Hello All,

Some time ago I made available upon request an Adunaic wordlist that
incorporated all the declensions, inflections, etc. of all known words.
I have been hard at work recently revising, formatting, updating, and adding
appendixes to this wordlist.

If anyone has any interest in this, I would be happy to pass it along. It is
formatted in Word 2003 form, so as to be compatible.
I would appreciate criticism and suggestions as well - ALOT.


�d� b�th�ya nakham... :)

Bj

Dear Quenyists,

I was hoping to elicit some comments on the use of the negative elements _laa_
and _um-_ with elision of the main verb, but it's been two weeks since I posted
and I've had no responses.  Would it help to pose a more specific translation
question?  The phrase I'm looking to translate into Quenya is "Of course I speak
Quenya.  Doesn't everybody?"  Depending on the choice of negative verb, my best
attempt at this looks like either

   _� quetin Quenya.  Man �a ye l�?_

or

   _� quetin Quenya.  Man �a ye um�?_

(See my original message, to which this is a reply, for some of my concerns
about how these verbs are to be used.)

While I'm here, negative verbs aside, is the rest of the translation acceptable
Quenya?  Are there better ways to express what I'm after?  I'm pretty new at
this.

With thanks,

- Grant


--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "ghicks02" <ghicks02@...> wrote:
>
> ...According to _Vinyar Tengwar_ 49:13, a late text by JRRT suggested that the
negative particle _laa_ could be inflected for tense when the principal verb was
elided, giving forms such as _laia_, _laane_, _lauve_, and so on.  However, a
later version of the same text is quoted as saying that "the _laa_ does not
express difference of tenses, normally unnecessary; the tense of _laa_ plus
pronominal affix is always that of the previous verb, now negativized."
>
> This revision seems to invalidate the earlier tensed examples (_laane_,
_lauve_, . . .), which is fine; I understand why JRRT found them unnecessary. 
But I'm having a little trouble interpreting the second clause.  It seems that
"the [tenseless] _laa_" and "_laa_ plus pronominal suffix" are meant to refer to
the same entity.  This would mean that standalone _laa_ can't appear without a
pronominal suffix, which is odd (why should _Melinyes mal larye_ be possible,
but not the same sentence with a noun in place of the -_rye_?).  The alternative
would be that JRRT meant the qualification "plus pronominal affix" to be
optional, and that standalone _laa_ can in fact occur with a nominal subject
(_Melinyes mal laa i Noldo_ [_mal i Noldo laa_?]).
>
> I wonder, too, whether the negative verb _um-_ could be used in place of
standalone _laa_.  I notice that in 1999 Helge Fauskanger posted a sentence here
that used _ume_ as a copula with elided complement (_Elye vanya, nan inye ume_,
where _vanya_ in the second clause is implied).  Granted this was 10 years ago,
and there's been a lot of water under the bridge, but it makes me wonder whether
it wouldn't also be possible to elide the infinitive complement when _um-_ is
used as a negative auxiliary.  _Melinyes mal i Noldo ume_?
>
> How do people with Quenya experience feel about this?  I look forward to your
comments.
>
> Regards,
>
> Grant
>

There is an event planned for August 2010 called "Festival in the Shire - A
celebration of all things Tolkien inspired".  It has merchandise for sale on the
Cafe Press website and the so-called "Elvish" logo is horrendous - it appears to
be a form of 'pig Latin', i.e. a mangled version of the English.

I am going to point this out to the organisers, but wondered whether there was
an acceptable translation I could suggest instead.

I have got as far as "Mereth vi Drann", which I'm not sure is correct anyway,
but then got stuck.

Would anyone be willing to help out with a suggestion?

Claire

> I was hoping to elicit some comments on the use of the negative elements
> _laa_ and _um-_ with elision of the main verb, but it's been two weeks
> since I posted and I've had no responses.

Admittedly, I have not been smart enough to figure out just what your
question was before your second mail, so I did not answer. I guess I now
understand a bit better. :-)

> Would it help to pose a more specific translation question?  The
> phrase I'm looking to translate into Quenya is "Of course I speak
> Quenya.  Doesn't everybody?"

It's not straightforward to argue what Tolkien, given that phrase, would
have done. The use of question tags like 'doesn't everyone?' or 'isn't
it?' is pretty typical of idiomatic English, but is not so common in other
languages. So, my guess is that Tolkien might have invented some special
idiomatic Quenya way of expressing that idea of anticipated confirmation
typical for these question tags. So even understanding the negative verb
may not answer your actual question.


