Mae govannen Evenstar,

Really glad to see the publishing of this Sindarin-English dictionary!

However, is it possible to add the source or reference of the words in your next
edition, if available, which will make it much easier for the readers to further
scrutinize the backgrounds of the words.

For example, I found a word quite confusing me: _gail_ "fish". May I ask about
its source or reference?

Still, much appreciated for your works!

Benson Kochou Fang

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Evenstar <evenstar62@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Everybody!
>
> The Sindarin-English dictionary of Ambar Eldaron is available again in
> Royal and pocket format and e-book format.
>
> http://www.ambar-eldaron.com/english
>
> And always for free download in PDF format as well.
>
> The main feature we propose is the complete listing of all the
> English-Sindarin definitions, that is, when a Sindarin word has many
> definitions in English, we report all of them in the English-Sindarin
> section. So, under any of them, you'll find your word.
>
> **********************
>
> In turn, have a look on the illuminated version I did for the "Nativity"
> (Luke 2) by Helge Fauskanger
>
> Enjoy!
>
> Evenstar
> http://www.ambar-eldaron.com/english
> "Le Monde des Elfes"
>

I haven't seen anyone replying on this yet, but one option for 'cat' might be to
use 'raw dithen' (little lion); 'raw' (lion); tithen (little), lenited.

Ruth

"Tolo si a tiro in chairdh Eru"

"Come now and see the works of God"

Mae govannen,

I've been searching, but I did not find the source of this word. I
cannot exclude this is a mistake of my part. Sorry.

I'll correct it in the next edition of course.

Have a good week-end.

Evenstar
http://www.ambar-eldaron.com/english
"Le Monde des Elfes"



michiru_benson a écrit :
>
>
>
>
> Mae govannen Evenstar,
>
> Really glad to see the publishing of this Sindarin-English dictionary!
>
> However, is it possible to add the source or reference of the words in
> your next edition, if available, which will make it much easier for
> the readers to further scrutinize the backgrounds of the words.
>
> For example, I found a word quite confusing me: _gail_ "fish". May I
> ask about its source or reference?
>
> Still, much appreciated for your works!
>
> Benson Kochou Fang
>
> --- In elfling@yahoogroups.com <mailto:elfling%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Evenstar <evenstar62@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Everybody!
> >
> > The Sindarin-English dictionary of Ambar Eldaron is available again in
> > Royal and pocket format and e-book format.
> >
> > http://www.ambar-eldaron.com/english
> <http://www.ambar-eldaron.com/english>
> >
> > And always for free download in PDF format as well.
> >
> > The main feature we propose is the complete listing of all the
> > English-Sindarin definitions, that is, when a Sindarin word has many
> > definitions in English, we report all of them in the English-Sindarin
> > section. So, under any of them, you'll find your word.
> >
> > **********************
> >
> > In turn, have a look on the illuminated version I did for the
> "Nativity"
> > (Luke 2) by Helge Fauskanger
> >
> > Enjoy!
> >
> > Evenstar
> > http://www.ambar-eldaron.com/english
> <http://www.ambar-eldaron.com/english>
> > "Le Monde des Elfes"
> >
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thank you very much for the suggestion. I have decided to go with an invented
word, hopefully in a fashion in keeping with the spirit of Tolkien's procedures
for determining how a root might evolve in Sindarin. In particular, I am going
with _meorath Beruthiel din_ as the Sindarin translation of "Beruthiel's cats."
The conception is that _meorath_ would be the "class plural" form of a word that
preserves the onomatopoetic base of the same root that yields _meoita_ in early
Quenya.

Kirk

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Ruth Mayes <oselleruth@...> wrote:
>
> I haven't seen anyone replying on this yet, but one option for 'cat' might be
to use 'raw dithen' (little lion); 'raw' (lion); tithen (little), lenited.
>
> Ruth
>
> "Tolo si a tiro in chairdh Eru"
>
> "Come now and see the works of God"
>

Hello Kirk,

> I have been trying to formulate a reasonable translation of the phrase "cats
of Queen Beruthiel" or "Queen Beruthiel's cats" or just "Beruthiel's Cats" into
Sindarin or, failing that, Quenya.

I would rather go with Sindarin, because (as far as I know) Berúthiel's name is
not fully understood yet, so translating it in Quenya would be tricky. Of
course, as you thought, it is possible to adapt a foreign name to the phonology
of Quenya. Tolkien himself did just that several times: for instance _Hrísto_
"Christ" in the Litany of Loreto; cf. VT44:12.

But since Berúthiel appears to be Sindarin, it seems more natural to stick to
that language. "Queen" also is easy: the word _bereth_ is obvious, all the more
because it means primarily "spouse of a king" and only secondarily "queen". For
"cat", we'll have to look at older wordlists, since this word is not attested in
what has been published of the post-LR vocabulary.

> The closest I have managed to come would be something along the lines of the
mixed Quenya / Sindarin _meoiva Beruthiel_ (assuming that _Tevildo (vardo)
meoita_ is early Quenya for "Telvido (prince or lord) of cats," the last word of
which, I believe, would have become _meoiva_ in later Quenya, had the character
of Tevildo or even just the root _meoi_ survived in Tolkien's writings? Is there
some rule or convention for extrapolating how an early Quenya root like _meoi_
might have evolved into an equivlent Sindarin word?

It would be awfully uncertain to proceed like this. But fortunately, we don't
have to. First, there is a more recent Qenya name for cat: _yaulë_ (see Qenya
Wordlist in PE16:132 (which means the root for _meoi_ probably did not make it
to Tolkien's later elaborations, by the way).

Even better, we do have Goldogrin and even Noldorin words for "cat". The most
recent appears to be _muig_ in NW; cf. PE13:150. This word could be adopted
straight into Sindarin.

Best regards,
Damien

michiru_benson wrote:

> However, is it possible to add the source or reference of the words in your
next edition, if available, which will make it much easier for the readers to
further scrutinize the backgrounds of the words.

