elfling : Messages : 36226-36255 of 36565

Thank you very much for your answer.
I've been mainly interested in Quenya for now, but recently I was toying with
some modes for Italian. I made up several, in fact, and while testing them I
came up with those questions.
Overlapping multiple diacritics is something that the various electronic fonts
don't like much, and I use mainly two "smart" unicode fonts, Tengwar Formal CSUR
and Tengwar Telcontar which I found here
http://freetengwar.sourceforge.net/

While Telcontar allows me to place vowel-theta and nasalized/labialized mark in
both orders, the smart rendering of Formal CSUR forces he w-tilde to go over
the vowel-theta (in a shape that is rather awkward), and the nasalised bar to go
under it. So I wondered if there was some rule governing these placements.

Thanks again,
Francesco

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Måns <at@...> wrote:

> Yes: in DTS 58 Tolkien writes "Rivendell" with tehtar above the preceding
tengwar, and with the nasal bar above <ando> to denote _nd_.

> Yes, in DTS 49 we have the word _edwen_ where the first /e/ tehta is written
beneath the horizontal line of the inverted tilde (above <ando>). There might be
some other example which escapes my memory at the moment.

> Nonetheless, it is fairly common for two tehtar (which is the same as
"diacritics") to both be written above or below the same tengwa.

> I think the distinction to be made is not between downward-pointing s-hooks
and horizontal s-hooks, but between rightward (extending rightwards from the
rightmost lúva) and leftward s-hooks (extending diagonally down-leftwards from
the rightmost lúva). Most other variations I think are free variants.
>
> As you point out, the rightward s-hook would be cumbersome inside words.
Unless I am mistaken, it is only attested at the end of words. The only s-hook
attested inside words, if memory serves, is the leftward one used below <quesse>
to transcribe "x" in words like "explanations".

Reply | Messages in this Topic (3)

#36227

From: "winterhavik" <winterhavik@...>
Date: Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:21 am
Subject: Re: Past tense in -ine

winterhavik

Hello Helge,

An interesting idea. I couldn't comment on the sound changes from qenya, not
having studied it that area at all. However, I do think that 'l�line" is a
beautiful quenya word, and that the Professor had an uncanny ability to create
beauiful words.  Perhaps the conjectured versions you have coined could be
simply simplified as 'naitine' and 'queletine' or even infixed as  'quelinte'
(as opposed to whatever the past tense of 'quel-' would be'?  (Just having fun-
its all speculation!)  In any tradeoff, I think it is also good to keep things
as simple and intuitive as possible for increasing the number of Neo-Quenya
readers and writers.

EW



--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@...>
wrote:
>
> I have been trying to churn out some more Neo-Quenya New Testament
> material, and I have a vague ambition of completing the non-Pauline
> letters this spring.
>
> In this process I have been wondering about some verbs I 'needed', but
> which are only attested in the earliest Qenya material:
>
> naitya- 'put to shame', pa.t. na�ksine (QL:65)
>
> qeletya- 'rot', pa.t. qeleksine (QL:76)
>
> The past tense formations may seem strange within the framework of later
> Quenya, and in some earlier writings of mine I have disregarded them,
> instead giving _naitya_ the straightforward past tense *_naityane_.
>
> Perhaps this was a bit rash. In late (post-LotR) writings we have the
> verb _lelya-_ 'appear, attract, enchant' with past tense _l�line_
> (PE17:151).
>
> Could this be a latter-day example of the 'same' kind of -ya verb, which
> in the past tense exchanges the ending -ya for -ine? This is a peculiar
> form, and I don't know how Tolkien imagined it to have originated, but
> if so we have no right to reject similar formations from the Qenya
> Lexicon as obsolete.
>
> A verb like _qeletya-_would represent *_kwelek-j�_, with the normal
> development from _kj_ to _ty_. In the past tense, where we have the
> ending -ine instead, _kj_ did not occur and _k_ did not become _t_. In
> the Qenya pa.t. form _qeleksine_ Tolkien seems to assume that _k_ before
> _i_ becomes _ks_ (like _ti_ is said to become _ts_, QL:23), or is there
> really a longer ending _-sine_ involved?
>
> In later Quenya, K does not seem to become KS before the vowel _i_
> (compare such a pl. form as _filiki_ 'birds', entry PHILIK in Etym).
>
> Might a past tense form like _qeleksine_ be 'updated' as *_quelekine_
> and assumed to belong to the same class as _l�line_? And likewise
> *_naikine_ for _na�ksine_ as the pa.t. of _naitya-_?
>
> - HKF
>

#36228

From: "Ceilidh Chaos" <faerieceilidh@...>
Date: Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:24 pm
Subject: Trying to translate something

highprincess...

