Ok, I just tried to start learning Quenya via Mr. Renks Course Book.  But I've
run into an old nemesis of mine.  I seem incapable of simply opening a text book
and learning.  I need someone there to question when I do not understand.

Now, I fully understand that the vast majority of others have little or no
problem learning from a book.  I just have a hard time processing things that
way.  I need to be able to handle an manipulate what I'm trying to learn.

Than having been stated, dose anyone on the board have any suggestions that may
help me actually be able to use Mr. Renks Course Book?

"I am my beloved's, and my beloved is mine:

Aiya Mitchell,

How about...

Nyë melmenyáva na, ar melmenya nyeva na,



   "Nyeva" (mine) could also be constructed using different combinations of the
personal pronoun and either the possessive or genitive  case, e.g. Neo or Nio
etc.  (since third age quenya blurred the distinction).

To be fair, 'nye' by itself is not very much used for 'I', and according to
Helga's wordlist it was quickly abandoned,  but I like it for rhythm and
clarity.  "I am" could also be nanye or nan. But "Inye" means 'even I". Looking
forward to the result.

Alasse,

Evandil

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Slick <mitchell.willie@...> wrote:
>
> A friend recently came to me wanting a verse from the bible translated into
> Quenya. I was in a half-awake stupor when I was asked, so naturally I
> muttered something resembling "sure. no problem." I've since run into
> difficulties, however.
>
> The verse in question is Song of Solomon 6:3, which reads "I am my
> beloved's, and my beloved is mine: he feedeth among the lillies."  I am only
> an amateur linguist with passing understanding of Quenya, and I had no idea
> the first part of that verse would be so difficult. I've searched the
> internet and all the resources available to me off-line as well, and I still
> have no idea how to best word this verse.
>
> First, everything pointed at suffixes (one suffix for "I", one for
> possession, one for love, etc) and that seemed like the wrong path to take.
> Then I agonized over the choice of "nan" for "I am" when "ilyë" seemed (if I
> could find the proper verbs to accompany it) more poetic.
>
> Then came the search for "beloved." I found two possibilities: melmenya for
> "my love" seemed the obvious choice until I stumbled across "muinë" on a
> website in glosses for things like "beloved king" and "beloved sister." I
> couldn't find sources for either, so I'm torn on which is more accurate for
> this verse.
>
> I then looked at possessives, and thought I had it figured out. "melmenyava"
> (if I did that correctly) would seem to mean "of my love" and has the
> benefit of sounding pretty when rolling off the tongue. There is always the
> possibility that I've found a way to mess that up, though. It left me with
> "Ilyë melmenyava" which, to my sleep-deprived brain just says "I of-my-love"
> or "I belonging-to-my-love", and though it sounds gorgeous, I'm not sure
> it's anywhere close to correct.
>
> I'm pretty sure I can manage the last part about lillies and feeding on my
> own, but can anyone assist me in finding a way to translate the first
> section, or point me to things I might have missed?
>
> Thanks for your time!
> --Mitchell
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hello,

perhaps the simplest way is to get involved in a discussion board/forum, such as
www.parendili.org or Aglardh, the link of which you can find in my signature -
and there are others, too, if you search the net.

  Thomas Ferencz


Let's discuss Eldarin languages - http://aglardh.middangeard.org.uk
Tolkien Wiktionary - http://www.eldarinwiki.com




________________________________
From: Algoroth Draconis <algoroth_draconis@...>
To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, June 4, 2010 10:59:12 PM
Subject: [elfling] Beginning the book work

Ok, I just tried to start learning Quenya via Mr. Renks Course Book.  But I've
run into an old nemesis of mine.  I seem incapable of simply opening a text book
and learning.  I need someone there to question when I do not understand.

Now, I fully understand that the vast majority of others have little or no
problem learning from a book.  I just have a hard time processing things that
way.  I need to be able to handle an manipulate what I'm trying to learn.

Than having been stated, dose anyone on the board have any suggestions that may
help me actually be able to use Mr. Renks Course Book?



------------------------------------

--
Manager address: elfling-owner@yahoogroups.com
Unsub address: elfling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

you can question us anytime, I guess




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks so much for the input!

If both "nyë" and "nanye" could each replace the "inyë" in my example and be
linguistically adequate from a poetic standpoint, I think I'll go with your
suggestion of "nyë" as it sounds much more beautiful than "nanye" in my
opinion.

As this will eventually be a tattoo for a religious LotR fan, I'm very
thankful that the Professor designed the tengwar in such a way that whatever
sounds beautiful will look beautiful as well; I've discovered if I can sing
it, and it sounds pretty, it will inevitably calligraph very well.

