Dear Elflingers,

thanks for all who have contacted me in private asking why Aglardh was not
available. I am pleased to say that the webhosting company have rectified the
problem and Aglardh is back.

You can access Aglardh and its cousin EldarinWiki at

http://aglardh.middangeard.org.uk
http://eldarinwiki.com

A Merry Christmas to everybody in the community.

Shine on,

Thomas Ferencz





      
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A gentle answer turns away rage,
but a harsh word stirs up anger.

Quettar moica auquerna orme,
Mal quetta naraca quira ahyea.

Not quite sure about whether the verbs translate correctly.

Thanks for the link to Rausch's study. This is the sort of thing I've been
looking for. This is a great start -- I'd like to see an even more thorough
study listing the likely Primary World inspirations for *every* extant word in
all of Tolkien's languages, including more comparisons of Welsh and Sindarin
words, possible Proto-Indo-European inspirations for Quendian roots,
PW-inspirations for the Khuzdul words, and also showing which words from mature
Quenya and Sindarin originated in Qenya, Goldogrin, and Noldorin words and how
they were modified along the way. I admit I haven't sprung fully- and
perfectly-developed into the world of Ardan linguistics -- I have a lot to
learn.

Another point on Rausch's work: I find his suggested Irish inspirations for
Noldorin interesting and useful. Irish appears to be a secondary PW-flavor for
Sindarin -- if only in the lexical stratum. I'd be interested to see if Modern
Irish or Old Irish is the more likely source for those words

Thorsten Renk wrote:

>>To quote from his comparison between Quenya and Finnish: "The frequency of
certain phonemes is, however, usually very different, so that the languages are
not that similar after all."<<

Yes, Quenya and Finnish are different in many ways, including the frequency of
certain phonemes. And, they are similar in many ways, such as the several words
that are clearly inspired by specific Finnish words and the overall Finnish
style (along with Latin and Greek style). To quote Tolkien:

"Actually [Quenya] might be said to be composed on a Latin basis with two other
(main) ingredients that happen to give me 'phonaesthetic' pleasure: Finnish and
Greek." (Letter 144)

And, to quote from Rausch's comparison: "So Quenya has Finnish, Greek and Latin
as 'ingredients' (though Finnish is clearly the main influence)"

I would make Extended Quenya no more or less similar to Finnish (and Latin and
Greek) than Extant Quenya is.

>>[...] which would let me spot your Finnish-inspired Quenya easily.<<

That remains to be seen. I've spoken of these controversial ideas because, if
they are valid (and I think they are), I want these methods to be available to
others in their own language-building endeavors. Still, I'm a long way from
making my own Middle-earth languages, so a spot-test will have to wait till
then.

Basically, I don't see how Rausch's study conflicts with my suggestions.
Instead, it looks like Rausch's work *confirms* what I've said -- that a certain
percentage of Elvish words are directly inspired by words from various Primary
World languages.

Here is my thinking:

1) One of Hostetter's themes in the essay "Elvish as She is Spoke", is that the
extant Quenya and Sindarin languages, as they stand, are incomplete. This is
true.

2) Thus, if anyone wants to complete the languages, then new words must be
invented.

3) And, if one wishes to use the same methods Tolkien used in inventing words,
then I suggest that it's only natural that a certain percentage of *invented*
words be directly inspired by Finnish and Welsh (along with a lesser number of
words inspired by Latin, Irish, and so on)+, since this is true of a certain
percentage of the *extant* words.

But, I hope people haven't gotten the idea that this is the only method I'd use
to invent new words. This is only one method. Some other methods that Tolkien
used include making a cognate from a word he'd already invented in another
Secondary World language, providing fictive origins for "wander words" (e.g.
Qenya <pelekko>), and modelling compound words or names on PW compound words or
names (e.g. Elendil on AElfwine). For Meo-Quenya, I would simply use the full
range of methods, in a similar percentage as Tolkien did.

+(Though I've mostly mentioned Finnish in relation to Quenya, the "phonetic
transformation method" would apply to words from any other languages that have
inspired Elvish words, such as Latin and Irish. For example, Quenya <aiwe>
"bird" seems to be inspired by <avis>. So, for Meo-Quenya, there might be a few
invented words inspired by Latin. My guess is that the Quenya word came first,
and that the Sindarin word <aew> was subsequently invented as a cognate. As far
as Sindarin, I've usually only mentioned Welsh. However, based on Rausch's
study, there is likely some Irish-inspired Noldorin lexicon that is appropriate
to convert to mature Sindarin (and thus for Extended Sindarin, additional
Irish-inspired words could be invented) and also some tertiary Old English
lexical inspiration as well, such as S <cooof> "bay", seeming inspired by OE
<cofa> "small chamber, cell", later "small bay, cove".)

On a related note: besides "wordshape inspirations" and "grammatical
inspirations", there's also "semantic inspirations" and "etymological
inspirations". For example, Celtic languages have a lot of words for various
kinds, shapes, and sizes of hills and valleys. I wouldn't be surprised if
Tolkien modeled the connotions of the various Sindarin "hill and valley words"
on Welsh (and perhaps Irish). And, if the extant Sindarin "hill and valley
words" can be matched up with Celtic words, then it would show what other "hill
and valley words" are necessary to fill out Sindarin so that it has as rich a
toponymic inventory as Welsh.