Sic Transit Gloria Mundi
Thus passes the Glory of the world

I think in Quenya it would be Sin lenweta alcar Ilu

I am planning to get a tattoo and I want it to be right

#36229

From: "Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@...>
Date: Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:44 pm
Subject: Re: Past tense in -ine

helge.fauskanger@...

EW wrote, regarding my theory that QL forms like qeletya- 'rot', pa.t.
qeleksine (QL:76) are paralleled by such a latter-day Quenya verb as
_lelya-_ "attract", pa.t. _l�line_.
  >

      > An interesting idea. I couldn't comment on the sound changes from
     qenya, not having studied it that area at all. However, I do think
     that 'l�line" is a beautiful quenya word, and that the Professor had
     an uncanny ability to create beauiful words. Perhaps the conjectured
     versions you have coined could be simply simplified as 'naitine' and
     'queletine' or even infixed as 'quelinte' (as opposed to whatever
     the past tense of 'quel-' would be'? (Just having fun- its all
     speculation!) In any tradeoff, I think it is also good to keep
     things as simple and intuitive as possible for increasing the number
     of Neo-Quenya readers and writers.


Yes, we don't have to make things more difficult than necessary, but
since the basic purpose of the exercise is to use Quenya, and Quenya is
defined by Tolkien's ideas about it, we cannot simplify matters beyond
what Tolkien did himself. Take the verb "to know": If we give _ista-_
the pa.t. *_istane_, the pattern would become "regular" and more easily
to learn, but then it is no longer correct Quenya, since Tolkien
definitely wanted the pa.t. to be irregular _sinte_ (a form that turns
up already in the QL and was never abandoned).

I do think, however, that we can allow ourselves some freedom when
adapting the very earliest material for use within a form of the
language that is meant to approximate Tolkien's late ideas. Patterns
with no parallel whatsoever in the later system are probably best
avoided, or gently transferred to some other class.

As for past tenses like _qeleksine_ from _qeletya-_,  it is possible
that it should be associated with a "Qenya" class of -ya verbs that turn
this ending into -tine in the preterite, such as _panya-_ "to plan",
pa.t. _pantine_! (Apparently *quelektine_ has become _queleksine_; the
Qenya Phonology comments on how _-ti_ can go to _-si_). This "-ya
becoming -tine" system seems to have been completely abandoned in later
Quenya, so perhaps we should allow ourselves to say simply
*_queletyane_  for "rotted".

_Lelya-_ "attract", pa.t. _l�line_, remains in a class all by itself in
late material. Notice the lengthening of the stem-vowel. I think
Tolkien's idea is that *_lelyine_ is simplified, with compensatory
lengthening when a consonant disappeared.

By where does this ending _-ine_ come from in the first place? The most
basic past tense ending is _-ne_, and *_lelyane_ would in any case have
been distinct from the pa.t. of _lelya-_ "go" (which is _lende_).

- HKF


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#36230

From: Paul Strack <pfstrack@...>
Date: Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:24 am
Subject: Re: Trying to translate something

pfstrack

Here are my suggestions.

On Mar 17, 2012, at 8:24 AM, "Ceilidh Chaos" <faerieceilidh@...> wrote:
> Sic Transit Gloria Mundi
> Thus passes the Glory of the world
>
> I think in Quenya it would be Sin lenweta alcar Ilu
>
I agree on sin and alcar.

For "pass" I would use auta as in _auta i lóme_ "the night is passing"
(Silmarillion). The verb lenweta seems to have a connotation of "depart" or an
active "leaving", which I don't think you are aiming for here.

For "World" Tolkien used several different words with different connotations.
Ilu has the connotation of "everything, the whole universe" including even God,
which I am guessing is too broad.

Another possibility is Ea, literally "It is", which is the whole of Creation but
excluding the divine realm. You might also use Arda, literally "the Realm",
which is the region controlled by the Valar, sometimes referring to Earth but
technically including the entire solar system.

I would suggest Ambar, which literally means the "Habitation" or "Settlement",
that is the world as the dwelling place of Elves and Men. Other words meaning
"world", such as Endor, seem to specifically refer to Middle Earth.

Since the Glory is an attribute of the World, the word Ambar should have the
attributive case ending -va, which becomes -wa after a consonant.

Also, I would give use a definite article i before alcar.

