[I apologize in advance for this lengthy post.]

A little while ago I posted a Sindarin Babel text. However, I did not include an
index of neologisms, and unfortunately many people had trouble reading my mind.
Therefore, I have appended an alphabetical list of neologisms to this revised
version. I have also taken into account in my revision more recent information
about the past tenses of Sindarin primary verbs. I'm not exactly sure about many
of the sound-changes from the present tense stem, especially the vowels.
  I'm also very shaky on mutations. Also, have I formed 1st person plural
commands correctly? I'm posting this for comments; I want to make this
  better.
Genesis 11:1-91.
  Ah i geven bant aw lam erui a bith imin*.I. And the whole Earth had a single
tongue with the same words.2. A marthant* ir evenir* e Thrûn i adanath ichirir*
dalath* vi Sinar, a amborir* ennas.II. And it happened while they came from the
East that men found a valley(/plane) in Shinar, and they dwelt there.3. A pennir
pen na ben eis, “Tolo, men caro dilair a dosta hain mhae;” ah iuthiannir
dilair* be hern a morchim be delarchim.III. And they said to each other, "Come,
let us make bricks and burn them well;" and they used bricks as stones and
bitumen as mortar.4. Pennir, “Tolo, men
  carasto ammen ost a mhindon sevel thelu dîn vi mhenel, a men caro eneth ammen,
egor natha gwinnen* men trî geven.”IV. They said, "Come, let us build for
ourselves a city having its tip in the sky, and let us make a name for
ourselves, or we will be scattered through the Earth.5. Ah Eru pembant* an
thirid* i ost ah i mhindon i adanath carastannir*,V. And God descended in order
to see the city and the tower that Men built,6. Ah Eru pent, “êl*, sain
gwaith erui, a sain bân savir lam erui, a si (na) i nad mhinui i cerir; si
únad* i merir ceri natha an hain úgeridrail*. VI. And God said, "Behold, they
are a single people, and they all have one tongue, and this is the first thing
that they do; now nothing that they want to do will be impossible for them.7.
Tolo, men pembado* a cerim rungen* laim hîn*, i ú-chenio pen i bith o phen
eis.VII. Come, let us descend and make their language confused, that one will
not understand the words of another.8.
  Ah Eru gwinnant hain o ennas trî i balath ceven a adharir carasto i ost.VIII.
And God scattered then from there throughout the face of the Earth and they
stopped building the city.9. An thaw*, pen anna han i eneth “Bavel,” an
ennas Eru agorent rungen laim ceven bant, a taw gwinnant hain trî geven.IX.
Therefore, it is given the name "Babel," for there God made their language
confused, and thence he scattered them throughout the Earth.
amborir v they abode. The stem “bar-” is from MBAR, so with prefixion of
“a” the cluster “mb” likely remains. Right....? If not, it should be
avorir.an thaw adv phr therefore, for this.carasta- v to build. Cognate with
Quenya “carasta-.”dalath n talath, plane, with prestanneth. the word used in
the Bible translates as “valley,”  but “plane” describes the actual
 geography of the area. dilair see telardelarchim see telarchimeis adj other.
Cognate with Quenya “exë.” For the sound changes, compare Q(u)enya
“Helkarakse” to “Noldorin” “Helcharaes,” under KARAK (amended to
KÁRAK)  in the etymologies.êl interjection behold! Cognate with Quenya
“ela;” Tolien also mentions a primitive form   ele. Related to Q elen, él
and S êl, all of which mean star.  evenir v they came. From “ben-.”gwinnen
vbl adj scattered, from gwinna-. compare Q winta->vinta-hir- v “to find.”
Sindarin cognate of Quenya
  “hir.”ichirir v 3rd person plural past tense of “hir” by the same
pattern as “agor-” from  “car-.” Note the “h” mutates in the middle
of the word.imen adj same. Element “im” + adjectival ending “-en.”
Compare Quenya “imya.”martha- v to happen. This would be the Sindarin form
of Quenya “marta-.” If the  words  are derived from MBAR or MBARAT, the
Sindarin form is “bartha-.”morchim n bitumen, which is a black, sticky
substance. “Mor” “black” + “him.”  “Him”  is    my guess at a
cognate for Quenya “himma,” which is a neologism for glue,  from root  
 KHIM. pen na ben eis n phr an attempt at a reciprocal phrase “to one
another” or “among  themselves.”pembant v [he] descended. This consists of
a prefixed element “pen-,” “down,” with the  final “n” changing to
“m” before the “b” of “bado,” “to go.” This is not really a 
primary verb since it has a prefix, so
  I have not conjugated it that way.rungen vbl adj confused.thirid vbl n
“seeing.” From “tir-.” The meaning “in order to X” is rendered as a
gerund in  dative in Quenya, so I used “an” + a gerund for this meaning in
Sindarin. “An” +  “tirid” yields “a thirid.”telar n Sindarin cognate
of Quenya “telar,” that is, “brick.”telarchim n mortar. “telar” +
“him” like “morchim.”únad n nothing. ú + nad..úgeridrail adj
impossible. ú “not” + cerid “doing” + rail “-able (added to
gerunds.).”