>> ...According to _Vinyar Tengwar_ 49:13, a late text by JRRT suggested that
>> the negative particle _laa_ could be inflected for tense when the
>> principal verb was elided, giving forms such as _laia_, _laane_,
>> _lauve_, and so on.  However, a later version of the same text is
>> quoted as saying that "the _laa_ does not express difference of tenses,
>> normally unnecessary; the tense of _laa_ plus pronominal affix is
>> always that of the previous verb, now negativized."
>>
>> This revision seems to invalidate the earlier tensed examples
>> (_laane_, _lauve_, . . .), which is fine; I understand why JRRT found
>> them unnecessary.  But I'm having a little trouble interpreting the
>> second clause.  It seems that "the [tenseless] _laa_" and "_laa_ plus
>> pronominal suffix" are meant to refer to the same entity.  This would
>> mean that standalone _laa_ can't appear without a pronominal suffix,
>> which is odd (why should _Melinyes mal larye_ be possible, but not the
>> same sentence with a noun in place of the -_rye_?).  The alternative
>> would be that JRRT meant the qualification "plus pronominal affix" to
>> be optional, and that standalone _laa_ can in fact occur with a nominal
>> subject (_Melinyes mal laa i Noldo_ [_mal i Noldo laa_?]).

Before the sentence you cite I find 'This stem should not form a negative
verb or take pronominal affixes unless the verb is not expressed.' This
suggests a third alternative: If a verb is present, the tense and
pronominal affix of _laa_ is not expressed but always assumed to be that
of the verb. Only if _laa_ stands alone, it has tense and pronoun markers.

Negative verbs are manifestly a topic where Tolkien's concepts were in
constant flux - so there is in a sense no 'preferable' version - the
revision is not in any sense 'more' valid than the concept outlined
before.

As a side note, be aware that _?-rye_ as a pronominal suffix doesn't
actually occur anywhere, although we have by now several complete tables
of pronominal endings in PE17. Tolkien used _-ste,-ssa_ and _-sse_ as long
versions of _-s_, but never _?-rye_ - presumably he really did not want
this form to exist.


>> I wonder, too, whether the negative verb _um-_ could be used in place of
>> standalone _laa_.

That's a concept from the Etymologies, and we now now from PE17 that in
the Quenya of LOTR he had the verb _ua-_ in mind for that purpose. That
comes with its own rules - in modern Quenya _ua-_ takes the pronoun and
the following verb the tense, in archaic Quenya the negated verb is always
in infinitive and _ua-_ takes both tense and pronoun.

Maybe some of these remarks are useful...

Cheers,

* Thorsten

I've got a suggestion in Quenya (although I'm not sure how acceptable it is):

"Merend� i ardass� - asar ily� nation mihwestain� Tolkieno"

First of all, "mihwesta" is basicly a made-up word because we don't have an
attested word for "inspire".
Second, I suppose "Tolkien" needs to be addapted to Quenya phonology but I'm not
competent enough to do that.

That's my best guess anyway. Hope it helps.

Qu�co

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "claire.richards40" <claire.richards40@...>
wrote:
>
> There is an event planned for August 2010 called "Festival in the Shire - A
celebration of all things Tolkien inspired".  It has merchandise for sale on the
Cafe Press website and the so-called "Elvish" logo is horrendous - it appears to
be a form of 'pig Latin', i.e. a mangled version of the English.
>
> I am going to point this out to the organisers, but wondered whether there was
an acceptable translation I could suggest instead.
>
> I have got as far as "Mereth vi Drann", which I'm not sure is correct anyway,
but then got stuck.
>
> Would anyone be willing to help out with a suggestion?
>
> Claire
>

> Would it help to pose a more specific translation question? The
phrase I'm looking to translate into Quenya is "Of course I speak
Quenya. Doesn't everybody?"

_� quetin Quenya. Ilquen laia?_ should express something like "indeed I
speak Quenya. Doesn't everybody?"

- HKF

Hi, Claire,

I've known about the Festival for some time, but not looked at the website. 
I've now done so, and could see no Elvish in the Logo - are you sure what you're
looking at isn't actually Welsh?  That's what it looks like to me - after all,
the event is happening in Wales, (which is hardly the Shire!!! But that's
another beef!)

