Hello,



I apologize in advance in the likely event that this or similar questions have

been posed before. I have, however, done some searching and have not found any

directly relevant, reliable information. As you can guess from what follows, I

am no expert and probably have gotten much wrong, but here is as far as I have

managed to go on my own:



I have been trying to formulate a reasonable translation of the phrase "cats of

Queen Beruthiel" or "Queen Beruthiel's cats" or just "Beruthiel's Cats" into

Sindarin or, failing that, Quenya.



The closest I have managed to come would be something along the lines of the

mixed Quenya / Sindarin _meoiva Beruthiel_ (assuming that _Tevildo (vardo)

meoita_ is early Quenya for "Telvido (prince or lord) of cats," the last word of

which, I believe, would have become _meoiva_ in later Quenya, had the character

of Tevildo or even just the root _meoi_ survived in Tolkien's writings? Is there

some rule or convention for extrapolating how an early Quenya root like _meoi_

might have evolved into an equivlent Sindarin word? If so, how would one go

about constructing such a Sindarin equivalent and expressing it in the

possesive?



If not, is there a way to translate "Beruthiel's cats" into Quenya? If my

understanding is correct, _Beruthiel_ cannot directly be used in pure Quenya

texts at all, since the voiced plosive "B" doesn't occur in that language and,

as a queen of Gondor, her name is probably of Sindarin rather than Quenya

derivation? Is there some convention for treating such non-Quenya proper nouns

in Quenya texts, on the assumption that such occasions probably arise in the

context of using Quenya as the "Elvish Latin?"



I would be very grateful for any expert advice in these matters.



Thanks in advance,

Kirk

I haven't seen anyone replying on this yet, but one option for 'cat' might be to

use 'raw dithen' (little lion); 'raw' (lion); tithen (little), lenited.



Ruth



"Tolo si a tiro in chairdh Eru"



"Come now and see the works of God"

Thank you very much for the suggestion. I have decided to go with an invented

word, hopefully in a fashion in keeping with the spirit of Tolkien's procedures

for determining how a root might evolve in Sindarin. In particular, I am going

with _meorath Beruthiel din_ as the Sindarin translation of "Beruthiel's cats."

The conception is that _meorath_ would be the "class plural" form of a word that

preserves the onomatopoetic base of the same root that yields _meoita_ in early

Quenya.



Kirk



--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Ruth Mayes <oselleruth@...> wrote:

>

> I haven't seen anyone replying on this yet, but one option for 'cat' might be

to use 'raw dithen' (little lion); 'raw' (lion); tithen (little), lenited.

>

> Ruth

>

> "Tolo si a tiro in chairdh Eru"

>

> "Come now and see the works of God"

>

Hello Kirk,



> I have been trying to formulate a reasonable translation of the phrase "cats

of Queen Beruthiel" or "Queen Beruthiel's cats" or just "Beruthiel's Cats" into

Sindarin or, failing that, Quenya.



I would rather go with Sindarin, because (as far as I know) Berúthiel's name is

not fully understood yet, so translating it in Quenya would be tricky. Of

course, as you thought, it is possible to adapt a foreign name to the phonology

of Quenya. Tolkien himself did just that several times: for instance _Hrísto_

"Christ" in the Litany of Loreto; cf. VT44:12.



But since Berúthiel appears to be Sindarin, it seems more natural to stick to

that language. "Queen" also is easy: the word _bereth_ is obvious, all the more

because it means primarily "spouse of a king" and only secondarily "queen". For

"cat", we'll have to look at older wordlists, since this word is not attested in

what has been published of the post-LR vocabulary.



> The closest I have managed to come would be something along the lines of the

mixed Quenya / Sindarin _meoiva Beruthiel_ (assuming that _Tevildo (vardo)

meoita_ is early Quenya for "Telvido (prince or lord) of cats," the last word of

which, I believe, would have become _meoiva_ in later Quenya, had the character

of Tevildo or even just the root _meoi_ survived in Tolkien's writings? Is there

some rule or convention for extrapolating how an early Quenya root like _meoi_

might have evolved into an equivlent Sindarin word?



It would be awfully uncertain to proceed like this. But fortunately, we don't

have to. First, there is a more recent Qenya name for cat: _yaulë_ (see Qenya

Wordlist in PE16:132 (which means the root for _meoi_ probably did not make it

to Tolkien's later elaborations, by the way).



Even better, we do have Goldogrin and even Noldorin words for "cat". The most

recent appears to be _muig_ in NW; cf. PE13:150. This word could be adopted

straight into Sindarin.



Best regards,

Damien

Kirk,



Another Quenya word for "cat" is _yaule_, which fits better with the phonology

of "The Lord of the Rings".



The common practice with names seems to be to either translate them, or

transpose them phonologically. Since I know of no reliable translation of

"Berúthiel", transposition seems to be the best option. I suggest _Verúsiel_.



Thus _Yauli Verúsielo_, _Verúsielo yauli_ or possibly _Yauli Verúsielwa_. The

two first examples use the "genitive" case, the last one the "possessive" --

although these two cases in origin had different meaning, they are normally

interchangeable in classical Quenya.



If we attempt to reconstruct a Sindarin word based on Quenya _yaule_, we might

end up with *_iaul_. So perhaps _Iaulath Berúthiel_ would do?





Yours,

Måns





--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "magistertuus" <magistertuus@...> wrote:

>

> Hello,

>

> I apologize in advance in the likely event that this or similar questions have

been posed before. I have, however, done some searching and have not found any

directly relevant, reliable information. As you can guess from what follows, I

am no expert and probably have gotten much wrong, but here is as far as I have

managed to go on my own:

>

> I have been trying to formulate a reasonable translation of the phrase "cats

of Queen Beruthiel" or "Queen Beruthiel's cats" or just "Beruthiel's Cats" into

Sindarin or, failing that, Quenya.

>

> The closest I have managed to come would be something along the lines of the

mixed Quenya / Sindarin _meoiva Beruthiel_ (assuming that _Tevildo (vardo)

meoita_ is early Quenya for "Telvido (prince or lord) of cats," the last word of

which, I believe, would have become _meoiva_ in later Quenya, had the character

of Tevildo or even just the root _meoi_ survived in Tolkien's writings? Is there

some rule or convention for extrapolating how an early Quenya root like _meoi_

might have evolved into an equivlent Sindarin word? If so, how would one go

about constructing such a Sindarin equivalent and expressing it in the

possesive?

>

> If not, is there a way to translate "Beruthiel's cats" into Quenya? If my

understanding is correct, _Beruthiel_ cannot directly be used in pure Quenya

texts at all, since the voiced plosive "B" doesn't occur in that language and,

as a queen of Gondor, her name is probably of Sindarin rather than Quenya

derivation? Is there some convention for treating such non-Quenya proper nouns

in Quenya texts, on the assumption that such occasions probably arise in the

context of using Quenya as the "Elvish Latin?"

>

> I would be very grateful for any expert advice in these matters.

>

> Thanks in advance,

> Kirk

>

Thanks to all who replied for generously lending your expertise.



Kirk