Helge

This is brilliant your work in the past has been very helpful and will eagerly
read this through and give you any comments.  Working on Finnish at the moment
so it will be interesting to do together!

Best
Andy

Sent from the IPAD of Andrew Higgins asthiggins@...  asthiggins on Twitter
And at his blog Wotan's Musings http://wotanselvishmusings.blogspot.com/


On 26 Sep 2011, at 18:59, "Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@...>
wrote:

> I have uploaded a rough version of my revised Quenya course here:
>
> http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/lessons.rtf
>
> There is still no link from the Ardalambion main page, but people can at
> least see for themselves that this LONG-announced revision actually
> exists. Some typographical peculiarities need to be sorted out; in
> particular, the font size mysteriously changes halfway through the
> document. Some artifact of the uploading process, I think.
>
> The revised Appendices are not included in this file, but I will add them.
>
> I think about turning the whole thing into a PDF file, so that I can be
> sure it comes out the way it is supposed to, on people's screens. (In
> one browser I used to look at it, huge sections mysteriously appeared in
> all-capitals.)
>
> Any ideas are welcome. What I would really do is to write a wholly new
> Quenya course, but this version at least includes patches that take care
> of some of the most desperate problems. (Remember, folks, the past tense
> "lay" is _caine_! Not _caitane_! Never, never use _caitane_! If you
> seem to remember me saying anything different, forget it!)
>
> - HKF
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thank you, Helge, for this revised course. I look forward to reading it.

> Some typographical peculiarities need to be sorted out; in
> particular, the font size mysteriously changes halfway through the
> document. Some artifact of the uploading process, I think.
>

> I think about turning the whole thing into a PDF file, so that I can be sure
it comes out the way it is supposed to, on people's screens. (In one browser I
used to look at it, huge sections mysteriously appeared in all-capitals.)
>

The font size and the capitals can easily be corrected by everyone:
- save the file in word
- the select the whole text
- under fonts one has to tick off the "small capitals"
- chose Times New Roman 12
- save the changes


and the whole text is perfect.

Órerámar

Thank you very much!

Harya alasse!
---
Ammornil Henduluin


On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 8:59 PM, Helge K. Fauskanger <
helge.fauskanger@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> I have uploaded a rough version of my revised Quenya course here:
>
> http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/lessons.rtf
>
> There is still no link from the Ardalambion main page, but people can at
> least see for themselves that this LONG-announced revision actually
> exists. Some typographical peculiarities need to be sorted out; in
> particular, the font size mysteriously changes halfway through the
> document. Some artifact of the uploading process, I think.
>
> The revised Appendices are not included in this file, but I will add them.
>
> I think about turning the whole thing into a PDF file, so that I can be
> sure it comes out the way it is supposed to, on people's screens. (In
> one browser I used to look at it, huge sections mysteriously appeared in
> all-capitals.)
>
> Any ideas are welcome. What I would really do is to write a wholly new
> Quenya course, but this version at least includes patches that take care
> of some of the most desperate problems. (Remember, folks, the past tense
> "lay" is _caine_! Not _caitane_! Never, never use _caitane_! If you
> seem to remember me saying anything different, forget it!)
>
> - HKF
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks once again Mans for such technical advice.
I can successfully get it set in stone now.
Janine




To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
From: at@...
Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 19:47:01 +0000
Subject: [elfling] Re: Translation verification






The dots over the letter "e" are not umlauts but diaereses, used to emphasize
that the letter is not silent. They can therefore be omitted, as Tolkien
sometimes does -- "e" is _never_ silent in Quenya.

If you like, you may write "Melinyë lyë/tyë illumë epë cuilë" instead.

By the way, instead of "Melinye" you can use the shorter form "Melin", whichever
you prefer.

