Hello Helge,


HKF> _Erunesto_ (or _-tar_), from the simple nominal sentence "God (is) a
HKF> healer", could be a possibility.

Couldn't  it  be  an  ambiguity?  Cf., for example, "Eruontari" (God's
mother  ==  female-begetter).  So  if  I  heard "erunestar" first, I'd
translate  it as "God-healer" (meaning some over-omnipotent person who
can heal God himself!). Am I wrong here?)


--
With best regards,
Menelion.

Utúrin

Et lomillo ya túpa ni
Morna ve Latta sis yo tar,
Feanya utúriman
Hantan Valar i valuvar.

Umbarto aika nondasse
únen Þorya, únen naina,
Undu amarto palpie
Karinya yorna, 'nanta orwa.

Han sina rúsea, naika men
Eresse lumbova norto ná.
Ananta loaron sangie
Hire ni uÞorima.

U ape man' náha i ando,
Ké namínen i parma úma,
Nán martanyava káno,
É feanyo hesto vora.

William Ernest Henley
 
Tamas Ferencz


Let's discuss Eldarin languages - http://aglardh.middangeard.org.uk
Tolkien Wiktionary - http://www.eldarinwiki.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Menelion wrote, regarding my suggested translation of "God (is) a healer":

  > So if I heard "erunestar" first, I'd translate it as "God-healer"
(meaning some over-omnipotent person who can heal God himself!). Am I
wrong here?)

Compounds are of course notoriously obscure as to what the exact logical
relationship between their elements really is. Yes, it could be
understood the way you suggest.

Hebrew has a class of names that are actually entire sentences, such as
Nathanael (God has given) or Raphael (God has healed). In Quenya I guess
we could say something like _enestie Eru_, "God has healed", and then
turn it into a "name" _Enestiéru_. But it must be said that there is no
Tolkien-made Quenya name that is formed on any such pattern.

Also, let me reiterate that _nesta-_ as the word for "heal" is more than
a little speculative. Parma Eldalamberon 19, page 28, mentions a Quenya
word (verb?) _nesta_ without defining it; Tolkien only used it to
illustrate a phonological point. We may, for our convenience, choose to
assume that this is the cognate of Sindarin _nesta-_ "heal" (I believe
the attested form is the gerund _nestad_, mentioned in connection with
the Houses of Healing in Minas Tirith).

- HKF




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Helge,
Thanks for your observations!

HKF> Also, let me reiterate that _nesta-_ as the word for "heal" is more than
HKF> a little speculative.

Here  my opinion (if it matters) is the following: we should use _any_
possible word suggested by Tolkien. I hope you'll agree that, although
Quenya  is  a  rich language, we have no words for many simple things.
And if there is a word either in Qenya, or extrapolated from Sindarin,
or  made from a primary (proto-Eldarin) root, we should use it even if
it is not "pure Quenya".
The  last  example  of this is the word for _egg_. Do we have a Quenya
word?  No.  Do we have a Sindarin word? Nope. But we have a Qenya one.
So,  if there is no phonological controversy (and there is not in this
case),  we should use this word because it's still a "Tolkienian" one,
not invented by ourselves.
That's what i think).
Thanks!


--
With best regards,
Menelion.

Here it is: http://www.realelvish.net/phrasebook.php

I know that it is gigantic and a lot to ask of anyone, but I want to make sure
that I got this right. (or as "right" as we can be in the mushy world of
Tolkien-Languages)

I've been starting to reach into the world of Quenya, widening my focus from
just Sindarin, but I'm still very new at it. So, I've probably made all kinds of
errors in the Quenya translations (especially since I was trying to do
Vanyarin-styled translations at the same time) I depended very heavily on
Helge's and Thorsten's articles and work on Quenya, and less on my own research
because I'm very much not caught up on researching Quenya, in comparison to
Sindarin. The Vanyarin dialect portions I'm particularly interested to see the
distinguished members of this forum correct/argue over.

Also, if anyone knows more about Adunaic pronunciation... I did a little
research but found that I was still missing some key points (stress patterns for
example). I didn't do the Aduna translations; Ederchil did (based off of
Thorsten's textbook, IIRC), and I've only done minimal research into it. I can't
really answer for that section beyond the pronunciation.

For the Sindarin sections, I'm looking for criticism on the way I've done the
dialects. It's closely tied with my textbook's 8th chapter (still finishing the
section on Gondorians and analogous changes to the verb system... agh) and I'd
like to know what others think about what I've done on the dialects of Sindarin
thusfar. I'm a little more iffy on my interpretation of Southern Beleriand
Sindarin and its connection with later Woodelven Sindarin.

Anyways, I'd be grateful for any help/criticism here.

Thank you greatly,

Fiona

Mai omentaina, Fióna :-)!

I  will  make  a  full analysis of your Quenya phrasebook, if you want
(though  I'm  not  an  expert  like  Helge  or  Thorsten, I'm studying
everything concerning Quenya now).
Just   for  quick reference now: you have several mistakes when making
"we" phrases. Note:
-lwe  -  We  (incl., i.e. thou, I and someone else). It became -lve in
Exilic Quenya but me personally, I prefer using "auld style" :-).
-lme - we (excl., i.e. me, someone else, but not thou)
-ngwe - We (dual, incl., i.e., thou and I)
-mme - We (dual, excl., i.e. me and some else, but not thou)
And  more  one  quick  notice:  I'd suggest you to provide one form if
there are ambiguities. That concerns "-nte" vs. "-lte" for "they" (I,
like Helge, prefer "-lte"); "-lde" vs. "-lle" for "you (pl.)".
More comes next :-).

