Hello All!
My wife and I recently took up learning Quenya as our second language, and
we're thrilled to be learning it. I do have a question about how some
devices are constructed in Quenya, however, and I haven't been able to find
anything on it thus far. In English, I would say "I am 25 years old" and in
spanish I would say (paraphrased) "I have 25 years" [yo tiene 25 anos].
Which system does Quenya employ? Would I say *Nanyë maita* or would I
say *Harnanyë
maita* to express that "I am hungry"/"I have hunger"?

Hantalyë!
  - TK

--
And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of
sleep;
for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I found iFlipr to be a great idea for studying language, but I am
wondering if anyone has found an application that does translation
and/or transcription?  However, just being able to run a Tengwar font
on iPhone would be great...

Thanks for any insight.

- David

I meant _Haryanyë maita_ ("I have hunger"), not _Harnanyë maita_ ("I
wound hunger"!). So I'm assuming that the correct way to express the
idea that "I am hungry" would be _Nanyë maita_. I guess we'll just
stick with that if no one else has any thoughts on it.

rfkrockteekers skrev:
> I meant _Haryanyë maita_ ("I have hunger"), not _Harnanyë maita_ ("I
> wound hunger"!). So I'm assuming that the correct way to express the
> idea that "I am hungry" would be _Nanyë maita_. I guess we'll just
> stick with that if no one else has any thoughts on it.

It's rather the case that the idiom is different in
Quenya and English: while the correct English way to
express that one is in a state of famish is with the
verb "be" + the adjective "hungry" the correct Quenya
way is with "have" + the noun hunger.  There is no
reason to use a literal translation of the English
idiom in a case where we know the Quenya idiom to be
different!

It's rather like when my son speaks English
and says _I go in the school_ with an over-literal
translation of the Swedish idiom for "I go to school".
You understand what he means, but it doesn't sound
quite right.  Likewise an Elf, or rather Tolkien,
would have understood _Nanyë maita_, but it would
not have sounded quite right in Quenya, just as
_I have hunger_ doesn't sound quite right in
English.

Latin, by comparison, has a simple verb _esurire_ for
the concept of "to be hungry"; it cannot be decomposed
into parts meaning "to be" or "to have" and "hyngry"
or "hunger".  It just is so that different languages
express the same concepts in more or less different
ways.  We are prone to read subtle differences of meaning
into these differences of idiom, but there isn't really
any.

/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch atte melroch dotte se
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
                 A h-ammen ledin i phith!                \ \
      __  ____ ____    _____________ ____ __   __ __     / /
      \ \/___ \\__ \  /___  _____/\ \\__ \\ \  \ \\ \   / /
      / /   / /  /  \    / /Melroch\ \_/ // /  / // /  / /
     / /___/ /_ / /\ \  / /Roccondil\_  // /__/ // /__/ /
    /_________//_/  \_\/ /Eowine __  / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
   ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
|| Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||

Thanks so much for getting back to me! It's a "good to know" thing in order
to construct Quenya sentences properly, especially since we are more
interested (per se) in speaking Quenya, not just writing. So I assume that
_Haryanyë maita_ ("have" + "I" + "hunger"), would this be correct? Also, is
this a general rule to follow in expressing a transient state of being in
English? IE: Would I express in Quenya "I have 18 years" as the idea that I
am 18 years old?

Again, thanks so much for your help.