//Måns

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Janine Morris <janinekaihau@...> wrote:
>
>
> Thanks so much, Mans, that's fantastic.
> Are there any umlauts included in that translation?
> Thanks again
> Janine
>
>
>
>
> To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
> From: at@...
> Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 05:43:11 +0000
> Subject: [elfling] Re: Translation verification
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "janine.kaihau" <janinekaihau@> wrote:
> >
> > Before it becomes permanent, could any member please verify my translation
below into Quenya:
> >
> > I LOVE YOU ALWAYS
> > I LOVED YOU MORE THAN LIFE
> >
> > melnyët illumë
> > mellënyët (lil?) cuilë
> >
> > Or
> >
> > tye meln illumë
> > tye mellën (lil?) cuilë
> >
> > With thanks
> > Janine
> >
>
> Perhaps better:
>
> Melinye lye [or tye] illume
> Melinye lye [or tye] epe cuile
>
> Yours,
> Måns
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thank you for the update on the Quenya course. Most appreciated!
Yvonne

 
Yvonne Van Brimmer
aka.Tamurile Halfelven
"Nai Laivin caluva tielyanna!"

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 I plan to take the course during university holidays, but now i'll take the
revised one then.

Much appreciated,

César

 



________________________________
De: Yvonne Van Brimmer <hobbitwife@...>
Para: "elfling@yahoogroups.com" <elfling@yahoogroups.com>
Enviado: Miércoles, 28 de septiembre, 2011 11:16:38
Asunto: [elfling] Re: Course revisions


 
Thank you for the update on the Quenya course. Most appreciated!
Yvonne

 
Yvonne Van Brimmer
aka.Tamurile Halfelven
"Nai Laivin caluva tielyanna!"

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I am a bit puzzled by the construction of the comparative, as my two main
sources disagree on this:

Fauskanger gives a construction using _lá_
_Anar ná calima lá Isil_  (lit. The sun is bright beyond the moon)

Renk gives one using _epë_
_Anar calima epë Isil_ (lit. The sun is bright before the moon)

I can perfectly live with two different ways of making comparisons, but I find a
bit strange that neither of the two authors acknowledges the existence of an
alternative construction; I see that in Fauskanger's Quettaparma _epë_ is said
to be used in comparisons in the same way as _lá_, but nothing is said in his
Quenya course, not even in the new revision.

Are both comparatives acceptable? Do they belong to different versions of
Tolkien's Quenya, or they coesist in the same version?
Any comments?

Thanks,
Francesco

Thanks, I'll read it carefully in the next days.
A pdf version would be greatly appreciated for portability and consistence.
I have a doubt about the use of _lá_ and/or _epë_ for comparatives (I opened a
different thread for that), and I spotted a minor typo in the first note in
lesson eighteen (simular->similar)

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@...>
wrote:
>
> I have uploaded a rough version of my revised Quenya course here:
>
> http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/lessons.rtf
>
> There is still no link from the Ardalambion main page, but people can at
> least see for themselves that this LONG-announced revision actually
> exists. Some typographical peculiarities need to be sorted out; in
> particular, the font size mysteriously changes halfway through the
> document. Some artifact of the uploading process, I think.
>
> The revised Appendices are not included in this file, but I will add them.
>
> I think about turning the whole thing into a PDF file, so that I can be
> sure it comes out the way it is supposed to, on people's screens. (In
> one browser I used to look at it, huge sections mysteriously appeared in
> all-capitals.)
>
> Any ideas are welcome. What I would really do is to write a wholly new
> Quenya course, but this version at least includes patches that take care
> of some of the most desperate problems. (Remember, folks, the past tense
> "lay" is _caine_! Not _caitane_! Never, never use _caitane_!  If you
> seem to remember me saying anything different, forget it!)
>
> - HKF
>

Måns wrote:

  > If you like, you may write "Melinyë lyë/tyë illumë epë cuilë" instead

Of course it doesn't matter whether you write ë or e, but do we have any
example of Tolkien using the spelling "ë" at the end of a monosyllabic
word like _tye_?

The "dots" are meant to remind the reader that final _e_ is not silent,
but since it cannot possibly be silent in a word where it is the SOLE
vowel, any special annotation seems superfluous.

- HKF

With regards to the diaresis: since it is intended to indicate to
*non-speakers* that final _e_'s are to be pronounced, not only are they
superfluous with regards to monosyllabic words, but they are superfluous
when used by those who are in the community of speakers (including
learners).   The usage of the diaresis is a curious thing, but nothing
to really worry about.