This wordlist is largely based on Das Sindarin Lexikon (www.sindarin.de), itself
based on Hiswelókë's Sindarin dictionary
(http://www.jrrvf.com/hisweloke/sindar/online/english.html). This dictionary is
the most interesting and serious work ever made about Sindarin on the Web. If
you need any information, look at it.

Cordially,

DG

Kirk,

Another Quenya word for "cat" is _yaule_, which fits better with the phonology
of "The Lord of the Rings".

The common practice with names seems to be to either translate them, or
transpose them phonologically. Since I know of no reliable translation of
"Berúthiel", transposition seems to be the best option. I suggest _Verúsiel_.

Thus _Yauli Verúsielo_, _Verúsielo yauli_ or possibly _Yauli Verúsielwa_. The
two first examples use the "genitive" case, the last one the "possessive" --
although these two cases in origin had different meaning, they are normally
interchangeable in classical Quenya.

If we attempt to reconstruct a Sindarin word based on Quenya _yaule_, we might
end up with *_iaul_. So perhaps _Iaulath Berúthiel_ would do?


Yours,
Måns


--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "magistertuus" <magistertuus@...> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I apologize in advance in the likely event that this or similar questions have
been posed before. I have, however, done some searching and have not found any
directly relevant, reliable information. As you can guess from what follows, I
am no expert and probably have gotten much wrong, but here is as far as I have
managed to go on my own:
>
> I have been trying to formulate a reasonable translation of the phrase "cats
of Queen Beruthiel" or "Queen Beruthiel's cats" or just "Beruthiel's Cats" into
Sindarin or, failing that, Quenya.
>
> The closest I have managed to come would be something along the lines of the
mixed Quenya / Sindarin _meoiva Beruthiel_ (assuming that _Tevildo (vardo)
meoita_ is early Quenya for "Telvido (prince or lord) of cats," the last word of
which, I believe, would have become _meoiva_ in later Quenya, had the character
of Tevildo or even just the root _meoi_ survived in Tolkien's writings? Is there
some rule or convention for extrapolating how an early Quenya root like _meoi_
might have evolved into an equivlent Sindarin word? If so, how would one go
about constructing such a Sindarin equivalent and expressing it in the
possesive?
>
> If not, is there a way to translate "Beruthiel's cats" into Quenya? If my
understanding is correct, _Beruthiel_ cannot directly be used in pure Quenya
texts at all, since the voiced plosive "B" doesn't occur in that language and,
as a queen of Gondor, her name is probably of Sindarin rather than Quenya
derivation? Is there some convention for treating such non-Quenya proper nouns
in Quenya texts, on the assumption that such occasions probably arise in the
context of using Quenya as the "Elvish Latin?"
>
> I would be very grateful for any expert advice in these matters.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Kirk
>

Hello Benson,

> However, is it possible to add the source or reference of the words in your
next edition, if available, which will make it much easier for the readers to
further scrutinize the backgrounds of the words.

I must say I am not that happy. This dictionary is mainly based on Ardalambion's
Sindarin wordlist, from which references have been removed, and errors added.

> For example, I found a word quite confusing me: _gail_ "fish". May I ask about
its source or reference?

And this is a good example. I have been particularly interested in names of
animals in Tolkien's Legendarium. In fact, an animal-related wordlist of mine
has just been published in "L'Arc & le Heaume" #2. More details here:
http://www.tolkiendil.com/asso/mag/mag2

I have scrutinized Tolkien's available corpus relatively closely, and I have not
found such a name as **gail for "fish". I can only guess it is a misspelling of
#_hail_, the (hypothesized) plural of N _hâl_ "fish" (see VT45:20).

Best regards,
Damien

Thanks to all who replied for generously lending your expertise.

Kirk

On 2010-02-15 iiipitaka wrote:
> There are at least two solid precedents for internal *-kj- > Q
> -ty-:
>
> meletya "mighty" (in meletya-lda "your mighty(ness)"), The War
> of the Jewels p. 369, from *mbelekjaa or *melekjaa, root
> M(B)ELEK, as in S beleg, Q Melkor, melehta (PE17:115).
>
> pitya "little", from *pikjaa, root PIKI, with multiple
> attestations: War of the Jewels p. 389
> (pityanaukor/pikinaukor), Pityafinwe (The Peoples of
> Middle-earth p. 353), pitya/pikina/pinke (PE17:115).
>
>

If the "tyelpetéma" is understood to "synchronically"
and phonetically be cardinal/pure dorso-palatals mid-way
between the velars assigned to the kalmatéma and the
alveolars/dentals assigned to the tinkotéma and if
you decide to derive graphemes for the tyelpetéma from
those of some other téma by applying a diacritic or
creating a digraph, it makes just as much "synchronical"
sense to base the derived graphemes on those of the
kalmatéma as basing them on those of the tinkotéma,
regardless of the proportion of etymological derivations
from palatalized velars or palatalized dentals/alveolars.

Also a quick check on the distribution of root-initial
back vs. front palatals in The Etymologies gives a
clear overweight for the back palatals, and even a
double count for KY over TY even if you disregard
KHY and SKY, so it might not surprise if Tolkien
occasionally or momentarilly hesitated about the
choice of base characters for the tyelpetéma even
if bringing etymological proportions into
consideration.

KHYAR-, KHYELES-, KYAB-, KYAR-, KYEL-, KYELEK-, SKYAP-

TYAL-, TYUL-,

KYELEP-/TYELEP-

It may be argued that the fact that T. probably
pronounced the sound(s) in question as palato-
alveolars may have tipped the scales in favor of
_ty_.  It should be remembered that the orthographies
of most Western European languages express sounds
which are historically derived from palatalized
velars with graphemes derived from graphemes
historically and/or synchronically used for velar
stops, regardless of how far towards alveolar/dental
sounds the universal tendencies of human articulatory
motorics have caused the former palatalized velars
to advance, which to T.'s mind, consciously or not,
may have made the supposed "synchronic" phonetics of
tyelpetéma sounds moot as an argument for or against
deriving tyelpetéma graphemes from kalmatéma graphemes.