Thus:

_Sin auta i Alcar Ambarwa_

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#36231

From: Menelion Elensuule <menelion@...>
Date: Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:33 am
Subject: Re: Trying to translate something

menelion@...

Hi,

CC> Sic Transit Gloria Mundi
CC> Thus passes the Glory of the world

CC> I think in Quenya it would be Sin lenweta alcar Ilu

Maybe the scholars will correct me, but I'd say "Sie auta i alcar Ambaro".

                 si� adv. "thus" (VT43:24, VT49:18)
                                                   auta- (1) vb. "go away, leave"
i - "the", definite article
Alcar "glory, radiance, brilliance"
Ambar "Earth, world" + -o (genitive case).


--
Menelion Elens�le.

#36232

From: "_olam" <netzakh@...>
Date: Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:40 pm
Subject: Re: Past tense in -ine

_olam

Is it possible that Qenya *_kji_ > _ksi_, whereas *_ki_ > _ki_?

Michael

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@...>
wrote:
> In this process I have been wondering about some verbs I 'needed', but
> which are only attested in the earliest Qenya material:
>
> naitya- 'put to shame', pa.t. na�ksine (QL:65)
>
> qeletya- 'rot', pa.t. qeleksine (QL:76)
>
...
> A verb like _qeletya-_would represent *_kwelek-j�_, with the normal
> development from _kj_ to _ty_. In the past tense, where we have the
> ending -ine instead, _kj_ did not occur and _k_ did not become _t_. In
> the Qenya pa.t. form _qeleksine_ Tolkien seems to assume that _k_ before
> _i_ becomes _ks_ (like _ti_ is said to become _ts_, QL:23), or is there
> really a longer ending _-sine_ involved?
>
> In later Quenya, K does not seem to become KS before the vowel _i_
> (compare such a pl. form as _filiki_ 'birds', entry PHILIK in Etym).
>
> Might a past tense form like _qeleksine_ be 'updated' as *_quelekine_
> and assumed to belong to the same class as _l�line_? And likewise
> *_naikine_ for _na�ksine_ as the pa.t. of _naitya-_?
>
> - HKF
>

#36233

From: TF <percival64@...>
Date: Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:06 pm
Subject: Re: Trying to translate something

percival64

Hello,

I'd put it as


S�ve vanya alcar Ambareva.

_vanya_ could be replaced by _auta_; similarly, _Il�va_ could stand for
_Ambareva_.

�
Thomas Ferencz


Let's discuss Eldarin languages - http://aglardh.middangeard.org.uk
Tolkien Wiktionary - http://www.eldarinwiki.com


________________________________
  From: Ceilidh Chaos <faerieceilidh@...>
To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 3:24 PM
Subject: [elfling] Trying to translate something

Sic Transit Gloria Mundi
Thus passes the Glory of the world

I think in Quenya it would be Sin lenweta alcar Ilu

I am planning to get a tattoo and I want it to be right



------------------------------------

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#36234

From: "Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@...>
Date: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:43 pm
Subject: Re: Trying to translate something

helge.fauskanger@...

> Sic Transit Gloria Mundi
  > Thus passes the Glory of the world

  > I think in Quenya it would be Sin lenweta alcar Ilu

I would add a genitive ending to _ilu_ (i.e. _Iluo_), otherwise it could
work.

I would tend to use other words, though: _Sie auta ambaro alcar_,
probably (nice alliteration, hm?)

- HKF

#36235

From: "wigdawei" <wigdawei@...>
Date: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:29 am
Subject: Sindarin unconquerable

wigdawei

Ertherel?

Thank you for your time.

- David

Reply | Messages in this Topic (1)

#36236

From: "meglimorco" <fromen@...>
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:33 pm
Subject: Re: Past tense in -ine

meglimorco

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@...>
wrote:

> _Lelya-_ "attract", pa.t. _l�line_, remains in a class all by itself in
> late material. Notice the lengthening of the stem-vowel. I think
> Tolkien's idea is that *_lelyine_ is simplified, with compensatory
> lengthening when a consonant disappeared.
>
> By where does this ending _-ine_ come from in the first place? The most
> basic past tense ending is _-ne_, and *_lelyane_ would in any case have
> been distinct from the pa.t. of _lelya-_ "go" (which is _lende_).

Perhaps _l�line_ can be construed as a strong past tense < *_lely-ne_ with
change of interconsonantal -y- to syllabic short -i- (cf. PE 19, p.100). The
lengthening would then be due to analogy, as generally the stressed syllable of
a strong past tense is long.