I'll be sure to show off the finished work after I hand-pen it. This
experience has really showed me that I need to get back into these
languages. I used to love them, but I've forgotten everything I knew. lol

On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 2:16 AM, winterhavik <winterhavik@...> wrote:

>
>
> "I am my beloved's, and my beloved is mine:
>
> Aiya Mitchell,
>
> How about...
>
> Nyë melmenyáva na, ar melmenya nyeva na,
>
> "Nyeva" (mine) could also be constructed using different combinations of
> the personal pronoun and either the possessive or genitive case, e.g. Neo or
> Nio etc. (since third age quenya blurred the distinction).
>
> To be fair, 'nye' by itself is not very much used for 'I', and according to
> Helga's wordlist it was quickly abandoned, but I like it for rhythm and
> clarity. "I am" could also be nanye or nan. But "Inye" means 'even I".
> Looking forward to the result.
>
> Alasse,
>
> Evandil
>
>
> --- In elfling@yahoogroups.com <elfling%40yahoogroups.com>, Slick
> <mitchell.willie@...> wrote:
> >
> > A friend recently came to me wanting a verse from the bible translated
> into
> > Quenya. I was in a half-awake stupor when I was asked, so naturally I
> > muttered something resembling "sure. no problem." I've since run into
> > difficulties, however.
> >
> > The verse in question is Song of Solomon 6:3, which reads "I am my
> > beloved's, and my beloved is mine: he feedeth among the lillies." I am
> only
> > an amateur linguist with passing understanding of Quenya, and I had no
> idea
> > the first part of that verse would be so difficult. I've searched the
> > internet and all the resources available to me off-line as well, and I
> still
> > have no idea how to best word this verse.
> >
> > First, everything pointed at suffixes (one suffix for "I", one for
> > possession, one for love, etc) and that seemed like the wrong path to
> take.
> > Then I agonized over the choice of "nan" for "I am" when "ilyë" seemed
> (if I
> > could find the proper verbs to accompany it) more poetic.
> >
> > Then came the search for "beloved." I found two possibilities: melmenya
> for
> > "my love" seemed the obvious choice until I stumbled across "muinë" on a
> > website in glosses for things like "beloved king" and "beloved sister." I
> > couldn't find sources for either, so I'm torn on which is more accurate
> for
> > this verse.
> >
> > I then looked at possessives, and thought I had it figured out.
> "melmenyava"
> > (if I did that correctly) would seem to mean "of my love" and has the
> > benefit of sounding pretty when rolling off the tongue. There is always
> the
> > possibility that I've found a way to mess that up, though. It left me
> with
> > "Ilyë melmenyava" which, to my sleep-deprived brain just says "I
> of-my-love"
> > or "I belonging-to-my-love", and though it sounds gorgeous, I'm not sure
> > it's anywhere close to correct.
> >
> > I'm pretty sure I can manage the last part about lillies and feeding on
> my
> > own, but can anyone assist me in finding a way to translate the first
> > section, or point me to things I might have missed?
> >
> > Thanks for your time!
> > --Mitchell
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I do have another question: why did you use the "na" at the end of the
sections? When I first started looking at this, I found the noun for love,
"melmë" and added the "nya" to indicate possession, "my love". When I
lengthened the stem vowel and added -va, I was using examples like this:

"rocco i aranwa" = "horse - the king (possessive)" = the horse of the king =
king's horse

in that case, "nyë melmenyáva" would, if it's possible, be equivalent to "I
of my lover", indicating that the latter (melmenya) was in possession of the
former (nyë), and therefore the copula at the end would just be emphatic,
aye?

Or am I missing something important?

On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 2:16 AM, winterhavik <winterhavik@...> wrote:

>
>
> "I am my beloved's, and my beloved is mine:
>
> Aiya Mitchell,
>
> How about...
>
> Nyë melmenyáva na, ar melmenya nyeva na,
>
> "Nyeva" (mine) could also be constructed using different combinations of
> the personal pronoun and either the possessive or genitive case, e.g. Neo or
> Nio etc. (since third age quenya blurred the distinction).
>
> To be fair, 'nye' by itself is not very much used for 'I', and according to
> Helga's wordlist it was quickly abandoned, but I like it for rhythm and
> clarity. "I am" could also be nanye or nan. But "Inye" means 'even I".
> Looking forward to the result.
>
> Alasse,
>
> Evandil
>
>
> --- In elfling@yahoogroups.com <elfling%40yahoogroups.com>, Slick
> <mitchell.willie@...> wrote:
> >
> > A friend recently came to me wanting a verse from the bible translated
> into
> > Quenya. I was in a half-awake stupor when I was asked, so naturally I
> > muttered something resembling "sure. no problem." I've since run into
> > difficulties, however.
> >
> > The verse in question is Song of Solomon 6:3, which reads "I am my
> > beloved's, and my beloved is mine: he feedeth among the lillies." I am
> only
> > an amateur linguist with passing understanding of Quenya, and I had no
> idea
> > the first part of that verse would be so difficult. I've searched the
> > internet and all the resources available to me off-line as well, and I
> still
> > have no idea how to best word this verse.
> >
> > First, everything pointed at suffixes (one suffix for "I", one for
> > possession, one for love, etc) and that seemed like the wrong path to
> take.
> > Then I agonized over the choice of "nan" for "I am" when "ilyë" seemed
> (if I
> > could find the proper verbs to accompany it) more poetic.
> >
> > Then came the search for "beloved." I found two possibilities: melmenya
> for
> > "my love" seemed the obvious choice until I stumbled across "muinë" on a
> > website in glosses for things like "beloved king" and "beloved sister." I
> > couldn't find sources for either, so I'm torn on which is more accurate
> for
> > this verse.
> >
> > I then looked at possessives, and thought I had it figured out.
> "melmenyava"
> > (if I did that correctly) would seem to mean "of my love" and has the
> > benefit of sounding pretty when rolling off the tongue. There is always
> the
> > possibility that I've found a way to mess that up, though. It left me
> with
> > "Ilyë melmenyava" which, to my sleep-deprived brain just says "I
> of-my-love"
> > or "I belonging-to-my-love", and though it sounds gorgeous, I'm not sure
> > it's anywhere close to correct.
> >
> > I'm pretty sure I can manage the last part about lillies and feeding on
> my
> > own, but can anyone assist me in finding a way to translate the first
> > section, or point me to things I might have missed?
> >
> > Thanks for your time!
> > --Mitchell
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> To be fair, 'nye' by itself is not very much used for 'I', and
according to Helga's wordlist it was quickly abandoned,

Please don't inflict a sex change on me...I can't afford the surgery...

This said, independent possessive pronouns are admittedly problem in
Quenya. The word _ninya_, used as a semi-suffix for "I" in Fíriel's song
(indo-ninya "my heart"), may perhaps be used independently as well.

Other such pronouns could then be constructed by adding -ya to a dative
pronoun (cf. _nin_ "for me").

_Meldanya ná ninya ar inye senya_ "my beloved is mine and I (am) his"?

The original Hebrew _dodi li we-ani lo_ is literally "my beloved (is)
to/for me and I (am) to/for him", i.e., we belong to one another.
Literally rendered into Quenya: _Meldanya nin ar inye sen_.

- HKF

I agree, in my suggestion I used dative instead of possessive for "mine".

But I would use "melya" which is "dear, beloved" as in Melyana, Melian. Couldn't
that be so?

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@...>
wrote:
>
>  > To be fair, 'nye' by itself is not very much used for 'I', and
> according to Helga's wordlist it was quickly abandoned,
>
> Please don't inflict a sex change on me...I can't afford the surgery...
>
> This said, independent possessive pronouns are admittedly problem in
> Quenya. The word _ninya_, used as a semi-suffix for "I" in Fíriel's song
> (indo-ninya "my heart"), may perhaps be used independently as well.
>
> Other such pronouns could then be constructed by adding -ya to a dative
> pronoun (cf. _nin_ "for me").
>
> _Meldanya ná ninya ar inye senya_ "my beloved is mine and I (am) his"?
>
> The original Hebrew _dodi li we-ani lo_ is literally "my beloved (is)
> to/for me and I (am) to/for him", i.e., we belong to one another.
> Literally rendered into Quenya: _Meldanya nin ar inye sen_.
>
> - HKF
>

hi! I'm new here... in order to help too I have another suggestion, please don't
be too cruel. I would suggest:

Nanye melyanyava, ar melyanya ná nin

Or you can rearrange this in any order. Literally it would be: "I am my
beloved's, and my beloved is for me". I'm thinking in the dative because of many
reasons, in Sindarin we have "edraith ammen" "our salvation" but lit. "salvation
for us", also in latin esse+dative is a kind of possessive construction, "mihi
nomen est..." and so you bypass the need to create an artificial independent
pronoun.

I hope this helps in any way, and if it doesn't at least it was interesting to
try. Maybe it'll give something to think about. I'm open to observations or
questions.