One way of spotting semantic inspirations would be to take all the Elvish words
that have a range of meanings (especially if the range is strange to an
English-speaker) and see if that semantic range is the same or nearly the same
as a word in any relevant PW-language. To this end, I'd like to try to know
exactly what Finnish/Welsh, etc. dictionaries Tolkien used. Likewise, Tolkien
may've modeled some etymologies on specific entries from various etymological
dictionaries of his day. A thorough study might reveal several etymological
inspirations. An example would be Quenya <hwan> "sponge, fungus". In Modern
English, a mushroom would never be confused with a sponge. Yet in Finnish, the
word <sieni> means "fungus, mushroom, sponge". Also relevant is Latin <fungus>
which is thought to be cognate to, or derived from, Attic Greek <sphongos>
"sponge". Without studying the Finnish and Latin etymologies, the semantic range
of Quenya "fungus + sponge" isn't
  transparent to an English-speaker. So, having this data would provide another
template or device to use when extending the languages.

Lastly, going back to an Elvish word for "mold", though I imagine mold isn't a
common subject in Elvish laments, I'm sure the Elves had a word for it. And, my
guess is that the word was of ancient origin, rather than a kenning like
**<manhelf>...

:-D
Travis


      
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I would like to point out a couple of things in regard to the
similarity between Finnish and Quenya. The similarity does not lie in
superficial similarities between individual words and syllables nor
the frequency of same sounds and clusters. Roman Rausch is quite right
in pointing this out. But one cannot deny the influence of Finnish in
the basic phonetic sound laws and grammar of Quenya. That is where the
real similarity lies. Words can end only in vowels and single dentals
(l, n, r, s, t), words can begin only with vowels and single
consonants etc. These rules are hard to find in Indo-European
languages. So these sound laws, combined with Latin consonants and
vowels, are roughly what make Quenya sound like it does. Or at least
that's my educated opinion (see The Finnicization of Quenya,
http://www.omentielva.com/ardaphil.htm).

In any case, I don't think it's wise to directly borrow Finnish stems
into Quenya. That's not the way Tolkien usually worked. It was more
subtle that that (even loans were non-obvious). But let us not
belittle the influence of Finnish on Quenya, nor of Latin, even though
Quenya most certainly is not Finlatinish.

Márienna,

Petri Tikka

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Thorsten Renk" <trenk@...> wrote:

> You are wrong in the central point - I don't care if the *word* is
    > ugly - your *scheme* is quite different to Tolkien's, and that is
> what would show  if you derive 100 words, and what would make your
> Quenya very different from Tolkien's in style. Did you ever look
> into the *actual* overlap between Finnish and Quenya? Since I'm
> living in Finland, I happen to have some insight into the language,
> and there is a remarkable difference in style between Quenya and
> Finnish which would let me spot your Finnish-inspired Quenya easily.
>
> I recommend Roman Rausch's article
>
> Similarities between 'real' languages and Tolkien's Eldarin
> http://sindanoorie.atspace.com/Similarities.htm
>
> To quote from his comparison between Quenya and Finnish: "The
> frequency of certain phonemes is, however, usually very different,
> so that the languages are not that similar after all."

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Travis Henry <traversetravis@...> wrote:

> These vague formulas would only be applied artistically (rather than
> mechanically) on a word-by-word basis, like I provisionally
suggested > for Finnish <multa> inspiring Meo-Quenya *<mullo> "mold"
(the fuzzy
> stuff that grows on food).

The Finnish word _multa_ does not refer to the fungi that grows on old
food but rather soil. The word for "mold" in the first sense is _home_.

Yours,

Petri Tikka

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Petri Tikka" <petristikka@...> wrote:

> The Finnish word _multa_ does not refer to the fungi that grows on old
> food but rather soil. The word for "mold" in the first sense is _home_.

Okay, I made a mistake as far as that particular example. From the beginning,
I've stated that it was only a rough provisional example, and that more research
would be necessary. It was only meant to give people an idea of that method of
inventing words. The method is not invalidated by my clumsy example.

Travis


      
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>>The similarity does not lie in superficial similarities between individual
words<<

No, in some cases, as Rausch pointed out, it *does* lie in similarities between
individual words, such as Q <lapse> "babe" and F <lapsi> "child". Your statement
contradicts what you said later in the same message: when you said that there
are Finnish "loans" in Quenya.

>>In any case, I don't think it's wise to directly borrow Finnish stems into
Quenya. That's not the way Tolkien usually worked.<<

Tolkien may've not *usually* worked that way, but he clearly *sometimes* did.
So, in Extended Quenya, I would *sometimes* do the same.

>>It was more subtle that that (even loans were non-obvious).<<

I would aim to make any additional Finnish "loanwords" (=wordshape inspirations)
as subtle as, and no more or less obvious than the extant ones.

Travis

P.S. And if one includes Qenya, this similarity between individual words is even
greater, as you clearly outlined here:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/lambengolmor/message/485 . And while I
understand that Qenya requires some modification to be used as Mature Quenya
(which was partially "de-Finnicized"), I don't think it's unreasonable to
suggest that many Qenya words (even Finnish "loans") are going to be the best
words to fill in the gaps in Alio-Quenya vocabulary.


      
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Annaka wrote:

> There is a site that people might be interested in(if you haven't already
found it...) www.elvish.org has a Q and A section. The author/editor of the
site, Carl F. Hostetter, states that it is not possible to speak either language
correctly in conversation, because they were incomplete in their creation.

Yeah, we've heard of Hostetter. He is of course entitled to his opinions, which
however should not be treated as uncontroversial facts.