On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 10:48 PM, Benct Philip Jonsson <melroch@...>wrote:

> rfkrockteekers skrev:
> > I meant _Haryanyë maita_ ("I have hunger"), not _Harnanyë maita_ ("I
> > wound hunger"!). So I'm assuming that the correct way to express the
> > idea that "I am hungry" would be _Nanyë maita_. I guess we'll just
> > stick with that if no one else has any thoughts on it.
>
> It's rather the case that the idiom is different in
> Quenya and English: while the correct English way to
> express that one is in a state of famish is with the
> verb "be" + the adjective "hungry" the correct Quenya
> way is with "have" + the noun hunger.  There is no
> reason to use a literal translation of the English
> idiom in a case where we know the Quenya idiom to be
> different!
>
> It's rather like when my son speaks English
> and says _I go in the school_ with an over-literal
> translation of the Swedish idiom for "I go to school".
> You understand what he means, but it doesn't sound
> quite right.  Likewise an Elf, or rather Tolkien,
> would have understood _Nanyë maita_, but it would
> not have sounded quite right in Quenya, just as
> _I have hunger_ doesn't sound quite right in
> English.
>
> Latin, by comparison, has a simple verb _esurire_ for
> the concept of "to be hungry"; it cannot be decomposed
> into parts meaning "to be" or "to have" and "hyngry"
> or "hunger".  It just is so that different languages
> express the same concepts in more or less different
> ways.  We are prone to read subtle differences of meaning
> into these differences of idiom, but there isn't really
> any.
>
> /BP 8^)>
> --
> Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch atte melroch dotte se
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
>                A h-ammen ledin i phith!                \ \
>     __  ____ ____    _____________ ____ __   __ __     / /
>     \ \/___ \\__ \  /___  _____/\ \\__ \\ \  \ \\ \   / /
>     / /   / /  /  \    / /Melroch\ \_/ // /  / // /  / /
>    / /___/ /_ / /\ \  / /Roccondil\_  // /__/ // /__/ /
>   /_________//_/  \_\/ /Eowine __  / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
> Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
>  ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
> || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> --
> Manager address: elfling-owner@yahoogroups.com
> Unsub address: elfling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Elfling welcome:
http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea/elfling.html<http://www.terracom.net/%7Edoroth\
ea/elfling.html>
> Elfling FAQ: http://nellardo.com/lang/elf/faq.htmlYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


--
And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of
sleep;
for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Greetings!

I'm working on a new poem in Quenya about Gondolin, in Turgon's voice, and have
a query about the various Sindarin place names.
I know that these days we say Mumbai and Beijing, rather than Bombay and Peking,
but is there any general rule saying whether all Sindarin place names should be
changed or left as they are?  The problem comes when one wants to do more than
just use the name on its own.
How would one go about saying The peoples of Beleriand?  Is it possible to put a
Quenya suffix onto a Sindarin proper name?
Would it be out of order to assume that the attested name Tumbolatsin is the
Quenya for Tumladen?

I would be grateful for any thoughts on the subject.  Many thanks,

Nai elen siluva tielyannar!

Tuilinde



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> It's rather the case that the idiom is different in
> Quenya and English: while the correct English way to
> express that one is in a state of famish is with the
> verb "be" + the adjective "hungry" the correct Quenya
> way is with "have" + the noun hunger.  There is no
> reason to use a literal translation of the English
> idiom in a case where we know the Quenya idiom to be
> different!

I am a bit puzzled - how do you know the correct Quenya way to express
this is 'have' and the noun 'hunger'? Is this attested anywhere?
Personally, I would not use for example _harya-_ here, as its connotations
seem to suggest the idea of '(inherited) possession' - intuitively I'd go
for a literal translation of 'I am hungry' instead - but I may have missed
something - could you clarify?

Thanks,

* Thorsten

Greetings!

For your perusal, here is the first part of a poem by a fictional Tuilinde of
Dol Amroth.  The English -version- has appeared in Amon Hen.  The English here
is a literal translation.

Any comments, criticisms, suggestions for improvements, or just impressions will
be gladly received.
Nai elen siluva tielyannar!

Tuilinde
             ~~~~~~

Órenya Ná Narcaina
My Heart Is Torn

Órenya ná narcaina, nás ascátina
aice saccatala carcainen mérinyo.

My heart is torn, it is broken asunder
by[the] sharp rending teeth of my desires.

Vanwa ná tienya imbe melmenya atta;
sanwenyar peryainar *mílienyanen séren.