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think Helge (aka Mr. Fauskanger) doesn't update his Quenya Course. The
pronouns you provide here are the theoretical attempts made by some linguists
about 10 years ago, when the pronouns posed a serious gap in our knowledge. The
ponouns given in the Course were considered "logical" or "better solution" over
that gap




________________________________
From: "iroquen@..." <iroquen@...>
To: elfing elfing <elfling@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 4:30:38 AM
Subject: [elfling] pronouns



I learned Quenya through Mr. Fauskanger's course a while back, and since Mr..
Renk's includes more new material. Mr. Renk's course lists the pronouns like so:
Subject Singular Plural Dual
1. Person -nye (I) -lme / -mme (we) -lve, -ngwe (we)
2. Person (familiar) -tye (you) -lde,-lle (you) -ste (you)
2. Person (formal) -lye (thou) -lde, -lle (ye) -ste (ye)
3. Person (animate) -sse (he, she) -nte, -lte (they) -tte (they)
3. Person (neuter) -ssa (it) -nte, -lte (they) -tte (they)
A similar chart from Mr. Fauskanger's course would look like this:
Subject Singular Plural Dual
1. Person -nye (I) -lme / -mme (we) -lve (we), -ngwe (?)
2. Person (familiar) -tye (you) -lye
3. Person (formal) -lye (thou)
3. Person (animate/neuter) -rye (he/she/it) -nte (they)
[I now know -lte is equally acceptable. Note that these are the LONG forms.]
(I hope that is reasonably legible.)
None of Mr. Renk's forms are marked with an asterisk or are indicated to be
uncertain; so are the differences between these two systems due to the
publication of new information that Mr. Renk's course has taken into account, or
just representative of differences between both authors' conception of Quenya
grammar, OR both? If the latter is the case, please let me know which
differences result from which causes. I need to know which pronomial endings to
learn or relearn. Thank you.
------------ --------Herenvar no------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
--






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

So in dialogue, one would just inflect what is being said based on what's
going to happen, right? Like so:
"Lelyuvan, er..." -> I *would* go, but...
"Lelyuvan c�." -> I would go, maybe (perhaps?).
"Na, lelyuvany�." -> Yes, I will go.

If this is true, than this makes total sense to me. However, what would one
do to express this in perfect tense, ie "I would have gone?"
The best thing I can think of doing is maybe "breeding" the future and
perfect tenses to make something like "lely*uvanien*ye" (what a mouthful!),
but then again I am fairly certain there is a much better way to express
"would have *(verb)*." Thoughts? Again, the concept I'm looking to express
is "would have done" or "might have done." Hantal�!

On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 12:16 AM, Benct Philip Jonsson
<melroch@...>wrote:

> Somehow this didn't go through the first time round.
>
> On 2009-03-16 iroquen@... wrote:
> > Since we're on the theme of verbs that are, in English,
> > modal auxiliaries, I figured that I'd field a question
> > about which I've been wondering for some time. How does
> > one express "would" in Quenya? That is, how do you  form
> >  the conditional mood? (In English this is often
> > considered part of subjunctive.)
>
> According to VT 42:34 _nauva_ can be used to
> express "would be", and one may tentatively assume
> that the future generally can have an undertone of
> uncertainty.  NB that in Germanic languages
> generally _shall~should, will~would_ and their
> cognates are used to express senses of doubt,
> obligation and future and in the Scandinavian
> languages also conditional, and colloquially also
> subjunctive meanings, and in the Romance languages
> also the future and conditional are closely
> related historically.  The key to this is that the
> future, and these modalities have in common that
> they are used to express something that is not
> real -- the future being uncertain until it is not
> the future anymore.
>
> Thus the Ouenya future may tentatively be used in
> a general irrealis sense.  This of course opens up
> the can of worms which is the question whether
> _-uva_ can be added to the past tense stem to form
> a future-in-the-past.  Even if one doesn't want to
> be that bold the future seems at the moment to be
> our best bet for expressing 'would'.  It would at
> any rate not be any weirder than for Germanic
> languages to express a wide variety of uncertain
> modalities with the roots *skel- and *wel-, or for
> Latin phrases of infinitive plus the present and
> past tenses of 'have' to become the Romance future
> and conditional. Uncertainty is what they all have
> in common.
>
> /BP 8^)>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> --
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> Unsub address: elfling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Elfling welcome:
http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea/elfling.html<http://www.terracom.net/%7Edoroth\
ea/elfling.html>
> Elfling FAQ: http://nellardo.com/lang/elf/faq.htmlYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


--
And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of
sleep;
for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My Sindarin Babel text didn't display well on my computer. If the same is the
case on yours, and you would�a copy of it to comment on, just use the "reply to
sender button and I'll send you the
file.------------------Herenvarno-----------------------------------------------\
----------------------




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, J Graney <iroquen@...> wrote:
>
> My Sindarin Babel text didn't display well on my computer. If the same is the
case on yours, and you would�a copy of it to comment on, just use the "reply
to sender button and I'll send you the
file.------------------Herenvarno-----------------------------------------------\
----------------------

I got a mix of Chinese and Russian. Would you try again, please?

