Is anyone able to clarify whether the Silvan Elves of Mirkwood and Lorien are?:
 
A) Nandorin (and thus a branch of the Nandorin sub-family of the Eldarin family,
along with Ossiriandic/Danian and Leikvian/East Danian)
 
B) Avarin (Penni speakers), or
 
C) Both
 
Travis

I think this is covered in Unfinished Tales.

They are Nandorin with a Sindarin royal house.

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Travis Henry <traversetravis@...> wrote:
>
> Is anyone able to clarify whether the Silvan Elves of Mirkwood and Lorien
are?:
>  
> A) Nandorin (and thus a branch of the Nandorin sub-family of the Eldarin
family,
> along with Ossiriandic/Danian and Leikvian/East Danian)
>  
> B) Avarin (Penni speakers), or
>  
> C) Both
>  
> Travis
>

I am taking up a project I had to abandon a very long time ago, attempting to
translate a classic American poem into Quenya.  I posted a bit about this
project back when I first worked on it, if this sounds vaguely familiar. 
Anyway, here is the final line:

Ortanye calmanya ari fenna laurea!

I know what it's supposed to mean, but I am interested in the impressions of
people who are reading it without the original poem for reference.  What do you
think it means?  Does it make sense?

Good day,

Trying translate one text to qenya, I found the following problem. Let's take an
verb "tir-". Perfect pl. will be: "itirier" or just "tirier". However I need to
translate "we have watched". Than, I should use an inclusive pronoun "-lve". So
how should I add "-lve" to a perfect form?

Thanks.

Hi to all,

I've spent a night in learning quenya, but basically translating an
russian quatrain to quenya adressing available manuals at the same time.
I think it's not so bad, but I've number of things there I'm not very
sure about.

So, here is my translation:

Varnë winyamo rannë aldëonissen,
Ara falasi ailinion fellë nyérë,
Ar terë haranyë tiěrielvër
Milya escë lammaron taěliryarion.

The words used:

varnë adj. "brown, swart, dark brown", stemform varni- (BARÁN)
winyamo noun "youngster" (VT47:26). In Exilic Quenya, this word would
appear as *vinyamo; compare the related word winya > vinya "young, new".

ranya- (1) vb. "to stray" (RAN), (2) ranya noun "erratic wandering"
(VT42:13), (3) ranya, also aranya, adj. "free". Another gloss was not
certainly legible, but the editors suggest "uncontrolling" (VT46:10)

aldëon noun "avenue of trees" (LT1:249)

ara prep.(and adv.?) "outside, beside, besides" (AR2, VT49:57).
ar- (1) prefix "outside" (AR2), element meaning "beside" (VT42:17),
"by" (PE17:169; in the same source the glosses "near, by,
beside" were rejected). Cf. ara.

ailin ("g.sg. ailinen", in Tolkien's later Quenya dat.sg.) "pool, lake"
(AY, LIN1, LT2:339). Fem. Name Ailinel (likely *Ailinell-), perhaps
ailin + the feminine ending -el (as in aranel "princess"), hence
*"Lakewoman" or similar (UT:210).

falas (falass- ) , falassë noun " shore, beach" (LT1:253, LT2:339);
falassë "shore, line of surf" (SA:falas), "shore – especially one
exposed to great waves and breakers" (VT42:15), "beach"
(PHAL/PHÁLAS); Falassë Númëa place-name "Western Surf"
(LT1:253), Andafalassë "Langstrand" (PE17:135)

nyérë noun "grief" (LT1:261), "sorrow" (GL:60)

#fel- could then mean "to feel" in the general sense of "have an
emotion".

ter ( 1 ) , also terë , prep . "through" , *"throughout"
(Notes on CO, UT:317, TER/TERES, Narqelion, VT44:33, 35, VT49:41, 42).
The preposition is used both with spatial and temporal reference: ter
i•aldar *"through the trees" (Narqelion, cf. VT49:42), ter
coivierya *"throughout his/her life", ter yénion yéni
*"through years of years" (VT49:42, VT44:33, 35)

haranyë noun, last year of a century in the Númenórean calendar
(or possibly the word for "century" itself; Tolkien's wording is
unclear) (Appendix D)

tir- "watch, watch over, guard, heed", 1. pers. aorist tirin "I watch",
pa.t. tirnë (TIR), future tense tiruva "shall heed" in Markirya (also
MC:213, 214); also in CO with pronominal endings: tiruvantes "they will
guard it" (tir-uva-nte-s "guard-will-they-it"). The stem also occurs in
palantíri (q.v.), Tirion "Great Watchtower", a city of the Elves
(SA:tir; in MR:176 the translation is "Watchful City")

