--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "julialpz" <julialpz@...> wrote:

Hello, Julia:

The main error I'd note is with the Yúlien Sindarin / Sindarin
Classic, where you represent Y- as the Sindarin vowel y (ü) rather
than the consonant it actually is. With the full mode, you could
probably represent it by a long carrier; with the ómatehtar one yanta
might be an option.

As for 'Bäume', I suggest you look at this site for representing
German in the tengwar:
http://www.cinga.ch/langmaking/DTM/dtm.html

Other than that, the only things I can think of are that (A) the word
is Quenya, not Quenia, and (B) I'm not sure if -ees in 'trees' is
represented accurately.

- Matt

>
> Hello Elflings!
>
> I translated and transcribed just a few simple single words into
> Quenia/Sindarin and Tengwar (annatar). It would be great if you could
> just have a quick look at them and tell me if they are correct. For
> the translation I used http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/wordlists.htm
> and http://tolkien.cro.net/mearth/tolklang/sindarin.html and for the
> transcription http://tengwar.art.pl/tengwar/ott/start.php?l=en.
>
> http://junestar.net/lotr.pdf
>
> Line 1-3 are supposed to be "trees" in Quenia and Sindarin. Line 4 and
> 5 are transcriptions from English and German into Tengwar. Line 6 is
> (supposed to be) the number 9. Line 7-9 are versions of my "Elvish"
> name and line 10 is a transcription of my actual name.
>
> Thank you very much in advance!
> Regards,
> Julia
>

----- Original Message ----
From: S P <sp12@...>
To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 11:10:14 PM
Subject: RE: [elfling] Re: Hello, I am new here...



Based on what one knows (or can reconstruct with an
Occam's razor logic) so far, that would be either
_aphaded_ (given the stem _aphad-_ provided by
Tolkien in WJ:387) or _aphadad_ according to
materials by David Salo and Helge Fauskanger
(assuming the stem as #_aphada-_, probably on the
basis of the doubled-vowel root written by Tolkien on
mentioned quote, plus the nomen agentis, _aphadon_).

** According to the conjugation chart given by Tolkien in PE17:132, the gerund
of _car-_ is _cared_ (1st. sg. being _cerin_), whereas the gerund of _gala-_, an
a-stem, is _galod_ (1st sg. is _galon_). So if the 1sr sg. is still _aphadon_ at
this stage, the gerund would be *aphadod, I guess.

Shine on,

Thomas Ferencz

Let's discuss Eldarin languages - http://aglardh.middangeard.org.uk
Tolkien Wiktionary - http://eldarinwiki.middangeard.org.uk






      
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Not quite.  Attached please find some Tengwar help.  Start specifically on
page 32

I would spell it starting with ungwe.  anga make a sound like a J in joe or
G in george.  ungwe makes a sound like G in great or gold.

I made an image for you, using the preferable 'nt' combination.  Enjoy

  - Isaac

On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 6:10 PM, wmmgrant <wmmgrant@...> wrote:

>   So I'm thinking about getting a tattoo in Tengwar. I decided to use
> Sindarin. I'm using this website as my main resource:
> http://www.omniglot.com/writing/tengwar.htm. My last name is GRANT.
> I tried copying the image I have but it wouldn't work so right now I have:
>
> g: anga
> r: romen
> n: numen
> t: tinco
>
> and i am representing the a as the three dots above the numen.
> I saw the 'nt' represented as one symbol in some websites but could
> not find it consistently. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

TF wrote:

> So if the 1sr sg. is still _aphadon_ at this stage,
> the gerund would be *aphadod, I guess.

When was the pres 1 sg. _aphadon_ the first time? ;)

(OK, thanks a lot for the tidbit. ... Btw, did Tolkien
himself use the term "gerund" even? :-o)

Elhath

P.S. Even though it may "sound more familiar" to
read and conjugate _aphad-_ as _aphada-_, one
should in any case always keep in mind that the D
does not display the same suffix as in (e.g.)
_athrada-_, but in fact comes from the *root* (PAT).
_Aphad-_ might certainly belong to a similar class as
_gar(a)-_[1] and _lod(a)-_[2] (also _mel(a)-_?) and
hence display partial A-stem-like conjugation (e.g.
in the past tense) or more (certainly the more the
fewer verb classes one assumes as existing!).

An apparent "mirror image" is _gladh-_ in PM:359.