Lost is my way between my two loves;
my thoughts divided by my longing for peace.

Lienya marir arin Eare,
tasse minya cenen *cal'aureo
minassello Cunduva ollossen.

My people live beside the Great Sea,
where first I saw [the] light of day
from [the] Prince's cliff-top citadel.

Amaureasse ilaurea
hlarnen i hautalóre
miuli i maiwion.

In the dawn of every day
I heard the ceaseless
mewing of the gulls.

Ilya *nútalesse Anaro
falmari laiquaninwe
falastaner hrestasse.

At every setting of the Sun
blue-green waves
foamed on the shore.

Lómesse, silir eleni ar
Isil.  Vendi liltaner,
*aslámar lírilmaron.

At night, shone [the] stars and
Moon. Maidens danced,
to the echoes of our songs.

*Ear-ristanen ondomindor
sinten tás; *earonnar
nú'rondossen tuvanen;

Sea-cut rock towers,
I knew there; sea creatures
in deep caves I found;

Aldar táre ollo lancasse,
nauc' orni termarala,
luhtaner epe súri;

Trees on [the] high cliff's edge,
twisted gorses standing fast,
bowed before [the] winds;

Vanye tyelpi hísi, fantala
falastala falmari;
ilye farne feanya!

Beautiful silver mists, veiling
[the] foaming waves;
all satisfied {sufficed} my spirit!

Erdenya né quantaina i túrenen Eareva;
i rávea súri; ar ammelda *márnórenyava.

My whole being was filled with [the] power of the Great Sea;
the roaring winds; and my most beloved homeland.

Órenya né quanta melmenyo
ammelin *márinya ar lieva;

My heart was full of my love
for my dearest home and people;

Órenya né quanta lienyo melme ninwa.

My heart was full of my people's love for me.


*milienyanen;    milya - to long for  *milie - longing  + nya +nen   
longing-my-by

*cal'aureo;    cala - light    aure-day  -o Gen.suffix
         *cal'aureo   light-day-of   ' elides the two a  s

*nútalesse;   núta - to set   *nútale - the setting    +sse  loc.
         [the] setting-at

*aslámar;     as - with  láma - echo  +r  pl.    with-echoes

*Ear-ristanen;   ear-sea  rista-to cut   +nen instr.  sea-cut-by

*Earonnar;   ear-sea  onnar-creatures  sea-creatures  (seals etc!)

*márnórenyava;  már-origin, home  nóre-land   nya-my  va-of
                 home-land-my-of



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Benct Philip Jonsson <melroch@...> wrote:
>

> It's rather the case that the idiom is different in
> Quenya and English: while the correct English way to
> express that one is in a state of famish is with the
> verb "be" + the adjective "hungry" the correct Quenya
> way is with "have" + the noun hunger.  There is no
> reason to use a literal translation of the English
> idiom in a case where we know the Quenya idiom to be
> different!
>
>
Since we do not seem to have any nouns for "hunger" or "thirst" - at
least I could not find any - some construction with the adjective
"maita" looks like the only solution. As you say, different languages
use different idioms. The English "I am cold" is expressed in German
(Hochdeutsch)with "Mir ist kalt" (with a dative), while the Swiss in
Swiss-German or in High-German "have cold" (I habe kalt). So in
Quenya, to be or to have may not be the only possibilites. It could be
like in German "mir ist kalt" = "ringa nin". As hunger and thirst come
to us through the lack of food or drink, an impulse provided by the
body (hroafelme), a dative construction would probably also make sense
: maita nin, soica nin.

As so often I befuddled my own meaning on first writing,
and what's more I misunderstood the input and didn't have
the wordlists handy to check.

My meaning was that it is good to remember
that different languages have different
idioms and that it is better to use a slightly
un-English idiom rather than creating new
vocabulary in order to calque English idioms
literally.  The mistake I made was to believe
that _maita_ meant "hunger", so that in the
absence of a word for "hungry" it would be better
use a "have" idiom rather than a "be" idiom.
However upon checking Helge's wordlists I
find that _maita_ is indeed an adjective
meaning "hungry" so in this particular case
a "be" idiom _nan(ye) maita_ is indeed to
prefer.

