At 15:24 27.9.2000 +0200, Ryszard Derdzinski wrote:
>Since 'floor' is a surface made by men (I don't know any English
>dictionary that states that 'floor' is the same as 'ground') its meaning is
>distinct from 'ground' - the solid surface of the earth; firm or dry land
>(see Webster Dictionary).

But the floor may well be made of earth!

/ B.Philip Jonsson B^)>
--
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"If a language is a dialect with an army and a navy,
of what language, pray, is Basque a dialect?" (R.A.B.)

Thanks for the suggestions for Puey: Pyu'we:on, Piuve, Piuveo(n), Piuvo, and
Piuvi.  Since "Puey" is no doubt related to words like "Phew!" or "Pee-yoo,"
interjections meaning something like "stink, smell bad," do we have any
Elvish words for "stink?"  If so we could add some diminutive/nickname
suffix to it (or maybe just -i) to create an Elvish Name that means
something like "Puey."  However, since I doubt that Elves ever stank (or
maybe that the word has not survived), does anyone know the word for "stink"
in any other Middle-earth language?  Surely the Orcs and Dwarves had lots of
words for stinking.

By the way, my nickname comes from my Grandpa.  The name functions somewhat
like a secret tribal Dwarvish name.  So don't try any spells on me.  I'm
watching you.

-- James (?? Piuvi ??)
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>
>By the way, Happy New Year (Saturday).
>
>-David Kiltz

'Xcuse me, but happy new WHAT year? What Calendar are you refering to?

                                                    Andreas
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> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> "If a language is a dialect with an army and a navy,
> of what language, pray, is Basque a dialect?" (R.A.B.)

Well, for many old Spanish politicians... it's a jargon ;))))

Eleder
Bosque Verde

I'm trying to translate some phrases into quenya but I have a problem with
expressing a verb that is being an object of another verb. I know the case of
_man cenuva lumbor ahosta_, but this fits only for verb of sensual perception. I
don't know if I would be able to translate the situations into english properly,
so maybe the czech members of this list could help more aptly.
I'd be very glad if anyone tells me how to translate this samples:

EN: I'm going sleeping
CZ: Jdu spaat
..(substantival ending with infinitive? _autanye fumienna_?)

EN: Come, eat and drink to the party
CZ: Pojdte, jiist a piit na slavnost
..(here maybe _matie ar sucie_?)

EN: Come with me (to) pace and look at the stars
CZ: Pojd se se mnou projiit a podiivat na hvezdy

EN: I want to sleep
CZ: Chci spaat
..(_merenye fumie_?)

TNX for help

elya meelala Calwen

Hello elflingers!

I would like to tell you about a project I have been working on for
some time now: The Active Worlds Elvish School.

What I am trying to do here is to make a virtual community where
people will study Tolkien's languages, discuss various find, etc. I
said "virtual" because this study will take place in a 3D environment
called Active Worlds, where dfferent users interact in the form of
"avatars".

If this sounds interesting to any of you, please send comments to
nukem-d@... or visit the Elvish School website at
http://members.spree.com/sip/eledonkweti/elfschool/elf.htm

Hoping to hear from you soon,
Dima Leshchinskii.

"Helge K. Fauskanger" wrote:

> > **Helge surely used [laita] correctly, I think. (Still you must remember
> that he knows much more than we do : )
>
> When it comes to actually writing Quenya texts, I think Ales and I are on
> pretty much the same level...lately, Ales has certainly been more
> productive than I have.