_______
[1] pres. 1 sg. _gerin_ (Etym:360), pa.t. 3 sg
_garant_ (VT45:14) -- note inf. written as "garo-",
just like "galo-" on p. 357
[2] Noldorin pres. 3 sg. _lhôd_ (VT45:29) ixt. entry
form "lhoda" in Etym:370
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Regarding _*aphadad_ / _*aphadod_, Tolkien seems to have liked
changing his mind (what else is new? xD):

In a rejected sketch of verbs (PE13:126) for early Noldorin
[Goloeði(e)l? cf. PE15:110], Tolkien gives the (pres.) infinitive of
_glathra_ to be _glathrad_. However, in the retained sketch (129), it
is _glathrod_. Moving onto _tangad-_ (131), we find _tangod_. In the
Nold. Dict., we see words that are said to be both infinitives and
nouns; one such is _eithlod_ (158), and probably _glabod_ (162), and
maybe _maithod_ (163), though the formation -od seems simply to be a
verbal noun with _tangod_ (165). _thírod_ on the same page could be an
infinitive, though.

Moving on to later sources, in Etym. we find _gawad_ and _hammad_,
though neither is said to be inf. or ger.; _harthad_ is found in SD
(late 40s?), and then _tírad_, _suilannad_, _suilad_ in the King's
Letter. We also find _aderthad_ in the 'Earliest Annals' of IV (early
30s), the Quenta Silm. of V (late 30s), and the Grey Annals of XI
(1950-1), as well as _orthad_ (Myths Transformed, X) of the late 50s.
There may be more examples of -ad that I can't remember.

Now, I see that you say PE17 has _galod_ — are there any examples of
-ad as well? From what I gathered, it looks like Tolkien originally
started with -ad (unless it's -od in the GL, which I haven't gotten
through checking yet), then switched to -od for a while, but in the
early 30s through the late 50s we find -ad. I _think_ I have read that
much of the material in PE17 is from the 60s (and therefore _galod_),
as I don't yet have it.

So IMO the choice between *aphadod and *aphadad depends on which point
in the timeline one is trying to emulate.

Sitha cirtha nuin bhlaithren nintha,
Matt Dinse


--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, TF <percival64@...> wrote:
>
> Based on what one knows (or can reconstruct with an
> Occam's razor logic) so far, that would be either
> _aphaded_ (given the stem _aphad-_ provided by
> Tolkien in WJ:387) or _aphadad_ according to
> materials by David Salo and Helge Fauskanger
> (assuming the stem as #_aphada-_, probably on the
> basis of the doubled-vowel root written by Tolkien on
> mentioned quote, plus the nomen agentis, _aphadon_).
>
> ** According to the conjugation chart given by Tolkien in PE17:132,
the gerund of _car-_ is _cared_ (1st. sg. being _cerin_), whereas the
gerund of _gala-_, an a-stem, is _galod_ (1st sg. is _galon_). So if
the 1sr sg. is still _aphadon_ at this stage, the gerund would be
*aphadod, I guess.
>
> Shine on,
>
> Thomas Ferencz

Hello,

I have been lurking in the wings for a bit, usually very daunted by
the much more advanced linguistic skills and knowledge of those who
post here.

My question or contribution to the discussions here is below so if you
don't want to read my intro please skip down to "Mannerly Discourse"

By way of introduction I guess I should say that about 40 years ago I
fell in love with the melodious words and world of Tolkien and have
loved it ever since. I have a natural and intuitive gift for languages
but by no means am I a linguist or good with studious grammatical
approaches to language. My eyes tend to blur over when I see word
lists and grammatical discussion of things like how words are lenited.

That said, I have been forcing myself into the various available texts
in search of ways to say really simple things.

Mannerly Discourse

I have not done an exhaustive search of all the wordlists,
dictionaries, etymologies, etc. that are out there... but I would like
to be able to be polite when writing simple dialog in "Sindarin".

I have been unable to find simple expressions such as thank you and
your welcome. Knowing Elves though, they are a very polite people.

So, probably someone else has done this and I did not find it.

In their absence, I made some up using other Sindarin words and would
like to run them by you or offer them for linguistic correction or
adoption as you all deem reasonable. If you have a correction I
welcome it.

I have other simple polite phrases but to start:

dae milui
thank you (lit. exceedingly kind)

nín geliran
your welcome (lit. my happy gift: gelir plus -an; sort of like my
pleasure)

mae govannen an amar nîn
welcome to my home

If you have a word for "please" could you please pass it along?

Dae milui,

Maerian

Welcome! If you haven't done so, google for 'Sindarin phrasebook'

Maerian wrote:
> dae milui
> thank you (lit. exceedingly kind)
>
Fans usually use 'le hannon'
> nín geliran
> your welcome (lit. my happy gift: gelir plus -an; sort of like my
> pleasure)
>
I don't understand the 'plus -an', where does it contribute. Also, as
you already know, _nin_ follows the noun

I kind of like Council of Elrond's "keep to the source"-ish idea,
_le eglerion_ (or _aglar le_) for thanking. Anwar!

