Melde Lambendili,

I would like to inform you that I have updated my Elvish site, Men
Eldalambínen (<www.geocities.com/petristikka/elvish>), with two
things. Firstly, I have finished gathering up my list of Quenya words
from Parma Eldalamberon 17. It should be helpful, despite its uncouth
shape, for making it easier to find the Quenya words in PE17 (and
check the context). Secondly, I have added my essay "The Finnicization
of Quenya" to my website. I presented it during Omentielva Minya, and
it was later published in Arda Philology 1. I would like to update it
with relevant information in the future, but I will not probably have
enough time. In any case, I hope you enjoy it as it is.

Nai Elen siluva lenna,

Petri Tikka

This is a translation of P.B. Shelley's sonnet into NeoQuenya. All comments are
most welcome.


I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: "Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown
And wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed.
And on the pedestal these words appear:
`My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!'
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Nórello yára lendo omennenye
ye eque: talu ú telco ondove haure
tarir erumesse.
Arte litsesse,
pertanna tompa rácina
cendele,
yeo cendie, penga
pé, canwa cár
tanar maitarya
ecendie i walmi mai
ar en termarinte,
pa úcoirie coar,
i má ya te yaine,
i enda ya alanye tai.
Ar i quettar sine netyar i talma:
‘Nanye
Ozimandias, Tárion Tár:
A cene cardanyar,
melehta, ar sorya!‘
Exe ua lemya.
Lann’ i quelie
i polda loico
tana, ú pelo, parna,palanna pelya i passa erume.

Notes on asterisk-words:

*lendo: 'traveller'
*tompa: adj. formed from TOP-, alternative of ppl *tópina
*yaine: 'mocked', pret. of verb *yaiya-, from YAY- (Etym)


  Thomas Ferencz


Let's discuss Eldarin languages - http://aglardh.middangeard.org.uk
Tolkien Wiktionary - http://www.eldarinwiki.com





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Allow me to give a hearty thank you and congrats to Magnus and the Mellonath
Daeron for getting this article updated, translated to English, and published!

Magnus and I have had many, many conversations over the years about Khuzdul.  
I've had the privelage of reviewing his article as he made updates, so I can say
that it largely reflects many of my own views on Khuzdul.   We have a number of
points on which we disagree, but of course most of the study of Khuzdul is
simply guessing the probabilities of various hypotheses.  (If only we could do
more than that!)   Magnus does a great job in illustrating the extent to which
Khuzdul reflects Hebrew.

Because we in the U.S. are in the middle of our political campaign advertising
season, I will say that "My name is Jay Lawson, and I approve this article!"  
:-)


Jay Lawson







________________________________________
From: elfling@yahoogroups.com [mailto:elfling@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
gildir_2
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 3:12 PM
To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [elfling] An analysis of Dwarvish


I have the pleasure to announce a new major article
on Khuzdul written by Magnus Åberg of the Mellonath
Daeron, available on:
http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/publications.html

An older version has been available in Swedish,
this version is up to date and written in English.

I daresay that this is *the* most comprehensible
paper on the subject so far. We in the Mellonath
Daeron are honoured by the author to publish it.

For more new publications, see:
http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/updates.html

Meneg suilaid o Mellonath Daeron
Gildir
Guild-master

Hello,
My name is Linda. I have a puzzle I hope someone can help me with or
help me find someone who can, I would deeply appriciate it.
My friend had a tattoo. He had sent me an email , and this is what it
said:

"I have one more tattoo.  It is a band of Tengwar script that circles
left arm 1.75 times.  I get some comments on it but most people don't
get to see it because it is above the sleeve line.  It reads: Ilqua i
súyar nóna anafirë ná. Á ole aive nauvalye cuina oialë; Á cuinë
nauvalye qualin síra.   The language is Quenya, have fun...."

I have tried multiple tranlation programs, and tried to translate it
myself. Sadly, he has since passed out of my life. Cant really
convince him to tell me what it means now. I am terrible at trying to
figure this stuff out. Can you help? If you are in the state of WA I
will bribe you with chocolate chip cookies. :-)

Thank you in advance,
Linda
work lbailey@...
home ladydezz@...