~J.R. Omahen

(2011年10月02日 10:58), Helge K. Fauskanger wrote:
>
>
> MÃ¥ns wrote:
>
>> If you like, you may write "Melinyë lyë/tyë illumë epë cuilë" instead
>
> Of course it doesn't matter whether you write ë or e, but do we have any
> example of Tolkien using the spelling "ë" at the end of a monosyllabic
> word like _tye_?
>
> The "dots" are meant to remind the reader that final _e_ is not silent,
> but since it cannot possibly be silent in a word where it is the SOLE
> vowel, any special annotation seems superfluous.
>
> - HKF
>
>

Máriessë, a moinë nildonyar!

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@...>
wrote:
>
> I have uploaded a rough version of my revised Quenya course here:
>
> http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/lessons.rtf

First of all, I'd like to express my sincere gratitude to Helge for his
excellent course. It was my starting point in studying Quenya, after all. You're
doing a great job, man. That is why the revision of the QC in light of new data
(esp. from PE17 and VT49) is of great help for us, learners.
Still I wonder a bit about Lesson 8 with the negative verb. The course still
offers "umin + Infinitive" construction, though I see you using the fresher
version "uan + tense form" in your Johannine translation, too. Would the latter
be worth mention in the Course, too?

Friendly yours,
Isaac
Kiev, Ukraine

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@...>
wrote:
> Of course it doesn't matter whether you write ë or e, but do we have any
> example of Tolkien using the spelling "ë" at the end of a monosyllabic
> word like _tye_?
>
> The "dots" are meant to remind the reader that final _e_ is not silent,
> but since it cannot possibly be silent in a word where it is the SOLE
> vowel, any special annotation seems superfluous.

Yes, you are probably right that _e_ with diaeresis does not occur in any
monosyllabic words. Since the diaeresis is redundant anyway, that would really
be super-redundant.

/Måns

I have encountered on some websites the expression _vanya súlië_ variedly
translated as good/fair wind(s), presented as a form of farewell.
Do you know any reference for this expression? Where does it occur?

On the Quettaparma the relevant words seem to be _súlë_, _súrë_, _súru_,
but a form _súlië_ doesn't seem to fit.
So, is thar form of farewell really attested, or is it fan-constructed?
And what other attested forms of greetings and farewells are there? (apart _Elen
Síla ..._ and Namárië_ )

Thanks,
Francesco

In Lesson 13, at the end of the section "The pronoun we", it says
"whereas -mmë (formerly exclusive plural) ended up as dual inclusive “we�,
with either -ngwë or -nquë as the corresponding dual inclusive form." which
clearly contains a typo.
-mmë ended up as dual *exclusive* we, judging from what is said in other parts
of the same Lesson, didn't it?

PS
I think I make a favour to the author and the future readers in pointing out
these small corrections; I do not mean to nitpick.

I'd also like to thank you for producing your Quenya course, which was my
re-introduction to Tolkien's languages after many years of absence.

For formatting, I looked at the RTF file, and it seems that its picked up a lot
of detritus over the years (miscellaneous font size changes and so forth). In
most word processors, it is difficult to clean up the text, because it is hard
to get the program to remove some styles but not others.

When I've faced this issue myself, I convert the text to HTML, clean up the HTML
and convert back to a word processor document. I did this when I first read your
previous course, and did a quick experiment this morning with the draft of the
new version.

I could preserve almost all of the "meaningful" formatting: section headers,
colors, bold, italics and underlines. I am having trouble with the blockquotes,
but I haven't put much effort into figuring it out.

If you'd like, I could email you the cleaned up files (both HTML and RTF). It
didn't take me long. If you like the result, I'd be happy to do similar cleaning
on any later drafts you have, since presumably you've made some edits in the
last couple weeks.

Greetings to you all. =:)

Thus far I was merely contented with transcribing texts, but now I decided to
take the plunge for translation and I don't know if I fared that well.

If I could take up some of your time to debate/verify a short translation of
lyrics excerpt, I'd be very much obliged.

The lyrics are:
Noldor, blood is on your hands.
Tears unnumbered you will shet and dwell in pain.