Ok, Take 2. This is plain text this time.
Genesis 11:1-9
1. Ah i geven bant aw lam erui a bith imin*.
I. And the whole Earth had a single tongue with the same words.
2. A marthant* ir evenir* e Thrûn i adanath ichirir* dalath* vi Sinar, a
amborir* ennas.
II. And it happened while they came from the East that men found a
valley(/plain) in Shinar, and they dwelt there.
3. A pennir pen na ben eis, “Tolo, men caro dilair a dosta hain mhae;” ah
iuthiannir dilair* be hern a morchim be delarchim.
III. And they said to each other, "Come, let us make bricks and burn them well;"
and they used bricks as stones and bitumen as mortar.
4. Pennir, “Tolo, men carasto ammen ost a mhindon sevel thelu dîn vi mhenel,
a men caro eneth ammen, egor natha gwinnen* men trî geven.”
IV. They said, "Come, let us build for ourselves a city having its tip in the
sky, and let us make a name for ourselves, or we will be scattered through the
Earth.
5. Ah Eru pembant* an thirid* i ost ah i mhindon i adanath carastannir*,
V. And God descended in order to see the city and the tower that Men built,
6. Ah Eru pent, “êl*, sain gwaith erui, a sain bân savir lam erui, a si (na)
i nad mhinui i cerir; si únad* i merir ceri natha an hain úgeridrail*.
VI. And God said, "Behold, they are a single people, and they all have one
tongue, and this is the first thing that they do; now nothing that they want to
do will be impossible for them.
7. Tolo, men pembado* a cerim rungen* laim hîn*, i ú-chenio pen i bith o phen
eis.
VII. Come, let us descend and make their language confused, that one will not
understand the words of another.
8. Ah Eru gwinnant hain o ennas trî i balath ceven a adharir carasto i ost.
VIII. And God scattered then from there throughout the face of the Earth and
they stopped building the city.
9. An thaw*, pen anna han i eneth “Bavel,” an ennas Eru agorent rungen laim
ceven bant, a taw gwinnant hain trî geven.
IX. Therefore, it is given the name "Babel," for there God made their language
confused, and thence he scattered them throughout the Earth.

amborir v they abode. The stem “bar-” is from MBAR, so with prefixion of
“a” the cluster “mb” likely remains. Right....? If not, it should be
avorir.

an thaw adv phr therefore, for this.

carasta- v to build. Cognate with Quenya “carasta-.”

dalath n talath, plain(/face), with prestanneth. the word used in the Bible
translates as “valley,” but “plain” describes the actual  geography of
the area.

dilair see telar

delarchim see telarchim

eis adj other. Cognate with Quenya “exë.” For the sound changes, compare
Q(u)enya “Helkarakse” to “Noldorin” “Helcharaes,” under KARAK
(amended to KÁRAK) in the etymologies.

êl interjection behold! Cognate with Quenya “ela;” Tolien also mentions a
primitive form   ele. Related to Q elen, él and S êl, all of which mean star.

evenir v they came. From “ben-.”

gwinnen vbl adj scattered, from gwinna-. compare Q winta->vinta-

hir- v “to find.” Sindarin cognate of Quenya “hir.”

ichirir v 3rd person plural past tense of “hir” by the same pattern as
“agor-” from
“car-.” Note the “h” mutates in the middle of the word.

imen adj same. Element “im” + adjectival ending “-en.” Compare Quenya
“imya.”

martha- v to happen. This would be the Sindarin form of Quenya “marta-.” If
the words are derived from MBAR or MBARAT, the Sindarin form is “bartha-.”

morchim n bitumen, which is a black, sticky substance. “Mor” “black” +
“him.”  “Him” is    my guess at a cognate for Quenya “himma,” which
is a neologism for glue, from root KHIM.
pen na ben eis n phr an attempt at a reciprocal phrase “to one another” or
“among themselves.”

pembant v [he] descended. This consists of a prefixed element “pen-,”
“down,” with the final “n” changing to “m” before the “b” of
“bado,” “to go.” This is not really a primary verb since it has a
prefix, so I have not conjugated it that way.

rungen vbl adj confused.

thirid vbl n “seeing.” From “tir-.” The meaning “in order to X” is
rendered as a gerund in dative in Quenya, so I used “an” + a gerund for this
meaning in Sindarin. “An” + “tirid” yields “a thirid..”

telar n Sindarin cognate of Quenya “telar,” that is, “brick.”

telarchim n mortar. “telar” + “him” like “morchim.”

