Hi all! Following your advices and pointers I've researched the word respect in
quenya by first looking at the etymology.

respect (n.) c.1300, from L. respectus "regard," lit. "act of looking back at
one," pp. of respicere "look back at, regard, consider," from re- "back" +
specere "look at".

So, I've come up with different possibilities. 5 to be exact. Firstly, "look at"
or "sight" in quenya has come to

_cen_ = noun "sight" as the final element of some nouns

For the translation of "back" or "again" I've found some prefixes

_ata-_ , _en-_  and _nan-_

I have some options..

Look back  _Atacen_
Look back  _encen_
Look back _nattirë_ [nattirë vb. "look back" (PE17 : 166)]
Fore(after)sight _apacen_
Insight _tercen_

I don't know for sure if any of them is accurate. I've tried my best to make it
so. Can you guys take a shot at it? Is there anything right? Am I on the right
track?

Oh yeah, I've also come to some othe probabilities. But was unable to work them
into something. Some of them are:

_yéta-_ vb. "look at" (LT1 : 262)
_cenda-_ vb. "watch" (not "guard", but observe to gain information) (VT48 : 7).
_enyalië_ "to recall" (Nam, RGEO:67, LotR3:V ch. 8, MR:405, UT:317)
CALL (noun) _yello_ (shouth, cry of triumph)

The root of the latin goes back to an Indo-European root 'spek-' (as in
Greek *skeptomai*, with metathesis), which seems to be more to the meaning
of 'observe', rather than 'see'. So, the root meaning might to back to
something like "observe again", perhaps going from an unrespected to a
respected position.

Just a thought.


On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 9:33 PM, Andrea <andreamosan@...> wrote:

>
>
> Hi all! Following your advices and pointers I've researched the word
> respect in quenya by first looking at the etymology.
>
> respect (n.) c.1300, from L. respectus "regard," lit. "act of looking back
> at one," pp. of respicere "look back at, regard, consider," from re- "back"
> + specere "look at".
>
> So, I've come up with different possibilities. 5 to be exact. Firstly,
> "look at" or "sight" in quenya has come to
>
> _cen_ = noun "sight" as the final element of some nouns
>
> For the translation of "back" or "again" I've found some prefixes
>
> _ata-_ , _en-_ and _nan-_
>
> I have some options..
>
> Look back _Atacen_
> Look back _encen_
> Look back _nattirë_ [nattirë vb. "look back" (PE17 : 166)]
> Fore(after)sight _apacen_
> Insight _tercen_
>
> I don't know for sure if any of them is accurate. I've tried my best to
> make it so. Can you guys take a shot at it? Is there anything right? Am I on
> the right track?
>
> Oh yeah, I've also come to some othe probabilities. But was unable to work
> them into something. Some of them are:
>
> _yéta-_ vb. "look at" (LT1 : 262)
> _cenda-_ vb. "watch" (not "guard", but observe to gain information) (VT48 :
> 7).
> _enyalië_ "to recall" (Nam, RGEO:67, LotR3:V ch. 8, MR:405, UT:317)
> CALL (noun) _yello_ (shouth, cry of triumph)
>
>
>



--
I enjoy the massacre of ads. This sentence will slaughter ads without a
messy bloodbath.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Christmas is here, and for the occasion I have tried to produce a
Neo-Quenya version of the nativity story in Luke 2:

http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/Luke2.rtf

I have also uploaded a slightly revised version of Quettaparma Quenyanna
(a while back, Valeria Barouch pointed out to me certain errata here and
there). It has also been pointed out to me that the second half of the
article presenting the Quenya corpus texts has long been missing:
Apparently the file had become corrupted. I have now restored it.

Well, happy holidays to you all!

- HKF

btu how does Spek and Speak related, or is much the same? Those who speak
are those who to respect? Ge Sprechen? I speak? I respect or I am respected?

I know here in Alaska, one word for Drink the action, becomes Water in
another dialect/language, and then becomes Ocean, by the time it goesw to
the next language down the way..

Inupiaq > Yupik > Aleutitiq

Same word or close to it?