My attempt:
_Noldor, sercë nás málildanna._
_Nier-unótime nauvalmë nyényë ar sémar naiceleas._

The ending -nna sounds better to me than _nás or málilda_ but then again, maybe
I'm way off here anyway.

With "you will shet and dwell in pain" came the real trouble for me. Since I
couldn't find any word for shet, I went for "you will be weeping," yet I have a
feeling that _nyényë_ is a noun and not a verb, therefore it doesn't make sense.
Likewise with no word for dwell (nor live), I chose a rather clumsy "be at home"
- _sémar_.

The longer I look at it, though, the less sure I am of the outcome. =:( I'll be
grateful for any advice and/or pointers.

I think the internet devoured the diacritics you were trying to use, and turned
them into random symbols. How about good old geminant vowels?

Were you trying to say, "Vanya suulie"?

As far as I know, it's complete fan-constructed. In fact, I think it's Grelvish.
http://www.grey-company.org/Circle/language/phrase.htm

As for other attested forms, we have "aiya" from "Aiya Earendil elenion
ancalima!" and "aia" for "Aia Mariia" (likely that those two are variants of
eachother) and from PE17 (page 146) we have "alla".

Fiona

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "fra.veneziano" <fra.veneziano@...> wrote:
>
> I have encountered on some websites the expression _vanya súlië_ variedly
translated as good/fair wind(s), presented as a form of farewell.
> Do you know any reference for this expression? Where does it occur?
>
> On the Quettaparma the relevant words seem to be _súlë_, _súrë_, _súru_,
but a form _súlië_ doesn't seem to fit.
> So, is thar form of farewell really attested, or is it fan-constructed?
> And what other attested forms of greetings and farewells are there? (apart
_Elen Síla ..._ and Namárië_ )
>
> Thanks,
> Francesco
>

Greetings Francesco,
If you look in Parma Eldalamberon 17, vanya is listed under the root BAN as
including the sense Fair and Fine in terms of weather. So Tolkien may have seen
it as a possibility for that sort of saying.

But you are right, the word for wind is not sulie. That form seems to be built
off of the word for spirit: sule, which was applied to Manwe as a surname:
Sulimo, which refers to him being the Lord of the winds, but also the Lord of
spirits. That comes from a word in the Qenya Lexicon for wind: sulime. Later
that word becomes sule, which also refers to the breath.

Wind, according to Tolkien's gloss of surinen (in the wind) in his "Words,
Phrases, and Passages," should be sure (long U)in the nominative, but the root
of that word is suri which gives the i when the dative or locative endings are
added. The plural of winds then would be suri. I suppose you could say Vanye
suri! It's not attested, but at least it's grammatically correct! Especially if
you make sure the adjective agrees with the plural winds.

Attested Greetings in Tolkien include Aiya (with variants alla and aia) as
mentioned earlier, but also Hara mariesse (stay in happiness), or just Mariesse.
In PE17, under the root MAN, Tolkien said that Namarie (a na marie) which
literally means "be well" is a "formula of greeting or farewell." He went on to
say that Ava marie and Marienna (go happily or to happiness) were only used as
farewells. Under the root MAGA, Tolkien includes Alamene! as a farewell, meaning
go with a blessing or good omen.

As Frodo uses Elen sila lumenn'omentielvo (revised second edition)to greet
Gildor in the forest, I assume this is a greeting and not a farewell, though the
formula seems suited to either. A similar greeting is Anar caluva tielyanna,
"The Sun shall light your path." This one appeared in The Unfinished Tales.
Tolkien also included Alatulie to mean Welcome in the word list published in
PE17.

Thorsten Renk includes a couple of other farewells in his Quenya Course: Nai
Autuvalye seresse (may you leave in peace!) or Mara mesta (good journey. Both
seem to come from solid grammatical bases, though I'm still looking for the
source of the word mesta...