**Not much. In fact I have not written anything new recently --
until today -- today I wrote a short poem. Maybe you will like it.
Any suggestions of course are welcome.


tyalie

inye cenne hendu alte acala
i caalenen calima nulla-laica
inye hlarne i peu titte alala
ar i lamma nee tana linda-aica

palle ar vanye ner i hendu pante
alassenen enquanter oore inya
ve i limbat helyanwesse ner cante
ar naltanta nee voro nisse vinya

ar i ooma lalala -- lisse, taara
-- cirne tere vista ve mique moica
lastanen i lamma ar namnen maara
ten i lalale nee, ai, tana poica

cennen hiina titta, i vanya vende
i caale lanyaina mi erya anta
alasse vorima alta nisse rende
ter anarinqua ree mi lasselanta

*****

_tyalie_
a play

_inye cenne hendu alte acala_
I saw great eyes shine
_i caalenen calima nulla-laica_
with the bright dark-green light
_inye hlarne i peu titte alala_
I heard the little lips laugh
_ar i lamma nee tana linda-aica_
and the sound was that musical/beautiful-sharp

[_peu_ "the two lips" (VT39:11); _lala-_ "laugh" (PM:359)]

_palle ar vanye ner i hendu pante_
wide and fair were the open eyes
_alassenen enquanter oore inya_
with joy [they] filled my heard
_ve i limbat helyanwesse ner cante_
like the drops in rainbow [they] were shaped
_ar naltanta nee voro nisse vinya_
and their reflection is still new in me

[*_inya_ "my, mine"; *_ner_ "were"; _nalta_ "glittering reflection"
(PM:347)]

_ar i ooma lalala -- lisse, taara_
and the voice laughing -- sweet, high
_-- cirne tere vista ve mique moica_
-- sailed through the air like a gentle kiss
_lastanen i lamma ar namnen maara_
I listened [to] the sound and I judged [it] good
_ten i lalale nee, ai, tana poica_
for the laughter was, oh, that pure

[_miqe_ "a kiss" (QL:61); _moica_ "gentle, soft" (GL:58);
_nam-_ "judge" (VT41:13,17); _ten_ "for" (FS) *_lalale_
"laughing, laughter"]

_cennen hiina titta, i vanya vende_
I saw a little child, the fair girl
_i caale lanyaina mi erya anta_
the light weaved in her face
_alasse vorima alta mir nye rende_
[she] sowed a great continual joy into me
_ter anarinqua ree mi lasselanta_
through a sunny day in the fall

[*_erya_ "her, hers"; *_nye_ "me"; _rende_ pa.t. of _rer-_
"sow"; *_anarinqua_ "sun-full, sunny"]


Ales Bican

--
**Varför älskar jag Elin? (from Agnes' diary; _Fucking Amal_)

>Cheseholm, I suspect related to KaseHeim or like. Home of the Cheese?
>Not all the Germanic elements of French were taken out from the days
>when they spoke Frankish Germanic..

The two renditions I found for Chisholm were "Place(field/plain) good for
cheese making" and "well-watered plain".  The second would be easiest to
render into Q.  Maarnando "A good watered plain"...it doesn't sound
grammatically correct, so it might be best just to use Nando" watered
plain".  As far as translating the first rendition, I have less than any
idea how to do it and would appreciate any help...

>I suspect the Gamekeepers was related more to the Defender, since
>gamekeepers often also did other work, such as defending. Much like the
>Rangers of England/Scotland, who protected from poachers, but also
>invading armies..

I had the same thought, that it was more than what the word implied.
Perhaps a better rendition into Q. would be Raavavarno.  Raava "wilderness"
Varno "protector"(from varya- to protect), or Tavasvarno  Tavas"woodland"
Varno"protector"

> Not sure about Bentley, it mean bent lay? Now what
>does Lae mean, not sure..

Bentley means "bent grass meadow" or "clearing in the woods with bent
grass".  The first would be easiest to translate Saralairon.  Sara"bent
grass"  Laire "meadow"(at least I think so...).   Again, I'm a beginner so
my renditions may be waaaayyyy off, if they are please let me know so I can
learn *g*.

Ben

>Excuse me to disagree, but I think that the relation between the shining
>and the
>light is exactly the one to be expressed by the instrumental.

