The Third International Conference on J.R.R. Tolkien's Invented
Languages
'Omentielva Nelya'
6 - 9 August, 2009


* Change of venue

     Omentielva Nelya was previously announced to take place in
Cambridge, England. It has unfortunately proved impossible to
hold it there.
     Fortunately, however, the respected Elfling poster Tuilinde,
Susan Frances Edwards, was able to provide an alternative at
short notice, and made it possible for Omentielva Nelya to
instead be held in Whitehaven, England.

* Registration opens

     The full registration fee is 75 GBP, which includes the volume
of proceedings, as well as all meals and simple sleeping-space.
(For a smaller fee, £ 20, you may register as a non-attending
participant; in this way you support the conference and will get a
copy of the published proceedings.)
     Registration at this price will be open from now, and at least
until July 1. If we then cannot accept more participants, we will
announce it here. The registration fee may be raised after July 1.

     Omentielva's website at <www.omentielva.com> is about to be
updated with the new information, and more will be added by and by.
There is (or will be tomorrow) a registration page ("Next
conference", then "Registration") where you can register online.

	 Nam�rie tenn' Omentielva!

		 Beregond

For Omentielva Nelya we call for scholarly papers on all aspects of
any or all of Tolkien's invented languages, in any or all of their
conceptual stages.

The proceedings of the conference will be published in the third volume
of Arda Philology, to appear in 2010.

To propose a paper, send an abstract to Beregond, Anders Stenstr�m, the
Omentielva Secretary. Do not make the abstract too short; a couple of
hundred words will normally be needed (but it of course depends on the
complexity of your subject). You do not need to have your conclusions
all worked out in the proposal, but delineate how you intend to reach
them. Append a short presentation of yourself (four lines or less).
Specify which sources you will rely on, and whether you will discuss any
previous studies.

We expect the presentation of a paper to take 40 minutes. But we aim at
a single-thread programme, and so can accommodate papers of varying
length. Please specify how long you expect to speak, and any technical
equipment you need. Be prepared for questions and discussion at the end
of your presentation.

Copyright or similar considerations may apply. For publication, you have
to provide a copy of your paper in which all quotation is highlighted
and the source given.

Append a short presentation of yourself (four lines or less).

If you wish to submit a paper but can not attend the conference, you may
send a paper to be read and discussed. In the latter case, state any
directions or preferences you may have for the presentation.

========================================================
Information about Omentielva Nelya: <www.omentielva.com>

Sarmendili,

I have now added version 3 of the font Tengwar Eldamar to Amanye Tenceli (here:
http://at.mansbjorkman.net/tengwareldamar.htm). Among other things, this version
solves the problem of a-tehtar overlapping the nasal tehtar. A few new letters
have also been added.

Yours,
M�ns

Firstly, thank you all who replied to the original message. We've definitely
covered some ground, and I'm pretty sure that all of you have answered most
if not all of my questions. So thanks! "Hantal�! ar a n� alya!" (Thanks! and
be blessed!)

Let me just summarize all of this and compact it down so I can know that I
have it correctly:

*MUST:*
"Mauya nin auta" -> [it] compels for me to leave.
"Maurenen autuvan(y�)" -> [it is] by need [that] I will leave.
"Nany� maita, si� samin(y�) maur� mati�va" -> I am hungry, thus I have need
of eating.
(So the concept of "must" in English is translated as "having a need to" and
said that way in Quenya, right?)

*SHOULD:*
"Nauva m�ra lyen tul�" -> [it] would be good for you to come (you should
come)
"Caruval mai tuli�nen" -> You will do/make well by coming
(The idea of "should" is translated as "will be good" as in "It will be good
if you come" -> "You should come")
*
WOULD (future-tense):*
"Tulani�n(y�), er ..." -> I would come, but... (is this right? or would it
be "tuluvani�n(y�)?")
(The idea of future tense "would" in English is best described as a future
conditional -> "I would go if...")

*WOULD (future past-tense):
*"Tulleni�n(y�), er ..." -> I would have come, but... (Is this right?)

It seems like this is finally starting to make sense :)
Thank all of you who contributed to this!

On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 11:04 PM, Helge K. Fauskanger <
helge.fauskanger@...> wrote:

> Tyler Kocheran asked (and similar questions have re-emerged):
>
> >  are there Quenya words for "must," "would," and or "should?"
>
> >  The word "must" in English implies a need to, as in "I must go"
> translates into an idea of "I have/need to leave." In Quenya, would this
> be translated as "Saminy� maur� auta" -> "I have a need to leave"?
>
> I guess I�d say _mauya nin auta_ �(it) compels for me to leave� or
> _maurenen autuvan_ �(it is) by need (that) I will leave�, or even _samin
> maure auti�va_ �I have need of leaving�.
>
> >  As far as "would" and "should," I can't think of a way in Quenya to
> express these ideas. In the sentence "I would go," the word "would"
> implies that the speaker has the desire or is willing to go, but is
> prevented from doing so in some way. I don't know how "should," would be
> expressed either, perhaps as a reference to a moral/personal obligation
> to do something?
>
> I presented some ideas about �should� earlier; probably various
> circumlocutions with �good� or �well� can be used (�you should eat
> fruit� > _matie y�ve nauva m�ra lyen_ = �eating fruit will be good for
> you�; �you should come� > _caruval mai tuli�nen_ = �you will do well by
> coming�).
>
> As for �would�, I think the best available alternative is the
> future-past tense in _-umne_, as in _matumne_ �was going to eat�
> (VT48:32) and so maybe *�would eat�. Hence perhaps e.g. _tulumnen (mal
> nanye hampa)_, �I was going to come/would have come (but I am restrained)�.
>
> >  Have you published your pieces of your translated New Testament?
>
> Sure:
>
> http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/apantale.rtf
>
> The Index page on Ardalambion still says this is only the Revelation
> (Apantale!) of John, but actually the gospel and letters traditionally
> ascribed to the same apostle are now included. (Due to certain technical
> problems, it has been difficult for me to edit the index page lately.)
>
> To return to the question of �would�: one of the most challenging things
> to talk about in Neo-Quenya is wholly unreal situations, like �this
> would be true if some other condition had been met (but it was not).� An
> example from my Bible translations would be John 11:21, where we need to
> translate what Martha says to Jesus regarding the recently-diseased
> Lazarus: �Lord, if you had been here, my brother had not been (would not
> have been, would not be) dead.�
>
> I simply used _qui_ �if� + past tense verbs: _Heru, qui anel s�s,
> h�nonya �me qualin._ �Lord, if you were here (earlier), my brother was
> not dead (now).� This is obviously a provisional solution only, for we
> have no Tolkien examples to guide us. What we would want is a true
> subjunctive form of the verb.
>
> -HKF
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> --
> Manager address: elfling-owner@yahoogroups.com
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>
>
>


--
And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of
sleep;
for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The can't be Quenya because it has words that start with "g". Maybe it's
"Qenya?" Telerin has words with an initial "g." Sindarin does, too, but this
poem clearly isn't Sindarin. (Quenya lost its initial Gs at some point in
Tolkien's historical perception.)------------Herenvarno-----------------

Palatinus wrote:


  > I think Helge (aka Mr. Fauskanger) doesn't update his Quenya Course.

Actually Mr. Fauskanger (aka "me") has long been working on an update,
and I finally see the end of this work, but I can't upload a
half-finished (or even 95 % finished) revision -- or some parts of the
course would contradict other parts. Revising a book-length document of
this kind, where the later parts always build on what has already been
said, is anything but easy.

- HKF

Sarmendili!

We celebrate the tenth birthday of Amanye Tenceli with a description of Sarati
for Quenya (here: http://at.mansbjorkman.net/sarati_quenya.htm). As always, all
comments, suggestions and corrections are welcome and appreciated.

Yours,
M�ns

Aiya M�ns!
Thank you for your publications on Tengwar, they have helped us all in
learning the transcription and have proved to be invaluable! Happy tenth!

  - Tyler

On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Mans Bjorkman <at@...> wrote:

> Sarmendili!
>
> On April 3, my web site Amanye Tenceli (http://at.mansbjorkman.net/) turns
> ten. To celebrate this I will add various content to the web site over the
> next few days.
>
> Today I have added a description of Tengwar punctuation (here:
> http://at.mansbjorkman.net/teng_punctuation.htm). As always, all comments,
> suggestions and corrections are welcome and appreciated.
>
> In case anyone is interested, I have written a brief chronicle of the first
> decade of Amanye Tenceli (here: http://at.mansbjorkman.net/ten-years.htm).
>
> Yours,
>    M�ns
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> --
> Manager address: elfling-owner@yahoogroups.com
> Unsub address: elfling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Elfling welcome:
http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea/elfling.html<http://www.terracom.net/%7Edoroth\
ea/elfling.html>
> Elfling FAQ: http://nellardo.com/lang/elf/faq.htmlYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


--
And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of
sleep;
for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mellyn!

     The production of _Arda Philology_ 2, the proceedings of the
second Omentielva conference, held in Antwerp in 2007, has been
interrupted by other concerns for some months. It will, however,
soon be continued, and the volume will appear in time for
Omentielva Nelya, if not sooner.

	 Suilad,

		 Beregond

Hey all, it's been a while since my last post, so I apologize for this being so
long, but I was wondering how you would tell the difference between Active
Participle and Perfective Active Participle?

Some other things I needed help with are the following I found in David Salo's
book and I wanted to get some advice as to how to put them into effect when
translating or freewriting a piece of work:

Basic: VSO or VS for intransitive sentences
When the subject or object moves to topic position, the word order is SVO for
subject and OVS for the object.