--
Tenna rato. Menelion Elensúle.

I don't know the poem that was translated. Here is what I make of this:

  > Utúrin

Don't quite get this one. _Utúrien_ could mean 'I have ruled' or 'I have
conquered'.

  > Et lomillo ya túpa ni
Out of (a/the) night that is covering me

  > Morna ve Latta sis yo tar,
Dark as the Pit here and ?there (tar = thither)

  > Feanya utúriman
For my ?unruly soul

  > Hantan Valar i valuvar.
I thank (the) Valar that will rule [= see to it]

  >Umbarto aika nondasse
Of fate's [or: a fated one's] sharp hand

  >únen Þorya, únen naina,
I did not dread, I did not lament

  > Undu amarto palpie
Under fate's beating

  > Karinya yorna, 'nanta orwa.
My head ?enclosed and yet tall

  > Han sina rúsea, naika men
Beyond this wrathful, grievous place

  >Eresse lumbova norto ná.
Solitude of shadow is a horror [Or 'solitude is horror of a shadow'?
What word does _lumbova_ modify?]

  >Ananta loaron sangie
And yet the tribulation of years

  > Hire ni uÞorima.
finds me ?not prone to dread [if derived from Þorya-]

  > U ape man' náha i ando,
Does not touch ?how narrow [is] the gate [?!?]

  >Ké namínen i parma úma,
Maybe [or: if] ?by judgements the book ?does not [?!?]

  > Nán martanyava káno,
I am commander of my destiny

  > É feanyo hesto vora.
Indeed my soul's captain always.

- HKF




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tamas,

Mai carina. Nás mára nin i linde. I especially like the line: Karinya yorna,
'nanta orwa.

Evamdil

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, TF <percival64@...> wrote:
>
> Utúrin
>
> Et lomillo ya túpa ni
> Morna ve Latta sis yo tar,
> Feanya utúriman
> Hantan Valar i valuvar.
>
> Umbarto aika nondasse
> únen Þorya, únen naina,
> Undu amarto palpie
> Karinya yorna, 'nanta orwa.
>
> Han sina rúsea, naika men
> Eresse lumbova norto ná.
> Ananta loaron sangie
> Hire ni uÞorima.
>
> U ape man' náha i ando,
> Ké namínen i parma úma,
> Nán martanyava káno,
> É feanyo hesto vora.
>
> William Ernest Henley
>  
> Tamas Ferencz
>
>
> Let's discuss Eldarin languages - http://aglardh.middangeard.org.uk
> Tolkien Wiktionary - http://www.eldarinwiki.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@...>
wrote:
>
> I don't know the poem that was translated. Here is what I make of this:

The poem is _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley.
Here's a link to the original English version:

http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/invictus/

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "dreamingfifi" <elvenswordsmith@...> wrote:

> Also, if anyone knows more about Adunaic pronunciation... I did a little
research but found that I was still missing some key points (stress patterns for
example). I didn't do the Aduna translations; Ederchil did (based off of
Thorsten's textbook, IIRC), and I've only done minimal research into it. I can't
really answer for that section beyond the pronunciation.

In his published notes Tolkien seems to have made no direct mentions about the
stress, so one can only guess.

A great part of Adûnaic was rather undeniably inspired by Middle Eastern
languages, where the stress tends to gravitate towards the end of the word when
(respectively) possible. Words with closed final syllables like _magân_ would be
stressed on the final syllable in Arabic, Hebrew and Persian alike.

The case rather reminds one about the different scholarly opinions concerning
the stress in Aramaic dialects no longer spoken!

Elhath / S.P.

Hi Helge,

well, I had to take some poetic license here and there to preserve the flow and
feel of the original ;)

 



I don't know the poem that was translated. Here is what I make of this:

> Utúrin

Don't quite get this one. _Utúrien_ could mean 'I have ruled' or 'I have
conquered'.

> Et lomillo ya túpa ni
Out of (a/the) night that is covering me

> Morna ve Latta sis yo tar,
Dark as the Pit here and ?there (tar = thither)

TF: indeed _tas_ would be better

> Feanya utúriman
For my ?unruly soul

> Hantan Valar i valuvar.
I thank (the) Valar that will rule [= see to it]

>Umbarto aika nondasse
Of fate's [or: a fated one's] sharp hand

TF: aika as in 'fell, dire' here;

>únen Þorya, únen naina,
I did not dread, I did not lament

> Undu amarto palpie
Under fate's beating

> Karinya yorna, 'nanta orwa.
My head ?enclosed and yet tall

TF: *yorna 'bloody'; *yórea would probably be less ambiguous but too long...

> Han sina rúsea, naika men
Beyond this wrathful, grievous place

>Eresse lumbova norto ná.
Solitude of shadow is a horror [Or 'solitude is horror of a shadow'?
What word does _lumbova_ modify?]

TF: _eresse_ stands as and adverb here;

>Ananta loaron sangie
And yet the tribulation of years

> Hire ni uÞorima.
finds me ?not prone to dread [if derived from Þorya-]

> U ape man' náha i ando,
Does not touch ?how narrow [is] the gate [?!?]

TF: *u ape: my neologism to convey 'it matters not, it's all the same'; I was
thinking about conjugating it somehow (*uas ape? uas ape ni?) but I imagine this
is a formation that could turn into an idiom without the usual conjugation
rules.