Mike

Hello all,
Though I have not yet posted any message on the list, I have enjoyed
reading through discussions here for quite a long time. However, I am
now stuck with a question which does not seem to be studied yet, either
here or on other Tolkien language-related lists.
From HoMe XII, we know that the Dunlendings descend from a people
related to the People of Haleth. Hence, I guess their language should
also be related. In Tolkien's latest conception, both the Haladin and
the Dunlendings speak a language which appears to be far sundered from
the other Edainic speeches, to the extent that the ancestors of the
Dunlendings were not felt to be Middle-men by the returning
Númenóreans.
Now, we only know one word from Dunlendish: _forgoil_
"Straw-heads". Could this word be related to the Haladin _hal-_
"head, chief" (WJ:238) and what could it tell about phonological
changes in the Haladin language family?
Of course, even if the two languages are related, there is still a
possibility that the two words are not related at all, like the Latin
_caput_ "head", yielding words like _cap_ "cape" and
_chef_ "chief" in French (with a secondary meaning
"head", now considered archaic), whereas the usual word for
"head" became _tête_ (from Latin _testa_ "pottery
tableware", apparently developing a "skull" meaning in Latin
slang). But this hypothesis would prevent us from any further
investigation.
It appears that several people here consider Dunlendish to be a language
inspired by Goidelic-style tongues, like Irish. See for
instance:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfling/message/33074
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfling/message/33074>

Analyzing _forgoil_ in this respect, the i could come from a i-mutation
used as a plural marker (a suggestion made by Robert Hahl in this
message):http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfling/message/33397
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfling/message/33397>

Then, "straw-head" could be _forgol_. If we assume that
Dunlendings would construct their compounds in the same way as the
Haladin, we can get some further clues regarding the decomposition of
this word:
Angbor "Doom-rock" (from *_ang_ + _bor_)Talbor "Standing
stone" (from *_tal_ + _bor_)Haldad "Watchdog" (from _hal(a)_
+ *_dad_)
It seems relatively safe to assume a _for-gol_ decomposition, with
_-gol_ meaning "head". Now, three questions arise:
1) Does a change: _hal_ > _gol_ fit with a phonology similar to Irish or
other Goidelic languages?
2) In Haladin, it seems the plural is expressed by the ending _-in_
(e.g. _halad_, pl. _haladin_). Do we see such plurals in Old Irish, and
do they produce i-mutation in the modern words?
3) If the answers to both questions are positive, could this tell us
anything regarding the unattested ancestor of _for_ "straw"
(notice not a single attested Haladin word uses the letter "f")?
Alternatively, if the i-mutation hypothesis appears too weak, we could
go back and start the analysis from HKF hypothesis that the _-il_ ending
in _forgoil_ is the plural marker in itself.
See:http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/mannish.htm
<http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/mannish.htm>

Naturally, this would lead us with the need to find plausible
explanations how _hal_ would become _go_, and how _-in_ would give
_-il_.

Merry Christmas and happy new year to you all,Damien — Elendil


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"Speak" developed from an I-E root containing an /r/ (still present in Old
English "sprecan" and modern German "sprechen").  The "Oxford Introduction to
Proto-Indo-European" gives the form of the root as "(s)preg".  In addition to
the Germanic words it also gave rise to Albanian "shpreg" ("express, voice,
utter").  This seems to have nothing to do with "(s)pek", which never had an
/r/.

Regards,

Grant

-----Original Message-----
>From: Abrigon Gusiq <abrigon@...>
>Sent: Dec 25, 2009 10:10 AM
>To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [elfling] Part 2: 'Respect' in quenya: next best and the right
verb
>
>btu how does Spek and Speak related, or is much the same? Those who speak
>are those who to respect? Ge Sprechen? I speak? I respect or I am respected?
>
>I know here in Alaska, one word for Drink the action, becomes Water in
>another dialect/language, and then becomes Ocean, by the time it goesw to
>the next language down the way..
>
>Inupiaq > Yupik > Aleutitiq
>
>Same word or close to it?
>
>Mike
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>--
>Manager address: elfling-owner@yahoogroups.com
>Unsub address: elfling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>Elfling welcome: http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea/elfling.html
>Elfling FAQ: http://nellardo.com/lang/elf/faq.htmlYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Oh I'd also suggest you check out the discussion on

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Forgoil

Some interesting ideas I forgot to mention




___________________________________________________________
×ñçóéìïðïéåßôå Yahoo!;
ÂáñåèÞêáôå ôá åíï÷ëçôéêÜ ìçíýìáôá (spam); Ôï Yahoo! Mail
äéáèÝôåé ôçí êáëýôåñç äõíáôÞ ðñïóôáóßá êáôÜ ôùí åíï÷ëçôéêþí
ìçíõìÜôùí http://login.yahoo.com/config/mail?.intl=gr

>>Naturally, this would lead us with the need to find plausible
>>explanations how _hal_ would become _go_, and how _-in_ would give
>>_-il_.