When the object of a verb is a pronoun (not a noun phrase), it normally precedes
the verb to make the OVS word order. The Verb sometimes also moves, making the
VOS order, and the subject makes the SOV order.

If there's an infinitive governed by the verb then it makes the normal (VSO)
order (VSIO), the verb is also single with an adjective making the VS order.
(e.g. no aer "be holy")

Transitives with first or second person pronouns may omit pronoun and make a VO
sentence. Intransitives make the V or OV with pronominal objects.

Noun-prepositional phrases have the object then the to or for us actions. (OVS)

Noun phrases usually don't have verbs (to be is implied).

All I really want to know is when and how to use these, and I apologize again
for it being so long. Any help would be appreciated.

Hi all, I have a question since several years.

I have the book "Introduction to Elvish", which is a composition of articles by
various authors, edited by Jim Allan.

Mr. Allan's only real-world text is the foreword where he describes Tolkien's
linguistic studies and the clubs and societies, as well as fanzines created for
them

Apart from this, I never heard anything else about Mr. Allan out of the context
of the book. All I can infer from the foreword is that he was very active in
that field, and perhaps he hailed from Toronto.

The only other time I heard about him, had been a text titled "Report from
Marquette" but I never saw the original text.

My question is simple: Who is Mr. Jim Allan? Why *I* haven't heard about him
other than these two contexts? Is he still around? Does he have an online
presence?

Any information will be appreciated.




___________________________________________________________
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���������� �� ���������� �������� (spam); �� Yahoo! Mail
�������� ��� �������� ������ ��������� ���� ��� �����������
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After making an initial attempt to post to this list requesting some
starting points, and the subsequent moderation bounce, I managed to
develop some baseline suggestions and help from some other lists so
there is at least a useful starting point.

The lists that were helpful were: merp@..., endor@googlegroups.com,
tolklang@..., and  tolkien_list@googlegroups.com.  I list these
resources just as suggested resources for other Tolkien
linguistic "newbs" (such as myself) who might also run into
this "chicken and the egg" situation as well.

So, here are several suggestions, and I was hoping for some additional
vetting from this learned group if folks would be so kind.

I am attempting to translate "Inland Empire" or some variant thereof.
This is a geographic reference here in the Inland Northwest of the
United States. Includes typically Eastern Washington, Northern Idaho,
and also sometimes also Western Montana, Eastern Oregon, and even the
southern portions of Eastern British Columbia and western Alberta
Canada. For the purpose of this translation effort, it is mostly
focused on Eastern Washington and Northern Idaho in forming a TS smial
serving this area. This areas is "lumped together" based on geography,
climate, economics, and culture. Not because of any
political/governmental links per se.
An alternative would just be "Inland Northwest", though that seems less
colorful than "Inland Empire", but if that assists in a better working
and sounding interpretation it will be sufficient. ;-)
Languages of interest include Sindarin, Quenya, Adunaic, or Khuzdul.

Here are some suggestions proposed so far (many thanks to Beregond,
Morgan, Graney, Elena, and others):

* Ardhonalf (S. "Land of the Great Realm")
* Gabilg�n (Kh. "Great Country")
* Ararth�ni (Ad. "Land of the King")
* Mittalmarani� (Q. "Inland Kingdom")
* Mittalmarda ("_Mittal-_ appears to be a prefix meaning "between."
_Marda_ is a whole word glossed "dwelling" (related to _mar-_ (verb) to
dwell)...._arani�_; the other synonyms mentioned are formed from
attested words and suffixes, but they appear to have been abandoned by
Tolkien in favor of _arani�_..... another way of expressing "emperor":
_Tararan_, high king (Tar+aran). High King in English implies the
senior among a group of kings. Likewise, emperors may rule over lesser
kings. The Holy Roman Emperor ruled over a slew of regional monarchs,
for example. Then we could have _tararani�_ "empire." Hence we would
have _N�ryorna Tararani�_. It's possible, though that _arani�_ can only
be used as an abstract (so kingdom in the sense of "reign") and not as
a concrete noun. _-i�_ is, after all, a suffix for forming abstracts.
Perhaps _Tararand�r�_ with short form _Tararandor_ then? I
  still suggest _tararani�_. Sometimes constructions that were abstract
originally have drifted to become concrete in Quenya, and I think
_tararani�_ is a safer neologism than _tararandor_. ")
("etymology of _Mittalmar_, the Inlands of N�menor, is presumably
something like 'inside expanses'. _Mittalmarda_ is meant as a singular
_mittalma_ 'an inland' + _arda_.")

Thank you in advance for any kind suggestions.
Cheers!
-Hawke

Hi,

Jim Allan used to (several years ago) post at the
http://forum.barrowdowns.com/ and http://www.thetolkienforum.com/.  .  I got
to know him slightly years ago when we were both working on a revised
Silmarillion, but haven't heard from him for a long time.  As far as I'm aware,
there are no other publications by him, which is a shame as he is a very
perceptive and thorough guy.