If you want to offer them an Elven logo the one I came up with is

_I Vereth vin Thrann_. Or, _Bereth vin Thrann_  In Etymologies it explains that
Noldorin Mereth was later changed to Bereth (although the Mereth in the text was
not changed).  It seems there is no Sindarin word for _festival_ , and,
understandably no Quenya word for _Shire_  So whatever is offered is a bit of a
cobbled together thing.

See if you can find out about the Welsh.

I hope that is some help,

Tuilinde

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "claire.richards40" <claire.richards40@...>
wrote:
>
> There is an event planned for August 2010 called "Festival in the Shire - A
celebration of all things Tolkien inspired".  It has merchandise for sale on the
Cafe Press website and the so-called "Elvish" logo is horrendous - it appears to
be a form of 'pig Latin', i.e. a mangled version of the English.
>
> I am going to point this out to the organisers, but wondered whether there was
an acceptable translation I could suggest instead.
>
> I have got as far as "Mereth vi Drann", which I'm not sure is correct anyway,
but then got stuck.
>
> Would anyone be willing to help out with a suggestion?
>
> Claire
>

Hey All!

It's been a bit since I've done any poetry in Quenya (or any Tolkienian
language, for that matter), so I decided to compose a text.
Here is the result of my efforts! I would appreciate reviews and suggestions.

Luhtiend� Tind�merel!
Melmenya lyen cala v' �l,
Ve F�anoro Silmaril,
Vorima v� Taniquetil.
A Meld� i n� i notto
I M�lion Moringotto,
Naly� elda, al�pima
Ar ni atan f�rima.
Vora sin' an�rienten
Melmenya eress' atanen,
Nan melanyel mi endanya
Ar lyen antan indonya.
S� renyalv� tauress�,
Ar ic�lien sin' n�si�.
Melmelya ull�m� f�ruvas,
Melmenya oial� tintuvas.

"O Luthien Tin�viel!
My love for you shines like a star,
Like a Jewel of F�anor,
As everlasting as Mount Everwhite.
O my love, who art the foe
Of Morgoth and his thralls,
You are an elf, untouchable
And I, a mortal man.
I have always been told
My love is for one of my kindred only,
But I love you in my heart
And I give my love to you.
Now we wander amidst the great forest
And I am truly resolved
Your love will never fade
And my love will always sparkle."


=)
Bj

Thorsten, thanks for your reply.  Feel free to self-deprecate, but I suspect
that at least part of the problem was that I wasn't smart enough to phrase my
question(s) in comprehensible form.

I drafted a long and complicated response, but I found I was mostly just
restating what I'd already written, and nobody needs that.  I do recognize that
the answer to "WWJRRTD?" is probably forever out of our reach, but, to cut to
the chase, I think what I'd like to know is whether a sentence like my _Man �a
ye l�?_ raises a Quenyist's hackles.  And if so, whether the same sentence would
be any better with the /other/ negative verb, _Man �a ye ua?_.  (I originally
used _um�_ because that's what Helge Fauskanger has in his course, which was one
of the first things I found when I started looking into Quenya; I've since
discovered yours and see that you treat _ua_ fairly thoroughly.)

Finally, am I right that the following full statements of the question, complete
with main verb, would be grammatically correct?

_Man �a ye l� quetis?_

_Man �a ye ua quetis?_

Many thanks,

- Grant

Thanks, Helge.  Am I right that _laia_ is present tense of _lá_?  If I wanted
an aorist equivalent, would this simply be _lá_?

- Grant

-----Original Message-----
From: "Helge K. Fauskanger"
Sent: Nov 24, 2009 7:33 PM
To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [elfling] "Of course I speak..."





> Would it help to pose a more specific translation question? The
phrase I'm looking to translate into Quenya is "Of course I speak
Quenya. Doesn't everybody?"

_É quetin Quenya. Ilquen laia?_ should express something like "indeed I
speak Quenya. Doesn't everybody?"

- HKF

Hi, Claire,

I get the impression Tuilinde is right - I've looked at the Festival in the
Shire site and at their Cafepress merchandise e-shop, and I can find no Elvish
logo, nor one labeled 'Elvish', but I can find one labeled 'Welsh' and indeed
'speaking' Welsh.