Nowadays, one should also take notice of the root ALA
(PE17:146).[1] ... Those with a working PayPal account might
in so desiring even tell if there are other parts of speech
found next to the undoubtedly useful adjective _alwed_
"prosperous".

And how about _nín i 'ell_ for "the pleasure is mine".

Elhath

P.S. Expressing "please" (in post-LotR concept phases) is
certainly known for Quenya, see entry _ec-_ in Helge's own
Quenya-English wordlist. Until something better comes along,
one Sindarin neologism could be _mabedin_ (< PM:403) or
something utilizing a derivative of KAN (see PM:361-2).

_______
[1] http://tinyurl.com/yof8js
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Hi, I am new to the whole Tolkien's world of language but I wanted to
request other's feedback on a possible quenya's transliteration of the
plant "Asea Aranion" a.k.a. Athelas. Do you guys feel it is the right
transliteration of the phrase "Asea Aranion"? Take a look at the
webpage below for the image:

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/rochvelleth/aseaaranion.gif

Thank you for all your time,
Ruth

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "ruthkang802" <ruthkang802@...> wrote:

It looks fine to me; the only thing I might change (not sure if it's
necessary) would be to represent the S with _thúle_ instead of _silme_
because of its etymological derivation (*athaya?).

Glad to help,
Matt

>
> Hi, I am new to the whole Tolkien's world of language but I wanted to
> request other's feedback on a possible quenya's transliteration of the
> plant "Asea Aranion" a.k.a. Athelas. Do you guys feel it is the right
> transliteration of the phrase "Asea Aranion"? Take a look at the
> webpage below for the image:
>
> http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/rochvelleth/aseaaranion.gif
>
> Thank you for all your time,
> Ruth
>

Mae govannen, Roman!

Somehow I cannot access the pages you provided.

Are they temporarily under maintenance?

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Roman Rausch" <aranwe@...> wrote:
>
> I'd like to present you a new article called 'Historical phonologies
> of Ilkorin, Telerin and Noldorin around 1923'. Although later works by
> Tolkien himself on this subject seem to be in existence, this is a
> round-up and analysis specifically of the 1923 sources (published in
> PE13 & PE14).
> Ilkorin and Telerin appear here for the first time and while Telerin
> is quite similar to its later design, Early Ilkorin is perceivably
> Germanic-style and totally different from the Ilkorin of the
> Etymologies. Early Noldorin differs from later Noldorin especially
> when it comes to vowel mutations and can be seen following Welsh more
> closely.
> I have left out Early Qenya because there are already phonological
> discussions in the Qenya Lexicon and the Early Qenya Grammar; and also
> because I feel it is much more similar to the later conceptions than
> the other languages are.
>
> Comments and corrections are, as always, quite welcome.
>
> Link: http://sindanoorie.atspace.com/1923_phon.htm


Benson Fang

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "michiru" <michiru_benson@...> wrote:
> Mae govannen, Roman!
> Somehow I cannot access the pages you provided.
> Are they temporarily under maintenance?

It's working fine for me right now. If there is any trouble opening
the site it's most likely a temporary problem and you'll have to try
again some hours later. That's the payoff for having free webspace, sorry.

RR.

im thinking of getting a phrase in tengwar Quenya as a tattoo and have
looked on many websites to try and find four words; job,where,you and
start but alot of them contradict themseleves and seem unreliable.

if anyone can help out with this, please do so as i have ran out of
alternatives.  i understand you do not appreciate people asking for the
translation and i am sorry.  i just do not know where to turn for help
at this stage. if you know a reliable website which updates recently
(2008) then that would be a great help also.

a website which i found helpful
was 'www.uib.no/people/hnohf/worldists.htm' but i could not find the
required four words.

Thanks,
Chris

Looking at Mr Fauskanger's word-list, entry _Elendil_, I read that :

However, when the Edain used this name they intended it to mean
"Elf-friend", confusing elen "star" and elda "elf" (WJ:410).

But in WJ (pp. 410 or 377-78), I didn't find any statement of a
confusion between those two words. More likely, it seems to me that
Tolkien was talking about the misusing of elen (an "ancient general
word", i.e. for "Elf" in Sindarin, cf. WJ pp. 377-8) with the Q word
elen "star". Tolkien specifying in his Note 10 (WJ p. 410) that "It is
not surprising that the Edain, when they learned Sindarin, and to a
certain extent Quenya also, found it difficult to discern whether words
and names containing the element el referred to the stars or to the
Elfes", as, for example, with this difference between Q elen "star" and
S "ancient general word" elen "Elf".

What do you think about this ?

David Giraudeau



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Chris asked about the Quenya translation of four words. A good opportunity to
review some basic capabilities in the light of recent revelations.