- Aiwendil


-----Original Message-----
From: Palatinus <elfiness@...>
To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 11:17 am
Subject: [elfling] Jim Allan?




i all, I have a question since several years.
I have the book "Introduction to Elvish", which is a composition of articles by
arious authors, edited by Jim Allan.
Mr. Allan's only real-world text is the foreword where he describes Tolkien's
inguistic studies and the clubs and societies, as well as fanzines created for
hem
Apart from this, I never heard anything else about Mr. Allan out of the context
f the book. All I can infer from the foreword is that he was very active in
hat field, and perhaps he hailed from Toronto.
The only other time I heard about him, had been a text titled "Report from
arquette" but I never saw the original text.
My question is simple: Who is Mr. Jim Allan? Why *I* haven't heard about him
ther than these two contexts? Is he still around? Does he have an online
resence?
Any information will be appreciated.


__________________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

An active participle is a verbal adjective in present tense. This corresponds to
a verb with the english ending -ing (but gerunds also take this ending). An
example of an active participle is "seeing" in this sentence:
"Seeing the avalanche, he ran as fast as he could in the other direction." This
sort of participle expresses an action in progress; we could rephrase this
sentence so that it started "while seeing the avalanche..." and the meaning
would remain the same. So apparently the man in question is looking over his
shoulder while running.

To express the meaning that a Sindarin  perfective active participle has,
English uses having + past participle. Consider the example, "having seen the
avalanche, he ran as fast as he could in the other direction." This sort of
participle signifies completed action, so that we could rephrase this sentence
so that it started with "after seeing..." and it would mean basicaly the same
thing. So now the man probably isn't looking at the avalanche; he's just running
like mad. The difference here is that Sindarin expresses having + past
participle in one word.

You probably didn't need quite that much explanation, but I like to be
completely unambiguous. Hope this helps.-----------Hernvarno------


--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "elffanatic2000" <elffanatic2000@...> wrote:
>
> Hey all, it's been a while since my last post, so I apologize for this being
so long, but I was wondering how you would tell the difference between Active
Participle and Perfective Active Participle?
>
> Some other things I needed help with are the following I found in David Salo's
book and I wanted to get some advice as to how to put them into effect when
translating or freewriting a piece of work:
>
> Basic: VSO or VS for intransitive sentences
> When the subject or object moves to topic position, the word order is SVO for
subject and OVS for the object.
>
> When the object of a verb is a pronoun (not a noun phrase), it normally
precedes the verb to make the OVS word order. The Verb sometimes also moves,
making the VOS order, and the subject makes the SOV order.
>
> If there's an infinitive governed by the verb then it makes the normal (VSO)
order (VSIO), the verb is also single with an adjective making the VS order.
(e.g. no aer "be holy")
>
> Transitives with first or second person pronouns may omit pronoun and make a
VO sentence. Intransitives make the V or OV with pronominal objects.
>
> Noun-prepositional phrases have the object then the to or for us actions.
(OVS)
>
> Noun phrases usually don't have verbs (to be is implied).
>
> All I really want to know is when and how to use these, and I apologize again
for it being so long. Any help would be appreciated.
>

Aiya, meldonyar!
Are there Quenya words for the days of the week, eg: Sunday, Monday,
Tuesday, Wednesday, etc? I am as of yet unable to find any online.

Hantal�!
  - Tailer

--
And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of
sleep;
for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi,

Have a look at Appendix D of Return of the King




________________________________
From: Tyler Kocheran <rfkrocktk@...>
To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2009 10:23:40 PM
Subject: [elfling] Quenya: Days of Week?





Aiya, meldonyar!
Are there Quenya words for the days of the week, eg: Sunday, Monday,
Tuesday, Wednesday, etc? I am as of yet unable to find any online.

Hantalë!
- Tailer

--
And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of
sleep;
for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






___________________________________________________________
Χρησιμοποιείτε Yahoo!;
Βαρεθήκατε τα ενοχλητικά μηνύματα (spam); Το
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ae!
--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Tyler Kocheran <rfkrocktk@...> wrote:
>
> Are there Quenya words for the days of the week, eg: Sunday, Monday,
> Tuesday, Wednesday, etc? I am as of yet unable to find any online.
>

One can find Elenya, Anarya, Isilya, Ald�a, Menelya, E�renya & Valanya or T�rion
as the Q. names corresponding to tr. Hobbitish Sterday, Sunday, Monday,
Trewsday, He(ve)nsday, Mersday & Hiday, and thus as possibly equivalents of En.
Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday & Friday, in App D second
part, 'The Calendars'.