But perhaps you have already been in contact with Mark Faith and he has
withdrawn the Elvish logo? Because I don't doubt that is what he would do. I
think he would also welcome an Elvish version of his text (preferably Sindarin,
seeing it's phonology is so close to Welsh), if we could agree on what we think
is a correct one here.

Greetings,
Mithrennaith

BTW, Tuilinde, good to see you haven't been washed away by the recent torrential
rains. Certainly no joking matter. I wonder, with all the bridges closed,
whether anyone in the county can go more than a few miles. HJS.

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "tuilinde42" <tuilinde@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Claire,
>
> I've known about the Festival for some time, but not looked at the website. 
I've now done so, and could see no Elvish in the Logo - are you sure what you're
looking at isn't actually Welsh?  That's what it looks like to me - after all,
the event is happening in Wales, (which is hardly the Shire!!! But that's
another beef!)
>
> .....,
>
> Tuilinde
>
> --- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "claire.richards40" <claire.richards40@>
wrote:
> >
> > There is an event planned for August 2010 called "Festival in the Shire - A
celebration of all things Tolkien inspired".  It has merchandise for sale on the
Cafe Press website and the so-called "Elvish" logo is horrendous - it appears to
be a form of 'pig Latin', i.e. a mangled version of the English.
> >
> > I am going to point this out to the organisers, but wondered whether there
was an acceptable translation I could suggest instead.
> >
> > .....
> >
> > Claire
> >
>

I tried to ponder whether the famous "three Sindarin dialects" (Falathren,
Mithrim and Doriathrin) as known from the Etymologies could still be considered
as dialects of Sindarin of the "later Legendarium" of "Quendi and Eldar".

For this comparison of course, we usually consider Sindarin proper as Falathren
and Ilkorin as Mithrim. So I apologize to those who oppose this kind of retcons,
but I did this for fun.

Unfortunately the words rarely overlap, so we can't compare adequately many
words in all the three languages but some of them do point to a common ancestor
("Old Sindarin")

Of the words that are attested in all three languages I can mention:

S - D - M
doron - dorn - dorn
daer - dair - dair
dor - dor - dor
gardh - garth - garth
thoren - thurin - thuuren
edhel - egl(a) - egl(ath)

I can tell that each of these triplets of examples can derive from a common
ancestor (cognates).

There is however a divergence between some of them and some of them need some
further endings, for example

S: edhel D/M: egl-
S: gannel M: gangel
S: ereg D: regorn
S: pethron D: pindor (retconned from cwindor)

and some examples of words that dont seem to come from a common ancestor

S: gelion M: dilion (PQ GJEL becomes dil in Mithrim, while "Old Sindarin" is
normally *gel, so Mithrim here cannot be connected to the OS etymology)
S: gwaew M: gwau (S ae comes from "OS" ai but that would bring M **gwaiu instead
of gwau)
S: gwilwileth M: gwilwering

A final note on Doriathrin. While I have read in Ardalambion that Doriathrin in
the Etymologies can pass as archaic Sindarin, this is hardly the case in my
opinio, nat least when considering "Old Sindarin". Most importantly Doriathrin
seems to drop the second unaccented vowel

goroth - gorth
doron - dorn
golodh - gold
garaf - garm

Here, the Sindarin forms are closer to the PQ roots, while the Doriathrin forms
are one simplification further. Nothing else seems conservative or archaic in
Doriathrin.

So, I don't think the three languages, as presented in the Etymologies could be
mutually intelligible to be considered dialects.




___________________________________________________________
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Hi!

On my forum, we are trying to translate "by a dream", that is "olos
(olor-)" with an instrumental ending.

But how can we do that?

Should we consider that the -r of olor- is a standard consonant, so
should we say "olorenen"? or should we apply the pattern of the plural
dative? something like "oloinen", because of the "-r"??

* * * * *

Another question: we want to create the verb "to meet" from "omenti�",
is "omenta-" correct?

Thank in advance for your help.