> job

How about *_carna_ (*karnâ, cf. S. _mann_ "food") or *_caril_. (cf. Finnish
_tehtävä_, _syötävä_, et al. present passive participles in substantival use.)
Any more fitting morphemes out there?

Depending on the context, one might also use *_tarasse_;
http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/ppq/ppq.htm#LABOUR

Ales Bican suggests *_carma_ "work", however this is not "a post" but primarily
"a work made" (certainly fitting for one semantic allusion of English "job") --
http://www.elvish.org/elm/newwords.html

> where

If it's interrogative, as in "Where are you?" (in direct and probably also in
indirect questions), then *_masse_.

But if it is the relative "where" as in "Yon spread out the fields of Rohan
where the grass is tall", then _yasse_ (_yassen_ in reference to a plural).

> you

In case you are looking for the corresponding Quenya idiom of the English
impersonal "you", I'd give as an answer the indefinite pronoun _mo_ -- see two
examples of use under /Late sources/ in
http://www.phy.duke.edu/~trenk/elvish/quenya_phrase_index.html

The other "you's" appear most naturally in the form of a personal ending
suffixed to a verb (since Quenya is a null-subject language where you don't need
a separate pronoun that often):

SUBJECT (one who does the action) : _-tye_ (familiar address), _-lye_ (polite),
_-lde_ (plural, more than two), _-ste_ (dual, "you two")

OBJECT (target of action) after endings like above (model _mel-i-nye+s_) : †_-t_
(relic of the familiar/WJ:364), _-l_ (safest alternative), _-l_ (plural),
*_-ste_ ("you two", if exists [no distinct squeezed form, e.g. *-d-> *-r-?])

OBJECT as a separate pronoun (obligatory choice with the _nai_ formula) : _tye_
(familiar), _lye_ (polite), _le_ (plural), _let_ ("you two").

> start

Noun as in "The start of the race" = _yesse_ or _yesta_ (PE17:120).

Verb as in "I am starting to realize it now" = _yesta-_.

Discuss on.

Elhath
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You might want to continue reading Note 10 after that sentence: "This
is seen in the name _Elendil_, which became a favourite name among the
Edain, but was meant to bear the sense 'Elf-friend'. Properly in
Quenya it meant 'a lover or student of the stars', and was applied to
those devoted to astronomical lore. 'Elf-friend' would have been more
correctly represented by _Quen(den)dil_ or _Eldandil_."

- Matt Dinse :)

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "davidkiks" <davidkiks@...> wrote:

>Tolkien specifying in his Note 10 (WJ p. 410) that "It is
> not surprising that the Edain, when they learned Sindarin, and to a
> certain extent Quenya also, found it difficult to discern whether words
> and names containing the element el referred to the stars or to the
> Elfes", as, for example, with this difference between Q elen "star" and
> S "ancient general word" elen "Elf".
>
> What do you think about this ?
>
> David Giraudeau

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, S P <sp12@...> wrote:
>
>
> Chris asked about the Quenya translation of four words. A good
opportunity to review some basic capabilities in the light of recent
revelations.
>
> > job
>
> How about *_carna_ (*karnâ, cf. S. _mann_ "food") or *_caril_. (cf.
Finnish _tehtävä_, _syötävä_, et al. present passive participles in
substantival use.) Any more fitting morphemes out there?
>
> Depending on the context, one might also use *_tarasse_;
http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/ppq/ppq.htm#LABOUR
>
> Ales Bican suggests *_carma_ "work", however this is not "a post"
but primarily "a work made" (certainly fitting for one semantic
allusion of English "job") -- http://www.elvish.org/elm/newwords.html
>
> > where
>
> If it's interrogative, as in "Where are you?" (in direct and
probably also in indirect questions), then *_masse_.
>
> But if it is the relative "where" as in "Yon spread out the fields
of Rohan where the grass is tall", then _yasse_ (_yassen_ in
reference to a plural).
>
> > you
>
> In case you are looking for the corresponding Quenya idiom of the
English impersonal "you", I'd give as an answer the indefinite
pronoun _mo_ -- see two examples of use under /Late sources/ in
http://www.phy.duke.edu/~trenk/elvish/quenya_phrase_index.html
>
> The other "you's" appear most naturally in the form of a personal
ending suffixed to a verb (since Quenya is a null-subject language
where you don't need a separate pronoun that often):
>
> SUBJECT (one who does the action) : _-tye_ (familiar address), _-
lye_ (polite), _-lde_ (plural, more than two), _-ste_ (dual, "you
two")
>
> OBJECT (target of action) after endings like above (model _mel-i-
nye+s_) : †_-t_ (relic of the familiar/WJ:364), _-l_ (safest
alternative), _-l_ (plural), *_-ste_ ("you two", if exists [no
distinct squeezed form, e.g. *-d-> *-r-?])
>
> OBJECT as a separate pronoun (obligatory choice with the _nai_
formula) : _tye_ (familiar), _lye_ (polite), _le_ (plural), _let_
("you two").
>
> > start
>
> Noun as in "The start of the race" = _yesse_ or _yesta_ (PE17:120).
>
> Verb as in "I am starting to realize it now" = _yesta-_.
>
> Discuss on.
>
> Elhath
> _________________________________________________________________
> Explore the seven wonders of the world
> http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=7+wonders+world&mkt=en-
US&form=QBRE
>
Thank you very much for the effort and time you have put into helping
me, i appreciate it greatly. I have found the suggestions and links
to be an emormous help.