I hope that helps!
Ithidriel


--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "fra.veneziano" <fra.veneziano@...> wrote:
>
> I have encountered on some websites the expression _vanya súlië_ variedly
translated as good/fair wind(s), presented as a form of farewell.
> Do you know any reference for this expression? Where does it occur?
>
> On the Quettaparma the relevant words seem to be _súlë_, _súrë_, _súru_,
but a form _súlië_ doesn't seem to fit.
> So, is thar form of farewell really attested, or is it fan-constructed?
> And what other attested forms of greetings and farewells are there? (apart
_Elen Síla ..._ and Namárië_ )
>
> Thanks,
> Francesco
>

On 2011-10-14 00:56, dreamingfifi wrote:
> I think the internet devoured the diacritics you were trying to use, and
turned them into random symbols. How about good old geminant vowels?

It's not 'the internet' but Yahoo Groups' email interface
which garbles Unicode (UTF-8) by interpreting Unicode encoded
text as if it were Latin-1 encoded, and proceding to 'convert'
the assumed to Unicode (UTF-8), causing what is called
double-encoding. Unfortunately I can't find any simple
explanation to link to, but in practice it means that in
2011 you still can't use Unicode on YG: make sure to send
your messages in Latin-1 encoding, or use digraphs --
doubled vowels or punctuation characters before the letter,
(before, because punctuation characters like .:,;!? usually
don't occur immediately before letters. There are several
conventions which differ in details, e.g. one I use when
taking notes on my somewhat dated Symbian phone:

/e = acute accent
\e = grave accent
<e = curcumflex
:e = diaeresis/umlaut
|e = macron
)e = breve
;o = hook below (ogonek)
?o = hook above
~n = tilde
%l = ring below
&a = ring above
  >s = caron
,c = cedilla
.e = dot above (but .i .j = dotless i j)
!e = dot below
=t = line below
(i = bow below
$d $o = strike-through (ð ø)
a^e = ligature
t_h = tie
^[x] = superscript
_[x] = subscript
Special letters:
@ = schwa (turned e)
`th = thorn (þ)
`t^h = theta
`s = long s
`e = epsilon
`o = open o
`g = gamma
`x = chi
`y = yough
`z = ezh
`ng = eng
`nj = eny (JRRT)
`hv = hvair
`hj = 'hjar' (JRRT)

To disabbiguate transcriptions may be enclosed in {braces},
e.g. "{e.g}." 'e + g-dot-above + period' vs. "e.g." 'for example'
"{<e}/{/e}" 'e-circumflex or e-acute'.

There are also conventions for writing phonetic transcriptions
in all-ASCII, e.g. <http://www.theiling.de/ipa/>

/bpj/melroch

Here is what I would suggest. I apologize in advance for getting pedantic.

On 10/13/11 9:44 AM, Linda Naush wrote:
>
> Greetings to you all. =:)
>
> Thus far I was merely contented with transcribing texts, but now I decided to
take the plunge for translation and I don't know if I fared that well.
>
> If I could take up some of your time to debate/verify a short translation of
lyrics excerpt, I'd be very much obliged.
>
> The lyrics are:
> Noldor, blood is on your hands.
> Tears unnumbered you will shet and dwell in pain.
>
> My attempt:
> _Noldor, sercë nás málildanna._

With "hands", I would use the dual _-t_ instead of the partitive plural _-li_.
Presumably each Noldor has both hands covered in blood, so the dual is
appropriate. The plurality of the pairs of hands is implied by the _-lda_.

There is a discussion of this usage on VT47/6. In Quenya, _má_ hand is rarely
used in the plural. The phrase "they raised their hands" would have _má_ in the
singular if each person raised one hand, or _mát_ in the dual if each person
raised two hands.

Combining the dual _-t_ with the allative _-nna_ produces _-nta_.

_Noldor, serce nás máldanta._

I would omit the 3rd-person-singular suffix _-s_ from _nás_. In Quenya, most
verbal inflections are really pronominal suffixes: they replace the subject and
are not used for subject-verb agreement (the exception being _-r/-t_ for
agreement in number with plural/dual subjects). Since there is already a subject
in the sentence, _serce ná_ makes more sense:

_Noldor, serce ná máldanta._

I am not sure that _ná_ can be used with a prepositional phrase like "on your
hands". If it can be, my intuition is that it would appear at the end of the
sentence rather than the beginning, but I don't really have anything to back
that up:

_Noldor, serce máldanta ná._

In general, _ná_ is used as cupola to equate two nouns or a noun and an
adjective. The allative suffix _-nna_ was (at least originally) used to form
adverbs (PE17/62). It might be safer to use some other phrase with a similar
meaning, such as:

_serce caita máldanta._ "blood lies on your hands"
_serce tope máldat._ "blood covers your hands"

> _Nier-unótime nauvalmë nyényë ..._

As you suggest, _nyénye_ is a noun, not a verb (and an old noun at that). A
later verb with similar meaning would be: _naina-_ "lament".