Evenstar

http://www.ambar-eldaron.com
Le Monde des Elfes

Hi friend, do you know of anyone who has put the Elvish language on tape or
cd?  Thanks, tanyaisa

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "faelach69" <bward@...> wrote:
>
>
> In my recent musings on the Adunaic tongue, something caught my eye that had
never occured to me before. This may have been noticed and/or brought up by
others in this group in the distant past; but it has not to my knowledge.
>
> The one verb tense in Adunaic that we know little about would be the perfect
tense. As we all know: in Quenya this is formed by prefixing the stem vowel,
lengthening the stem vowel (if possible), and adding the ending _-ie_ (from a
primitive *-(i)j� or the like).
>
> The reason for all the above is that I believe there are three names in
Adunaic that may be prime examples of what the perfect tense may look like. The
words I'm referring to are _Akallab�_ 'The Downfallen' (capitalized to make it a
proper name) [SD 375], _Akallab�th_ 'The Downfallen' [Silm. 281], and
> _hi-Akallab�th_ 'She-that-hath-fallen'.
>
> What I propose is that the first name, _Akallab�_, may be our example of the
Adunaic perfect tense, _Akallab�th_ may be a personalized form of this verb, and
_hi-Akallab�th_ may be an example of how pronouns were added to the perfect form
of the verb.
>
> A detailed explanation:
>
> 1. _Akallab�_: I propose that this is the perfect tense of the verb _kalab-_
'fall down' [SD 439]. I believe here we have a stem vowel (or characteristic
vowel) _a-_ prefixed to the past tense form of this verb, _kallaba_ 'fell' [SD
429], with a suffix related to the Quenya _-ie_ (_-�_, _-i_ or the like).
Putting it all together, we would expect a primitive _*a-kallaba-�_ >
_akallab�_. I believe this is out perfect tense.
> NOTE: Notice that neither _Akallab�_ or _Akallab�th_ have the word 'she' in
their translations. More on this below...
>
> 2. _Akallab�th_: If we assume that the above is our example of the perfect
tense, we could view this word as a personalized form. We know that this is a
feminine name, so it would follow that we have a feminine nominal suffix
_#-(e)th_ or the like.
>
> 3: _hi-Akallab�th_: I believe this is our example of how pronouns are affixed
to the perfect tense of the verb. It seems it is simply prefixed (via a hyphen).
In this case the pronoun is _hi-_ 'she'. Again, the ending _#-(e)th_
personalizes the verb.
>
> That's just my hypothesis - it seems to make credible sense; but I want
opinions.
>
> Let me know what you all think.
>
> Cheers!
> BJ
>

I would appreciate opinions! ;)

BJ

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, tanya stacey <tanstacey02@...> wrote:
>
> Hi friend, do you know of anyone who has put the Elvish language on tape or
cd?  Thanks, tanyaisa
>

For audio of elvish being spoken, I would first and foremost point you to
Tolkien's own recordings. These can be found in the "JRR Tolkien Audio
Collection" (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0694525707/elvishlinguistic)

If you can't get your hands on this(I would suggest checking your library
system), there's one other resource I would recommend:
<http://www.jrrvf.com/~glaemscrafu/texts/index-a.htm> is an excellent website if
you are looking for examples of Elvish (and many other Tolkien languages) being
spoken. Many clips from the Audio Collection can be found here.

I always feel silly when people walk in and discover me listening to this stuff!
What a secret vice, indeed!

As for language tutorials on audio, I'm sure someone else might be able to help!
:)

Bj =)

I don't see how its dative plural form supports **oloinen, for, I think, it will
be *olorin(from earlier *olosin).
Its instrumental singular should be *olorenen, which would be the proper
descendant of earlier *olosenen. The r in olor-, as a part of the stem, should
appear in all the oblique cases.

Suilad o
~~Morthegil o Ennorath

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Evenstar <evenstar62@...> wrote:
>
> Hi!
>
> On my forum, we are trying to translate "by a dream", that is "olos
> (olor-)" with an instrumental ending.
>
> But how can we do that?
>
> Should we consider that the -r of olor- is a standard consonant, so
> should we say "olorenen"? or should we apply the pattern of the plural
> dative? something like "oloinen", because of the "-r"??
>
> * * * * *
>
> Another question: we want to create the verb "to meet" from "omenti?quot;,
> is "omenta-" correct?
>
> Thank in advance for your help.
>
> Evenstar
>
> http://www.ambar-eldaron.com
> Le Monde des Elfes
>

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Evenstar <evenstar62@...> wrote:

> On my forum, we are trying to translate "by a dream", that is "olos
> (olor-)" with an instrumental ending.
>
> But how can we do that?
>
> Should we consider that the -r of olor- is a standard consonant, so
> should we say "olorenen"? or should we apply the pattern of the plural
> dative? something like "oloinen", because of the "-r"??