milya (1) adj. "soft, gentle, weak" (VT45:34)

ecse [escë] ("k") "rustle, noise of leaves" (EZGE)

lamma noun "sound" (LAM)

tál (tal-, as in "g.sg. talen"; in LotR-style Quenya this is rather
the dative singular) noun "foot" (TAL, VT49:17). Also tala (VT49:42).
Pl. táli "feet" (PE16:96); here Tolkien did not use tal- with
a short a as the stemform. VT43:16 mentions "an unpublished declension"
of this word dating from ca. 1967; here the locative is said to appear
as talassë and talsë. Cf. also talya "his foot"; see -ya
#4. Early "Qenya" forms: tala "foot" (LT2:347) and dual talwi "the feet"
(LT2:347); tálin "feet" (MC:216); instrumental talainen, talalínen
(MC:213, 216, 220; this is "Qenya")


In original it's ~the following:

Swarthy youngster rambled through an avenue of trees,
Mourned beside lake shores,
And throughout a century we have been deploring,
Slightly audible rustle of his footsteps.

Things I'm not sure about:

1. What cases should be used with "ara"? I found here, in the group, an
mention that it could be Nom/Acc (used it) and not Locative, but without
any arguments.

2. Not sure in the sequence of cases in "falasi ailinion". I think it
should be so, since shores (ailinion) of what? - Gen. pl. But fix it
please, if it's wrong.

3. I haven't found any analytical form for "be sad", so translated it as
"feel sadness". But possibly an appropriate verb exists?

4. I haven't found in manuals any mentions of how duration should be
explicated in quenya. I mean how to translate "during some time" (during
day, week, century etc). So I used "tere haranye" (~throughout a
century) for this. Please, fix if there is more right way to explicate
this. Than, I'm not sure in case here (used with "tere").

5. Than an problem I previously created an topic about. How to make an
correct perfect form for 2nd pl. (we) using an pronoun? Haven't found it
anywhere. Verb is "tir-" + ier (for perfect pl.) + pronoun "-lve". So it
should be something like "tirierlve", but "rlv" is impossible. Have I
made right by placing an pl. suffix "-r" after the tense suffix?

6. I haven't found any word for "slightly" and "footsteps", so I
replaced this string to "slight (soft) rustle of sounds of his feet".
Probably there is could be more appropriate translation?

Thanks in advance! :)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"I raise my lamp beside the golden door!"
--- On Wed, 8/11/10, promenadeofthedeer <riverbeauty@...> wrote:

From: promenadeofthedeer <riverbeauty@...>
Subject: [elfling] Translating a Poem
To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, August 11, 2010, 2:58 AM
















 









       I am taking up a project I had to abandon a very long time ago, attempting
to translate a classic American poem into Quenya.  I posted a bit about this
project back when I first worked on it, if this sounds vaguely familiar. 
Anyway, here is the final line:



Ortanye calmanya ari fenna laurea!



I know what it's supposed to mean, but I am interested in the impressions of
people who are reading it without the original poem for reference.  What do you
think it means?  Does it make sense?






























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I was wondering if anybody could tell me if the possessive noun case is the same
as an adjective? For example, could a word like húnwa of a hound (from huan,
hún-) be also translated as canine?

Thank you for any insight.

Jim

Seems like Yahoo has broken the translation text, it should be:

Varne winyamo ranne aldeonissen,
Ara falasi ailinion felle nye're,
Ar tere haranye ti'rielver
Milya esce lammaron ta'liryarion.

(' - an prolonged vowel)

A related language like Englush is to Dutch should not be that hard. Dutch
when spoken sounds like English meter/rythem but with German or like words
and not the often French ones English has adopted.
So one for one word translation should not remove to much from the meter and
feel of the poem but ..

Mike

Hello,

you drop the -r and add the pronominal ending, i.e. (i)tírielve.
 Thomas Ferencz


Let's discuss Eldarin languages - http://aglardh.middangeard.org.uk
Tolkien Wiktionary - http://www.eldarinwiki.com




________________________________
From: nachinkov <nachinkov@...>
To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, August 13, 2010 1:27:31 PM
Subject: [elfling] Present Perfect pl. with a pronoun?

Good day,

Trying translate one text to qenya, I found the following problem. Let's take an
verb "tir-". Perfect pl. will be: "itirier" or just "tirier". However I need to
translate "we have watched". Than, I should use an inclusive pronoun "-lve". So
how should I add "-lve" to a perfect form?