Yes, but not in the sentence put forward. I think it would be no compliment
using the instrumental (the idea must be to say pretty much the same as
_hendulyat (nar) vanima_). The eyes in question would be beautiful even if
there had never been any silmarils. The shining of the eyes is not
*dependant* on the silmarils. The shining and the light arer 2 Seperate
events. They can only be linked by an instrumental if it is also an
adverbial case (a sort of respective) as David Klitz suggested.

Greg
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>  Since "Puey" is no doubt related to words like "Phew!" or "Pee-yoo,"
>interjections meaning something like "stink, smell bad," do we have any
>Elvish words for "stink?"  If so we could add some diminutive/nickname
>suffix to it (or maybe just -i) to create an Elvish Name that means
>something like "Puey."

There is a noun meaning "odour" (in a neutral sense): "holme". Maybe you could
cal yourself "Holmea"?

Lukas

I think he is refering to the Jewish Calendar.
Namárie
//David "Meldon" Grimfors


-----Original message-----


>
>By the way, Happy New Year (Saturday).
>
>-David Kiltz

'Xcuse me, but happy new WHAT year? What Calendar are you refering to?

                                                    Andreas

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On Sat, 30 Sep 2000, James McCleary wrote:

> Subject: [elfling] Do Elves Stink?

*L*

> Thanks for the suggestions for Puey: Pyu'we:on, Piuve, Piuveo(n), Piuvo, and
> Piuvi.  Since "Puey" is no doubt related to words like "Phew!" or "Pee-yoo,"
> interjections meaning something like "stink, smell bad," do we have any
> Elvish words for "stink?"  If so we could add some diminutive/nickname

As always, my first port of call is Ardalambion.

Perfect:

   THUS- Q. _saura_ "foul, evil-smelling, putrid"

However, this is the same root as "Sauron", along with the overtones of
World Domination, so:

   N~OL- Q. _holme_ "odour"

...better.

Diminuitive endings, -lle, -ince, and possibly -il

As always, I never know for sure how to tie these up! But here are my
suggestions (with opinions):

Holmelle (feminine-sounding), Holmince (too long), Holmil, Holmi. These
last two sound pretty good.

Buy HoMe 5 - it's got to be worth it!

The choice is yours!

cheers,
Richard F. Smit

Hello folks,

I'm having trouble with putting "chosen one" - with Hammer Horror
overtones - into Quenya.

So far, I have _nahostano_ "hoo-hosta-na-no", with this curious little
derivation:

   chosen: "to choose" is a synonym of "to select" - which has roots
meaning "aside-gather". So we can look at Helge's Quenya Wordlist, search
for "away", and get _hoo-_ = "away, from, from among". Perfect.

   "gather" is _hosta_, with past participle/adjectival (is that what I
want?), this becomes _hostana_

So now I have a word, _hoohostana_ - chosen, selected. I want this to be
"chosen one", so I pop a slightly-agentive personal ending on:
_hoohostanano_.

Very odd sounding. (If only I was alliterating aitches or ens)

Whaddythink?

(sources: Ardalambion + ETYM)

cheers,
Richard F. Smit

James McCleary:
> Thanks for the suggestions for Puey: Pyu'we:on, Piuve, Piuveo(n),
> Piuvo, and Piuvi.  Since "Puey" is no doubt related to words
> like "Phew!" or "Pee-yoo," interjections meaning something like
> "stink, smell bad," do we have any Elvish words for "stink?"
> If so we could add some diminutive/nickname suffix to it (or
> maybe just -i) to create an Elvish Name that means something
> like "Puey."  However, since I doubt that Elves ever stank (or
> maybe that the word has not survived), does anyone know the word
> for "stink" in any other Middle-earth language?  Surely the Orcs
> and Dwarves had lots of words for stinking.
>
> By the way, my nickname comes from my Grandpa. The name functions
> somewhat like a secret tribal Dwarvish name.  So don't try any
> spells on me.  I'm watching you.

