known as the
"augment"

2) Vowel lengthening: The base vowel of the verb is lengthened.

3) Suffixed -ie: The suffix -ie is added to the verb stem.

So, the perfect of the verb cap- "to jump" is acápie "has jumped". Of the three,
however, only the third element (the -ie suffix) appears consistently in all
perfect forms.

One complication is what to do with verbs that begin with a vowel. As Helge
Fauskanger points out in his course, one popular theory is that the entire first
syllable is duplicated, so that airita- would have the augment air- and anta-
would have the augment an- or ant-. This is just a theory, though: the only
attested example resembling this form (orórie as the perfect of ora-) was
rejected by Tolkien (VT41:13).

There are, however, several attested perfect forms without an augment. For
example, in the first edition of the Lord of the Rings, the perfect plural form
avánier "have passed" appearing in the Namárie poem was written vánier instead.
There are other examples, for example (a)mátie "have eaten" appears on PE17:13
as the perfect of mat- "to eat", the parenthesis suggesting that the augment is
optional. There is also fírie "she hath breathed forth" (MR:250).

So, if I were to write the perfect of a verb beginning with a vowel, I would
choose to use an un-augmented form, which has the advantage of being less
speculative.

As for the rest of the perfect formation for derived verb, Helge's course
suggests that vowel-lengthening would not occur when the initial syllable of the
verb is already long due to the presence of a cluster of vowels or a diphthong.
Finally, he suggests that the suffix -ie replaces the final -a. Following his
method, you would get these perfect forms:

airita- > airitie (or maybe airítie)
anta > antie

If all you want is to follow the rules of Helge's course, the above are probably
good enough.

However, not everyone agrees with this theory of the perfect forms of derived
verbs. There is another approach suggested by Thorsten Renke in his Quenya
Course. His theory is that for derived verbs, you drop the entire derivative
suffix before adding the -ie, not just the -a. This frequently allows
vowel-lengthening to occur, so you would get:

anta- > ánie

This theory has the advantage of agreeing with the attested perfect form of the
verb anta-, which appears as ánie on PE17:147. In fairness to Helge, though,
this information was published after he completed his course. It isn't clear how
Thorsten's method would handle airita- (airie?).

I have my own theory for perfect formation, inspired a statement of Tolkien's on
WJ:366, that "the forms of past and perfect became progressively more closely
associated in Quenya". I interpret this statement to mean that the perfect was
formed, not from the verb stem, but from the past tense of the verb. On the same
page, he indicates the perfect avánie, originally a-wāwiiē, received
its "n" under the influence of its past test, so that the convergence of the
past and perfect was the introduction of an "n" into the perfect suffix -ie, at
least in the case of derived verbs.

My theory is that the perfect tense of derived verbs is formed by replacing the
final vowel of the past tense with the perfect suffix -ie, and adding the
augment, if possible. So, my versions of the perfects would be based on the
attested past tenses of these verbs:

airita- > airitane (past) > airitanie (perfect)
anta- > antane (past) > antanie (perfect)

There are a few examples of derived verbs with regular past tenses that follow
this pattern:

henta- "to eye, examine, scan, read" > hentane (past) > ehentanie (perfect)
[PE17:77]
orta- "to raise" > ortane (past) > ortanie (perfect) [PE17:77]

This method becomes more powerful when you consider verbs with irregular past
tense: the so-called strong past tenses. For example, the verb anta- has an
archaic irregular past tense áne [PE17:147] as well as its regular past tense
antane. I believe the (irregular) perfect ánie is formed form this irregular
past tense, perhaps replaced by *antanie when the irregular past became
obsolete.