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Slick <mitchell.willie@...> wrote:
>
> I do have another question: why did you use the "na" at the end of the
> sections? When I first started looking at this, I found the noun for love,
> "melmë" and added the "nya" to indicate possession, "my love". When I
> lengthened the stem vowel and added -va, I was using examples like this:
>
> "rocco i aranwa" = "horse - the king (possessive)" = the horse of the king =
> king's horse
>
> in that case, "nyë melmenyáva" would, if it's possible, be equivalent to "I
> of my lover", indicating that the latter (melmenya) was in possession of the
> former (nyë), and therefore the copula at the end would just be emphatic,
> aye?
>
> Or am I missing something important?
>
> On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 2:16 AM, winterhavik <winterhavik@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > "I am my beloved's, and my beloved is mine:
> >
> > Aiya Mitchell,
> >
> > How about...
> >
> > Nyë melmenyáva na, ar melmenya nyeva na,
> >
> > "Nyeva" (mine) could also be constructed using different combinations of
> > the personal pronoun and either the possessive or genitive case, e.g. Neo or
> > Nio etc. (since third age quenya blurred the distinction).
> >
> > To be fair, 'nye' by itself is not very much used for 'I', and according to
> > Helga's wordlist it was quickly abandoned, but I like it for rhythm and
> > clarity. "I am" could also be nanye or nan. But "Inye" means 'even I".
> > Looking forward to the result.
> >
> > Alasse,
> >
> > Evandil
> >
> >
> > --- In elfling@yahoogroups.com <elfling%40yahoogroups.com>, Slick
> > <mitchell.willie@> wrote:
> > >
> > > A friend recently came to me wanting a verse from the bible translated
> > into
> > > Quenya. I was in a half-awake stupor when I was asked, so naturally I
> > > muttered something resembling "sure. no problem." I've since run into
> > > difficulties, however.
> > >
> > > The verse in question is Song of Solomon 6:3, which reads "I am my
> > > beloved's, and my beloved is mine: he feedeth among the lillies." I am
> > only
> > > an amateur linguist with passing understanding of Quenya, and I had no
> > idea
> > > the first part of that verse would be so difficult. I've searched the
> > > internet and all the resources available to me off-line as well, and I
> > still
> > > have no idea how to best word this verse.
> > >
> > > First, everything pointed at suffixes (one suffix for "I", one for
> > > possession, one for love, etc) and that seemed like the wrong path to
> > take.
> > > Then I agonized over the choice of "nan" for "I am" when "ilyë" seemed
> > (if I
> > > could find the proper verbs to accompany it) more poetic.
> > >
> > > Then came the search for "beloved." I found two possibilities: melmenya
> > for
> > > "my love" seemed the obvious choice until I stumbled across "muinë" on a
> > > website in glosses for things like "beloved king" and "beloved sister." I
> > > couldn't find sources for either, so I'm torn on which is more accurate
> > for
> > > this verse.
> > >
> > > I then looked at possessives, and thought I had it figured out.
> > "melmenyava"
> > > (if I did that correctly) would seem to mean "of my love" and has the
> > > benefit of sounding pretty when rolling off the tongue. There is always
> > the
> > > possibility that I've found a way to mess that up, though. It left me
> > with
> > > "Ilyë melmenyava" which, to my sleep-deprived brain just says "I
> > of-my-love"
> > > or "I belonging-to-my-love", and though it sounds gorgeous, I'm not sure
> > > it's anywhere close to correct.
> > >
> > > I'm pretty sure I can manage the last part about lillies and feeding on
> > my
> > > own, but can anyone assist me in finding a way to translate the first
> > > section, or point me to things I might have missed?
> > >
> > > Thanks for your time!
> > > --Mitchell
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

...I hadn't even considered looking at the original Hebrew first. I'm also
not sure I'll ever understand pronouns in Quenya without taking a lot of
time to study the entire language in depth again. I enjoy the simplicity of
the literal render you've given, and will examine it calligraphically.

The individual wanting this translated doesn't care how accurate it is, but
*I* do. It'll bug me to death if it isn't as close to the original as it can
be, and I fear that without months of study, I've exhausted the breadth of
my knowledge on the topic. lol

Many thanks!

On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 5:53 AM, Helge K. Fauskanger <
helge.fauskanger@...> wrote:

>
>
> > To be fair, 'nye' by itself is not very much used for 'I', and
> according to Helga's wordlist it was quickly abandoned,
>
> Please don't inflict a sex change on me...I can't afford the surgery...
>
> This said, independent possessive pronouns are admittedly problem in
> Quenya. The word _ninya_, used as a semi-suffix for "I" in Fíriel's song
> (indo-ninya "my heart"), may perhaps be used independently as well.
>
> Other such pronouns could then be constructed by adding -ya to a dative
> pronoun (cf. _nin_ "for me").
>
> _Meldanya ná ninya ar inye senya_ "my beloved is mine and I (am) his"?
>
> The original Hebrew _dodi li we-ani lo_ is literally "my beloved (is)
> to/for me and I (am) to/for him", i.e., we belong to one another.
> Literally rendered into Quenya: _Meldanya nin ar inye sen_.
>
> - HKF
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi,

The 'na' at the end of the sentence is the word 'am'. In Thorston's Quenya
course, he notes that the 'na' tends to migrate to the end of sentences in
quenya. This I have also found to be more pleasing to my own tyave.  But tyave
is different from person to person.

Enjoy the process-

Evandil,

ps - sorry to Helge for putting the 'a' on your name. Now i know a tiny bit more
about Norwegian!