Hi,
this is my translation sugestion. It might not be the best.


>>Ilqua i súyar nóna anafirë ná.
Everthing that breaths -- Is born to die

>>Á ole aive nauvalye cuina oialë;
[Do] much as if you will live for ever.

>>Á cuinë nauvalye qualin síra.
Live! - You will be dead today.

/Choken




----- Ursprungligt meddelande ----
Från: Linda <ladydezz@...>
Till: elfling@yahoogroups.com
Skickat: torsdag 4 september 2008 21:43:07
Ämne: [elfling] I bribe with chocolate

Hello,
My name is Linda. I have a puzzle I hope someone can help me with or
help me find someone who can, I would deeply appriciate it.
My friend had a tattoo. He had sent me an email , and this is what it
said:

"I have one more tattoo.  It is a band of Tengwar script that circles
left arm 1.75 times.  I get some comments on it but most people don't
get to see it because it is above the sleeve line.  It reads: Ilqua i
súyar nóna anafirë ná. Á ole aive nauvalye cuina oialë; Á cuinë
nauvalye qualin síra.   The language is Quenya, have fun...."

I have tried multiple tranlation programs, and tried to translate it
myself. Sadly, he has since passed out of my life. Cant really
convince him to tell me what it means now. I am terrible at trying to
figure this stuff out. Can you help? If you are in the state of WA I
will bribe you with chocolate chip cookies. :-)

Thank you in advance,
Linda
work lbailey@...
home ladydezz@...


------------------------------------

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       __________________________________________________________
Låna pengar utan säkerhet. Jämför vilkor online hos Kelkoo.
http://www.kelkoo.se/c-100390123-lan-utan-sakerhet.html?partnerId=96915014

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Linda" <ladydezz@...> wrote:
>
> Ilqua i súyar nóna anafirë ná. Á ole aive nauvalye cuina oialë; Á
cuinë nauvalye qualin síra.

I believe that your friend _wanted_ to say something like: "All who
breathe are born to die. Dream as if you'll be alive forever; live
(as if) you'll be dead today", which seems to be a slightly rephrased
version of the well-known James Dean quote.
The use of Quenya however is not quite grammatical in every
particular, IMO.

Regards,
Erna

I am interested in using the word "dream" (or olórë in Quenyan) in a
piece of art I am working on. I have done a lot of research, asked
around on several forums, and have come up with:

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f364/kdring/Dream3.jpg

or

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f364/kdring/Dream10.jpg with the
closer double tehta.

Comments, suggestions? Advice on perhaps a better font or any help on
the aesthetic value? Thanks!

-Kristen

I don't know if I can help you enough to earn the chocolate, but...

> Ilqua i súyar nóna anafirë ná. Á ole aive nauvalye cuina oialë; Á
cuinë nauvalye qualin síra.

Well, the grammar seems unconventional. The first sentence is intended
to mean "everything that breathes is _nóna anafirë_" (but incorrectly
uses a plural verb _súyar_ with a singular subject). _Nóna_ can mean
"born" (isolated from Tolkien's word _Minnónar_, Firstborn, pl.)
_Anafirë_ is a word of obscure meaning. _Ana firë_ in 2 words may
express "to die" (very obvious Anglicism, in that case!) My best guess:
"Everything that breathes is born to die."

_Nauvalye cuina oiale_ = "you will be alive forever". _Á ole_ is
obscure, perhaps an imperative "grow!" _Aive_ is a word I don't
recognize (_aiwe_ means bird, probably irrelevant). _Á cuinë_ may be
intended as an imperative "live!" _Nauvalye qualin síra_ = "you will be
dead today".

I cannot guess exactly what the whole is intended to mean, since the
phrases _nóna anafirë_ and _á ole aive_ are so obscure. There seem to be
some non-Tolkien neologisms in there.

It could be a carpe diem-like message, something like "live life to the
full now because very soon you'll be dead". Paradoxically, the second
sentence seems to promise eternal life whereas the third says you'll die
today.