I always thought that Haladin is not genuine Haladin, but is rather an Elvish
term (except of course the element halad- which is genuine Haladin). And even if
it is not Elvish, we can suppose that the Haladin language was perhaps
influenced by Elvish. -in is an attested Elvish plural marker.

But anyway I think you misunderstood something. Dundlendish is not a 3rd Age
descendant of 1st Age Haladin. They do belong to the same branch (from the same
House of wandering Edain) but are not directly related, therefore they are
distant branches with an ample space for any differientation possible.

So it is not sure that -in gave -il. Perhaps -in was the proto-Haladin ending,
retained in Haladin but abandoned in Dunlendish. Perhaps -il was the
proto-Haladin ending, replaced by Elvish -in in Haladin but retained in
Dunlendish. Or perhaps something wholly different.




___________________________________________________________
×ñçóéìïðïéåßôå Yahoo!;
ÂáñåèÞêáôå ôá åíï÷ëçôéêÜ ìçíýìáôá (spam); Ôï Yahoo! Mail
äéáèÝôåé ôçí êáëýôåñç äõíáôÞ ðñïóôáóßá êáôÜ ôùí åíï÷ëçôéêþí
ìçíõìÜôùí http://login.yahoo.com/config/mail?.intl=gr

Palatinus skrev:
> Oh I'd also suggest you check out the discussion on
>
> http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Forgoil
>
> Some interesting ideas I forgot to mention

The assumption that _mûmakil_ is 'Haradric'
is almost certainly wrong.  Cf. the Westron
_banakil_ 'halflings'.  Ergo _-il_ is a
**Westron** plural ending.  Cf. also the
Orc-Westron _tark(s)_; probably _tark_
was back-formed from Quenya _tarkil_
because this latter was misconstrued as
a Westron plural:

banak* ~ banakil
mûmak  ~ mumakil
   X     ~ tarkil
         =
tark   ~ tarkil

Besides there is no telling how_forgoil_ should
be segmented; it may be _for-go-il*_ or _forg-oi-l*_
or _for-goil-Ø*_ with a zero plural marker or
anything inbetween, including that Dunlendish may
have borrowed and productively used a Westron
plural ending just as High German did with Low
German and (Old) French _-s_.

The status of _g_ in _forgoil_ is especially hard
to determine; in fact both _goil*_ and _oil*_ may
be cognate with _hal_, e.g.

*gha:l* > *kha:l* > *xa:l* > hal
          > *ga:l*  > *go:l* > *gowl* > gojl*

or

*hal_j* > hal
          > *al_j* > *ol_j* > ojl* (or even _oil_ spells /ol_j/*!)

or anything inbetween these.  There is no way of telling
whether Tolkien had any of these in mind or not.  You need
to have a certain data set to determine cognacy even in
natural languages.  One word from each of two languages
separated by thousands of miles and millennia which both
happen to end in the same consonant certainly won't do.
What you need is a data set large enough to establish
regular **differences**, like Germanic *f corresponding
to Latin p, or Latin f corresponding to Greek ph th kh,
or in Eldarin Sindarin au/o corresponding to Quenya á.

/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch atte melroch dotte se
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
                  A h-ammen ledin i phith!                \ \
       __  ____ ____    _____________ ____ __   __ __     / /
       \ \/___ \\__ \  /___  _____/\ \\__ \\ \  \ \\ \   / /
       / /   / /  /  \    / /Melroch\ \_/ // /  / // /  / /
      / /___/ /_ / /\ \  / /Melarokko\_  // /__/ // /__/ /
     /_________//_/  \_\/ /Eowine __  / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
    ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
|| Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||

>
> I always thought that Haladin is not genuine Haladin, but is rather an Elvish
term (except of course the element halad- which is genuine Haladin). And even if
it is not Elvish, we can suppose that the Haladin language was perhaps
influenced by Elvish. -in is an attested Elvish plural marker.
>

From Tolkien's comment on the "Haladin" name in HoMe 11, p.308 and especially
Christopher Tolkien's note 40 p.304, I do believe _Haladin_ is an authentic
Mannish name for the Wardens of Brethil. Of course, _-in_ is very likely to be a
borrowing from Elvish, given it is an attested Elvish plural marker.