Thanks.



------------------------------------

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

A better case (pardon the pun) might the the 'mysterious' partitive plural,
which indicates something(s) from a group. Canine = things from the larger
group of dogs in general (hounds, in this case). No, not an adjective at
all, really, but easily used that way.

On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 5:05 PM, jacoishjr <jacoishjr@...> wrote:

>
>
> I was wondering if anybody could tell me if the possessive noun case is the
> same as an adjective? For example, could a word like húnwa of a hound (from
> huan, hún-) be also translated as canine?
>
> Thank you for any insight.
>
> Jim
>
>
>



--
I enjoy the massacre of ads. This sentence will slaughter ads without a
messy bloodbath.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "jacoishjr" <jacoishjr@...> wrote:
>
> I was wondering if anybody could tell me if the possessive noun case is the
same as an adjective? For example, could a word like húnwa of a hound (from
huan, hún-) be also translated as canine?
>
> Thank you for any insight.
>
> Jim
>

There clearly is a close connection between adjectives and the "possessive"
case. In "Quendi and Eldar" (WJ:368), Tolkien refers to "the adjectival suffix
_-va_", and provides the example _róma Oroméva_ 'Orome's horn'. One paragraph
later he calls this case "possessive-adjectival" (as opposed to the
"partitive-derivative" marked by _-o_).

Yours,
Mĺns

How would you say "there is..." as in there is a dog in my house? Does Ea count
as there is, since it was the word Eru used to create the universe?

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "xXRaZoRbladesAREmYfRiEnDsXx"
<elffanatic2000@...> wrote:
>
> How would you say "there is..." as in there is a dog in my house? Does Ea
count as there is, since it was the word Eru used to create the universe?
>

_Ea_ means 'be' in the sense "exist". No attested Quenya text seems to provides
a phrase corresponding exactly to "there is a dog".

Possibly you would not say "there is a dog" but "a dog is"; cf _ringa ná_ 'it is
cold', literally *'cold is' (VT49:23). Cf also the "Qenya" phrase _úye sére
indo-ninya_ 'my hearth resteth not' (LR:72), literally *'not-is rest heart-my'
-- in idiomatic English "there is no rest for my heart".

So perhaps *_roa coanyasse ná_ 'a dog is in my house'. (Apparently the _ná_ must
be positioned last, or else it would indicate an imperative.)

Yours,
Mĺns

My humble opinion is that it would be translated: Ná huo coanyasse. Ea huo
coanyasse being more permanent, meaning "There exists a dog in my house". The
difference between ná and ea is the same as the difference between spanish estar
and ser.
 
Jim




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

'Ea' is stated in the Silmarillion/Book of Lost Tales as meaning  'Let these
things be.'  I also saw it used in the phrase 'Ea Earendilion,' which was
translated by the phrases' creator as 'Let there be a son of Earendil.'  I would
think that there are less formal or lofty ways of saying 'there is' present in
the Elven lexicon.  I do not have my references handy, or I would have more
information.

                         Crowbabe

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "xXRaZoRbladesAREmYfRiEnDsXx"
<elffanatic2000@...> wrote:
>
> How would you say "there is..." as in there is a dog in my house? Does Ea
count as there is, since it was the word Eru used to create the universe?
>

Hello,

I've continued working on my Elvish map of Middle-earth, with a lot of
help from Mĺns (bearing in mind that what errors remain are my own),
and we think it's ready for broader scrutiny.

I've posted the map at: http://3rin.gs/.  Pressing lower-case L
toggles between English and Elvish.  There's a small link in the lower
right that'll take you to the about page http://3rin.gs/about.html
which contains usage information and links.

There's a display of location links on the right which will bring up
articles loosely describing the construction of the names.  If you're
feeling proactive, my source documents are publicly editable
spreadsheets.

https://spreadsheets0.google.com/ccc?key=tm9BOhMMEVXDZSjNC0n0ORg&hl=en#gid=0

Any help reviewing the map would be greatly appreciated, given that
there remains a great deal of uncertainty about many of the
translations.

I've constructed a mailing list for the purpose of taking long
discussions off-list.
http://groups.google.com/group/ennorath

My thanks,
Kris Kowal

Hmmm ... you can't really treat ser and estar like I that, imho.

'estar' is something that is transient or temporary. 'ser' is something more
permanent.

El perro esta tranquilo. (temporarily)
El perro es tranquilo (permanently)

Says 'El perro es en mi casa' brings visions of a long dead puppy rotting in
the walls, whereas 'El perro esta en mi casa' means it can leave.