- HKF

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger"
<helge.fauskanger@...> wrote:

[...]
> _Nauvalye cuina oiale_ = "you will be alive forever". _Á ole_ is
> obscure, perhaps an imperative "grow!" _Aive_ is a word I don't
> recognize (_aiwe_ means bird, probably irrelevant). _Á cuinë_ may be
> intended as an imperative "live!" _Nauvalye qualin síra_ = "you will be
> dead today".

I think ?aive likely intended to be an adverb from #ai as in _aiquen_
then -ve as in _andave_, _síve_, etc., or _ve_ 'as, like' and #ai was
used for 'if' before _qui_ and whatnot were published in VT49, so a
literal compound "as if"?

> I cannot guess exactly what the whole is intended to mean, since the
> phrases _nóna anafirë_ and _á ole aive_ are so obscure. There seem to be
> some non-Tolkien neologisms in there. [...]

Erna/Aelindis seems to have figured it out in #35068. :) Though _Á
ole_ for an imperative "dream!" is somewhat off, considering the
attested verb is actually impersonal _óla-_ (UT, The Istari). On a
side note, in PE17:160,170,181 the root is once _again_ in -R after
how many changes back and forth from -S > -R > -S > -S and on and on
all the way since the QL ... Tollers will you ever stop? *facepalm* xD

- Matt

>> Ilqua i súyar nóna anafirë ná. � ole aive nauvalye cuina oialë; �
> cuinë nauvalye qualin síra.
(...)
> I cannot guess exactly what the whole is intended to mean, since the
> phrases _nóna anafirë_ and _á ole aive_ are so obscure. There seem to be
> some non-Tolkien neologisms in there.
>
> It could be a carpe diem-like message, something like "live life to the
> full now because very soon you'll be dead". Paradoxically, the second
> sentence seems to promise eternal life whereas the third says you'll die
> today.

Well, I guess what it is supposed to mean is

"All that takes breath is born to die,
therefore dream as if you will be alive forever,
and live as if you would die today."

As Helge pointed out, that's not quite what the words in Quenya mean.

* Thorsten

Thank you so much. All of you are wonderful!!! I cant believe the
response. Any one need cookies?? LOL

I was wondering if anyone could tell me about the Sindarin word
structure, about where to put adverbs, prepositions, and all of the
other parts of language in the correct order where they're supposed to
be. thanks for the help.

PS v-s-o (verb-subject-object doesnt help; it only says the main part
of speech in a sentence)

This is mainly to let you know that there will be some more delay in the
release of the new version of my Quenya course. There was a substantial
amount of feedback during proofreading, and at the same time I was tied up
with personal things, thus I did not get the work done as quickly as I
would have liked. Since I received some questions about a release data,
I'd like to give my best estimate at the moment at about 2 weeks from now
before the course will be linked for download. I am sorry for falling back
behind the original schedule.

In other, more optimistic matters: My Sindarin course 'Pedin Edhellen' in
version 3.0 has is now available as printed book in several languages. The
content is identical with the downloadable pdf files, but the layout is
different and in all cases rather beautiful cover pages have been added.
All in all, if you're tired of struggling with printing 160 pages and
prefer to have something in the bookshelf instead, or if you're looking
for a present for a Tolkien enthusiast, there is now an additional option
:-)

The Portuguese version has been published by Arte e Letra (ISBN
978-85-60499-05-2). The English and French version are available via print
on demand in the Ambar-Eldaron webstore.

http://stores.lulu.com/ambar-eldaron

All are also linked from Parma Tyelpelassiva

http://www.phy.duke.edu/~trenk/elvish/

Enjoy!

* Thorsten

Suilad  ...

there is a piece about Sindarin word order in Thorsten Renk's Pedin
Edhellen - chapter 17.4
http://www.phy.duke.edu/~trenk/elvish/downloads/pedin_edhellen_en.pdf.gz

and there is a chapter about word order in David Salo's Gateway to
Sindarin.

there may be more that I am not aware of, though ..