However, I would tend to agree with you on at least one count: we don't know
whether "Haladin" would have been the name of the tongue of the People of Haleth
in their own language, or an Elvish name for this speech, or even an English
adaptation of either.

>
> But anyway I think you misunderstood something. Dundlendish is not a 3rd Age
descendant of 1st Age Haladin. They do belong to the same branch (from the same
House of wandering Edain) but are not directly related, therefore they are
distant branches with an ample space for any differientation possible.
>
> So it is not sure that -in gave -il. Perhaps -in was the proto-Haladin ending,
retained in Haladin but abandoned in Dunlendish. Perhaps -il was the
proto-Haladin ending, replaced by Elvish -in in Haladin but retained in
Dunlendish. Or perhaps something wholly different.
>

I was probably too hasty in presenting my question. I am aware that the
Dunlendings do not necessarily descend from the People of Brethil but are likely
to be some of their cousins having stayed on the Eastern side of the Ered Luin.

However, even if we postulate both tongues descend from two different branches
of the Proto-Haladin family, the Haladin tongue of Brethil would be expected to
be much closer to the Proto-Haladin than the speech of the Dunlendings.

There would thus be two options:
- either _-in_ was already the Proto-Haladin plural marker (and then the
questions listed in my previous post hold as such)

- or both plural markers in Haladin and Dunlendish descend from a *third* ending
in Proto-Haladin. Indeed, if we postulate that the Dunlendish plural marker is
i-affection, we could make the hypothesis that the original Proto-Haladin plural
marker was _*-i_, becoming _-in_ in Brethil-Haladin only (but then, do we have
convincing reasons why we would observe _-i_ > _-in_ in Brethil-Haladin?)

Regarding the hypotheses listed on Tolkien Gateway, the comparison with
_Go-hilleg_ is interesting. However, even if I would tend to think that the
Mannish tribe of the Tal-Elmar story is much more likely to be from the Haladin
kin than from the Drúedain, that does not bring us very far. We have absolutely
no information on the meanings of these names, or the language they are supposed
to be in.

On 2009-12-29 Damien wrote:
> - or both plural markers in Haladin and Dunlendish
> descend from a *third* ending in Proto-Haladin.

Or there were more than one plural ending in the proto-language.
That wouldn't be exceptional in any way.  In fact it's English
which is rather exceptional even among languages of Europe in
only marginally using other than a single plural ending.
(Beside _-s_ it has in native words _-en_ (_oxen_) or zero
(_sheep_) or _-ren_ (only _children_), then an assortment of
Latin endings borrowed together with the words that use them.)

/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch atte melroch dotte se
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
                  A h-ammen ledin i phith!                \ \
       __  ____ ____    _____________ ____ __   __ __     / /
       \ \/___ \\__ \  /___  _____/\ \\__ \\ \  \ \\ \   / /
       / /   / /  /  \    / /Melroch\ \_/ // /  / // /  / /
      / /___/ /_ / /\ \  / /Melarokko\_  // /__/ // /__/ /
     /_________//_/  \_\/ /Eowine __  / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
    ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
|| Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||

Hi Phillip,

Thank you for your thought. Sorry I didn't reply earlier, but internet is an
rare thing where I'm at the moment.

While doing the research, I've looked into observe as well. The one I've found
is:

_cenda-_ vb. "watch" (not "guard", but observe to gain information) (VT48 :7).

It's quite suitable for the meaning of respect, but I couldn;t manage to form a
proper word with it. I've come to _encenda_ or _atacenda_. But they just don't
seem right, seen that _cenda-_ itself can be used as a prefix. I'm really quite
lost here.

But then, there is:

_cen_ = noun "sight" as the final element of some nouns

I seems to have a relation with _cenda-_, but it can be used as the final
element of a noun. Matchable with prefixes. So, I've formed _atacen_ , as you
can see in my previous message.