It is of course possible to derive
a noun "hunger" if there should really
be a need (which there isn't if your only
translation need is to express "be hungry")
but in this case the normal first choice
_maite*_ is out, since there is a word
_maite_ meaning "handed" (as in left-handed
or nimble-handed).  I guess one could
hypothesize a derived verb _maita-*_ "to hunger"
and then furter derive (or inflect)
_maitie*_ "a hungering, hunger" from it,
or a noun _maitasse*_ "hungriness"
directly from the adjective (assuming that
_maitesse*_ would mean "handedness", as in
_raicamaitassenya*_.  I must put myself out of
the habit of reading/responding mail on strange
computers away from my books and papers!

/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch atte melroch dotte se
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   "C'est en vain que nos Josués littéraires crient
   à la langue de s'arrêter; les langues ni le soleil
   ne s'arrêtent plus. Le jour où elles se *fixent*,
   c'est qu'elles meurent."           (Victor Hugo)





Tyler Kocheran skrev:
> Thanks so much for getting back to me! It's a "good to know" thing in order
> to construct Quenya sentences properly, especially since we are more
> interested (per se) in speaking Quenya, not just writing. So I assume that
> _Haryanyë maita_ ("have" + "I" + "hunger"), would this be correct? Also, is
> this a general rule to follow in expressing a transient state of being in
> English? IE: Would I express in Quenya "I have 18 years" as the idea that I
> am 18 years old?
>
> Again, thanks so much for your help.
>
> On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 10:48 PM, Benct Philip Jonsson
<melroch@...>wrote:
>
>> rfkrockteekers skrev:
>>> I meant _Haryanyë maita_ ("I have hunger"), not _Harnanyë maita_ ("I
>>> wound hunger"!). So I'm assuming that the correct way to express the
>>> idea that "I am hungry" would be _Nanyë maita_. I guess we'll just
>>> stick with that if no one else has any thoughts on it.
>> It's rather the case that the idiom is different in
>> Quenya and English: while the correct English way to
>> express that one is in a state of famish is with the
>> verb "be" + the adjective "hungry" the correct Quenya
>> way is with "have" + the noun hunger.  There is no
>> reason to use a literal translation of the English
>> idiom in a case where we know the Quenya idiom to be
>> different!
>>
>> It's rather like when my son speaks English
>> and says _I go in the school_ with an over-literal
>> translation of the Swedish idiom for "I go to school".
>> You understand what he means, but it doesn't sound
>> quite right.  Likewise an Elf, or rather Tolkien,
>> would have understood _Nanyë maita_, but it would
>> not have sounded quite right in Quenya, just as
>> _I have hunger_ doesn't sound quite right in
>> English.
>>
>> Latin, by comparison, has a simple verb _esurire_ for
>> the concept of "to be hungry"; it cannot be decomposed
>> into parts meaning "to be" or "to have" and "hyngry"
>> or "hunger".  It just is so that different languages
>> express the same concepts in more or less different
>> ways.  We are prone to read subtle differences of meaning
>> into these differences of idiom, but there isn't really
>> any.
>>
>> /BP 8^)>
>> --
>> Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch atte melroch dotte se
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
>>                A h-ammen ledin i phith!                \ \
>>     __  ____ ____    _____________ ____ __   __ __     / /
>>     \ \/___ \\__ \  /___  _____/\ \\__ \\ \  \ \\ \   / /
>>     / /   / /  /  \    / /Melroch\ \_/ // /  / // /  / /
>>    / /___/ /_ / /\ \  / /Roccondil\_  // /__/ // /__/ /
>>   /_________//_/  \_\/ /Eowine __  / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
>> Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
>>  ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
>> || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> --
>> Manager address: elfling-owner@yahoogroups.com
>> Unsub address: elfling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>> Elfling welcome:
http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea/elfling.html<http://www.terracom.net/%7Edoroth\
ea/elfling.html>
>> Elfling FAQ: http://nellardo.com/lang/elf/faq.htmlYahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

Hello all,

Following the language-to-language comparative mode used thus far,
unless an impediment to any of the choices presented here is attested
or derived, I firmly believe that both forms would be correct.