--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Slick <mitchell.willie@...> wrote:
>
> I do have another question: why did you use the "na" at the end of the
> sections? When I first started looking at this, I found the noun for love,
> "melmë" and added the "nya" to indicate possession, "my love". When I
> lengthened the stem vowel and added -va, I was using examples like this:
>
> "rocco i aranwa" = "horse - the king (possessive)" = the horse of the king =
> king's horse
>
> in that case, "nyë melmenyáva" would, if it's possible, be equivalent to "I
> of my lover", indicating that the latter (melmenya) was in possession of the
> former (nyë), and therefore the copula at the end would just be emphatic,
> aye?
>
> Or am I missing something important?
>
> On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 2:16 AM, winterhavik <winterhavik@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > "I am my beloved's, and my beloved is mine:
> >
> > Aiya Mitchell,
> >
> > How about...
> >
> > Nyë melmenyáva na, ar melmenya nyeva na,
> >
> > "Nyeva" (mine) could also be constructed using different combinations of
> > the personal pronoun and either the possessive or genitive case, e.g. Neo or
> > Nio etc. (since third age quenya blurred the distinction).
> >
> > To be fair, 'nye' by itself is not very much used for 'I', and according to
> > Helga's wordlist it was quickly abandoned, but I like it for rhythm and
> > clarity. "I am" could also be nanye or nan. But "Inye" means 'even I".
> > Looking forward to the result.
> >
> > Alasse,
> >
> > Evandil
> >
> >
> > --- In elfling@yahoogroups.com <elfling%40yahoogroups.com>, Slick
> > <mitchell.willie@> wrote:
> > >
> > > A friend recently came to me wanting a verse from the bible translated
> > into
> > > Quenya. I was in a half-awake stupor when I was asked, so naturally I
> > > muttered something resembling "sure. no problem." I've since run into
> > > difficulties, however.
> > >
> > > The verse in question is Song of Solomon 6:3, which reads "I am my
> > > beloved's, and my beloved is mine: he feedeth among the lillies." I am
> > only
> > > an amateur linguist with passing understanding of Quenya, and I had no
> > idea
> > > the first part of that verse would be so difficult. I've searched the
> > > internet and all the resources available to me off-line as well, and I
> > still
> > > have no idea how to best word this verse.
> > >
> > > First, everything pointed at suffixes (one suffix for "I", one for
> > > possession, one for love, etc) and that seemed like the wrong path to
> > take.
> > > Then I agonized over the choice of "nan" for "I am" when "ilyë" seemed
> > (if I
> > > could find the proper verbs to accompany it) more poetic.
> > >
> > > Then came the search for "beloved." I found two possibilities: melmenya
> > for
> > > "my love" seemed the obvious choice until I stumbled across "muinë" on a
> > > website in glosses for things like "beloved king" and "beloved sister." I
> > > couldn't find sources for either, so I'm torn on which is more accurate
> > for
> > > this verse.
> > >
> > > I then looked at possessives, and thought I had it figured out.
> > "melmenyava"
> > > (if I did that correctly) would seem to mean "of my love" and has the
> > > benefit of sounding pretty when rolling off the tongue. There is always
> > the
> > > possibility that I've found a way to mess that up, though. It left me
> > with
> > > "Ilyë melmenyava" which, to my sleep-deprived brain just says "I
> > of-my-love"
> > > or "I belonging-to-my-love", and though it sounds gorgeous, I'm not sure
> > > it's anywhere close to correct.
> > >
> > > I'm pretty sure I can manage the last part about lillies and feeding on
> > my
> > > own, but can anyone assist me in finding a way to translate the first
> > > section, or point me to things I might have missed?
> > >
> > > Thanks for your time!
> > > --Mitchell
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I would chose not to rely on word formation or neologisms.

I would tackle it as:
A quata indolya óravalenen.

Using órava- verb that means "mercy, to have mercy" with the suffix for action
of a verb in derived verbs -le (cf. hanta-, hantale "thanksgiving"). Also, based
on considering "A vala Manwe" I would construct "A quata indolya".

So: Fill your mind/heart with mercy.

Hope it helps!

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Raphael Moras de Vasconcellos <raphael@...>
wrote:
>
> Dear members,
>
> I am since the 90's a fan of Tolkien work as a writer and language creator,
> and had already followed your list for some time years ago. Congratulations
> on the effort, it's a beautiful work.
>
> I am trying now to translate one of Buddha's quotes into Quenya, and have
> already researched a little bit. If it is interesting for anyone to help out
> an amateur, I would be very grateful.
>
> The english phrase is "Fill your mind with compassion". I've found the
> neologism _ofelme_ for simpathy within PPQ, but was not at all convinced.
> Along with some other research in elfing old messages, I've decided to use
> one good definition of compassion I've googled: understanding without
> judgement.
>
> So I started with the imperative form _á_ then the *fill* verb in the
> infinitive _quatë_. The noum *mind* _sáma_ adding the dative *your* _lya_
> gives _sámalya_. The noum *understanding, knowledge, intelligence* _hande_
> plus the instrumental _nen_ forming _handenen_ in the sense *with
> understanding*. The last piece, _awa, ava_ being a negation, and _namië_ the
> noum for *a single judgement*.
>
> Thus forming _Á quatë sámalya handenen avanámië_
>
> Thank you for your attention,
>
>
> Raphael Moras de Vasconcellos
> raphael@...
> http://raphaelmoras.wordpress.com
> http://raphaelmoras.carbonmade.com
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I will be one of those looking forward to helping contribute to any
growing corpus of Quenya writings.

