There! I've added a version of Hebrews to my Neo-Quenya New Testament:

http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/nqnt.htm

One tricky word is "ash". I used *_litte_ as a possible cognate of
Sindarin _lith_. Is this Sindarin word really the "same" as Noldorin
_lith_ "sand" from the Etymologies, entry LIT? (Compare entry PHAU.)

In the Etymologies, _lith_  is presented as a cognate of Quenya _litse_,
"sand".

Perhaps we could imagine _lith_ covering both "sand" and "ash" (just any
kind of powder, really), but representing distinct Common Eldarin words
remaining distinct in Quenya? (*Littê "ash", *_litsê_ sand"?)

Otherwise we should have to come up with some more or less lame compound
like *_narasto_ "fire-dust" for "ash".

- HKF

> zelos (zeal or ardor). Not Indo-european, and no one seems to be sure of where
it might have come from

In his Lexicon der Indogermanischen Verben (2001) H. Rix traces Greek _zélos_
(original long _a_, Dor. _zálos_), _dízemai_ and _zetéw_ 'seek' to an IE root
*_yeh2-_ 'ask', related to Vedic _yámi_ 'I ask', _yatár-_ 'avenger' (with
agentive suffix) and _yac_ 'ask' (from extended root form *_yeh2-k-_) as well as
(probably) to Old Avestan and Tocharian forms. Pokorny had reconstructed it as
*_yâ-_ but with a meaning 'to be angry > to punish, avenge' and lists wider set
of derivatives. C. Watkins in his American Heritage Dict. agrees (*_yeh2-_> 
_yâ-_ 'to seek, request, desire').

Diego Seguí

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Howdy,

Does anyone know of a list that shows which forms in David Salo's _Gateway to
Sindarin_ are derived by Salo and are not attested in Tolkien's own writings? I
know that it was Salo's intention to mark all the forms accordingly, but (not
surprisingly) there's actually some inconsistency in the marking. For my own
purposes, I would like to know which forms Salo derived as opposed to those
which actually come from Tolkien. I haven't been able to find a comprehensive
list, however.

Thanks,
Kate

Why not use just the "genuine-Tolkien" "litse" for
both ash and sand in Quenya as well? Or assume
that Tolkien changed the meaning of both words?

Lukas


Helge K. Fauskanger scripsit:

> There! I've added a version of Hebrews to my
> Neo-Quenya New Testament:

> http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/nqnt.htm

> One tricky word is "ash". I used *_litte_ as a possible cognate of
> Sindarin _lith_. Is this Sindarin word really the "same" as Noldorin
> _lith_ "sand" from the Etymologies, entry LIT? (Compare entry PHAU.)

> In the Etymologies, _lith_  is presented as a
> cognate of Quenya _litse_,
> "sand".

> Perhaps we could imagine _lith_ covering both
> "sand" and "ash" (just any
> kind of powder, really), but representing
> distinct Common Eldarin words
> remaining distinct in Quenya? (*Littê "ash", *_litsê_ sand"?)

> Otherwise we should have to come up with some
> more or less lame compound
> like *_narasto_ "fire-dust" for "ash".

> - HKF

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Kate Ebneter <ebneter@...> wrote:
>
> Howdy,
>
> Does anyone know of a list that shows which forms in David Salo's _Gateway to
Sindarin_ are derived by Salo and are not attested in Tolkien's own writings? I
know that it was Salo's intention to mark all the forms accordingly, but (not
surprisingly) there's actually some inconsistency in the marking. For my own
purposes, I would like to know which forms Salo derived as opposed to those
which actually come from Tolkien. I haven't been able to find a comprehensive
list, however.
>
> Thanks,
> Kate
>

Naturally, I have a list -- several, actually -- but a lot depends on what you
mean by "not attested".  For instance, the gerund _aderthad_ "reuniting" is
attested. Gerunds in -ad are regularly formed from verbs in -a-.  So is adertha-
"reunite" a reconstruction of an unattested verb, or can we consider _aderthad_
to be a verbal form which attests the verb, just as _linnathon_ attests the verb
_linna-_? Without a definite (and arbitrary) answer to such questions, it's
impossible to say which words are "attested" and which are not.