1. First off, the _r_ is surely not a "standard consonant". The Primitive Base
that this word is derived from is stated in ETYM as being "LOS". The noun is
simply a base, prefixed by the sund�ma (stem vowel): �-LOS (which is attested by
Tolkien).

Medial _s_ became _r_ via _z_ in Exilic Quenya. The development of this word
would have been PQ *olos- > VQ *oloz- > EQ *olor-.

_olorenen_ would seem to be the correct instrumental inflection here. =)

Regarding your statement "... should we apply the pattern of the plural dative?
something like "oloinen", because of the "-r"??".

By "plural dative", I assume you mean plural instrumental. (The plural dative of
this word would be _olorin_).

Using the plural instrumental pattern would clearly not work. The pattern of the
plural is for PLURALS. The _-r-_ in this word in no way signifies plurality. As
stated above, this is a normal development of medial _s_. If you were to use the
plural instrumental pattern to signify "by dreamS", however, your result would
be _olorinen_.

2. You are correct in deducing the verbal stem _#omenta-_ from _omenti�_.
Remember, though, that this would mean the junction of the direction of two
people or groups.

Bj =)

Hello Again!

After posting my previous answer, I was mulling your question around in my
mind...

It seems you could also use the form _olornen_, as the liquid _rn_ is a
compatible cluster. This would have also developed this way if you consider PQ
_*olos_ + _*nen(a)_. In fact, this is probably preferable! :)

Just a second thought (that turned out better than the first)!

BJ =)

Hello Folks,
On page 49 of PE17,  Tolkien states (concerning the name Nimrodel):
"... Nim is evidently the Telerin word nimbi 'white'.  Cf.  Nimrais
"White-peaks". Rest is unclear."
My question concerns the Telerin word nimbi. While this would be
slightly plausible as the form this adjective would take with following
attachments, Tolkien seems to imply that nimbi  is the actual
independent adjective itself. Telerin, however, has no final -i; this
evolved to -� at a much earlier stage.
The Primitive Quendian form of this word would be *ninkwi or the like
(from the base NIK). It would have developed to *nimp� in Telerin,
with, indeed, a compound form *nimpi-. Where does Tolkien come up with
the ( supposedly independent) form nimbi?
We get some sort of an answer on page 168, under the root NIK. Tolkien
gives us Quenya 'ninqu� (-i)'.  He also goes one further; he gives an
explanation of how nim- could be derived in Sindarin. He writes "nim,
white (usual word) is < nimbi, as nimrais = Q n�quetil, snow peak".
He then delves into the origins of how the cluster mb could arise from
mp: "This is probably an early Sindarin alteration at stage nimpi (which
seemed phonetically unsuitable) > nimbi".  There we have the form nimbi,
but it is still primitive, and would eventually become nim in Sindarin.
But does this rule out the Telerin problem??
So....Which are we to assume:
1. Nimbi is Telerin, and an independent word. This would create problems
for the system of -i > -�, though.2. Tolkien is just giving the
compound without adding a dash... and it's still Telerin.3. We just
assume that the entry under NIK is the correct explanation, and nimbi is
just Old Sindarin.4. Tolkien was just stating cognates and giving
examples of how nim could be derived from both Sindarin AND Telerin,
without having         made up his mind.
(Feel free to come up with a fifth option!)
Does anyone have a plausible solution to this problem? Just wanting some
opinions! :)
Bj =)






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> On page 49 of PE17,  Tolkien states (concerning the name Nimrodel):
> "... Nim is evidently the Telerin word nimbi 'white'.  Cf.  Nimrais
> "White-peaks". Rest is unclear."
> My question concerns the Telerin word nimbi. While this would be
> slightly plausible as the form this adjective would take with following
> attachments, Tolkien seems to imply that nimbi  is the actual
> independent adjective itself. Telerin, however, has no final -i; this
> evolved to -� at a much earlier stage.

There is simply a confusion of terms here, Tolkien sometimes uses 'Telerin' to
refer to the third tribe of the Eldar, i.e. to the Sindar, the Teleri of Aman
and the Nandor.
To cite the newest source, see for example:
'Telerin. This name is often given to the tongues of any Elf-people that are of
Telerian origin. But the name if best reserved for the language of the Teleri
that came at last to Valinor.' (PE18:77)
If one calls the ancestral language 'Common Lindarin', the change _nimpi_ >
_nimbi_ happened there and should be inherited in Amanya Telerin as _*nimbe_.