/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch atte melroch dotte se
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
                  A h-ammen ledin i phith!                \ \
       __  ____ ____    _____________ ____ __   __ __     / /
       \ \/___ \\__ \  /___  _____/\ \\__ \\ \  \ \\ \   / /
       / /   / /  /  \    / /Melroch\ \_/ // /  / // /  / /
      / /___/ /_ / /\ \  / /Melarokko\_  // /__/ // /__/ /
     /_________//_/  \_\/ /Eowine __  / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
    ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
|| Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||

Ok, I know that there is an FAQ that is suggested prior to posting.  But as I
have more grammar questions than fan questions, here I go.  I have several
phrases in Quenya and Sindarin that I have used to try to assist in learning
Elvish.  Can someone go through them please and critique them for me please?

Quenya
the              = i
wolves           = narmote
have come        = tulier
and              = ar
bid | commanding = mauya
me               = nin
follow           = hilya

i narmote tulier ar mauya nin hilya

Sindarin
i       = the
draug   = wolf
gar-    = have
teli    = come
toi     = they are
conui   = commanding
aphad   = follow
nin     = me

i nraug garteli toi conui aphadnin


both
vanta | haitha     = walk
o     |  an-       = with
kaure | nifred     = fear
il-me | al-ned     = not-in
kaure | nifred     = fear

vanta o kaure, ilme kaure
haitha anifred, alned nifred

The next couple are for (Yes, I admit it) my time in Lord of the Rings Online. 
One is the Surname I have chosen for my Elven Characters, and the next is the
name of our "Kinship".

Hriivewaiwa
Winterwind

Kar Hriivenwaiwa
House of the Winterwind

And finaly, a freind of mine dared me to figure out how to say the following in
Quenya.  I hesitate to post it because I don't want the wrong idea to be given
here.  It was just an interesting challenge.  Here's the best I can come up
with.

Miquilis -Miquil-  = kisses -kiss-
hacca              = buttocks
-inya              = my

Miquil haccainya

I fully admit taking a liberty with "Miquilis" in assuming the root as being
"Miquil" but, it made sense to me.

Thanks in advance.

Greetings! Allow me to make some suggestions/corrections.

----- Original Message -----
From: Algoroth Draconis
To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2010 4:29 PM
Subject: [elfling] Beginning Class



Ok, I know that there is an FAQ that is suggested prior to posting. But as I
have more grammar questions than fan questions, here I go. I have several
phrases in Quenya and Sindarin that I have used to try to assist in learning
Elvish. Can someone go through them please and critique them for me please?

Quenya
the = i
==> right.

wolves = narmote
==> although _narmo_ is attested, its validity is uncertain. _ráka_ (pl.
_rákar_) would be better: this is the Q. equivalent of S. _draug_.

have come = tulier
==> should be _utúlie_ (pl. _utúlier_)

and = ar
==> right.

bid | commanding = mauya
==> ok.

me = nin
==> more precisely, _nin_ is "to me, for me", the dative form of _ni_"I" as
in independent word.

follow = hilya
==> ok.


Sindarin
i = the
draug = wolf
gar- = have
teli = come
toi = they are
conui = commanding
aphad = follow
nin = me

==> it's a bit more complicated than that. I'm not as good as David Salo or
even Helge Fauskanger in Sindarin, but let me make a couple of suggestions
(I'll let the others go from there): the verb "to come" in S. is _tol-_, the
past tense of which is probably _toll_, with assimilation of the past tense
marker _n_ to _l_, similar to Q. Also you have to take consonantal and
vocalic mutations into account when forming sentences.




Hriivewaiwa
Winterwind
==> hrívesúre would be better.

Kar Hriivenwaiwa
House of the Winterwind
==> house in Q. is _hroa

And finaly, a freind of mine dared me to figure out how to say the following
in Quenya. I hesitate to post it because I don't want the wrong idea to be
given here. It was just an interesting challenge. Here's the best I can come
up with.

Miquilis -Miquil- = kisses -kiss-
hacca = buttocks
-inya = my

Miquil haccainya

I fully admit taking a liberty with "Miquilis" in assuming the root as being
"Miquil" but, it made sense to me.

Thanks in advance.

==> I'll let the others take care of this.

-- VSV

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Algoroth Draconis" <algoroth_draconis@...>
wrote:
> vanta o kaure, ilme kaure
> haitha anifred, alned nifred
-----------
Just found the Noldorin "nifred pallor, fear", my mistake.

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Algoroth Draconis" <algoroth_draconis@...>
wrote:
>
> Ok, I know that there is an FAQ that is suggested prior to posting.  But as I
have more grammar questions than fan questions, here I go.  I have several
phrases in Quenya and Sindarin that I have used to try to assist in learning
Elvish.  Can someone go through them please and critique them for me please?
>
> Quenya
> the              = i
> wolves           = narmote
> have come        = tulier
> and              = ar
> bid | commanding = mauya
> me               = nin
> follow           = hilya
>
> i narmote tulier ar mauya nin hilya
-------------------------------
I've never seen such plural ending(is it?) as in "narmote"; "mauya" means
"compel" indeed, but it's more likely used impersonally to mean "it compels";
"nin" means "to me" rather than "me" in Quenya.
So an elf might comprehend "i narmote tulier ar mauya nin hilya" as "the wolf-te
have come and it compels to me(I feel compelled) to follow".

>
> Sindarin
> i       = the
> draug   = wolf
> gar-    = have
> teli    = come
> toi     = they are
> conui   = commanding
> aphad   = follow
> nin     = me
>
> i nraug garteli toi conui aphadnin
-----------------------------------
You just can't put them together like this.
"The wolves" would be "in droeg"; I don't know how is Sindarin perfect tense
like, but certainly "garteli" does not even agree with English grammar; "toi" is
pre-LotR Quenya indeed; "aphadnin" is a really impossible combination.