<> Bj�rn

#36237

From: "Roman" <aranwe@...>
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:11 pm
Subject: Re: Past tense in -ine

rausch_roman

>By where does this ending _-ine_ come from in the first
>place? The most basic past tense ending is _-ne_, and
>*_lelyane_ would in any case have been distinct from
>the pa.t. of _lelya-_ "go" (which is _lende_).

Maybe _Balj(a)n�r�_ 'Valian folk' > _Valin�re_ (PE17:43) is relevant here: If
the vowel in CjaC drops for some reason, the result is apparently CiC, so that
_l�line_ may actually derive from _*lelyane_.
(The etymology _Balj(a)n�r�_ seems to be a re-interpretation, though, as we find
pl. _Vali_ + _n�re_ otherwise (Etym, PE17:74, PE18:56).)

#36238

From: "Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@...>
Date: Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:53 pm
Subject: Neologisms required

helge.fauskanger@...

I am trying to produce a Neo-Quenya version of a string of New Testament
letters, and I have drafted a substantial amount of text, but here an
there I encounter "missing" words that require neologisms.

Here are three examples. Working from available Tolkien roots, can
anyone think of plausible derivations for the following?

1. "Serious" (grave, not joking, etc.)

2. "Marrow" -- yeah, I guess I can speak of *_axomitya_ "bone-interior",
but can anyone imagine something better?

3. "Tablet" (like for the Ten Commandments)

- HKF

#36239

From: Phillip Wayne <exuyangi@...>
Date: Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:20 pm
Subject: Re: Neologisms required

exuyangi

Perhaps we can go back to actual Indo-European roots (IE). Orginally
*mosgo- it mean brain, not marrow. Perhaps from anything inside of a bone.
Given that, I like **axomitya as pretty reasonable.

On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 6:53 PM, Helge K. Fauskanger <
helge.fauskanger@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> I am trying to produce a Neo-Quenya version of a string of New Testament
> letters, and I have drafted a substantial amount of text, but here an
> there I encounter "missing" words that require neologisms.
>
> Here are three examples. Working from available Tolkien roots, can
> anyone think of plausible derivations for the following?
>
> 1. "Serious" (grave, not joking, etc.)
>
> 2. "Marrow" -- yeah, I guess I can speak of *_axomitya_ "bone-interior",
> but can anyone imagine something better?
>
> 3. "Tablet" (like for the Ten Commandments)
>
> - HKF
>
>



--
Often wrong, never in doubt (Ivy Baker Priest, Green Grows the Ivy, 1958)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#36240

From: "meglimorco" <fromen@...>
Date: Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:01 pm
Subject: Re: Neologisms required

meglimorco

> Here are three examples. Working from available Tolkien roots, can
> anyone think of plausible derivations for the following?
>
> 1. "Serious" (grave, not joking, etc.)

According to GL the Goldogrin _lung_ 'heavy' can also mean 'grave, serious'.
Maybe the same could apply to Q _lunga_.

<> Bj�rn

#36241

From: TF <percival64@...>
Date: Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:50 am
Subject: Re: Neologisms required

percival64

1. "Serious" (grave, not joking, etc.)

Well, there's always _lumna_. Serious and grave all go back to 'heavy' so by
extension _lunga_ is a possibility. The QL has _talanda, talanya_"burdened,
weighed down, sad". The Gnomish Lexicon also has _lung_ "heavy, grave, serious",
so the concept is the same.

2. "Marrow" -- yeah, I guess I can speak of *_axomitya_ "bone-interior",
but can anyone imagine something better?

Perhaps *ax(o)ende 'heart of bone'; axopirya 'sap of bone' (if it's literally
the bone marrow you're after)



3. "Tablet" (like for the Ten Commandments)

I'd propose *palma from PAL-; cf. _palme_ "surface" etc.

�
Thomas Ferencz


Let's discuss Eldarin languages - http://aglardh.middangeard.org.uk
Tolkien Wiktionary - http://www.eldarinwiki.com


________________________________
  From: Helge K. Fauskanger <helge.fauskanger@...>
To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 4:53 PM
Subject: [elfling] Neologisms required

I am trying to produce a Neo-Quenya version of a string of New Testament
letters, and I have drafted a substantial amount of text, but here an
there I encounter "missing" words that require neologisms.

Here are three examples. Working from available Tolkien roots, can
anyone think of plausible derivations for the following?

1. "Serious" (grave, not joking, etc.)