> I have studied enough of it to know that, sadly, he is probably right, but, I
can't dismiss the fact that Ardalambion has both a Quenya and Sindarin language
course on their site, so who's right?

(There is a Sindarin course on Ardalambion? I wasn't aware of any, and I should
know...) Well. If you read the Quenya course I have written, you will find that
many conclusions are tentative. What we can "do" with these languages depends on
your angle on the whole study. It also depends on whether you accept any
post-Tolkien editing and development of these languages.

Many different ideas emerged in Tolkien's notes over the years, and Bill Welden
has pointed out that as we learn more about Tolkien's way of work, it becomes
more rather than less difficult to say whether a certain construction is proper
Quenya or not. Yet the flip side of that argument is that it is also ever more
difficult to definitely dismiss any post-Tolkien sample as being definitely
_incorrect_ Quenya.

Were the languages "incomplete in their creation"? Well, yes. Quenya is however
far closer to being a functional language than some give it credit for. (In
Sindarin we much tolerate greater uncertainties if we try to actually use the
language.) But let's say that two people with no other language in common
memorized the Quenya vocabulary we have, at least from the Etymologies onwards.
Let them also internalize the grammar that can be inferred from the texts we
have. If these two people were then stranded on a deserted island, and this
vocabulary and this grammar were their only possible means of communication, I
can tell you they would be enormously better off than they would have been with
no language in common.

It would now be quite possible to write even book-length Quenya documents using
nothing but Tolkienian vocabulary and relatively uncontroversial grammar. If you
translate random text, you will however need some neologisms as well.

> Be ready to accept that Quenya will inevitably end up in your Sindarin, a lot
of words/ideas in Quenya just weren't converted into Sindarin.

Indeed Quenya is by far the most complete Tolkien-language, and in many ways the
main language of the whole linguistic legendarium. And since the relationship
between Quenya and the other languages is quite systematic, it is possible to
extrapolate much "unrecorded" vocabulary from Quenya to Sindarin. One should not
simply borrow Quenya words as they are, for their style is quite different from
that of Sindarin, but derive the phological equivalents. This requires some
insight on the supposed evolution of these languages from Common Eldarin, of
course.

- HKF

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

First, I need to say to everyone that Helge is right, there is no Sindarin
course on Ardalambion.  My fingers got ahead of my brain as I was typing.  The
Sindarin course that I found is at www.elvish.org/gwaith/language.htm.  The
group goes by Fellowship of the Wordsmiths and Gwaith I Phethdain.  They are
listed under 'Links of Interest' on Ardalambion.  Be sure to type out all of
that(or link) if you want to return to the site.  I liked the site, there are a
lot of neat things to look at.  www.elvish.org  takes you to the homepage of the
Elven Linguistic Fellowship.
   Second, I want to say that seeing parts of my post in a reply submitted by the
creator of one of my favorite sites for research and resources.  I almost fell
out of my chair when I read who wrote the reply.  I'm not sucking up, just being
honest.  I consider it a compliment that I was given positive feedback and
useful advice from a person that I have concluded to be an authority in the
field.  I now feel inspired to continue in my study of Sindarin, and not give up
on it like I have with some projects I've done in the past.  Just want to extend
my gratitude to Helge for that one.  I will be keeping the advice you have given
about word development in mind from here on out.
                                 Annaka





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The following line occurs in the film TTT:
Boe a hyn neled herain dan caer menig.

Wouldn't dan trigger nasal mutation, creating da chaer menig?



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Milan Beckers" <mrtr0y@...> wrote:
>
> The following line occurs in the film TTT:
> Boe a hyn neled herain dan caer menig.
>
> Wouldn't dan trigger nasal mutation, creating da chaer menig?

According to my understanding of Sindarin mutations at the time, it
either should have been da chaer or dan gaer, depending on what form I
thought underlay "dan".  I can no longer recall what if any reasoning
lay behind the absence of mutation; it's possible that there wasn't any
rationale and it was just a mistake.

David Salo

winterhavik wrote:

> A gentle answer turns away rage,
> but a harsh word stirs up anger.

> Quettar moica auquerna orme,
> Mal quetta naraca quira ahyea.

Drawing on PE17 vocabulary, I'd write:

Moica tóquetië auquerë aha,
mal naraca quetta quirë rúsë.

- HKF

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello everyone, first off I want to apologize for tormenting you guys
with what must be another in a series of seemingly endless translation
assists. I have attempted to do the work on my own, but my
understanding of the language is very crude and raw at this point. I
have been trying to form the correct words and tenses for a tattoo I
want to get(bet you've never heard that one before LOL) and I *think*
I have something in the ballpark. Still, it being a tattoo and
permanent and all, I don't really want to get it wrong and even though
I have been reading over several texts breaking the language down,
dictionaries and modes etc for several days now, it's just all kind of
over my head and getting jumbled up in my brain at this point and so I
have been looking for help. Here is what I do have:

Here is the original phrase I wanted to put in Tengwar Quenya:

Son of dust, redeemed of Christ my fate lies in his hands

... here is as best as I can tell from some Quenya dictionaries that I
found the closest I can get to stating that with the available Quenya
words:

Son of dust delivered of Christ my fate is established in his hand

... I actually kind of like the feel of the second phrasing much
better as it seems somehow more appropriate for the mood of the thing,
but I would happy with either to be honest. OK, so here is my attempt
at translation:

yondo en' asto etelehtanë en' Hristo umbarinya nátulcanë mi cambarya

That is the part where I got in way over my head. There are so many
different word choices in some cases and I am not at all sure that I
put the right prefix or suffix for the tenses either. I do like the
particular word choice that references the hand at the end of the
phrase (camba) as that particular word meaning for the hand was
exactly what I was trying to say. I'm afraid I've made a mess of the
phrase though or I missed some critical grammar rule and botched the
whole thing. I don't want it to translate to something ridiculous,
both because I am a perfectionist but also because I have always had
great respect for Tolkiens works and as a long time fantasy reader, I
think it would be terribly wrong to mess up something that was such an
integral and important part of the stories to the author.