>
> both
> vanta | haitha     = walk
> o     |  an-       = with
> kaure | nifred     = fear
> il-me | al-ned     = not-in
> kaure | nifred     = fear
>
> vanta o kaure, ilme kaure
> haitha anifred, alned nifred
------------------------------
I can't recall any "me" for "in" nor any "nifred" for "fear".

> The next couple are for (Yes, I admit it) my time in Lord of the Rings Online.
One is the Surname I have chosen for my Elven Characters, and the next is the
name of our "Kinship".
>
> Hriivewaiwa
> Winterwind
>
> Kar Hriivenwaiwa
> House of the Winterwind
----------------------------
I'd recommend "nossë" rather than "kar".

> And finaly, a freind of mine dared me to figure out how to say the following
in Quenya.  I hesitate to post it because I don't want the wrong idea to be
given here.  It was just an interesting challenge.  Here's the best I can come
up with.
>
> Miquilis -Miquil-  = kisses -kiss-
> hacca              = buttocks
> -inya              = my
>
> Miquil haccainya
>
> I fully admit taking a liberty with "Miquilis" in assuming the root as being
"Miquil" but, it made sense to me.
---------------------------------------------
There's already "miqu-" as the verb for "kiss" anyway.

> Thanks in advance.




-----------Morthegil o Ennorath

Suil!

_i nraug_: properly _i dhraug_ (singular) or _in droeg_ (plural)
_garteli_: we don't use the verb _gar-_ ("have") in this sense in sindarin
_*conui_: this is not a verb but a derived adjective from the name _Argonui_
_toi_: where did you get this word?
_aphadnin_: this is an incorrect contraction

I would translate your phrase as:

_(In) droeg tellir ar horthar nin hain aphadad._ "(The) wolves came and they
urge me to follow them."

(As far as I know there is no attested word for "command" in noldorin/sindarin,
so I used the verb _hortha-_ "urge on, speed")

_in_: "the" (plural)
_droeg_: "wolves" (< _draug_)
_tellir_: "they came" (_tol-_ + _-l-_ < _-n-_ + _-i-_ + _-r_)
_ar_: "and"
_horthar_: "they urge" (_hortha-_ + _-r_)
_nin_: "me"
_hain_: "them"
_aphadad_: "to follow" (_apahada-_ + _-d_) (gerundium)


Narbeleth

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Algoroth Draconis" <algoroth_draconis@...>
wrote:
>
> Sindarin
> i       = the
> draug   = wolf
> gar-    = have
> teli    = come
> toi     = they are
> conui   = commanding
> aphad   = follow
> nin     = me
>
> i nraug garteli toi conui aphadnin
>

Since PE 17, we have a relatively good picture how Tolkien modeled the
Sindarin past tense (as opposed to the Noldorin forms we've been
supplementing in their place before having this information).

> _tellir_: "they came" (_tol-_ + _-l-_ < _-n-_ + _-i-_ + _-r_)

That would be rather Noldorin. Sindarin primary verbs use an augmented
base vowel and then either stem lengthening or nasal infixtion. The
nearest relevant examples from Sindarin  would probably be

bal- > aval (PE17:131)
nor- > onur (PE17:168) and
car- > agor (WJ:415)

That would suggest

tol- > *udul

or something similar. Note that also in Quenya, the past tense of _tul-_
is attested as _tuule_ (SD:246) - with vowel lengthening, not with nasal
infixion or an ending _-ne_, so a form _?toll_ in Sindarin is unlikely, as
neither similar Sindarin verbs nor the Quenya verb show this behaviour.

* Thorsten

You are right, however we have _Fen Hollen_ (< _Fen Chollen_) in LotR, and if we
assume that the past participle is derived from the 3rd singular past tense form
(cf. _Haudh-en-Ndengin_ < _danc_ < _*dag-_ and _Talath Dirnen_ < _*tirn_ <
_*tir-_), i.e. _hollen_ comes from _*holl_ (< _*hol-_), a form _*toll_ (<
_*tol-_) is not that unlikely, is it?


Narbeleth

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Thorsten Renk <trenk@...> wrote:
>
>
>...a form _?toll_ in Sindarin is unlikely, as
> neither similar Sindarin verbs nor the Quenya verb show this behaviour.

Hello,

I recorded Átaremma, the Lord's Prayer in Quenya, at midnight, on the first hour
of Good Friday. The Quenya translation is by J.R.R. Tolkien (published in Vinyar
Tengwar #43). The video includes subtitles in Quenya, English, German,
Hungarian, Finnish and other languages:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc6Tuwu9KTM

May this Friday be Good for you.

Yours,

Petri Tikka aka Ondo Tambaro
http://www.petritikka.com

> You are right, however we have _Fen Hollen_ (< _Fen Chollen_) in LotR,
> and if we assume that the past participle is derived from the 3rd
> singular past tense form (cf. _Haudh-en-Ndengin_ < _danc_ < _*dag-_ and
>  _Talath Dirnen_ < _*tirn_ < _*tir-_), i.e. _hollen_ comes from _*holl_
>  (< _*hol-_), a form _*toll_ (< _*tol-_) is not that unlikely, is it?

But we know the past tense of _dag-_ - it is attested in PE17:131 as
_adhag_ and in PE17:131) as _adhanc_ - both forms show an augment - so
this argues against the notion that the past participle is formed from the
3rd person sg. past tense.

* Thorsten

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Thorsten Renk <trenk@...> wrote:
>
> > You are right, however we have _Fen Hollen_ (< _Fen Chollen_) in
LotR,
> > and if we assume that the past participle is derived from the 3rd
> > singular past tense form (cf. _Haudh-en-Ndengin_ < _danc_ < _*dag-_
and
> >  _Talath Dirnen_ < _*tirn_ < _*tir-_), i.e. _hollen_ comes from
_*holl_
> >  (< _*hol-_), a form _*toll_ (< _*tol-_) is not that unlikely, is
it?
>
> But we know the past tense of _dag-_ - it is attested in PE17:131 as
> _adhag_ and in PE17:131) as _adhanc_ - both forms show an augment - so
> this argues against the notion that the past participle is formed from
the
> 3rd person sg. past tense.