:-)


On 9-Sep-08, at 10:04 PM, elffanatic2000 wrote:

> I was wondering if anyone could tell me about the Sindarin word
> structure, about where to put adverbs, prepositions, and all of the
> other parts of language in the correct order where they're supposed to
> be. thanks for the help.
>
> PS v-s-o (verb-subject-object doesnt help; it only says the main part
> of speech in a sentence)

Hi all!  A lurker here...I am in need of translation help is anyone
can.  I am wondering if someone can translate: Windsong  into Quenya
(and Sindaran.)  It is to be used as a name.  I have my very sketchy
Sind. version, but I know you all have far more experience with this
than me.

Help would be greatly appreciated...
Thanks a bunch!
Smiles
~G

P.S.  I am learning a lot lurking here...wonderful group!

Wind Song:
 
Quenya: Súrelindë
 
Sindarin: Glîrhûl, Laerhûl, possibly Sûllîr and Súllaer, but I'm less
knowledgeable about Sindarin than Quenya so don't quote me. Others with a firmer
grasp of the language may have better ideas.
 
*Arthur


"What part of 'You're dead' don't you understand? ~ Námo to an Unidentified
Elven Fëa giving the Lord of Mandos grief.

--- On Fri, 9/12/08, gwaelinn <gwaelinn@...> wrote:

From: gwaelinn <gwaelinn@...>
Subject: [elfling] Help with names, please
To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, September 12, 2008, 8:04 AM






Hi all! A lurker here...I am in need of translation help is anyone
can. I am wondering if someone can translate: Windsong into Quenya
(and Sindaran.) It is to be used as a name. I have my very sketchy
Sind. version, but I know you all have far more experience with this
than me.

Help would be greatly appreciated. ..
Thanks a bunch!
Smiles
~G

P.S. I am learning a lot lurking here...wonderful group!


















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Suilad ~G,



this is just Sindarin, I know nothing of Quenya (yet).

(note that not all words are attested)

'song' translates as _glîr_ or _laer_, _aerlinn_ is, probably
something like 'holy song', or 'song about the sea'.

The verb 'to sing' is _linna-_ ; and the _aer-_ part refers to the
Sindarin word for 'sea' (_aear_, _aearon_, _aer_, _gaear_, _gaearon_,
_gaer_)

so maybe you could construct something analogue to _aerlinn_ ...

'wind' in Sindarin is _gwaew_ or _ sûl_; 'windy' is _ gwaeren_

A question though .. would 'windsong' mean "Song of the wind" -
referring to the sound of the wind, or rather "Song about the wind" ..
or even "Song that is like the wind" - or "windy song"?

"song of (the) wind": _glîr en gwaew_ / _glîr e hûl_  /  _laer en
gwaew_ / _laer e hûl_  / _linn* en gwaew_ / _linn* e hûl_  /

"windy song": _glîr 'waeren_  / _laer 'waeren_  / _linn 'waeren_

or, maybe, if it would become a compound it would assimilate, .. that
is something I know little of yet, but it means that the words that
form the compound would change where they "meet up" so that the result
sounds more fluent:

like glawar-lind → Glewellin  'song of gold' (the _i_ causes the _a_
to shift to _e_) you could construct something like  _gwaew-lind_ →
_Gwaellin_ ... or _sûl-lind_ → _Suillin_ (?) .. or  _gwaew-glîr_
→ _gwaelîr_(?)  or  _sûl-glîr_ → _suilîr_(?)

I do not know if you could make a compound with the adjective
_gwaeren_ but if so ..  _gwaeren-lind_ → _Gwaerellin_ ... or _gwaeren-
laer_ → _gwaerellaer_ (hmm find this one not flowing right ...) or
_gwaeren-glîr_ → _gwaerellîr_ ...?



rather too many options than too few, to be short :) ..like I said, I
don't know much about how compounds are formed so I may have missed
something very obvious. Maybe someone else can comment?