2. "Marrow" -- yeah, I guess I can speak of *_axomitya_ "bone-interior",
but can anyone imagine something better?

3. "Tablet" (like for the Ten Commandments)

- HKF


------------------------------------

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#36242

From: Luk� Nov�k <lukas.novak@...>
Date: Sun Apr 1, 2012 6:54 pm
Subject: Re: Neologisms required

lukas.novak@...

TF scripsit:

> 3. "Tablet" (like for the Ten Commandments)

If they are the Mosaic tablets, why not speak just
of "ondor"?

Lukas

#36243

From: Melroch <melroch@...>
Date: Mon Apr 2, 2012 6:02 pm
Subject: Re: Neologisms required

melroch

On 2012-03-30 11:50, TF wrote:
> Perhaps *ax(o)ende 'heart of bone'; axopirya 'sap of bone' (if it's literally
the bone marrow you're after)

Somehow this doesn't seem credible to me as a *compound*.
I mean there *would* probably be a simple word for 'marrow',
and _pirya axo(ron)(*)_ *as a phrase* or a kenning strikes
me as more credible than a compound.

#36244

From: Menelion Elensuule <menelion@...>
Date: Mon Apr 2, 2012 6:13 pm
Subject: Re: Neologisms required

menelion@...

Hello,


>> 3. "Tablet" (like for the Ten Commandments)

LN> If they are the Mosaic tablets, why not speak just
LN> of "ondor"?

Just stones? Then it wouldn't be meaningful enough. We don't say "fruits" when
we want to say "apples", in most of cases, that's what I mean).

--
Tenna rato,
Menelion Elens�le

#36245

From: "Roman" <aranwe@...>
Date: Mon Apr 2, 2012 8:31 pm
Subject: Re: Neologisms required

rausch_roman

>1. "Serious" (grave, not joking, etc.)

This is attested in Sindarin as _�lal_ 'not laughing, serious' (PE18:144). In
Quenya it might be _*�lalya_.

>*_axomitya_ "bone-interior"

That may not be far-fetched at all, considering Greek _enkephalos_ 'brain', for
example, lit. 'interior of the head'.

>I'd propose *palma from PAL-; cf. _palme_ "surface" etc.

_*Palma_ was actually my reconstruction for 'table', considering QL _palukta_
and the fact that PAL- survives into the Etymologies with a similar meaning, but
this kind of suffix doesn't. Maybe for 'tablet' one should add a diminutive
ending: _*palmanke_?

#36246

From: Menelion Elensuule <menelion@...>
Date: Tue Apr 3, 2012 9:03 am
Subject: Re: Re: Neologisms required

menelion@...

Hello,


R> _*Palma_ was actually my reconstruction for 'table', considering
R> QL _palukta_ and the fact that PAL- survives into the Etymologies
R> with a similar meaning, but this kind of suffix doesn't. Maybe for
R> 'tablet' one should add a diminutive ending: _*palmanke_?

In Helge's dictionary we have:

         sarno noun �table� (QL:82)

That seems to be related to sar (sard-/sarn-), stone.

--
Tenna rato,
Menelion Elensule

#36247

From: Menelion Elensuule <menelion@...>
Date: Sun Apr 8, 2012 8:19 pm
Subject: Hlassen? Past tense questions

menelion@...

Hello everyone,
In Helge's translation of the Johannine corpus we see the form "Hlassen". For
example, John 8:26:
26 Samin rimbe natali quetien ar namien pa le. Mal ye ni-mentane sanda na, ar i
nati yar _hlassen_ sello quetan i mardesse.�
(The underline is mine).
As we can see in the wordlist (or dictionary, as I prefer to call it :-)), the
verb "to hear" is hlar-.
Is this an irregular past tense (the form should actually be *hlarnen)?
And if it's so, why is it formed in a such way?
More than that, it seems to be a problem with the -ta verbs. In John 13:22, we
read:
22 I hilmor _yenter_ quen i exenna, la hanyala pa man quentes.
(The underline is mine again).
"looked on one another". In the dictionary we see:
yeta- vb. "look at" (LT1:262)
Then, the past tense should be *yetaner, shouldn't it?
Maybe is there a rule I'm not keeping in mind?
Thanks a lot!

--
With best regards,
Menelion Elensule.

#36248

From: "Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@...>
Date: Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:56 pm
Subject: Re: Hlassen? Past tense questions

helge.fauskanger@...

Menelion Elensuule questions my use of _hlasse_ as the past tense of
_hlar-_ "hear".