I do, however, want to draw attention to a number of "ghost words" which
appeared in Gateway: unattested words which were mostly taken from compounds or
inflected forms, which, based on reanalysis or additional information, I no
longer think can be accepted as Sindarin. These are:

dae "great" -- I took this from the compound Daed(h)elos, "Great Fear", but it
now seems this is a reduplication.  The correct word for "great" is _daer_.

gochel "ice" -- Taken from Forochel, which now appears to be forod+hel(l). 
There is still an inconsistency in formation between this and Arothir
(arod+hîr).

govad- "meet" -- Taken from govannen. I still think this was the basis of the
word govannen at the time The Lord of the Rings was written, but Tolkien revised
his interpretation of the word.

ir "the" -- From the phrase ir Ithil.  I didn't have sufficient basis for
asserting this meaning of the word.  It might mean something else, though I'm
not sure what. There are very little grounds for assuming an antihiatic r,
however.

ivor "crystal" -- I shouldn't have included this in Gateway. There's no basis
for it at all.

ivrin "crystalline" -- Ivrin is a real word, but there's insufficient evidence
for this meaning.

los "flower" -- I took this from the words mallos, uilos, and Edhellos, but I
think they all have different explanations. E.g., Edhellos may be a
dissimilation from *Edhelloth.

ostirion "fortress with watch-tower". This is almost certainly a Quenya word. I
assumed, on insufficient grounds, that the placename "Elostirion" had to be
Sindarin; I now think that was wrong.

rêg "holly, thorn". I took this from the place-name Region, but there's
insufficient evidence for this meaning in Sindarin.

rhu- "east". I assumed this was a by-form of rhûn in the name Rhudaur, but it
appears to have a different etymology, from the root SRUG, and means "evil".

ruith "anger". I constructed this as a Sindarin equivalent to "Noldorin" rúth
(from the sword-name Aranrúth), assuming the root RUK.  This was wrong; the
etymology is from a root RUTH, and the Sindarin should still be rúth.

taig "marking a boundary". I assumed this to be the first element in the
place-name Taiglin/Teiglin, but there was insufficient evidence for it.

tirion "watchtower" -- A Quenya word.

tirn "watcher" -- I took this from the words ethir "spy", gwachaedir
"Palantír", and heledirn "kingfisher", but there was insufficient evidence to
show that (a) it was present in all of these words (I doubt very much the -n(o)
element existed in gwachaedir, and probably not in ethir either) (b) existed as
an independent word.

thaur "fenced". Assumed to be an element in the placename Arthórien, on the
analogy of a similar name in The Etymologies. There's insufficient evidence for
this meaning, or for the independent existence of the word.

On Nov 12, 2012, at 8:37 AM, iiipitaka wrote:

>
>
> --- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Kate Ebneter <ebneter@...> wrote:
> >
> > Howdy,
> >
> > Does anyone know of a list that shows which forms in David Salo's _Gateway
to Sindarin_ are derived by Salo and are not attested in Tolkien's own writings?
I know that it was Salo's intention to mark all the forms accordingly, but (not
surprisingly) there's actually some inconsistency in the marking. For my own
purposes, I would like to know which forms Salo derived as opposed to those
which actually come from Tolkien. I haven't been able to find a comprehensive
list, however.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Kate
> >
>
> Naturally, I have a list -- several, actually -- but a lot depends on what you
mean by "not attested". For instance, the gerund _aderthad_ "reuniting" is
attested. Gerunds in -ad are regularly formed from verbs in -a-. So is adertha-
"reunite" a reconstruction of an unattested verb, or can we consider _aderthad_
to be a verbal form which attests the verb, just as _linnathon_ attests the verb
_linna-_? Without a definite (and arbitrary) answer to such questions, it's
impossible to say which words are "attested" and which are not.
>
>
Hi, David,

Thanks for the quick response! What I meant by "unattested" is that Tolkien
himself had "asterisk words" in his writings, e.g., in the Etymologies, and
there are also "asterisk words" in your book, some of which are derived by you,
and it's not always clear to me which is which, at least, without digging
through a lot of books. It's not that I think yours are invalid or anything, I
just am interested in seeing which constructions were made by Tolkien and which
were derived by someone working with Tolkien's principles. So, yes, strictly
speaking, for my purposes, _adertha_ would be "unattested" as the word _per se_
wasn't written down anywhere (that we know of) by Tolkien, but was derived by
you. I don't doubt its _correctness_, of course.