On 12-Sep-08, at 2:04 PM, gwaelinn wrote:

> Hi all! A lurker here...I am in need of translation help is anyone
> can. I am wondering if someone can translate: Windsong into Quenya
> (and Sindaran.) It is to be used as a name. I have my very sketchy
> Sind. version, but I know you all have far more experience with this
> than me.
>
> Help would be greatly appreciated...
> Thanks a bunch!
> Smiles
> ~G
>
> P.S. I am learning a lot lurking here...wonderful group!
>
>
>

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "gwaelinn" <gwaelinn@...> wrote:
>
> I am wondering if someone can translate: Windsong  into Quenya
> (and Sindaran.)  It is to be used as a name.

Hello Gwaelinn,

I am a beginner in Sindarin, but I think that your name _gwaelinn_ can
mean "Windsong". In Sindarin there is another word for "wind" however:
_sûl_. You could make a name from that: _Súlinn_ or add a female
ending like _-eth_, _-iel_, _-dis_ or male ending like: _-ion_,
_-dor_, _-dir_.

I hope this helps...

Thank you.  I like your Quenya version a lot and tyhink it will work well.
~G
--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Arthur Boccaccio <elhanan_austin@...>
wrote:
>
> Wind Song:
>  
> Quenya: Súrelindë
>  
> Sindarin: Glîrhûl, Laerhûl, possibly Sûllîr and Súllaer, but I'm
less knowledgeable about Sindarin than Quenya so don't quote me.
Others with a firmer grasp of the language may have better ideas.
>  
> *Arthur
>
>
> "What part of 'You're dead' don't you understand? ~ Námo to an
Unidentified Elven Fëa giving the Lord of Mandos grief.
>
> --- On Fri, 9/12/08, gwaelinn <gwaelinn@...> wrote:
>
> From: gwaelinn <gwaelinn@...>
> Subject: [elfling] Help with names, please
> To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, September 12, 2008, 8:04 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi all! A lurker here...I am in need of translation help is anyone
> can. I am wondering if someone can translate: Windsong into Quenya
> (and Sindaran.) It is to be used as a name. I have my very sketchy
> Sind. version, but I know you all have far more experience with this
> than me.
>
> Help would be greatly appreciated. ..
> Thanks a bunch!
> Smiles
> ~G
>
> P.S. I am learning a lot lurking here...wonderful group!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Thank you for the wonderful help! Regarding my name, yes it translates
to Windsong.  I created it years ago as my user name; it fits me.
Unfortunately, lest I be cruxified as a MarySue, I need a new name for
a female character (who is very unlike me!). It will be used as her
father-name or a lover's pet name for her.

Smiles
~G
--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "elmmire" <elmmire@...> wrote:
>
> --- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "gwaelinn" <gwaelinn@> wrote:
> >
> > I am wondering if someone can translate: Windsong  into Quenya
> > (and Sindaran.)  It is to be used as a name.
>
> Hello Gwaelinn,
>
> I am a beginner in Sindarin, but I think that your name _gwaelinn_ can
> mean "Windsong". In Sindarin there is another word for "wind" however:
> _sûl_. You could make a name from that: _Súlinn_ or add a female
> ending like _-eth_, _-iel_, _-dis_ or male ending like: _-ion_,
> _-dor_, _-dir_.
>
> I hope this helps...
>

An interesting read! Thanks for this contribution. One thing I wonder:
what do y'all think about /ps/ and /ks/ being phonemes in Khuzdul?

Travis

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "gildir_2" <gildir_2@...> wrote:
>
>
> I have the pleasure to announce a new major article
> on Khuzdul written by Magnus Åberg of the Mellonath
> Daeron, available on:
> http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/publications.html

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, maike <maike.dulk@...> wrote:
>
> like glawar-lind â†' Glewellin  'song of gold' (the _i_ causes the _a_
> to shift to _e_) you could construct something like  _gwaew-lind_ â†'
> _Gwaellin_ ...

Within _Glewellin_ (presumably _glawar_+_lind_ > _*glewerlind_ (by
i-affection) > _glewellin_) the "r" assimilated to the following "l",
as in _elloth_ (_er_+_loth_), VT42:18.
For what reason however would an additional "l" appear in  _**Gwaellin_?