The phrase i am hoping to translate is 'the only job where you start
at the top, is digging a hole'
I now all the words translated although i am sure they're a few
mistakes in the words i have translated.
'i eresse carma yassel yesse se i inga, na sapa unque.'

If there are any mistakes, i ask of you to please push me in the
right direction.

Thanks for your hard work, appreciate it =)
Chris

Hi - I'm an undergraduate in linguistics at Dartmouth college conducting a pilot
study to
determine the profile of the "average" Tolkienian speaker (for the purposes of
this survey,
a Tolkienian speaker shall be defined as someone who self-identifies as someone
who
takes significant interest in the structures, grammars, vocabularies, or writing
systems of
any of Tolkien's invented languages; the person does not need to be fluent, nor
does s/he
need to be able to be proficient in both reading and writing; in short, if you
are reading
this on the Elfling Listserv, chances are you are a perfect subject for my
analysis). The
impetus for this survey is the extreme paucity of sociological or
sociolinguistic research
concerning the speakers of "constructed" languages that accompany popular
science-
fiction or fantasy works. Further, there is no widely available study of what a
Tolkienian
speaker looks like. The results of this pilot study will only be used for a term
paper. This
is not meant to be a statistically or scientifically accurate survey, but rather
a pilot study.
Please e-mail your responses to jberk AT dartmouth.edu by this Friday, May 9.

Questions:
1. How old are you?

2. Are you male or female?

3. Do you identify with a religion? If so, which?

4. Do you identify with an ethnicity? If so, which?

5. In what country did you spend a majority of your first 18 years? Was it
urban, suburban,
or rural? (if in the US, please specify state)

6. In what country do you currently reside? Is it urban, suburban, or rural? (if
in the US,
please specify state)

7. What is the highest level of education you completed? Do you have any formal
training
in linguistics? Are you still working on a degree? (if so, please specify as
below)
	 -High School
	 -College (please specify major)
	 -Masters (please specify area and subject of thesis)
	 -PhD (please specify area and subject of dissertation)
	 -Other (please explain)

8. What is your marital status?
	 -Single, never married
	 -Single, divorced
	 -Single, widowed
	 -Engaged
	 -Married (includes civil unions)
	 -Married, separated
	 -Other (please specify)

9. What is your native/first language?

10. What other "natural" (not "constructed") languages do you speak?

11. What other "constructed" languages do you speak (includes other languages
that
supplement science-fiction/fantasy works as well as languages created for social
purposes, like Esperanto)

12. What Tolkienian language do you consider yourself a "speaker" (as defined
above) of?
Describe your level proficiency – do you consider yourself fluent? Can you read
and/or
write?

13. How many of the Lord of the Rings books have you read? Which? How many of
the
movies have you seen? Which? What other Tolkien works (including those drafted
by his
son) have you read?

13. What was your first exposure to Tolkienian languages?
	 -Lord of the Rings (including The Hobbit) book(s)
	 -Another written Tolkien work
	 -Lord of the Rings movie(s)
	 -Other (please describe)

14. What motivated you to first read a Lord of the Rings book/see a Lord of the
Rings
movie/otherwise become exposed to Tolkienian languages?
	 -Leisure (includes anyone who wanted to read/watch/other purely for their own
enjoyment)
-Coercion (includes anyone who was forced to read/watch/other for school or by a
friend
or significant other) (if so, please specify)
-Intellectual (includes anyone who was first enamored with constructed languages
and
subsequently took Tolkienian languages as an object of study)
-Other (please explain)

15. What currently motivates your interest in Tolkienian languages?
-Enjoyment of the Lord of the Rings series and a feeling that knowledge of
languages
makes Tolkien's world more realistic or otherwise enjoyable
-Further coercion
-Interest in Tolkienian languages as part of a broader study of linguistics
-Other (please explain)

16. Where do you primarily use Tolkienian languages?
	 -In academic settings (this includes papers)
	 -Conventions
	 -Internet (includes this listserv)
	 -With friends
	 -Other (please describe)

17. What, if anything, do you find fascinating or particularly enjoy about
Tolkienian
languages?

18. Do you feel like the inclusion of the languages enhances Tolkien's works?

19. In what field is your primary profession? (if you are a student, just say
"student")

20. What other hobbies or interests do you have?

21.  Describe what you think of when you hear "average Tolkienian speaker."

22. Describe what you think of when you hear "average Klingon speaker."

From May through August, Cleveland Public Library will be presenting a
ground-breaking exhibit entitled "Esperanto, Elvish, and Beyond: The
World of Constructed Languages" at the Main Library, 325 Superior
Avenue East, Cleveland, Ohio.