Thanks,
Kate



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I saw that Parma Eldalamberon #19 has information about Talika's phonology.
  How much is there?  To what extent could we find or work out a table of
phonemes?  Is Taliska included in the portion that discusses what real
world languages Tolkien based his languages on?

I'm interested since the amount of such information would impact whether
it's worthwhile for me to purchase the issue.

Thanks!

Jay


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Taliska is one of the languages appearing in the first article, Comparative
Tables, along with the major languages of the Etymologies and West, North
and East Avarin. The basic development of initial, medial and final
consonants is described, as well as the basic development of vowels.
Taliska is said to be of the Gothic language type, though this probably
refers to phonetic style rather than vocabulary.

It is all tabular data. There isn't any detailed discussion, though the
other article in PE19 discuss the phonetic development of Quenya in great
detail.

It appears that the tables have a fairly complete phonetic inventory for
Taliska, though.

On Nov 14, 2012, at 9:05 PM, Jay Lawson <jay.lawson@...> wrote:



I saw that Parma Eldalamberon #19 has information about Talika's phonology.
How much is there? To what extent could we find or work out a table of
phonemes? Is Taliska included in the portion that discusses what real
world languages Tolkien based his languages on?

I'm interested since the amount of such information would impact whether
it's worthwhile for me to purchase the issue.

Thanks!

Jay

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello all
I have a question regarding writing Sindarin in tengwar in the mode of
Beleriand, that is with the vowels indicated by tehta.  When writing   " in +
galaidh " > i- ngelaidh,  where the g is nasally mutated and the n of the prefix
is transferred to the noun, should this be written beginning with the i tehta
above noldo ? Or should it be i tehta above luva carrier + nasal bar above anga,
or some other form ?
Bob

Re my previous message
Sorry, I should have said the Gondorian consonantal mode, not Beleriand. I was
looking at the wrong page of the article. As is probably obvious, I am a
beginner to learning Sindarin.
Bob

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Bob" <rfh48@...> wrote:
>
> Hello all
> I have a question regarding writing Sindarin in tengwar in the mode of
Beleriand, that is with the vowels indicated by tehta.  When writing   " in +
galaidh " > i- ngelaidh,  where the g is nasally mutated and the n of the prefix
is transferred to the noun, should this be written beginning with the i tehta
above noldo ? Or should it be i tehta above luva carrier + nasal bar above anga,
or some other form ?
> Bob
>

First, hi to you all :) I'm new member of group, hovever I was anonymously
reading for a lnog long time. Sorry for my rather bad english.

My friend ask me to felp - she need word blused or flushed or something, what
have this meaning. Well I'm not word creating type, my knowledge says me only
that i need word meaning "red" and I need to do something with this word. Root
"carni-" in my opinion is the right one but I really don't know what im supposed
to add. Any adwice or suggestion will be very appreciated.


Greetings

Tavarnarmo

The name S. Caranthir, Q. Carnistir means "Red Face" (PM:353). Perhaps
an adjectival form of this would work, maybe *carnistira "red-faced"?

On 11/17/12 12:44 AM, tavarnarmo wrote:
>
> First, hi to you all :) I'm new member of group, hovever I was
> anonymously reading for a lnog long time. Sorry for my rather bad english.
>
> My friend ask me to felp - she need word blused or flushed or
> something, what have this meaning. Well I'm not word creating type, my
> knowledge says me only that i need word meaning "red" and I need to do
> something with this word. Root "carni-" in my opinion is the right one
> but I really don't know what im supposed to add. Any adwice or
> suggestion will be very appreciated.
>
> Greetings
>
> Tavarnarmo
>
>

I'm sorry my post wasn't correct. I need a verb, not an adjective.