In Portuguese, for instance, you have both valid forms: "(Eu) tenho
fome" [(I) have hunger], in the verb+noun construction and "(Eu) estou
faminto" [(I) am hungry], in the verb+adjective form.
(Note that the suppression of the subject in the sentence is
considered "better" speech, if one can define better.)

The use of either form varies with the country/region and its use.
Brazilian Portuguese prefers the verb+noun form for daily colloquial
speech, while the verb-adjective construction is used in a more formal
way, in writing, and was more widespread up to mid XX century.

From what I know of Portuguese from Portugal, local preference is
reversed (both forms widely used, at least).

Of course, other Quenya variations may be possible, as the dative form
used in German pointed before.

Just my two cents on this topic.
My best regards,
Luiz


--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Benct Philip Jonsson <melroch@...> wrote:
>
> As so often I befuddled my own meaning on first writing,
> and what's more I misunderstood the input and didn't have
> the wordlists handy to check.
>
> My meaning was that it is good to remember
> that different languages have different
> idioms and that it is better to use a slightly
> un-English idiom rather than creating new
> vocabulary in order to calque English idioms
> literally.  The mistake I made was to believe
> that _maita_ meant "hunger", so that in the
> absence of a word for "hungry" it would be better
> use a "have" idiom rather than a "be" idiom.
> However upon checking Helge's wordlists I
> find that _maita_ is indeed an adjective
> meaning "hungry" so in this particular case
> a "be" idiom _nan(ye) maita_ is indeed to
> prefer.
>
> It is of course possible to derive
> a noun "hunger" if there should really
> be a need (which there isn't if your only
> translation need is to express "be hungry")
> but in this case the normal first choice
> _maite*_ is out, since there is a word
> _maite_ meaning "handed" (as in left-handed
> or nimble-handed).  I guess one could
> hypothesize a derived verb _maita-*_ "to hunger"
> and then furter derive (or inflect)
> _maitie*_ "a hungering, hunger" from it,
> or a noun _maitasse*_ "hungriness"
> directly from the adjective (assuming that
> _maitesse*_ would mean "handedness", as in
> _raicamaitassenya*_.  I must put myself out of
> the habit of reading/responding mail on strange
> computers away from my books and papers!
>
> /BP 8^)>
> --
> Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch atte melroch dotte se
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>   "C'est en vain que nos Josués littéraires crient
>   à la langue de s'arrêter; les langues ni le soleil
>   ne s'arrêtent plus. Le jour où elles se *fixent*,
>   c'est qu'elles meurent."           (Victor Hugo)

On 2008-12-06 Thorsten Renk wrote:
> I am a bit puzzled - how do you know the correct Quenya
> way to express
> this is 'have' and the noun 'hunger'? Is this attested
> anywhere?
>

See message 35153.  I mistook _maita_ to mean "hunger".

/BP

Friends, Greetings!

I'm running into problems with what is becoming an epic poem on Gondolin.

There is, as far as I can discover no Quenya word for _arch_.  It being
necessary to mention the House of the Heavenly Arch and Egalmoth,  do you think
it is permissible to come to the conclusion that the said arch is in fact a
rainbow?!?!

It's heavenly,  it's an arch, it has no one set colour, but many colours. . . .
I would be most grateful if someone would let me know if that makes sense to
them.  I'm loathe to put anything into this which won't be easily understood by
the reader, and as this poem has been commissioned for publication in Lembas
Extra, I've got to make sure it is fit for that.

