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Sindarin translation of "Beruthiel's Cats"?   Topic List   < Prev Topic  |  Next Topic >
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#35719 From: "magistertuus" <magistertuus@...>
Date: Mon Mar 8, 2010 2:40 pm
Subject: Sindarin translation of "Beruthiel's Cats"?
magistertuus
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Hello,

I apologize in advance in the likely event that this or similar questions have
been posed before. I have, however, done some searching and have not found any
directly relevant, reliable information. As you can guess from what follows, I
am no expert and probably have gotten much wrong, but here is as far as I have
managed to go on my own:

I have been trying to formulate a reasonable translation of the phrase "cats of
Queen Beruthiel" or "Queen Beruthiel's cats" or just "Beruthiel's Cats" into
Sindarin or, failing that, Quenya.

The closest I have managed to come would be something along the lines of the
mixed Quenya / Sindarin _meoiva Beruthiel_ (assuming that _Tevildo (vardo)
meoita_ is early Quenya for "Telvido (prince or lord) of cats," the last word of
which, I believe, would have become _meoiva_ in later Quenya, had the character
of Tevildo or even just the root _meoi_ survived in Tolkien's writings? Is there
some rule or convention for extrapolating how an early Quenya root like _meoi_
might have evolved into an equivlent Sindarin word? If so, how would one go
about constructing such a Sindarin equivalent and expressing it in the
possesive?

If not, is there a way to translate "Beruthiel's cats" into Quenya? If my
understanding is correct, _Beruthiel_ cannot directly be used in pure Quenya
texts at all, since the voiced plosive "B" doesn't occur in that language and,
as a queen of Gondor, her name is probably of Sindarin rather than Quenya
derivation? Is there some convention for treating such non-Quenya proper nouns
in Quenya texts, on the assumption that such occasions probably arise in the
context of using Quenya as the "Elvish Latin?"

I would be very grateful for any expert advice in these matters.

Thanks in advance,
Kirk




#35721 From: Ruth Mayes <oselleruth@...>
Date: Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:17 pm
Subject: Re: Sindarin translation of "Beruthiel's Cats"?
coegwendeth
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I haven't seen anyone replying on this yet, but one option for 'cat' might be to
use 'raw dithen' (little lion); 'raw' (lion); tithen (little), lenited.

Ruth

"Tolo si a tiro in chairdh Eru"

"Come now and see the works of God"



#35723 From: "magistertuus" <magistertuus@...>
Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:04 am
Subject: Re: Sindarin translation of "Beruthiel's Cats"?
magistertuus
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Thank you very much for the suggestion. I have decided to go with an invented
word, hopefully in a fashion in keeping with the spirit of Tolkien's procedures
for determining how a root might evolve in Sindarin. In particular, I am going
with _meorath Beruthiel din_ as the Sindarin translation of "Beruthiel's cats."
The conception is that _meorath_ would be the "class plural" form of a word that
preserves the onomatopoetic base of the same root that yields _meoita_ in early
Quenya.

Kirk

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Ruth Mayes <oselleruth@...> wrote:
>
> I haven't seen anyone replying on this yet, but one option for 'cat' might be
to use 'raw dithen' (little lion); 'raw' (lion); tithen (little), lenited.
>
> Ruth
>
> "Tolo si a tiro in chairdh Eru"
>
> "Come now and see the works of God"
>





#35724 From: "elendil_voronda" <d.bador@...>
Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:24 pm
Subject: Re: Sindarin translation of "Beruthiel's Cats"?
elendil_voronda
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Hello Kirk,

> I have been trying to formulate a reasonable translation of the phrase "cats
of Queen Beruthiel" or "Queen Beruthiel's cats" or just "Beruthiel's Cats" into
Sindarin or, failing that, Quenya.

I would rather go with Sindarin, because (as far as I know) Berúthiel's name is
not fully understood yet, so translating it in Quenya would be tricky. Of
course, as you thought, it is possible to adapt a foreign name to the phonology
of Quenya. Tolkien himself did just that several times: for instance _Hrísto_
"Christ" in the Litany of Loreto; cf. VT44:12.