Rather weird question... I don't know many persons who would
enjoy being called "stinker". But well, Orcs and many devices
by Melkor did stink, so we certainly have several words in the
corpus that could fit in meaning, e.g. _saura_ "foul,
evil-smelling, putrid" [Ety/393], _yelwa_ "loathsome" [Ety/355]
(which could be used for instance with _n~olme_ "odour"
[Ety/378], etc.). Sort of a pun, you can also use _piuta_
"spit" [Ety/382] as a word having a sound similar to your
name...

But actually, I wish there should be less questions about
devising Elvish names on ELFLING. From time to time, it is
acceptable. But it has little interest excepted for the
concerned person, and truly no linguistic interest. I am
certainly not the one do decide what should appear on
ELFLING, though. I am just feeling however that we are
somewhat leaving the field of "Elvish Linguistic Studies"
when such questions tend to become too frequent.

Didier.

Hi, all,

	 Didier's comment/complaint on topicality is the third one that has
been posted to the list lately. The other two were from the same person,
and since the posts consisted entirely of the comment/complaint (and one of
them was quite rude, to boot), they were not sent to the list.

	 I hope everyone here knows that my personal email box is quite open
to moderation concerns, and always has been. Please bring such concerns
directly to me. I will listen and respond. I promise. Please try to refrain
from "backseat moderating" (of which Didier's post is an excellent
example!) and please try not to get impatient with me.

	 I DO NOT REPLY to moderation concerns sent to the list instead of
to me, largely because all my moderation mail is filtered into a separate
mailbox, and is either approved immediately or deleted. I do try my best to
respond to mail sent directly to me (although I slip up now and then, and
I'm sorry for it; I know I owe email to one person, and possibly two or
three).

	 I do not post moderation concerns to the list (Didier's being an
exception to my general practice), because I want the list to discuss
Tolkien's languages, not get into long tangents on list moderation. If
there is concern that this makes the moderation process too "private," I
will be happy to open an elfling-d list where such concerns can be publicly
aired *off the Elfling list itself*. Send me email if you would like to see
such a list.

On topicality:

	 I absolutely do not want to become the Topic Police; the guidelines
I have written for Elfling (http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea/elfling.html)
should make that abundantly clear. Playing Topic Police is no fun, not for
me and not for the list. Moreover, I don't especially approve of
narrow-focus lists; they're boring after a while (and they tend to devolve
into "That's not on-topic!" "Is too!" "Is not!" "Is too!" which I find
utterly gruesome). A little topic drift lends variety.

	 If more subscribers find themselves disturbed by topic drift,
however, I won't have a great deal of choice but to don a badge. I think
that a little self-restraint will make Topic Policing unnecessary, and I
hope that posters will exercise self-restraint in posting, and readers will
exercise self-restraint by tolerating the occasional off-topic conversation.

	 Especially when the list is extremely busy, please try to observe
the following guidelines:

	 - Avoid one-line replies. These are best sent directly to the
poster you are responding to.
	 - Before you hit the "send" button, ask yourself whether your post
is on-topic. If it isn't, wait a day before posting, and see if you still
have the same urge to post.

	 Regarding names: Name construction in Tolkien's languages
absolutely IS on-topic. Creating compound words (typical of name
construction) is not a transparent practice, and therefore seems worth
discussing.

	 I hope this helps clarify my "moderation metric" a little. I'm
sorry if what has happened on Elfling lately has presented a problem for
anyone, and I hope we can all help make Elfling an enjoyable list to read
and post to.

Dorothea

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dorothea Salo       <*>           |"He querido mas vivir en mi peque~a casa,
dorothea@...             |exenta, y se~ora, que no en sus ricos
http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea |palacios, sojuzgada y cativa."_Celestina_

Well, I suspect the Elves did have a word for it, it is natural, but
they also may have had another word for a like thing that was not
natural, like Mordor/Angband and like.. Evil Stink vs natural good
stink?