Many thanks!   Any thoughts yet on all the Sindarin names?  To translate, or not
to translate, that is the question!

Nai elen siluva tielyannar!

Tuilinde

Alright. So what I've gathered so far is that it's pretty much personal
preference when using idioms like this to construct phrases. That's good to
know. Hantalyël! Thanks for all of your help.

On a similar note, does "personal preference" apply when asking questions as
well? I haven't been introduced to interrogative statements yet in Quenya,
so my best guess at asking "how are you" would be "Manen nalyë." Is this
accurate or am I missing something?

On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 11:49 AM, Benct Philip Jonsson
<melroch@...>wrote:

> On 2008-12-06 Thorsten Renk wrote:
> > I am a bit puzzled - how do you know the correct Quenya
> > way to express
> > this is 'have' and the noun 'hunger'? Is this attested
> > anywhere?
> >
>
> See message 35153.  I mistook _maita_ to mean "hunger".
>
> /BP
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> --
> Manager address: elfling-owner@yahoogroups.com
> Unsub address: elfling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Elfling welcome:
http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea/elfling.html<http://www.terracom.net/%7Edoroth\
ea/elfling.html>
> Elfling FAQ: http://nellardo.com/lang/elf/faq.htmlYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


--
And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of
sleep;
for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Susan,
Thanks for posting your poem to the list, I enjoyed it greatly. It is also
helping me figure out Quenya syntax and phrasing better. We all appreciate
it! Can't wait for the other parts!

Hantanyël
  - TK

I have finally made myself busy with a long-overdue wordlist update,
adding to Quenyanna the hundreds of new words that appeared in Parma 17.

Petri Tikka's listing of these words is of course most helpful to me.
Regarding the form _Elerondiel_ "daughter of Elrond" (PM17:56), Petri
rightly points out that this suggests _Elerondo_ as the Quenya form of
Elrond. We do have _Elerosse_ as the Quenya form of Elros (PM:349, 367).
But I believe I have actually seen the form _Elerondo_ itself, directly
attested somewhere in HoME. Can anybody help me with the reference?

- HKF

Tyler,
         many thanks for your note of appreciation.
If you have, or can lay your hands on a copy of  _ The Road Goes Ever On_,  you
will find it most interesting to compare the word order between the prose and
poetry versions of Galadriel's _Namarie_.  In places they are very different
indeed.

For this reason I feel it's permissible to give myself some leeway with word
order when writing poetry, and often express things in ways I wouldn't when
composing a prose story.

Nai elen siluva tielyannar!

Tuilinde

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger"
<helge.fauskanger@...> wrote:
>
>
> Petri Tikka's listing of these words is of course most helpful to me.
> Regarding the form _Elerondiel_ "daughter of Elrond" (PM17:56), Petri
> rightly points out that this suggests _Elerondo_ as the Quenya form of
> Elrond. We do have _Elerosse_ as the Quenya form of Elros (PM:349,
367).
> But I believe I have actually seen the form _Elerondo_ itself, directly
> attested somewhere in HoME. Can anybody help me with the reference?
>
> - HKF
>

By coincidence, I have been looking a few days ago for evidence in
HoME for this Quenya form. I checked most of the pages indexed under
the name of Elrond in all 12 volumes, but have found nothing more than
the note in WJ:414 on S rond Q rondo where Elrond is cited and again
in PM:371.

Órerámar

Suilad!  First post with the Elflings, although I have been reading
the threads and studying Sindarin in my free time.  I am not certain
that I fully understand the complexities of the grammar or
conjugations yet.

I have compliled/created a list of possible names/catch phrases for
an elvish kinship on LotRO and was hoping someone could breeze
through it and let me know if I have missed lentatives or formatted
incorrectly before I take one and make it permanent. :\ (I've come
across some that didn't take time to study first and used incorrect
lentition)

I have a good deal of confusion over forms that use a "-" in the
phrase - for example  _gwaith-i-phethdain_ 'Fellowship of Wordsmiths'
What are the instances when this form is used?