There a number of verbs with irregular but mutually consistent past and perfect
tenses (with and without augments):

auta- "to depart, pass away" > váne (past) > avánie (perfect) [WJ:366]
ista- "to know" > sinte (past) > isintie (perfect) [PE17:77]
lelya- "to go, proceed" > lende (past) [WJ:363] > lendie (perfect) [SD:56]
fanta- "to veil, cloak" > fáne (past) > afánie (perfect) [PE17:180]

There does seem to be a special case with ya-stem verbs (noted in Helge's course
as well), which is more consistent with the method suggested by Thorsten of
dropping the full derivative suffix. The ya-stem verbs seems to have an
irregular pattern forming both their past and perfect:

?ahya- "to change" > ahanye (past) [PM:395]
melya-  > melenye (past) > emélie (perfect) [PE17:77]
orya- "to rise" > oronye (past) > órie (perfect) [PE17:77]
sirya- > sirinye (past) > isírie (perfect) [PE17:77]
virya- > virinye (past) [PE17:189]

There are also examples of ya-stem verbs with regular weak past tenses, though
none of these have attested perfects, unfortunately:

canya- > canyane (past)
cesya- "to interest" > cesyane (past)

Under my theory, I'd guess these would have the perfect forms acanyanie and
ecesyanie.

These ya-stem verbs provide good evidence for Thorsten's theory of
derivative-suffix-dropping if they define the rule rather than the exception.
Given their irregular past tenses, however, I think that are they are
exceptional. I think that these irregular past tenses of the ya-stem verbs were
not amenable to convergence with the perfect, and therefore they retained their
older, non-nasalized perfects without any "n".

Assuming I haven't lost you entirely by this point, this hopefully gives you
some things to think about.

I cannot be much help with the actual verbs (having not gotten to that part of
the course yet), but I can help with typing the -ë. Make sure NUM LOCK is on,
hold the ALT key and press 137. Result: ë.

Hope it helps.

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "zirkonicky" <nicky.walraven@...> wrote:
>
> Hey guys,
>
> I'm a new member of this group (which I love reading!) and I would like your
help with some verbal stuff in quenya.
>
> I'm working my way through the quenya course again, this time actually making
a pretty good effort to truely understand it all and stuff. Since there are very
few exersizes in the course, I'm challenging myself by making my own. Problem
is, I get stuck every once in a while, and obviously I don't know when I make
mistakes or not.
>
> I hope it's okay if I post a few question here once in a while, so you ' more
senior elvish liquists' can help me out ^^
>
> Okay, my exersizes for today was writing out verbs in five forms: present
tense, aorist, perfect tense, past tense and future tense. I put the -n ending
mainly because I don't know how to write the dots on the E on this keyboard.
Below are a few words I'm unsure of. I'd like your feedback, please!
>
> airita-
> I'm totally lost as to how this perfect tense would form. I wrote down
> arairitien
>
> anta-
> Same as above for the perfect tense.
> anantien?
>
> cap-
> Past tense for cap- is campe (I know, there are dots)
> When I add the pronoun -n does it become campen or campin?
>
> Thanx for the help in advance!
>
> Nicky
>

I was wondering if anyone could tell me how complete this dictionary is, with
Noldorin and Sindarin words that may have blended and were made Sindarinised,
and if possible, give me the word for the interrogative adverb "why"?

Thanx for answering.

As for the perfect tense, I've re-read the course material again and think I've
found my answer there.
I think the perfect tense of airita- should be airiti"e (sorry, still don't know
how to give the e the diaresis) and hence for anta- it should be anti"e ? Would
love some feedback on that.

More questions appear along the line:
In the lessons it clearly states that the passive participle agrees in number,
but I can't find the answer to the question if that's also the case for the
active participle.

So in the sentence: 'The singing bird' I guess it translates as ' i lindala
aiw"e ' but for 'The singing birds' will it become ' i lindala aiwi'  OR 'i
lindal"e aiwi' ??


Also, a few questions regarding verbs. Please correct me where I'm wrong:

leryuvan - I shall release
lindanen - I sang (I don't have a clue how to form past tense from the verb
lind-)
metyuvan - I shall end
ororien? - I have urged (seriously no clue)
ulien - I have poured
uluvan - I shall pour

Also, the verb Palu- (to expand) gives me some trouble. I've written down the
following but I'm totally unsure if this is correct:
p'aluan
paluin
palunen
apaluien
paluvan

- what would be the perfect tense of ista- (to know)

Thanx for helping me ;-) and merry christmas and a happy new year!

That's great! Merry Christmas to you too!

"Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@...> escribió:

>In accordance with the well-established tradition of Ardalambion
>Christmas Updates, I am proud to announce that the page for the
>grand(iose) Neo-Quenya New Testament translation project now also
>includes a working link for the Gospel of Matthew:
>
>http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/nqnt.htm
>
>Admittedly, parts of the back-translation into English were prepared in
>
>a hurry. I hope there aren't any _really_ embarrassing errors.
>
>Of the four gospels, this only leaves Luke, the longest and most
>challenging of them all (the writer employs a greater vocabulary than
>the other three gospel-writers combined). Well, I guess I have twelve
>months to deliver ...
>
>With this addition, the NQNT project inches really close to the
>half-way
>point, with 48 % of the New Testament translated. As I well know, there
>
>are numerous inconsistencies in the text, anything from the preferred
>Quenyarization of "Herod" (I now think _Herol_ is better than _Heror_)
>to which neologism is matched to "donkey" and which one to "colt". But
>as a draft it will have to do.
>
>Sooner or later I shall have to revise the whole thing from beginning
>to
>end (no small task, actually). But in the meantime, please enjoy these
>drafts for what they are worth.
>
>- HKF

--
Enviado desde mi teléfono con K-9 Mail.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Helge

What an incredibly awe inspiring work which I will study.  look forward to your
updates and the site is very helpful for the work I am currently doing.

Merye Turuhalme to you!

Best Andy

Sent from the IPAD of Andrew Higgins

Andrew Higgins Head of Development and Membership
Glyndebourne (andrew.higgins@...)
and now a word from our supporters......
http://glyndebourne.com/supporting-glyndebourne

asthiggins@...  asthiggins on Facebook/Twitter
Mobile 07500 827793
And at his blog Wotan's Musings http://wotanselvishmusings.blogspot.com/


On 24 Dec 2012, at 19:07, "Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@...>
wrote:

> In accordance with the well-established tradition of Ardalambion
> Christmas Updates, I am proud to announce that the page for the
> grand(iose) Neo-Quenya New Testament translation project now also
> includes a working link for the Gospel of Matthew:
>
> http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/nqnt.htm
>
> Admittedly, parts of the back-translation into English were prepared in
> a hurry. I hope there aren't any _really_ embarrassing errors.
>
> Of the four gospels, this only leaves Luke, the longest and most
> challenging of them all (the writer employs a greater vocabulary than
> the other three gospel-writers combined). Well, I guess I have twelve
> months to deliver ...
>
> With this addition, the NQNT project inches really close to the half-way
> point, with 48 % of the New Testament translated. As I well know, there
> are numerous inconsistencies in the text, anything from the preferred
> Quenyarization of "Herod" (I now think _Herol_ is better than _Heror_)
> to which neologism is matched to "donkey" and which one to "colt". But
> as a draft it will have to do.
>
> Sooner or later I shall have to revise the whole thing from beginning to
> end (no small task, actually). But in the meantime, please enjoy these
> drafts for what they are worth.
>
> - HKF
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Saw The Hobbit again today  in 48fps 3D IMAX on massive screen - was like
adventuring in Middle Earth - when the Ring "fell" from Gollum it landed right
in front of me (wanted to reach out and grab it - but I passed the test and will
diminish....yada yada).

Very interested in the Orkish language that David Salo worked on for e movie. 
This time caught a couple a more Orkish words which seem to relate to Sindarin
but pronounced with a much more guttural sound (not the PhonoAesthetic
sensibility Tolkien liked). For example one of the Orks says SOGAR which is the
Sindarin word for' to drink 'also a word that sounds like YONDO (son of) is
spoken by AZOG when he says Thorin son of...KAZAR is also used for dwarf.

  In a recent talk David Salo gave about the Orkish language he said that for The
Hobbit movie he wold construct a new Orkish language for the goblins in The
Hobbit. These creatures would be a northern branch of the orcs, borrowing words
from dwarves, men, and even elves in the same region.'  (Posted On One Ring.net)

So far I see evidence of Orkish words based on Khazadul and Elvish - more work
to do on whether the Elvish words come from the Silvan branch of Elvish that
would have been spoken in the Northern regions of Middle Earth.

David if you see this bravo on the work you have done and would be interested in
analyzing the Orkish used in the movies.  My Current Tolkien research Phd work
is focused on the very early languages of Qenya and Goldogrin but I am also
interested in how Tolkien's languages are adapted for other media including the
Peter Jackson movies.