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Paul Strack <pfstrack@...> wrote:
>
> The name S. Caranthir, Q. Carnistir means "Red Face" (PM:353). Perhaps
> an adjectival form of this would work, maybe *carnistira "red-faced"?
>
> On 11/17/12 12:44 AM, tavarnarmo wrote:
> >
> > First, hi to you all :) I'm new member of group, hovever I was
> > anonymously reading for a lnog long time. Sorry for my rather bad english.
> >
> > My friend ask me to felp - she need word blused or flushed or
> > something, what have this meaning. Well I'm not word creating type, my
> > knowledge says me only that i need word meaning "red" and I need to do
> > something with this word. Root "carni-" in my opinion is the right one
> > but I really don't know what im supposed to add. Any adwice or
> > suggestion will be very appreciated.
> >
> > Greetings
> >
> > Tavarnarmo
> >
> >
>

Greetings All

Today's Sunday Times here in the UK has a special Hobbit film magazine coverage
which online includes several videos.  One by one of The Hobbit film language
coaches, Rosin Carry, includes an intro talk on Quenya and Sindarin and mentions
that in The Hobbit films the Wizards will speak some Quenya.

Then she gives three examples of Sindarin:

How are you? (Happy am I beyond that which you know) - Elin eb I istodh na Dirad
Lin

Let's go - Boe i'watham (lit It is necessary we leave)

Should we have a glass of wine - Nauthon I miruvor ammen man pedidh?

Interesting.  Good to know the last expression - must be used by the Wood Elves!

You can access the video on line but need to subscribe to Times to do so.

David - are you working on this with them?

Thanks Andy

Sent from the IPAD of Andrew Higgins

Andrew Higgins Head of Development and Membership
Glyndebourne (andrew.higgins@...)
and now a word from our supporters......
http://glyndebourne.com/supporting-glyndebourne

asthiggins@...  asthiggins on Facebook/Twitter
Mobile 07500 827793
And at his blog Wotan's Musings http://wotanselvishmusings.blogspot.com/



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Very tentative:

*carnitakse "redden oneself" *roinatakse similar meaning; cf. _envinyata-_ "make
new again"

or figuratively, _cendeleya urunye_ "his face burned"

 
Tamas


Let's discuss Eldarin languages - http://aglardh.middangeard.org.uk

________________________________
From: tavarnarmo <tavarunya@...>
To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2012 7:26 AM
Subject: [elfling] Re: "Blushed" or "flushed" in quenya

I'm sorry my post wasn't correct. I need a verb, not an adjective.

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Paul Strack <pfstrack@...> wrote:
>
> The name S. Caranthir, Q. Carnistir means "Red Face" (PM:353). Perhaps
> an adjectival form of this would work, maybe *carnistira "red-faced"?
>
> On 11/17/12 12:44 AM, tavarnarmo wrote:
> >
> > First, hi to you all :) I'm new member of group, hovever I was
> > anonymously reading for a lnog long time. Sorry for my rather bad english.
> >
> > My friend ask me to felp - she need word blused or flushed or
> > something, what have this meaning. Well I'm not word creating type, my
> > knowledge says me only that i need word meaning "red" and I need to do
> > something with this word. Root "carni-" in my opinion is the right one
> > but I really don't know what im supposed to add. Any adwice or
> > suggestion will be very appreciated.
> >
> > Greetings
> >
> > Tavarnarmo
> >
> >
>




------------------------------------

--
Manager address: elfling-owner@yahoogroups.com
Unsub address: elfling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Elfling welcome: http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea/elfling.html
Elfling FAQ: http://nellardo.com/lang/elf/faq.htmlYahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Judging by the third copy of the King's Letter, where _i Varanduiniant_ has an
i-tehta above <ampa> for _i V..._, the definite article might in such cases be
regarded as a component of the following word. Thus, the inital part of
_i-ngelaidh_ may be written with an i-tehta above <ungwe> with a nasal bar.

Yours,
MÃ¥ns

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Bob" <rfh48@...> wrote:
>
> Re my previous message
> Sorry, I should have said the Gondorian consonantal mode, not Beleriand. I was
looking at the wrong page of the article. As is probably obvious, I am a
beginner to learning Sindarin.
> Bob
>
> --- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Bob" <rfh48@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello all
> > I have a question regarding writing Sindarin in tengwar in the mode of
Beleriand, that is with the vowels indicated by tehta.  When writing   " in +
galaidh " > i- ngelaidh,  where the g is nasally mutated and the n of the prefix
is transferred to the noun, should this be written beginning with the i tehta
above noldo ? Or should it be i tehta above luva carrier + nasal bar above anga,
or some other form ?
> > Bob
> >
>

I'm still working on Tennyson's The Lady of Shalott, and came upon a difficult
line:

"The gemmy bridle glittered free"

And I can find no way to reconstruct "bridle". I was thinking something like,
"mouth-puller" or "head-puller". Any ideas?