Mike



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> I'd be very glad if anyone tells me how to translate this samples:

i might of course err, and there are people with better knowledge than me,
but here is my personal humble oppinion:

> EN: I'm going sleeping
> CZ: Jdu spaat
> ..(substantival ending with infinitive? _autanye fumienna_?)

hm...as i understand it, it means "i am departing to the Sleep" (=sleeping
realm). If you prefer a "going" meaning rather that "leaving", i suggest you
use _lelyan_ or _linnan_, and i'd use the dative _fumien_ to show that you
go to sleep (purpose) and not to the realm (place).

> EN: Come, eat and drink to the party
> CZ: Pojdte, jiist a piit na slavnost
> ..(here maybe _matie ar sucie_?)

as i understand it, eat and drink are imperative, no?? i'd use the
imperative forms _mata ar suca_

> EN: Come with me (to) pace and look at the stars
> CZ: Pojd se se mnou projiit a podiivat na hvezdy

according to the MD phrase book:
Come outside with me and look at the stars.  = Q Nai hótuluvalve i
meneltannar tirien.

> EN: I want to sleep
> CZ: Chci spaat
> ..(_merenye fumie_?)

ah.. here is an idea... i am of those that consider the Merin sentence as
true... analysis of this sentence shows us that verbs like "want, wish" or
even "hope, believe, think" etc govern an "object phrase" which begins with
_sa_ "that" (if you don't know the sentence, it goes like _merin sa
haryalye..._ "i wish that you have..."). According to this, i would use
_merin/merenye sa fumin_

But i found the verb _miina_ meaning "wish to go to a place, desire to go in
some direction". you can use _minanye fumien_ to denote "i want to go to
sleep"

> TNX for help

i hope i was useful, and this time none will show up to correct me!! :P

> elya meelala Calwen

>Yes, but not in the sentence put forward. I think it would be no compliment
>using the instrumental (the idea must be to say pretty much the same as
>_hendulyat (nar) vanima_). The eyes in question would be beautiful even if
>there had never been any silmarils. The shining of the eyes is not
>*dependant* on the silmarils. The shining and the light arer 2 Seperate
>events. They can only be linked by an instrumental if it is also an
>adverbial case (a sort of respective) as David Klitz suggested.
>
>Greg
>
What, exactly, is an "respective"? Are there any real-world languages that
have case called "respective", and if yes what function(s) do it fulfil?

                                                   Andreas
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>>Excuse me to disagree, but I think that the relation between the shining
>>and the
>>light is exactly the one to be expressed by the instrumental.
>
>Yes, but not in the sentence put forward. I think it would be no compliment
>using the instrumental (the idea must be to say pretty much the same as
>_hendulyat (nar) vanima_). The eyes in question would be beautiful even if
>there had never been any silmarils. The shining of the eyes is not
>*dependant* on the silmarils. The shining and the light arer 2 Seperate
>events. They can only be linked by an instrumental if it is also an
>adverbial case (a sort of respective) as David Klitz suggested.


I beg your pardon, Greg, but I think you are not right. I will try to put my
reasons forward as clear as I can...
1) The shining of the eyes is indeed independent on the simarils.
2) But not so on the LIGHT of silmarils: that light is what makes the eyes
(formal causality) shine.
3) "The light of the silmarils" needn't be taken so strict; you can take it e.g.
"the light with the QUALITY of the light of silmarlis" - the same usage as if
you said "he has a lion's strength" (I do not know if this idiom is in English,
in Czech at least it is). You mean that the strength is of the quality usually
found in lions.
4) This would make jointly possible the points 1 and 2, i.e. it explains, how
can the light of the silmarils be independent on the silmarils.
5) But the author may have wanted not to say that the light of the eyes is LIKE
the light of the silmarils, but, with a poet's licence, and for the sake of
compliment, that it is THE VERY light of the silmarils (for the similar reason
Czech hockey fans called Hasek "god", not "like a god"). You could complain
then, that this is ontologically impossible, because the light of one's eyes is
not identical with the light of anything else, you can put forth many good
philosophical reasons for your claim - i.e. you could blame the poet of bad
philosophy, but you couldn't blame the poet of bad grammar, I think. For with
the means the grammar posses (the instrumental case) he expresses exactly what
he wants to express, no matter it is a hypoerbola and in fact a nonsense.