Also, could anyone tell me when it is appropriate to use _o_
for 'of'?  I have seen examples where the 'of' is assumed without a
character and I'm not sure if I have been using this correctly.



My list:  (Only respond if you have time or interest - I would just
like to learn from my mistakes and I know there is a lot to look at
here.)

_Thelyn Alfirin__ – [Immortal Heroes]
_Nost Alfirin_ – [Immortal Kindred]
_I Gwaedh Uireb_ – [The Eternal Alliance]
_I Gwaedh Vedui_ – [The Last Alliance]
_Daro a Maetho_ – [Stay and Fight]
_Maetho `nin Gurth_ – [Fight to the Death]
_Meatho i Duath_ – [Fight the Darkness]
_Maetho i Duath an Ennor_ – [Fight the Darkness in Middle Earth]
_Methed e Nduath_ – [End of the Darkness]
_Methed `ni Nduath_ – [(An) End to the Darkness]
_Thelyn Ennor_ – [Heroes of Middle Earth]
_Aphadrim uin Galad_ – [Followers of the Light]
_I Gwaedh Gilgalad_ – [The Starlight Alliance]
_Maethor Ennor_ – [Warriors of Middle Earth]
_Gwaedh Adanath a Edhil_ – [Alliance of Men and Elves]
_Maetho nin Methed_ – [Fight to the End]
_Calad Illuvatar_ – [Light of Iluvatar]
_Hin Iluvatar_ – [Children of Iluvatar]
_Sedryn Iluvatar_ – [Iluvatar's Faithful (Ones)]
_Amarth uin Edhil_ – [Fate of the Elves]
_I Orn Edlothian_ – (or _I Galadh Edlothian_?) [The Flowering Tree]
_Faradrim Duath_ – [Hunters of Darkness (Shadow)]
_Ringorn uin Galad_ - [Circle of Light]
_Gell or Duath_ - [Triumph over Darkness]
_Calad Earendil_ - [Light of Earendil]
_Aphadrim uin Gilgalad_ - [Followers of Starlight]


One last question - is there an easy way to type on standard US
English keyboard with accents like circumflexes and umlats?
(Apologies for my inexperience)


Hannon le
~Aethniniel

Tuilinde wrote:

  > There is, as far as I can discover no Quenya word for _arch_. It
being necessary to mention the House of the Heavenly Arch and Egalmoth,
do you think it is permissible to come to the conclusion that the said
arch is in fact a rainbow?!?!

The word _cú_ (Etym, stem KU3) is glossed "arch, crescent".

The word seems to have dropped out of my English-Quenya wordlist, though
it is found in the Quenya-English one. I'll add it for the next update.

- HKF

Órerámar:

  > By coincidence, I have been looking a few days ago for evidence in
HoME for this Quenya form. I checked most of the pages indexed under the
name of Elrond in all 12 volumes, but have found nothing more than the
note in WJ:414 on S rond Q rondo where Elrond is cited and again in PM:371.

Hm. Maybe it was really Elerosse I'm thinking of? Well, it must in any
case be rather uncontroversial that Elrond is in Quenya _Elerondo_,
given the word _rondo_ and the patronymic _Elerondiel_. I'll include
Elerondo in my next wordlist update, with an asterisk.

- HKF

Hey all, I was wondering how to say "our lives" in Sindarin and this
is what I came up with : cuilin min. I wasn't sure if this was right,
so if anyone could help me that would be great. Thanks and happy
holidays.