The exhibit celebrates constructed languages and those who take part
in the art and craft of conlanging. Don Boozer, a former librarian in
the Literature Department at Cleveland Public Library and now the
statewide online reference services coordinator for Ohio, organized
the exhibit and wrote the majority of the text and captions. However,
conlangers from around the world graciously submitted photos and
biographies for the exhibit including Suzette Haden Elgin, Marc
Okrand, John Quijada, David J. Peterson, Doug Ball, Carsten Becker,
Måns Björkman, Sonja Elen Kisa, and many others. Proofreading was
kindly done by conlangers in Britain, Australia, Canada, and the
United States. The project was truly a collaborative effort
encompassing several continents. A companion booklet will also be
available at the exhibit: "A Conlanger's Bookshelf" compiled by Don
Boozer. A selection of conlanging resources is available at
http://del.icio.us/CPL_languages_imaginary.

Encompassing the entire exhibition corridor of the second floor of the
Main Library in downtown Cleveland, the display encompasses six large
cases,two smaller cases, and two flat panel cases. The six large cases
contain:

- "Conlangers' Inspiration: Languages & Linguistics" includes
information on phonology, affixes, word order, noun classes, and more.

- "Early Conlangs and Universal Languages: From Ancient Greece to
20th-Century America" highlights early conlangers and language
theorists like Plato (in "Cratylus"), Athenaeus of Naucratis (in "The
Deipnosophists"); St. Hildegarde of Bingen; Lewis Carroll; Jonathan
Swift; Edward Powell Foster and James Ruggles of Ohio; and more.

- "The Shakespeare of Conlangs: J.R.R. Tolkien" includes a timeline of
Tolkien's life and work; Quenya and Sindarin highlights; the
significance of his essay "A Secret Vice"; biographies of Helge
Fauskanger, Måns Björkman, and David Salo; and much more.

- "International Conlangs: Esperanto & Other Auxiliary Languages"
covers the development of Esperanto, a photo and biography of L.L.
Zamenhof, the history of Amikejo "the Esperanto nation that almost
was," two native-speaking Esperantists, some phrases and grammar, and
more.

- "The Warrior's Conlang: Klingon" highlights tlhIngan Hol a brief
introduction to the language and alphabet, photos and biographies of
Lawrence Schoen and Marc Okrand, the Klingon Language Institute, the
Klingon Translation Project, the "art" of Klingon cursing, and
much more.

- "Meet the Conlangers: The World-wide Community of Language Creators"
introduces viewers to Suzette Haden Elgin, Sonja Elen Kisa, David J.
Peterson, Mark "The Zompist" Rosenfelder, Sai Emrys, Carsten Becker,
and several other well-known conlangers as well as provides
information on the Conlang Flag, the Language Creation Conferences,
CONLANG-L, and more.

One smaller case at the beginning of the exhibit provides an
introduction to the subject for the public. The other smaller case
includes conlangs in films and fiction other than the "big three"
(Esperanto, Elvish, and Klingon).

One flat panel includes a Conlang Glossary and "The Conlanger's
Manifesto" (courtesy of David J. Peterson). The other includes a
collection of Babel Texts in various conlangs and English.

Parking is available in several garages and surface lots surrounding
the library. For more information, call the Literature Department at
Cleveland Public Library at 216-623-2881 or by contacting Don Boozer
at donaldboozer@.... Photographs of the exhibit will be
forthcoming and access to these will be posted in a subsequent posting
to CONLANG.

Chris wrote:

>The phrase i am hoping to translate is 'the only job where you
> start at the top, is digging a hole'
>
> I now all the words translated although i am sure they're a few
> mistakes in the words i have translated.
>
> 'i eresse carma yassel yesse se i inga, na sapa unque.'
>
> If there are any mistakes, i ask of you to please push me in the
> right direction.

A few things need to be observed.

_Eresse_ is a noun and maybe still an adverb as well, but to my
knowledge it has not been attested as an adjective (the word
class which English "only" belongs to when used to define a noun).

A person (subject or object) is not affixed to the relative
particle (_yasse_).

And you need a verb here for "start/it starts".