This is actually based on information that has appeared relatively
recently, and I confess that I have yet to produce a comprehensive
description of my current conventions.

The point is that the original root is SLAS. Hence _hlar-_ goes back on
older _hlaz-_, intervocalic S becoming Z and then R.

The ancient past tense *_slanse_  "heared" should however evolve into
*_hlasse_.We have never seen this exact form, but compare _hriz-_ "to
snow" from the root SRIS, with past tense _hrinse_ and apparently
_hrisse_ by assimilation (PE17:168).

I believe that in Parma 18 or 19, there is even an explicit statement to
the effect that primary verbs derived from stems that originally ended
in -S are to have past tense forms in _-sse_ (assimilated from the old
_-nse_ that arose by nasal infixion). I can't find the reference right
now -- anyone?

According to PE19:89, _ns_ assimilated to _ss_ even where S comes from
earlier TH (_pase_ "smooths" from root PATH had the analogical pa.t.
_panse_, but this "soon" became _passe_).

_Hlar-_ , "hear", past tense *_hlasse_, would probably be the most
frequent verb of this class.

Another question has to to with my use_yente_ as the past tense of
_y�ta-_ "look at". Honestly, nobody can rule out the more
straightforward form *_y�tane_! Traditionally that is the form I would
have used myself, but then we had the new example of _h�ta-_ "curse"
with past tense _hunte_ (PE17:149). If we let _y�ta-_ go according to
the same pattern, it would land us on _yente_, but don't take either
form too seriously.

- HKF

#36249

From: "winterhavik" <winterhavik@...>
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:36 am
Subject: Two words

winterhavik

I was playing around with what uninflected Quenya might look like in comparison
to inflected while translating the book of Jonah (incidentally  the book Tolkien
had a part in translating when he worked on the Jerusalem Bible). I came upon
two interesting words and wanted to ask Elflingers about them:

lanna prep. "athwart" (PE17:65)

This word `athwart' is defined as
	 preposition
	 1 from side to side of; across: a long counter thrown athwart the entranceway.
	 2 in opposition to; counter to: these statistics run sharply athwart
conventional presumptions.

Could this be used in the second sense to highlight the meaning of "against' as
when Jonah is told to `cry out against' Ninevah. Can a preposition be used that
way?

The quenya word for shout is `yama', but I noticed  an interesting word in
Sindarin for "cry out": nalla. In HKF's word list we find
nalla ??? (Narqelion)
nall�ma, nallama noun "echo" (LAM). The initial element may be nan- "back",
hence "back-sound", sound that comes back (cf. l�ma).

What do you Sindarin researchers say.  How did Nalla fare in Tolkien's
conceptions from Narqelion onwards? Was it ever a part of quenya conceptual
phases?

Anyway here are the first few sentences in Jonah, along with a silly uninflected
version.

The inflected version:

1 I quetta Eruva t�le Yonanna, Anon Amittaiva, quetala: " 2 � orta ar lelya
Ninevenna, i osto t�ra, ar yama lanna ta, an epe Inye ulquinto or�rtie.  Mal
Yona norne Herullo ar Tarsisenna lende.


The uninflected version

1. I quetta va Heru t�le ana Yona anon va Amittai quetala:
2. � orta ar lelya ana Nineva i osto taura, ar nalla lanna ta, an i uxare tanya
epe ni ut�lie.
3 Mal Yona norne ollo Heru ar na Tarsis lende.

English:

Jonah 1:1 �� The word of the LORD came to Jonah son of Amittai: 2 "Go to the
great city of Nineveh and cry out against it, because its wickedness has come up
before me."

Jonah 1:3 �� But Jonah ran away from the LORD and headed for Tarshish.

Reply | Messages in this Topic (1)

#36250

From: Menelion Elensuule <menelion@...>
Date: Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:04 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Hlassen? Past tense questions

andre.polyka...

Hello,
Thanks a lot for your answer!
Actually, concerning _ns_ in our name, I wrote about it: when we took it, we had
no idea neither about th>s nor about ns>ss. However, we would like to keep it
(maybe as archaic) since we are a bit famous here in our environment by this
name :-). And yet there are forms like "insa" (itself), so this cluster seems
not to be totally disallowed like, say, tn or cm.
Thanks!

Menelion.


HKF> Menelion Elensuule questions my use of _hlasse_ as the past tense of
HKF> _hlar-_ "hear".

HKF> This is actually based on information that has appeared relatively
HKF> recently, and I confess that I have yet to produce a comprehensive
HKF> description of my current conventions.