Is there anyone who would help me verify if I translated this right or
help me with the corrections if they are needed? I would very much
appreciate the help! Also, I have been a little confused as to the
best way to get this in an appropriate tengwar font once the
translation is definitely correct. I see lots of transcribers and
things online, but they never really say if you should put in your
phrase in straight english or if they are for the translated text
using roman characters. I usually get lines of jibberish when I try
entering one or the other in the online transcribers. Any information
anyone could tell me about how to ensure I am getting the right elvish
font characters for my translation would also be very greatly appreciated.

As a side note I would love to be able to eventually read, write and
speak the language, but that is something I am going to have to put
off for a slower time in my life. In the meantime I can think of no
better way to mark my body (LOL) then by tying so many things that are
key about myself into an elegant and tidy piece of script. And just in
case, for those who would question about whether I really want to get
a tattoo of this... I am quite sure. I don't have any other tattoos,
this would be my first. I have taken 5 years to make a decision to do
this and decide exactly what I would want it to say. I plan to get it
wrapped around my wrist. I would be more than happy to post a pic of
the tattoo here once I have it so everyone can see the fruits of this
labor. Thanks again, I really appreciate anyone who has taken the time
just to read this!

Here's all I could find on the Hvendi language:

In July, 2000, Lisa Star included Hvendi in her "List of Tolkien's Languages":

"In addition Tolkien developed Mork and Hvendi. These three Germanic languages
are described in historical grammars and wordlists still unpublished. The last
two languages are probably related to Old English and Old Norse, respectively."
http://www.geocities.com/athens/parthenon/9902/langlst.html

In September, 2001, Star added an "Unpublished Manuscripts" page which states:

"§7, Taliska; §8, Mørk; and §9, Hvendi are three Germanic-type languages
invented by Tolkien on the basis of Gothic, Old English (Mercian dialect) and
Old Norse, respectively"
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/9902/unpub.html

In April, 2004, on Elfling-d, in regard to a poster's question about Star's
mention of Hvendi, Hostetter stated:

"Yes, Hvendi exists, and is related to (and, in the chronology of Tolkien's
linguistic invention, contemporary with) Taliska."
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfling-d/message/291

This seems to hint that Hvendi was conceived to fit in the legendarium as a
language spoken at the same time as Taliska, in the First Age.

In February, 2006, Hostetter responded to Star's statement at his Baleful Eye
page. The majority of the essay is focused on Star's mistaken description of
"Mørk" (On the Mythopoeic Society message boards, Patrick Wynne suggests that
"Mørk" is a misreporting of Tolkien's Hungarian-style Magol language:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mythsoc/message/18083) -- yet in regard to Hvendi,
Hostetter states that:

"[Star's] descriptions of Taliska and Hvendi here are accurate enough"
http://cavscrip.wordpress.com/category/the-baleful-eye/sophistry/

This suggests that Hvendi is indeed an Old Norse-style language, paired with
Taliska as a Gothic-style language.

Those are all the references to Hvendi that I know of. If anyone knows of
additional references, I welcome them to speak up.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\
-----
And, here's my speculation on who may've spoken Hvendi and how this language may
fit into the mature legendarium:

In Vinyar Tengwar #23, Wynne and Hostetter state:

"Taliska was closely related to a language spoken by men who remained east of
the Eredlindon, and from this eastern sister-speech [quoting Tolkien] "are come
after many ages of change languages that still live in the North of the earth.""
(p. 18)

The full quote from Tolkien is:

"Yet other Men there were, it seems, that remained east of Eredlindon, who held
to their speech, and from this, closely akin to Taliska, are come after many
ages of change languages that live still in the North of the earth." (Lhammas:
HoME V, p.179)

I am not confident of this guess, but I wonder if Hvendi is the language
referred to in those two quotes -- namely, the tongue of Men of Eriador in the
First Age, the stragglers related to the Edain of Beleriand. Perhaps Taliska was
conceived as the "Germanic language of Beleriand" and Hvendi as the "Germanic
language of Eriador". If so, then there may be room for Hvendi in the mature
legendarium of the Silmarillion and LotR.

When the Lhammas was written, Tolkien conceived that all the Men of Beleriand
(except the Easterlings) spoke Taliska -- including the Beorians, Halethians,
and Hadorians:

"But nought is preserved of the most ancient speeches of Men, save of the tongue
of the folk of Bëor and Haleth and Hádor. Now the language of these folk was
greatly influenced by the Green-elves, and it was of old named Taliska" (p.179)

The conception in the published Silmarillion is different: the Beorians and
Hadorians spoke closely related tongues (presumably Germanic-style), while the
Halethians speak an entirely different language (presumably Celtic-style). So,
the Lhammas conception would need to be "updated" to match the mature
legendarium, such as using Taliska only for Hadorian instead for all three
Houses, and making Beorian an "Old English version of Taliska". Yet if Hvendi is
the Eriadorian sister to Beleriandic Taliska, Hvendi's situation would require
little "updating". Hvendi could still be the First Age language of northwestern
Eriador, spoken by the Men who:

"dwelt about Lake Evendim, in the North Downs and the Weather Hills, and in the
lands between as far as the Brandywine, west of which the often wandered though
they did not dwell there." (UT 275)

In a summary of his father's notes, CRT says:

"It appears that they were in origin Men of the same stock as the Peoples of
Beor and Hador who had not crossed the Blue Mountains into Beleriand dur-
ing the First Age." (UT 275-276)

This quote is fitting, since all three peoples would be Germanic in style:
quasi-English Beorians, quasi-Goth Hadorians, and quasi-Norse "Hvendians" (or
whatever they may be called).