únad n nothing. ú + nad.

úgeridrail adj impossible. ú “not” + cerid “doing” + rail “-able
(added to gerunds.).”

Sarmendili!

On April 3, my web site Amanye Tenceli (http://at.mansbjorkman.net/) turns ten.
To celebrate this I will add various content to the web site over the next few
days.

Today I have added a description of Tengwar punctuation (here:
http://at.mansbjorkman.net/teng_punctuation.htm). As always, all comments,
suggestions and corrections are welcome and appreciated.

In case anyone is interested, I have written a brief chronicle of the first
decade of Amanye Tenceli (here: http://at.mansbjorkman.net/ten-years.htm).

Yours,
     M�ns

Le suilannon,
I am only just learning Sindarin and Quenya, and came across this poem in
Quenya:

Ai lintulinda Lasselanta
Pilingeve suyer nalla ganta
Kuluvi ya karnevalinar
V'ematte singi Eldamar

Does anyone know what V'ematte, singi,Pilingeve, suyer, or ganta means?
The best I could do was the "lin" in Pilingeve is sing, and eve is
everlasting(?) The "gan" in ganta meens high, or noble, as well I think. Does
anyone have any suggestions for the other words, or where to find them?

Rim Hannaid!
Truffles-Koboi

It displayed well on my computer. I have already been notified that "ceven" and
"menel" should probably not be lenited per the example in the Ae
Adar.--Herenvarno-

v' ematte seems to be "ve ematte" that means "like ematte". I dont know what
ematte is but look in some dictionaries

pilingeve could be the possessive case of pilin(de) (not pilinge) which means
"arrow"

ganta is not a Quenya word since Quenya has no g- in the beginning of words.
Perhaps the guy attempted to derive a neo-Quenya word without knowing the rules

Hope that helped




________________________________
From: truffles_koboi <truffles_koboi@...>
To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 2:23:37 AM
Subject: [elfling] Curious words


Le suilannon,
I am only just learning Sindarin and Quenya, and came across this poem in
Quenya:

Ai lintulinda Lasselanta
Pilingeve suyer nalla ganta
Kuluvi ya karnevalinar
V'ematte singi Eldamar

Does anyone know what V'ematte, singi,Pilingeve, suyer, or ganta means?
The best I could do was the "lin" in Pilingeve is sing, and eve is everlasting(
?) The "gan" in ganta meens high, or noble, as well I think. Does anyone have
any suggestions for the other words, or where to find them?

Rim Hannaid!
Truffles-Koboi






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This is�lines 5-9 of the Qenya poem 'Narqelion'. Vinyar Tengwar #40 is devoted
to this poem which is analyzed by Christopher Gilson. By the way, your rendition
is not quite correct. It should read:
�
Ai! lintuilind(ov)a Lasselanta
Piliningwe s�yer nalla qanta
Kuluvai ya karnevalinar
V'ematte sinqi Eldamar.
�
Gilson translates these lines as follows:
�
Oh! Fall, its swallows spring-like trilling
All the airs indeed with feathers filling,
Golden-hued and orange-red, recalls
The gems bestrewn near Elven-halls.
�
~Arthur
















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The Third International Conference on J.R.R. Tolkien's Invented
Languages
'Omentielva Nelya'
6 - 9 August, 2009


* Change of venue

     Omentielva Nelya was previously announced to take place in
Cambridge, England. It has unfortunately proved impossible to
hold it there.
     Fortunately, however, the respected Elfling poster Tuilinde,
Susan Frances Edwards, was able to provide an alternative at
short notice, and made it possible for Omentielva Nelya to
instead be held in Whitehaven, England.

* Registration opens

     The full registration fee is 75 GBP, which includes the volume
of proceedings, as well as all meals and simple sleeping-space.
(For a smaller fee, £ 20, you may register as a non-attending
participant; in this way you support the conference and will get a
copy of the published proceedings.)
     Registration at this price will be open from now, and at least
until July 1. If we then cannot accept more participants, we will
announce it here. The registration fee may be raised after July 1.

     Omentielva's website at <www.omentielva.com> is about to be
updated with the new information, and more will be added by and by.
There is (or will be tomorrow) a registration page ("Next
conference", then "Registration") where you can register online.

	 Nam�rie tenn' Omentielva!

		 Beregond

For Omentielva Nelya we call for scholarly papers on all aspects of
any or all of Tolkien's invented languages, in any or all of their
conceptual stages.

The proceedings of the conference will be published in the third volume
of Arda Philology, to appear in 2010.