My current personal preference for "simplest grammatical
structure imaginable":

_I erya/erea carma yasse mo yesta ingallo ná lattasápe/-sapie._

_Ingallo_: ablative case which implies that there comes
movement proceeding away from that something, i.e. _inga_.

Elhath
_________________________________________________________________
Connect to the next generation of MSN Messenger 
http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/default.aspx?locale=en-us&source=wlmai\
ltagline

For those interested, here is the link to the photos on Flickr:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/26418663@N05/sets/72157604974306933/

Please feel free to comment.

I've included as much text as feasibly possible in the captions to the
pictures. You can see them a little better if you click the "All
Sizes" button and look at them large, but the text in the case is
still hard to read. Thus, you can look at the photos and then read the
captions. Case 5 (Tolkien) will most likely be of most interest to the
list.

I must say that this is one of the best things I've done in my library
career thus far, but I'll take blame for any errors anyone finds.

I hope you enjoy.

At last!
Elfica 4.1 on-line
download it at http://www.geocities.com/enrombell/welcome.htm

enrombell

Hi,

I have done a bit of research myself before i gave up and decided to
seek help. I recently downloaded the Quenya font as i was trying to
write a few sentences for a project. But i am stuck my name for the
report. I have looked at different transcribers and guides online on
letters and vowels, but i seem to get a slight difference with it.

The name i am trying to write is Pratik:

On the "Online Tengwar transcriber" for the quenya font it gives it as:
q7E1Tz (for the keyboard), whereas on tengwar scribe is gives it as:
q7E1Ta. Now i have looked at different guides and both the z and the a
seem to relate to a K if i am correct. But i needed help in selecting
the correct one for this context, the name Pratik is pronounced as the
french word Pratique, if it helps.

I hope someone can help, as its for a report on LOTR languages.

Thanks

Pratik

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Dinse" <tyrhael_idhraen@...>
wrote:
Hello!

Thank you for the answer. I will look into that.

(Sorry that it took me so long to reply, but I thought I would get an
email when someone answers, what I didn't, so, anyway, thank you.)

LG
Julia

>
> --- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "julialpz" <julialpz@> wrote:
>
> Hello, Julia:
>
> The main error I'd note is with the Yúlien Sindarin / Sindarin
> Classic, where you represent Y- as the Sindarin vowel y (ü) rather
> than the consonant it actually is. With the full mode, you could
> probably represent it by a long carrier; with the ómatehtar one yanta
> might be an option.
>
> As for 'Bäume', I suggest you look at this site for representing
> German in the tengwar:
> http://www.cinga.ch/langmaking/DTM/dtm.html
>
> Other than that, the only things I can think of are that (A) the word
> is Quenya, not Quenia, and (B) I'm not sure if -ees in 'trees' is
> represented accurately.
>
> - Matt

First of all, your message should be sent to
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript mailing list, not this one

Anyway, the letters you refer to are Calma (a) and Quesse (z). Both have
been used as K in various modes.

I am not sure about it, but I was led to the decision that Elvish modes
preferred to use Calma for K, while Mannish modes (in Gondor etc) used
Quesse. But both are correct, in their respective modes, provided that
you don't mix them up in the same text

pratik_buhecha wrote:
> On the "Online Tengwar transcriber" for the quenya font it gives it as:
> q7E1Tz (for the keyboard), whereas on tengwar scribe is gives it as:
> q7E1Ta. Now i have looked at different guides and both the z and the a
> seem to relate to a K if i am correct. But i needed help in selecting
> the correct one for this context, the name Pratik is pronounced as the
> french word Pratique, if it helps.

> A few things need to be observed.
>
> _Eresse_ is a noun and maybe still an adverb as well, but to my
> knowledge it has not been attested as an adjective (the word
> class which English "only" belongs to when used to define a noun).
>
> A person (subject or object) is not affixed to the relative
> particle (_yasse_).
>
> And you need a verb here for "start/it starts".
>
> My current personal preference for "simplest grammatical
> structure imaginable":
>
> _I erya/erea carma yasse mo yesta ingallo ná lattasápe/-sapie._
>
> _Ingallo_: ablative case which implies that there comes
> movement proceeding away from that something, i.e. _inga_.
>
> Elhath
> _________________________________________________________________
i dont want to seem ungrateful, but i do have a few questions as i
want to be able to understand the grammer, punctuation ETC. properly.

Because there is no way of saying 'only' the same way as the phrase,
can i ask what does erya/erea mean and how does those words work
within the phrase?

You said,'And you need a verb here for "start/it starts"'.  Is this
verb 'mo'?

Also i do not understand the part where you have have wrote
lattasape/-sapie.  Why have you put sapie on the end, what effect
does it have ?