Suilaid, Mithrennaith

Both the Quenya and Sindarin forms for the the days of the week are found in
Appendix D of LoTR. But in case you don't have access to it, they are given here
with Quenya followed by Sindarin:
�
Saturday: Elenya - Orgilion [Star-day]
Sunday: Anarya - Oranor [Sun-day]
Monday: Isilya - Orithil [Moon-day]
Tuesday: Ald�ya - Orgaladhad [Two Trees-day] -- the N�men�reans changed this to
Ald�a - Orgaladh. [Tree-day in reference to the White Tree only, because
Nimloth, believed to be descended from Telperion, grew in the King's Court in
N�menor]
Wednesday: Menelya - Ormenel [Heaven's-day]
Thursday: E�renya - Oraearaon [Sea-day; this day was added by the N�men�reans]
Friday: Valanya (or T�rion) - Orbelain (or Rodyn) [Valar's-day; this was the
High Day of the week]
�
I hope this helps.
�
Arthur



"What part of 'You're dead' don't you understand? ~ N�mo to an Unidentified
Elven F�a giving the Lord of Mandos grief




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There are Quenya Days of the week in Appendix D of Lord of the Rings. Eldarin
weeks were six days, though, so there aren't direct equivalents to English days
of the
week.---Herenvarno--------------------------------------------------------------\
---

J Graney wrote:


  > amborir v they abode. The stem �bar-� is from MBAR, so with prefixion
of �a� the cluster �mb� likely remains. Right....? If not, it should be
avorir.

Intervocalic _mb_ would be expected to come out as _m_, as when the
cognate of Quenya _ambar_ "world" is _amar_. On the other hand, in
PE17:131 Tolkien surprisingly gives the past tense of "slay" as
_adhanc_, though the root is normally given as NDAK and we would expect
intervocalic _nd_ to come out as _n_ rather than _dh_ (*a-ndank- > S
*ananc). Is a shorter root DAK here presupposed? (*A-dank- > regularly
_adhanc_). But we do have other seemingly "irregular" developments where
the products of intervocalic ND, NG, MB may seem to behave like simple
D, G, B even in lenition position. In the sentence _penim vast_ "we lack
bread" (PE17:144) the word _mast_ "bread" is lenited as object. But
since the root is supposed to be MBAS rather than *MAS, we would have
expected *_penim mast_ instead.

There is also the name of the mountain _Fanuidhol_ "White Head", though
according to the Etymologies at least, the word _d�l_ "head" or "hill"
comes from a root NDOL. If so, we might have expected *_Fanuinol_ as the
name of the mountain.

Is the idea that analogical leveling had gone far in late Sindarin, so
that _b, d, g_ increasingly tended to undergo the same mutations
regardless of origin? If so you could indeed defend *_avorir_ rather
than *_amorir_ for "they abode", even though the root is MBAR.

- HKF

P.S. Your Babel translation as a whole seems quite good, made with
genuine insight on the general system. If you want a detailed
discussion, I would however suggest that you post a couple of verses at
a time.

On 2009-04-14 Helge K. Fauskanger wrote:
> There is also the name of the mountain _Fanuidhol_ "White
>  Head", though according to the Etymologies at least, the
> word _d�l_ "head" or "hill" comes from a root NDOL. If
> so, we might have expected *_Fanuinol_ as the name of the
> mountain.

This may be a case of remote dissimilation between
the two n's in _*Fanuinol*_, though the 'regular'
lenition pattern would probably have been an
encouraging factor in establishing such a
dissimilation.

> Is the idea that analogical leveling had gone far in late
>  Sindarin, so that _b, d, g_ increasingly tended to
> undergo the same mutations regardless of origin? If so
> you could indeed defend *_avorir_ rather than *_amorir_
> for "they abode", even though the root is MBAR.

Intra-poetically this would not at all be unlikely
given the situation in Gondor where most speakers
and writers of Sindarin had Westron as their first
language.

BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch atte melroch dotte se
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
                  A h-ammen ledin i phith!                \ \
       __  ____ ____    _____________ ____ __   __ __     / /
       \ \/___ \\__ \  /___  _____/\ \\__ \\ \  \ \\ \   / /
       / /   / /  /  \    / /Melroch\ \_/ // /  / // /  / /
      / /___/ /_ / /\ \  / /Roccondil\_  // /__/ // /__/ /
     /_________//_/  \_\/ /Eowine __  / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
    ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
|| Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||

A few days ago, I began with the study of Sindarin (as complete as
it can be in these days). I found Thorsten Renk's “course” and,
of course, I looked at Fauskanger's articles on his web Ardalambion.
I must say that this language “captured” me since I saw its
attractive grammar (I’m seeing mutations everywhere!) and I heard
its beautiful sound (although I think my pronunciation isn’t as
that of Thingol neither Elrond).

	  Nonetheless, after seeing some examples of texts not coming from
Tolkien, I couldn’t avoid to notice something: in occasions, a
similar structure to that of English is given to Sindarin. It’s
certain that I don’t have as many knowledge as Salo, Fauskanger or
Renk, but I think this cannot be made so easily.