Point one: PE17:131 does not specify that "adhag", "adhanc", and
"adharch" are past tenses.  That's a plausible interpretation, but not
one that is actually stated in the text.  In fact, of those three, only
"adhanc" fits with known patterns; *adaakee ought to produce **adhog,
not "adhag", and the intrusive "r" in "adharch"  is really unaccountable
(unless it's a misreading of "adhanch", and I'd prefer not to postulate
misreadings unless there's a somewhat better reason to do so).

Point two: as the forms show, the root in this verb is clearly ÃDAK
and not ÃNDAK; a medial -nd- should give us -n(n)- (e.g. **an(n)anc)
and not -dh- as in "adhanc".  So it's not even certain that we're
looking at the same verb -- or even that dak- in that sketch represents
a real Sindarin verb, rather than a useful set of consonants for
exploring possible developments from a stop-initial/stop-final CVC root.
The very vague nature of the sketch, suggesting a train of ideas being
set down on paper without a fixed conclusion, would not persuade me to
draw any absolute ideas about the nature of Sindarin from it.

Point three: It's true that in PE17, the predominant type of Sindarin
past tense for CVC roots is one with sund—ma both prefixed to the
root and lengthened within the root itself.  This represents a fusing of
two originally distinct types: the past tense with lengthened vowel, and
the perfect tense with prefixed sund—ma (see PE17:93 on the past
tense of menta-).

This formation contrasts with Etymologies, where the predominating type
of past tense is one with nasal infixion (where possible: normally
before stop-final roots).  Indeed, with respect to the root NDAK,
Etymologies (LR:375) shows an "Old Noldorin" past tense ndanke.  Was
this formation entirely superseded in the 1950s?  Evidently not, as we
find in PE17:42 the verb echant explained (as expected) as from
*et-kante, root KAT.  An interesting note suggests that an alternative
form edagant  (et + akante) existed, or might exist (implying that a
prefixed past tense agant was available for the verb cad-: in other
words, nasal-infixion and prefixed sund—ma.

Other nasal-infixion pasts in PE17 include anu, anw- "went away", root
ÃAWA (p. 148) and a verb covad- with past tense covant (pp. 16, 158);
here the n-infixion takes place before a verbal suffix -ad-.  And with
nasal-suffix (because the stem ÃU is not stop-final) we have œnen
"I didn't" (p. 145).

If we turn for a moment to past-tense formations in Quenya, we will find
a similar variety: frequently n-infixion (without prefix), lengthened
vowel (again without prefix), and for 'weak' verbs and non-primitives,
the suffix -an`.  Is it so hard to imagine that in Sindarin as in
Quenya, nasal-infixed and long-vowel past tenses co-exist -- with the
addition of a prefixed sund—ma common, but perhaps not always
mandatory?

Point four: These nasal-infixed past tenses are consistent with the
characterization in PE17:131 of the formation of the past participle as
being constructed by nasal infixion plus the suffix -ina (the example
given being ÃMAT: mantina > mannen "eaten").  As we can tell by
comparison with Quenya (and with certain archaic forms in Sindarin
itself), the past participial marker was generally -naa, sometimes
-inaa, the latter of which seems to have been generalized in Sindarin.
In Quenya, the -ina suffix is attached to the root, often with
lengthened vowel (n—tina "counted", racina "stripped", r‡cina
"broken", rœcina "ruined").  In Sindarin, however, the typical
formation is n infixed (as in mannen, dangen) or suffixed (tirnen) + the
suffix -en < -inaa.

Why the double marking?  Various reasons could be adduced, but one
plausible one is that as the participle became more clearly linked to a
past sense, the stem to which the -en was attached was reformed to make
it more like the stem of the past tense (without prefixed sund—ma).

Another interpretation is that the -en was added to the past participle;
this is, however, problematic for the dangen type, since *ndaknaa would
have given dagna > da3na > dain > daen (not danc, dang-), and with
addition of the -en suffix the nonexistent form **daenen.

The conclusion I came to in writing A Gateway to Sindarin was that the
infixed-nasal past tense had played a key role in the formation of the
past participle, so that synchronically the formation could often be
characterized as past stem with nasal infix + suffix -en.  Indeed, in
some cases, it seemed that other past tense formations could influence
the past participial form, as in daul and dolen, though one might argue
that the latter is actually an archaic past tense from *dulina (a
distinction with a difference; the plural of the former would be
**dolin, of the later **delin).

How does this affect the question of *toll?  Well, the answer is that
without direct evidence we can't tell whether the past tense of ÃTUL:
tol- would have been *tulnee > *tulde > *told > toll (with prefix odol,
odoll-), or *tuulee > *tuule > tžl (with prefix udul, udœl-).
The Quenya past tense tœl` (SD:246) might indeed be held to be
evidence for the latter, if (a) it weren't rather early (mid-1940s) and
(b) if there were any systematic correspondence between Quenya and
Sindarin past tense forms, which is far from certain; we have for
instance Q carn` (PE17:74, 144) beside S agor (WJ:415).

And while one might assert on semantic grounds that "come" is a very
common, everyday word (like "make", "grow", etc.) and so might be a
suitable candidate for this type of "strong" past tense, on the other
hand there's the curious fact that all the attested Sindarin long-vowel
past tenses have the sund—mar a or e (ÃAN: ™n, ÃGAL aul or
angol,  ÃKAR: agor, ÃSAM: aw (<ahaumh); ÃDEW: ed(h)iw-;
ÃMEN: *emeenee- > **evin).  And however one considers the forms aval-
and adhag- in PE17:131 they are also from a-sund—ma roots (ÃBAL,
ÃDAK).  So for all we know this sort of formation was avoided with
roots with the sund—mar i, o, or u.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ok let me start by saying thank you to everyone for actually going through and
critiquing my post.  I actually expected it to be ignored.  Second, it was asked
where I got a particular word (Which word itself isn't at this point I do not
believe necessary to point out.)  Below are the sources I used to produce the
phrases in my original post.