I really wouldn't know which other way to go. It's been fun to find the word
'respect' in quenya, but now I'm really stuck.

Respect has nothing to do with the sprek- (AFAIK). It does use (s)pek-
meaning observer, however. I am unsure if the initial /s/ is the s-mobile

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Phillip Wayne <exuyangi@...> wrote:
>
> Respect has nothing to do with the sprek- (AFAIK). It does use (s)pek-
> meaning observer, however. I am unsure if the initial /s/ is the s-mobile
>


I've been following this discussion with real interest, but one thing troubles
me.
I'm not sure how this word _respect_ is going to be used when it has been worked
out, but if it is going to appear in any piece of writing which others might
read, what are the chances that any of us will guess what the word is meant to
be?
It's great to do this kind of linguistic archaeology, I entirely approve of it -
BUT - if the required word is going to make difficulties for readers, then why
not work around it and creat something slightly different.
As an example (and I may be very wide of the intended mark)  if I wanted to say
someone was respected, and it happens that it was for his courage, I could
change that to say he was praised for his courage, thus making the matter clear
for the reader.

Well, that's my two penn'orth.  Do carry on the discussion, I'm learning as you
go!

And by the way,  al best wishes to everyone for 2010!

Nai elen estelo siluva tielyanna!

Tuilinde

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "michiru_benson" <michiru_benson@...> wrote:
>
>I got your idea now and actually the hints that Sindarin C/T/P are unaspirated
you pointed out are already very significant to me.


Accidentally, I came across a passage in Appendix E that supports the assumption
that Sindarin c/p/t are unaspirated:

"The original Fëanorian system also possessed a grade with extended stems, both
above and below the line. These usually represented aspirated consonants (e.g.
t+h, p+h, k+h), but might represent other consonantal variations required. They
were not needed in the languages of the Third Age that used this script; but the
extended forms were much used as variants (more clearly distingished from Grade
1) of Grade 3 and 4."

The statement that those specific Tengwar were not needed in the languages of
the Third Age seems to indicate that aspirated c/p/t did not exist in Sindarin
(and Quenya).

Erna

Is respect going to be used as synonym for honour? (verb and noun)

- Marille Ailinel

Aelindis wrote:

> "The original Fëanorian system also possessed a grade with extended
> stems, both above and below the line. These usually represented
> aspirated consonants (e.g. t+h, p+h, k+h), but might represent other
> consonantal variations required. They were not needed in the languages
> of the Third Age [. . .]"
>
> The statement that those specific Tengwar were not needed in the
> languages of the Third Age seems to indicate that aspirated c/p/t did
> not exist in Sindarin (and Quenya).

     More strictly, it indicates that aspiration was not a consonantal
variation that required representation in writing; i.e. there was no
phonemic constrast between aspirated and non-aspirated p/t/c.
     Hence, if I aspirate stops where Elves wouldn't, I merely have a
foreign accent, I am not changing the words into gibberish.

	 Sére,

		 Beregond

I think Tuilinde makes a good point.  The meaning we give to the word "respect"
in English doesn't necessarily follow from the roots (literally "to look back
at") but depends on post-Classical semantic developments in the Romance
languages.  There's no particular reason to expect that the same development
would occur in the history of Quenya, and therefore no reason for a reader of
neo-Quenya to interpret an unfamiliar word that is etymologically "look back" to
mean "to hold in high esteem".

It might be safer, from the point of view of comprehensibility, to try to
construct a word or phrase from elements meaning "to consider of high value",
though given the gaps in the Quenya lexicon I've found this to be harder than it
sounds.  I've toyed with something on the order of "arnot-" (v.), "arnotië"
(n.) from the elements "#ar-", "'high (i.e., noble, revered)'", and "not-",
"count, reckon" (definitions from Helge Fauskanger's lexicon), but I'm not sure
how that reads to an experienced Quenyist.  For all I know it might be as opaque
as a word meaning "look back".

Does this make any sense?