On 2008-12-16 Laura wrote:
> One last question - is there an easy way to type on
> standard US
> English keyboard with accents like circumflexes and
> umlats?
> (Apologies for my inexperience)
>

http://tlt.its.psu.edu/suggestions/international/keyboards/winkey.html

http://tlt.its.psu.edu/suggestions/international/keyboards/winkeyvista.html

http://www.starr.net/is/type/intlchart.html

When emailing about Tolkien's languages it is
perfectly acceptable to replace accented and
circumflexed vowels by doubled vowels aa ee etc.
and ñ by ~ (Shift on the top left key below the
Esc key on a US‑keyboard).  In a web page you
can use the HTML‑entities 'á' 'â'
etc. your HTML code.  You can add them manually
but the US International English keyboard layout
and a WYSIWYG editor is of course easier (though
it can result in messier web pages under the hood).

Well, _cuil_ I think would remain as it is. I'm not sure where the _-in_ at the
end comes from. "Our lives" would then be _cuil vîn_ with lenition of the
possessive adjective. The fact that the possessive is plural would make _cuil_
automatically plural in context.
 
Arthur



"What part of 'You're dead' don't you understand? ~ Námo to an Unidentified
Elven Fëa giving the Lord of Mandos grief.

--- On Wed, 12/17/08, elffanatic2000 <elffanatic2000@...> wrote:

From: elffanaic2000 <elffanatic2000@...>
Subject: [elfling] Need help :(
To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, December 17, 2008, 7:46 PM






Hey all, I was wondering how to say "our lives" in Sindarin and this
is what I came up with : cuilin min. I wasn't sure if this was right,
so if anyone could help me that would be great. Thanks and happy
holidays.


















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "elffanatic2000" <elffanatic2000@...>
wrote:
>
> Hey all, I was wondering how to say "our lives" in Sindarin and this
> is what I came up with : cuilin min. I wasn't sure if this was right,
> so if anyone could help me that would be great. Thanks and happy
> holidays.
>

Hi, as far as I know the diphtong "ui" doesn´t change in plural and
the possessive pronoun needs to be lenited like in _imbas ilaurui vín_
from the_Ae Adar Nîn_, making it rather _cuil vîn_.

I would think it'd be _cuil nîn_

I could find the mentioning of the ending _-in_ as plural ending in
_nauglin_.
But that does not seem to be the usual form of the plural.


-l

On 18-Dec-08, at 1:46 AM, elffanatic2000 wrote:

> Hey all, I was wondering how to say "our lives" in Sindarin and this
> is what I came up with : cuilin min. I wasn't sure if this was right,
> so if anyone could help me that would be great. Thanks and happy
> holidays.
>

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, maike <maike.dulk@...> wrote:

> I would think it'd be _cuil nîn_

I would stick with _cuil vîn_ as _nîn_ means 'my'.

Besides, the use of the article might come into consideration:
_i chuil vîn_, cf. similar expressions in the 'Ae Adar' (_i eneth lín_
etc.).


> I could find the mentioning of the ending _-in_ as plural ending in
> _nauglin_.
> But that does not seem to be the usual form of the plural.

The plural ending _-in_ that occurs frequently in Early Noldorin (and
quite regularly in Goldogrin) seems to be a rare exception in
Sindarin, such as _conin_.


Regards
Erna

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "aelindis" <aon.912734440@...> wrote:
>
> The plural ending _-in_ that occurs frequently in Early Noldorin (and
> quite regularly in Goldogrin) seems to be a rare exception in
> Sindarin, such as _conin_.

What about _elin_ as the plural form of _êl_ ? Or would this one be a
regular plural of an *elen (not found in S. corpus AFAIK) ?

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "aelindis" <aon.912734440@...> wrote:
>
> The plural ending _-in_ that occurs frequently in Early Noldorin (and
> quite regularly in Goldogrin) seems to be a rare exception in
> Sindarin, such as _conin_.

Dear Erna,
I understood that this was hinted at already by maike when she wrote:
> But that does not seem to be the usual form of the plural.

But thank you for the clarification...
Elemmire

Thank you so much for your help with the keyboard!

And many, many thanks to Narbeleth for the assistance with the errors
in my list.  I have already learned more here than I have in the past
month of research elsewhere online.  Seems there are many sites that
are less than accurate out there.