Quetin i lamb¨e eldaiva   Thorsten Renk   Version 1.10 (August 12, 2004)
Quenya – English          Helge K. Fauskanger      (May 17th, 2005)
YaTT 2.1.2 Inboard Dictionaries

I also never expected that one of the words I used could spark as much debate as
it has.  I am not a linguist, nor have I studied the Tolkien languages as you
have so, many of the terms I end up having to look up.  Thank you all.

David,

> Is it so hard to imagine that in Sindarin as in
> Quenya, nasal-infixed and long-vowel past tenses co-exist -- with the
> addition of a prefixed sund—ma common, but perhaps not always
> mandatory?

No, it is of course not hard to imagine. In fact, there is no need to
imagine it at all, given that we have examples for nasal infixion on
primary verbs as well. As you may know, I'm, maintaining a (rather)
complete list off all attested Q(u)enya past tense forms and all Sindarin
past tense forms, and I'm quite aware of the possible variety.

It is also certainly possible that the augment is optional, and of course
without direct evidence we can't tell. Even with direct evidence we
probably couldn't rule out a form, because there may be another sheet of
paper on which a different form is attested. So, a lot of forms are
potentially possible.

The case of _*toll/*udul_ seems to have another component, however.
_*toll_ is a popular form, people are used to seeing it, to using it in
their own compositions, it has appeared in many grammar articles, it has
enerted life-roleplaying phrasebooks, in general people like it. I admit
quite frankly I like it much better than _*udul_.

Naturally, I observe in myself a resistance to remove a form I've been
using for a while and which I like from my compositions in favour of one I
don't like so much, so I tend to convince myself that the form which I
like better is also still possible and not ruled out definitely.

Which is true, but maybe a bit besides the point. I think there is good
evidence of Tolkien's intentions for the Sindarin past tense, I have
collected in for everyone to read. Similarly, the evidence for the
Noldorin past tense is collecetd, same thing for Quenya, and if I try to
judge the evidence unbiased by my preferences and by what I wish to be a
valid form, I don't end up with _*toll_ as a likely form, and the fact
that something cannot be ruled out conclusively is not sufficient cause
for using it.


I leave it to everyone to judge the evidence her/himself. I take it you
have dont it in a different way. I cannot 100% prove that _adhanc_ is a
past tense. I cannot prove that Sindarin verbs need an augment. But the
evidence points that way. What I object to (and this is the reason I have
originally written) are statements that _toll_ *is* the Sindarin past
tense of _tol-_.

Cheers,

* Thorsten

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello to All,

I have a question on the Quenya pronunciation in Helge's Quenya course:

In the course regarding the short vowel _a_, it is mentioned that "Tolkien noted
that it should be more "open" than the long á. "

So could anyone suggest the reference of this footnote (from Tolkien himself?),
as I can only find the statements regarding the difference between Quenya long
and short vowels in the Appendix that "In Quenya long _é_ and _ó_ were, when
correctly pronounced, as by the Eldar, tenser and 'closer' than the short
vowels", but nothing related to _a_ or _á_.

Any advice will be much appreciated!

Thank you!

Benson Kochou Fang

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "iiipitaka" <dsalo@...> wrote:

> And while one might assert on semantic grounds that "come" is a very
> common, everyday word (like "make", "grow", etc.) and so might be a
> suitable candidate for this type of "strong" past tense, on the other
> hand there's the curious fact that all the attested Sindarin
long-vowel
> past tenses have the sund—mar a or e (ÃAN: ™n, ÃGAL aul
or
> angol,  ÃKAR: agor, ÃSAM: aw (<ahaumh); ÃDEW: ed(h)iw-;
> ÃMEN: *emeenee- > **evin).  And however one considers the forms
aval-
> and adhag- in PE17:131 they are also from a-sund—ma roots
(ÃBAL,
> ÃDAK).  So for all we know this sort of formation was avoided with
> roots with the sund—mar i, o, or u.

I made an error above, overlooking the form onur (*o-nooree) from the
root ÃNOR, past tense of the verb nor- "run" (PE17:168).  We still
lack evidence for Sindarin past tenses of this type from verbal roots
with the sund—mar I and U.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

1 Corinthians 13 (the first 8 verses) in Quenya:

1 Qui nye quete lambinen atanion ar valaron,
	 mal melme u' harya,
nye na tombo lamyala
	 hya rauta nambala.


2 Ar qui nye harya anna apaceno
	 ar ista ilye lomba ar ilya nolwi
ar qui nye harya ilya savie
	 sa pole rúma oronti,
mal melme u' harya,
	 nye úqua na.

3 qui nye anta ilye arwanya i penyannar
ar anta hroanya urienna,
mal melme u' harya,
nye cama úqua.

4 Melme cola nwalme andave,
	 ar nilda na.
Melme ua mere nati exeo,
	 ua laita insa,
var insa orta,

5 ua verca na,
ua roita vérarya ,
	 u orna ormenna

u' onote ulco,
6 u' alasta lo úfailie
	 mal alasta lo i nanwa.