>Ké namínen i parma úma,
Maybe [or: if] ?by judgements the book ?does not [?!?]

TF: _úma_ as in 'in abundance, teeming with'


I'm glad it was not totally incomprehensible:)

Tamas

> Nán martanyava káno,
I am commander of my destiny

> É feanyo hesto vora.
Indeed my soul's captain always.

- HKF




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Alla Menelion!


--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Menelion Elensuule <menelion@...> wrote:
>
> Mai omentaina, Fióna :-)!
>
> I  will  make  a  full analysis of your Quenya phrasebook, if you want
> (though  I'm  not  an  expert  like  Helge  or  Thorsten, I'm studying
> everything concerning Quenya now).
> Just   for  quick reference now: you have several mistakes when making
> "we" phrases. Note:
> -lwe  -  We  (incl., i.e. thou, I and someone else). It became -lve in
> Exilic Quenya but me personally, I prefer using "auld style" :-).
> -lme - we (excl., i.e. me, someone else, but not thou)
> -ngwe - We (dual, incl., i.e., thou and I)
> -mme - We (dual, excl., i.e. me and some else, but not thou)

I thought that's how I'd done it... did I mix them up somewhere?

> And  more  one  quick  notice:  I'd suggest you to provide one form if
> there are ambiguities. That concerns "-nte" vs. "-lte" for "they" (I,
> like Helge, prefer "-lte"); "-lde" vs. "-lle" for "you (pl.)".
> More comes next :-).
>
> --
> Tenna rato. Menelion Elensúle.
>

How would you suggest I choose?

Fiona

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "elenyona" <sp12@...> wrote:
>
> --- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "dreamingfifi" <elvenswordsmith@> wrote:
>
> > Also, if anyone knows more about Adunaic pronunciation... I did a little
research but found that I was still missing some key points (stress patterns for
example). I didn't do the Aduna translations; Ederchil did (based off of
Thorsten's textbook, IIRC), and I've only done minimal research into it. I can't
really answer for that section beyond the pronunciation.
>
> In his published notes Tolkien seems to have made no direct mentions about the
stress, so one can only guess.

So, I haven't just missed something. How is the pronunciation I suggested
otherwise?

On the occasion of my birthday (or whatever) I hereby announce the
addition of Second Thessalonians to my list of Neo-Quenya New Testament
translations:

http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/nqnt.htm

Why Second Thessalonians before First Thessalonians, you may ask? Well
... I am kind of working backwards from the shorter epistles to the
longer ones.

- HKF

Alla, Fiona!


d> I thought that's how I'd done it... did I mix them up somewhere?

For instance:

Our meeting is a pleasure
[inc] Our meeting is joyful
Omentielm' alassea na [should be: omentielw' — M. E.]
Our meeting is a pleasure
[inc] [2] Our meeting is joyful
Omentielv' alassea na [Should be: omentiengw' — M. E.]

And  further)  Hope  I'll  find  time  to analyse them all in the near
future)

--
Tenna rato. Menelion.

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "dreamingfifi" <elvenswordsmith@...> wrote:
>
> So, I haven't just missed something. How is the pronunciation I suggested
otherwise?

I certainly don't expect people who are familiar with IPA or some global
languages BESIDES English to have problems with the representation provided...
;)

(I noticed one obvious typo in "Elves - Elves - Nimîr - /bi.mi:r/"; another ones
might be the long /a/ in "To the ships! - Ships-wards - Balîkâda! -
/ba.li:.ka:.da/" [sic?]... and the final long vowel in "You did well - You-made
straight - Ki-maggâ izinda - /ki.mag.ga i.zin.da/" - where the PRONUNCIATION
appears to follow the lead of HoME IX: Sauron Defeated more closely [sec.
_unakkha, usapdha_].)

Of course, one might debate some other points in the phrasebook's translations,
for example:

- "Hu-sâphdi ki" : Why _hu-_ instead of _u-_ (< SD:429, 421) for animate
nominative 3 sg. (verb prefix)

- Present tense (or habitual?) formation for triconsonantals: *_-sâphdi_ or
*_-saphudi_ (cf. _Urîd yakalubim_) (?)

- Present tense verb formation for monosyllables - with or without HKF's
a-fortification? (Doesn't Tolkien associate the phenomenon with nouns in
SD:414-15, 438?)

- Why ?_khor_ "lord, ?_thor_ "son" instead of #_khôr_, #_thôr_ (as in the Kings'
names in UT)

Some quickish thoughts there.

- S. P.

The word "minathurie" (using the Old English character 'thorn' for "th")
appears in Tolkien's essay on the river names of Gondor (Vinyar Tengwar 42:17). 
It is there given as part of the name of an (imaginary) Gondorian record titled
"Ondonoore Noomesseron Minathurie". This is translated as "Enquiry into the
Place-names of Gondor" (though more literally it should be translated as "
'enquiry' of Gondor-toponyms"). The word "minathurie" is adequately analyzed in
the editor's note #39 -- though "mina" could only mean "into" (of which it is a
near-exact calque, mi "(with)in" + na "to") and not "in" in its static sense;
and the assumption that the whole word must be an exact calque on Latin
_inquirere_ is perhaps unwarranted.