But since Berúthiel appears to be Sindarin, it seems more natural to stick to
that language. "Queen" also is easy: the word _bereth_ is obvious, all the more
because it means primarily "spouse of a king" and only secondarily "queen". For
"cat", we'll have to look at older wordlists, since this word is not attested in
what has been published of the post-LR vocabulary.

> The closest I have managed to come would be something along the lines of the
mixed Quenya / Sindarin _meoiva Beruthiel_ (assuming that _Tevildo (vardo)
meoita_ is early Quenya for "Telvido (prince or lord) of cats," the last word of
which, I believe, would have become _meoiva_ in later Quenya, had the character
of Tevildo or even just the root _meoi_ survived in Tolkien's writings? Is there
some rule or convention for extrapolating how an early Quenya root like _meoi_
might have evolved into an equivlent Sindarin word?

It would be awfully uncertain to proceed like this. But fortunately, we don't
have to. First, there is a more recent Qenya name for cat: _yaulë_ (see Qenya
Wordlist in PE16:132 (which means the root for _meoi_ probably did not make it
to Tolkien's later elaborations, by the way).

Even better, we do have Goldogrin and even Noldorin words for "cat". The most
recent appears to be _muig_ in NW; cf. PE13:150. This word could be adopted
straight into Sindarin.

Best regards,
Damien




#35726 From: "Mans" <at@...>
Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 4:28 pm
Subject: Re: Sindarin translation of "Beruthiel's Cats"?
mansbjorkman
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Kirk,

Another Quenya word for "cat" is _yaule_, which fits better with the phonology
of "The Lord of the Rings".

The common practice with names seems to be to either translate them, or
transpose them phonologically. Since I know of no reliable translation of
"Berúthiel", transposition seems to be the best option. I suggest _Verúsiel_.

Thus _Yauli Verúsielo_, _Verúsielo yauli_ or possibly _Yauli Verúsielwa_. The
two first examples use the "genitive" case, the last one the "possessive" --
although these two cases in origin had different meaning, they are normally
interchangeable in classical Quenya.

If we attempt to reconstruct a Sindarin word based on Quenya _yaule_, we might
end up with *_iaul_. So perhaps _Iaulath Berúthiel_ would do?


Yours,
Måns


--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "magistertuus" <magistertuus@...> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I apologize in advance in the likely event that this or similar questions have
been posed before. I have, however, done some searching and have not found any
directly relevant, reliable information. As you can guess from what follows, I
am no expert and probably have gotten much wrong, but here is as far as I have
managed to go on my own:
>
> I have been trying to formulate a reasonable translation of the phrase "cats
of Queen Beruthiel" or "Queen Beruthiel's cats" or just "Beruthiel's Cats" into
Sindarin or, failing that, Quenya.
>
> The closest I have managed to come would be something along the lines of the
mixed Quenya / Sindarin _meoiva Beruthiel_ (assuming that _Tevildo (vardo)
meoita_ is early Quenya for "Telvido (prince or lord) of cats," the last word of
which, I believe, would have become _meoiva_ in later Quenya, had the character
of Tevildo or even just the root _meoi_ survived in Tolkien's writings? Is there
some rule or convention for extrapolating how an early Quenya root like _meoi_
might have evolved into an equivlent Sindarin word? If so, how would one go
about constructing such a Sindarin equivalent and expressing it in the
possesive?
>
> If not, is there a way to translate "Beruthiel's cats" into Quenya? If my
understanding is correct, _Beruthiel_ cannot directly be used in pure Quenya
texts at all, since the voiced plosive "B" doesn't occur in that language and,
as a queen of Gondor, her name is probably of Sindarin rather than Quenya
derivation? Is there some convention for treating such non-Quenya proper nouns
in Quenya texts, on the assumption that such occasions probably arise in the
context of using Quenya as the "Elvish Latin?"
>
> I would be very grateful for any expert advice in these matters.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Kirk
>





#35728 From: "magistertuus" <magistertuus@...>
Date: Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:27 pm
Subject: Re: Sindarin translation of "Beruthiel's Cats"?
magistertuus
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Thanks to all who replied for generously lending your expertise.

Kirk




 
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