I think 'na' really carries both senses here. Perhaps there is someone else
who can be a bit more clear.
--
I enjoy the massacre of ads. This sentence will slaughter ads without a
messy bloodbath.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Googlemaps for Middle earth!


________________________________
"Only a fool ignores the words of his enemies...but only an idiot believes
them."
"Every man is plagued by his own demons; I just happen to be yours."
"There's nothing new under the sun.  Humanity has seen it all, done it all, and
made smarmy t-shirts about most of it."
"In the event of a crash landing, place your head between your knees and kiss
your arse good-bye."
"Ah, yes...my favourite book.  Chapter 3, verse 27:  The universe hates you.
Get over it."

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Crowbabe74" <crowbabe74@...> wrote:
>
> 'Ea' is stated in the Silmarillion/Book of Lost Tales as meaning  'Let these
things be.'  I also saw it used in the phrase 'Ea Earendilion,' which was
translated by the phrases' creator as 'Let there be a son of Earendil.'  I would
think that there are less formal or lofty ways of saying 'there is' present in
the Elven lexicon.  I do not have my references handy, or I would have more
information.
>
>                         Crowbabe

If there is a less lofty way to express 'there is' in Quenya, I don't think it
is known. But I do not see a reason why there must be one. Compare Genesis 1:3,
where God says "let there be light" -- a lofty enough command, expressed using
common English terms and grammar.

_Ea_ is translated literally 'exists' in VT:39. The less literal translation
'let these things be!' is also less ambigous than the simple imperative form
'be!' -- that the imperative of _ea_ would be identical to the
infinitive/present form is completely predictable according to the grammar of
Quenya.

Yours,
Mĺns

I would think that it could possibly be translated either way depending on what
precisely you mean. I've always thought of the difference between ëa and ná as
being that ëa means exist and ná is simply a linking verb that links something
to it's state. So if you think of the sentence as "a dog exists and it is in my
house" you would use Ă«a, but if you think of "in my house" simply as the state
you're trying to convey that the dog is in you would use ná.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I've never heard of anything in Tolkien's writings
that indicates that permanence has any factor in whether to use ëa or ná.
Rather they're just two separate senses for which English uses the verb to be.

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Phillip Wayne <exuyangi@...> wrote:
>
> Hmmm ... you can't really treat ser and estar like I that, imho.
>
> 'estar' is something that is transient or temporary. 'ser' is something more
> permanent.
>
> El perro esta tranquilo. (temporarily)
> El perro es tranquilo (permanently)
>
> Says 'El perro es en mi casa' brings visions of a long dead puppy rotting in
> the walls, whereas 'El perro esta en mi casa' means it can leave.
>
> I think 'na' really carries both senses here. Perhaps there is someone else
> who can be a bit more clear.
> --
> I enjoy the massacre of ads. This sentence will slaughter ads without a
> messy bloodbath.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm sorry but this is wrong. My native is Spanish and "el perro es en mi casa"
means nothing at all, it's just plain wrong, ungrammatical. The only way to say
it is "El perro está en mi casa" and it means that the dog is (presently) in the
house.

"estar" has many many meanings, but the main one indicates physical existence or
something that is occupying a space.
"El coche está en el garage" The car is in the garage.
"Estoy en el colegio" I'm at school.

Spanish does not use "estar" in this case, so the analogy is weak. We use "hay"
that's a different thing... it's related to french "il y a".

I would think that this phrase would use "ná" as has been posted above, this is
the same construction used in Classical Greek, so it has some good ground. I
would translate it

huo coanyasse ná

as some else did above.

Yes, strictly using canon I would say the verb would be:

itírielme, itíriemme, itírielve

depending on the quality of "we" you want to use.

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, TF <percival64@...> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> you drop the -r and add the pronominal ending, i.e. (i)tírielve.
>  Thomas Ferencz
>
>
> Let's discuss Eldarin languages - http://aglardh.middangeard.org.uk
> Tolkien Wiktionary - http://www.eldarinwiki.com
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: nachinkov <nachinkov@...>
> To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Fri, August 13, 2010 1:27:31 PM
> Subject: [elfling] Present Perfect pl. with a pronoun?
>
> Good day,
>
> Trying translate one text to qenya, I found the following problem. Let's take
an
> verb "tir-". Perfect pl. will be: "itirier" or just "tirier". However I need
to
> translate "we have watched". Than, I should use an inclusive pronoun "-lve".
So
> how should I add "-lve" to a perfect form?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> --
> Manager address: elfling-owner@yahoogroups.com
> Unsub address: elfling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Elfling welcome: http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea/elfling.html
> Elfling FAQ: http://nellardo.com/lang/elf/faq.htmlYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I posted a translation question on Yahoo and received an answer. The person who
answered asked that I double-check their answer.