Thank you Mans. I was confusing the tengwar usages between the Beleriand and
Gondor modes. However, I still don't understand why a nasal bar would be used
with <ungwe>. Wouldn't <i-tehta> <ungwe> <nasal bar> read as "inng-" rather than
" ing-" ? I thought the n from "in" was joining to the g in "gelaidh".
Bob


--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, MÃ¥ns <at@...> wrote:
>
> Judging by the third copy of the King's Letter, where _i Varanduiniant_ has an
i-tehta above <ampa> for _i V..._, the definite article might in such cases be
regarded as a component of the following word. Thus, the inital part of
_i-ngelaidh_ may be written with an i-tehta above <ungwe> with a nasal bar.
>
> Yours,
> MÃ¥ns
>
> --- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Bob" <rfh48@> wrote:
> >
> > Re my previous message
> > Sorry, I should have said the Gondorian consonantal mode, not Beleriand. I
was looking at the wrong page of the article. As is probably obvious, I am a
beginner to learning Sindarin.
> > Bob
> >
> > --- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Bob" <rfh48@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello all
> > > I have a question regarding writing Sindarin in tengwar in the mode of
Beleriand, that is with the vowels indicated by tehta.  When writing   " in +
galaidh " > i- ngelaidh,  where the g is nasally mutated and the n of the prefix
is transferred to the noun, should this be written beginning with the i tehta
above noldo ? Or should it be i tehta above luva carrier + nasal bar above anga,
or some other form ?
> > > Bob
> > >
> >
>

Sindarin for "stirrup" is talraph (lenited in Udalraph "stirrupless",
UT:313). The first element is clearly tâl "foot". The second has been
conjectured to be "rope" (foot-rope), but there is a root RAPH on
PE19:89 glossed "seize, grab", so maybe talraph is really "foot grabber".

You might try "mouth grabber" (or perhaps "mouth rope", either would
work). The primitive of _raph_ could be *raph� with Q. *rapo, giving Q.
*antorapo for "mouth grabber/rope".

On 11/20/12 8:29 PM, dreamingfifi wrote:
>
> I'm still working on Tennyson's The Lady of Shalott, and came upon a
> difficult line:
>
> "The gemmy bridle glittered free"
>
> And I can find no way to reconstruct "bridle". I was thinking
> something like, "mouth-puller" or "head-puller". Any ideas?
>
>

How about the attested _tampa_ 'stopper' (TAP-)? The other possibility is to
combine _latta_ 'strap' (LATH-) with one of the nouns meaning 'mouth'.

 
Tamas


Let's discuss Eldarin languages - http://aglardh.middangeard.org.uk



________________________________
  From: dreamingfifi <elvenswordsmith@...>
To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 4:29 AM
Subject: [elfling] Translating "Bridle" into Sindarin

I'm still working on Tennyson's The Lady of Shalott, and came upon a difficult
line:

"The gemmy bridle glittered free"

And I can find no way to reconstruct "bridle". I was thinking something like,
"mouth-puller" or "head-puller". Any ideas?



------------------------------------

--
Manager address: elfling-owner@yahoogroups.com
Unsub address: elfling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Elfling welcome: http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea/elfling.html
Elfling FAQ: http://nellardo.com/lang/elf/faq.htmlYahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thank you for your help :)

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, TF <percival64@...> wrote:
>
> Very tentative:
>
> *carnitakse "redden oneself" *roinatakse similar meaning; cf. _envinyata-_
"make new again"
>
> or figuratively, _cendeleya urunye_ "his face burned"
>
> �
> Tamas

Accoring to the "Gondor mode" (i.e. the one used in DTS 49), <ungwe> is used for
/g/. To represent /ng/, a nasal bar has to be added.