_*Gwaelin(n)_  is fine, in my opinion.


- Erna

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Arthur Boccaccio <elhanan_austin@...>
wrote:
>
> Wind Song:
>
> Quenya: Súrelindë
>

As the stem is súri- and it is compounded that way in súriquesse, I
would say Súrilinde

Órerámar

Ambar Eldaron is glad to propose you *YATT for MAC*.
Many people were looking for it. Now it's here and fully functional.

You can download it from the new English section of our website:

http://www.ambar-eldaron.com/english

Not all the items are translated now, but you can already have a look on
the different features we propose (games, elvish texts, screensavers...)
---------------------------------------------------
And for the French Speakers, the Quenya Wordlist of Helge Fauskanger
into French is now downloadable here:

http://www.ambar-eldaron.com/langage.html#quenyallo

Enjoy

Evenstar
http://www.ambar-eldaron.com
Le Monde des Elfes


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Suilad Evenstar,

I tried .. downloaded it .. but it does not seem to be an executable
file, or a document of any sort.

I am running OSX Leopard .. for what version is YATT?


On 14-Sep-08, at 5:12 PM, Evenstar wrote:

> Ambar Eldaron is glad to propose you *YATT for MAC*.
> Many people were looking for it. Now it's here and fully functional.
>
> You can download it from the new English section of our website:
>
> http://www.ambar-eldaron.com/english
>
> Not all the items are translated now, but you can already have a
> look on
> the different features we propose (games, elvish texts,
> screensavers...)
> ---------------------------------------------------
> And for the French Speakers, the Quenya Wordlist of Helge Fauskanger
> into French is now downloadable here:
>
> http://www.ambar-eldaron.com/langage.html#quenyallo
>
> Enjoy
>
> Evenstar
> http://www.ambar-eldaron.com
> Le Monde des Elfes
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

hello, all! I am new to this mailing list, and I hope to find some
help concerning a translation I am attempting.

what I want is two dates, as well as a name and a word translated into
quenya, as well as find the correct way of writing it in tengwar.

"Little Star. October 13, 2006"
"Elena. October 26, 2007"

now I know that "star" is "elen" in quenya. I have found that "titta"
means tiny. is it correct to say "titta elen" - or how can I express
this? maybe through a different ending of "elen" instead, that
expresses "little"?

"narquelië" means october.... correct?

now, for the name "Elena" - how do I translate names into quenya? or
would it be better to find the meaning of the name (which in this case
would be "the bright one" or "sun") and then translate this word into
quenya instead?

also, what would be the correct format for the date? day - month -
year... year - month - day... or month - day - year?


utilizing the online tengwar transcriber at
http://tengwar.art.pl/tengwar/ott/start.php I have the following:

_`VjR5_ for elen
_1T1'E_ for titta
_5#6zRjT`V_ for narquelië
_ñTó%_ for 13
_ò%ö%_ for 26
_ò%ðTðTö%_ for 2006
_ò%ðTðT÷T_ for 2007


I appreciate all input you can give me on this. I plan on having this
tattooed, so obviously I want this correct and accurate, since it will
be permanent.

thank you very much for your help!

kind regards,
quira

Suilad,

This version of YATT has been updated the 29 of September 2003...

On my forum, I have a message from a visitor who has Leopard and all is
OK. (http://www.ambar-eldaron.com/forum3/viewtopic.php?p=821&highlight=#821)
Personally, I've an I-Book with OS X and it runs very well.

The file I put on my website is an archive .gz, and I've controlled,
inside there is :
YATT lite
     dict
     modes
     yatt.app
        contents
           MacOS
           Resources

For decompressing, I use Winrar, but I guess it's not the only one able
to open this archive. In effect, sometimes it doesn't show all the items
inside, in particular "yatt.app" and following, but if you close all and
retry from the beginning, it should work.