_Nier-unótime nauvalme naina ..._

You don't "lament" tears, so "lament with tears unnumbered" would be better. The
preposition "with" is a bit tricky in Quenya. I think the best available is the
preposition "as" from VT47/29:

_As nier-unótime nauvalme naina ..._

Unlike English, Quenya doesn't use a helping verb "will" to form the future. The
future suffix _-uva_ is appended to the verb, replacing the final "a" in the
case of A-stem verbs:

_As nier-unótime nainuvalme ..._

The suffix _-lme_ is for 1st-person-plural. Here, the subject should be
2nd-person-plural "you (pl)" which is _-lde_ matching the earlier _-lda_:

_As nier-unótime nainuvalde ..._ "With tears unnumbered you will lament ..."

This revised phrase may not have the connotations you want, so you might try
other phrasing, like:

_Nieldar lantuvar unótime ..._ "Your tears will fall unnumbered ..."

> _... ar sémar naiceleas._

I think the closest available equivalent to "dwell" in Quenya is the verb
_mar-_. In Aragorn's speech in book VI/chap 5, he says _Sinome maruvan_
translated "In this place will I abide", which is roughly equal to "Here I will
dwell".

The second verb should have the same inflection as the first one:

_... ar maruvalde naiceleas._

The word _naicelea_ is an adjective, so I am guessing you would rather use the
noun _naicele_. Instead of the _-s_ case, I would put it into the
better-understood locative case _-sse_:

_... ar maruvalde naicelesse._

So overall:

_Noldor, serce máldanta ná._
_As nier-unótime nainuvalde ar maruvalde naicelesse._

Or with alternate phrasing:

_Noldor, serce tope máldat._
_Nieldar lantuvar unótime ar maruvalde naicelesse._

Hello elflings

would you like to confirm me the short traduction of "make a wish" ("faire un
voeu" in french)

I hesitate with a simple "caro enira" or "echado a enira" or more simple "eniro"

the echad word seem "to build"  and "make a wish" is more like "tell a wish" so
why not "pedo enira"

what do you think ?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thank you for your answers.
Yes, I suspected it was a fan-made expression.


And it is quite disappointing that yahoo! still doesn't interact well with
Unicode encoding.

Thanks,
Francesco

Hi, Paul,

> Here is what I would suggest. I apologize in advance for getting pedantic.
>

No problem at all, quite to the contrary. I learned a lot from your
elaborations. I only wish you were portable to carry with me. =;)))

From all the possibilities you offered, I think I like most _serce caita
máldanta_ - blood lies upon your hands, but I might also use _serce tope
máldat_, I'll see how both look written. _Nieldar lantuvar unótime_ - Your tears
will fall unnumbered is such a beautiful expression! One I probably would not
have come up with.

Thank you very much for your time and effort.

Regards
Lin

Thanks for various comments!


One generous offer I noted:

  > I'd also like to thank you for producing your Quenya course, which
was my re-introduction to Tolkien's languages after many years of
absence. (...) If you'd like, I could email you the cleaned up files
(both HTML and RTF). It didn't take me long. If you like the result, I'd
be happy to do similar cleaning on any later drafts you have, since
presumably you've made some edits in the last couple weeks.

Actually not; I have been busy with another project. That is also why I
may have seemed a little bit unresponsive in this forum (please don't
think I am in any way insulted if people produce constructive critique
of my work!). I shall be happy to receive the RTF file.

To all of you: You don't have to make any excuses about "nitpicking"  if
you find errors. This is a fairly complex document, and when I make
changes in one place that often leaves inconsistencies and incomplete
revisions in other places. I very much appreciate any help I can get in
weeding out the imperfections.