Here's the writing I wanted translated:

"Spirits of the water
Grant me your favor.
Allow me to flood
This world with your might.

Wash away that which
Blocks your path
I am your vessel
Your servant."


Here's the answer I got:

ëalar i néno
á lavë nye mánalda
á lavë nye luita
ambar sina melehteldanen

á ausovë ita
tapë tiëlda
Nanye hroalda
núrolda.


Is it correct?

okay, im new to quenya and just got my knowledge from Pesch's book titled
Elbisch.

the first line seems to me very good translated "ealar i neeno" (spirits of the
water).

the use of "nye" might be confusing , because one could think of "lavenye" as
"I do permit" ... so id suggest to drop the "nye" and let it to be understood by
context.

i found no entry for maanalda in the dictionary , neither for "luita"
and for might i found meletya as derived from meletyalda ....

ëalar i néno
á lavë nye mánalda
á lavë nye luita
ambar sina melehteldanen





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> okay, im new to quenya and just got my knowledge from Pesch's book
> titled Elbisch.
(...)
> the use of "nye" might be confusing , because one could think of
> "lavenye" as
> "I do permit" ... so id suggest to drop the "nye" and let it to be
> understood by context.

Which illustrates that Pesch is rather limited in scope... Tolkien has
found a very nice way of preventing exactly that problem - the pronoun
gets attached to the imperative particle, as in _ámen anta_ 'give us' - so
_*ánye lave_ 'grant me' would be the wording of choice.

* Thorsten

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Marissa" <flamesofdeath01@...> wrote:
>
> I posted a translation question on Yahoo and received an answer. The person
who answered asked that I double-check their answer.
>
>
> Here's the writing I wanted translated:
>
> "Spirits of the water
> Grant me your favor.
> Allow me to flood
> This world with your might.
>
> Wash away that which
> Blocks your path
> I am your vessel
> Your servant."
>
>
> Here's the answer I got:
>
> ëalar i néno
> á lavë nye mánalda
> á lavë nye luita
> ambar sina melehteldanen
>
> á ausovë ita
> tapë tiëlda
> Nanye hroalda
> núrolda.
>
>
> Is it correct?
>
I think it might be better to say

_á lava nin_  using the imperative form of the verb, and then the Dative.  So it
is literally  _Grant to-me_  which, after all is what we mean.  English so often
leaves words out as understood, this very phrase is leaving out an understood
_you_ at the beginning.

Tuilinde

Thorsten wrote:

  > Tolkien has found a very nice way of preventing exactly that problem
- the pronoun
gets attached to the imperative particle, as in _ámen anta_ 'give us' - so
_*ánye lave_ 'grant me' would be the wording of choice.

Maybe _ánin lave_ with a dative pronoun?

Of course, grammar must often be conjectural, but I tend to assume that
_lav-_ "allow" would have as its direct object _what is permitted_,
while _the one that receives the permission_ is referred to in the dative.

- HKF

Okay, one of my friends wants to get a tattoo in Sindarin meaning "Through
Thorns to the Stars", which I'm to design.  I'm no great linguist, but I have a
(probably awful) initial translation of:

"Tre'erig an elenath".

'Tre' being a prefix indicating 'through' (but 'completeness' when prefixed to a
verb), from Ety/392

'Erig' being the plural of 'ereg', meaning 'holly-tree' or 'thorn', from
Ety/356, S/431

'an' being the prep. 'to' or 'towards', from LotR/II:IV, UT/39, SD/129-31

and

'Elenath' being a collective noun meaning 'the starry hosts of heaven',
LotR/II:I, RGEO/73-75, WJ/363


Could you check my translation and correct what are sure to be many, many
errors?

Cheers.

Helge K. Fauskanger scripsit:

> Thorsten wrote:

  >> Tolkien has found a very nice way of preventing exactly that problem
> - the pronoun
> gets attached to the imperative particle, as in
> _ámen anta_ 'give us' - so
> _*ánye lave_ 'grant me' would be the wording of choice.

> Maybe _ánin lave_ with a dative pronoun?

> Of course, grammar must often be conjectural,
> but I tend to assume that _lav-_ "allow" would
> have as its direct object _what is permitted_,
> while _the one that receives the permission_ is
> referred to in the dative.

In Latin there is double accusative. We cannot
tell how the idiom is in Quenya.

Lukas