Thus, Hvendi would be the language of the twelve Men "of high heart and courage"
who met the Numenoreans at the Tower Hills in the year 600 of the Second Age.
(The other main Mannish speech of Eriador (besides any Easterling speech) would
be the Halethic speech spoken in southern and eastern Eriador -- from Bree-land
and parts south, and east of the Weather Hills.)

Despite the radical change in style from Germanic-like Taliska/Hadorian to
Semitic-like Adunaic, Hvendi and early Adunaic must've still been mostly
cognate, based on the description of the meeting at the Tower Hills:

"At first they were disappointed, for neither side could understand the other;
but when they mingled in friendship they found that they shared very many words
still clearly recognisable, and others that could be understood with attention,
and they were able to converse haltingly about simple matters.’ (UT 275)

It is likely that Hvendi (rather, its Second Age descendant) would've been
replaced by the Common Speech as it spread through Eriador (later Arnor) in the
late Second Age.

I realize that I'm going far out on a limb with little information. I recognize
my guess may be way off. I look forward to the release of additional material on
Taliska and Hvendi.

Travis

P.S. If Hvendi is Old Norse-flavored and was spoken in northwestern Eriador,
it's curious that another Old Norse-flavored language was spoken alongside it --
the Leikvian or East Danian language of western Eriador. Leikvian was apparently
the language of the Elven-lands east of the Blue Mountains and west of the
Brandywine, spoken during the First and Second Ages.


      
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Just out of curiosity, 'da chaer' fits the rules of nasal mutation, but I was
wondering why 'dan' becomes 'da'.  If 'dan gaer' is used(c becoming g in soft
mutation rules)  no change is made to the word 'dan'.  I read the rules of
mutation several times, but found no explanation for the variation between 'dan'
and 'da', based on type of mutation being used.
                                          Annaka



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I noticed another error in the original post. I wrote:

>>-The language of the aboriginals of Edhellond in Belfalas, where "there was
already a primitive harbour there of fisherfolk" = quasi-Lepontic<<

I meant to say Ligurian. The "Bel-men" would be evocative of the Ligures people,
and their speech would be Quasi-Ligurian. Why? Because:

1) Edhellond is apparently located in the Westlands in the same location, or
about the same location, as the city of Genoa, ancient Genua.
2) The native language of Genua and the surrounding coast was Ligurian, an
Indo-European language thought to be most closely related to Celtic.
3) The difference between the culturally advanced Elf settlers and the native
"Bel-men" is reminiscent of the difference between the culturally advanced
Phoenician settlers of Genua and the native Ligures. For more see:
http://phoenicia.org/genoa.html
4) Edhellond was founded way back in the First Age, long before Numenor was even
brought up from the seafloor. Since the late Second Age and early Third Age
Exilic settlement of the coasts of Gondor is in some ways evocative of the Roman
settlement of the Mediterranean (e.g. the Roman expansion into nothern Italy and
Gaul is evocative of Falastur's expansion toward Andrast), it makes sense for
Edhellond to be reminiscent of a Phoenician settlement which preceded the Romans
(=early Gondorians) in that part of the Mediterranean.
5) There are a couple important Ligurian associations with the wordshape <bêl>,
the only extant word of First Age "Bel-man" speech*. Regardless of whether these
are coincidences, or if Tolkien was aware of them: a) The chief deity of ancient
Genua was BELanu; and b) Though I realize this may sound silly, the Ligures were
also key a key example of the BELLbeaker culture. The Celto-Ligurian bellbeaker
culture is clearly depicted and labeled as such in Colin McEvedy's "Penguin
Atlas of Ancient History", which I suspect Tolkien used as inspiration for
various other features of the Westlands, such as the shape of the north shore of
the Sea of Rhun. So, by conscious intention or coincidence, <bêl> is a fitting
name in a Quasi-Ligurian language.

*According to Tolkien's "Rivers & Beacon-hills of Gondor" essay, published in
Vinyar Tengwar #42, <bêl> likely meant "shore", and was likely the native name,
or part of the native name, of the region that would later usually be called
Dor-en-Ernil -- I think, in this case, referring to the entire peninsula.
Tolkien suggests that <Belfalas> meant "shore-shore", and was a name with a
reduplicated meaning in the indigenous language and the incomers' language
(Sindarin).

Travis


      
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I'm glad to announce you that the Vinyar Tengwar 43 is now (legally) available
in French here :

http://lambenore.free.fr/telechargements/VT43.pdf

thanks to the authorizations of the Tolkien Estate and the authors (Carl F.
Hostetter, Patrick H. Wynne & Arden R. Smith).