/Måns


--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Bob" <rfh48@...> wrote:
>
> Thank you Mans. I was confusing the tengwar usages between the Beleriand and
Gondor modes. However, I still don't understand why a nasal bar would be used
with <ungwe>. Wouldn't <i-tehta> <ungwe> <nasal bar> read as "inng-" rather than
" ing-" ? I thought the n from "in" was joining to the g in "gelaidh".
> Bob
>
>
> --- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, MÃ¥ns <at@> wrote:
> >
> > Judging by the third copy of the King's Letter, where _i Varanduiniant_ has
an i-tehta above <ampa> for _i V..._, the definite article might in such cases
be regarded as a component of the following word. Thus, the inital part of
_i-ngelaidh_ may be written with an i-tehta above <ungwe> with a nasal bar.
> >
> > Yours,
> > MÃ¥ns
> >
> > --- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Bob" <rfh48@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Re my previous message
> > > Sorry, I should have said the Gondorian consonantal mode, not Beleriand. I
was looking at the wrong page of the article. As is probably obvious, I am a
beginner to learning Sindarin.
> > > Bob
> > >
> > > --- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Bob" <rfh48@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hello all
> > > > I have a question regarding writing Sindarin in tengwar in the mode of
Beleriand, that is with the vowels indicated by tehta.  When writing   " in +
galaidh " > i- ngelaidh,  where the g is nasally mutated and the n of the prefix
is transferred to the noun, should this be written beginning with the i tehta
above noldo ? Or should it be i tehta above luva carrier + nasal bar above anga,
or some other form ?
> > > > Bob
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Alla Illi,


for anyone who's interested and has a Google account, I have created a Google
Plus (or Kúkel + as it is known among the Elves of Aman:) community, as another
- perhaps more immediate - way and platform to talk about the languages we all
love. We can even have a go at chatting in Quenya (or any other language if we
dare).

Here's the link: https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities/105957840800720660334

See you online

Tamas Ferencz


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I saw the new Hobbit movie last night (at midnight, having secured a
free ticket as part of my compensation from the cinema for writing
people's names in Tengwar all evening ... who says knowledge of
Tolkien-linguistics isn't practical?)

The conlang element in the movie most prominently consists of lots and
lots of Orkish, which necessarily must be almost completely free
invention. But some Sindarin phrases are also heard, and Cate Blanchett
and Hugo Weaving have achieved a rather nice accent. (Ian McKellen's
"Gandalf" seems to have some problems with pure vowels, though.) It is
positively heartening to hear "Mithrandir" pronounced without the final
syllable being blurred into a lazy "uhr", English-style.

One issue has to do with the accent in "Dol Guldur". In the movie, the
final element is consistenly accented "gulDUR". Funny thing is, that is
how the name has always sounded to my inner ear as well! I was almost
disappointed with myself, for of course it should be "GULdur" according
to the stress rules set out in Appendix E. And yet I somehow
(perversely!) "preferred" the pronunciation with the accent on the final
syllable.

And apparently the movie-makers agree with me -- against Tolkien's
instructions in Appendix E! Any idea why some people somehow find the
pronunciation "gulDUR" more natural? Being one of those people, I know
that _I_  can't point to any rational reason...

- HKF

I'm no expert, but DOL gulDUR sounds more euphonius to my Australian
English ears than DOL GULdur.

On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 9:47 AM, Helge K. Fauskanger <
helge.fauskanger@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> I saw the new Hobbit movie last night (at midnight, having secured a
> free ticket as part of my compensation from the cinema for writing
> people's names in Tengwar all evening ... who says knowledge of
> Tolkien-linguistics isn't practical?)
>
> The conlang element in the movie most prominently consists of lots and
> lots of Orkish, which necessarily must be almost completely free
> invention. But some Sindarin phrases are also heard, and Cate Blanchett
> and Hugo Weaving have achieved a rather nice accent. (Ian McKellen's
> "Gandalf" seems to have some problems with pure vowels, though.) It is
> positively heartening to hear "Mithrandir" pronounced without the final
> syllable being blurred into a lazy "uhr", English-style.
>
> One issue has to do with the accent in "Dol Guldur". In the movie, the
> final element is consistenly accented "gulDUR". Funny thing is, that is
> how the name has always sounded to my inner ear as well! I was almost
> disappointed with myself, for of course it should be "GULdur" according
> to the stress rules set out in Appendix E. And yet I somehow
> (perversely!) "preferred" the pronunciation with the accent on the final
> syllable.
>
> And apparently the movie-makers agree with me -- against Tolkien's
> instructions in Appendix E! Any idea why some people somehow find the
> pronunciation "gulDUR" more natural? Being one of those people, I know
> that _I_ can't point to any rational reason...
>
> - HKF
>
>



--

Have Fun...
Nik


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Helke

I also think that it is natural to accentuate the last syllable at the end of
this frightening name.
may be it is more emotional and dramatic in ears to finish with a long and
strong GulDUUUUUR... like a following shadow ;)

It was a pleasure to heard elvish in Middle Earth again :)

best regards

Serge Mouton - France 


________________________________
  De : Helge K. Fauskanger <helge.fauskanger@...>
À : elfling@yahoogroups.com
Envoyé le : Mercredi 12 décembre 2012 23h47
Objet : [elfling] Dol GULdur or Dol GulDUR?