     No explanation of the form of the base thur- is offered by the editor. He
notes that in The Etymologies, THUR means "surround" or "secrete" (i.e., in the
sense of "hide" or "make secret", not in the biological sense).  Although some
of the etymologies for which THUR is invoked are probably obsolete, it seems to
be preserved in the names Thurin "secret", Thuringud "hidden foe", Thuringwethil
"woman of secret shadow".
     This root, however, makes no sense as a base for the word minathurie: an
"enquiry" cannot be a "making secret", exactly the reverse of its meaning.

     A root of the form THUR is not, however, the only possible basis for the
Quenya base thur-. Quenya *th could arise from either Quendian TH or ST; Quenya
-r- could arise from either R, S, or D.
     There is a root THUS in the Etymologies which, however, means "foul" or
"corrupt"; it was probably made obsolete by the later root THAW "detestable", as
both are invoked to explain the Quenya word saura "bad, foul".  THUS could also
be an extension of THU (as SUS of SU) meaning "breathe".  Neither of these can
explain thur-.

     There are no attested roots of the forms STUR or STUS.  That leaves
STUD/THUD, the root of the Quenya words sunda "root" (as of a tree or a
mountain), sundo "base" or "root" (of a word), and Sindarin thond (<*thundaa)
"root", as in the name of the river Morthond "Blackroot" (Appendix E).
     In the Etymologies this appears as SUD 'base, ground', later altered to STUD
(VT 46:16). As far as the attested derivatives go, the root might as well be
THUD. Although roots beginning with ST occasionally appear with -st- in Quenya
compounds (e.g. Elestirne, Carnistir, aristorna), **-stunda- does not appear in
Tarmasundar "roots of the pillar" -- though I wouldn't really expect it to.
      A noun meaning "root" could come from several possible verbal concepts: it
could be something that "supports" or "upholds", with regard to what is above
it; it could be something which "is at the bottom", with regard to its position;
or it could be something which "penetrates downward" or "delves", with regard to
what is below it.
     The last two would adequately explain the Q verbal stem thur- and the word
minathurie.  An "enquiry" could easily be a "delving into" (or a "rooting
into"!).  It could also, somewhat less probably, be a (looking) "into the base".
In the context of the imaginary essay, the author is looking for the "bases" on
which the Gondorian toponyms are founded.

     I propose, therefore, that thurie (surie) is from *thudijee, the infinitive
of a verbal stem *thud-, meaning something like "go down to the root", from
which the nouns sundo and sunda also derive.

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "elenyona" <sp12@...> wrote:
>
> --- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "dreamingfifi" <elvenswordsmith@> wrote:
> >
> > So, I haven't just missed something. How is the pronunciation I suggested
otherwise?
>
> I certainly don't expect people who are familiar with IPA or some global
languages BESIDES English to have problems with the representation provided...
;)
>
> (I noticed one obvious typo in "Elves - Elves - Nimîr - /bi.mi:r/"; another
ones might be the long /a/ in "To the ships! - Ships-wards - Balîkâda! -
/ba.li:.ka:.da/" [sic?]... and the final long vowel in "You did well - You-made
straight - Ki-maggâ izinda - /ki.mag.ga i.zin.da/" - where the PRONUNCIATION
appears to follow the lead of HoME IX: Sauron Defeated more closely [sec.
_unakkha, usapdha_].)

Agh, silly typos. I fixed them in my files, and will upload the corrections as
soon as the rest of it gets critiqued. The file is massive and a big pain to
upload over and over...

The last one... "you-made-straight" could you explain what you mean? Remember,
I'm not very familiar with Adunaic grammar and don't really know what you're
talking about. I can't tell you why Ederchil used hu- instead of u- either or
any of Ederchil's other translation choices. From my limited understanding of
it, they are variants of eachother and can be used interchangeably.

Alright, I'm going to make some charts because that's how I analyze these
things.

Here's what I did, which is apparently in error:

     +----+-----+
     | pl | du  |
+---+----+-----+
|ex |-mme|-ngwe|
+---+----+-----+
|inc|-lme|-lwe |
+---+----+-----+

Here is what you suggest:

     +----+-----+
     | pl | du  |
+---+----+-----+
|ex |-lme|-mme |
+---+----+-----+
|inc|-lwe|-ngwe|
+---+----+-----+

Here is what Thorsten suggests in his Quenya textbook:

     +----+----------+
     | pl |     du   |
+---+----+----------+
|ex |-mme|
+---+----+----------+
|inc|-lme|-lwe/-ngwe|
+---+----+----------+

And this is what Helge suggests in his Quenya textbook:

     +----+-----------+
     | pl | du        |
+---+----+-----------+
|ex |-lme|-mme       |
+---+----+-----------+
|inc|-lwe|-ngwe/-nque|
+---+----+-----------+

From my understanding, the Gondorians were mixing up the exclusive and
inclusive, and so were Elves of Noldorin parents born amongst Sindarin-speaking
elves who had lost the distinction between inclusive and exclusive as well -
because they were learning it as a second language.

Here's what I think I'll do...

For the Vanyarin dialect:
     +----+-----+
     | pl | du  |
+---+----+-----+
|ex |-lme|-mme |
+---+----+-----+
|inc|-lwe|-ngwe|
+---+----+-----+
For the Exilic/Noldorin dialect: (with instructions for later usage)
     +----+-----+
     | pl | du  |
+---+----+-----+
|ex |-lme|-mme |
+---+----+-----+
|inc|-lve|-ngwe|
+---+----+-----+
For the Gondorian/Nuumenorean dialect:
+----+----+
| pl | du |
+----+----+
|-lme|-mme|
+----+----+

Is this acceptable?