To propose a paper, send an abstract to Beregond, Anders Stenstr�m, the
Omentielva Secretary. Do not make the abstract too short; a couple of
hundred words will normally be needed (but it of course depends on the
complexity of your subject). You do not need to have your conclusions
all worked out in the proposal, but delineate how you intend to reach
them. Append a short presentation of yourself (four lines or less).
Specify which sources you will rely on, and whether you will discuss any
previous studies.

We expect the presentation of a paper to take 40 minutes. But we aim at
a single-thread programme, and so can accommodate papers of varying
length. Please specify how long you expect to speak, and any technical
equipment you need. Be prepared for questions and discussion at the end
of your presentation.

Copyright or similar considerations may apply. For publication, you have
to provide a copy of your paper in which all quotation is highlighted
and the source given.

Append a short presentation of yourself (four lines or less).

If you wish to submit a paper but can not attend the conference, you may
send a paper to be read and discussed. In the latter case, state any
directions or preferences you may have for the presentation.

========================================================
Information about Omentielva Nelya: <www.omentielva.com>

Sarmendili,

I have now added version 3 of the font Tengwar Eldamar to Amanye Tenceli (here:
http://at.mansbjorkman.net/tengwareldamar.htm). Among other things, this version
solves the problem of a-tehtar overlapping the nasal tehtar. A few new letters
have also been added.

Yours,
M�ns

Firstly, thank you all who replied to the original message. We've definitely
covered some ground, and I'm pretty sure that all of you have answered most
if not all of my questions. So thanks! "Hantal�! ar a n� alya!" (Thanks! and
be blessed!)

Let me just summarize all of this and compact it down so I can know that I
have it correctly:

*MUST:*
"Mauya nin auta" -> [it] compels for me to leave.
"Maurenen autuvan(y�)" -> [it is] by need [that] I will leave.
"Nany� maita, si� samin(y�) maur� mati�va" -> I am hungry, thus I have need
of eating.
(So the concept of "must" in English is translated as "having a need to" and
said that way in Quenya, right?)

*SHOULD:*
"Nauva m�ra lyen tul�" -> [it] would be good for you to come (you should
come)
"Caruval mai tuli�nen" -> You will do/make well by coming
(The idea of "should" is translated as "will be good" as in "It will be good
if you come" -> "You should come")
*
WOULD (future-tense):*
"Tulani�n(y�), er ..." -> I would come, but... (is this right? or would it
be "tuluvani�n(y�)?")
(The idea of future tense "would" in English is best described as a future
conditional -> "I would go if...")

*WOULD (future past-tense):
*"Tulleni�n(y�), er ..." -> I would have come, but... (Is this right?)

It seems like this is finally starting to make sense :)
Thank all of you who contributed to this!

On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 11:04 PM, Helge K. Fauskanger <
helge.fauskanger@...> wrote:

> Tyler Kocheran asked (and similar questions have re-emerged):
>
> >  are there Quenya words for "must," "would," and or "should?"
>
> >  The word "must" in English implies a need to, as in "I must go"
> translates into an idea of "I have/need to leave." In Quenya, would this
> be translated as "Saminy� maur� auta" -> "I have a need to leave"?
>
> I guess I�d say _mauya nin auta_ �(it) compels for me to leave� or
> _maurenen autuvan_ �(it is) by need (that) I will leave�, or even _samin
> maure auti�va_ �I have need of leaving�.
>
> >  As far as "would" and "should," I can't think of a way in Quenya to
> express these ideas. In the sentence "I would go," the word "would"
> implies that the speaker has the desire or is willing to go, but is
> prevented from doing so in some way. I don't know how "should," would be
> expressed either, perhaps as a reference to a moral/personal obligation
> to do something?
>
> I presented some ideas about �should� earlier; probably various
> circumlocutions with �good� or �well� can be used (�you should eat
> fruit� > _matie y�ve nauva m�ra lyen_ = �eating fruit will be good for
> you�; �you should come� > _caruval mai tuli�nen_ = �you will do well by
> coming�).
>
> As for �would�, I think the best available alternative is the
> future-past tense in _-umne_, as in _matumne_ �was going to eat�
> (VT48:32) and so maybe *�would eat�. Hence perhaps e.g. _tulumnen (mal
> nanye hampa)_, �I was going to come/would have come (but I am restrained)�.
>
> >  Have you published your pieces of your translated New Testament?
>
> Sure:
>
> http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/apantale.rtf
>
> The Index page on Ardalambion still says this is only the Revelation
> (Apantale!) of John, but actually the gospel and letters traditionally
> ascribed to the same apostle are now included. (Due to certain technical
> problems, it has been difficult for me to edit the index page lately.)
>
> To return to the question of �would�: one of the most challenging things
> to talk about in Neo-Quenya is wholly unreal situations, like �this
> would be true if some other condition had been met (but it was not).� An
> example from my Bible translations would be John 11:21, where we need to
> translate what Martha says to Jesus regarding the recently-diseased
> Lazarus: �Lord, if you had been here, my brother had not been (would not
> have been, would not be) dead.�
>
> I simply used _qui_ �if� + past tense verbs: _Heru, qui anel s�s,
> h�nonya �me qualin._ �Lord, if you were here (earlier), my brother was
> not dead (now).� This is obviously a provisional solution only, for we
> have no Tolkien examples to guide us. What we would want is a true
> subjunctive form of the verb.
>
> -HKF
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> --
> Manager address: elfling-owner@yahoogroups.com
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>
>
>