	  I will reproduce a fragment of a text which can be found in
Renk’s course “Pedin Edhellen”, at page 44 (although I don’t
have his permission to do it): _penim dûr_, what he translates as
_we lack strength_. My doubt comes when I translate this sentence to
Spanish (my native language): _nos falta fuerza_. Those of you who
know some Spanish grammar would see that my language needs an object
pronoun (“nos”, English = “us”) to express what English does
with a personal pronoun (“we”, Spanish = “nosotros”). So, if
I was to translate the same idea, I think the result would be: _pên
ven dûr_ (or possibly _ven pên dûr_, I don’t know if the order
is important). So, which would be the correct translation of: “we
lack strength”?

	  I think the problem is on the translation between English and
Spanish. I mean, sometimes an English phrase require some “added”
when translated into Spanish: “he sat” (Spanish: “él se
sentó”).

	  Since I’m talking about Sindarin, I want to show you some doubts:


	  Renk also translates the phrase _I want the men to enter_ as
_Aníron i venn minnad_, but (again) my language doesn’t need to
use an infinitive: _Quiero que el hombre entre_. To avoid this, I
would have used _I want to see the man_ instead (_Quiero ver al
hombre_).

	  I have also some doubts with the use of _nan_. Doesn’t it denote:
“at/to/toward the”. So why Renk translates _to the plains_ as _na
i thelaith_? Perhaps because this particle it’s followed by mixed
mutation and he doesn’t want to show examples of those changes
until lesson 12? Or maybe because he want to show the nasal mutation
before the definite article _in_? Another strange example to me is to
translate _at the borders_ as _na ’laind_, when I was expecting the
use of _nan_.

	  Sindarin questions can be constructed by simply adding the sign:
should _Am I a human?_ be translated as _Im Dúnadan?_.

	  I also want to know if the possessives should be written as _nín_,
_lín_ or _nîn_, _lîn_.

	  Well, all isn’t doubts and “critics” (if Renk read this
message, he should know that I’m very impressed with his work and
his determination of reconstructing the language). I would like to
thank all the work done by people like Fauskanger, Renk and Salo
(among others, I only listed here the names of those who I’m
familiar with). In fact, the reading of their articles has made me to
be interested in the languages (not only those of Arda). That’s a
little strange, given the fact that my work field is Math and
Computer Science.

	  I’ll be waiting for answers.

	  Yours truly, Camilo.
-------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@...>
wrote:
>
> In the sentence _penim vast_ "we lack
> bread" (PE17:144) the word _mast_ "bread" is lenited as object. But
> since the root is supposed to be MBAS rather than *MAS, we would have
> expected *_penim mast_ instead.

Would we expect *_penim mast_? I mean, lenition occurs whenever an
initial combination becomes medial which is the case in compounds and
after the article, but in this construction it is used as a grammatical
device and I guess it's a late introduction after the loss of case
endings. So _penim vast_ could be just the right historical form beside
_i m(b)as(t)_.

RR.

Roman Rausch skrev:
> --- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@...>
wrote:
>> In the sentence _penim vast_ "we lack
>> bread" (PE17:144) the word _mast_ "bread" is lenited as object. But
>> since the root is supposed to be MBAS rather than *MAS, we would have
>> expected *_penim mast_ instead.
>
> Would we expect *_penim mast_? I mean, lenition occurs whenever an
> initial combination becomes medial which is the case in compounds and
> after the article, but in this construction it is used as a grammatical
> device and I guess it's a late introduction after the loss of case
> endings. So _penim vast_ could be just the right historical form beside
> _i m(b)as(t)_.
>
> RR.

Do you have anything to back up the suggestion of a pattern
with 'prenasal mutation' in definite forms and soft mutation
in objects, except this one example?

I'm absolutely not saying you are wrong -- I think you may
be right, but hope for more than a hapax of evidence! :-)

BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch atte melroch dotte se
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
                  A h-ammen ledin i phith!                \ \
       __  ____ ____    _____________ ____ __   __ __     / /
       \ \/___ \\__ \  /___  _____/\ \\__ \\ \  \ \\ \   / /
       / /   / /  /  \    / /Melroch\ \_/ // /  / // /  / /
      / /___/ /_ / /\ \  / /Roccondil\_  // /__/ // /__/ /
     /_________//_/  \_\/ /Eowine __  / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
    ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
|| Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||

Hi,



> 	 Nonetheless, after seeing some examples of texts not coming from
> Tolkien, I couldn’t avoid to notice something: in occasions, a
> similar structure to that of English is given to Sindarin. It’s
> certain that I don’t have as many knowledge as Salo, Fauskanger or
> Renk, but I think this cannot be made so easily.

This does sometimes happen. It would be somewhat unnatural in my texts (as
I am a native German speaker) and a similar thing can be said for Helge
(as he is, I guess, a native Norwegian), so we may unconsciously 'borrow'
constructions from our own languages. However, we do have some familiarity
with Tolkien's idiomatic expressions in Elvish and try to stay close to
them wherever we have guidance. I'll illustrate this in the following with
your examples.