If there is a decompression problem, I've done another file .zip

Try with this file, perhaps it will be best.

http://www.ambar-eldaron.com/telechargements/YaTT_lite_mac.zip

Tell me if it still doesn't works...



maike a écrit :
> Suilad Evenstar,
>
> I tried .. downloaded it .. but it does not seem to be an executable
> file, or a document of any sort.
>
> I am running OSX Leopard .. for what version is YATT?
>
>
> On 14-Sep-08, at 5:12 PM, Evenstar wrote:
>
>
>> Ambar Eldaron is glad to propose you *YATT for MAC*.
>> Many people were looking for it. Now it's here and fully functional.
>>
>> You can download it from the new English section of our website:
>>
>> http://www.ambar-eldaron.com/english
>>
>> Not all the items are translated now, but you can already have a
>> look on
>> the different features we propose (games, elvish texts,
>> screensavers...)
>> ---------------------------------------------------
>> And for the French Speakers, the Quenya Wordlist of Helge Fauskanger
>> into French is now downloadable here:
>>
>> http://www.ambar-eldaron.com/langage.html#quenyallo
>>
>> Enjoy
>>
>> Evenstar
>> http://www.ambar-eldaron.com
>> Le Monde des Elfes
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> --
> Manager address: elfling-owner@yahoogroups.com
> Unsub address: elfling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Elfling welcome: http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea/elfling.html
> Elfling FAQ: http://nellardo.com/lang/elf/faq.htmlYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Some time ago, just before lightening struck and put my computer out of
commission for a while, I constructed a Quenya sentence including the
words _i orontissen_ with the intended meaning “in the mountains”.

Somewhere I believe I read a complaint to the effect that the Quenya
locative denotes _on_ rather than _in_. If so, the “locative” would be
better termed the _adessive_, the term for a case signifying “on” rather
than “in” (the latter would be an _inessive_).

Of course, there can be no doubt that the Quenya case in -sse (pl.
-ssen) may signify “on”; a good example would be _mahalmassen_ “on
thrones” (UT:305).

In Namárie, Galadriel sings of the domes of Varda “wherein” (yassen) the
stars tremble. The exact spatial relationship between the stars and the
“domes” (tellumar) is somewhat vague; if the “domes” are conceived as a
hard firmament, one might say that the stars are actually “on” it rather
than “in” it.

In the Markirya poem, I have always taken the reference to the “pale
phantoms” that are said to be “in her (the ship’s) cold bosom” (ringa
súmaryasse) as implying that the phantoms are below decks and hence
_inside_ the ship. But the argument has been made that the “bosom” of
the ship can include the decks, and so the phantoms would be “on” the
ship (on deck!) rather than “in” it.

Even if no absolutely unambiguous example of a Quenya locative meaning
“in” rather than “on” can be found, we must now also consider Tolkien’s
own statements about this case. He explicitly noted that it can express
“rest [= stationary position] at or in” (PE17:135). He repeatedly called
the Quenya locative an “inessive” (PE17:62, 66), and that would be
precisely a case implying position “in”. In PE17:62 he speaks of this
case as an “inessive / adessive”, again seemingly implying that it can
mean _either_ “in” or “on”, according to context.

So I don’t believe I was mistaken when I let _i orontissen_ mean “in the
mountains”. One can of course argue that _mí oronti_ would be less
ambiguous (so that the locative could be reserved for the meaning “on/at
the mountains”). The context will normally be sufficient to indicate
whether “on, at” or “in” is the intended meaning of the locative, as
when (say) _i sambesse_ must express “in the room”, because “(up)on the
room” would make little sense.

When we are dealing with a noun denoting something that things can
indeed be “in” as well as “on”, it may be wise to go for the preposition
_mi_ (rather than the ending -sse) if the intended meaning is “in”. But
I don’t think it will ever be positively wrong to let the Quenya
locative express “in” rather than “on”.

- HKF

I must agree with you, and point out the unpublished mid-1950s
preposition list mentioned in VT 43 & 44 that has prep. _se_ 'at, in'
along with suffix -sse (and -se, p.16) from the root √sê 'at': compare
_ló_ and -llo in VT49, loc. > instr. -nen / men- (VT43:35-6,
PE16:107-8), and several other things I could get into by straying
off-topic.