Many thanks. Andy

Sent from the IPAD of Andrew Higgins

Andrew Higgins Head of Development and Membership
Glyndebourne (andrew.higgins@...)
and now a word from our supporters......
http://glyndebourne.com/supporting-glyndebourne

asthiggins@...  asthiggins on Facebook/Twitter
Mobile 07500 827793
And at his blog Wotan's Musings http://wotanselvishmusings.blogspot.com/


On 28 Dec 2012, at 07:33, Alberto Aparici <ygramul.el.multiple@...> wrote:

> That's great! Merry Christmas to you too!
>
> "Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@...> escribió:
>
> >In accordance with the well-established tradition of Ardalambion
> >Christmas Updates, I am proud to announce that the page for the
> >grand(iose) Neo-Quenya New Testament translation project now also
> >includes a working link for the Gospel of Matthew:
> >
> >http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/nqnt.htm
> >
> >Admittedly, parts of the back-translation into English were prepared in
> >
> >a hurry. I hope there aren't any _really_ embarrassing errors.
> >
> >Of the four gospels, this only leaves Luke, the longest and most
> >challenging of them all (the writer employs a greater vocabulary than
> >the other three gospel-writers combined). Well, I guess I have twelve
> >months to deliver ...
> >
> >With this addition, the NQNT project inches really close to the
> >half-way
> >point, with 48 % of the New Testament translated. As I well know, there
> >
> >are numerous inconsistencies in the text, anything from the preferred
> >Quenyarization of "Herod" (I now think _Herol_ is better than _Heror_)
> >to which neologism is matched to "donkey" and which one to "colt". But
> >as a draft it will have to do.
> >
> >Sooner or later I shall have to revise the whole thing from beginning
> >to
> >end (no small task, actually). But in the meantime, please enjoy these
> >drafts for what they are worth.
> >
> >- HKF
>
> --
> Enviado desde mi teléfono con K-9 Mail.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

:


       "zirkonicky"
      
<mailto:nicky.walraven@...?subject=Re%3A%20Hi%20and%20help%20with%20verbs%\
20in%20Quenya>


wrote:

  > So in the sentence: 'The singing bird' I guess it translates as ' i
lindala aiw"e ' but for 'The singing birds' will it become ' i lindala
aiwi' OR 'i lindal"e aiwi' ??

In the "Last Ark" or Markirya poem, Tolkien does seem to let active
participles in -la refer to singular and plural words alike (best plural
example: _rámar sisílala_, "wings shining").

In my own Neo-Quenya compositions, I similarly follow the system that
active participles in -la do NOT agree in number the way regular
adjectives do. So for "singing birds" I'd say _lindala aiwi_ (or
_lindala aiweli_).

A practical concern: If we were to let -la pluralize as -le (for older
-lai), these words might be misunderstood as containing the abstract
ending -le (as in _lindale_, singing/music).

The Tolkienian evidence should perhaps be taken for what it is worth.
Markirya is in a rather confused state as regards plural agreement, with
Tolkien changing some plural adjectives to "singular" (or really
uninflected) forms, as if he considered dropping adjectival number
agreement altogether. But even the version of the poem that actually had
plural adjectives never seems to have had distinctly "plural" active
participles.

In Parma 17, we see Tolkien claiming that participles were hardly a part
of conjugation, as if there was no altogether standard way of deriving
"action-adjectives" from verbal stems. Perhaps the exact status and
behavior of (active) participles was somewhat unclear internally (that
is, in Middle-earth) as well as externally (that is, in Tolkien's head).

If used as nouns, the "participles" in -la may however pluralize as
_-lar_; hence _ealar_ "existing ones" (used to mean "beings", by
convention referring to spirits whose natural state is to exist without
a physical body: MR:165).

- HKF


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Excuse me, which dictionary?

Remember that all non-text material is removed by the group engine. Any link has
to be typed in the text, any enclosure has to be uploaded separately to the
group as a file.

Season's greetings, Mithrennaith

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Beren Erchamion" <elffanatic2000@...> wrote:
>
> I was wondering if anyone could tell me how complete this dictionary is, with
Noldorin and Sindarin words that may have blended and were made Sindarinised,
and if possible, give me the word for the interrogative adverb "why"?
>