> 	 I will reproduce a fragment of a text which can be found in
> Renk’s course “Pedin Edhellen”, at page 44 (although I don’t
> have his permission to do it):

Actually, you do - it says so in the copyright note, and fair use backs
you up anyway if you cite a small fragment.

> _penim dûr_, what he translates as
> _we lack strength_. My doubt comes when I translate this sentence to
> Spanish (my native language): _nos falta fuerza_. Those of you who
> know some Spanish grammar would see that my language needs an object
> pronoun (“nos”, English = “us”) to express what English does
> with a personal pronoun (“we”, Spanish = “nosotros”). So, if
> I was to translate the same idea, I think the result would be: _pên
> ven dûr_ (or possibly _ven pên dûr_, I don’t know if the order
> is important). So, which would be the correct translation of: “we
> lack strength”?

The one done by myself, as we have the Tolkien-made example _penim vast_
'we have no bread' (PE17:144) - my phrase uses Tolkien's phrase directly
as template.


> 	 Renk also translates the phrase _I want the men to enter_ as
> _Aníron i venn minnad_, but (again) my language doesn’t need to
> use an infinitive: _Quiero que el hombre entre_. To avoid this, I
> would have used _I want to see the man_ instead (_Quiero ver al
> hombre_).

Again, Tolkien does use the gerund in  _Ar e aníra ennas suilannad mhellyn
în phain_ 'And he desires to greet there all his friends.' (SD:126ff)


> 	 I have also some doubts with the use of _nan_. Doesn’t it denote:
> “at/to/toward the”. So why Renk translates _to the plains_ as _na
> i thelaith_?Perhaps because this particle it’s followed by mixed
> mutation and he doesn’t want to show examples of those changes
> until lesson 12? Or maybe because he want to show the nasal mutation
> before the definite article _in_?

Both of these, actually. The relevant question however, as contracted
prepositions are frequently attested, is: Is is *permissible* to use an
uncontracted _na in_ instead of _nan_ or is this simply wrong? A partial
answer lies in the observation that _an + i_ can be contracted as in
_Aglar'ni Pheriannath!_ (LOTR), but _dan + i_ obviously doesn't have to
be, as evident from _Naur dan i ngaurhoth!_. So my conclusion was that it
may be permissible, and since it had obvious advantages in presentation, I
decided to use it.

> Another strange example to me is to
> translate _at the borders_ as _na ’laind_, when I was expecting the
> use of _nan_.

You'll be able to find many more translations which are not done
literally. In fact, the English texts are sometimes rather quite free
translations. So you should not expect 1:1 matches.

> 	 Sindarin questions can be constructed by simply adding the sign:
> should _Am I a human?_ be translated as _Im Dúnadan?_.

I certainly don't know, and if anyone does, please let me know, I'd be
happy to do it correctly. Currently, this is a guess.


>  I also want to know if the possessives should be written as _nín_,
> _lín_ or _nîn_, _lîn_.

It's a moot question in some sense, if you write in Tengwar they come out
the same. Tolkien also used both versions (perhaps more worrisome, he used
_lín_ and _lin_ as variants in the same text, leaving us to ponder if it
is simply a typo or if there is some shortening rule at work).

> Well, all isn’t doubts and “critics” (if Renk read this
> message, he should know that I’m very impressed with his work and
> his determination of reconstructing the language).

Well, actually, at this point I rather lack the determination to
reconstruct Sindarin. I am quite happy that thanks to PE17 I was able to
weed out a lot of the conjectured forms in Pedin Edhellen, and I am
working hard to link my usage of Elvish to idioms seen in Tolkien's usage
of the language. So at this point, my determination with the course is
more to 'lure' people into looking at the originals and appreciate the
complexity of the grammar and its changes being played out than to deliver
a useful language. Which is why I wrote also a lot of technical stuff on
grammar...

Cheers,

* Thorsten

ah, I forgot to lenit that ..

_m� b�n d�r_

-l

On 15-Apr-09, at 6:13 PM, Maike wrote:

>
> _m� p�n d�r_ (cf. Pedin Edhellen, example on p. 23)
>
>
> garo h�dh
> - l

Suilad Camilio!

as for the translation of "we lack strength" - I am not certain if I
understand your point completely.
I have understood that in most cases, Sindarin does not *need* to use a
pronoun (examples from Pedin Edhellen as well):

_linnon_ "I sing"

unless it is to use the personless / empathic form

_im linna_ "it is *I* who sings"

I know of one other case in which a form that at least resembles a bare stem
is used:in the archaic negation construction

_uig dir_ "you do not watch"

where the the ú acts as a verb.