HKF> The point is that the original root is SLAS. Hence _hlar-_ goes back on
HKF> older _hlaz-_, intervocalic S becoming Z and then R.

HKF> The ancient past tense *_slanse_  "heared" should however evolve into
HKF> *_hlasse_.We have never seen this exact form, but compare _hriz-_ "to
HKF> snow" from the root SRIS, with past tense _hrinse_ and apparently
HKF> _hrisse_ by assimilation (PE17:168).

HKF> I believe that in Parma 18 or 19, there is even an explicit statement to
HKF> the effect that primary verbs derived from stems that originally ended
HKF> in -S are to have past tense forms in _-sse_ (assimilated from the old
HKF> _-nse_ that arose by nasal infixion). I can't find the reference right
HKF> now -- anyone?

HKF> According to PE19:89, _ns_ assimilated to _ss_ even where S comes from
HKF> earlier TH (_pase_ "smooths" from root PATH had the analogical pa.t.
HKF> _panse_, but this "soon" became _passe_).

HKF> _Hlar-_ , "hear", past tense *_hlasse_, would probably be the most
HKF> frequent verb of this class.

HKF> Another question has to to with my use_yente_ as the past tense of
HKF> _y�ta-_ "look at". Honestly, nobody can rule out the more
HKF> straightforward form *_y�tane_! Traditionally that is the form I would
HKF> have used myself, but then we had the new example of _h�ta-_ "curse"
HKF> with past tense _hunte_ (PE17:149). If we let _y�ta-_ go according to
HKF> the same pattern, it would land us on _yente_, but don't take either
HKF> form too seriously.

HKF> - HKF

#36251

From: "Sarah" <imabiah@...>
Date: Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:03 am
Subject: name my house!

imabiah

Mellyn nin ~
It's been a while since I posted here, and longer since I made my brief foray
into the study of Sindarin. My family recently purchased a home near the ocean -
it will be the last home we ever own, God willing. I would like to name it in
Sindarin, but I'm having trouble coming up with anything. I thought of Mithlond,
as it is kind of our last stop before going Into the West, if you will. Also
thought of Anna O Adar, as this place is very much a gift from God. Could be
Aearen-annon - gate to the sea?
I'm open to suggestions!
Abiah

Reply | Messages in this Topic (3)

#36252

From: "meglimorco" <fromen@...>
Date: Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:36 pm
Subject: Re: Hlassen? Past tense questions

meglimorco

> The point is that the original root is SLAS. Hence _hlar-_ goes back on
> older _hlaz-_, intervocalic S becoming Z and then R.
>
> The ancient past tense *_slanse_  "heared" should however evolve into
> *_hlasse_.We have never seen this exact form, but compare _hriz-_ "to
> snow" from the root SRIS, with past tense _hrinse_ and apparently
> _hrisse_ by assimilation (PE17:168).
>
> I believe that in Parma 18 or 19, there is even an explicit statement to
> the effect that primary verbs derived from stems that originally ended
> in -S are to have past tense forms in _-sse_ (assimilated from the old
> _-nse_ that arose by nasal infixion). I can't find the reference right
> now -- anyone?

Could it be PE 19:99?

"In Quenya - - - _ns_, from any nasal + _s_, was then in the oldest strata
unvoiced to _ss_.
|| Reformations of this _ss_ seldom occurred in PQ [Classical Quenya]. They
were more frequent in TQ [Spoken Quenya] especially in the past-tense forms
of bases with original medial _s_. In both PQ and TQ they only occurred
after the change of intervocalic _s > z_. The restored forms thus showed
_nz_ and were thus distinct from TQ _ns < n�_ with restored nasal before
medial _th_. Since in �[oldorin Quenya] _s > z >r_ the _nz_ forms were also
obscured becoming, or being replaced by, _rr_ (or _rn_)."

This points to *_hlasse_ as the original form. But it seems that in late
Quenya an analogical *_hlarne_ would be equally probable.

<> Bj�rn

#36253

From: "Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@...>
Date: Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:49 pm
Subject: Re: Hlassen? Past tense questions

helge.fauskanger@...

Thanks for help to find this quote in PE19:99:

"In Quenya - - - _ns_, from any nasal + _s_, was then in the oldest strata
unvoiced to _ss_.
|| Reformations of this _ss_ seldom occurred in PQ [Classical Quenya]. They
were more frequent in TQ [Spoken Quenya] especially in the past-tense forms
of bases with original medial _s_. In both PQ and TQ they only occurred
after the change of intervocalic _s > z_. The restored forms thus showed
_nz_ and were thus distinct from TQ _ns < n�_ with restored nasal before
medial _th_. Since in �[oldorin Quenya] _s > z >r_ the _nz_ forms were also
obscured becoming, or being replaced by, _rr_ (or _rn_)."