Thank you so much for the correct translation, also sorry for the
questions, i would just like to understand it.
Thanks,
Chris

Chris wrote:

> Because there is no way of saying 'only' the same way as the phrase,

I'm not sure I'm with you here... but let's observe how an adjective
works in the next segment.

> can i ask what does erya/erea mean and how does those words work
> within the phrase?

As I said, they represent the adjective, "only(, sole, single)" which
defines the word _carma_ "work"; like in essence saying, "this is the
sole [work]...".

You could use either one, _erya_ or _erea_, as far as I can tell.

> You said, 'And you need a verb here for "start/it starts"'. Is this
> verb 'mo'?

_Mo_ is the singular-form impersonal pronoun which Tolkien used in
impersonal phrases like this (in its place English would have "you" or
"one") -- phrases which help in the giving of background by describing
an action or event in certain conditions from a generalizing viewpoint (so
there is no *particular* "you" or person to whom the reference is made).

The verb (as mentioned in my original reply) is _yesta-_. (A verb is
the "action word" in a sentence -- the action that happens or is carried
out.)

> Also i do not understand the part where you have have wrote
> lattasape/-sapie. Why have you put sapie on the end, what effect
> does it have ?

_lattasaape_ or _lattasapie_ -- word stress on the last /a/ in both words,
btw.

Making the predicative[1] a compound (literally, "hole-digging") like this
by combining the words "to dig" and "hole" together is inarguably the
simplest-looking solution. "Of a" (even in reference to an recipient/object,
as in _Eruhantale_ "thanking of Eru") is often rendered by a compound in
Quenya and like languages. One needn't go more exotic (inflection-wise)
than Old English in order to encounter extensive use of it.

I fear that without _oosanwe-centa_[2] I may not be able to explain these
things more clearly.

Elhath

_______
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predicative_%28adjectival_or_nominal%29
[2] http://middangeard.org.uk/eldarinwiki/index.php?title=%C3%93sanwe
_________________________________________________________________
Explore the seven wonders of the world
http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=7+wonders+world&mkt=en-US&form=QBRE

Mildly off-topic, but since I haven't heard back from Lisa (and she might just
be busy; I only sent my initial inquiry on Friday) I thought I would try here.



In Lisa's article on this page
(http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/9902/runegond.html), she displays
charts of the Runes of Gondolin, but it is unclear from the accompanying text
whether these pages were something she or perhaps Doug Nolan transcribed or if
this is an actual facsimile of Tolkien's original hand written page. Anyone have
any idea? Thanks in advance for any help you all might be able to render.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I haven't seen Lisa Star around for years now, and even years ago when
I tried a number of different email addresses she's used some months
apart, I never received a reply. I have heard a similar tale from some
others - I am not sure whether she has simply left the Arkastarin
venue, but it does not surprise me to hear she did not respond to your
email either. It would be nice to be proven wrong, though!

Now, moving onto the topic of the Gondolinic Runes: the page given on
the site you linked to is not a facsimile of Tolkien's original page,
but rather something Lisa Star herself transcribed into a more
calligraphic form. Compare how she wrote out herself the examples for
the tengwar numerals rather than reproduce what was given in Quettar.

The original facsimile of the G. runes by Tolkien, _and_ a script
version of them which she doesn't represent or mention, can be found
in the section entitled 'Early Runic Documents' in issue #15 of the
journal 'Parma Eldalamberon'. Apparently the runic facsimile (but not
the script) is also found and analyzed / commented upon in Mythlore
#69-70, but as I do not have those Mythlore issues I cannot compare.

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Charles Gadda" <cagadda@...> wrote:
>
> Mildly off-topic, but since I haven't heard back from Lisa (and she
might just be busy; I only sent my initial inquiry on Friday) I
thought I would try here.
>
> In Lisa's article on this page
(http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/9902/runegond.html), she
displays charts of the Runes of Gondolin, but it is unclear from the
accompanying text whether these pages were something she or perhaps
Doug Nolan transcribed or if this is an actual facsimile of Tolkien's
original hand written page. Anyone have any idea? Thanks in advance
for any help you all might be able to render.
>

> In Lisa's article on this page ([...]), she displays charts of the
> Runes of Gondolin, but it is unclear from the accompanying
> text whether these pages were something she or perhaps
> Doug Nolan transcribed or if this is an actual facsimile of
> Tolkien's original hand written page. Anyone have any idea?
I do not know for a positive fact; however, I would say it's pretty unlikely
this is an actual facsimile. First of all, from what I know of Tolkien's
handwriting, this specimen does not look like it to me (though I've been wrong
once or twice). Second, the quality of the paper and ink look much too
well-preserved to me to be original. Third, the illustration at the bottom of
the second page doesn't look like it was made by Tolkien. My guess is it's a
copy/transcription.
Just my two cents. Anyone else?
Jason