Hi all! Following your advices and pointers I've researched the word respect in

quenya by first looking at the etymology.



respect (n.) c.1300, from L. respectus "regard," lit. "act of looking back at

one," pp. of respicere "look back at, regard, consider," from re- "back" +

specere "look at".



So, I've come up with different possibilities. 5 to be exact. Firstly, "look at"

or "sight" in quenya has come to



_cen_ = noun "sight" as the final element of some nouns



For the translation of "back" or "again" I've found some prefixes



_ata-_ , _en-_  and _nan-_



I have some options..



Look back  _Atacen_

Look back  _encen_

Look back _nattirë_ [nattirë vb. "look back" (PE17 : 166)]

Fore(after)sight _apacen_

Insight _tercen_



I don't know for sure if any of them is accurate. I've tried my best to make it

so. Can you guys take a shot at it? Is there anything right? Am I on the right

track?



Oh yeah, I've also come to some othe probabilities. But was unable to work them

into something. Some of them are:



_yéta-_ vb. "look at" (LT1 : 262)

_cenda-_ vb. "watch" (not "guard", but observe to gain information) (VT48 : 7).

_enyalië_ "to recall" (Nam, RGEO:67, LotR3:V ch. 8, MR:405, UT:317)

CALL (noun) _yello_ (shouth, cry of triumph)

The root of the latin goes back to an Indo-European root 'spek-' (as in

Greek *skeptomai*, with metathesis), which seems to be more to the meaning

of 'observe', rather than 'see'. So, the root meaning might to back to

something like "observe again", perhaps going from an unrespected to a

respected position.



Just a thought.





On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 9:33 PM, Andrea <andreamosan@...> wrote:



>

>

> Hi all! Following your advices and pointers I've researched the word

> respect in quenya by first looking at the etymology.

>

> respect (n.) c.1300, from L. respectus "regard," lit. "act of looking back

> at one," pp. of respicere "look back at, regard, consider," from re- "back"

> + specere "look at".

>

> So, I've come up with different possibilities. 5 to be exact. Firstly,

> "look at" or "sight" in quenya has come to

>

> _cen_ = noun "sight" as the final element of some nouns

>

> For the translation of "back" or "again" I've found some prefixes

>

> _ata-_ , _en-_ and _nan-_

>

> I have some options..

>

> Look back _Atacen_

> Look back _encen_

> Look back _nattirë_ [nattirë vb. "look back" (PE17 : 166)]

> Fore(after)sight _apacen_

> Insight _tercen_

>

> I don't know for sure if any of them is accurate. I've tried my best to

> make it so. Can you guys take a shot at it? Is there anything right? Am I on

> the right track?

>

> Oh yeah, I've also come to some othe probabilities. But was unable to work

> them into something. Some of them are:

>

> _yéta-_ vb. "look at" (LT1 : 262)

> _cenda-_ vb. "watch" (not "guard", but observe to gain information) (VT48 :

> 7).

> _enyalië_ "to recall" (Nam, RGEO:67, LotR3:V ch. 8, MR:405, UT:317)

> CALL (noun) _yello_ (shouth, cry of triumph)

>

>

>







--

I enjoy the massacre of ads. This sentence will slaughter ads without a

messy bloodbath.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Phillip,



Thank you for your thought. Sorry I didn't reply earlier, but internet is an

rare thing where I'm at the moment.



While doing the research, I've looked into observe as well. The one I've found

is:



_cenda-_ vb. "watch" (not "guard", but observe to gain information) (VT48 :7).



It's quite suitable for the meaning of respect, but I couldn;t manage to form a

proper word with it. I've come to _encenda_ or _atacenda_. But they just don't

seem right, seen that _cenda-_ itself can be used as a prefix. I'm really quite

lost here.



But then, there is:



_cen_ = noun "sight" as the final element of some nouns



I seems to have a relation with _cenda-_, but it can be used as the final

element of a noun. Matchable with prefixes. So, I've formed _atacen_ , as you

can see in my previous message.



I really wouldn't know which other way to go. It's been fun to find the word

'respect' in quenya, but now I'm really stuck.

btu how does Spek and Speak related, or is much the same? Those who speak

are those who to respect? Ge Sprechen? I speak? I respect or I am respected?



I know here in Alaska, one word for Drink the action, becomes Water in

another dialect/language, and then becomes Ocean, by the time it goesw to

the next language down the way..



Inupiaq > Yupik > Aleutitiq



Same word or close to it?



Mike

"Speak" developed from an I-E root containing an /r/ (still present in Old

English "sprecan" and modern German "sprechen").  The "Oxford Introduction to

Proto-Indo-European" gives the form of the root as "(s)preg".  In addition to

the Germanic words it also gave rise to Albanian "shpreg" ("express, voice,

utter").  This seems to have nothing to do with "(s)pek", which never had an

/r/.