I have not come across a construction like _pên ven dûr_ as yet. If I were
to translate an empathic version of "*we* lack strength" (as opposed to
"*they* lack strength") I'd think it could be

_mí pên dûr_ (cf. Pedin Edhellen, example on p. 23)


garo hîdh
- l

2009/4/15 Camilo Bravo Valdes <melkor@...>

>   I will reproduce a fragment of a text which can be found in
> Renk’s course “Pedin Edhellen”, at page 44 (although I don’t
> have his permission to do it): _penim dûr_, what he translates as
> _we lack strength_. My doubt comes when I translate this sentence to
> Spanish (my native language): _nos falta fuerza_. Those of you who
> know some Spanish grammar would see that my language needs an object
> pronoun (“nos”, English = “us”) to express what English does
> with a personal pronoun (“we”, Spanish = “nosotros”). So, if
> I was to translate the same idea, I think the result would be: _pên
> ven dûr_ (or possibly _ven pên dûr_, I don’t know if the order
> is important). So, which would be the correct translation of: “we
> lack strength”?
>
> I think the problem is on the translation between English and
> Spanish. I mean, sometimes an English phrase require some “added”
> when translated into Spanish: “he sat” (Spanish: “él se
> sentó”).
>
> Since I’m talking about Sindarin, I want to show you some doubts:
>
> Renk also translates the phrase _I want the men to enter_ as
> _Aníron i venn minnad_, but (again) my language doesn’t need to
> use an infinitive: _Quiero que el hombre entre_. To avoid this, I
> would have used _I want to see the man_ instead (_Quiero ver al
> hombre_).
>
> I have also some doubts with the use of _nan_. Doesn’t it denote:
> “at/to/toward the”. So why Renk translates _to the plains_ as _na
> i thelaith_? Perhaps because this particle it’s followed by mixed
> mutation and he doesn’t want to show examples of those changes
> until lesson 12? Or maybe because he want to show the nasal mutation
> before the definite article _in_? Another strange example to me is to
> translate _at the borders_ as _na ’laind_, when I was expecting the
> use of _nan_.
>
> Sindarin questions can be constructed by simply adding the sign:
> should _Am I a human?_ be translated as _Im Dúnadan?_.
>
> I also want to know if the possessives should be written as _nín_,
> _lín_ or _nîn_, _lîn_.
>
> Well, all isn’t doubts and “critics” (if Renk read this
> message, he should know that I’m very impressed with his work and
> his determination of reconstructing the language). I would like to
> thank all the work done by people like Fauskanger, Renk and Salo
> (among others, I only listed here the names of those who I’m
> familiar with). In fact, the reading of their articles has made me to
> be interested in the languages (not only those of Arda). That’s a
> little strange, given the fact that my work field is Math and
> Computer Science.
>
> I’ll be waiting for answers.
>
> Yours truly, Camilo.
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Renk also translates the phrase _I want the men to enter_ as
_Aníron i venn minnad_, but (again) my language doesn’t need to
use an infinitive: _Quiero que el hombre entre_. To avoid this, I
would have used _I want to see the man_ instead (_Quiero ver al
hombre_).

Infinitive can be "translated" with a plain infinitive or a "that" construction.
In Quenya, we know both infinitives and also how to construct "that" but AFAIK
Tolkien didn't leave a syntax rule about how when and why each is formed. In
Sindarin, we don't know for sure how to make a "that" sentence (perhaps by using
_i_) but infinitive is more certain

> Sindarin questions can be constructed by simply adding the sign:
should _Am I a human?_ be translated as _Im Dúnadan?_.

We don't know

> I also want to know if the possessives should be written as _nín_,
_lín_ or _nîn_, _lîn_.

The circumflex denoted an extra long vowel that occurs in monosyllabic words.
Tengwar writing does not indicate this variety (all long vowels are noted as
"long", and the other details are in the speaker's knowledge). It's OK to write
these words with a simple accent, since the rule is clear that in these cases
the vowel is pronounced extra long. Tolkien however used the circumflex to make
it clear



___________________________________________________________
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One must remember that in respect to actual practice, these weekdays do not
exactly correspond to their English equivalents. _Valanya_ or _Highday_, though
translated "Friday", was the chief day and holiday, thus similar to Sunday.
(Appendix D) Using this scheme, I have personally rendered Finnish _launtai_
"Friday" as Earenya "Mersday" (=Thursday) in my translation of a Finnish sauna
hymn
(http://www.haapajarvenseurakunta.fi/tyoalat_aikuiset_saunaillat_saunavirsi.php)\
.

- Petri

www.petritikka.com/elvish

On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 3:23 AM, Tyler Kocheran <rfkrocktk@...> wrote:
>
>
> Aiya, meldonyar!
> Are there Quenya words for the days of the week, eg: Sunday, Monday,
> Tuesday, Wednesday, etc? I am as of yet unable to find any online.
>
> Hantal�!
> - Tailer
>
> --

Why don't you check The Lord of the Rings, Appendix D?
__________________________________________________

Iwinti� i losse, si salque restannar entule,
     aldannarye i lasse...

Diffugere nives, redeunt iam gramina campis
     arboribusque comae...


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