In regards to the Wikipedia debacle, the folks at Wp have always tended
to be a bit on the prescriptivist side when it comes to what are
considered "reliable sources."  However, they have every right to do
with their site as they wish, and other projects, such as Wikia, have
certainly provided a nice outlet for the more experimental projects.

We know the Sindarin future tense is "-tha", and we know the Quenya future tense
is "-uva". They seem unconnected at first glance. Does any one have any ideas
about what they would have come from, and how they could have developed so
differently?

Hello everybody,

I'm new to this and I'd really like your help. I'm creating a short for a
roleplaying  game set in ME and I'd like to have a few texts and character names
in an authentic [as close as possible, of course] Sindarin. Here they are:

(1) “There was a goblin. Or a trickster, or a warrior. A nameless, terrible
thing, soaked in the blood of hundreds. The most feared being in all Beleriand.
Nothing could stop it, or hold it, or reason with it â€" one day a storm would
fall out of the sky and tear down your world.”

I came up with the following:

_Ennas na orch. Egor rindhir (rinc 'trick' + dîr 'man'), egor maethor. Rad
Ăş-eneth, raug, loen vi i hereg menig. I agoeol in uiran vi pan Beleriand.
Ăš-rad pul deri han, egor garo han, egor pedi na han - er arad alagos dannath a
rista i aradha lîn._

So, how bad it is? Is anything right?

(2) The text above is inscripted on the 4 sides of giant square iron box, a
prison named _Naudang_ ('Bound Iron'). Inside lies _Alagothodhir Ogoledhel_
(_alagos+tog+dîr_, 'Storm-bringer Evil-Elf') who was incarcerated by his twin
brother _Arathodhir_ (_arad+tog+dîr_, 'Day-Bringer'). Elsewhere,
_Thuringwethil_ seeks to realease her lover this prison, aided by the werewolves
_Mordraug_ ('Dark Wolf') and _Mandraug_ ('Ghost Wolf').

Can you tell me if any of those names are right?

Thanks,
Woods

Hello!

Sorry if this seems to be a rather silly question, but when writing Quenya is
there a specific way of distinguishing a noun from a proper noun?  The
distinction between starlight and somebody *named* Starlight, for example.

In specific I was thinking of the phenomenon death versus the personification
Death (as in 'Death's pallid hand', and so on).

Is there a way or is it a matter of context?

Thanks in advance!

Here is a french page which discusses the elements of the names, mostly suffixes

http://www.corpus-angel.com/site/MYTHOLOGIE/Celte/%28Celte%29NomElfique.htm

You can use Google translate if you don't understand french

These don't apply to the Quenya names of Men. Their names usually mean "friend
of", "servant of", "victor"

I remember a few names which are translated as proper nouns. For example huor is
translated as vigor. I don't know if that means that huor is a noun used in a
sentence.



>
>From: filmnoirkitty <tanni.of.vilya@...>
>To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Thu, July 1, 2010 4:01:48 PM
>Subject: [elfling] Nouns to Proper Nouns?
>
>  >
>>
>
>Hello!
>
>>Sorry if this seems to be a rather silly question, but when writing Quenya is
there a specific way of distinguishing a noun from a proper noun?  The
distinction between starlight and somebody *named* Starlight, for example.
>
>>In specific I was thinking of the phenomenon death versus the personification
Death (as in 'Death's pallid hand', and so on).
>
>>Is there a way or is it a matter of context?
>
>>Thanks in advance!
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

If you mean in Elvish script, no, there's no such thing as "capitals" in
tengwar.

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "filmnoirkitty" <tanni.of.vilya@...> wrote:
>
> Hello!
>
> Sorry if this seems to be a rather silly question, but when writing Quenya is
there a specific way of distinguishing a noun from a proper noun?  The
distinction between starlight and somebody *named* Starlight, for example.
>
> In specific I was thinking of the phenomenon death versus the personification
Death (as in 'Death's pallid hand', and so on).
>
> Is there a way or is it a matter of context?
>
> Thanks in advance!
>

We know that 'Death' personified is specifically "Nuru = Mandos" according to
Tolkien. For other nouns to Proper Nouns, one could tack on a gender-specific
suffix: -ion or -wë for males and -(r)iel or -(r)iën for females. Thus, to take
your Starlight example: silmë 'starlight' could become Silmeriën, Silmeriel, or
possibly even Silmwë (cf. Manwë from _mana_ 'blessed'), but I'm not sure if they
would be considered acceptable Quenya name constructions. Most Quenya names seem
to be derived from adjectives or are compounds of nouns and adjectives. You are
more likely to find someone named Silmerossë 'fine rain of starlight', which is
another name given to Teleprion.