Lukas

-----Pùvodní zpráva-----
Od: Richard F. Smit <r.f.smit@...>


>Hello folks,
>
>I'm having trouble with putting "chosen one" - with Hammer Horror
>overtones - into Quenya.
>
>So far, I have _nahostano_ "hoo-hosta-na-no", with this curious little
>derivation:
>
>  chosen: "to choose" is a synonym of "to select" - which has roots
>meaning "aside-gather". So we can look at Helge's Quenya Wordlist, search
>for "away", and get _hoo-_ = "away, from, from among". Perfect.


Is not there the verb "cilta-" "to chose"  (just out of my memory) ? Then "the
choosen one" could be "Erciltano" - Er "one", "the only" (as far as I remember),
"ciltana" passive participle, "-o" masculine ending.

Lukas

In my opinion in the cases described you should use the simple aorist
infinitive, because the -ie infinitive is rather a gerund, and I think it should
be used mostly if the verb is in other case than nominative or accusative: such
as "termaruva enyalien" "shall stand in order to recall" (dative).
I think "autanye fumienna" is certainly wrong, because "sleeping" is the direct
object, that is it is in the accusative in fact, not in allative. The accusative
would be "fumie", like the nominative, but I thing that better is the aorist
infinitive (fume? - to know vocabulary is not my virtue).

There are possible cases that are even more problematic than that of yours one
can think of many ways of translation of, and not all of the ways probably
possible in Quenya. Of "I (am) start(ing) to speak" in Greek e. g. there are
three ways how to say it: using the infinitive, using the present participle,
and using the verbal noun in genitive (archomai legein, archomai legoon,
archomai tou logou). Yet more problematic is it with "hear" "see" or "know": one
would like to know when to use "accusative plus infinitive" and when "acusative
with participle", or whether such constructions are even possible in Quenya...

>EN: I want to sleep
>CZ: Chci spaat
>..(_merenye fumie_?)


Could it in Quenya be expressed impersonally (as usual in Czech: "chce se mi
spát"? "mere nin fume"?

Lukas

On Monday, October 2, 2000, at 07:42 PM, Richard F. Smit wrote:

> I'm having trouble with putting "chosen one" - with Hammer Horror
> overtones - into Quenya.
>
> So far, I have _nahostano_ "hoo-hosta-na-no", with this curious little
> derivation:
>
In HoME we have _essecilme_ "namechoosing". That wd yield a root _cil-_ "to
choose". So chosen wd be _cilina_ or _cilda/cilla_. Made into a masculine noun
_Cildon_ or the like. Hope that helps.
-David Kiltz

>Is not there the verb "cilta-" "to chose"  (just out of my memory) ? Then "the
>choosen one" could be "Erciltano" - Er "one", "the only" (as far as I
remember),
>"ciltana" passive participle, "-o" masculine ending.


Or the participle should be "ciltaina"? I do not know - if so, then we get
"Erciltaino". It souns better to me, it has a better rhythm...

Lukas

> Hello folks,
>
> I'm having trouble with putting "chosen one" - with Hammer Horror
> overtones - into Quenya.

Your suggestion could work, but we have _cilme_ as a verbal noun "choice"
in MR somewhere, suggesting a verbal root *_cil-_. Primitive Elvish *kilnaa
"chosen" > Q *_cilda_ or *_cilla_, personalized *_Cildo_ or _Cillo_?
Especially the latter does have certain sinister "overtones" to an
English-speaking person (especially if you adopt the spelling conventions
Fredrik Ström advocated on TolkLang the other day: K instead of C...!)

- HF

Lukas Novak wrote:

> >So far, I have _nahostano_ "hoo-hosta-na-no", with this curious little
> >derivation:
> >
> >  chosen: "to choose" is a synonym of "to select" - which has roots
> >meaning "aside-gather". So we can look at Helge's Quenya Wordlist, search
> >for "away", and get _hoo-_ = "away, from, from among". Perfect.
>
> Is not there the verb "cilta-" "to chose"  (just out of my memory) ?