David Giraudeau


      
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--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Travis Henry <traversetravis@...>
wrote:
>
> *According to Tolkien's "Rivers & Beacon-hills of Gondor" essay,
published in Vinyar Tengwar #42, <bêl> likely meant "shore", and was
likely the native name, or part of the native name, of the region
that would later usually be called Dor-en-Ernil -- I think, in this
case, referring to the entire peninsula. Tolkien suggests that
<Belfalas> meant "shore-shore", and was a name with a reduplicated
meaning in the indigenous language and the incomers' language
(Sindarin).

Well, this is *one* of Tolkien's explanations of the name _Belfalas_
in VT42.

According to Christopher Tolkien, however, "this passage was struck
through, presumably at once, since the next paragraph begins
again 'Several other names in Gondor are apparently of similar
origin'. A page of rapid manuscript found with the typescript essay
["The Rivers and Beacon-hills of Gondor"] shows my father sketching
an entirely different origin for the element _Bel-_." (VT42:15)

This manuscript page reads: "_Belfalas_. This is a special case. _Bel-
_ is certainly an element derived from a pre-Númenorian name; but its
source is known, and was in fact Sindarin." (VT42:16)

According to Carl Hostetter, the manuscript ends "mid-sentence, and
without reaching an explanation of the element _Bel-_. [...] The
typescript resumes with a replacement of the rejected passage on
_Belfalas_ (and now avoiding discussion of that problematic name):"
(VT42:16)

If I may venture an opinion, this is a striking example of the way
Tolkien frequently invented and rethought the conceptions of names
and the history of places, sometimes not arriving at a definite
conclusion.

I am in doubt about the plausibility of a hypothetical "Quasi-
Ligurian language" based on such evidence.


Regards,
Erna

Suilad all,
I was wondering if anyone reading this knows how involved getting
permission to use Sindarin and or Quenya in the text of a novel would
be.  I tracked down the contact information for the solicitor that
handles requests to get permission to use it, which is a great step
foward.  I guess I am nervous about asking for permission, and being
told no, but if you want to write about Elves, logic prevails that
they'll be speaking their own language.  There is a site(which shall
remain nameless for now) that dismisses any written work that includes
Tolkien's languages as fan fiction, and therefore garbage.  The writer
doesn't come right out and say that, but it's heavily implied.  At the
risk of sounding snobby, I know what FanFic is, and would be reluctant
to stick that label on what I have written(all 24,000 words of it...)
Since Quenya and Sindarin are copyrighted, I am thinking that someone
here might have experience with getting permission to use it.  If so,
I'd be interested in hearing about your experience, good or bad.
                                 Hannon lle,
                                         Annaka

I suggest that the Vidugavian Northmen -- the "Goths of the Third Age" --
would've originally used a mode of Cirth, just as the Goths originally used
Runes: http://www.omniglot.com/writing/runic.htm#gothic

However I suggest that, due to Gondorian influence, the Vidugavians later came
to have their own Tengwar-based script -- just as in the 4th century, the Goths
adopted a Greek-based alphabet due to Byzantine influence. Though this
Vidugavian script would be based on Tengwar instead of Greek, it would be
visually and stylistically evocative of the Gothic alphabet: 
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/gothic.htm

Travis


      
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crowbabe74 skrev:
>
>
> Suilad all,
> I was wondering if anyone reading this knows how involved getting
> permission to use Sindarin and or Quenya in the text of a novel would
> be. I tracked down the contact information for the solicitor that
> handles requests to get permission to use it, which is a great step
> foward. I guess I am nervous about asking for permission, and being
> told no, but if you want to write about Elves, logic prevails that
> they'll be speaking their own language. There is a site(which shall
> remain nameless for now) that dismisses any written work that includes
> Tolkien's languages as fan fiction, and therefore garbage. The writer
> doesn't come right out and say that, but it's heavily implied. At the
> risk of sounding snobby, I know what FanFic is, and would be reluctant
> to stick that label on what I have written(all 24,000 words of it...)
> Since Quenya and Sindarin are copyrighted, I am thinking that someone
> here might have experience with getting permission to use it. If so,
> I'd be interested in hearing about your experience, good or bad.
> Hannon lle,
> Annaka

Whatever you learn, please keep us posted since I'd be much interested
to learn too. And how much can you copyright a language. Sure, in a text
where it is spoken by elves I guess it's logical that the estate might
have issues with it being used. But if your novel is rather about a
bunch of teenagers involved in live role playing and adding a "namarië"
here and there - is that a violation of the rights?

And, as is my case, planning to release an album where one out of ten
tracks or so might be in sindarin - is that considered "writing" or
simply "tribute art"?

All the music by my band Angaudlinn is Tolkien-oriented but noone can
really stop that. But which words might be copyrighted - if any? The
band started out in 1995 as "Shadowfax" but that was dropped when I
learned a rock band used it. "Silmarillion" was used for years but I
changed that 'cause I guessed it would be impossible to use because if
copyright reasons and so forth...

There are many bands and similar out there which make use of Tolkien
names. The classic album "Lord Of The Rings" by Bo Hansson isn't just
named after the book, every single track is bears the name of a chapter;
"The Ring Goes South", "Flight To The Ford" and so on. That was released
when Tolkien was still alive and I've never heard of any complaint
though they knew about it.

Unless things has gone a lot hysterical after the success of the films...

Anyway, let us know please.