--
And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of
sleep;
for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The can't be Quenya because it has words that start with "g". Maybe it's
"Qenya?" Telerin has words with an initial "g." Sindarin does, too, but this
poem clearly isn't Sindarin. (Quenya lost its initial Gs at some point in
Tolkien's historical perception.)------------Herenvarno-----------------

Palatinus wrote:


  > I think Helge (aka Mr. Fauskanger) doesn't update his Quenya Course.

Actually Mr. Fauskanger (aka "me") has long been working on an update,
and I finally see the end of this work, but I can't upload a
half-finished (or even 95 % finished) revision -- or some parts of the
course would contradict other parts. Revising a book-length document of
this kind, where the later parts always build on what has already been
said, is anything but easy.

- HKF

Sarmendili!

We celebrate the tenth birthday of Amanye Tenceli with a description of Sarati
for Quenya (here: http://at.mansbjorkman.net/sarati_quenya.htm). As always, all
comments, suggestions and corrections are welcome and appreciated.

Yours,
M�ns

Aiya M�ns!
Thank you for your publications on Tengwar, they have helped us all in
learning the transcription and have proved to be invaluable! Happy tenth!

  - Tyler

On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Mans Bjorkman <at@...> wrote:

> Sarmendili!
>
> On April 3, my web site Amanye Tenceli (http://at.mansbjorkman.net/) turns
> ten. To celebrate this I will add various content to the web site over the
> next few days.
>
> Today I have added a description of Tengwar punctuation (here:
> http://at.mansbjorkman.net/teng_punctuation.htm). As always, all comments,
> suggestions and corrections are welcome and appreciated.
>
> In case anyone is interested, I have written a brief chronicle of the first
> decade of Amanye Tenceli (here: http://at.mansbjorkman.net/ten-years.htm).
>
> Yours,
>    M�ns
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> --
> Manager address: elfling-owner@yahoogroups.com
> Unsub address: elfling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Elfling welcome:
http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea/elfling.html<http://www.terracom.net/%7Edoroth\
ea/elfling.html>
> Elfling FAQ: http://nellardo.com/lang/elf/faq.htmlYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


--
And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of
sleep;
for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mellyn!

     The production of _Arda Philology_ 2, the proceedings of the
second Omentielva conference, held in Antwerp in 2007, has been
interrupted by other concerns for some months. It will, however,
soon be continued, and the volume will appear in time for
Omentielva Nelya, if not sooner.

	 Suilad,

		 Beregond

Hey all, it's been a while since my last post, so I apologize for this being so
long, but I was wondering how you would tell the difference between Active
Participle and Perfective Active Participle?

Some other things I needed help with are the following I found in David Salo's
book and I wanted to get some advice as to how to put them into effect when
translating or freewriting a piece of work:

Basic: VSO or VS for intransitive sentences
When the subject or object moves to topic position, the word order is SVO for
subject and OVS for the object.

When the object of a verb is a pronoun (not a noun phrase), it normally precedes
the verb to make the OVS word order. The Verb sometimes also moves, making the
VOS order, and the subject makes the SOV order.

If there's an infinitive governed by the verb then it makes the normal (VSO)
order (VSIO), the verb is also single with an adjective making the VS order.
(e.g. no aer "be holy")

Transitives with first or second person pronouns may omit pronoun and make a VO
sentence. Intransitives make the V or OV with pronominal objects.

Noun-prepositional phrases have the object then the to or for us actions. (OVS)

Noun phrases usually don't have verbs (to be is implied).

All I really want to know is when and how to use these, and I apologize again
for it being so long. Any help would be appreciated.

Hi all, I have a question since several years.

I have the book "Introduction to Elvish", which is a composition of articles by
various authors, edited by Jim Allan.

Mr. Allan's only real-world text is the foreword where he describes Tolkien's
linguistic studies and the clubs and societies, as well as fanzines created for
them

Apart from this, I never heard anything else about Mr. Allan out of the context
of the book. All I can infer from the foreword is that he was very active in
that field, and perhaps he hailed from Toronto.

The only other time I heard about him, had been a text titled "Report from
Marquette" but I never saw the original text.

My question is simple: Who is Mr. Jim Allan? Why *I* haven't heard about him
other than these two contexts? Is he still around? Does he have an online
presence?

Any information will be appreciated.