Even in early Qenya when called 'poetic inessive'*, one still finds it
translated as 'on' in, say, _kaire laiq' ondoisen_ "lay upon the green
rocks" (PE16:68), "lying on the green rocks" (69), etc.

*[the v3 Declension charts on p.113-115 have sg. -sse
inessive/locative or short -as, -es, -is, -os (and a by-form -ste);
dual -sset, and pl. -lissen; the -aisen, -ísen, -oisen were very
archaic/poetic plural inessives cf. p.115.]

Back on track, though, it seems to me that looking even way back to
very early forms (I think the v3 charts are likely c. 1920s if I read
the commentary right) we can see a 'locative' form with both inessive
and adessive functions, though it is sometimes simply called
'inessive'. JRRT himself switched from "in. or loc." > "inessive" >
"iness." > "in." > "inessive" for the terminology in that one chart,
and in PE14:46 we find _-sse  inessive  'at, in, by'_ - with sentences
using it as "_on_ the high top of Taniqetil" immediately after! Though
admittedly 'in' would seem to imply 'within' if it were used, as with
'on Earth' for _cemende_ in VT43, cp. your contextual _i sambesse_...
Gah, I'm confusing myself.

Anyway, I once again get off track, but my point is that I find
frequently that early material can help explain or support paradigms
or concepts in later texts, and sometimes he would borrow from his
early material in later texts — who here expected that adverbial -ndon
  (PE14:46-7, 16:113) would reappear in PE17:58? Though admittedly a
form related to _kirya_ was mentioned each of the three times, and
"like gold" in PE14/17, which may explain what sparked Tolkien's mind
to reintroduce it for a brief time. Many may be more familiar with its
usage in Oilima Markirya I & II, though. And I never could have
expected participial -nwa to be reintroduced in VT49 and PE17, albeit
sometimes of different participial type than in earlier material.
*tries to stop digressing*

In conclusion before I find another very-interesting tangent, I
certainly don't think the Q locative is only "on" and not "in".

Regarding "in her cold bosom," Tolkien uses "in [...] bosom" and "upon
[...] bosom" in different ways in his text, the latter often employed
to describe a ship/boat/etc. sailing in/upon the sea, i.e. upon its
bosom. However, there is one example I think of interest to compare to
_súmaryasse_, which is from HoME5 - "... they laid then their beloved
king, giver of rings, in the bosom of the ship, in glory by the mast."
Though admittedly I don't think such ships would have had a
'belowdeck's anyway ... *sigh*

- Matt Dinse

just finished learning quenya from ardalambion and did a quick and not
too great translation of 'may it be' from the fellowship of the ring.
would like some comments

May it be
An evening star
Shines down upon you
May it be
When darkness falls
Your heart will be true
You walk a lonely road
O! How far you are from home
Mornië utúlie
B elieve and you will find your way
Mornië alantië
A promise lives within you now

Násië?? (this is a bit dodgy, more like 'amen' than 'may it be', but i
didn't come across anything in the wordlists, ?may=nai...?)
Elen i sinyeva [a star of the evening]
Síla orello lessë [shines from above upon you]
Násië??
ĺrë huinë lantëa
Órelya nauva voronda
Vantalyë eressëa tië
Ai! Haira le nar marello [O! Far you are from home]
Mornië utúlië
Savë ar ihíruvalyë tielya
Mornië alantië
Vanda ëa lessë sí [a promise exists in you now]

May it be
The shadows call
Will fly away
May it be
You journey on
To light the day
When the night is overcome
You may rise to find the sun
Mornië utúlië
Believe and you will find your way
Mornië alantië
A promise lives within you now

Násië??
I huini yalë
Wiluvar oar
Násië??
Lendalyë or
Calië i aurë
[overcome???]
Ortuvalyë hirië Anar
Mornië utúlië
Savë ar ihíruvalyë tielya
Mornië alantië
Vanda ëa lessë sí

thanks. feedback much appreciated.

-xy-