Fiona

Two entirely unrelated thoughts:

      I originally thought that the word !queren -- cited as querend-, and
defined as 'pivot', 'revolving centre' PE17 p. 65 -- was an agental formation
directly from the verbal stem KWER- turn (attested in The Lord of the Rings in
the word nuquerna "upside-down", i.e. "turned down").  But that is surely wrong;
such a form (meaning "one who turns") would have to be !querindo. In light of
the definition "revolving *centre*", I suppose it's more likely that the word
combines the stem quer- and a shortened form of the word ende "center".

      I had assumed that the month name "Ringare" (approximately December) --
which obviously contains ringa "cold" -- meant something like "Cold Day" (on the
model of yestare, mettare, cormare).  This is of course formally possible, but
it faces the basic problem in meaning that a month is not a day; and since a
_ree_ is one entire 24-hour day, one can't even finesse the point by saying that
it means "the month with cold days", i.e., "the month when it is cold (even) in
daylight".
      I wonder, then, whether it might also contain the abstract suffix -(a)re,
seen in almare "blessings, blessedness" (Etymologies-GALA); and perhaps cf. also
fanyare "the skies... the upper airs and clouds" (Markirya) < fanya "cloud". 
The meaning then might be something like "coldness, chill". Almare in
Etymologies is equivalent to almie (with the Quenya suffix -ie, which produces
more-or-less abstract nouns of quality derived from nouns and adjectives (like
English -ness, -hood, -ship, -ity: e.g. taara "high", taarie "height"); so
perhaps ringare is equivalent to !ringie.
      The Sindarin equivalent is not much help; it is "Girithron", girith
"shivering" + raun (<*raanaa) "moon, month".

Aiya meldori eldaiva,

Just for the fun of it here is the first part of Dr. Seuss' Green Eggs and Ham.

some word notes:

Nás mara nin "I like it", literally *"it is good to me" (VT49:30; read mára for
mara?)
Aiména from ména noun "region" (MEN) plus `ai' abstracted from from Aiquen -
anyone.
ehte, egg - plural ehti
hacca - buttocks, hams
yo  "and", "often used between two items (of any part of speech) that were by
nature or custom clearly associated, like the names of spouses (Manwë yo Varda),
or "sword and sheath" (*macil yo vainë), "bow and arrows" (*quinga yo pilindi),
or groups like "Elves and Men" (Eldar yo Fírimor)

LAIQUE EHTI YO HACCA


Ni na sam  I am Sam
Sam ni na 	 Sam I am

Ta Sam-ni-na That Sam-I-am
Ta Sam-ni-na That Sam-I-am!
Lá nás mara nin  I do not like
Ta Sam-ni-na that Sam-I-am


Ma nás mara len Do you like
laique ehti yo hacca green eggs and ham
Sam-ni-na?  Sam-I-am?
Lá nás mara nin I do not like
laique ehti yo hacca. green eggs and ham.



Would you like them Ma meruvalyet
Here or there? Si hya ta?


I would not like them Lá meruvanyet
here or there. Si hya ta.
I would not like them Lá meruvanyet
anywhere.  aiména.
I do not like Lá nás mára nin
green eggs and ham. laique ehti yo hacca.
I do not like them, Lá nás mara nin
Sam-I-am  Sam-ni-na.

Would you like them Ma meruvalyet
in a house? mi coa?
Would you like them Ma meruvalyet
with a mouse? as roa? (dog)


I do not like them Lá meruvanyet
in a house. mi coa.
I do not like them Lá meruvanyet
with a mouse. as roa.

I do not like them Lá meruvanyet
here or there. Si hya ta.
I do not like them Lá meruvanyet
Anywhere.  aiména. (any region)
I do not like green eggs and ham.  Lá nás mara nin laique ehti yo hacca
I do not like them, Sam-I-am.  Lá nás mara nin, Sam-ni-na


Would you eat them Ma  matuvalyet
in a box?            mi colco?
Would you eat them Ma matuvalyet
with a fox? as polco? (pig)

Not in a box. Lá mi colco.
Not with a fox. Lá as polco.
Not in a house. Lá mi coa.
Not with a mouse. Lá as roa.


I would not eat them here or there. Lá matuvanyet si hya ta.
I would not eat them anywhere.            Lá matuvanyet aiména.
I would not eat green eggs and ham. Lá matuvanye Laique ehti yo hacca
I do not like them, Sam-I-am.  Lá nat mara nin, Sam-ni-na.

Would you? Could you?  Ma nauval? Ma poluval?
in a car? 	 mi norolle? (cart)
Eat them! Eat them!  Mata te! Mata te!
Here they are.  Si nar te.


I would not ,  Lá nauvan,
could not, 	 poluvan
in a car. 	 mi norolle.

You may like them.  Ce nás mára len.
You will see.  Cenuval.
You may like them  Ce nás mára len.
in a tree? 	 mi alda?
I would not, could not in a tree. Lá nauvan, poluvan mi alda
Not in a car! You let me be.  Lá mi norolle! Heca le!