**There is, but it is NOT given by Tolkien in any published source!
It is coined by a Tolkien fan, I think by Helge Fauskanger.  But it
is a good word and I would use it rather than _hoohosta-_.
> Then "the
> choosen one" could be "Erciltano" - Er "one", "the only" (as far as I
remember),
> "ciltana" passive participle, "-o" masculine ending.

**I would say simply _Ciltaino_ or _Ciltainon_ "the chosen one"
(cf. _Ancalimon_ "the brightest one"). I think *_ciltaina_ "chosen"
is better than *_ciltana_, since we have _hastaina_ "marred".


Ales Bican

--
**Varför älskar jag Elin? (from Agnes' diary; _Fucking Amal_)

junni@... wrote:

> EN: I'm going sleeping
> CZ: Jdu spaat
> ..(substantival ending with infinitive? _autanye fumienna_?)

**I would say _autan(ye) fumien/lorien_ "I go away in order
to sleep/slumber" (_lor-_ "slumber") i.e. "I go away for
sleeping".

> EN: Come, eat and drink to the party
> CZ: Pojdte, jiist a piit na slavnost
> ..(here maybe _matie ar sucie_?)

**I would say _a tule macien ar sucien merendenna_
"come for eating and drinking to a feast" (_merende_
"feast").

> EN: Come with me (to) pace and look at the stars
> CZ: Pojd se se mnou projiit a podiivat na hvezdy

**I would say _a tule yo nye vantien ar tirien eleni_
"come with me for walking and watching stars" (_yo_
"together with", *_nye_ "me").

> EN: I want to sleep
> CZ: Chci spaat
> ..(_merenye fumie_?)

**I would say _merin fume/lore_ "I want to sleep".

**Lukas' suggestion _mere nin fume_ as "[it] wants
me to sleep" ("chce se mi spat") is interesting, but I think
_mer-_ is not impersonal. I would suggest rather
_ore nin fume/lore_ "I feel an urge/wish/deside to sleep"
based on _(h)ore nin karitas_ "I feel an urge/wish/desire
to do it" (VT41:13).


**We have _Vanda sina termaruva Elenna.nooreo alcar
enyalien_ in Cirion's Oath which could be translated as
_this oath will be fixed for recalling glory of Elenna-land".
Therefore I would translate the first sentences like this.

**We have _ava kare_ "don't do it". That is why I would
tranlate the last sentence as I did.


Ales Bican

--
**Varför älskar jag Elin? (from Agnes' diary; _Fucking Amal_)

>
> Very odd sounding. (If only I was alliterating aitches or ens)
>
> Whaddythink?

That you have _cil-_ for "choose"... (isolated from _essecilme_,
"namechoosing", and you can take from that _Cilmaino_, perhaps :)

Or simply _Cilmaina_... I don't think weather it's always imperative
to put on the name-ending "-o"; we have examples of adjectives
being used as apelatives without changing their ending, as _A
vanimar!_ and others...

My turn: what do you think?

Eleder
Bosque Verde

> > EN: I'm going sleeping
> > CZ: Jdu spaat
> > ..(substantival ending with infinitive? _autanye fumienna_?)
>
> hm...as i understand it, it means "i am departing to the Sleep"
> (=sleeping realm). If you prefer a "going" meaning rather that
> "leaving", i suggest you use _lelyan_ or _linnan_, and i'd use the
> dative _fumien_ to show that you go to sleep (purpose) and not to the
> realm (place).

I think _lelyan fumienna_ would be ok... It's true it can be better to
use the dative, being the "small version" of the allative, but I'd
understand that _lelyan fumien_ is "I go (there) TO sleep, in order
to sleep". This is a small difference... perhaps it's better just to say
the simple future, _fumuvan_, and leave out this problematic form :)

> > EN: Come with me (to) pace and look at the stars
> > CZ: Pojd se se mnou projiit a podiivat na hvezdy
>
> according to the MD phrase book:
> Come outside with me and look at the stars.  = Q Nai hótuluvalve i
> meneltannar tirien.