Regards,



Grant



-----Original Message-----

>From: Abrigon Gusiq <abrigon@...>

>Sent: Dec 25, 2009 10:10 AM

>To: elfling@yahoogroups.com

>Subject: Re: [elfling] Part 2: 'Respect' in quenya: next best and the right

verb

>

>btu how does Spek and Speak related, or is much the same? Those who speak

>are those who to respect? Ge Sprechen? I speak? I respect or I am respected?

>

>I know here in Alaska, one word for Drink the action, becomes Water in

>another dialect/language, and then becomes Ocean, by the time it goesw to

>the next language down the way..

>

>Inupiaq > Yupik > Aleutitiq

>

>Same word or close to it?

>

>Mike

>

>

>

>------------------------------------

>

>--

>Manager address: elfling-owner@yahoogroups.com

>Unsub address: elfling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

>Elfling welcome: http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea/elfling.html

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>

>

>

Respect has nothing to do with the sprek- (AFAIK). It does use (s)pek-

meaning observer, however. I am unsure if the initial /s/ is the s-mobile

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Phillip Wayne <exuyangi@...> wrote:

>

> Respect has nothing to do with the sprek- (AFAIK). It does use (s)pek-

> meaning observer, however. I am unsure if the initial /s/ is the s-mobile

>





I've been following this discussion with real interest, but one thing troubles

me.

I'm not sure how this word _respect_ is going to be used when it has been worked

out, but if it is going to appear in any piece of writing which others might

read, what are the chances that any of us will guess what the word is meant to

be?

It's great to do this kind of linguistic archaeology, I entirely approve of it -

BUT - if the required word is going to make difficulties for readers, then why

not work around it and creat something slightly different.

As an example (and I may be very wide of the intended mark)  if I wanted to say

someone was respected, and it happens that it was for his courage, I could

change that to say he was praised for his courage, thus making the matter clear

for the reader.



Well, that's my two penn'orth.  Do carry on the discussion, I'm learning as you

go!



And by the way,  al best wishes to everyone for 2010!



Nai elen estelo siluva tielyanna!



Tuilinde

On 2009-12-31 Phillip Wayne wrote:

> Respect has nothing to do with the sprek- (AFAIK). It does use

> (s)pek- meaning observer, however.



Correct.



> I am unsure if the initial

> /s/ is the s-mobile



It is.  The Sanskrit cognate is _paç-_.



/BP

Is respect going to be used as synonym for honour? (verb and noun)



- Marille Ailinel

I think Tuilinde makes a good point.  The meaning we give to the word "respect"

in English doesn't necessarily follow from the roots (literally "to look back

at") but depends on post-Classical semantic developments in the Romance

languages.  There's no particular reason to expect that the same development

would occur in the history of Quenya, and therefore no reason for a reader of

neo-Quenya to interpret an unfamiliar word that is etymologically "look back" to

mean "to hold in high esteem".



It might be safer, from the point of view of comprehensibility, to try to

construct a word or phrase from elements meaning "to consider of high value",

though given the gaps in the Quenya lexicon I've found this to be harder than it

sounds.  I've toyed with something on the order of "arnot-" (v.), "arnotië"

(n.) from the elements "#ar-", "'high (i.e., noble, revered)'", and "not-",

"count, reckon" (definitions from Helge Fauskanger's lexicon), but I'm not sure

how that reads to an experienced Quenyist.  For all I know it might be as opaque

as a word meaning "look back".



Does this make any sense?



- Grant





-----Original Message-----

From: tuilinde42

Sent: Jan 1, 2010 6:55 AM

To: elfling@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [elfling] Re: Part 2: 'Respect' in quenya: next best and the right verb















--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Phillip Wayne <exuyangi@...> wrote:

>

> Respect has nothing to do with the sprek- (AFAIK). It does use (s)pek-

> meaning observer, however. I am unsure if the initial /s/ is the s-mobile

>



I've been following this discussion with real interest, but one thing troubles

me.

I'm not sure how this word _respect_ is going to be used when it has been worked

out, but if it is going to appear in any piece of writing which others might

read, what are the chances that any of us will guess what the word is meant to

be?

It's great to do this kind of linguistic archaeology, I entirely approve of it -

BUT - if the required word is going to make difficulties for readers, then why

not work around it and creat something slightly different.

As an example (and I may be very wide of the intended mark) if I wanted to say

someone was respected, and it happens that it was for his courage, I could

change that to say he was praised for his courage, thus making the matter clear

for the reader.



Well, that's my two penn'orth. Do carry on the discussion, I'm learning as you

go!



And by the way, al best wishes to everyone for 2010!



Nai elen estelo siluva tielyanna!



Tuilinde