I do not like them in a box.  Lá nás mára nin mi colco
I do not like them with a fox  Lá nás mára nin mi polco
I do not like them in a house  Lá nás mára nin mi coa
I do not like them with a mouse            Lá nás mára nin mi roa
I do not like them here or there. Lá nás mára nin mi si hya ta
I do not like them anywhere.  Lá nás mára nin mi aiména
I do not like green eggs and ham. Lá nás mára nin laique ehti you hacca
I do not like them, Sam-I-am.  Lá nás mára nin Sam-ni-na

A train! A train!    Ulumpe! ulumpe! (camel)
A train! A train!    Ulumpe! Ulumpe!
Could you, would you Ma Polil, meril
on a train?          Ulumpesse?

Not on a train! Not in a tree! 	 Lá ulumpesse! Lá aldaresse
Not in a car! Sam! Let me be!  Lá norollesse! Sam! Heca le!
I would not, could not, in a box. Lá nauvan, poluvan, mi colco.
I could not, would not, with a fox. Lá nauvan, poluvan as polco
I will not eat them with a mouse            Lá matuvanyet as roa.
I will not eat them in a house.  Lá matuvanyet mi coa.
I will not eat them here or there. Lá matuvanyet si hya ta.
I will not eat them anywhere.  Lá matuvanyet aiména
I do not like them, Sam-I-am.  Lá nás mára nin Sam-ni-na


Say!  Á queta!
In the dark?  I morniesse?
Here in the dark!  Sina mi i mornie?
Would you, could you, Nauval, poluval,
in the dark?          i morniesse?

I would not, could not, Lá nauvan, poluvan,
in the dark. i morniesse

Would you, could you, Ma nauval, poluval
in the rain? mi mistesse?

On 2012-08-22 17:56, iiipitaka wrote:

> In the Etymologies this appears as SUD 'base,
> ground', later altered to STUD (VT 46:16). As far as
> the attested derivatives go, the root might as well
> be THUD. Although roots beginning with ST
> occasionally appear with -st- in Quenya compounds
> (e.g. Elestirne, Carnistir, aristorna), **-stunda-
> does not appear in Tarmasundar "roots of the pillar"
> -- though I wouldn't really expect it to.

Tolkien may have operated with the idea that
in compounds which were created late in intrafictional
time -- after the operation of the *st > [T] > s / # __
sound change --, words which originally had *st
might be treated the same as words which originally
had *th, perhaps especially if the compound was
created by a Man rather than by an Elf.

This kind of analogy isn't exactly unheard of in
natural languages, especially when loanwords are
involved -- and Quenya was a loan-language for Men!

For example the Low German name _Sweden_ (incidentally
also borrowed into English!) was Latinized as
_Suedia_ or _Suetia_[^1], and the latter form was
'regularly' borrowed into Spanish as _Suecia_,
a Learned form.
Later the word _Sueco_ 'Swedish' was back-formed
from _Suecia_.  It can best be described as a
semi-learned word, as it retrofits a Spanish
sound change to the stem /sweT/ -- only the
wrong one!
In the history of Spanish, Vulgar Latin
/ty/ and /ky/ had indeed merged as (ultimately)
/Ty/, so a stem-final /k/ would indeed change
to /T/ when the /ya/ ending was added to it,
as would /t/ change to /T/ under the same
circumstances.
According to its Germanic and Neo-Latin etymology
the stem of _Suecia_ was of course *//swet//,
not *//swek//, but those who coined _Sueco_
didn't know or didn't care.  Perhaps Tolkien thought
similarly that the Men of Gondor or N/umenor who
coined _minasurie_ similarly didn't know or care that
the etymological root of _surie_ was *//stud//
and not *//thud//!

/melroch

[^1]:   Perhaps the Old Swedish term _Swethjudh_
          'Swedish people' (cf. Tolkien-coined Old
          English _/Eoth/eod_ 'horse-people'!) had
          something to do with the /t/ in _Suetia_
          -- which was BTW often spelled _Suecia_
          in Latin also!

Hi Fiona,

          d> Is this acceptable?

Concerning pure Elvish dialects, yes.  Not  sure about Human dialects, though
(maybe
someone more experienced will tell you about them).

--
Tenna rato. Menelion Elensúle.

Mae g'ovannen, mellyn!

It's been a long time, yet I felt again the nagging need to try my hand at
Quenya composition. And listening to Galadriel's Lament with Marion Zimmer
Bradley's music, I knew what I wished to translate.

From an internal point of view, this makes (some) sense. Though it seems
Galadriel sang in Common Speech, since no understanding issue is mentioned among
the Fellowship, the song might have been a translation of a Quenya original — or
it could have been translated into Quenya at a later stage — as I now will
endeavour to do.

Here is first a line-by-line translation, followed by notes regarding salient
points. I will first try to stay as close as possible to the original. Once it
has been sufficiently proofread, I'll go for a more poetic translation:


I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew:
_Lassion lirnen, malinë lassion, ar malinë lassi tassë oller:_

Of wind I sang, a wind there came and in the branches blew.
_Lirnen súreo, súrë tassë tullë ar imíca olvar súnë._

Beyond the Sun, beyond the Moon, the foam was on the Sea,
_Anar pella, Isil pella, fallë né Airenna,_

And by the strand of Ilmarin there grew a golden Tree.
_Ar ara Ilmarino falassë tás ollë malin' Alda._

Beneath the stars of Ever-eve in Eldamar it shone, [5]
_Nú Oiondúneo eleni Eldamardessë silles,_

In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion.
_Eldamardessë ara Eldaiva Tiriono rambar._

There long the golden leaves have grown upon the branching years.
_Tás andavë malinë lassi olier rambinë loannar._