RR.

Evenstar wrote:

  > On my forum, we are trying to translate "by a dream", that is "olos
(olor-)" with an instrumental ending.
But how can we do that?

The example _fazne, farne_ "foliage" from a root PHAS (VT46:9) would
indicate that post-vocalic _sn_ goes to _zn_ > _rn_. So I assume that
the instrumental form of _olos_ is *_olornen_, for archaic *_oloznen_.

  > Another question: we want to create the verb "to meet" from
"omenti�", is "omenta-" correct?

If we think of _omenti�_ as a gerund - yes, probably. I have used the
verb *_omenta-_ in some of my own translations, but it should be noted
that Tolkien at least in one source interpreted this word as containing
_tie_ "way, path", _omentie_ being a "union of paths". If so,
interpreting it as a gerund may be a dubious venture.

The (continuative?) form _v�la_ is used for "see" in the sense of "meet"
in the Arctic sentence, so lacking better options, I am now inclined to
go for _vel-_ as the verb "meet".

- HKF

>>If we think of _omentië_ as a gerund - yes, probably. I have used the
>>verb *_omenta-_ in some of my own translations, but it should be noted
>>that Tolkien at least in one source interpreted this word as containing
>>_tie_ "way, path", _omentie_ being a "union of paths". If so,
>>interpreting it as a gerund may be a dubious venture.

At least in some point Tolkien seems to consider it a gerund. In Quendi and
Eldar we see the word "yomenie" not "yomenTie", therefore pointing to stems
y/omen and y/omenta.

Btw where is the source of the "tie" etymology?




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Mae govannen, mellyn :)

Today I finished the ascii tengwar font, which supports all
characters from Daniel S. Smith's classic keymapping

Little tool for using this font is called TENGlet and it is written in python
language.
The reason I didn't write figlet font instead is, that figlet doesn't
support ,,carriage return'', which is mandatory for tengwar fontfile.

Details on the project page:
http://int21h.ic.cz/users/BOby/tenglet/

I will be glad for any feedback!

Hi All,

I would like to know if there is any hint or resource from Tolkien himself that
Sindarin c/p/t are aspirated as in English cap/pop/top rather than as of Spanish
unaspirated c/p/t?

Thank you for any of your advice!

Benson Kochou Fang

Hello,

From Appendix E of LOTR:
"C always have the value of 'k' even before e and i".

The Appendix doesn't specifically list 'p' or 't', but I've never heard of them
not being aspirated.  I'm sure someone else has a citation in that regard. ^_^

Ruth Mayes

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "michiru_benson" <michiru_benson@...> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I would like to know if there is any hint or resource from Tolkien himself
that Sindarin c/p/t are aspirated as in English cap/pop/top rather than as of
Spanish
> unaspirated c/p/t?
>
> Thank you for any of your advice!
>
> Benson Kochou Fang
>

Hi Ruth,

Thank you for your reply!

Sorry but here I actually refer to the different values between voiceless
aspirated stops as 'C' in English "cot" and non-aspirated as 'C' in English
"Scot".

We at least know some aspirated stops in Tolkien's languages, like 'kh' and 'th'
in Khuzdul (not as German ach-Laut and TH as in English "thin") and Primitive
Elvish which we have 'ph', 'th', 'kh'. And I remember someone in Elfling
mentioning that Sindarin 'C/P/T' should be voiceless non-aspirated stops as in
Spanish, but I could not find any hint about this statement from Tolkien-related
materials on my hand.

I have to admit personally I expect the aspiration should dominate in Sindarin
pronunciation of voiceless stops /t/, /k/, /p/, just like Welsh and other
contemporary Celtic languages, based on which Tolkien invented Sindarin.

Benson Kochou Fang

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "coegwendeth" <oselleruth@...> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> From Appendix E of LOTR:
> "C always have the value of 'k' even before e and i".
>
> The Appendix doesn't specifically list 'p' or 't', but I've never heard of
them not being aspirated.  I'm sure someone else has a citation in that regard.
^_^
>
> Ruth Mayes
>
> --- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "michiru_benson" <michiru_benson@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I would like to know if there is any hint or resource from Tolkien himself
that Sindarin c/p/t are aspirated as in English cap/pop/top rather than as of
Spanish
> > unaspirated c/p/t?
> >
> > Thank you for any of your advice!
> >
> > Benson Kochou Fang
> >
>

Thank you for the reply.  I'm sorry to be so late in responding - real life
keeps getting in the way!