  > This points to *_hlasse_ as the original form. But it seems that in late
Quenya an analogical *_hlarne_ would be equally probable.

Yes, or even *_hlarre_.

I introducted the form *_hlasse_ "heard" mainly by analogy with _hrisse_
"snowed" (SRIS). If the latter is NOT reformed as *_hrirre_/_hrirne_,
could this be because of the Quenya horror of too many R's in close
sequence, which Tolkien alludes to elsewhere in his phonological writings?

A form like *_hlasse_ must probably be permissible if you want to give
the language something of a classical flavor, at least. (But maybe some
would argue that then you should include other archaic features as well,
such as letting adjectives in -a and -ea have plural forms in _-ai_ and
_-eai_ instead of later _-e_ and _-ie_, and using the distinct accusative.)

Or maybe highly-frequent "irregular" verbs of this kind would be less
likely to be "reformed" than less common verbs? The past tense "heard"
would surely be frequent enough to merit "irregularity". But analogy
seems to be a curiously powerful force in Eldarin, maybe resulting from
the super-human (that is, super-mortal) Elvish consciousness of the
structure of a language as a whole.

- HKF

#36254

From: "Algoroth Draconis" <algoroth_draconis@...>
Date: Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:06 am
Subject: My Prayer translated to Quenya (?)

algoroth_dra...

I have a prayer that I wrote and always wanted to translate to elvish.  So here
it is.  I know it is wrong in many ways but can't for the life of me figure out
how.  I am trying to learn elvish (as I've stated before) and hope that this
will be looked upon as a lesson in Quenya grammar.  And as you all seem to be
the experts, I may as well put my "assignment" to you.

Thanks all and, here's that prayer that I'm submitting for grading.

Nai �taremma till
Nai minyatoronemma mavorella
Nai I airef�a calyll�
Nai amill�lla antaly� s�r�
Nai I h�ratirno varyall�
ar nai I aire hildin anhyam len

May our Father keep you,
May our Elder Brother guide you,
May the Spirit teach you,
May our Mother comfort you,
May the Archangels defend you,
and may the Saints pray for you.

#36255

From: "meglimorco" <fromen@...>
Date: Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:57 am
Subject: Re: Hlassen? Past tense questions

meglimorco

>  > This points to *_hlasse_ as the original form. But it seems that in late
>  > Quenya an analogical *_hlarne_ would be equally probable.
>
> Yes, or even *_hlarre_.
>
> I introducted the form *_hlasse_ "heard" mainly by analogy with _hrisse_
> "snowed" (SRIS). If the latter is NOT reformed as *_hrirre_/_hrirne_,
> could this be because of the Quenya horror of too many R's in close
> sequence, which Tolkien alludes to elsewhere in his phonological writings?

That's exactly why I don't think *_hlaz-_ and *_hriz-_ are perfect parallels.
"When _r_ preceded or followed _z_ (even with an intervening vowel) the
_rhotacism_ did not take place in �. Or Tel. In such cases _z_ was again
unvoiced to _s_ by the Noldor in Beleriand. So _raze (rase)_, sticks out (not
_rare_)" (PE 19:73). This means that _hr�za_ 'it is snowing' and a reformed past
tense *_hrinze_ must have reverted to *_hr�sa_ and _hrinse_ in Noldorin Quenya.
(It remains unclear whether the _hrinse_ quoted in PE 17:168 is this reverted
form or an archaic form from the "oldest strata", before the general change ns >
ss.)


> A form like *_hlasse_ must probably be permissible if you want to give
> the language something of a classical flavor, at least. (But maybe some
> would argue that then you should include other archaic features as well,
> such as letting adjectives in -a and -ea have plural forms in _-ai_ and
> _-eai_ instead of later _-e_ and _-ie_, and using the distinct accusative.)
>
> Or maybe highly-frequent "irregular" verbs of this kind would be less
> likely to be "reformed" than less common verbs? The past tense "heard"
> would surely be frequent enough to merit "irregularity".


Yes, the reformations are said to be frequent, not ubiquitous. So *_hlasse_ may
very well have been the current form in late Quenya, either alone or collateral
with an analogical *_hlarne_/*_hlarre_.

<> Bj�rn