- Grant


-----Original Message-----
From: tuilinde42
Sent: Jan 1, 2010 6:55 AM
To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [elfling] Re: Part 2: 'Respect' in quenya: next best and the right verb







--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Phillip Wayne <exuyangi@...> wrote:
>
> Respect has nothing to do with the sprek- (AFAIK). It does use (s)pek-
> meaning observer, however. I am unsure if the initial /s/ is the s-mobile
>

I've been following this discussion with real interest, but one thing troubles
me.
I'm not sure how this word _respect_ is going to be used when it has been worked
out, but if it is going to appear in any piece of writing which others might
read, what are the chances that any of us will guess what the word is meant to
be?
It's great to do this kind of linguistic archaeology, I entirely approve of it -
BUT - if the required word is going to make difficulties for readers, then why
not work around it and creat something slightly different.
As an example (and I may be very wide of the intended mark) if I wanted to say
someone was respected, and it happens that it was for his courage, I could
change that to say he was praised for his courage, thus making the matter clear
for the reader.

Well, that's my two penn'orth. Do carry on the discussion, I'm learning as you
go!

And by the way, al best wishes to everyone for 2010!

Nai elen estelo siluva tielyanna!

Tuilinde

Here is an essay on the global theory of E.J. Kloczko concerning J.R.R.
Tolkien's invented languages and his subcreation :

http://lambenore.free.fr/downloads/jrrtgt.pdf (in English)

http://lambenore.free.fr/telechargements/jrrttg.pdf (in French)


I would be very interested by your remarks on both the essay and this theory.

Cordially,

David Giraudeau

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Beregond, Anders Stenström" <beregond@...>
wrote:
>
>     More strictly, it indicates that aspiration was not a consonantal
> variation that required representation in writing; i.e. there was no
> phonemic constrast between aspirated and non-aspirated p/t/c.
>     Hence, if I aspirate stops where Elves wouldn't, I merely have a
> foreign accent, I am not changing the words into gibberish.

I believe that the absence of the Tengwar with extended stems in Sindarin
writing does not merely mean that the representation of aspirated p/t/k was not
required. If p/t/k had been aspirated, the Elves, giving careful thought to
their writing system, would have used the available letters, presumably.

Of course, the fact that there was no phonemic contrast between aspirated and
non-aspirated p/t/k would not render spoken Sindarin, pronounced with aspirated
stops, unintelligible. It may be comparable to Italian with aspirated stops, as
"t(h)anti salut(h)i".

Regards,
Erna

Suilad,

I have been working the past year on creating a new Sindarin dictionary
application.
I've used Hesperides (the existing Sindarin dictionary application) a lot but it
could use a brush-up. I approached the author  - Didier Willis - and offered my
help in creating some or other new version of Hesperides / Dragon Flame which he
accepted.

The preparation took quite some time. This was mostly taken up by trying to get
my head around the specific format in which the data (the word lists) were put;
of thinking of a way to rework this to another format which I could work with
and, lastly, then actually doing that conversion. If you're interested: the
gritty details are below.

I'm now at the final stage: the point of creating the user interface: the way
the program works, receives input and presents output.
It would be very helpful to have the ideas of potential users about this: what
would you think of as an ideal dictionary application?

Even though its a pretty simple application, there are many choices to make that
can make all the difference between really breathtakingly usable (like Skitch)
or about as dumb as a sack full of frozen hammers and as usable as a virtual
paper weight (I've encountered some truly great examples of that latter category
in my job at a University Library).

It's about things like "what is a good way to search for a word?"
Maybe you have noticed that "auto-suggest" feature in Google .. maybe that would
work well.
Or have a list with matches that's being populated as you type so that you don't
have to click a "search" button (the current Hesperides can do that).
What search modes? Match the beginning of the word, *anywhere in* the word, or
exact matches? Any other possibilities?
Would it be handy to be able to add your own constructed words? Would it be good
to present those then with, say, another colour?
Or to be able to add your own private notes to dictionary entries?
Would it be good to have the Sindarin -> English (or French, or German) and the
English -> Sindarin both alongside one another?
Maybe offer the possibility to choose large fonts?

Anyway, I'd be happy with all ideas and suggestions.

Also, if there's anyone willing to test the app, let me know. The program will
run on any platform (mac, linux & windows - and some more even) and it's about
10 mb to download - that's including the database.