___________________________________________________________
�������������� Yahoo!;
���������� �� ���������� �������� (spam); �� Yahoo! Mail
�������� ��� �������� ������ ��������� ���� ��� �����������
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After making an initial attempt to post to this list requesting some
starting points, and the subsequent moderation bounce, I managed to
develop some baseline suggestions and help from some other lists so
there is at least a useful starting point.

The lists that were helpful were: merp@..., endor@googlegroups.com,
tolklang@..., and  tolkien_list@googlegroups.com.  I list these
resources just as suggested resources for other Tolkien
linguistic "newbs" (such as myself) who might also run into
this "chicken and the egg" situation as well.

So, here are several suggestions, and I was hoping for some additional
vetting from this learned group if folks would be so kind.

I am attempting to translate "Inland Empire" or some variant thereof.
This is a geographic reference here in the Inland Northwest of the
United States. Includes typically Eastern Washington, Northern Idaho,
and also sometimes also Western Montana, Eastern Oregon, and even the
southern portions of Eastern British Columbia and western Alberta
Canada. For the purpose of this translation effort, it is mostly
focused on Eastern Washington and Northern Idaho in forming a TS smial
serving this area. This areas is "lumped together" based on geography,
climate, economics, and culture. Not because of any
political/governmental links per se.
An alternative would just be "Inland Northwest", though that seems less
colorful than "Inland Empire", but if that assists in a better working
and sounding interpretation it will be sufficient. ;-)
Languages of interest include Sindarin, Quenya, Adunaic, or Khuzdul.

Here are some suggestions proposed so far (many thanks to Beregond,
Morgan, Graney, Elena, and others):

* Ardhonalf (S. "Land of the Great Realm")
* Gabilg�n (Kh. "Great Country")
* Ararth�ni (Ad. "Land of the King")
* Mittalmarani� (Q. "Inland Kingdom")
* Mittalmarda ("_Mittal-_ appears to be a prefix meaning "between."
_Marda_ is a whole word glossed "dwelling" (related to _mar-_ (verb) to
dwell)...._arani�_; the other synonyms mentioned are formed from
attested words and suffixes, but they appear to have been abandoned by
Tolkien in favor of _arani�_..... another way of expressing "emperor":
_Tararan_, high king (Tar+aran). High King in English implies the
senior among a group of kings. Likewise, emperors may rule over lesser
kings. The Holy Roman Emperor ruled over a slew of regional monarchs,
for example. Then we could have _tararani�_ "empire." Hence we would
have _N�ryorna Tararani�_. It's possible, though that _arani�_ can only
be used as an abstract (so kingdom in the sense of "reign") and not as
a concrete noun. _-i�_ is, after all, a suffix for forming abstracts.
Perhaps _Tararand�r�_ with short form _Tararandor_ then? I
  still suggest _tararani�_. Sometimes constructions that were abstract
originally have drifted to become concrete in Quenya, and I think
_tararani�_ is a safer neologism than _tararandor_. ")
("etymology of _Mittalmar_, the Inlands of N�menor, is presumably
something like 'inside expanses'. _Mittalmarda_ is meant as a singular
_mittalma_ 'an inland' + _arda_.")

Thank you in advance for any kind suggestions.
Cheers!
-Hawke

Hi,

Jim Allan used to (several years ago) post at the
http://forum.barrowdowns.com/ and http://www.thetolkienforum.com/.  .  I got
to know him slightly years ago when we were both working on a revised
Silmarillion, but haven't heard from him for a long time.  As far as I'm aware,
there are no other publications by him, which is a shame as he is a very
perceptive and thorough guy.

- Aiwendil


-----Original Message-----
From: Palatinus <elfiness@...>
To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 11:17 am
Subject: [elfling] Jim Allan?




i all, I have a question since several years.
I have the book "Introduction to Elvish", which is a composition of articles by
arious authors, edited by Jim Allan.
Mr. Allan's only real-world text is the foreword where he describes Tolkien's
inguistic studies and the clubs and societies, as well as fanzines created for
hem
Apart from this, I never heard anything else about Mr. Allan out of the context
f the book. All I can infer from the foreword is that he was very active in
hat field, and perhaps he hailed from Toronto.
The only other time I heard about him, had been a text titled "Report from
arquette" but I never saw the original text.
My question is simple: Who is Mr. Jim Allan? Why *I* haven't heard about him
ther than these two contexts? Is he still around? Does he have an online
resence?
Any information will be appreciated.


__________________________________________________________
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αρεθήκατε τα ενοχλητικά μηνύματα (spam); Το
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

An active participle is a verbal adjective in present tense. This corresponds to
a verb with the english ending -ing (but gerunds also take this ending). An
example of an active participle is "seeing" in this sentence:
"Seeing the avalanche, he ran as fast as he could in the other direction." This
sort of participle expresses an action in progress; we could rephrase this
sentence so that it started "while seeing the avalanche..." and the meaning
would remain the same. So apparently the man in question is looking over his
shoulder while running.