7 Ilqua se cola, ilqua se savi, ilqua se estelya, ilqua se termar.
8 Melme ua quele oiale.


TRANSLATION:

1 Qui nye quete lambinen atanion ar valaron,
IF I SPEAK WITH LANGUAGES OF MEN OR ANGELS
	 mal melme u' harya,
BUT LOVE NOT HAVE

nye na tombo lamyala
I AM A GONG SOUNDING
	 hya rauta nambala.
OR METAL HAMMERING


2 Ar qui nye harya anna apaceno
AND IF I HAVE A GIFT OF FORESIGHT
	 ar ista ilye lomba ar ilya nolwi
AND KNOW EVERY SECRET AND ALL KNOWLEDGE

ar qui nye harya ilya savie
AND I I HAVE ALL FAITH
	 sa pole rúma oronti,
WHICH CAN MOVE MOUNTAINS
mal melme u' harya,
BUT LOVE NOT HAVE

	 nye úqua na.
I NOTHING AM

3 qui nye anta ilye arwanya i penyannar
IF I GIVE ALL MY GOODS TO THE LACKING
ar anta hroanya urienna,
AND GIVE MY BODY TO THE FIRE
mal melme u' harya,
BUT LOVE NOT HAVE
nye cama úqua.
I receive nothing

4 Melme cola nwalme andave,
Love bears suffering long
	 ar nilda na.
Melme ua mere nati exeo,
Love desires not things of others (eg does not envy)
	 ua laita insa,
	 not praises itself
var insa orta,
nor itself raises
5 ua verca na,
ua roita vérarya ,
not seeks its private things
	 u' orna ormenna
	 not rushes to wrath
u' onote ulco, \
not notes evil
6 u' alasta lo úfailie
not rejoices by unrighteousness
	 mal alasta lo i anwa.

but rejoices by the truth

7 Ilqua se cola, ilqua se savi, ilqua se estelya, ilqua se termar.
It bears everything, it believes everything, it hopes everything, it endures
everything
8 Melme ua quele oiale.
Love fades not forever.

Aiya!

I have translated the quintessential Finnish tango into Quenya: Satumaa "Far
Away Land of Dreams" (often called "Fairy Tale Land"). The original melody and
lyrics are by Unto Mononen (1930-1968). The Quenya title is _Nyárenor_, the
literal meaning of which is 'Land of Saga'. The lyrics of the Finnish song are
reminiscent of the longing of Elves for their lost home, which lies beyond the
wide sea. As Quenya is partially based on Finnish grammar and phonetics, it is
doubly appropriate to translate Satumaa into Elvish.

Below you can find the Quenya translation (with back translation) and the
original Finnish lyrics. You can watch my performance of this on YouTube
(subtitles are in English, Quenya and Finnish):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fSETCCg4jc

_Palla Ear pella ea nór' eressea_
beyond the wide Sea there is a lonely land (cf. Tol Eressea)
_yasse oi falastea hrestann' almárea_
where it surges always on the blessed shore
_yasse lóti arivanimë sisilcalar_
where the most beautiful of flowers continually shine white and golden
(cf. the Two Trees, VT27:20,27)
_tasse ilye noa réo nyéri haire nar_
there all the worries of tomorrow are far

_Ai, mennien qui enta nyáre-nóre yallume_
alas, if I would reach that saga-land at last
_ní tallo laume lendie ve lindo ullume_
I would not indeed go from there like a singing bird, not ever
_ú rámato uin pole vile_
without wings I cannot fly
_nánye lanyana_
I am enclosed
_er nausenen i háya pele_
only by imagination that returns far away
_mínan úvana_
I make for that which is unmarred

_Linde, vila tanna yasse síla nyárenor_
song, fly there where the saga-land is shining (cf. Valinor)
_tanna yasse ninya arimelda *larta vor_
there where my dearest waits ever
_linde, vila tanna síve lindo lintie_
song, fly there like a singing bird, with swiftness
_nyara i nóvissenyassen ea, ná er se_
tell that in my thoughts he/she alone exists, is

Aavan meren tuolla puolen jossakin on maa
missä onnen kaukorantaan laine liplattaa
missä kukat kauneimmat luo aina loistettaan
siellä huolet huomisen voi jäädä unholaan

Oi jospa kerran sinne satumaahan käydä vois
niin sieltä koskaan lähtisi en linnun lailla pois
vaan siivetönnä en voi lentää
vanki olen maan
vain aatoksin mi kauas entää
sinne käydä saan

Lennä laulu sinne missä siintää satumaa
sinne missä mua oma armain odottaa
lennä laulu sinne lailla linnun liitävän
kerro että aatoksissain on vain yksin hän


Nai elen siluva lyenna!

Petri Tikka
aka Tambaro
http://www.petritikka.com
http://petritikka.blogspot.com
http://www.youtube.com/ondotambaro

Mae Govannen,

I'm working on a Map of Middle Earth with labels in layers for Sindarin, Quenya,
and English, with both Tengwar and Latin orthography.  I'm in a dialogue with
elfscript2 about my orthography and received a lot of great insight there.  I've
also done a bunch of research on cross-translations for some of the location
names of Middle Earth, and filled some gaps with speculation.  It would be great
if some folks might review my work.

This spreadsheet chronicles my progress, with some notes on what's missing, and
"*" on words I've translated and "?" for gaps in my knowledge so far.  "X"
stands where I've tried to find translations and either have failed or am
reasonably certain that no translation is necessary or possible.  There are also
some notes about what I'm still looking for.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0An5phhxDkYDPdEkweHFFWjR4bTlzd3Nxb282UmJQ\
VVE&hl=en

This is a graphic of my work so far, much of which needs to be retransliterated:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1688099/endor/labels-1.png

For context, this is my second stab at drawing Ered Luin (Harad).

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1688099/endor/endor-a2-ered-luin-har.jpg

My intent is to make a digital map with multiple layers for labels.  All of this
work is Creative Commons CC/BY/NC.

http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/us/

Thanks,
Kris Kowal

Hi,

I was just looking over my copy of Vinyar Tengwar 47 and was wondering if anyone
knows the word for 72 (half-gross) that is alluded to on pg 17 (Author's note
4)?

Thanks for any help

Earendel

I ask because I'd really like to get the current set of articles from VT 41-49
(Vol. 5b), but don't want to have to buy that only to have to turn around and
buy a separate volume (5c?) with the entire VT 41-50 just to get VT 50.