 
I saw the new Hobbit movie last night (at midnight, having secured a
free ticket as part of my compensation from the cinema for writing
people's names in Tengwar all evening ... who says knowledge of
Tolkien-linguistics isn't practical?)

The conlang element in the movie most prominently consists of lots and
lots of Orkish, which necessarily must be almost completely free
invention. But some Sindarin phrases are also heard, and Cate Blanchett
and Hugo Weaving have achieved a rather nice accent. (Ian McKellen's
"Gandalf" seems to have some problems with pure vowels, though.) It is
positively heartening to hear "Mithrandir" pronounced without the final
syllable being blurred into a lazy "uhr", English-style.

One issue has to do with the accent in "Dol Guldur". In the movie, the
final element is consistenly accented "gulDUR". Funny thing is, that is
how the name has always sounded to my inner ear as well! I was almost
disappointed with myself, for of course it should be "GULdur" according
to the stress rules set out in Appendix E. And yet I somehow
(perversely!) "preferred" the pronunciation with the accent on the final
syllable.

And apparently the movie-makers agree with me -- against Tolkien's
instructions in Appendix E! Any idea why some people somehow find the
pronunciation "gulDUR" more natural? Being one of those people, I know
that _I_  can't point to any rational reason...

- HKF



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> One issue has to do with the accent in "Dol Guldur". In the movie, the
> final element is consistenly accented "gulDUR". Funny thing is, that is
> how the name has always sounded to my inner ear as well! I was almost
> disappointed with myself, for of course it should be "GULdur" according
> to the stress rules set out in Appendix E. And yet I somehow
> (perversely!) "preferred" the pronunciation with the accent on the final
> syllable.
>
> And apparently the movie-makers agree with me -- against Tolkien's
> instructions in Appendix E! Any idea why some people somehow find the
> pronunciation "gulDUR" more natural? Being one of those people, I know
> that _I_  can't point to any rational reason...

I think it's more likely - and merily - a kind of "cinematographic emphasis" in
order to give this name a more gloomy aspect.

DG

Perhaps because Tolkein based the dark tongues (incuding orcish) on the
Semitic languages, including Hebrew. Hebrew has an accent on the final
syllable in a mojority of cases

Just a guess.

--
Often wrong, never in doubt (Ivy Baker Priest, Green Grows the Ivy, 1958)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Helge,


HKF> how the name has always sounded to my inner ear as well! I was almost
HKF> disappointed with myself, for of course it should be "GULdur" according
HKF> to the stress rules set out in Appendix E. And yet I somehow
HKF> (perversely!) "preferred" the pronunciation with the accent on the final
HKF> syllable.

I also do have such a point. For me it's too painful to accent on E in
names  like  earEndil, elEndil. To my inner ear they sound stressed on
the prepenultimate syllable: eArendil, Elendil :-)

--
Tenna rato,
Menelion.

On 2012-12-12, Helge K. Fauskanger <helge.fauskanger@...> wrote:
> instructions in Appendix E! Any idea why some people somehow find the
> pronunciation "gulDUR" more natural? Being one of those people, I know
> that _I_  can't point to any rational reason...

I think there are a number of reasons for English speakers. English is
a largely trochaic language, and doesn't much like putting two, let
alone three, heavy syllables together.
Perhaps more importantly, the nearest English equivalent to /ur/ is
the <oor> sound in moor, poor, etc. This sound only occurs in
monosyllables (or derivatives thereof, e.g. "doorless"), and always
carries the stress. So doing an unstressed /ur/ is a profoundly
un-English thing to do.

I don't know whether there's any similar effect in Norwegian; but most
likely you've assimilated this native intuition for English!

--
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.