While here beyond the Sundering Seas now fall the Elven- tears.
_Sívë Ascátala Eari sí lantar Eldarinwë-níri._

O Lórien! The Winter comes, the bare and leafless Day,
_Ai Lórien ! Hrívë tulë, i held' ar lasselór' Aurë,_

The leaves are falling in the stream, the River flows away. [10]
_Lassi lantar mí celumë, i Sírë oasirë._

O Lórien! Too long I have dwelt upon this Hither Shore
_Ai Lórien ! Acc' andavë amárien Sira Hrestanna_

And in a fading crown have twined the golden elanor.
_Ar mir fifírula rië ilyë malina elanar._

But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
_Nó qui ciryaron sí lirin, mana cirya nai ninna tuluva,_

What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?
_Mana cirya nai atacoluva ni atta ta Alatairë ?_

L1:
- there _tassë_, _tás_ (VT49:11)
- to grow _ol-_ (VT45:13): grew _ol-nê_ > _ollë_

L2: in -> among _imíca_, _mici_ (VT43:30)

L3: foam _fallë_ (PHAL-)

L4: by > beside _ara_ (VT49:57)

L5:
- Ever-eve _Oio-andúnë_ > _Oiondúnë_
- to shine _sil-_: shone _sil-nê_ > _sillë_

L7:
- to grow _ol-_ (VT45:13): have grown _olië_
- branching > meshed _rambina_ (VT42:12)

L8:
- Sundering > Breaking-asunder _Ascát-(a)-la_
- while here > as here _sívë_

L9:
- naked, stripped bare _helda_ (SKEL-)
- leafless _lassë-lóra_ (VT45:28)

L10: to flow away _oa-sir-_

L11:
- too _acca_ (PE13:108)
- hither _sira_, _sir_ (VT49:18)

L12:
- to twine _lië_ (LT1:271): have twined _i-lí-ie_ > _ilyë_
- _elanor_ > _elanar_

L13: future conditional expressed as _nai_ + future (PE14:59)

L14:
- to bear back _ata-col-_
- across _atta_ (VT49:32)
- so _ta_ (VT49:12)

Namárië,
Elendil

Ok, here I go again.  This is a "prayer" that I've always liked and on a whim
today thought to see if I could come up with a Quenya equivalent.  Now, I'm
going to post what I came up with and ask that you translate and then critique. 
The logic behind this being that if you can translate it and understand it, then
I got something right.

nan ner
(Mal/nan) ahyapolin
horyaman / mauyan
intyan

Please good Professors, tell me what you think of it.

Hi people, long time no see! I've been wondering about these two words that
appear in Etym, and I have thoughts nobody seems to have postulated.
- First, about _inimeite_ (a Quenya adjective meaning "female"). I think it's
likely to be a misread for _*inimaite_ since Quenya doesn't normally allow _ei_
and it would make more sense morphologically (_in-ima-ite_?)
- Now about _Duveledh_ (a Noldorin compound meaning "dark elf"), I think it
could be composed of _dû_ (a noun meaning "night, darkness") + _eledh_ and that
_v_ should be a lenited _m_ since the primitive form of _dû_ contained an _m_.

Further discussion will be appreciated.

Yours truly. ;)

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, GH Chinoy <ghcfilter@...> wrote:
>
> Tangentially, are there decent recordings of people pronouncing
> sindarin/quenya words?
>
> Would recordings of pronunciations be the purview of the Tolkien Estate?
>
> Thanks,
>
> H
>
I know quite a few websites with sound samples of Tolkienian languages, but as
far as I know some of them are no longer available. The ones that still work
are:
- Sindanórië (www.sindanoorie.net), Roman Rausch's website - Contains recordings
of some of his poems
- Ardhon Ellammath (http://www.ellammath.de/), Florian "Lothenon" Dombach's
website - Contains sound samples of some of Tolkien's texts
- Glaemscrafu (http://www.jrrvf.com/~glaemscrafu/texts/index-a.htm), a Tolkien
website run by Bertrand Bellet and Benjamin Babut - Contains sound samples of
most of the languages of Middle-Earth
- Petri Tikka's YouTube account (ondotambaro)

I hope this helps. ;)

Aiya Algoroth,

Here is my translation attempt:

I am a man
But change I can
I must
I suppose

Not sure what it means...

Evandil

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Algoroth Draconis" <algoroth_draconis@...>
wrote:
>
> Ok, here I go again.  This is a "prayer" that I've always liked and on a whim
today thought to see if I could come up with a Quenya equivalent.  Now, I'm
going to post what I came up with and ask that you translate and then critique. 
The logic behind this being that if you can translate it and understand it, then
I got something right.
>
> nan ner
> (Mal/nan) ahyapolin
> horyaman / mauyan
> intyan
>
> Please good Professors, tell me what you think of it.
>

Elendil,

Elmendinqua ar vanima. Hanta le carmalyan.