And hobbits, don't be too scared during the extra days before the new
year! ;)

---
electronically yours, jesper
- -- --- ---- ----- ---- --- -- -
www.electronic-obsession.se
www.myspace.com/machinepop
- -- --- ---- ----- ---- --- -- -

Would recommend a search through the Yahoo Group for Elfling for "Copyright" to
see previous arguements.

caio
Graeme

jesper schreef:
> Whatever you learn, please keep us posted since I'd be much interested
> to learn too. And how much can you copyright a language. Sure, in a text
> where it is spoken by elves I guess it's logical that the estate might
> have issues with it being used.
>
Having elves to speak that language will still not be enough to breach
copyright law. You'd have to let those elves say exactly (or almost
exactly) the same things they do as in Tolkien's works (and no one or
two sentences isn't enough). So as long as your not writing about the
same world Tolkien was then you should be very safe. If you start
writing about Arda & Middle Earth though, you'll have to be carefull not
to *copy* any text (with or without rephrasing).

> But if your novel is rather about a
> bunch of teenagers involved in live role playing and adding a "namarië"
> here and there - is that a violation of the rights?
>

> And, as is my case, planning to release an album where one out of ten
> tracks or so might be in sindarin - is that considered "writing" or
> simply "tribute art"?
>
As long as you wrote the text yourself it should pose no problem at all.
I.e. you're the copyright owner, not the designer of the language you
used to write in.

> All the music by my band Angaudlinn is Tolkien-oriented but noone can
> really stop that. But which words might be copyrighted - if any? The
> band started out in 1995 as "Shadowfax" but that was dropped when I
> learned a rock band used it. "Silmarillion" was used for years but I
> changed that 'cause I guessed it would be impossible to use because if
> copyright reasons and so forth...
>
Single words and single terms/names, and even full titles, can _not_ be
copyrighted. These can only be "owned" through trademark law, which,
unlike copyright, requires these names/words to be registered
explicitly. So unless someone has a registered trademark of
"Silmarillion" this should pose no problem whatsoever.

> There are many bands and similar out there which make use of Tolkien
> names. The classic album "Lord Of The Rings" by Bo Hansson isn't just
> named after the book, every single track is bears the name of a chapter;
> "The Ring Goes South", "Flight To The Ford" and so on. That was released
> when Tolkien was still alive and I've never heard of any complaint
> though they knew about it.
>
As I said above, titles cannot be copyrighted. "Substantial" pieces of
text can though... Whatever a "substantial" piece of text is will in the
end be the decision of a judge, though I'm sure that every sane judge
will agree that a single sentence or a single title can not be
considered "substantial". Otherwise short sentences could _never_ be
legally used by anyone because it would violate someone's copyright on
that sentence, which would inherently go at the cost of free speech, or
speech & writing at all.

PS I think I've answered most of the above questions & comments
completely accurate. That doesn't mean I have not made any mistakes
though. No guarantees...

--
Giel



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Giel van Schijndel skrev:
> jesper schreef:
>  > Whatever you learn, please keep us posted since I'd be much interested
>  > to learn too. And how much can you copyright a language. Sure, in a text
>  > where it is spoken by elves I guess it's logical that the estate might
>  > have issues with it being used.
---
> PS I think I've answered most of the above questions & comments
> completely accurate. That doesn't mean I have not made any mistakes
> though. No guarantees...

thanks for a good walk-through. I appreciate it a lot!

I guess I'll go with Angaudlinn now since I bet someone do have a
trademark on Silmarillion. I think even the rock band Marillion was
called that originally but changed... not positive about this though.

--
electronically yours, jesper
- -- --- ---- ----- ---- --- -- -
www.electronic-obsession.se
www.myspace.com/machinepop
- -- --- ---- ----- ---- --- -- -

Suilad, everyone -
   Just thought I'd let you all know that I grabbed ahold of the brass today and
sent a letter to the solicitor of Tolkien's estate requesting information about
getting permission to use Sindarin in my manuscript(after getting it
published...it would be sad if I had to get permission to use it when no one but
me will see it...)and what the procedure is.  I am waiting with baited breath to
see if I get a reply.  In the meantime, my fingers are officially crossed...
              Annaka



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--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Ryszard Derdzinski" <galadhorn@...>
wrote:
>
> Daro! Lasto beth nîn!
>
> I am looking for a copy or original of the grammar and dictionary of
> Lossidilrin, Snow-elven invented by David Salo. It was published
in "The
> Northern Waste", being a publication of MERP (role-play about
Middle-earth).
>
> I can trade, I can buy it, whatever you want. BTW I strongly
recommend the
> 28 issue of "Other Hands" (The International Journal for Middle-
earth
> Gaming) where you will find a complete phonology, grammar and
vocabulary of
> Silvan invented by David Salo.
>
> Cuio mae,
>
> Ryszard Derdzinski
> (Galadhorn)

*********************************************************************
>
It seems that this language has disappeared. Does anyone know where I
can find a grammar of Lossidilrin?

Thanks
Kuniklo

Suil Giel,



I noticed this on the elfling website and was wondering if there is any chance I
could obtain a copy of the music your band, Angaudlinn, which I would love to
hear?  Pls. let me know.

Blessings and thanks,
Dianna


-----Original Message-----
From: Giel van Schijndel <me@...>
To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 10:05 am
Subject: Re: [elfling] Sindarin, Quenya, and Copyright laws...







jesper schreef:
> Whatever you learn, please keep us posted since I'd be much interested
> to learn too. And how much can you copyright a language. Sure, in a text
> where it is spoken by elves I guess it's logical that the estate might
> have issues with it being used.
>
Having elves to speak that language will still not be enough to breach
copyright law. You'd have to let those elves say exactly (or almost
exactly) the same things they do as in Tolkien's works (and no one or
two sentences isn't enough). So as long as your not writing about the
same world Tolkien was then you should be very safe. If you start
writing about Arda & Middle Earth though, you'll have to be carefull not
to *copy* any text (with or without rephrasing).