To express the meaning that a Sindarin  perfective active participle has,
English uses having + past participle. Consider the example, "having seen the
avalanche, he ran as fast as he could in the other direction." This sort of
participle signifies completed action, so that we could rephrase this sentence
so that it started with "after seeing..." and it would mean basicaly the same
thing. So now the man probably isn't looking at the avalanche; he's just running
like mad. The difference here is that Sindarin expresses having + past
participle in one word.

You probably didn't need quite that much explanation, but I like to be
completely unambiguous. Hope this helps.-----------Hernvarno------


--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "elffanatic2000" <elffanatic2000@...> wrote:
>
> Hey all, it's been a while since my last post, so I apologize for this being
so long, but I was wondering how you would tell the difference between Active
Participle and Perfective Active Participle?
>
> Some other things I needed help with are the following I found in David Salo's
book and I wanted to get some advice as to how to put them into effect when
translating or freewriting a piece of work:
>
> Basic: VSO or VS for intransitive sentences
> When the subject or object moves to topic position, the word order is SVO for
subject and OVS for the object.
>
> When the object of a verb is a pronoun (not a noun phrase), it normally
precedes the verb to make the OVS word order. The Verb sometimes also moves,
making the VOS order, and the subject makes the SOV order.
>
> If there's an infinitive governed by the verb then it makes the normal (VSO)
order (VSIO), the verb is also single with an adjective making the VS order.
(e.g. no aer "be holy")
>
> Transitives with first or second person pronouns may omit pronoun and make a
VO sentence. Intransitives make the V or OV with pronominal objects.
>
> Noun-prepositional phrases have the object then the to or for us actions.
(OVS)
>
> Noun phrases usually don't have verbs (to be is implied).
>
> All I really want to know is when and how to use these, and I apologize again
for it being so long. Any help would be appreciated.
>

Aiya, meldonyar!
Are there Quenya words for the days of the week, eg: Sunday, Monday,
Tuesday, Wednesday, etc? I am as of yet unable to find any online.

Hantal�!
  - Tailer

--
And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of
sleep;
for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi,

Have a look at Appendix D of Return of the King




________________________________
From: Tyler Kocheran <rfkrocktk@...>
To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2009 10:23:40 PM
Subject: [elfling] Quenya: Days of Week?





Aiya, meldonyar!
Are there Quenya words for the days of the week, eg: Sunday, Monday,
Tuesday, Wednesday, etc? I am as of yet unable to find any online.

Hantalë!
- Tailer

--
And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of
sleep;
for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






___________________________________________________________
Χρησιμοποιείτε Yahoo!;
Βαρεθήκατε τα ενοχλητικά μηνύματα (spam); Το
Yahoo! Mail
διαθέτει την καλύτερη δυνατή προστασία
κατά των ενοχλητικών
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ae!
--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Tyler Kocheran <rfkrocktk@...> wrote:
>
> Are there Quenya words for the days of the week, eg: Sunday, Monday,
> Tuesday, Wednesday, etc? I am as of yet unable to find any online.
>

One can find Elenya, Anarya, Isilya, Ald�a, Menelya, E�renya & Valanya or T�rion
as the Q. names corresponding to tr. Hobbitish Sterday, Sunday, Monday,
Trewsday, He(ve)nsday, Mersday & Hiday, and thus as possibly equivalents of En.
Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday & Friday, in App D second
part, 'The Calendars'.

Suilaid, Mithrennaith

Both the Quenya and Sindarin forms for the the days of the week are found in
Appendix D of LoTR. But in case you don't have access to it, they are given here
with Quenya followed by Sindarin:
�
Saturday: Elenya - Orgilion [Star-day]
Sunday: Anarya - Oranor [Sun-day]
Monday: Isilya - Orithil [Moon-day]
Tuesday: Ald�ya - Orgaladhad [Two Trees-day] -- the N�men�reans changed this to
Ald�a - Orgaladh. [Tree-day in reference to the White Tree only, because
Nimloth, believed to be descended from Telperion, grew in the King's Court in
N�menor]
Wednesday: Menelya - Ormenel [Heaven's-day]
Thursday: E�renya - Oraearaon [Sea-day; this day was added by the N�men�reans]
Friday: Valanya (or T�rion) - Orbelain (or Rodyn) [Valar's-day; this was the
High Day of the week]
�
I hope this helps.
�
Arthur



"What part of 'You're dead' don't you understand? ~ N�mo to an Unidentified
Elven F�a giving the Lord of Mandos grief




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There are Quenya Days of the week in Appendix D of Lord of the Rings. Eldarin
weeks were six days, though, so there aren't direct equivalents to English days
of the
week.---Herenvarno--------------------------------------------------------------\
---