Others will no doubt have their own suggestions about this.

Arthur

Hmmm hmmm hmmm.

All right, thanks to all who replied.

In an example of a name like Silmerossë it'd primarily be context, for example
introducing the character earlier in the prose ('He met an elf, and that elf's
name was Silmerossë'), I guess, whereas gender suffixes would (I assume) imply
the noun in question was a proper noun...

Of course effective storytelling would most likely require an introduction of
the characters AS characters in any case, effectively avoiding the issue I'm
seeing.

The gender suffixes are only ever applied to the names of sentient beings, yes?

Hello,

As in many things, it depends. For instance, the name _Voronwë_ also means
"steadfastness, loyalty, faithfulness", and cannot be distinguished from the
common noun.

On the other hand, names offer possibilities of expressing things differently
than regular nouns. The name _Eldandil_ "Elf's friend" could not be used as a
common noun (you'd probably say something like _Eldaron meldo_ "friend of Elves
/ Eldar").

For Death, the answer is simple: Death _is_ personalized in the Legendarium:
this is _Námo_ (better known as _Mandos_).

Best,
Damien

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "filmnoirkitty" <tanni.of.vilya@...> wrote:
>
> Hello!
>
> Sorry if this seems to be a rather silly question, but when writing Quenya is
there a specific way of distinguishing a noun from a proper noun?  The
distinction between starlight and somebody *named* Starlight, for example.
>
> In specific I was thinking of the phenomenon death versus the personification
Death (as in 'Death's pallid hand', and so on).
>
> Is there a way or is it a matter of context?
>
> Thanks in advance!
>

No, but he's not talking about that! He's asking if there's a way to
differentiate a name from a noun in Elvish script, as we do with capitals. And
no, there's not, not in Elvish script at least.

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "elhanan_austin" <elhanan_austin@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> We know that 'Death' personified is specifically "Nuru = Mandos" according to
Tolkien. For other nouns to Proper Nouns, one could tack on a gender-specific
suffix: -ion or -wë for males and -(r)iel or -(r)iën for females. Thus, to take
your Starlight example: silmë 'starlight' could become Silmeriën, Silmeriel, or
possibly even Silmwë (cf. Manwë from _mana_ 'blessed'), but I'm not sure if they
would be considered acceptable Quenya name constructions. Most Quenya names seem
to be derived from adjectives or are compounds of nouns and adjectives. You are
more likely to find someone named Silmerossë 'fine rain of starlight', which is
another name given to Teleprion.
>
> Others will no doubt have their own suggestions about this.
>
> Arthur
>

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "slasher_tb" <slasher_tb@...> wrote:
>
> No, but he's not talking about that! He's asking if there's a way to
differentiate a name from a noun in Elvish script, as we do with capitals. And
no, there's not, not in Elvish script at least.
>


Well, I was referring to the entirety of it, really.  Both in writing Quenya and
in the Tengwar script, though I didn't think Tengwar had capitals.  I was
willing to be wrong but, as you confirm, nope.  No capitals.

Tolkien made use of red capital tengwar in his Namarie published in 1968 : see
here http://www.diagnosticarea.com/img/namarie.JPG

The capital tengwar have the same "look" as the "small" tengwar, but are bigger
and the telco is written twice.

Edouard Kloczko

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "slasher_tb" <slasher_tb@...> wrote:
>
> No, but he's not talking about that! He's asking if there's a way to
differentiate a name from a noun in Elvish script, as we do with capitals. And
no, there's not, not in Elvish script at least.
>
> --- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "elhanan_austin" <elhanan_austin@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > We know that 'Death' personified is specifically "Nuru = Mandos" according
to Tolkien. For other nouns to Proper Nouns, one could tack on a gender-specific
suffix: -ion or -wë for males and -(r)iel or -(r)iën for females. Thus, to take
your Starlight example: silmë 'starlight' could become Silmeriën, Silmeriel, or
possibly even Silmwë (cf. Manwë from _mana_ 'blessed'), but I'm not sure if they
would be considered acceptable Quenya name constructions. Most Quenya names seem
to be derived from adjectives or are compounds of nouns and adjectives. You are
more likely to find someone named Silmerossë 'fine rain of starlight', which is
another name given to Teleprion.
> >
> > Others will no doubt have their own suggestions about this.
> >
> > Arthur
> >
>

slasher_tb scripsit:

> No, but he's not talking about that! He's asking
> if there's a way to differentiate a name from a
> noun in Elvish script, as we do with capitals.
> And no, there's not, not in Elvish script at
> least.

Why not use some calligraphic techique? E.g. to
make the first letter more ornate, or write the
entire name in a slightly different script, or..,
or... That would certainly be in linewith the
spirit of tengwar.