> But if your novel is rather about a
> bunch of teenagers involved in live role playing and adding a "namarië"
> here and there - is that a violation of the rights?
>

> And, as is my case, planning to release an album where one out of ten
> tracks or so might be in sindarin - is that considered "writing" or
> simply "tribute art"?
>
As long as you wrote the text yourself it should pose no problem at all.
I.e. you're the copyright owner, not the designer of the language you
used to write in.

> All the music by my band Angaudlinn is Tolkien-oriented but noone can
> really stop that. But which words might be copyrighted - if any? The
> band started out in 1995 as "Shadowfax" but that was dropped when I
> learned a rock band used it. "Silmarillion" was used for years but I
> changed that 'cause I guessed it would be impossible to use because if
> copyright reasons and so forth...
>
Single words and single terms/names, and even full titles, can _not_ be
copyrighted. These can only be "owned" through trademark law, which,
unlike copyright, requires these names/words to be registered
explicitly. So unless someone has a registered trademark of
"Silmarillion" this should pose no problem whatsoever.

> There are many bands and similar out there which make use of Tolkien
> names. The classic album "Lord Of The Rings" by Bo Hansson isn't just
> named after the book, every single track is bears the name of a chapter;
> "The Ring Goes South", "Flight To The Ford" and so on. That was released
> when Tolkien was still alive and I've never heard of any complaint
> though they knew about it.
>
As I said above, titles cannot be copyrighted. "Substantial" pieces of
text can though... Whatever a "substantial" piece of text is will in the
end be the decision of a judge, though I'm sure that every sane judge
will agree that a single sentence or a single title can not be
considered "substantial". Otherwise short sentences could _never_ be
legally used by anyone because it would violate someone's copyright on
that sentence, which would inherently go at the cost of free speech, or
speech & writing at all.

PS I think I've answered most of the above questions & comments
completely accurate. That doesn't mean I have not made any mistakes
though. No guarantees...

--
Giel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Merry Christmas!

I have made a Vin-Quenya translation of "Arkihuolesi kaikki heitä". It
is an old Finnish Christmas song by Alpo Noponen, with a melody by
Leevi Madetoja. Here you can see a performance of the song by the
vocal group Rajaton: <www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FWGKd87AF0>. Go
to <aglardh.middangeard.org.uk> if you want to see my
commentary on this translation. The only completely "made-up" word in
this is *_sirta-_, which means "make flowing, liquid" (based on SIR-).
Enjoy yourselves!


:Quenya:

Á ilaurië nairi hata,
orta vínë ar intyalë!
Melda meren sín ata yála
rénelinnar antúrë ve.
Manen pollië sí ná ringa,
írë nísat Ringarëo
lauca vilya ar hwesta milya
sirta helci hón ninquëo?

Elen aistana né tintaina
lumbulenna ambaro,
élë fainanes alalanwa,
almarë ilya Atano;
írë hínion tier calta,
nén mirilya ar losta mar,
ara calima alda haira
umë oiala Valimar.

:Finnish:

Arkihuolesi kaikki heitä,
mieles nuorena nousta suo!
Armas joulu jo kutsuu meitä
taasen muistojen suurten luo.
Kylmä voisko nyt olla kellä,
talven säästä kun tuoksahtaa
lämmin leuto ja henkäys hellä,
rinnan jäitä mi liuottaa?

Syttyi siunattu joulutähti
yöhön maailman raskaaseen,
hohde määrätön siitä lähti,
viel' on auvona ihmisten;
kun se loistavi lasten teille,
päilyy järvet ja kukkii haat,
kuusen kirkkahan luona heille
siintää onnelan kaukomaat.

:English:

Throw away your everyday worries,
let your heart rise up while you are young!
Beloved Christmas is already calling us
again to great memories.
Who could be cold now
when from the weather of winter whiffs fragrantly
a warm mild air and a gentle breeze
which dissolves the ices of the chest?

The blessed Christmas star was kindled
in the heavy night of the world,
a boundless sheen went out of it,
it is still the bliss of Men;
when it shines upon the ways of children,
lakes shimmer and pastures bloom,
by the bright spruce to them
loom the far-lands of paradise.


Merin sa haryalye alasse nó vanyalye Ambarello!

Petri Samuel Tikka
www.geocities.com/petristikka/elvish/

> Son of dust, redeemed of Christ my fate lies in his hands

Try something like _Asto yondo [or, Astion], eterúnaina lo Hristo umbarinya
caita máryatse_.

- HKF

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

trilogy9@... skrev:
>
>
>
> Suil Giel,
>
> I noticed this on the elfling website and was wondering if there is any
> chance I could obtain a copy of the music your band, Angaudlinn, which I
> would love to hear?  Pls. let me know.
>
> Blessings and thanks,
> Dianna

I promise to update the list once I have a few tracks of the tracks
recorded and good-sounding. Now there are just simple demo versions.
Thanks for the interest - now I feel the pressure! ;)

While slightly off-topic; I once bought a synthesizer from a guy named
Peregrine - how unreal is that for a Tolkien-inspired band? I've kept
the receipt just to be able to prove it.

--
electronically yours, jesper
- -- --- ---- ----- ---- --- -- -
www.electronic-obsession.se
www.myspace.com/machinepop
- -- --- ---- ----- ---- --- -- -