One thing that was pointed out: No, I didn't introduce the "new"
negative verb _ua_ in the main text, for I don't consider the _um-_
forms from the Etymologies necessarily obsolete, but I will mention the
"new" negative verb in an appendix (already written).

- HKF


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"pfstrack" wrote:


  > I'd also like to thank you for producing your Quenya course, which
was my re-introduction to Tolkien's languages after many years of
absence. (...) If you'd like, I could email you the cleaned up files
(both HTML and RTF). It didn't take me long. If you like the result, I'd
be happy to do similar cleaning on any later drafts you have, since
presumably you've made some edits in the last couple weeks.

Actually not; I have been busy with another project. That is also why I
may have seemed a little bit unresponsive in this forum (please don't
think I am in any way insulted if people produce constructive critique
of my work!). I shall be happy to receive the RTF file.

To all of you: You don't have to make any excuses about "nitpicking"  if
you find errors. This is a fairly complex document, and when I make
changes in one place that often leaves inconsistencies and incomplete
revisions in other places. I very much appreciate any help I can get in
weeding out the imperfections.

One thing that was pointed out: No, I didn't introduce the "new"
negative verb _ua_ in the main text, for I don't consider the _um-_
forms from the Etymologies necessarily obsolete, but I will mention the
"new" negative verb in an appendix (already written).

- HKF


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Greetings,

Years ago, when working on Hisweloke's Sindarin dictionary project, dictionary
applications were made available our users: first my own web-based search
engine, and then the Dragon Flame and Hesperides desktop applications for
Windows, Linux and Mac OS operating systems... These applications were certainly
cool and nifty at their time (2001-2004), but unfortunately, they were no longer
updated. They embedded old versions of the lexicon and were based on now rather
technologies or design principles...

Well, early in October, I was contacted by a kind developer and we settle on
doing something about it. Updating the old applications wouldn't have been the
best choice, so we considered a brand new approach.

I am therefore glad to announce "Ladon's Breath", a Sindarin/Noldorin dictionary
add-on for the Firefox web browser :)

Our design rationale have been the following:
- We realized that most of the time we used such a dictionary tool was when we
were on-line (on discussion forums etc.) and quickly required some reference. So
it would be pretty cool to pop-up the application by a simple click directly
from the browser, without needing to open a new external application.
- Firefox is a free software, available on several systems and providing nice
and neat up-to-the-art techniques and features, so a Firefox add-on was our top
choice.

This is still an early pre-version - a little small thing - but for those that
might be interested, I have set a small web site where you will find a gallery
(to give it a look) and a download link (to give it an early try). Please note
that Firefox version 7.0 or upper is required.

Here is the link:
https://sites.google.com/site/lbreathdev/

I hope you'll enjoy it as much as we do, though there's still plenty of things
to do and ideas to test.

Oh, and last but not least, it also embeds an updated version of Hisweloke's
lexicon, with several fixes, new words from PE18 and PE19, and a small subset
from PE17 - work is in progress for more updates, but it's nice to see that good
old project, stalled since 2008, being now revived like this.

Cheers,

Didier

It has been called to my attention that an artist by the name of Doda
has a string of little videos on YouTube that include little phrases in
"Elvish". I believe I can make out some more-or-less genuine Sindarin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9dm6jQ_xsM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2kuKS67g9k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhdqeGGIl0s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3p3_6eFBFAA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zf14cPYT3-g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAnMu2NInHE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZJxmPAbj4U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32E51_Fb_8Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAIH7sONCng
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBXdid6jDQ0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ng95L_MggwQ

She speaks really fast (almost like a native speaker ...), but her
pronunciation sounds very decent.

It is possible to make out some of it. The first item on the list above
may include _cardhath nin_ "my deeds".

Can others make sense of some of this?