Lukas

Voronwë is only used as a name of a person in Quenya ; Ety, p. 353 "cf. name
Voronwe" ; the common name is _voronwie_.

Edouard Kloczko


--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "elendil_voronda" <d.bador@...> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> As in many things, it depends. For instance, the name _Voronwë_ also means
"steadfastness, loyalty, faithfulness", and cannot be distinguished from the
common noun.
>
> On the other hand, names offer possibilities of expressing things differently
than regular nouns. The name _Eldandil_ "Elf's friend" could not be used as a
common noun (you'd probably say something like _Eldaron meldo_ "friend of Elves
/ Eldar").
>
> For Death, the answer is simple: Death _is_ personalized in the Legendarium:
this is _Námo_ (better known as _Mandos_).
>
> Best,
> Damien
>
> --- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "filmnoirkitty" <tanni.of.vilya@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello!
> >
> > Sorry if this seems to be a rather silly question, but when writing Quenya
is there a specific way of distinguishing a noun from a proper noun?  The
distinction between starlight and somebody *named* Starlight, for example.
> >
> > In specific I was thinking of the phenomenon death versus the
personification Death (as in 'Death's pallid hand', and so on).
> >
> > Is there a way or is it a matter of context?
> >
> > Thanks in advance!
> >
>

Edouard Kloczko wrote :

> Voronwë is only used as a name of a person in Quenya ; Ety, p. 353 "cf.
name Voronwe" ; the common name is _voronwie_.

No, indeed we have _voronwë_ 'steadfastness, loyalty, faithfulness' in
UT:395:410n.43. This kind of noun formation is also suggested in PE17:189 with
the suffix "(-)nwe, Quenya = English -ness", that clearly offers the possibility
of nouns ending in _-nwe_ (as in UT).

David Giraudeau




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I beg to differ, I'm afraid.

Cf. Cirion's oath in _Unfinished Tales_, Part Three: The Third Age, II. Cirion
and Eorl, 3. Cirion and Eorl (p.395 of my edition):

>"_Vanda sina termaruva Elenna·nóreo alcar enyalien ar Elendil Vorondo voronwë.
[...]_
>
>And again he said in the Common Speech: This oath shall stand in memory of the
glory of the Land of the Star, and of the faith of Elendil the Faithful [...]"

And also Christopher's Tolkien explanations in note #43:

>"_voronwe_: `steadfastness, loyalty, faithfulness', the object of _enyalien_."

This account "belongs in the final period of [Christopher's] father's writing on
Middle-earth", according to the Introduction of _Unfinished Tales_ (which does
not necessarily mean that Tolkien rejected _voronwie_, as the two names have
relatively different meanings).

Best,
Damien


--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Kloczko" <ejk@...> wrote:
>
> Voronwë is only used as a name of a person in Quenya ; Ety, p. 353 "cf. name
Voronwe" ; the common name is _voronwie_.
>
> Edouard Kloczko
>
>
> --- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "elendil_voronda" <d.bador@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > As in many things, it depends. For instance, the name _Voronwë_ also means
"steadfastness, loyalty, faithfulness", and cannot be distinguished from the
common noun.
> >
> > On the other hand, names offer possibilities of expressing things
differently than regular nouns. The name _Eldandil_ "Elf's friend" could not be
used as a common noun (you'd probably say something like _Eldaron meldo_ "friend
of Elves / Eldar").
> >
> > For Death, the answer is simple: Death _is_ personalized in the Legendarium:
this is _Námo_ (better known as _Mandos_).
> >
> > Best,
> > Damien
> >
> > --- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "filmnoirkitty" <tanni.of.vilya@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello!
> > >
> > > Sorry if this seems to be a rather silly question, but when writing Quenya
is there a specific way of distinguishing a noun from a proper noun?  The
distinction between starlight and somebody *named* Starlight, for example.
> > >
> > > In specific I was thinking of the phenomenon death versus the
personification Death (as in 'Death's pallid hand', and so on).
> > >
> > > Is there a way or is it a matter of context?
> > >
> > > Thanks in advance!
> > >
> >
>

"Semper fidilis" in Quenya?

"De opresso liber" ?

Mike
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

Meaning and use of words is not the same thing.

Q. is not a "codification" of English.

Manwë and Voronwë have a meaning in Q. that's a fact, but that does not mean
that Voronwe can be used in grammatically correct Q. as a common noun. It
cannot. No more than Manwe can.

A sentence like "The blessedness of Frodo" would not involved the word "manwe"
for blessedness (in grammatically correct Q). Nor in "The steadfastness of
Elrond" would you use voronwë.

Manwe and Voronwe are names of people in Q. it is a fact.

Quenya is a complicated tongue. I created a group on facebook to study it. No
translations or play-game in it. Everyone is welcome except pseudonyms (e.g. no
Frodo Baggins, only real people).

http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/edouard.kloczko

have a good Elvish day,

E. Kloczko