Thanks in advance
Garo hîdh,
-l

(technical stuff below here)

Didier told me that the word lists as he has them - both the ones on his
Hisweloke website as the list that's in the existing Hesperides application -
are in the "TEI" (Text Encoding Initiative, see http://www.tei-c.org/index.xml)
format, which is an XML format designed to represent text; it is specifically
geared towards use in linguistics, humanities and social sciences.
It is perfectly possible to use an XML based document as the source of an
application - Hesperides works like that. But it has some drawbacks like a
noticeable delay when the document loads - though this is typically one of those
areas that can stir up arguments between pro's and contra's. For me it's been
clear for years that my brains are somehow incompatible with XML, so if I were
to do this, I had to rework the whole thing to a relational format.
It's been a fun challenge to first figure out what subset of TEI was actually
used in the files that Didier had sent me and to remodel that into a database
schema. To make a longer story short, Perl was a good friend there: and again in
re-hashing the list to insert statements to populate the database with.
After that, I had a database consisting of some 12 tables that contained all the
information from the TEI encoded word list.

This was actually the hardest part. Building an application that then accesses
that database is quite straightforward. This week, I have built a little demo
application that does nothing but give the whole list of words and some
additional fields from the database .. translation, pronunciation, etcetera. It
is built in Java, so it runs on any platform; and the data are stored in very
lightweight embedded database (Apache Derby). The whole thing is about 10
megabytes now, database included.

It is also possible to create a web interface for the same database - something
that you can put on a website so that users can access it online. An applet, or
a php page, or Adobe Flex maybe if we want to make it really snazzy :)
It's not too hard to add additional languages to the available translations
(english, french and german at this moment).
And should someone have a TEI encoded Quenya wordlist, there's no reason that
that could not be integrated in the application as well - using some sort of
switching between modes, maybe.

I've put some of the technical info like the DB schema etc.  on
http://parendili.org/dict/ - you can also download the app there (though it does
not yet offer any functionality apart from scrolling through the word list and
displaying some fields). It will only need a Java Runtime Environment, but
practically all computers have that installed. If not, you can download it for
free at http://java.sun.com/javase/downloads/index.jsp

Dear elflingers

Happy New Year to all!!

I have just restored my page "Las Tengwar de Feanor", since it was formerly
stored at geocities, and they don´t provide free hosting any more.
The new url is
http://www.enrombel.byteact.com/

not recently updated, but i hope I shall do it soon.

ciao

Enrique

Aiya!

I have in the last month posted a few Q(u)enya recordings that might be of
interest to this group. Just today I recorded my Quenya translation of "Wie
schön leuchtet der Morgenstern" ("How bright appears the morning star") by
Philipp Nicolai (1599). It's a hymn for Epiphany, which is today! Here's the
link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZ7o3sGkqlg

I have also recorded my melody for Narqelion ("Autumn"), the oldest known poem
in Qenya:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWgfgsR3b_8

And here's a link to me saying "Merry Christmas" in several languages, including
the nearest Quenya equivalent (the famous "Merin" sentence):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErZ64X0bfEA

Last but not least, I've recited the beautiful Quenya poem by Valeria Barouch,
"Arda ilvanya" (Arda unmarred):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YV2HnEbcQJI

Nai elen siluva lyenna!

- Petri Tikka / Ondo Tambaro

http://www.youtube.com/ondotambaro
http://www.petritikka.com/elvish
http://www.facebook.com/petritikka

I never developped such a "bogus theory". Mr. Giraudeau has a much bigger
imagination than I do.

E. Kloczko

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "davidkiks" <davidkiks@...> wrote:
>
> Here is an essay on the global theory of E.J. Kloczko concerning J.R.R.
Tolkien's invented languages and his subcreation :
>
> http://lambenore.free.fr/downloads/jrrtgt.pdf (in English)
>
> http://lambenore.free.fr/telechargements/jrrttg.pdf (in French)
>
>
> I would be very interested by your remarks on both the essay and this theory.
>
> Cordially,
>
> David Giraudeau
>

> I never developped such a "bogus theory". Mr. Giraudeau has a much bigger
imagination than I do.
>
> E. Kloczko

Hi Edouard,

Happy New Year, too ! ^_^

I think your own words (in the quotations I gave) are meaningful enough.
However, such quotations could be extended.

In _Encyclopédie des Elfes_ p. 160, you gave the explicit title of "« théorie
globale » d’É. Kloczko" to your linguistic blending of J.R.R. Tolkien's
conceptions.
 