Certainly don't want to rush anyone, but enquiring minds want to know!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

* Music video with Sindarin & English subtitles:
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6QdUzf4IIM
* The English lyrics are based on phel53's version
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAC9DX26pX0) with a slight revision.
* Several terms in the translation are provided with the links to Wikipedia in
CoE
(http://www.councilofelrond.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=XForum&file=viewthre\
ad&tid=32667)

I tried to translate the lyrics of Heartbeat of Taiwan, the theme song of Taiwan
Expo 2010 in Shanghai, into Neo Sindarin, based on J.R.R. Tolkien's Elvish
Sindarin. The lyrics not only narrate the life, culture, history, famous sights,
and religion on this land, but also speak out Taiwanese' sincere wish for the
peace of the world.


Any comment is appreciated:


Dringad Hûn Taiwan
"Heartbeat of Taiwan"

(English)
The ivy crawls up the rusty fire hydrant
Like a butterfly cannot give up the frangrance of flowers
A tranquil alleyway, A glass of Yonghe soybean milk
I'm contentedly tasting a draught of my idyllic hometown

(Neo Sindarin)
I *edil dan ambada i *noreithel 'aer
"That ivy climbs up the red fire hydrant"
Sui gwilwileth ú-*bôl gwannad nes lyth
"Like a betterfly can not depart sweet smelling of flowers"
Othrad dhínen, Ylf *eredh-thim Yonghe
"A silent street, a vessel of Seed-milk of Yonghe"
Sogon nan îdh yll e-mbaren di-hîdh
"I'm drinking in peace a draught of my home in peace

* edil: (n) ivy, cf. Qenya _etl_, _etil_
* noreithel: (n) naun"fire" + eithel "well", fire hydrant
* pol- (v) to be able to, cf. Quenya _pol-_
* thim: (n) milk, cf. Gnomish _thim_ (PE11:72)


(English)
Neon lights light up the fantasy of night market
Kids are playing hide-and-seek looking for their favorite sweets
Sunset in pale yellow, The antique wall of Longshan Temple
I reverently kindle an incense, holding a stick of hope

(Neo Sindarin)
Celair neon thenir ôl chwiniol o *mach-had fuin
"Neon lights kindle the fantastic dream about night market"
Hîn deiliar dholthad-a-hired hiriel vainn lîch i melir
"Children are playing hide-and-find finding the sweet food that they love"
Annûn valen 'ael a rham vrûnen Iaun Long shan
"The sunset of pale yellow and the old wall of the Longshan Fane"
Nan-ind lachon *ne-'olf sui i estel i hebin
"With heart I flame a incense as the hope that I am holding"

* bach-had: (n) bach"article" + sad "place", market
* ne-'olf: (n) ne"scent" + golf "branch", incense


(English)
Less injury, more applause
Less battle, more simplicity
Perspire to experience youth with the soul of baseball
Attentedly we listen to the heartbeat of Taiwan

(Neo Sindarin)
Haru *eithithen, egleriad *allaew
"Less wound, more praising"
Auth eithithen, prestanneth eithithen
"Less battle, less affection"
Teiliol *dalanchorn na fae, cuinol 'wîn na *thronnen
"Playing baseball with soul, living youth with sweat"
Nan ind lathranc i dhringad hûn Taiwan
"With heart we listen to the heart-beat of Taiwan"

* eithithen: (adj) an-(intensifier) + tithen "small", less
* allaew: (adj) an-(intensifier) + laew "many", more
* talanchorn: (n) talaf"ground" + coron "ball", baseball, cf. Quenya
_talma_"base"
* rhonnen: (n) rhond"body" + nen "water", sweat


(English)
The colour of happiness all across the Chianan Plain is waiting for harvest
Pingtung bluefin tunas are the pure joy, Wandering is Dansui River
The steep gorge of Taroko soaring up to the sky, showing our straight optimism
How to make a Meinong umbrella? How to carve out a Sanyi sculpture
There are so many choices on this land
Check out the unique make-up of the Eight Generals
My friend, my friend, let's just pause our story here

(Neo Sindarin)
Rhaed vain bathrol i Dalath Chianan dâr grithad
"The blessed hues filling the Plain of Chianan are waiting for reaping"
Gell i chail luin velaith Pingtung, Tre-vistol i Hirion Danshui
"The joy is the mighty bluefish of Pintung, Wandering is the River Dansui"
Penn imlad Toroko am-eriol na menel sui glass vîn ubrestannen
"Steeply sloping is the narrow valley of Taroko as our unaffected joy"
Istodh o gared *ross-amath Meinong ah o hechaded davn dawen Sanyi?
"Do you know the making of an umbrella of Meinong and the making of the wooden
craft of Sanyi?"
Cuiar dambith evyr vi i nôr hen
"Abundant answers live in this land"
Tiriel i thraed vinai erui bo níviath i Tholod *Ethdegyr
"Watching the unique hues only on the faces of the Eight Generals"
Mellon nîn, mellon nîn, derithanc thî i narn vín
"My friend, my friend, our story stops now"

* am-eria- (v) am-"up" + eria- "to rise", to rise up
* ross-amath: (n) ross"rain" + amath "shield", umbrella
* athdogor: (n) auth"war" + *togor "leader", general


(English)
Less animus, more us
Less indifference, more consideration
Let's dance the cursive scripts of Yun-Men and be the fireworks of Yenshui guard
our country
Matsu of eternity, generations of piety
Sky lanterns have peacefully taken off, never hesitate to make a wish

(Neo Sindarin)
Coth eithithen, mí allaew
"Less enmity, more us"
Ind ring eithithen, hannas allaew
"Less cool heart, more understanding"
*Glilthol i dîw throvain Fan-Annon, No i norvaenas Yenshui beria i nôr vín
"Dancing the wild letters of Yun-Men, Be the fireworks of Yenshui protect our
country"
Mazu uireb, egleriar cuil ahîn ernediaid
"Eternal Mazu, praise the endless lifes and children"
Úriel di-hîdh i *menel-gelair, avo dharo ir pelidh írad
"Having risen in peace the sky-lanterns, Don't halt when you can make a wish"

* gliltha- (v) to dance, cf.Qenya _lilta-_
* norvaenas: (n) naur"fire" + maenas "craft", fireworks
* menel-galar: (n) menel"sky" + calar "lamp", sky-lantern


Benson