I contacted the organisers about the "Elvish" merchandise soon after I posted,
and they decided to withdraw it altogether.  This explains why you could only
see English and Welsh merchandise.  I believe they were offered a possibl
Sindarin translation, but up until now they must have decided not to offer other
languages.


--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "tuilinde42" <tuilinde@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Claire,
>
> I've known about the Festival for some time, but not looked at the website. 
I've now done so, and could see no Elvish in the Logo - are you sure what you're
looking at isn't actually Welsh?  That's what it looks like to me - after all,
the event is happening in Wales, (which is hardly the Shire!!! But that's
another beef!)
>
> If you want to offer them an Elven logo the one I came up with is
>
> _I Vereth vin Thrann_. Or, _Bereth vin Thrann_  In Etymologies it explains
that Noldorin Mereth was later changed to Bereth (although the Mereth in the
text was not changed).  It seems there is no Sindarin word for _festival_ , and,
understandably no Quenya word for _Shire_  So whatever is offered is a bit of a
cobbled together thing.
>
> See if you can find out about the Welsh.
>
> I hope that is some help,
>
> Tuilinde
>
> --- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "claire.richards40" <claire.richards40@>
wrote:
> >
> > There is an event planned for August 2010 called "Festival in the Shire - A
celebration of all things Tolkien inspired".  It has merchandise for sale on the
Cafe Press website and the so-called "Elvish" logo is horrendous - it appears to
be a form of 'pig Latin', i.e. a mangled version of the English.
> >
> > I am going to point this out to the organisers, but wondered whether there
was an acceptable translation I could suggest instead.
> >
> > I have got as far as "Mereth vi Drann", which I'm not sure is correct
anyway, but then got stuck.
> >
> > Would anyone be willing to help out with a suggestion?
> >
> > Claire
> >
>

You can listen to this recording and try to hear for yourself:
http://www.youtube.com/user/GlorendilElemire#p/u/1/MdfYy4gW9L4.
Unfortunately there are only two relevant examples: palan and penna, but they
both sound quite unaspirated to me, and certainly less aspirated than a typical
English p in stressed syllables. But the quality isn't great, and aspiration
isn't distinctive in my native tongue, so I'm not overtly sensitive to it.

Indirect clues, however, can be found through Khuzdul.
If kibil is indeed a borrowing from Sindarin celeb (and as Fauskanger points
out, it must be relatively late), it would imply that the Sindarin /k/ was
indeed unaspirated (or at least not aspirated enough for the dwarves).
There are also borrowings from Khuzdul to Sindarin: Kh. Khaz�d > S. Hadhod and
Kh. Kheled > S heledh. The later shows shift of Kh. d to S. dh, so it hardly
helps (it could have been borrowed when Sindarin actually had a distinct,
aspirated kh), but the later, hadhod seems to have entered Sindarin quite late.
If it isn't the result of dissimilation of *hadhodh, of course...

All things considered, we don't have much evidence, and it certainly isn't
conclusive, but plain voiceless ptk seem more plausible to me.

Boris

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "michiru_benson" <michiru_benson@...> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I would like to know if there is any hint or resource from Tolkien himself
that Sindarin c/p/t are aspirated as in English cap/pop/top rather than as of
Spanish
> unaspirated c/p/t?
>
> Thank you for any of your advice!
>
> Benson Kochou Fang
>

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "coegwendeth" <oselleruth@...> wrote:
> From Appendix E of LOTR:
> "C always have the value of 'k' even before e and i".
> The Appendix doesn't specifically list 'p' or 't', but I've never
> heard of them not being aspirated.  I'm sure someone else has a
> citation in that regard. ^_^

Well, I've never heard about them being aspirated... The reason Tolkien only
lists _c_ is because he wanted to prevent a pronounciation /s/ as in 'cinema',
he isn't talking about aspiration at that point.
But since he mentions that Khuzdul _kh_ and _th_ are aspirated and even uses _h_
to specifically mark it, it would mean that Sindarin and Quenya _p,t,k_ are
unaspirated.
See also the adaptation of _Khaz�d_ in Quendi & Eldar (notes 22, 24). Sindarin
approximated the aspirated _kh_ by the ach-Laut _ch_. If _c_ had been aspirated,
it would have been used instead.

RR.