This last book is full of (mostly silent) personal blendings of J.R.R. Tolkien's
various mythological conceptions together with real pieces of tales (as
unauthorized French translations of texts from HoMe). I developed this point in
my review of your book (in French) :
 
http://lambenore.free.fr/telechargements/encyclo_EJK.pdf
 
 
I beg your pardon, since indeed you never used the words "global theory" for
anything else than this linguistic mix (that you developed for more than twenty
years now). Anyway, this neo-mythology you suggest is the exact counterpart of
your linguistic "global theory". Both are interesting _personal_ theories but
they actually become "bogus theories" if you present them as "a reference work"
(_Encyclopédie des Elfes_, back cover).
 
Yours,
 
David




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

An "add your own words" feature would be nice! (This way, anyone of us could add
new words in a timely fashion as they become published).

Also, will this application incorporate the myriad of new words brought to light
by the publication of Parma Eldalamberon 17? That's my big question.

Thanks,
Bj

Some of his letters and like, look much like Hindi/Sanskrit or even further
affield but part of the same tradition.

Seen some Mongol/Manchu writing that looks very Tengwar ??

Things like Cirth has been around, from before the Germanic peeopels picked
up Runes and like.

Mike

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Kloczko" <ejk@...> wrote:
>
> I never developped such a "bogus theory". Mr. Giraudeau has a much bigger
imagination than I do.
>

Well then, I would be interested to understand "the theory behind the work".

From this excerpt in VT8, it does seem you were considering such a global theory
at the time:

>Discrepancy between Eldarissa and later Q(u)enya is in fact due to
>evolution, which can be put this way : _Common Elvish_ > _Proto
>Eldarin_ > _Proto-Quenya_ > _Classical Quenya_ (or _Ingwi-Quenya_) >
>_Quenya_ (two dialects : _Vanyarin_ (in Aman) and _Noldorin_ (in
>Aman and later in Middle-earth) > _Eldarissa_ (mostly from
>_Vanyarin_ and _Aulenossian_, the language of the Aulenosse, the
>Noldor who stayed in Aman).

And the diagram shown on p.4 of David Giraudeau analysis, apparently taken from
"L'Encyclopedie des Elfes", displays the same kind of reasoning.

Now, it seems this last book you wrote was more of an introduction to Tolkien's
Elves in the Legendarium than a book focusing on the details of the languages.
Yet, that does not explain such explanations as:

>Telufinwe died `accidentally' in the fire of his ship in Losgar. His
>brother, inconsolable, was obviously able to project such a strong
>mental image of his twin, an _indemma_, that he persuaded the Humans
>of his presence during the entire First Age.

which was never stated in such a way by Tolkien, as far as I know. Consequently,
it seems it presents the Elves more in a fan-fiction manner than "according to
the works of J.R.R. Tolkien" (despite the subtitle of the aforementioned
"Encyclopedie").

Cheers,
Damien

Hi! First of all: good luck in your endeavour. I'm looking forward to using
the finished product. :)

Personally, I'd like to have features enabling me to search for endings,
beginnings... well, bits of words. For example, I would like to be able to
search for words ending in "ro" or beginning in "ent", or words that have
"ara" somewhere in them (but that start or end with "ara").  It would be
useful for times when I wonder "do we have any words in Sindarin with a "rd"
cluster inside of them (not at the end)? And searching for word endings is
of course very useful when making word rhyme. ;)

Apart from that, an important feature, I think, would be to allow for
searches in specific parts of the dictionary. For instance, I might want to
search for "a", the English word... so I would probably want to exclude
Sindarin from the search. The contrary could be true to.

Best regards,

Terry

Hello everyone!

I'm curious. As I follow these posts it occurs to me to ask; do the majority of
you study Tolkien's languages as a purely intellectual, scholarly exercise? 
With all this study and talk of "new" words and such, I wonder to what use all
this knowledge is put to?  Of course, each person if free to do - or not do -
as they please, but I wonder how many of you actually SPEAK the language?  I
understand that Tolkien's languages are not fully developed, although it appears
to be evolving, thanks to you folks, but do you ever verbally communicate with
others using Quenya or Sindarin, for example?

Thank you for any response here.