--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Damien" <elendil.voronda@...> wrote:
>
> Mae g'ovannen, mellyn!
>
> It's been a long time, yet I felt again the nagging need to try my hand at
Quenya composition. And listening to Galadriel's Lament with Marion Zimmer
Bradley's music, I knew what I wished to translate.
>
> From an internal point of view, this makes (some) sense. Though it seems
Galadriel sang in Common Speech, since no understanding issue is mentioned among
the Fellowship, the song might have been a translation of a Quenya original — or
it could have been translated into Quenya at a later stage — as I now will
endeavour to do.
>
> Here is first a line-by-line translation, followed by notes regarding salient
points. I will first try to stay as close as possible to the original. Once it
has been sufficiently proofread, I'll go for a more poetic translation:
>
>
> I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew:
> _Lassion lirnen, malinë lassion, ar malinë lassi tassë oller:_
>
> Of wind I sang, a wind there came and in the branches blew.
> _Lirnen súreo, súrë tassë tullë ar imíca olvar súnë._
>
> Beyond the Sun, beyond the Moon, the foam was on the Sea,
> _Anar pella, Isil pella, fallë né Airenna,_
>
> And by the strand of Ilmarin there grew a golden Tree.
> _Ar ara Ilmarino falassë tás ollë malin' Alda._
>
> Beneath the stars of Ever-eve in Eldamar it shone, [5]
> _Nú Oiondúneo eleni Eldamardessë silles,_
>
> In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion.
> _Eldamardessë ara Eldaiva Tiriono rambar._
>
> There long the golden leaves have grown upon the branching years.
> _Tás andavë malinë lassi olier rambinë loannar._
>
> While here beyond the Sundering Seas now fall the Elven- tears.
> _Sívë Ascátala Eari sí lantar Eldarinwë-níri._
>
> O Lórien! The Winter comes, the bare and leafless Day,
> _Ai Lórien ! Hrívë tulë, i held' ar lasselór' Aurë,_
>
> The leaves are falling in the stream, the River flows away. [10]
> _Lassi lantar mí celumë, i Sírë oasirë._
>
> O Lórien! Too long I have dwelt upon this Hither Shore
> _Ai Lórien ! Acc' andavë amárien Sira Hrestanna_
>
> And in a fading crown have twined the golden elanor.
> _Ar mir fifírula rië ilyë malina elanar._
>
> But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
> _Nó qui ciryaron sí lirin, mana cirya nai ninna tuluva,_
>
> What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?
> _Mana cirya nai atacoluva ni atta ta Alatairë ?_
>
> L1:
> - there _tassë_, _tás_ (VT49:11)
> - to grow _ol-_ (VT45:13): grew _ol-nê_ > _ollë_
>
> L2: in -> among _imíca_, _mici_ (VT43:30)
>
> L3: foam _fallë_ (PHAL-)
>
> L4: by > beside _ara_ (VT49:57)
>
> L5:
> - Ever-eve _Oio-andúnë_ > _Oiondúnë_
> - to shine _sil-_: shone _sil-nê_ > _sillë_
>
> L7:
> - to grow _ol-_ (VT45:13): have grown _olië_
> - branching > meshed _rambina_ (VT42:12)
>
> L8:
> - Sundering > Breaking-asunder _Ascát-(a)-la_
> - while here > as here _sívë_
>
> L9:
> - naked, stripped bare _helda_ (SKEL-)
> - leafless _lassë-lóra_ (VT45:28)
>
> L10: to flow away _oa-sir-_
>
> L11:
> - too _acca_ (PE13:108)
> - hither _sira_, _sir_ (VT49:18)
>
> L12:
> - to twine _lië_ (LT1:271): have twined _i-lí-ie_ > _ilyë_
> - _elanor_ > _elanar_
>
> L13: future conditional expressed as _nai_ + future (PE14:59)
>
> L14:
> - to bear back _ata-col-_
> - across _atta_ (VT49:32)
> - so _ta_ (VT49:12)
>
> Namárië,
> Elendil
>

Here are my thoughts, such as they are.

For inimeite, the masculine version in the Etymologies is hanuvoite
(Ety:INI), whose earlier form is anuvoite in Early Qenya (QL:31). The
suffix -voite is a common adjectival suffix in QL, so likely hanuvoite =
hanu + voite. Tolkien could have conceived of -meite as a feminine
variant of -voite, since o/e variation for masculine/feminine was common
in Eldarin.

Even though -ei- is not a valid dipthong in Quenya, it could be a
primitive form instead of a misspelling or misreading.

Early on, the primitive dipthong -ei- could develop into either -í- or
-ai- (PE19:25), but later the development of primitive -ei- was to -í-
or -é- (PE19:64, 106), depending on primitive stress patterns. For
example, primitive *neite > níte (Ety:NEI).

If I had to guess, I'd pick inimíte as the "modern" form of inimeite,
perhaps further reduced to immíte by the Quenya syncope. The alternate
inimaite looks to me too much like "female-handed".

Your theory for Noldorin Duveledh sounds probable, to me. However, in
Sindarin, this word is likely replaced by Morben (WJ:362) and Mornedhel
(WJ:377).

On 8/30/12 8:02 AM, rikkuras_del_mas_alla wrote:
>
> Hi people, long time no see! I've been wondering about these two words
> that appear in Etym, and I have thoughts nobody seems to have postulated.
> - First, about _inimeite_ (a Quenya adjective meaning "female"). I
> think it's likely to be a misread for _*inimaite_ since Quenya doesn't
> normally allow _ei_ and it would make more sense morphologically
> (_in-ima-ite_?)
> - Now about _Duveledh_ (a Noldorin compound meaning "dark elf"), I
> think it could be composed of _dû_ (a noun meaning "night, darkness")
> + _eledh_ and that _v_ should be a lenited _m_ since the primitive
> form of _dû_ contained an _m_.
>
> Further discussion will be appreciated.
>
> Yours truly. ;)
>
>



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