- HKF

Hello elflings

anyone cans tell me ?
"make a wish" in sindarin words



________________________________
De : Lynndir <lynndir@...>
À : "elfling@yahoogroups.com" <elfling@yahoogroups.com>
Envoyé le : Dimanche 16 Octobre 2011 20h14
Objet : [elfling] Make a wish


 
Hello elflings

would you like to confirm me the short traduction of "make a wish" ("faire un
voeu" in french)

I hesitate with a simple "caro enira" or "echado a enira" or more simple "eniro"

the "echad" word seem "to build"  and "make a wish" is more like "tell a wish"
so why not "pedo enira"

what do you think ?

Apparently, this 'Doda' is a sort of Polish Lady Gaga, and on her last album
called "the Seven Temptations", she recorded some sentences about "what she
really thinks about the world" that were translated into Sindarin by Richard
Derdziński. The reason why she uses Sindarin is given on a Polish website: her
comments are so "not done" that they would supposedly land her in jail if anyone
found out what they meant (that is, if the Google translation is good enough).

I doubt that - it sounds more like one of the usual popstar marketing techniques
:)

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&prev=/search%3Fq%3Ddoda\
%2Bthe%2Bseven%2Btemptations%2Btolkien%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dsafari%\
26rls%3Den%26biw%3D1248%26bih%3D725%26prmd%3Dimvns&rurl=translate.google.nl&sl=p\
l&twu=1&u=http://www.emetro.pl/emetro/1,88815,9836595,Doda__To_co_mysle__powiem_\
wam_po_elficku.html&usg=ALkJrhg7p2m5bizBObOEzMxIUt-EaGnzlg

Maybe those Sindarin texts translate like "Mr. <important Polish dude> smells
like an orc" or something like that. Or "the ones in power have cast a shadow of
horror over us".


On 3 Nov 2011, at 14:54, Helge K. Fauskanger wrote:

> It has been called to my attention that an artist by the name of Doda
> has a string of little videos on YouTube that include little phrases in
> "Elvish". I believe I can make out some more-or-less genuine Sindarin:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9dm6jQ_xsM
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2kuKS67g9k
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhdqeGGIl0s
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3p3_6eFBFAA
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zf14cPYT3-g
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAnMu2NInHE
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZJxmPAbj4U
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32E51_Fb_8Y
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAIH7sONCng
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBXdid6jDQ0
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ng95L_MggwQ
>
> She speaks really fast (almost like a native speaker ...), but her
> pronunciation sounds very decent.
>
> It is possible to make out some of it. The first item on the list above
> may include _cardhath nin_ "my deeds".
>
> Can others make sense of some of this?
>
> - HKF
>

I will take a stab at this. My Sindarin is not that good, though, which is why I
hesitated to answer.

I am not sure where you got _enira_ from. It isn't in Hiswelókë's Sindarin
dictionary. The only Sindarin word I know for "wish" is _iest_ < √YES "desire"
(Etym/YES), so that's the one I'd use.

As for "make", formulating a wish is primarily an act of cognition. I would use
a word for "think, formulate, invent". The best attested Sindarin verb I can
find is _nautha-_ "conceive" < √NOWO "think, form idea, imagine" (Etym/NOWO).

So in the imperative:

_nautho iest_ "(lit.) conceive a wish, imagine a wish"

Since a wish is supposedly an entirely new conception, I think "invent a wish"
would be better, from the root √GAWA/GOWO "think out, devise, contrive".
Unfortunately, while there is an attested Quenya verb from this root (_auta_ "to
invent, to devise"), there is no attested Sindarin verb from this root and my
knowledge of Sindarin phonology isn't good enough to engineer one.

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Lynndir <lynndir@...> wrote:
>
> Hello elflings
>
> anyone cans tell me ?
> "make a wish" in sindarin words
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> De : Lynndir <lynndir@...>
> À : "elfling@yahoogroups.com" <elfling@yahoogroups.com>
> Envoyé le : Dimanche 16 Octobre 2011 20h14
> Objet : [elfling] Make a wish
>
>
>  
> Hello elflings
>
> would you like to confirm me the short traduction of "make a wish" ("faire un
voeu" in french)
>
> I hesitate with a simple "caro enira" or "echado a enira" or more simple
"eniro"
>
> the "echad" word seem "to build"  and "make a wish" is more like "tell a
wish" so why not "pedo enira"
>
> what do you think ?
>