I think it's better simply _tula yo inye seeresse ar tira i elenin_,
"come with me in peace and look at the stars"

> which begins with _sa_ "that" (if you don't know the sentence, it goes
> like _merin sa haryalye..._ "i wish that you have..."). According to
> this, i would use _merin/merenye sa fumin_

But normally the personal forms are not used when the subject is
the same of the principal sentence... "I want that I go"...
definitively, I don't like it :)

I thin, since we have the _polin quete_ example, we can simply
form _merin fume_ :)

> But i found the verb _miina_ meaning "wish to go to a place, desire to
> go in some direction". you can use _minanye fumien_ to denote "i want
> to go to sleep"

Too metaphoric, I think... :) when we can use a simpler way to do
"want", using _mere_ :) (wasn't there an Ockham's thing that told
that? O:) )


Eleder
Bosque Verde

On 1 Oct 2000, at 21:44, Ales Bican wrote:

Nice poem :))

Only a few things...

> _alassenen enquanter oore inya_
> with joy [they] filled my heard

Whay _oore inya_, and not _oorenya_? I think _inya_ is to be used
only in a adjectival function, _tana naa inya_ (that is mine), for in
the other functions we can use the well-attested suffixed -nya
form... for metrical reasons, perhaps?

The same for _mi erya anta_, instead of _mi antarya_...

> _lastanen i lamma ar namnen maara_
> I listened [to] the sound and I judged [it] good

_namnenyas_, perhaps... but this is a poem, of course.

> _nam-_ "judge" (VT41:13,17); _ten_ "for" (FS) *_lalale_

Yes, but we have a more modern "for", _an_, in Namaarie...

Anyway, a nice piece os Elvish poetry :) Right to win the TyTy
prize? :)

Eleder
Bosque Verde

Aiya!

   I had been searching for a word 'pleasant' in Quenya. I've heard
that there is a suitable word in Qenya Lexicon - _iq(u)ista_ 'to
please'.  But before I've recalled that I had been trying to
reconstruct the word by analogy with the English one. English 'to
please' etymologically means 'to make calm (as the flat sea)'. Looking
in my wordlist I've found a word _quilde_ (from Gnomish Lexicon)
'quiet, hush, rest' - and _iquista_ came to my mind.

Obviously these words came from the same root. _-ta_ in _iquista_ is
definitely that "verbal ending ... with a causative meaning", initial
'i-' is probably a frequentative for *this* case (**quiquista is
awful). _-sta_ is either _-s_ + _-ta_ or _-d_ + _-ta_. That leaves
_*quis-_ or _*quid-_

Therefore _-lde_ in _quilde_ is  _-d_ + _le_.

And we have _*KWID_ 'calm'; _*kwidlee_: Q _quilde_ 'calm',
_*ikwidta-_: Q _iquista_ 'please'.

Now if I am right the word for 'pleasant' is _*iquistima_.


P.S. However there is a word _quilma_ 'quiet' (from LT, according to
Tirion's Quettaparma Queniallo) that dissents from this theory. For
its stem must be not _*quid-_ but _*quil-_ and there is no way neither
for _-l_ to become _-sta_ nor for _-d_ to become _-lma_. The only
possible case is _quil-_ + _-de_ > _quilde_.

Now I've got an even bigger problem - which sourse is more reliable:
QL+GL or GL+LT? Depending on that the right stem is _*KWID_ or
_*KWIL_. Or I am totally mistaken and _iquista_ and _quilde_ are not
connected and unlike in our language in Quenya we have different roots
for 'calm' and 'please'. The latter suggestion can be checked by looking
in QL and GL, but I have none.

Namaarie! S.Y., Elenhil Laiquendo